Nine dead in shooting by white gunman at historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting.html

surveillance photo of suspect: http://i.imgur.com/UmWyeHz.jpg

history of violence against black churches:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/thugs-and-terrorists-have-plagued-black-churches-for-generations/396212/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/18/for-charlestons-emanuel-a-m-e-church-one-of-the-oldest-in-america-shooting-is-another-painful-chapter-in-long-history/

(Charleston Police Chief Gregory) Mullen said the suspect was a "younger white male between 21 and 25 years of age, 5 foot 9 in height" and "has a very distinctive sweatshirt that has markings."

A female survivor told family members that the gunman sat down briefly before standing up and opening fire Wednesday night, Dot Scott, president of the local branch of the NAACP, told The Post and Courier newspaper in Charleston. The gunman reportedly told the woman he was letting her live to tell everyone else what happened, Scott told the paper.

The suspect was seen leaving the church in a black four-door sedan, the flier says. "The vehicle you will see has a very distinctive front license plate," Mullen added.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-shooting-police-call-help-catch-gunman-loose-n377546

"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go," Johnson said the survivor recalled.

state senator reverend clementa pinckney among the victims

http://i.imgur.com/91qXhBA.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/live/updates-on-charleston-church-shooting/pastor-was-an-influential-figure-from-the-start/

shots fired into a memphis church just now: http://www.wsfa.com/story/29350533/shots-fired-into-church-on-pendleton-street

what the fuck

suspect confirmed as 'dylann storm roof', 21 http://www.wistv.com/story/29351540/charleston-shooting-suspect-from-columbia-area

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-06-16/opinion/op-15599_1_separate-black-churches

^ published in 1996

His uncle recognized him, said for his 21st birthday in April he'd been given a gun as a present.

you can't make this up - SC newspaper has gun ad obscuring headline

http://i.imgur.com/dJteYLr.jpg

abysmal real names, abysmal acts

the terrifying thing is that this is just the tip of the racism iceberg, the breakout violence fostered by entire cultures of hatred

http://i.imgur.com/3eTGYe6.jpg

flags on his jacket are rhodesia and apartheid south africa

https://twitter.com/HayesBrown/status/611536413830426624

Yeahhhhhhhhh, that's probably the guy they're looking for.

even that britpop hairdo looks evil.

disgruntled bowlcut

Repeal the 2nd amendment

http://i.imgur.com/xQTyCik.png

sounds like this guy would be more up for repealing the 13th

Fuck me.

xxp could be he got 2 african flags on his jacket after all

I feel a lot of inarticulable anger and sadness about all of this but that tweet made me so angry my vision literally went red. Which is probably my blood pressure. God damn this shit.

not really sure this is needed, bananaman begins

ok.

that tweet reminds me of that fucking insane delawarean who catfished me last year, it's as much a gun lobby thing as a racism thing (although it's both)

the emanuel AME church has a donation button on its website:

http://emanuelamechurch.org/

thanks for that

Repeal the 2nd amendment

― Οὖτις, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:31 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am 100% w/ you and feel desperate, sad, angry, and perhaps most horribly not surprised at yet another instance in the utterly depressing regularity of mass shootings and racist violence in the US but i do know better than to expect any meaningful legislative change from any mass shooting. if 20 children shot at sandy hook fails to result in gun legislation i don't see how this would, there is going be a million pieces of shit, as usual, trying to diminish this horrible incident and ignore 1) its part in the wider pattern of gun violence in the US and 2) its part in the history of white supremacy and terrorism

That Cuomo twit shouldn't be taken out of context. Most of his tweets have been defending reporting this as a hate crime, which just indicates how awful his reader comments must be.

you're right in that he's a twit

http://i.imgur.com/w96wTVx.jpg

better view of the license plate on the front of his car

guy totally has a Reddit account, right?

Yikes, what a sight.

like half of america has a reddit account xp

I'd love to see some soul searching in South Carolina (and elsewhere), with people finally taking off the vanity licence plates and patches.

A major reason I'm estranged from my mother is her Confederate reenactor boyfriend, who besides being a sociopath had all this hateful Confederate paraphenalia about.

That Cuomo twit shouldn't be taken out of context. Most of his tweets have been defending reporting this as a hate crime, which just indicates how awful his reader comments must be.

― We'd like to conduct a wobulator test here (Sanpaku), Thursday, June 18, 2015 2:50 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I thought of that, and that means people doing every kind of mental gymnastics possible to convince themselves that this guy wasn't white.

I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry this keeps happening. I'm so sorry for my friends. I don't know what to do.

guy totally on facebook i bet

That's kind of making this about me, which is not a thing to do. xp

People like to say the Confederate flag stands for "Heritage Not Hate." So I guess this is a heritage crime.

he is - daily beast did a pretty awful story about his account which i'm not gonna link here xp

re: reevaluating the fetishization of the Confederacy and guns, I actually do know one formerly very pro gun person who, after Sandy Hook, was like you know what fuck it, and got rid of her guns (except a hunting rifle because let's not get ridiculous). But I know a lot more people who, when faced with this kind of situation, just dig in even deeper.

Come on humans. We can do better than this.

from the NYT:

Sylvia Johnson, a cousin of Mr. Pinckney, told NBC News that she had spoken with a survivor of the shooting who told her the gunman reloaded five times. The survivor, she said, told her that the gunman had entered the church and asked for the pastor. Then he sat next to Mr. Pinckney during the Bible study before opening fire.

“I have to do it,” the gunman was quoted as saying. “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

I really hope they bring this asshole in a live and don't give him the pleasure of offing himself.

our country

and this fucking terrorist is a confederacy fetishist. his country died in flames 150 years ago.

