Best/Worst American Soccer Innovation

Voted for the penalties myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRITqS6WEn0

Other - the weird points system from the first few years

the running clock is something they should definitely do

Unpopular opinion: given the current rules of soccer, golden goal made and makes sense (unless they seriously modify other rules in overtime)

US is a land of innovation.

Letting the ball’s inner experiences decide whether a goal is offside is a huge step forward for object-oriented ontology

— Brooks Otterlake (@i_zzzzzz) July 3, 2026

other - 3 day pause to world cup to let degenerate gamblers fill in brackets

The various 'ProZone' innovations like more points for long-range goals would I'm sure make for an absolutely atrocious sporting spectacle, but I'd nevertheless like to see them in action.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/mar/02/league-1-america-soccer-revolution-never-was

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/0098b5e167f84d74a793ed4d65f84a2cf1782986/394_269_2979_1983/master/2979.jpg?width=1300&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none

instead of just being some third rate league mls should become the crazy league for adopting crazy rules lets have some fun out there guys

basically soccer’s xfl, that makes sense

get some really dumb looking uniforms

That was basically MLS in its infancy

they didnt go far enough

My most extreme and serious suggestion would be to make the soccer pitch smaller. I can almost guarantee you the average American and Canadian would like it more and it would make the game immensely harder and more technical, to the point where people like Harry Kane could never play the sport

listen we gotta have offsides reform folks

Xp all you have to do is watch an NYCFC home game to see how much this sucks. In fact, until relatively recently several MLS clubs played on smaller than regulation fields. The days of KC playing in a minor league baseball park were particularly weird.

The NYCFC thing was a travesty. Everyone smugly said "they have to play on it too" but they get a full season to adapt to it and could build their team around it (two of their biggest stars were 5'9).

Basically just pinball on grass

My most extreme and serious suggestion would be to make the soccer pitch smaller. I can almost guarantee you the average American and Canadian would like it more

This falls under the heading of worst innovations then?

That’s because that league doesn’t have very good players. It requires a lot more technique and it’s overall harder. So yeah, you’re basically saying the players suck, which we already knew that given what league it’s in. But yeah, I don’t know how willing elite players would be willing to switch to it because it would he faster paced

Dearie me

xposr

I mean it's not like MLS is full of amateur league players, the issue is that every team is top heavy due to a salary cap.

We've already seen how many superior World Cup squads struggled to move the ball through congested area against low blocking teams. Imagine training to break that down on a smaller field.

Sure, smaller = less distance to reach the goal, but when you get there it's like sharing a bath tub with the Baldwin family

The NYCFC pitch is also crooked and on a baseball diamond. That pitch is often criticized for things note solely related to pitch size, so I don't think it's a good example

It also depends what dimensions we're talking about. It doesn't necessarily need to be narrower. NYCFC's pitch is 110x70 yards and in an awkward position

A proper soccer pitch that is slightly shorter, but not necessarily narrower could work and could still give players the vertical movement they need. The bathtub example assumes it's both narrower and shorter, which is not what I'm saying

By the way, Craven Cottage is 109x71 yards and doesn't have all the problems NYCFC does

dan m - I hope you feel bad for starting this thread

If the thread was smaller it would be more entertaining.

lmao

The posters aren't skilled enough

I'm assuming lag∞n is just trolling the Europeans. I'm not sure everyone else's excuse.

it's like sharing a bath tub with the Baldwin family

― If your ass is a Bible, 213 will regulate (Neanderthal), Friday, July 3, 2026 10:06 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

???

Cristiano Ronaldo, age 67: "I am big. It's pitches that got small".

dan m - I hope you feel bad for starting this thread

― xyzzzz__, Friday, July 3, 2026 10:25 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well I hope you feel bad for inspiring me to start it!

How about making the field BIGGER and forcing all the players to wear bubbles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7tHkeVR1Ms

that looks so fun, dan

in other words, the british ilxors/statlers would not approve!

I do think it’s funny that soccer fans are very protective of their rules and traditions. no major american sport is like that and that sort of sentiment is generally associated with chuddiness and conservatism

otm

Oh man let me tell you guys about the designated hitter rule since you don't seem to be familiar with baseball

Or how the 3v3 overtime is a favorite of all ice hockey devitees

I do think stuff I made up that isn't true is funny too.

I do think it’s funny that soccer fans are very protective of their rules and traditions. no major american sport is like that and that sort of sentiment is generally associated with chuddiness and conservatism

Yes football hasn't changed at all since 1872.

https://www.scottishsporthistory.com/uploads/3/3/6/0/3360867/498599_orig.jpg

mlb does feel like the most conservative, but kudos to them for implementing quite a bit of changes in recent times

i think fifa are just slow at implementing change and because of how global it is, there are probably more obstacles, the EPL being one of them

Or how the 3v3 overtime is a favorite of all ice hockey devitees

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m), Friday, 3 July 2026 bookmarkflaglink

Watched the US Canada Olympics Hockey final and 3vs3 was so so wrong.

"as someone who posts on the internet, I have unique insight on the British, including other counties which aren't Britain"

Otm xp

You want proper ET and pens. Surprised North Americans want to cut a thing short.

Think of the lost time you could be frying your mins watching ads!!

