David Goyer adapting Asimov's Foundation books for Apple+ (Previously: Jonathan Nolan adapting Asimov's Foundation books for HBO)

HMMMM.

hard to imagine any sci-fi classic that would be more boring to watch onscreen. these books are quite literally action-free.

aren't they mostly about math?

i actually read at least 4 or 5 of them when i was 10 or 11, but i can barely remember anything about them.

i love these books to a ridiculous degree but i don't think they would make particularly good movies.

There's an amazing twist with the Mule at the end of book 2, if i recall, so definitely think this could be compelling.

Well, the original involves empires, and this is HBO, so no doubt they'll find ways to write in intrigue and boobs

they span thousands (millions?) of years, have no central characters... this is a stupid idea

xp

long (reallllly long) expository sections in place of characters interacting

they probably were just like "game of thrones in spaaaaaace" and HBO said go for it. (not that they are really similar, just "beloved book series")

"And what are your credentials?"

"I just cowrote a big space movie with my brother! With emotion! Which I will bring to this adaptation!"

"Uh...okay."

yeah i reread them last year and once the mule enters the picture the whole thing becomes way more gripping. the problem i've always had recommending them to people is that the first book is by far the worst, but asimov was like 21 when he started writing them so watching him gradually become a better writer is fascinating in and of itself. also some surprisingly strong and interesting female characters in the second and third books, along with some of the weirdest and most convoluted plots i can remember in any classic SF stuff.

there is a lot of intrigue, but it's all so divorced from, like, actual humans - the Mule is good but so much of the series is this giant abstraction

the later foundation books are mostly really terrible but iirc the very last one asimov wrote right before he died, about the early life of hari seldon, is pretty good.

j.d. otm that the first three books get better as they go

love love love second foundation so much

don't think they would make good movies, though

pretty much because of what was said upthread re: giant abstraction

"Ars has confirmed not only that Foundation was in development, but it has now been given a full series order—meaning we're definitely going to see it." #AsimovFTW https://t.co/YnzcjTcQZx

— Ars Technica (@arstechnica) August 29, 2018

It’s probably going to look amazing and it’s definitely going to be better than that insipid Star Trek revive that was only watched by people who write nerd tv recaps for their side gig

Discovery was pretty good. Definitely wouldn't call it insipid.

It wasn’t. You should.

Took forever but some actual news (also, on Apple+ TV now):

https://deadline.com/2019/10/foundation-lee-pace-jared-harris-cast-star-in-apple-series-based-on-isaac-asimovs-sci-fi-classic-1202765708/

Lee Pace (Halt and Catch Fire) and Jared Harris (Chernobyl) have been tapped as leads in Foundation, Apple TV+’s upcoming drama series based on Isaac Asimov’s science fiction novel trilogy.

Harris as Seldon, Pace as the Emperor "Brother Day" which...what?

happy 100th, isaac

Y'all saw that a black woman was cast as Salvor Hardin, right? The furious nerd tears are going to be so delicious.

after the racist "joke" Asimov aimed at Samuel Delaney when he won a slew of awards and the repeated, documented sexual harassment and assault Asimov was known to engage in.... good

Love Lee Pace, love Harris, and especially love the books but I can't see this series keeping the spirit of the books while staying watchable

Well we got a sort-of trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg

Hm hm hm, maybe. But per Eliza's post there a few back, all the better that the main figures aren't ALL white dudes...even with Goyer Goyering, though, so we'll see. If anything this seems more like a riff on the core story, and I'm not sure still what the whole 'Brother Day' thing is w/r/t the Empire, especially since there are two other characters called "Brother Dawn" and "Brother Dusk."

My thing is he is somehow the worse Nolan

Looks like that Nolan's not actually involved now, though, just Goyer and others. Should update the subject line.

It’d be nice if Goyer has figured out how to write a single woman by this point

not as in uncoupled, but (1) character who is a woman

That's a claim:

"Foundation" writer and showrunner David Goyer is ambitiously hoping to tell Isaac Asimov's science-fiction story over the course of eighty hours.

Well, anyway, it's almost here. Goyer interview has this bit:

“The book series itself makes these massive leaps forward in time, and particularly the first book is very ontological,” Goyer said. “Very few characters continue from one story to the next. My very first meeting at Apple, I said to them, ‘Guys, time is a character. You’re just going to have to embrace that.’ We do time jumps. We’re going to jump forward. We’re going to jump backwards. Sometimes we’re going to tell two parallel storylines that are operating at different times. We just have to embrace it. It would be insanity not to embrace it. And fortunately, everyone embraced it.”

Which, honestly, I have no problem with -- would actually explain some of the trailers we've seen.

It’d be nice if Goyer has figured out how to write a single woman by this point

Annnnnnd maybe he hasn't but:

“In this case, because Asimov wasn’t alive, I was talking to his estate, to his daughter, and I said, I want to make sure that I’ve identified the core ingredients that make Foundation, Foundation. Fortunately, they said, yeah, we feel like you’ve zeroed in on the most important elements. And because we’re adapting it now, over 70 years after Asimov first wrote it—you know, it was a metaphorical story back in the post-World War II environment—some of the events, some of the things that we’re interrogating, we’re going to have to change because we’re speaking to an audience of today and not an audience post-World War II.”

The first big, important change: diversifying the characters. “Because there are virtually no female characters in the first book, I said to the Asimov estate, ‘How would you how would you feel if we gender-flipped a couple of the characters?’ And they said, ‘We love it. We think Asimov himself would have completely embraced that,’” Goyer said.

Not that that gets him automatic points for trying for any number of reasons, but I guess we'll see.

Asimov well known for completely embracing female convention goers

Ugh

Of the Big Three, I sort only have time for Arthur C. Clarke these days, but would watch this, especially for Jared Harris.

Asimov’s son a piece of work too, but maybe shouldn’t go there.

I remember reading something Fred Pohl said about Asimov’s behavior. Actually I met both of them and for some reason liked Pohl a lot better than Asimov.