I really hope they bring this asshole in a live and don't give him the pleasure of offing himself.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, June 18, 2015 11:12 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

chances are high as he's white

murderer in dis guys, could he not be wite

Hope he is the only white guy in the courtroom tbh

hearing reports that he's been arrested?

i do know better than to expect any meaningful legislative change from any mass shooting

yeah I don't expect it either, but I feel compelled to reiterate the extremist stance when it comes to the 2nd Amendment because a) nobody says it and b) the NRA has an all-or-nothing agenda (that they are remarkably successful at) and the best way to counter that is for the opposition to adopt an all-or-nothing position as well. The NRA's going to say "liberals want to take away your guns" no matter how weak any proposed regulation is, so we might as well own it imo - after all, repealing the 2nd Amendment would be the optimal outcome, and we shouldn't be ashamed to argue for it.

take away all guns
throw them in a lead lined box and sink it to the bottom of the ocean
put them in a rocket and fire it at the sun

p much

Someone on my FB wall pointed out that the flag patches on Roof's jacket are of South Africa and what was formerly known as Rhodesia.

ok yea that makes sense to me xp outic

Basically fuck anyone solipsistic enough to value their right to own guns over everyone else's right to walk down the street/to school/into a fucking place of worship without fear for their lives.

#BREAKING: Law enforcement source tells News19 Charleston church shooting suspect arrested in Shelby, NC

Yeah, that's upthread, Alfred.

(Yes, two more failures/losers, so much for white supremacy.

like all the "gun control" organizations that I'm familiar with all go out of their way to argue for limited goals - restrictions on sales, on where guns are legal to be carried etc. - but I think this is the wrong approach. Set higher goals, push the debate to be between two genuine poles rather than concede that there is some reason for an inalienable right to gun ownership. Don't concede shit! Specifically call out the NRA as the enemy and argue against their reason for being. Yes this is divisive - but *this is how the NRA won*. Conservatives are great at co-opting liberal tactics, here's a case where we should copy theirs.

xxp

Someone on my FB wall pointed out that the flag patches on Roof's jacket are of South Africa and what was formerly known as Rhodesia.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, June 18, 2015 11:22 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

you could read the thread, alfred

As has been pointed out to me already.

Potus addresses incident @ 11:45 https://www.whitehouse.gov/live

jamelle bouie: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/06/emanuel_ame_church_has_long_history_of_resistance_to_racism_the_charleston.html

Charles Pierce:

What happened in a Charleston church on Wednesday night is a lot of things, but one thing it's not is "unspeakable." We should speak of it often. We should speak of it loudly. We should speak of it as terrorism, which is what it was. We should speak of it as racial violence, which is what it was.

We should speak of it as an attack on history, which it was. This was the church founded by Denmark Vesey, who planned a slave revolt in 1822. Vesey was convicted in a secret trial in which many of the witnesses testified after being tortured. After they hung him, a mob burned down the church he built. His sons rebuilt it. On Wednesday night, someone turned it into a slaughter pen.

We should speak of it as an assault on the idea of a political commonwealth, which is what it was. And we should speak of it as one more example of all of these, another link in a bloody chain of events that reaches all the way back to African wharves and Southern docks. It is not an isolated incident, not if you consider history as something alive that can live and breathe and bleed. We should speak of all these things. What happened in that church was a lot of things, but unspeakable is not one of them.

Not to think about these things is to betray the dead. Not to speak of these things is to dishonor them. Let Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina, look out her window at the flag of treason that is flown proudly at her state capitol and think about these things, and speak of them, before she pronounces herself so puzzled at how something like this could happen in South Carolina, the home office of American sedition.

this whole thing is so disgusting

but yeah with shakey on repealing the 2nd amendment

obviously we'll never fully be able to control internal white terrorism like this but not having the country flooded w/guns would be a start to mitigating its impact

I really hope they bring this asshole in a live and don't give him the pleasure of offing himself.

Never seemed the type for that tbh.

Yup ban guns. Repeal the 2nd amendment. We've never tried it. Let's try it.

I have gone from generally anti-gun to moderate "live and let live" re guns in my lifetime (raised by hunters/gun nuts) but in the past ten years or so I've become pretty radically anti guns. Nobody needs them. You don't need them. They are dangerous. Just stop.

Take a look at this inbred moron btw

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/1187A/production/_83720817_ec72579e-1b75-424c-961b-b0adf3d52a62.jpg

p much.

the idea that a "well armed populace" could actually resist the US military also a total fantasy/fallacy at this point

xxp

Potus addresses incident @ 11:45 https://www.whitehouse.gov/live

― rip van wanko, Thursday, June 18, 2015 11:34 AM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Man, every time someone posts a link to the president addressing something, I find myself sitting here half an hour later with one earbud in and nothing playing in it.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a page of civil rights martyrs: http://www.splcenter.org/civil-rights-memorial/civil-rights-martyrs.

It lists 41 people killed from 1955 to 1968. So the death toll last night is equal to almost a quarter of all people killed during the civil rights movement.

POTUS feed finally showing some activity.

Oh, we've finally gotten to the pre-president paper shuffling and throat clearing portion of the broadcast.

Obama must be tired of doing this by now

joe biden looking like grumpy cat

Remarkable tidbit: The suspect apparently sat in the pews at the Emanuel AME bible study for an hour before opening fire.

holy shit – Biden's falling apart

POTUS has been reading the thread, at least.

Wow. Obama sounds impressive, tired, and sad.

Is this streaming?

Yes. Just ended.

reassuring to hear impatient, loveless reference to the american people hesitant to start thinking about gun violence

A little facile, perhaps, but the White House twitter is interesting as regards the points it takes from the speech: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse

his gun violence statement was pretty pointed. "this doesn't happen in other developed countries." xxp yes

usually when american people hesitant to start thinking about gun violence start thinking about gun violence their first thought is "man, I need more guns"

Right? "If the pastor was armed, this wouldn't have happened."

xp to myself IE nothing about the racism angles - he said he was constrained by due process, could this be a matter where how the shooter did what he did (IE shoot) is less bound than why?

Which of course overlooks what we do to black men who carry guns, or things that look like guns, like wallets or cell phones or nothing.

sorry, more bound.

his gun violence statement was pretty pointed. "this doesn't happen in other developed countries." xxp yes

― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, June 18, 2015 12:31 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

advanced countries.

Right? "If the pastor was armed, this wouldn't have happened."

I've already seen that comment a couple times.

Jesus packed a 12-gauge

I think they're going to replay the POTUS address on this stream soon.

There's a link on the twitter now.

advanced countries.