3v3 is contentious among hockey fans

there's actually a lot of data on 5v5 in OT and i prefer 3v3, though you know, i'm in favor of trying 4v4 tbvh

I'm in favour of 24v24, if only for the laughs.

I don't know if it's particularly American or N. American thing but I should have added artificial turf fields to the poll options, bonus points if those fields have gridiron football lines, lacrosse lines, and other markings on them all at once

dan have you seen the grass in BC place? ridiculous amount of money thrown at that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru91R3naFQY

Yeah, noticed it for the first time during Canada's game against Schweiz iirc

(#saveTheCaps)

Also related, NFL players have recognized that the grass in their stadia is working and are now demanding it in all venues, and good on them for doing so

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49030490/fifa-world-cup-grass-nfl-stadiums-debate-field-surface

On Wednesday, the NFL Players Association posted to social media an image that read: Player Voices Should Shape Their Game from the Ground Up. The word "ground" is designed to look like grass. The second slide on the post showed 92% of its players preferred grass, according to an NFLPA survey.

they should bring back muddy pitches, heavy leather balls that give players concussion, backpasses to the goalie and mandatory floppy moustaches, get rid of red and yellow cards and professional players, and if a knockout game fishishes as a draw they should simply replay it on subsequent weekends until we get a result

I'm in favour of 24v24, if only for the laughs.

― stanes on the knees and blood on the jumber (Tom D.), Friday, 3 July 2026 18:04 (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

in the great American tradition of egalitarianism what we need is an elaborate system of advantages and handicaps so that e.g. France vs San Marino would end up looking something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYFcTWKcuQM

no idea who Emily or Micah are but 👍

https://i.postimg.cc/Zqgqxvx2/Screenshot-20260706-145238-Bluesky.jpg

Our fans are the reason that this Cup, I've refused to attend any watch party involving the American Outlaws or wear the team kit.

It sucks too because those of us who legit watch the sport full time get lumped in with these morons even when we call them out but I'm not about to do a #notallAmericans thing when I'm pretty much miserable living in this country for the same reason everyone else hates us.

Also I keep LOLing at the "Don't you want Americans to like the game" messaging, like...no, the other nations of this world have loved the game for centuries just fine with or without us.

Cosign

The new rationalization I only started seeing this morning is "they rescinded Ronaldo's ban so he could play in the group stage so whatabout that???" and, it's like, that sucks too you absolute doofus

i don't much care what cultural things other people like or don't like but "if you want me to like your thing just completely change into something i like" is prime dumbassery

Oh yeah Dave Portnoy/Barstool wrote one of those in article form, was so cringe.

I'm reading about the CONCACAF Gold Cup now, they have guest teams from different federations, like Australia at Eurovision?! Brazil have been runners-up twice?!

Occasionally. I don't even watch that suck-ass tournament anymore. Mexico and the US have won every tourney but one, and Mexico/US don't always send their A squads due to Nations League.

Which I find way better. Same US/Mexico results, but pro/rel, 2-legged matches, and sprinkled throughout year rather than being a month long.

Think the actual worst innovation wasn't unique to soccer but the salary cap/Designated Players rules.

Orlando City were 2nd in the Supporter's Shield despite having the 2nd lowest payroll. I get that since there's no promotion/relegation, and that fewer Americans care about CONCACAF Champions Cup than Europeans care about Europa/Champions League, but the cap means that most teams have a dreadful back line because teams only want to spend big money on flashy goal creators.

I don't care that the league's play can't compare with Europe. It's its own thing. But I do get annoyed watching attackers shred a backline like Swiss cheese with three pedestrian passes. So many attackers getting free, high quality hits from outside the box because defenders are afraid to come out and engage.

Not to say there aren't good defending teams, just that they're the exception rather than the norm. Otoh, if they lifted the cap, would we see better teams?

Or would teams just poach more aging stars of yore? Felt like they were starting to try and acquire underappreciated talent in their prime but that Messi has everyone wanting to revert to the Retirement League stereotype. (Granted, the LA teams have done that since their beginning)

the actual worst innovation is not doing promotion/relegation

but there isn’t the infrastructure in soccer for it in the US. create a whole ranking system of professional and semi professional teams from scratch it was hard enough to get MLS started.

“you’d have to create a whole ranking system…”

The system where Club A has to pay $500k to Club B if they sign Robert Lewandowski because Club B said they were interested in signing him first is kind of fun.

create a whole ranking system of professional and semi professional teams from scratch it was hard enough to get MLS started.

― Illegal Algae (Boring, Maryland), Monday, July 6, 2026 12:04 PM (fifty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

just need two leagues to start

The reason they don't do promotion/relegation isn't because there aren't enough teams. There are dozens of teams popping up in various cities all over the place, in addition to teams that have existed in various forms for decades and sometimes longer.

The reason is because the billionaires behind MLS don't want their assets to lose value by becoming "minor league" nor do they want competition from poorer but more motivated and potentially more innovative actors that might beat them. MLS is a combo ponzi scheme and place for these people to park their investments and vacuum up sponsor cash.

Xp check out USL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Soccer_League

Tbh it is a little funny to see this discourse on ilx and not BigSoccer where these same debates have been raging for decades

Also Neando totally otm again above

but there isn’t the infrastructure in soccer for it in the US. create a whole ranking system of professional and semi professional teams from scratch it was hard enough to get MLS started.