Lee Pace says things. Apparently the future is we're all dominated by endless Lee Pace clones, and I fail to see the problem.

https://gizmodo.com/foundations-lee-pace-i-love-science-fiction-1847708416

So this thread then? Albums covers that depict the artists hanging out with their clones

i like this? not terribly fast-moving, but i'm okay with that. not sure i believe the lead actress is 26

lose the voiceovers tho

Saw the first episode and was honestly most intrigued by how they were trying to solve the problem of 'things which everyone now knows from what's come after/ripped it off so how do we do it differently?' eg making Trantor not quite Coruscant, trying to figure out a new way to do faster than light speed, etc. Lee Pace perfectly cast of course.

I was amused by the entire imperial library being smaller than big city central libraries I've known. Though maybe the rest of it goes eight miles deep or something.

Enjoying this so far, I was wondering if the 80 hours idea is for real? I'm only two episodes in and they've gone quite a ways into Asimov's story already.

Well yes and no, in terms of the original stories they’ve essentially only done the very first, the rest is stuff drawn out from the prequels, most of which I’d forgotten about, or wholly invented.

So, at this rate, if the show gets canned at the end of S3 they'll probably have done most of the book series before they start making stuff up.

Perhaps? They're definitely tempting fate a bit with that initial voiceover going all in on naming Hober Mallow and the Mule. The fact that they're leaning into the robot stuff early, again not surprising given the prequel books, but also I think they figured there was more potential for actual drama beyond stories that mostly could be filmed as stage plays with people batting ideas back and forth.

Further elaborating a bit but again I am amused but not surprised at how thoroughly it's repurposing just about everything from a ton of filmed SF of recent years. Inevitable Galactica vibes on this colonist ship, the floating particle stuff reminds me of Krypton from Man of Steel, lots of anime vibes from spaceships in general, etc. etc. Arguably the basic story is just a gloss over the rest. That said, again given the plainness of that basic story stylistically, seeing them tackle questions of design, costume, etc. in particular is of interest since there's no real guide and I've kinda been pleasantly surprised -- it'll be interesting to contrast that against the designs in the new Dune.

i haven't read these books in well over 35 years so looking forward to watching this series without that baggage

Ha, same, pretty much.

I love how poor Lee Pace is any casting director's go-to when a show needs a pompous monologuing douche.

i love how his eyebrows couldn't help but influence the casting of his counterparts

i commented elsewhere - have only watched ep1 but was super irritated/rmde by how hard they were hammering “do u seeeeee” 9/11 parallels. (but i am not a fan of scifi when it tries to overtly refer to current/recent events anyway in general)

it looks amazing though, -and i love the acting, esp love jared harris & lee pace !!

it is intriguing to me how jared harris is actually kind of an ugly man but also compelling/attractive

i think it’s his speaking voice & kind eyes

was super irritated/rmde by how hard they were hammering “do u seeeeee” 9/11 parallels

Yet another Galactica callback as well, I figure (or rather, Caprica)

I think a lot of The Terror fans think Harris is hot.

this really is extremely slow/laid back . . . and i'm okay with it

Yeah, works for me. Also don't mind the time-hopping.

I thought episode 3 might start with Raych getting airlocked into space for murder, but it's fine that they advance the story forward and leave it to your own imagination to fill in the blanks. This is easily the best sci-fi series since The Expanse so far.

Kind of glad I havent read the books but I skimmed the outlines enogh to know the show's not really sticking to them, but yeah I'm enjoying this too. It is visually spectacular.

I haven't got a clue about the books but according to imdb both Dornick (last seen hopelessly floating through an asteroid field in a liquid chamber) and Seldon last seen ... are both featured in 9-10 episodes, so I presume there will be some flashbacking to come or maybe just voiceovers.

Both Dornick and Seldon only feature as living characters in the very first short story, more or less adapted fully in the first episode; Dornick is mentioned briefly in the second story, where Salvor Hardin is introduced, but is implied to have already passed, Seldon being long dead. But since the time structure is indeed all over the place, who knows?

wouldn't be too surprised if 'dornick and seldon are featured in 9-10 episodes' is a red herring just to keep people guessing. although i guess the dornick actress is also our voiceoverer

it would be odd to keep dornick's fate unresolved tho!

maybe quite mischievously they've given a credit to Harris for every time his character's statue is in shot on Terminus.

Today's episode was pretty great -- love the way they're ratcheting things up. (Also are we getting a full Aliens tribute with that last shot there?)

Word went around they've renewed for a second season.

I love the way brother day is such a consistently repeating arrogant arsehole to the point that even when he matures into brother dusk he's still going to blame his older predecessor (himself) for everything that goes wrong! And then every time he's got old enough to learn an iota of humility and wisdom they atomise the fucker into dust.

I do like how they're slowly setting up how 'the system' is all clearly going to screw up and fall apart on their end. One of the middle-run of original Foundation stories has a great emperor character -- not a clone per se and rules alone but definitely stands out some, and is named Cleon of course -- but I can see how some elements already in play will help to shape the portrayal of him down the road.

cleon wears his war wound like a crown

maybe quite mischievously they've given a credit to Harris for every time his character's statue is in shot on Terminus.

just the credits and how many episode he's listed in imdb as being in. I haven't a clue about Apple TV. I get it all from my usenet account.

Ah, I see. Anyway now that Jared Harris is off of this show, mostly, I can go back to seeing what he is up to as I continue to catch up on The Expanse.

unnecessary flashback, and i'm starting to worry that things are so stretched out because they don't have enough story

Yeah the first part flashback was little more than addendum -- could have done that in even a couple of minutes I think -- but excellent build of weird tension throughout. Now that we have the big reveal at the end that answers a few questions at least, more to come.

I gotta give Goyer this much, he may (may) have pulled a Lindelof in getting a good creative team together to actually do something that's more watchable than expected. Depends on how they stick the season landing but halfway through this season, I'm good with it.

Season ending but season landing works!

lol how crap was that imperial ship, just one surface to air shot and it's completely taken out.

"Say Captain there's some big gun pointed our direction."

"Eh whatever."