― how's life, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:34 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oops, ty

Yup, we've hit point in any horrific media event when the on-air assholes can now safely target the president instead of trying to just kill time.

Puns not intended, probably.

Right? "If the pastor was armed, this wouldn't have happened."

I'm not going to post a youtube of a satirical comedy show on this thread but google "gungregation" to see what Chris Morris was up to in 1997.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hsgif90ivw

mythology of guns in america is so juvenile

I hope there's no editing or politicizing there by the clip uploader, Michael Savage - I only caught the title.

Obama was utterly mealymouthed on guns in his campaigns. His words do not interest me.

Obama was utterly mealymouthed on guns in his campaigns. His words do not interest me.

yes we know

Not now, Morbs. Please.

reassuring to hear impatient, loveless reference to the american people hesitant to start thinking about gun violence

― tender is the late-night daypart (schlump), Thursday, June 18, 2015 4:30 PM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think this is the 12983719847937 request for a national dialogue on both guns and race

obama also leads a pretty violent military...maybe the whole leading by example thing could help in some way....

Confederate flag still flying high over the SC capitol?

not now, scott, or ever

"let's be clear - gun violence bad; drones, torture & domestic spying not so bad"

Obama must be tired of doing this by now

― Οὖτις, Thursday, 18 June 2015 16:21 (2 hours ago) Permalink

i appreciate all the 2nd amendment sentiment in this thread but let's not forget that this act is also an expression of white supremacy

one of the victims was a librarian: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150618/PC16/150619385/librarian-cynthia-hurd-dedicated-her-life-to-books-educating-others

this act is also an expression of white supremacy

of course. which is harder to express w out a gun

c'mon shakes

what

let's take this offline. ilxmail me if you want

http://cordjefferson.tumblr.com/post/121847112478/imagine-being-so-married-to-your-narrative-that

roommate knew about his plans for half a year: http://abcnews.go.com/US/charleston-shooting-closer-alleged-gunman-dylann-roof/story?id=31865375

thanks for the heads up, dalton

Dylann Roof, the alleged gunman authorities say is responsible for killing nine people in a predominantly black Charleston, South Carolina, church Wednesday night, had been “planning something like that for six months,” according to his roommate.

Dalton Tyler, who said he has known Roof for seven months to one year, said he saw the white, 21-year-old suspect just last week.

“He was big into segregation and other stuff,” Tyler said. “He said he wanted to start a civil war. He said he was going to do something like that and then kill himself.”

too much of a coward to pull off that last part of the plan i guess

he was arrested in NC, so he was on his way north, not home.

big into segregation and other stuff

Like it was a fucking hobby

christ

How to not be an ally ffs

what world is a person living in when they're not only apparently indifferent to their roommate telling them that, but also cool with telling the press this in a matter of fact way?

not to take this into a pithy music nerd direction and trivialize the terrorism and tragedy, but rocking those apartheid flags are about 1 degree away from dij/boyd rice fandom which we all have friends that are into that shit and we all make excuses for them "they aren't really racist they just like the imagery!" etc etc so i just want to say fuck that and it's time we stop giving this shit a pass like dylan's friends did.

The most ominous thing to me in that story is the suggestion that his parents would not let him take the gun out of the house. Like they knew there was reason not to.

we all have friends that are into that shit and we all make excuses for them

o rly

ok sorry i know youre a magical exception.

how could you ever give a friend a pass on that shit tho

yeah I don't think I'm that magical

if it was kind of common for you and the white goobers you hang out with to say shit like that?

xp

yeah while i too am delighted to note that i don't have any fascist friends, i do appreciate that trying to paint this as the result of some 'other' white people as a group distinct from we normal white people isn't a good way to do things (#notallwhitepeople). but some things are just so baffling and alien it's hard not to ask what the fuck

http://i.imgur.com/Qngp2Ro.png

WSJ already going with the 'lone wolf' narrative

Lone wolf involved in groups!

"Fell off the grid" seems to mean something different to some people, a definition that includes "told people his plans for the last half year"

Liked "emo" music

Twitter users who said they went to high school with Roof remembered him as a "punk rocker" who liked emo music.

He became a loner by joining racist groups

Makes sense

"fell off the grid" "live with roommate whom he told his plans to 6 months before the shooting"

a stable middle class family that gives their disturbed son prone to racist rants a gun

"hmmm you seem upset. here's a firearm!"

Said Governor Haley: “When hate happens, we come together, and that’s what we’ll do. So right now we grieve. And then we’ll heal. And when we heal, we end up stronger than we started.”

after horrific things like this the usual meaningless b.s. from politicans and other public figures seems even more grotesque than usual. wtf does this mean?

first of all, who are "we", in her mind?

And when we heal, we end up stronger than we started.

I assume she means "better armed" here

I assume it means "able to accept an even worse incident without changing anything."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/take-down-the-confederate-flag-now/396290/

Take down the flag. Take it down now.

Put it in a museum. Inscribe beneath it the years 1861-2015. Move forward. Abandon this charlatanism. Drive out this cult of death and chains. Save your lovely souls. Move forward. Do it now.

Trying not to be snarky but what really stands out in that WSJ sub-head is the implicit expectation that there would usually be a contradiction between growing up in 'a stable, middle class family' and 'espousing disturbing racist views'.

Every S.C. Statehouse Flag Is at Half Staff--Except the Confederate One

otm, there's nothing contradictory at all about those two statements xp

we all have friends that are into that shit and we all make excuses for them

I have friends?

sorry inappropriate timing

http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/charleston-church-shooting-victims/

that's agonizing to read. all these compassionate, giving adults with histories and families and large networks of friends and colleagues -- killed in a few seconds by some dumb kid who lived in his own mind.

this is why we shouldn't have guns; nobody like that should have that much power over others.