― Illegal Algae (Boring, Maryland), Monday, July 6, 2026 11:04 AM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

thats by design tho, mls is not going to play with the lower leagues at all. usl to their credit will be (allegedly) doing pro/rel within its own leagues in a couple of seasons. but as long as mls is a single entity system they will never do pro/rel bc owners will not accept it (one of many reasons why mls will continue to be a mediocre league globally).

xxps yeah to dan m

MLS tried to wreck the US Open Cup every couple of years, which is a competition with a history going back over a hundred years akin to the FA cup and other tournaments worldwide. They say it's because the smaller teams have substandard facilities, and this and that, but the real reason is they don't control it, might lose, and don't want to spend time investing in making it good. That's why the Leagues Cup or whatever the fuck they're calling it has come up, because club owners in Mexico are just as greedy and they know fans of those clubs in the US will come out in force to see America or Chivas or Monterrey in a way they won't for Madison, Indianapolis, or Sacramento.

yeah it doesnt bode well for the ascent of the sport in the usa when the most powerful entity hates everything about how the game is played and the business of the sport is conducted elsewhere. much easier to plunk down a big expansion fee, city name fc canva logo creator your way into a new team, then sign a couple of past prime fan favorites while you wait for the next investor to drive up the value of your investment.

The reason is because the billionaires behind MLS don't want their assets to lose value by becoming "minor league" nor do they want competition from poorer but more motivated and potentially more innovative actors that might beat them.

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m), Monday, July 6, 2026 1:05 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

thats right

association football in England had the benefit of organic growth. teams sprouted up in each town, rivalries developed, and eventually promotion and relegation were implemented because the quality between the teams in different towns were too disparate to put everyone in the same leagues. these teams all developed rich history and the rivalries between nearby towns grew passionate over more than a century of play.

the US can't replicate that for a lot of reasons. the oldest active professional teams are only about 30-40 years old (though there is the amateur club Bavarian United and Beadling SC who are much older). There are cities where professional soccer has thrived for years, but the teams have come and gone, mostly because of fledgling leagues having difficulty staying afloat due to incompetence or, more commonly, difficulty competing with other major sports in the country.

England is also 2.5% the size of the US, so teams are more spread apart geographically, and a lot of fans outright haven't been to the cities/states their opponents plays in, which means the nature of each rival is different - it's not a team in a neighboring town that you travel through regularly, it's a team in a state hundreds of miles away you may or may not visit. Intrastate rivalries tend to be the most fiery, like the "Hell is Real" derby w/ Cincinnati and Columbus.

The other thing is that American professional soccer was a shambles around the time MLS started, a lot of the professional leagues were indoor soccer leagues, and the top flight league was the American Professional Soccer League (later the A-League) prior to then (which actually contained earlier incarnations of the Seattle Sounders and Montreal Impact). MLS was only created as a bargain in order to secure the 1994 World Cup, so they never had any real interest in 'connecting' these leagues to each other. I doubt even they expected this league would survive 30+ years. They could have cultivated some interest by offering to promote some of the A-League teams to MLS for its fledgling season, but they chose to go with all new teams (though San Jose Clash had ties to a previous San Jose Earthquakes franchise from NASL days).

They could have perhaps, after getting the growing pains out of the way, looked into ways of creating an open system had they wanted to, but once the league saw a little success and franchises were starting to balloon in value, they became more interested in rapid expansion. it's completely absurd there are 30 teams now - it grew from 10 to 19 teams between 2004 - 2014, and from 19 - 30 since that time. Massive dilution in the quality of the teams, uneven schedules, but also obliterated the idea of ever having promotion/relegation. As m bison said, it'll never happen because owners will never accept going down to a lower league and seeing the revenues plummet.

The concept of promotion/relegation is well understood in other footballing countries and these teams will often still draw great crowds in lower divisions. Americans will treat it like a Major League Baseball team got demoted to AAA and will lose interest. It would help the game, but I just don't see it happening.

what is America?

https://bsky.app/profile/annabower.bsky.social/post/3mpy3nx42ss2q

A country of asshole lawyers at least in part

Anna Bower has been a valuable legal journo in the Trump era, biggest claim to fame exposing Lindsay Halligan in "off-the-record"-gate. she's been a solid opponent of the Trump administration, and she also sued Social Security Administration over violations of FOIA requests related to the SAVE act.

i don't know that I would be wanting to die on the hill she's climbing up right now, but lots of lawyers tend to be the 'well AKSHUALLY' type, which I suspect is somewhat coloring her post. But her work has mostly been pretty exemplary, this issue non-withstanding

(side note, but I do get aggravated when randos respond to experts by confidently saying "nuh uh, you're full of shit" simply because they don't like the message. The better response would be "who cares if it's permissible, it is still an affront to fair play and hasn't been done in this tournament for anybody for red cards earned during this tournament").