I want less action

But I thought everybody wanted a piece of the *is stifled*

Fight scene zzzzz, innocents in a settlement being terrorized by soldiers zzzzz, gimme more standing around in very high ceilinged rooms plz

so [redacted] designed his own space coffin and then something happens at the end of this ep. That would be a good way of skipping a few boring decades on Terminus but not so good for his accomplice! Yeah I prefer the long boring bits to the action as well.

Agreed re trying to figure things out on a deserted ship.

less 'action' is fine (and that fight scene was terrible) but this whole sequence with the offworlders -- which is really pretty straight-forward? -- is now going to leak into a fourth episode

we long ago knew which defenders were righteous and which were lame; let us move on to the next stage already

But the invaders have a plan and as we know in serial TV SF when it's stated there's a plan everything is plotted out to the last desire. Anyway there must be some kind of way out of here.

of course! but let's get to it. i don't need a flashback of anacreon being devastated for 20 minutes to establish motive.

btw am i alone in wishing that hari was not being pronounced 'harry'

i'm sure we can all look forward to my similar complaints whenever dune hits the torrentz and i manage to watch it! <3 <3

"Say Captain there's some big gun pointed our direction."

"Eh whatever."

Wasn't the gun what they cloaked earlier in the episode?

Didn't seem clear it was still cloaked by the time it was just 1K away.

It probably makes a good point about decadent colonial powers on the wane. Just fly in there expecting an easy rout and then get taken out by one well aimed shot.

Oh it wasn't clear at all,. I just assumed it must be otherwise what was the point of the whole cloaking scene in the first place xp

Getting pretty Game of Thronesy here

gonna name my next cat 'empire'

A rotating trio of cat

my biological father has had a series of (i think siamese) cats going back decades and named each of them 'mozart'

which is . . . fucking horrific, honestly. but would have certainly made better sense with 'empire'

This show needs a cat emperor.

obviously he should have named the cats duncan idaho

really enjoying the show but the lingering "ok, they've set up several events that are going to happen... maybe in the next episode?" feeling continues because apparently we have more things to go through

Hmm at the ending of this latest one. (I'm...assuming at this point the idea is that Hari set up both the Raven and the Vault so he can chill near Helicon and deliver live updates via the Vault or something. And Gaal like...hibernates in between crises? Guess we'll see!)

saddened that the phrase 'what's your ask' will still be in use 10,000 years from now

On the other hand, good to know that Touch ID will still work after 700 years

oh no my first law of robotics

When “Foundation” Gets the Blockbuster Treatment, Isaac Asimov’s Vision Gets Lost

some points, some misses imo

Two episodes in, I feel like it's a lot of telling rather than showing, just a lot of exposition and CGI backgrounds.

Real 300/Zack Snyder's Owl Movie vibe.

I feel like it's a lot of telling rather than showing

well this is true to Asimov's vision

haha otm

Lol.

Burn...

Martin Skidmore to thread!

idk man

Mm. It's definitely heading towards a 'huh' season ender at this rate.

i haven't been bored (except by the narration), so that's cool. just seems like we're still more or less in the same place we were six episodes ago

Meantime we got this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5CBWy17y70

How does a robot have a religious belief!?

I like this show, but I think I'm glad I never read the books.

Visually, I keep thinking of what someone could do with an Earthsea adaptation (yeah again, I know), with the right casting finally, and stuff like Ged finding the floating city in the ocean and etc.

I'm enjoying this as well. Sometimes some half decent sci-fi shit is just what you need and best avoiding the plethora of hottakes!

well. sucks to be azura

We were saying she'd be better off just jumping into the pond than what lay ahead.

Also, did not see what Demerzel did coming. But maybe its because she too is beginning to go against her nature (same as brother dawn and day seem to have)? I mean shes a robot so that shouldnt be possible, but ...

hmm tried to be vague but is that too spoilery?

appreciated that brother dusk angrily flung the stuff at his painting with his *left* hand, and wonder whether that was done on purpose

anyway, solid finale with some unexpected things -- i look forward to the next season whenever that is

Yeah it's definitely not Asimov's story anymore, broadest of outlines aside. Still, I'll watch. Wondering if the time jump means going straight to Hober Mallow (and thus skipping the thoroughly cynical view of religion in the intervening Seldon crisis).

xp

well spotted there [what was posted in hidden text] probably was on purpose.

Yes, I missed that!

I'm a little confused by the continued presence of somebody I thought Hugo had missed the landing on the Invictus and floated off into space.
I thought it odd when they came back out of the warp over Terminus and he reappeared. Did I see one character in a spacesuit do that and think it was him or was there a further plan being enacted.

Quite enjoying this and wondering how much of it I read. I think I got several of the series from my uncle's collection when he died. Definitely think I got some Dune from him as well as Ed Sanders The Family. Definitely thinking I did get into a few of them at one point. But it is decades ago.

I think Hugo faked his miss/death so he could go for reinforcements

He did. He deliberately flew off so he could sneak back in.

(but yes, all those bits flying about in spacesuits and nothing else and somehow succeeding were redic implausible but I'm bad at willing suspension of disbelief)

i was more bitter about the anacreons surviving the naked jump and then somehow being allowed to take over ships again

fuckin figure it out, thespins

Man, this show. It seems like it has some pretty obvious flaws - lot of telling instead of showing, unevenly paced, some so-so acting - but I loved these 10 episodes. I do think it kind of lacks the spirit of the Asimov books (was very weird to see a robot kill someone!) but keeps the scope and the interesting ideas, and the writers somehow turned that into something very compelling and visually gorgeous. So glad that it's getting another season!

Ya good point about the robot

Tbf, the robot laws never made a lot of sense

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2021 season is nominated in the ILX TV poll, with voting ending this weekend:

ILX's Best Television of 2021 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 31, 2022

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

Sorta slipped past but Season 2 went ahead and filmed earlier this year -- only image released so far is this:

https://dl.moviesr.net/images/dn9sN.jpg

Which, hm. (Flashback to Foundation founding? Some later meetup with another clone?) -- new cast members: Isabella Laughland, Kulvinder Ghir, Mikael Persbrandt, Sandra Yi Sencindiver, Holt McCallany, Ella-Rae Smith, Dimitri Leonidas, Ben Daniels, Rachel House, and Nimrat Kaur.