I don't even like it when a cool popular dude kills a weirdo tbh

I'm still o_O over the Wall Street journal's bundle of contradictions

speeding to other a perpetrator that bares significant resemblance to their primary demo so that said readers don't have to face the hard truths the mirror offers. not surprised it is a clusterfuck

it's smart business really, need to keep those folks happy and buying newspapers and satisfied that their distance from this is somehow more significant than it is

I'm not buying "stable, middle class" with that middle name.

would assume the middle name is a personal amendment. ever heard of st0rmfr0- *brick comes thru window*

That websites as old as the assailant (1994), so the idiot dad who gave him the pistol would have to be an 'early adopter'. I've always assumed the etymological lineage of the term owed to Sturmtruppen (from 1917).

it's interesting how an event like this occurs and media try to do the whole lone-wolf thing, as if that puts dangerous racists in a tiny little box separate from the rest of us white people.

it seems to me that what really exposes racism in the US is not as much the actual act of this one man but more so the reactions of every other white person, i.e. ppl trying so hard to make this NOT about race that it clearly shows it really IS about race.

that's agonizing to read. all these compassionate, giving adults with histories and families and large networks of friends and colleagues -- killed in a few seconds by some dumb kid who lived in his own mind.

this is why we shouldn't have guns; nobody like that should have that much power over others.

― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, June 18, 2015 11:26 PM (Yesterday)

this says it all, imo.

The same people who, if its a middle eastern person, will FALL OVER THEMSELVES to make it about race :| xpost

about 1 degree away from dij/boyd rice fandom which we all have friends that are into that shit and we all make excuses for them "they aren't really racist they just like the imagery!" etc

yeah :/

Eh, I think DiJ may not be kidding when he says he's not racist, but the disingenuousness of DiJ and fans in pretending there isn't also a hardcore racist fan element is bullshit. People flirt with hateful imagery for all sorts of reasons; I don't have a hell of a lot of understanding of people who go for it in the long haul. Like, say, the State of South Carolina and its flag.

I knew there were emo Nazis around.

Funny how you can guess exactly what this guy is about just from his pictures.

As far as his "friend" giving him a pass, this Roof guy might not be sharing everything with his acquaintances.

Soon enough we will find out what he does online. Like what is the emo-racist community like?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/06/the_deadly_history_of_they_re_raping_our_women_racists_have_long_defended.html

about 1 degree away from dij/boyd rice fandom which we all have friends that are into that shit and we all make excuses for them "they aren't really racist they just like the imagery!" etc

yeah :/

― sarahell, Friday, June 19, 2015 4:40 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/06/18/charleston-racism-and-the-myth-of-tolerant-millennials/?hpid=z3

The danger in invoking the myth of the presupposed racial tolerance of millennials (and subsequent generations) is that it works to absolve today’s society of actively confronting and undoing the damage of the legacy of slavery, segregation and institutionalized racism.

This is otm, and it didn't start with the millennials. When I learned civil rights history in the 1980s -- talking about events that had happened just 20 or 30 years earlier -- it was presented as fait accompli. Things were bad, then some good people made them right. The end. This very comfortable story was easy for kids in mostly white schools to accept. There was no evidence to the contrary in our little suburbs. We all silently congratulated ourselves on our acceptance of our few black friends and classmates.

This is why I made a point of talking about Charleston with my kids last night. At 10 and 7 they can both already quote from "I have a dream," but I want them to be very aware that racism is an active, powerful and ongoing force. I don't want them growing up thinking of it as a problem solved.

where are the passionate arguments that black South Carolinians should all have more guns and carry them daily? i had thought that was the default solution for this sort of thing

he's confessed: http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/index.html

One of the officials said that Roof, who is white, told investigators that he wanted to start a race war.

xp Fox News did float the argument that pastors should all have guns, but stopped short of actively encouraging black people to arm themselves. (One of my friends on arming pastors: "Easter sermon: If Jesus had had a gun, none of us would be here.")

been hearing a lot of "guns aren't the problem, you can use a knife or just drive your car into a crowd of people if you want to go on a spree" lately, jesus

but stopped short of actively encouraging black people to arm themselves.

That would mean they'd have to admit that there was a racial aspect to these shootings.

God those evil motherfuckers saying "Attack on Faith"

The president of the NRA also floated that argument, plus some other horrifically offense suggestions - http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/nra-board-member-blames-charleston-shooting-deaths-on-pastors-vote-against-guns-in-churches/

Jesus fuck. I can't read any more of this shit.

ugh otm

where are the passionate arguments that black South Carolinians should all have more guns and carry them daily? i had thought that was the default solution for this sort of thing

― transparent play for gifs (Tracer Hand)

I can recommend a couple of right wing comment sections.

The danger in invoking the myth of the presupposed racial tolerance of millennials (and subsequent generations) is that it works to absolve today’s society of actively confronting and undoing the damage of the legacy of slavery, segregation and institutionalized racism.

Thank you. Anyone can grandstand on Twitter about how much they feel for black people, or post pretentiously composed thoughts to impress their sensitive friends - it won't change the fact that some among us were nurtured in segregated environments, that some had parents or grandparents who were openly bigoted. Those who come from such backgrounds should spend more of their precious energy making up for the damage instead of speaking up just NOW. Also people shouldn't indulge this transparent whiteness in their friends or acquaintances.

If Everybody Had Guns, some of those nine might have already been killed: a black person with a gun? "Better git him fore he gits meee!" Which is what Roof prob would have thought, while visiting the church. NBC News site is reporting that he told police, "Everybody there was so nice, he almost didn't go through with it." But if he saw that They all had guns (or that the pastor did), might have happened even sooner. Also, If Everybody Had Guns, the average marksman prob wouldn't be that accurate, and more, guns, more chance of random death in crossfire.
What If Everybody Had Kevlar Too? Cheating, right? Haven't heard any Guns guys discussing that.

Oh yeah, NBC finished that with, " but he said he had to carry out his mission." Self-assigned, or---?

all of the pro-gun arguments are morally and logically bankrupt. even the people making the arguments probably know that at some level. who wants to live in a world where everyone carries a gun all the time? nobody. not really. that's like some mad max shit: a fantasy.

i think a good thing to focus on now is taking the fucking confederate flag down from the capitol building.

http://www.theonion.com/article/national-dialogue-dusted-50697

"we’ll be careful to return the conversation to storage for safekeeping once we’re done with it in about a week or so."