Ugh lol what

MLS Discuss Bringing Back NFL-Style Rules From 1990s https://www.si.com/soccer/mls-discuss-bringing-back-nfl-style-rules-from-1990s

Christ, not a 4/1 article either

i dont get mls, they are like lets switch to the european calendar but then theyre like nah lets do some goofy america shit, too many nfl owners in this league

Maybe they think it will prompt three more billionaires to give them $500 million each for franchises

they probably will!

i do kinda wonder if mls just says fuck it and goes for 40 teams and does like a top 20, bottom 20 closed pro-rel system or something

Tillman is getting good at that

usl is starting "usl premier" in a couple years, im kinda skeptical because they want it to be a tier 1 on the us pyramid but wont have the stadium requirements, big pocketed owners, etc. but i do think usl is a critical piece in growing the game outside mls markets (also i guess in other parts of those markets, too). mls owners wanna be nfl with large regional tv appeal but its just not gonna happen, the game is hyperlocal. no one in san antonio for example gives a shit about austin fc, ppl in ft worth dont drive to frisco to watch fc dallas, people in san francisco arent earthquake fans, etc. mls obv really wants big names to draw tv viewers but lack of a local rooting interest and mls being a lesser league lowers the stakes to basically nothing for a lot of potential fans.

Lol rong thred xp

one we can probably all agree on is banning the stutter step penalty kick, you should have to just run up and kick it

Until a few years back that was the rule. Don't really know what happened

could just be fixed overnight

also maybe use a stopwatch to count stoppage time instead of guessing

the timekeeping in soccer is nice just ballpark it who cares

clearly no one!

you must admit its better than nba refs huddling around a monitor to add .5 seconds to the clock in the third quarter

for sure but instead of guessing they could just put the right amount of time no huddling needed

also not to ruffle any feathers but you could just stop the clock for the advertisement/hydration break no one would even be mad

it is funny that they dont even stop it for that, fwiw the refs do have a watch on which they keep the real game time theyre not guessing, the only problem is its not totally clear when they should stop the clock

they're not every good at it is the main thing

yeah they dont care

thats part of the old world charm

All penalty kicks should be taken in the style of Cuauhtemoc Blanco, big direct run up and full blast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSy8KU_uU10

i think the problem with stoppage time is that they put up the 6 minutes or whatever and then there are further stoppages inside that 6 minutes, a lot of it deliberate

the hydration breaks don't help - guaranteed 3 extra minutes

the real problem with timekeeping is because the refs dont stop the clock on minor events like throw ins it encourages time wasting in those situations, they should just stop it whenever the ball isnt in play

One more for the innovation column.

I used to think I couldn’t be swayed by advertising, but this World Cup has given me the urge to buy a barrel of crude oil from Saudi Aramco.

— Boring Milner (@BoringMilner) July 9, 2026

did we ever discuss offside reform? i get why the rule exists but its application in practice is essentially to make sure the most exciting plays of the game don’t count

my suggestion: switch to a rule where if any part of the player is onside, the goal counts. the current rule makes me mad, like if any ball that hits the line in tennis is “out” instead of “in”

the timekeeping in soccer is nice just ballpark it who cares

― lag∞n, Thursday, July 9, 2026 6:48 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

yeah they save their tedious pedantry for determining if a player’s left index finger may or may not have been offside before he scored a bicycle kick goal

xp yeah that would be good, also in situations where the defense is already back theres really no need to have offsides, something like if theres defenders in the box or if the pass originates in the final third of the field offsides doesnt apply

That's the modification Arsene Wenger proposed to offside

If Wenger's for it I'm agin it.

I'm suspicious of it, feels excessively harsh on defences, but nobody's ever going to stop complaining about the offside toes and shit so it is what it is

broadly offside is fine, the perfectly weighted line-breaking pass is a crucial and beautiful part of football, other sports with more basic and high-scoring implementations of the get-it-in-a-net concept are available

id like to see soccer played without it just because im curious, everyone assumes that theyd just boot the ball down field and maybe so but still itd be interesting to see a different version of the game and watch the strategies evolve, which is why mls should do it

why would you ban the stutter penalty, it's nice seeing professional footballers act like idiots to their own disadvantage

MLS has a proud tradition of being the weird guy at the end of the garden cooking up experiments in the shed and I have no objection to them doing that - hockey penalties are cool

maybe FIFA wouldn't kick them out of international football now that the two have a ~special relationship idk

feel like the [lowers sunglasses to look you in the eye] Goalkeeper-dependent Method penalties normally have a much higher success rate than they have at this World Cup, when I see them in progress in league matches I'm normally going "gah this bullshit's actually going to work" and it usually does?

possibly one of the things that is legitimately easier to pull off on a humdrum wet Wednesday in Stoke, vs when FIFA are going to have an immediate slow motion closeup of the bliblibli face you do if you miss

The problem is have w offside is that in years past, the only time anybody ever complained about a call is either the false positive where they weren't off, or a situation where someone was majorly offside by a step or two and it was missed.

Frame by frame tech existed and fans would bitch about calls but none of them ever sat there saying "omg this guy's toe was off. Rigged!"

But once VAR was brought in to resolve the gripes about obvious misses, that level of adjudication came with the territory.