And per burblings today but which date back a couple of months as well, Season 3 renewed and filming starting in April, so the five season plan may actually happen here.

Per an article back in February, here's who's playing what in Season 2.

(In reading that closely, we're getting some familiar characters from the original stories -- Poly Verisof, Hober Mallow, Bel Riose and 'the Warlord of Kalgan,' who I kinda assume is the one that the Mule ends up defeating -- notably no mention of that character quite yet.)

Show is a drastic remix of the books so I doubt the TV characters will bear much resemblance but I am interested to see how they eventually handle the Mule, one of the few standout characters. I already said it upthread but despite its many flaws I am very excited to watch more Foundation

Given the latitude -- and some of the aspects of the characterization in the first Mule story -- wouldn't be surprised if they do some other kind of hiding-in-plain-sight approach. The mention of the 'Mentallics' in that Deadline piece from February is making me assume that'll be where the Second Foundation element ends up.

Yes I think that approach will get used also. The books don't really translate well into TV but that reveal would

Initial teaser here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGWT-t7AS74

And we got full trailer -- new season starts July 14.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogReJyWgkBU

So per io9 beyond Mr Pace there, just to re-sum up where we're at:

The rest of Foundation’s starring cast includes Jared Harris, Lou Llobell, and Leah Harvey; also returning are Laura Birn, Cassian Bilton and Terrence Mann. Season two brings in even more cast members: Isabella Laughland (Brother Constant), Kulvinder Ghir (Poly Verisof), Ella-Rae Smith (Queen Sareth of Cloud Dominion), Holt McCallany (Warden Jaegger Fount), Rachel House (Tellem Bond), Nimrat Kaur (Yanna Seldon), Ben Daniels (Bel Riose), and Dimitri Leonidas (Hober Mallow).

...KINDA guessing that means the Mule is third season though as I muttered upthread wouldn't be surprised if the character has been drastically redone and will be hiding in plain sight.

Oh and official synopsis:

“More than a century after the season one finale, tension mounts throughout the galaxy in Foundation season two. As the Cleons unravel, a vengeful queen plots to destroy Empire from within. Hari, Gaal, and Salvor discover a colony of Mentalics with psionic abilities that threaten to alter psychohistory itself. The Foundation has entered its religious phase, promulgating the Church of Seldon throughout the Outer Reach and inciting the Second Crisis: war with Empire. The monumental adaptation of Foundation chronicles the stories of four crucial individuals transcending space and time as they overcome deadly crises, shifting loyalties and complicated relationships that will ultimately determine the fate of humanity.”

Phew, well, sure are amping up the space opera here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t0BGkVQMuQ

And one more trailer to go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBHT1oebvDk

All I remember is thinking of the combinatorial explosion of different clone-age actors they had to consider in order to match Lee Pace's eyebrows, but then I remembered they can CG that stuff now. And now I'm thinking how much of the FX budget is reserved for eyebrow continuity.

I re-binged the first season over the last few days in hopes of remembering the complexities and nuances of this show before the new season started. Watching it all, with subtitles, in basically three sessions definitely helped.

The first couple episodes were still tough to wrap my head around without consulting some episode summaries to help me keep track of it all. (If it’s not obvious, I never read the books). The time jumps remained confusing. And even though I understood the concept of the aging Cleons I still had some dissonance and had to keep reminding me that the brother dusk in one episode was brother day in the previous episode.

In any case’s case I settled into it more and more as it went on and by the end the time jumps made sense and Hari repeatedly showing up wasn’t dumb or weird. And now I’m properly primed and ready for s2.

The one thing that still bugged me was that Hari’s mathematical theories supposedly predicted things that would happen at an epic thousand-year scale, and he said repeatedly he couldn’t predict what would happen at an individual level. And yet he was constantly orchestrating hyper-specific things or actions - and the idea that two specific people falling in love had the potential to derail all his predictions. I could never really square this.

if i were trying to placate you, i would suggest that dude predicted at least *someone* would solve his proofs, and that they might well be attracted to someone *else* who at least knew what they were talking about

but yeah it's handwaving

the TV series must create its own drama because the books honestly have very little (and essentially none on a human level)

it's doing a decent enough job so far

Interview with Goyer about things

https://gizmodo.com/foundation-s2-asimov-apple-tv-david-s-goyer-interview-1850596741

Ho ho he make joke:

I told [Demerzel actor] Laura Birn when she joined the show that her character was a slow burn—we don’t get into her interior life that much in season one. And then slowly, we peel back the layers

Anyway, first episode of the new season was pretty good all around, I thought. The show is even more off in its own zone at this point but it did get right what Rings of Power didn't in general in terms of how to loosely adapt something from a source and make it interesting in its own sphere, and the design remains remarkable on several levels. Some spoilery thoughts:

However handwavey it is (and boy is it) getting Gaal, Salvor and Hari together in 'real space' makes for good TV, and Lou Llobell and Leah Harvey in particular make for a good combination of actors playing one of the weirdest dynamics ever set up. If they end up somehow being a combination Greek chorus/narrator across the entire series via a series of convenient hibernations, well, why not. The sense of everything being more fraught and baroque on the Empire end of things was nicely done; the time jump allows for a fully new set of the three Emperors and the unspoken sense of how things are just more fragile and loaded now is clear enough. Also it's nice to see all three actors playing slightly different versions of themselves again (Demerzel as the constant I do want to see a little more of). Smushing details of a slew of stories together -- "The Mayors," "The Merchant Princes," "The General" and given we know Kalgan shows up in some form this season possibly the start of "The Mule" itself -- isn't a bad idea, really. If anything the small hint dropped in the brief Terminus scene that the Seldon cult, explicitly said in the stories to be designed for the off-world rubes, has an actual presence in the society itself is a smart one.

I’m catching up on s2 today. After watching the most recent episode of The Righteous Gemstones, who knew I’d so soon have another naked fight scene to compare! (Gemstones was better and, er, braver.)

I was happy when the Mindhunter actor showed up, but then oh

ha I was trying to remember what I knew him from.