WSJ already going with the 'lone wolf' narrative

― 龜, Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was pointed out to me the other day that the phrase 'lone wolf' was actually coined by the founder of a white power group to describe the way members should 'travel in packs' for "political education," but work as 'lone wolves' when carrying out violent "political acts"

It doesn't seem like blocking traffic and having mass demos until the Stars and Bars are down from the state bldgs would be tough to get going.

yeah, gun control is worth fighting for but it will be a long, exhaustive fight. the confederate flag should come down today.

shoot it down imo

"soak it in heroin and i'll suck it"

Demonstrations are nice but try inundating local congressmen's inboxes and voice mails first.

Wouldn't help, and re that Atlantic link, can't help remembering they also ran a pro-gun piece right after Sandy Hook. (on Howie Kurtz's old Sunday morning CNN press review slot, somebody objected, and was told it was too soon to talk about gun control, but not too soon for the Atlantic piece, of course).
So Roof's dad bought him the .45 (used in this crime) for his birthday, as his uncle just confirmed. The underage Colombine shooters had an older friend who bought some of their guns (others via family members). The Sandy Hook shooter's mother bought guns for him and tried to bond on the shooting range. Ditto the the American Sniper dude, who meant to practice gun therapy on/with his war-traumatized fellow veteran. Gun culture.

it was pointed out to me the other day that the phrase 'lone wolf' was actually coined by the founder of a white power group

source?

God, the "mentally ill" thing is really creeping up on me today with how awful and ridiculous it is. Offensive to people struggling with mental illness obviously. (I assume most or all people bringing up this "mental illness" line themselves do not consciously struggle with any such thing.) But even in the fantasy world where "mental illness" means "they just magically go off the rocker one day and do something crazy, basically at random! With no reason!" -- it's like... this little bastard did not think he was Napoleon, he did not walk out into the town square clucking like a chicken, or whatever else it is people seem to think mental illness is. He left his house one day and went to murder black people, with race being his stated agenda item.

So, uh, where'd his "mental illness" get that? Doesn't it kind of ring alarm bells that the guy lives in a world where in addition to easily gaining access to deadly weapons, he also has access to an endless sea of discourse and imagery and other people that would nurture and echo and deepen his hatred? So yes, for starters he lives in a state whose emblem declares any number of things, at the very least: around here, the opinions of black people, who would like this taken down, do not matter. Even without getting into the longer history of it, that's the message of flying the fucking thing, that's the reason why other people fight to make sure that flag stays up there - it's not pride in "heritage," or if it is it's about controlling who gets to define "heritage." It's sending a message about who's boss. And clearly that message gets heard.

So then this kid gets online I'm guessing -- gets on message boards, or for fuck's sake, just reads the comments thread under any news story dealing in any way with a black person, let alone the spree of horrifying stories that have finally started getting regular coverage after Ferguson. Or say when he first starts out the comments threads are too hardcore for him, well, the anchors on Fox and the local newspaper editorials are plenty ready to provide justifications for every murderous cop and every George Zimmerman, til he starts to build up the nugget of the idea that he can kill black people and be defended, be hailed as a hero, become a martyr for a cause. But he'll find the message boards eventually, or a group of local like-minded assholes, or roommates who will laugh at his comments and treat them as normal, and someone to take a photo of him scowling and wearing racist emblems and pumping himself up as a tough guy, and ultimately, I'm assuming, a bunch of other people thinking the same shit and egging each other on. And all of these are steeped in a general racist discourse which they express more openly on their little fringe, but which is omnipresent in various little ways that provide entry points: the flag, the news anchor, the "just kidding - but you know I'm right!" guy at a party.

So at what point is this "mental illness"? At what point would recognizing a "mental illness" have been even remotely helpful in stopping this? It starts to look a lot like a really convenient way to not deal with the fact that all of the above are present in society and available to little hateful bastards, "mentally ill" or no. And to not do anything about it. I know none of this is an original thought but god, it's so shamelessly evasive.

there's this thing about how this kid should be called a terrorist but i don't think most americans who do horrible things to other americans are called terrorists, are they? i don't remember a case anyway. even the boston bombers were called bombers. usually just bombers or shooters. or snipers. or gunmen.

Doc, do you mind if I use that response elsewhere? That's terrific.

man, people don't wait ten minutes to start composing their think pieces, do they?

there's surely political hay to be made of this, and i'm the first one to note that it's yet another occasion to remind people of our insane gun laws, but... i wish more of these think pieces would keep in mind that while this incident no doubt relates to--or derives from--a number of currents in society, it's still a very very rare event. it's possible this "says something" about millennials, but if so i think that "something" would need to be accompanied by an acknowledgment that it's not as though every month--or even every year--or even every decade--we witness a racist spree killing such as this one.

this all reminds me of steven pinker's argument about violence in the world -- that all in all we live in a much safer world than the one our ancestors lived in (that is, if you can set aside the imminent civilizational threat of global warming) -- but the pervasiveness of mass media makes it /seem/ as though it's uniquely violent.

none of this is to diminish the horror of this event, or to silence those who would suggest (probably in vain, alas) that it calls for a rethinking of gun laws, or a reflection on the continuity of racist belief. but i would be hesitant to draw generalizations from whatever we learn of the young man who did this.

this isn't in response to any one post or link on this thread, more a response to the general ecology of internet media...

man, people don't wait ten minutes to start composing their think pieces, do they?

Wait too long, someone else is gonna get that hundred bucks.

imo amateurist otm (e.g. re caution in general with generalizing/ extrapolating to large groups based on horrific crimes by individuals)

doctor casino thank you for your very on-point post xps

Alfred - thank you, and no I don't mind, although IMO it is just a bunch of kinda emotional/not thought out stuff I typed out in a hurry.

there's this thing about how this kid should be called a terrorist but i don't think most americans who do horrible things to other americans are called terrorists, are they? i don't remember a case anyway. even the boston bombers were called bombers. usually just bombers or shooters. or snipers. or gunmen.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/16/boston-marathon-bomber-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-could-be-1st-terrorist-executed-in-us/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/back-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-path-terrorist-infamy-article-1.1754751
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boston-marathon-bomber-trial-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-is-a-terrorist-who-should-be-sentenced-to-death-prosecutors-tells-jury-10248295.html

it's a big country and these things might not happen every day, but still pretty scary numbers when you look at them. it's only june!