There's already a tolerance level of 5 cm in Premier League, but in FIFA competitions, there's none. I think maybe the tolerance should at least mirror Premier League's

*I have

this tournament also possibly evidence of how even perpetually frightened chancers like Orjan Nyland can have a YOLO run as a zero-fucks Big Personality goalkeeper who has a short but impressive run of storming performances

idk in my experience offside and handball are just two things that football fans will always be deranged about no matter what the laws say

Otm

my suggestion: switch to a rule where if any part of the player is onside, the goal counts. the current rule makes me mad, like if any ball that hits the line in tennis is “out” instead of “in”

― mobb derp (voodoo chili), Friday, July 10, 2026 5:05 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

while I encourage such ideas in the name of lols, this wouldn’t really change anything, just moves an arbitrary boundary forward a few inches. would make more sense to not consider offsides in the box similar to how it is now in the back half of the field, though I’m sure some would be uncomfortable with how much scoring might increase

one thing with penalties that’s obvious too is that they’re too easy to score. now that soccer has entered its bronze age and basic stats like xG exist it’s clear that the value of a penalty kick far exceeds what would have been expected to happen. either move the shot back to the back of the box or let the goalie move past the line once the penalty-taker starts moving. the latter would discourage stutter steps too

It doesn't look too easy to score them in this World Cup.

lol yeah there's something like a 60% conversion rate this Cup, which isn't necessary the weirdest thing, but more that most of the misses weren't saved by keepers either

39/60 this cup which is below historical averages but also just a small sample size thing, and also way higher in terms of expected goals than the player getting fouled would have scored had there not been a foul

I think both keeper and shooter should have equal advantages. the goalkeeper should have a sound effects box that plays fart noises on the kicker's approach, and if the keeper saves the ball, the taker is allowed to tackle the keeper and use a free leg to maneuver the ball in.

at the same time, someone is allowed to punch Joe Hart in the face without legal repercussions until the take is finished

xposts awarding PKs for a foul in the box is less about restoring a near-likely goal and preventing the box from turning into WWE.

if defenders felt like the odds were a lot lower that the taker would convert the PK, they'd regularly maul players in the box if they got beat. or if you narrowed when the foul resulted in a PK (i.e. 'u have to be shooting lolz').

the goalkeeper should have a sound effects box that plays fart noises

and that fart box should be made in a dying industrial midwest city

well that’s what cards are for, also I doubt either of those reforms would even approach the true xG but would still keep it around 50% maybe which seems fairer

let's just change red cards, if you get a red, you are forced to immediately board a plane and play LB for Wolverhampton Wanderers

my suggestion: switch to a rule where if any part of the player is onside, the goal counts. the current rule makes me mad, like if any ball that hits the line in tennis is “out” instead of “in”

― mobb derp (voodoo chili), Friday, July 10, 2026 5:05 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

while I encourage such ideas in the name of lols, this wouldn’t really change anything, just moves an arbitrary boundary forward a few inches.

― k3vin k., Friday, July 10, 2026 2:37 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

imo psychologically itd be better when guys get called offside by var fans could be like he was well offsides indeed, also itd tilt the game a lil bit towards more exciting plays

If I were writing the offside rules I'd go with the "clear air between players" thing but it would still just be moving the line back a bit.

Think people should start out by reading about why the offside rule is in place, and what happens whenever they try removing it.

'clear air between player' requirement means the new offside trap will be the CB farting

offsides dates back to before soccer and rugby were different games its not really there for any reason per se, which isnt to say that the game wouldnt be radically changed by removing it

whenever they try removing it you get goal-hanging, goal-hanging is boring, every goal is a tap-in

cherry pickin gets you beatdown in Sunday leagues

offsides has never been removed for a long enough time or at a high enough level to play out the strategic adjustments that would allow us to reach a conclusion about what its like, three seasons of mls should do the trick tho

MLS is also full of forwards who couldn't score on a net 30 feet tall by 100 feet wide

though we should try that too imo

is saying "offsides" a bit?

its what its called in american sport

https://www.reddit.com/r/usmnt/comments/1uswt66/scenario_on_americas_best_athletes_starting_age/

found this pretty interesting and funny, the thread starter is basiaclly like, if we could just take america's superior athletes with no soccer experience and drop them into elite training programs in europe, whats the oldest they could be to eventually become a top 100 global player, and everyone is like yeah maybe 4 or 5 dude, kids around the world are kicking a ball around constantly and developing their eye-foot coordination. and their response is like, no no no what if LEBRON JAMES and theyre like lebron james would be too big to be a successful player, he would really struggle to keep up with technique. they were really quite insistent that elite training could rapidly catch up the best us athletes and everyone was like nah they just need years of childhood reps with a ball at their feet first.

*trenchant commentary* you know it reminds me of the way athletics is this pay to play scheme in america and that parents believe with the right amount of money and obsessive structured instruction, their kids will become pro (or at least D1) athletes, in a way a fusion of the bootstraps myth (hard work = guaranteed results) and our 'being rich skips you ahead of the line' ethos (i dont need a collective sporting culture to cultivate a child's skills, i just need to privately hire elite coaches to beat the other children) and good old fashioned eugenics ("natural athletes" who should be able to be successful in any capacity, just like rich people think they will be successful at anything they do bc they made a billion dollars and are therefore geniuses). classic individualism v collectivism problem. and thats why soccer in the us will stay stuck for a while with a few exceptional players.