I've never read the books but based on commentary in this thread I'm happy to see that The Mule has showed up. Based on comments further upthread it sounded like that plot point could've been much further off in the series.

As usual this show is still daffy and dense but I'm happy to keep going along with it. I appreciate its ambitions.

https://imgopt03.mrskincdn.com/mrman/blog_resource/000/000/003/084/women_in_love_nude_wrestling-e0ee453e_featured.png?1576764862

"who knew I’d so soon have another naked fight scene to compare! (Gemstones was better and, er, braver.)"

xpost Yeah the Mule showing up even as a future projection/vision accelerates a lot of things. Mikael Persbrandt was already announced as the 'Warlord of Kalgan' but yeah, the Mule, so that makes sense per the original stories. Assuming this isn't some sort of weird headfake and the 'real' Mule isn't more like the character as revealed in the stories, it's a massive revamp -- the Mule in the stories is slight, physically unimposing, hides in plain sight. That's one reason why I figured Persbrandt WASN'T the Mule because he's anything but such a small and seemingly quiet figure in real life, and turning him into a Robert Z'Dar style cyborg executioner from a direct to TV 1990s Sci-Fi Channel movie is, I admit, a choice, but given the revamping of so much else about the story I'm just rolling with it. The show continues to look remarkable at the least.

I do think it's kind of a smart move to have introduced both Riose and Mallow by name but we haven't seen either yet.

suddenly we're swearing a lot

Well it's later in time, they teach those words in primary school now.

And anyway we get Hober and Bel at last. I was amused at how a key plot point of "The Traders" was delivered and then completely undercut.

I'm on board with most of this show except I still find all the plot logic around Hari Seldon's character to be really tough to swallow. It switches between complex/arbitrary at the drop of a hat. At one point Gaal says "pychohistory is not omniscient!" and Hari simply replies "It is now!" Like OK writers, thanks for trying.

It's probably the most handwavey part of it all. Though arguably the more Asimov himself wrote about psychohistory the more handwavey THAT got.

Not a bad ep this week but def felt like they were moving the pieces on the chessboard.

ben daniels is the most intriguing actor in this show and they’re not doing enough with him

also everything on this mentalist planet is corny af

also also can robots nullify the three laws if they commit to holding their arms that way for millennia on end or what

ben daniels is the most intriguing actor in this show and they’re not doing enough with him

Would agree.

Yesterday's episode: best of the season, especially with the mask-off on the mentalist planet. Ends on just the right note. It's seriously Good TV all around.

Did I miss the scene that explained how Salvor didn’t die in the last episode and was instead moved to a pit prison? Seemed like they just ignored their own plotting.

Otherwise agree this was good episode that felt like it was building toward the climax.

the bad woman is putting visions in peoples’s heads (including ours)

not entirely sure why she bothered, tho

I lol’d at Hari having an epiphany about the second Foundation and conveniently summarizing major plot arcs which the writers clearly know are hard to follow.

wau

definitely wau

i apologize for having ever suggested that things don't actually happen too much in this series

did hari seldon really compensate for the gravometric effect of lee pace's eyebrows tho

I like this show but damn do I want to punch Lee Pace's big sweaty face so bad.

that final shot of the newest episode might have been the first time I’d agree

some real viewer-teasing going on here by just dumping everything they’d foreshadowed in one episode

Rather. Intrigued to see where/how this exactly resolves.

idk man

love a demerzel showcase but magicking everyone on terminus back to life is lame af. while still killing the two (three?) most interesting characters! also the whole side quest on ignis was essentially pointless imo

hoping mikael persbrandt survives until series three in 2025 i guess

While I liked it more than you did, yeah I was kinda pissed to lose Leah Harvey in particular. (I kept half guessing that the young kid was going to BE the Mule later on, but I guess that's not happening!) Also unless the whole idea is to change around the future timeline and shorten things -- which, why not, the whole idea of the Mule is that he's the unforeseen chaos factor and here the series has been basically setting him up as a threat for almost the whole season -- seems like we'd lose Isabella Laughland's character as well by default, which sucks. I was amused by Vault TARDIS Emergency Vehicle but I had to figure there was going to be some sort of save -- part of me almost wonders if they're going to go Cylon Homeworld somehow -- and until the episode was far enough along I kept wondering if Hari had stuffed Day into a pocket universe of some sort while in the Vault. As for the Ignis sideplot, I kept waiting for some sort of info dump that basically confirmed whatshername old Empress was a robot and that Hari was dumped into a robot body of his own. I suppose that could still happen? But hm either way. My own minor nit was Sareth and Dawn flying off and me going "But the Empire doesn't have small jumpships so how far do they think they're going to get."

Persbrandt's great casting and I kinda appreciate they're just ditching the whole 'who is the Mule' thing in favor of just introducing a straight up jacked Terminatorish fascist asshole, but I would have been amused to see him introduced in a scene capering on the beach busking while wearing a clown outfit or whatever.

One other thing, looking back a couple of weeks: I appreciated how the Salvor/Hari-on-Terminus conversation essentially implied that the latter is outside of conventional time, since he only knows to call Hober Mallow precisely because Salvor tells him to, and thus explains the name appearing on the vault in delightful cursive a few episodes prior. But I'm beginning to wonder if that was just a weird one-off instead of an actually interesting plot device.

Non-spoiler since it addresses several bits from the season: My assumption that the brief inter-Hari communication was a sign that were partially viewing multiple points in time now, if not separate timelines that are entangled via the prime radiant. There’s a bunch of very fast travel throughout space and cryosleep so there’s no reason we couldn’t have one Hari far ahead of another.

Anyway, couple of Goyer interviews out there about it all, spoilers obv

https://www.tvguide.com/news/foundation-season-2-finale-david-s-goyer/

This bit isn't a spoiler but does maybe indicate that if the strikes get resolved we might get season 3 on schedule, more or less:

We've written Season 3 — because we have to write these seasons sometimes years in advance — and as wild as Season 2 has gotten, in many ways it's only prelude for Season 3. Season 3 will get even wilder.