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

yea the tsarnaev brothers were most definitely called terrorists immediately

scott, yes, gun violence is an every day thing -- although spree killings like this one are not

in any event that's why i suggested that one obvious conclusion to draw from this, as from nearly every other instance of gun violence, is that we need to change our gun laws

beyond that, i'd be wary of rushing to conclusions based on something so atypical

it was pointed out to me the other day that the phrase 'lone wolf' was actually coined by the founder of a white power group

source?

Wiki sez:

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the term "lone wolf" was popularized by white supremacists Alex Curtis and Tom Metzger in the 1990s.

Which may be the case but the phrase "lone wolf" has been around since 1900 according to dictionary.com, so they didn't coin it.

A hundred bucks?? Now it's for exposure, most often.
I propose a law: "If you buy a gun for somebody who uses it while committing a crime, you in a heap o' trouble."

dow, as long as guns are legal to buy, you couldn't really make buying them illegal -- unless you buy them for or give them to something you who /know/ is going to commit a crime, something that is /already/ a crime.

I can't remember how Timothy McVeigh was characterized, or whether there were different words used before and after it became apparent that the person in question was a (white) American citizen.

gah, so many typos

i just mean you can't make it illegal to buy a gun for someone who commits a crime if it's legal to buy guns! if you give a gun to someone and you know they intend to use it in a crime, well that's already a crime under existing law.

this really is the saddest quote on earth:

"The man suspected of massacring nine black worshipers at their Bible study in a Charleston church Wednesday told police he "almost didn't go through with it because everyone was so nice to him,"

xpost You're probably discussing a different situation so forgive me - but Roof bought his own gun, correct? (With birthday money whose use nobody asked him about, apparently.)

source?

― am0n, Friday, June 19, 2015 2:47 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One of the most influential aspects of Metzger's right-wing ideology and activism has been his advocacy of the “lone wolf” or “leaderless resistance” model of extremism, which favors individual or small-cell underground activity, as opposed to above-ground membership organizations.

According to the lone wolf model, individuals and small cells leave behind the fewest clues for law enforcement authorities, decreasing the chances that activists will end up getting caught. Specific guidelines to which lone wolves are urged to adhere include: act alone and leave no evidence; do not commit robbery to obtain operating funds; act silently and anonymously; do not deface your body with identifiable tattoos; understand that you are expendable; and whatever happens, do not grovel.

http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/tom-metzger/ideology.html?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=7

And he passed a background check. That's why I've decided to stop compromising and call for full confiscation of all guns.

someone whose goal is to "start a race war" can prob appropriately be termed a terrorist

but not sure to what extent term requires context of systematic/ group movement of related acts

2011 norway attacks by anders breivik described in wikipedia as "two sequential lone wolf terrorist attacks"

xp Doc, I think the gun was given to him, but could be wrong. But the other examples are correct.
re the law I propose, the idea is to make customers/gifters think think very hard. "But that's not fair!" "Life ain't fair, son. A lost cause, I know, but I'm the BizarroWorldJohnWayne.
(Although---basis could be in laws re accessories to capital crimmes, buying liquor for/selling it to people who are underage, and/or getting extremely inebriated thereby, who then commit crimes, etc???)

The gifter could still just buy the thing, no sweat there, but it would have to be registered, info would be automatically added to a database (not just whenever you get around to it, re the guns sold to Gabby Giffords et al shooter), access to which by law enforcement would not be fucked with, as happens now re some state legislatures and Congress. And if the recipient committed a crime with it, and it's hey presto traced back to purchaser, well then.

"because everyone was so nice to him"

The way the better instincts of humans are strangled by their inherited "cultural" idiocies could be the deadliest tragedy of the species. God, you fucked up.

Jon Stewart pretty solid on this, can't embed but this link should work:

https://www.facebook.com/116687955016786/videos/1027868420565397

without looking at it we all agree with everything jon stewart says. but what are we gonna do about guns in america?

Confusingly, some news sources say he was "given" a gun for his birthday, others (e.g. CNN) have the "birthday money" story. Either way I think I'm with Alfred.

yea the tsarnaev brothers were most definitely called terrorists immediately

I think bombers get called terrorists pretty quickly, unless they're abortion clinic bombers. white men with guns are granted, by media narratives, a sort of default complexity -- their motivations are assumed to be mysterious and in need of unpacking

can the federal government change gun laws in each state?

but if so i think that "something" would need to be accompanied by an acknowledgment that it's not as though every month--or even every year--or even every decade--we witness a racist spree killing such as this one.

it's not a huge leap to see that this stems from the same source as the killings of trayvon martin, jordan davis, renisha mcbride, etc. (by private citizens) and walter scott, tamir rice, etc. (by the state)

okay, that is a really good example above. abortion shooters/bombers are RARELY called terrorists by newspapers and if anyone should be called a terrorist its them. they are all usually members of rabid groups/churches that are totally organized to attack their enemies. they are textbook terrorists.

i do think of terrorists as belonging to a bigger thing with a definite aim. this kid...i dunno what he was a part of. definitely an act of terror though. with a definite aim. or it looks that way from what he has already said.

another terrorist rarely called a terrorist by anyone. he gets his own cool webpage filled with his wonderful manifestos:

http://www.armyofgod.com/EricRudolphHomepage.html

On WBUR's "On Point" this morning, a commentator quietly asserted that many black churches already have armed guards, although they dress and conduct themselves so as to blend with the congregation. If Emanuel AME followed suit, Roof may have been there long enough to figure out who some of thaw guards likely were---deacons near the pastor. for instance? Metal detectors might help , at least in present-day South Carolina, where legislation allowing guns in churches has been defeated (so far)

Eh, I think DiJ may not be kidding when he says he's not racist,

except he's never said this.

what is "DiJ"

Death In June. Shit band, still fucking going, for some reason.

Nazi cosplayers/avowed xenophobes Death In June

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHyNfqQWgAAg_0D.png:large

what a country:

https://twitter.com/BlairWSOC9/status/611939973550338048

"Death in June".