LOL LeBron James, the guy's 6 foot 9! I've never seen a 6 foot 9 footballer.

iverson is the one who shouldve played soccer

the fact that youth travel soccer that maybe 15% of american families can afford is the highest level of youth soccer is one of the huge problems with the american system lol its already rich people paying to get ahead

Saša Kalajdžić of Austrian national team/Wolves is 6'7 (stfu), but he's lean - 198 pounds.

I think the heaviest player to play in Premier League was like 230 pounds, LeBron is usually around 250. He'd never be able to play at that weight unless he was just planning to steamroll over people and pay a ref to let it go

yeah also soccer is tilted so much more towards endurance than the american sports you just dont know how good guys would be with that part, iverson famously was studied by science for his ability to run forever without getting tired tho

i do think there are some tall basketball players who would make interesting goalie prospects tho

Jan Koller, the old Czech centre forward, was 6'8", he's the tallest I've ever seen - including goalkeepers.

It's absolutely awe-inspiring to me because I feel this is one of, if not the hardest sport to master.

Antonio Gates didn't play American football in college before joining the NFL. Just high school. He made the Hall of Fame. Many centers in the NBA didn't start playing until their teens.

But like to be a proper footballer, it's almost like martial arts, a lifelong commitment, and then you have to hope your football intelligence matches your technical skill or you'll be Freddy Adu

outfield players need to run around for 2x 45 mins, without so much as a "hydration break" - is there anything like that in American sports?

nope

Xxpost Like I remember Orlando City signing Colombian forward Carlos Rivas for 1.5 mill in 2015 and marveling at how much more technically gifted he was than the rest of the team, he could take-on most MLS defenders easily, and as soon as he got into the box, he panicked and did either the stupidest shit imaginable, or shot it into the upper deck. So his career never went anywhere

He hasn't been on the team in 8 years, and people still scream RIVAS when someone skies a shot.

Every fucking World Cup the same "wait wait wait what if our best guys played instead" sub-Barstool-ass take comes back around.

The other thing is we are losing players to other countries the same way we snap up other players like Balogun. Gutierrez for Mexico is from the Chicago burbs and played for the US youth setup for years. That kid from Appleton who's been a hero for Bosnia, same thing. Not saying they'd be stars but those are two creative, non-typical athletic types who could challenge for playing time.

what are the stats for miles run by an average basketball pro in a game? you'd get some comparison there with what the average elite footballer does

im sure its much less also basketball players gets tons of breaks

also they play at most 40mins a game, which isnt to say its not physically taxing its just more about quick bursts than endurance

Just trying to imagine what sport a guy like Luka Modric - 5'8" and looking like a gust of wind would blow him over - would be directed towards if he was American.

distance running lol

Chess maybe?

tbf tons of american kids play soccer its the most popular sport for little kids and is still very popular through high school every high school in american has both boys and girls soccer teams but it just generally doesnt have the prestige of the prime american sports

fewer opportunities for concussions, we love our brain trauma

more cardiac incidents in football, though. lots more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_after_on-field_incidents

Every MLS match i go to with an American first time soccer watcher:

"Lol those weenies have training bras"

'Actually that gives the coach biometric readings so he knows when to sub players'

"Lol everyone is diving"

'Uh actually that guy just had his ankle stepped on'

"This ref sucks"

'He's actually doing fine'

"Are you just here to contradict me?"

"Fucker, I don't know you, you just started talking to me"

One of my first timer friends totally fell asleep at a Fire vs Chivas USA game. To be fair, he was hammered on spirytus from the Polish tailgate, and both teams were dogshit, but still. We had really good seats.

Every fucking World Cup the same "wait wait wait what if our best guys played instead" sub-Barstool-ass take comes back around.

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m), Saturday, July 11, 2026 11:00 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

it’s for sure true to an extent but there’s more that goes into it

they’d have to start from a very young age but there’s no reason to think our best athletes wouldn’t be beasts at soccer we beast everything else sorry if this offends

it is pretty funny how it makes people mad though like there’s something genetically superior about being english or norwegian or something lol

same thing has happened in reverse with other sports like basketball for example hasn’t had a USA guy be MVP in 7 years just kind of how it works with the game being globalized and all that

they’d have to start from a very young age but there’s no reason to think our best athletes wouldn’t be beasts at soccer we beast everything else sorry if this offends

― k3vin k., Saturday, July 11, 2026 8:06 PM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

its not offensive its just wrong, i think your dramatically undercounting how much technical skills with feet are not developed in our sporting culture the way throwing, catching, dribbling etc are.

No he might be onto something, just imagine if instead of kicking they just threw the ball into the net from the touchline all gol olympico style

guys i believe kevin is suggesting americans start playing soccer young which is pretty good for developing the skills needed to play soccer

yeah i suppose he did, but as youve mentioned, kids are playing youth soccer in the us. they just arent doing the unorganized freestyle playing in the neighborhood til the streetlights come on and playing at school everyday and dribbling the ball around the house to the same extent that intl peers are. i think its a leaky pipeline at every step.

the level is def generally low, basically americans need to care about soccer more in order to get good

its not offensive its just wrong, i think your dramatically undercounting how much technical skills with feet are not developed in our sporting culture the way throwing, catching, dribbling etc are.