And this, well, if you guys can actually pull it off, god love ya:

We have the broad strokes of (Season) 4 all mapped out. We know where all the major characters wind up at the end of (Season) 4. It doesn't mean we might not shimmy along the way. We have some very broad strokes for how some of the subsequent seasons would map out. I don't know how many seasons I'm going to get and I don't want to leave the audience hanging, so we're building a satisfying offramp that can be achieved at the end (Season) 4 and another one at the end of (Season) 6, and the ultimate one at the end of (Season) 8.

Really enjoyed S10, but the mule is corny as f

^that's me in the future obv, E10

This show has gotten to the point where, when Hari and Gaal explain how Hari didn’t die a few episodes back, I just roll my eyes and say “okay, Foundation,” and we just move on.

Goyer’s gotten a little better with a team of writers working for him but he’s definitely a sucker for the plot cliche where it’s revealed someone actually disarmed the threatening bomb three episodes ago, you just didn’t see that

It’s kinda funny to follow up watching Foundation with Mrs Davis (which I’m currently doing)—two shows that do a lot of hand-wavey plot explication, but where Foundation is stone faced and serious, it’s basically the punchline of Mrs Davis.

I just finished bingeing both seasons over the last week and I honestly still don’t know if I actually like this show. A lot of the acting isn’t great. And there’s a couple of things that are personally very nails-on-chalkboard to me, e.g. Gaal’s accent (sorry to any SA ilxors but that accent is just ugh to my ears), and Sareth’s posture/body language/facial movements (I keep thinking an alien is about to burst out of her). Also Dawn and Day pronounce it Demerzel and Dusk sounds like he’s saying Demrezel. Dusk looks like he’s wearing poorly fitted dentures.

Demerzel is probably my favorite character.

And how did everyone get into the vault in time? The Invictus was beating down on everyone, miles away from the vault.

I have my suspicions that they’re “in the vault” kind of how Hari is in the vault

I think Brother Constant might have been my favorite character of the season. Just great work playing against a variety of different characters. And how did I not realize until now that her name (well, not her real name) is a riff on Brother Dawn/Brother Dusk/Brother Day. sheesh.

Yeah Isabella Laughland is kinda my 'how did I not know about her before' discovery of the season.

I enjoyed this season more than season two but it definitely had some moments where I was like “ok just ride the wave, just ride the wave”.

Do the books explain how psychohistory/the prime radiant actually work? Because iirc the show doesn’t explain anything. Like, I’m down for believing mathematics can predict a lot of stuff about the progress of civilization but the explicitness of psychohistory - even with the caveat that it can’t predict individual action, only mass population action - is a little tougher for me to buy. Also how did he get his hands on all the tech for the creation of the vault and the prime radiant?? He was obviously being surveilled by the Imperium for a long time. And how is the Invictus tech - 700 yrs old - not so completely out of date?

Also also also did I miss something or is it still not clear who was really responsible for the bombing of the star bridge?

xp this was season two. stop posting from the future

Like, I’m down for believing mathematics can predict a lot of stuff about the progress of civilization but the explicitness of psychohistory - even with the caveat that it can’t predict individual action, only mass population action - is a little tougher for me to buy.

It still bugs me that they keep saying that about specific individuals yet Hari keeps zeroing in on “outliers” whose specific actions derail his plans.

iirc In the books Psychohistory predicted everything basically right up until the Mule arrived, and that was because he was a mutant? The show already has a planet full of mutants.

I've been wondering how the books and series compare, anyone care to summarize the differences?

the major difference is that the books were actually collections of short stories, and each story was set in a different time had no characters from the previous stories, other than H.Selden's hologram.

they took a few ideas from the books (psychohistory, crises, mentalics, Foundation spreading influence through different ways like religion and trade) and character names and basically made up a brand new story/characters from it. the best thing by far about the books is the ideas, not Asimov's writing or characters or stories, so they're taking the right approach. loved season 2 btw, might be my favorite show running now

Yeah by essentially leaning into space opera more than the actual stories did (and matching that with some really impressive sense of design and how technology could work), they cracked a code very well.

Speaking of space opera, that last episode battle reminded me a lot of that uh more popular space opera

i kinda disagree - some of the "best ideas" of the books seem like they were imported without retaining the most interesting parts. the Mule, for instance (though i am certain there's a "twist" planned there, i love the way Asimov chose to tell his story: as a kid i was genuinely flabbergasted by it.) or Seldon's simulacrum; I always thought there was a profound lesson in the programmed piece of software that increasingly grows out of sync with reality. best laid plans...

but then i'm among that minority that despises the slow shift of all television into action film

No I actually agree with you re: the Mule and was a little disappointed myself. Not every change they've made has been for the better, certainly.
But they've taken a different introduction to the Mule and I'll stay open to what they do with that story. In general, I think the books get better as they go and could be adapted to TV with less changes, but they've committed to the remix approach that lets them keep some actors/locations from season to season, which is its own thing and might have been necessary from a budget or sellability standpoint

While we're on the subject, another change I'm not crazy about is Seldon's direct involvement in so many events, the "thumb on the scale" as they describe it, which imo goes against the spirit of psychohistory. May have preferred them to give Seldon a reduced role as he has in the books if Jared Harris wasn't such a captivating actor

Heh I think we're saying the same thing about Seldon

ya - they were right to draw out the theme of the books of whether history is a story of individual actors or of movements, but mostly that theme feels like lip-service: by focusing so much on Seldon, Salvor, Day, etc, it kind of eliminates the question. it's boring imo to experience history as the psychodrama of a few immortal action heroes.

Nice interview with Goyer on the season

https://decider.com/2023/10/25/foundation-david-s-goyer-interview/

Hey, we got good news:

https://www.apple.com/tv-pr/news/2023/12/apple-tv-renews-global-hit-epic-sci-fi-saga-foundation-for-season-three/

I’d have been extremely irritated if they didn’t!

We got Preem Palver

Meantime, hmm, but guess we'll see what results.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/foundation-david-s-goyer-steps-down-showrunner-season-3-1235834630/

This is the part that I'm actually concerned about the most: given the general excellence of the visual effects in combination with the design, it would hurt if that was cut back some.