Anyway, I really hope the media finally finds the time to cover hate groups. Their level of participation on Facebook and Twitter is disturbing, and people fall for their "I'm conservative" schtick. News media are weird when dealing with the far right, it's embarrassing how many of them participate in Tea Party doings. The media owe the public a better understanding of far right groups. Like they should explain what this guy's particular lineage and affiliation is.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/18/cousin-of-charleston-suspect-says-black-man-stole-roofs-love-interest/

"black man stole"

Did 9/11 make people think twice before going postal? xps to caek

http://i.imgur.com/yALaHpn.png

x-post: Read a very recent interview where he said he wasn't a racist, but I am no fan and am not interested in seeking it out. I'm using the 3rd person singular because DiJ has pretty much been one guy fascist dude who may or may not consider himself a racist for a while now. There are more interesting things to talk about, and certainly more important.

this was terrorism in 1961 and it's terrorism now. that the kid's not working for a secret cell led by ernst blofeld is meaningless. he's not working for no one. he's working for a specific and coherent ideology that suffuses his environment and has values and goals. these values and goals are a lot more realistic and closer to power in the place where the kid lives than the ones the tsarnaevs killed for, making him a more relevant and effective terrorist. but yeah we'll call him a Disturbed Individual, not just because he's white tho of course it can't hurt, but as people have said upthread because he urgently needs to be detached from history and context so that he can be condemned from safety.

many xps.

otm

wake me up when they find is reddit login

there were a lot fewer things like this when i was growing up. there was the stockton school shooting, and I can't really remember another one.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/18/cousin-of-charleston-suspect-says-black-man-stole-roofs-love-interest/

this might help explain why he was saying black ppl are taking everyones shit.. which is uh, painfully inaccurate

x-post to Three Word Username

i understand and was trying to relate this stuff to something we are tangentially connected to ie punk/underground music etc

(i mean clearly he is also a Disturbed Individual. not saying he's taking orders from anyone. just that orders aren't necessary for terrorism. only the ideologically justified desire to terrify.)

not just because he's white tho of course it can't hurt, but as people have said upthread because he urgently needs to be detached from history

this a lil garbled too sry. obv the reason he needs to be detached from history is that he's white.

re Boyd Rice: i feel like anti-semitism is more pronounced in the noise/underground scene here than anti-African American racism, but maybe that's just the SF Bay, where leftist/progressive politics are more pervasive

on clementa pinckney: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/blessed-are-the-peacemakers/396365/

http://selfstyledsiren.blogspot.com/2015/06/one-sunday.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/essay-clementa-pinkney-i-knew-n378376

that was very powerful and painful

thank you

I am not going to link to any of them, but the talk on right-wing websites now is all about how this was a "drug-related" shooting (because of his suboxone arrest), and they're listing all of the various medications that all of the various mass killers were reportedly taking. So basically they're adding "drugs/medication" to the "mental illness" umbrella.

Take down the flag.

but should we sell guns to people who are using drugs and medication?

OF FUCKING COURSE WE SHOULD

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/essay-clementa-pinkney-i-knew-n378376

― 龜, Friday, June 19, 2015 3:08 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thank you for sharing this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/19/why-south-carolinas-confederate-flag-isnt-at-half-mast-after-church-shooting/

The reason the SC Governor can't lower the flag(or remove it) is because it is illegal to do. Really.

I am not going to link to any of them, but the talk on right-wing websites now is all about how this was a "drug-related" shooting (because of his suboxone arrest), and they're listing all of the various medications that all of the various mass killers were reportedly taking. So basically they're adding "drugs/medication" to the "mental illness" umbrella.

― something totally new, it’s the AOR of the twenty first century (tipsy mothra), Friday, June 19, 2015 4:17 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark

they should worry about rush limbaugh's painkiller addiction first

time for some direct action xp

The reason the SC Governor can't lower the flag(or remove it) is because it is illegal to do. Really.

Does anybody in SC a) have a blowtorch/axe/metal saw and b) fancy a bit of direct action? xp

let's not give the racists any ammo

Literally?

i was just thinking how cathartic it might be to burn any confederate flag as near the capital building as the law would allow.

in fact, i'm sure you can purchase a confederate flag within a few miles of the capital building itself.

i would sooner just shoplift the flag and burn it, no sense in creating a market for confederate kindling

i would probably value the symbolic gesture over the economic benefit for a confederate flag merchant but your point is fair

...didn't this week teach us anything about not roleplaying as poor righteous black ppl..

apparently not

Confederate Flag is longstanding bs no matter what color you are.

as much as we all hate the confederate flag it does not seem helpful at all to be a non-black person prodding and provoking a culture of terrorism that cares more about that flag than black lives. i'm assuming the people suggesting this are not black and do not even live near SC.

xposts

i think "don't poke the racist fuckfaces" has apparently turned out to be a not very winning strategy

I'm not really concerned about the feelings of these idiots. They live in a reality divorced from history and civility, a reality divorced from the inherent value of human life. Fuck what they 'care about'.

I am a bad person; I thought: "we are sitting here literally debating whether or not to 'poke the WASP nest'"

...didn't this week teach us anything about not roleplaying as poor righteous black ppl..

― Nobody ever knows anything. (sleepingbag), Friday, June 19, 2015 4:33 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

apparently not

― I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Friday, June 19, 2015 4:34 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes that was crummy of me, i'm sorry

The power of a flag burning demonstration would be proportional to just how many South Carolinians (of every color) attended. Meaningless provocation with just a handful, fairly potent if the S.C. capital mall is full and there's a mass singalong of “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”

oh and xxp: of course this was a terrorist act: it had political intent. Many murder sprees don't.

crut otm x1000000000000000

Or better, the original version, "John Brown's Body"

The Unabomber! i thought of another person who was actually officially designated a terrorist. by the government. i forgot about him.

I am burnt out after months and months of right-wing evasions and excuses. The latest comments on Fox (it's an attack on religion???) and by politicians have me seriously depressed, HOWEVER - that is the last straw, if their constituents won't admit that anything is racist and will rub shoulders with the far right, this is war. They ALL have to lose their seats, no more excuses for not prioritizing the defeat of the right. Forever.