― el cheatcode del apartamento 512 (m bison), Saturday, July 11, 2026 6:54 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

right as I was saying they’d just have to start young and have the right infrastructure which we don’t have now it’s not that complicated actually

the level is def generally low, basically americans need to care about soccer more in order to get good

― lag∞n, Saturday, July 11, 2026 7:07 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

right it just has to be more a part to the national fabric it’s not like it’s some genetic failing or something lol

I know that makes people big mad because actually the traits of soccer are passed down genetically or something but it’s not really like that it’s just that we don’t try as hard

Why do you keep referencing genetics?

Guys let's just think.

What if

....

?

Profit

Make it so

America can obviously produce great athletes. But as this thread has proven, as a country it seems to lack even the basic comprehension of the sports, its rules, its tactics, its history, its character and what makes the sport work. A thousand great footballers and athletes have been undone by greater tactical awareness and team character. I think even if they could turn LeBron into Per Mertesacker, I don’t think the wider scope would come at the same time; so much is learnt from experience. And as the US didn’t even have a league when so many of the rule changes happened in the early 90s, American fans are still like duuurrrr an offsides is bad, let alone trying to apply the genius of Arrigo Sacchi to the modern game.

the real answers are

- saying team "is" and we should genuinely see ilx tenpbans for each instance of this

- the term "flopping"

ito the other discussion i think kev is quite right in that theoretically the potential route towards US generating the right athlete pool with the right skillset to make huge strides is obvious and possible if you started aged 5 and had a real focus on developing the right training for the individual kids towards position/tactics/athleticism

his shortening every argument back to "genetics" isn't worthy of him but it isn't like anyone has addressed the main point, ofc the talent pool is there

it just wont happen, but that's a different argument

i don't know why "flopping" makes me feel so queasy but i hope that y'all can respect that it does and refrain, cheers

other thing is - why not the talent pool in india, or china, or indonesia? usa isn't the only big country that is shit at football.

The talent pool is there but the "obvious" path to better US football requires structural and societal changes so extreme you might as well ask US players to spontaneously grow wings.

other thing is - why not the talent pool in india, or china, or indonesia? usa isn't the only big country that is shit at football.

― Camaraderie at Arms Length, 12 July 2026 10:38 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

in context of huge investment and participation in sporting infrastructure and achievement in team sports played with a ball on a field i guess, if i were to look at it

i know that china and other countries have attempted to break into football at the high level, again it serves as as example to the challenges in any 'program' approach if perhaps the culture isnt there at (literally) street level perhaps

thing is america is good at sports generally so naturally people wonder what itd take to give the ol footie a go

ime the expectations of chinese people towards their national football team are infinitely more stoical and realistic, they are still winning at the olympics

just to clarify the genetics point, I was saying the point is irrelevant rather than the US has some advantage there or something. I can let it rest though as I agree it’s not an important part of the discussion either way

The US is good at women's football.

fwiw soccer has gotten a lot more popular in america i could see it getting there, i dont think itd take the psychotic devotion to the game you see in many countries to start fielding a high level national team and produce wold class players just because america has a lot of people a lot of resources and is a sporting country generally, you just need to get some critical mass of children stoked on it, one thing that would really help is if america produced one great player who was scoring all sorts of goals in europe, people would be very interested in that here, theyre already primed theres enough people who follow the premiere league and whatnot who can explain it to their friends and help them buy scarfs

also out of respect to the britishers I do say “dive”
on the main thread but this is the dumb american thread where “flop” is the more familiar word

who cares mate they mean the same thing in some places people say other words in totally different languages

appreciate the offer to “mate” with you but Im married

u wot

flop is better anyway its more appropriately derisive, diving is cool diving off a high cliff into crystal clear water

do youse have a motion youse make when saying flop tho

because we do ppl make little mouse hands and move them in and out from their chests its good

if youse had a flop motion maybe i could get more into it idk

that is a reasonable point we should work on adopting a hand motion

it’s kind of akin to “flailing”

are we doing "muh american free speech!" now?

because we do ppl make little mouse hands and move them in and out from their chests its good

As demonstrated by Haaland's dad last night.

now that i think about it there is one in the nba which is the official refs signal for a flopping penalty, you extend your arm out palm up then bend it back and forth at the elbow, its not super widely adopted by fans but sometimes players do it when they get called for a foul and they think the defender flopped which is pretty funny cause theyre pretending to be a the ref thereby showing up the ref which is always classic behavior

are we doing "muh american free speech!" now?

― Camaraderie at Arms Length, Sunday, July 12, 2026 8:49 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

were just doing who cares i mean when a briton asks me when the basketball match is i just chuckle a lil cause it is funny but im not like no we dont call it that who cares it means the same thing

What do you call a basketball match?

a basketball game

the name Soccer is an English invention, English people get mad at it because it reminds them of their burning shame at their failure to strangle the mutant piss-drinker sport of "Rugby" in its cradle

that is true

spiralling closer to essential truths itt

but spiralling nonetheless

clusterfuck summary corner or bust

soccer is what the upper class call it, that's why we hate it so much

I think we call it flop because in basketball some players act like a fish to draw foul calls

Spence's attempted manufactured penalty last night looked like the platonic ideal of a diving motion to me at first, but on the replay the way he hooked his marker's leg caused him to properly flop into a faceplant

flopping is for Flairs tho

soccer is what the upper class call it, that's why we hate it so much

― Camaraderie at Arms Length, Sunday, 12 July 2026 14:03 (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I thought that was what I said!

you did and more more eloquently

apparently at the time soccer was introduced to america it was a normal thing to call it and it just stuck

also sees usage in Ireland due to their manifold Footballs

look at me calling us them, grim stuff

The reason soccer had permanence here is because in England they realized they didn't have to call it "association football" anymore because they could just call rugby football rugby.