Sources say Goyer and executives at the show’s production company, Skydance, clashed over the budget for the upcoming season. TV budgets are under scrutiny across the industry as streamers right-size their slates with an eye toward boosting profitability.

Yeah losing Goyer as well as budget is a pretty bad sign. Visual effects are a big part of the show's appeal

Looks like we get season 3 trailer tomorrow…

And here we go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMCpnEi4k0

Looks like those budget concerns we talked about previously aren't as much of one now! And boy are we getting big space opera beats with this one.

Plus an official description of the season, which I will spoiler-proof for those wanting to go in cold:

“Set 152 years after the events of season two, the Foundation has become increasingly established far beyond its humble beginnings while the Cleonic Dynasty’s Empire has dwindled. As both of these galactic powers forge an uneasy alliance, a threat to the entire galaxy appears in the fearsome form of a warlord known as ‘The Mule’ whose sights are set on ruling the universe by use of physical and military force, as well as mind control. It’s anyone’s guess who will win, who will lose, who will live and who will die as Hari Seldon, Gaal Dornick, the Cleons, and Demerzel play a potentially deadly game of intergalactic chess.”

New cast members: Cherry Jones, Brandon P. Bell, Synnøve Karlsen, Cody Fern, Tómas Lemarquis, Alexander Siddig, and Troy Kotsur, plus Pilou Asbæk as the Mule, which is a recast from Mikael Persbrandt in the couple of brief scenes from last season.

Anyway, as always, please enjoy some Lee Pace:

https://gizmodo.com/app/uploads/2025/05/Foundation_302_LeePace-1.jpg

Exciting! Now weighing whether or not to do a rewatch of the first two seasons before this starts. I rewatched s1 before s2 and it really helped.

I've gathered that season 4 has already got a commitment, though it will be the first without Goyer as full showrunner. And the new showrunner was the one behind Fear the Walking Dead? Hm.

Nice trailer. yes, doesn't seem like they skimped on budget here

Hell yeah to this, for sure. It's like the opposite of _Andor_ in terms of gritty sf vs. space opera and both goddamn work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C53xEOdxz70

Hmm, interesting bit from Goyer here re: where things might go next.

“I don’t want to give away too much, but I will say that moving from season three to season four is the first time we do not jump forward centuries,” Goyer said of Foundation. (The show’s third season does indeed pick up 152 years after season two, as the season two finale had promised.) “So in a way, one might think of season three and season four as one sort of 20-episode season.”

(To my mind this all makes sense since they're already bringing in Preem Palver as a character and while everything's been generally loose as an adaptation, this all feels like an extended mashup of the Mule/Second Foundation stories at play -- and you might as well have a cliffhanger or two, as those stories allowed for. If he's still thinking eight seasons as a whole somehow, presumably Foundation's Edge for five? Maybe?)

Wow, I can’t imagine a show of this expense and narrative density is going to last 8 seasons

Well it might not! Goyer has been quoted as saying that was his goal, but that he had 'off ramp' ideas for two, four and six seasons if they faced the ax at those points. The fourth season hasn't been officially announced yet but it sounds like he's pretty confident there, and if that turns out to be the final one, I might not entirely mind since the feeling is almost like that would indirectly cover the original three books/collections. (Edge and Foundation and Earth are...things.)

And off and running with the first episode of the new season. Really enjoy how each season allows for a combination of resetting things with the actors continuing through and introducing a clutch of solid new casting choices, especially the unfamiliar-to-me ones (but it's great seeing Alexander Siddiq in anything), as well as setting the parameters anew re what names and characters are kept but how the overall situation is revamped. (Pretty hilarious how the whole Mule/clown thing is set up and then immediately settled.) Also kinda awesome getting both a quick Ralph Ineson cameo and then later in the episode his daughter Rebecca turns out to have a continuing role in the season. Plus, damn, still looks absolutely fantastic in terms of design, effects, etc.

Goyer is also involved in Murderbot. I wonder if the two shows share sets or anything like that.

If they’re both filmed in Prague…?

The birthplace of the robot

iirc murderbot is filmed in toronto

Just caught up with the first episode. Such a good looking show and great to get to spend more time in this universe with these characters.

I wish I’d done a rewatch of s2 just to remember some of the finer details. But yeah I’m very happy to be back in this world. This show doesn’t always work but I appreciate its ambition. It has a whole vibe that is very much its own thing, not aesthetically indebted to any particular predecessor show or film.

I kinda like how Gaal wasn't really there at all for the first episode beyond the v.o. and the very last moment -- just a handy setting of the stage.

Last couple of episodes have been VERY interesting in terms of building out 'now' from the past few years in the show's timeline. I also have a bit of a theory, and this gets deep into "I've known the stories now for over forty years" territory so stay away unless that describes you as well:

So as noted earlier: it seemed like we had dispensed with the whole Mule/jester deal in the initial episode, and the whole setup even from last season is that the Mule is meant to be this terrifying warlord figure. Further, we've had enough scenes now with the Mule pulling the mindgames and things that, okay, that must be him. But THEN in last week's episode we've got good ol' Magnifico Giganticus separately rocking his visi-sonor -- I rather liked that setup -- and the whole 'the Mule treats me bad' and Bayta ends up taking him along vibes all from the original story. So now I'm wondering what kind of threaded needle they're setting up for both the people who haven't read the books and those who have and already know the answer there, because what's happening in the stories doesn't QUITE seem like the answer they're doing here. My big guess is the 'Mule' of the series is somehow a total headfake and M.G. is using him as cover somehow, but that's going to require a lot more explanations as we go. Which they might be able to pull off! Alternately the production could be trying to hoodwink everybody and M.G. is just more of a willing follower to the 'real' Mule acting as if he's a put upon servant so he can help the Mule fuck over people more effectively. We'll see!