Meanwhile, in America, they played rugby and then created gridiron football out of it and they didn't just want to abbreviate it "gridiron" so they called it just football.

They predicted within 50 years everyone would be annihilated and nobody would care.

my favorite part about the soccer football discourse is that people are like american football shouldnt even be called that because they hardly ever kick the ball not knowing that all the footballs of the world are named that because theyre sports you play on foot which is the dumbest possible reason i love it

"He's soccer crazy, he's soccer mad"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDRBDX3nt_o

also sees usage in Ireland due to their manifold Footballs

― LookaDjin (Sgt. Biscuits), 12 July 2026 13:16 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

well i must note that this isnt my experience

the ga is the ga and football is football and even ga fellas using football for ga would probably do so in context and not trying to confuse you

We can solve this problem by calling soccer football and football "shartball"

you just have to say each football with the appropriate accent

I actually get annoyed when Americans use proper footie terms because it always seems when they do it, they're awaiting a pat on the back from European fans.

Also when we allow American cornballery to infiltrate we get great shit like the Sounders "FIGHT! AND WIN!" guy

i would never ask for a pat on the back from a european, i want them to feed me pate

also they never wash

when is the next fixture and upon what pitch shall the match be played, fellow glory supporters?

i do find american soccer fans adopting general soccer fan practices like scarves and singing to be a little cringe but ultimately who cares go out there and have fun even you like soccer but not any american sports which is weird but it is what it is

They give us a scarf every year as OG season ticket holders.

The average temp at match time is 85 degrees here, even at 7 pm kick. So thry go unworn

My incredulity re this general discussion is based on 1. It srsly comes up in every navel-gazing post-tournament "what if" analysis for as long as I have been following the US team and 2. In more recent times, MLS and the USSF establishment have been Doing It Right with investment into youth academies at every club that hoover up a lot of local talent across multiple age groups. The oldest of these academies have only been operating for about 20 years.

Some have been more successful than others (check out how many players from the recent roster came out of MLS academies, particularly Philly, Dallas, and NYRB) but there have been improvements across the board, albeit slowly. Most of the best players that have come through the academies went to play at clubs in Europe where the level is higher, but most are/were not more than squad players who were good deals in the transfer market. Pulisic and McKennie are the only ones who have made the jump to bigger clubs and really managed to stick, though I could see Chris Richards leveling up soon too.

I thought this piece by Leander Notgonnaspellhissurname summed up the embarrassment of the home field advantage that they couldn't live up to quite well. I bet it takes another 20 years to see anything like getting to the level of a semifinal.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/jul/09/the-us-delivered-their-best-modern-world-cup-performance-and-also-let-themselves-down

Xps Seattle invented soccer, as the story goes 🤮

Good article. It's basically how i feel

I find the name of Real Salt Lake a bit annoying. Which monarchy is supposed to be their patron?

Mormonism? Idk

yeah thats the worst its not even a soccer thing to call yr team real its just one very famous team

guess they did ask real madrid if it was cool and they said yeah whatever

I've always thought it would be funny if Florida got a third team and named it Galatallahassee

I think the discussion doesn’t understand how difficult it is to make really good players. Pep grew up in La Masia, played under Cryuff, learnt their system inside and out, became Barcelona boss at the height of their homegrown boom, then went to Bayern - the two clubs with the best homegrown players in this century! - and when he went to Man City he had all the money, all the scouting, he took staff from Barcelona and… Phil Foden and Cole Palmer can’t make the England squad.

I just don’t really know how America would then come out with a generation of talents better than that without it being pure dumb luck.

the question isn't "why aren't the usa better at football?" - that's obvious to everyone, the question is "why do people think the usa should be better at football?"

cause we wanna win baby

I was looking for this piece earlier, Tenorio is a good writer and he covered the Fire for a bit so I know he's not completely full of shit.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7427234/2026/07/07/usmnt-world-cup-exit-round-16-belgium/?unlocked_article_code=1.v1A.-zED.mQPUlznnDXJh&source=athletic_user_shared_gift_article_copylink&smid=url-share-ta

Dunno if the gift link works, it came from bsky:

https://bsky.app/profile/paultenorio.bsky.social/post/3mq2tfdi3zs2k

Anyway the important bit is this:

The next part will be harder. American soccer has a tendency to act as if it can simply speak something into existence. That if it talks long enough about potential, it’ll simply turn into progress. Or that if you say you want to be one of the world’s best, and if you repeat it enough times, you’ll simply get there over time.

It doesn’t work that way.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier, there have been so many moments where it's clear a pundit or a coach or a federation president thinks they have the key, or they can describe moneyball success and they keep getting proven wrong.

The results speak for themselves and I think part of it stems from the deserved, awesome success of the women's program, because so few other countries were funding the women's game. When USSF (and colleges, really) found success there I think the money men figured they could just do the same on the men's side and here we are.