I am still baffled by the selective specificity of Seldon’s psychohistory. I love the overall scope of the show but whenever he says things like “you weren’t supposed to survive” or whatever—predicting down to the fate of a specific individual—it shakes me out of the show.

agreed

i've only watched the first two of s03, but i find the show gorgeous and basically nonsensical. psychohistory could not possibly have accounted for the mule, nor could gaal have been prepared to meet the aftermath

they're completely making shit up as they go along imo

which i'm not necessarily against -- they left the text behind years ago -- but i'm unimpressed with the replacement

the show went off a cliff for me when Gaal started having mystical visions, but whatever it's still pretty good.

I'm only two eps in as well, but I'm really enjoying the wtf-ness of it all. Lee Pace as a shirtless brooding stoner is great. And I'm really loving Euron Greyjoy's take on The Mule, his scenes have been brutal. Also loved the speeder bike shadow chase, feels like the production values went up a bit this season.

I'd figured we'd have heard something more about that version of Dawn who escaped at the end of last season. I thought he would have fathered a non-clone bloodline that would have claim to the throne, setting off civil wars in the empire. But maybe the clones are sterile?

Could be!

This latest episode today was really good -- extremely tense ending!

enjoying this! very good episode

Yeah, ramped up the soap part of space opera just enough but made it work. Also I'm now dimly seeing more how they can hold to certain key beats from the original stories if they choose to, but I'm still waiting for things to play out to be sure. These last two episodes will be kinda insane.

the hologram Seldon stuck with the first Foundation doing his “oh, that’s excellent. also, what exactly is ‘the Mule’?” bit from last week had me laughing

Season finale tomorrow and we got season 4 incoming:

https://gizmodo.com/foundation-will-return-for-season-4-2000657700

How well this will work without Goyer, guess we'll see.

Omg next episode is the finale?? It doesn’t feel like we’re ready for the climax

Oh it's very much a cliffhanger of some sort, Goyer indicated that a long while back. Basically that things wouldn't be as (relatively) neat as the previous two season enders were.

(I also noticed in looking through some of the PR stuff when the season dropped, interviews and that, that pretty much press had access to all of the season *except* the last episode. So they're intentionally driving a bit of hype here. I have a couple of half guesses but we'll see what happens; as it stands my particular guess in my hidden comment on July 31st still holds true and is in fact being quietly bolstered as the season has gone on. My podcast cohost Jared hasn't read the stories -- he just got a copy of the original Foundation itself, not the full trilogy -- so his perspective on these admittedly heavily reworked scenarios has been interesting and in particular he's made some guesses as to the Mule that haven't hit the actual mark of where the stories themselves went, so I'll be both interested to see what happens tomorrow as well as what he thinks -- whatever it turns out to be!)

And looking waaaay back upthread:

So, at this rate, if the show gets canned at the end of S3 they'll probably have done most of the book series before they start making stuff up.

As it stands, S4 will I'm guessing essentially cover what's left of the original trilogy-as-such, so not far off. No idea if Goyer's original eight season plan (if you will) will hold, depending, but whatever wild riffs they want to do with Edge and ...and Earth, hey, especially since that they've finally made it explicit in the show that Demerzel is Daneel, straight from the prequel books.

Whew, okay, that was WILD -- they absolutely pulled off a real headfake re the Mule! And then on top of that we both lose Demerzel/Daneel AND at the very very end reveal that a key beat from the end of Foundation and Earth which as written does have Daneel is now in play! Man I am here for the continuing madness.

This Goyer interview has a lot more re decisions made and where the future may go.

This was great, tight, dramatic. DuskDarkness' very destructive remote control! Day :( Demerzel survives in robot skull form?

Fun finale. Questions/observations:

—does this mean Lee Pace is no longer in the show??

—I think Demerzel could still come back since her head/skull remained intact

—I didn’t like the Mule fake out at all. I’d have to go back and rewatch the season to see if they really laid that groundwork but it felt really forced and unearned.

Combining responses:

In re Laura Birn and Lee Pace, do read that Goyer interview, as he addresses both, cagily but without absolute clarity either. As for the Mule fakeout, this interview with Synnove Karlsen (ie the actress that plays Bayta) I thought raised some good points as to how they and she specifically tried to convey things: https://gizmodo.com/foundation-star-synnove-karlsen-walks-us-through-that-jaw-dropping-finale-2000656636 -- I did notice that she always seemed a little more on the ball than Torie and well, there was a reason!

I’d have to rewatch the season to decide if the twist was earned, but it didn’t feel like it was.

Wild finale with quite a few shocks.

Also thought the Mule twist felt a bit unearned but man, Dusk really broke bad in the final two episodes. And fairly sure they could concoct some cloning shenanigans for Pace to continue

I saw it mentioned in an interview or something, but re: groovypanda's last point

Apparently what was apparently a robot in shadow in that last scene was voiced by Pace? We also have a Day that is still with the Mule, right? He couldn't stand up from the bed and was left in there.

I keep reading this thread as David Groyper ...

Another enjoyable season, though I liked the two previous seasons more. Kind of ridiculous to say given how little Asimov develops his characters but I think the books did a better job with Magnifico, Bayta, and Ebling Mis, who we barely get a sense of in this show. The twist did feel unearned and specifically meant to troll us book readers, though I did read a Goyer interview where he mentions some clues that I missed. As usual, the Dawn/Day/Dusk storylines were the highlight, particularly Dusk's. A very fitting end to their legacy. Lee Pace celebrated that the show is getting another season, so I guess that means he'll be in it? Certainly hope so, he elevates the show a lot

the 1973 radio four adaptation (which i enjoyed on first broadcast)* is here: https://www.scifimike.com/sf-radio-foundation.html

in conclusion everyone in space is posh**

*i was 12 and went on to read the books which i imagine i quite liked but never reread) (bcz by then i was older than 12)
**sfx (sound and music) is im guessing the radiophonic workshop, tremendous boop-bleepy work from them

i continue to watch the TV show mainly for how it looks (alien worlds aplenty 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽)

but i think this is the SLOWEST drama i ever ploughed thru: "the narrative spans centuries ppl, let's make the viewer really FEEL that, every conversation an aeon"

also the ruling family never change and despite being evil they are the three most boring ppl in galactic history

Banality of evil doncha know

I dunno, Lee Pace hams it up plenty enough! But yeah Pitt the Younger whatever his name was, was a bit wet.