I hope no one allows themselves to be sucked into a confederate flag debate AGAIN.

i think "don't poke the racist fuckfaces" has apparently turned out to be a not very winning strategy

it's more "don't trample the black people in your eagerness to poke the racist fuckfaces in the safest, most ineffectual manner possible"

^^^^

I apologize as well, was mostly responding to the "oh it's legal, nothing can be done" line of argument, but not considering the big picture.

Relevant quote from in orbit:

I would cautiously advance that it's situational? And as a white person it's important to ask yrself, Am I doing this because it's effective or bc it makes me feel good? And act accordingly.

I was doing the second thing. Sorry.

I'm down w the removal of the flag because ever since I was a kid in school and learned about SC and my own state having the flag I wanted it down. Because I heard about this "southern heritage" that had nothing to do with me, a southern person, nor any of the people or communities I would encounter for the next 20+ years of my life in the south.

so basically the murders of nine people is a convenient excuse for you to scream from atop your hobby horse that has been 20+ years in the making

No apparently it's a convenient excuse for you to police my behavior.

Also a few sentences on a message board is not "screaming from atop my hobby horse" but feel free to blow things out of proportion. I'm out for the evening...

well that was easier than I expected

guess it's a natural consequence for a group such as liberals whose main thing is pointing out perceived inequality to constantly bicker amongst themselves on trivial ingroup matters like who isn't 100% righteous in every thought and action

uh-oh

say 'trivial' again, i dare u

relatively trivial. but thanks for demonstrating my point!

uh can a mod threadban granny dainger? thanks

^^^

fight the real enemy you pantywaists

fuck off you sanctimonious cunt

ok

pretty rich coming from an ilxor, that made me giggle

I'm down w the removal of the flag because ever since I was a kid in school and learned about SC and my own state having the flag I wanted it down. Because I heard about this "southern heritage" that had nothing to do with me, a southern person, nor any of the people or communities I would encounter for the next 20+ years of my life in the south.

I'm more than down with the removal of the flag!! But burning the flag is not a "removal of the flag." The flag cannot be removed without legislation. I've lived in Georgia my whole life and I hate the flag for the same reasons you do. But you and I have nothing to lose if we burn a Confederate flag; the burden of any violent blowback is placed on black Americans and especially black Southerners, who have suffered the whims of white anger and brutality for centuries. Burning a flag that flies over a state capitol is an act of terrorism & does absolutely nothing but reinforce the terroristic level of discourse that plagues this country's white supremacist unconsciousness. Unless you think inciting a civil war is actually a productive way to put an end to anti-black violence in this country.

speaking of john brown's body

I didn't say we should burn it, just take it down. Other people in this thread were talking about burning it. I said take it down.

Burning a flag might incite a civil war? Errrrr, good luck, America.

xpost fair enough! my bad.

Burning a flag might incite a civil war? Errrrr, good luck, America.

― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Friday, June 19, 2015 7:47 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

burning the flag, particularly at the state capitol (which i understood to be the idea) could most certainly incite racist violence against black south carolinians. i was going to add "and provide fodder for fox news looking to flip the story around to where the black population are the villains" but at this point basically anything you can do politically does that. but the violence thing is real. and yes, america is pretty fucked up.

Having grown up in SC and GA I would guess half the people that wear/fly it are mostly just dumbasses who wouldn't hurt a fly and think they're just saying "I luv the south!" Now the other half...

I've seen it on bumper stickers in Canada, lots of times. Not really sure what the hell people are thinking. Possibly just self-identifying as a 'redneck' without giving a lot of thought to the implications that carries. It certainly has zero to do with heritage up here.

without giving a lot of thought to the implications that carries

Who am I kidding with this. Everyone knows what it means.

Man, not everyone does. Jackass "rebellious" kids all over the world fetishize that image for the same reason punks did swastikas in the 70s. They know it's offensive, and their prime objective is to offend. But look at Thailand and their fascination with Adolf Hitler. They know just enough about him to see him as an icon, but they don't know about him. Same could be said for all the dumb western kids wearing Che t-shirts.

if yr in america you know what the confederate flag means and anyone that says they don't is being a disingenuous liar.

but it occurs to me btw that whether the flag flies or not is sort of relatively less important than the more general problem of the murderous people that want to fly it, and it is an important issue sure, but it seems sort of odd for all the anger about what's happened to get rapidly turned into a discussion over a scrap of cloth, symbolic as it may be.

yeah, it's not like they're skinheads or the klan. They're just idiots. But often they are blatantly racist idiots who do not consider themselves racist.

No, you're right. I'm guilty myself of taking my focus off the murders and diverting it into arguments about that flag and about gun control.

i think gun control is a good thing to think about. there is nothing anyone can do for those people who died, but there is maybe something people can do for the future. maybe. i have no idea. this country really loves guns. and has almost no need for them. outside of hunting animals for food. and most people with guns don't even use them for that. they just like having them. lots of them.

"Heez
Posted: June 19, 2015 at 7:03:54 PM
Having grown up in SC and GA I would guess half the people that wear/fly it are mostly just dumbasses who wouldn't hurt a fly and think they're just saying "I luv the south!" Now the other half..."

Pretty good argument for the idea that wearing or flying this flag is by definition harmful or hurtful so yeah I don't buy this

If only we had dedicated threads to talk about the confederate flag or gun control instead of folding it into a thread about the murder of 9 human beings maybe we should work on that here in the future

um no one was saying it wasn't harmful or hurtful.

anyway i agree. another thread is probably the best place for that discussion.

This happened while I was blessedly out in the boondocks, camping by a beautiful river and hiking in unspoiled nature, so I'm late in commenting on this atrocity.

Upthread I noticed someone quoting the usual yahoo internet comments to the effect that 'if the pastor were armed, this wouldn't have been as bad as it was'. All I can say is that when the Black Panthers said much the same as these brainless NRA gun lovers, that all black men and women should arm themselves with an arsenal equal to their enemies' weaponry, it led to the FBI besieging them in Oakland, pouring a hail of thousands of bullets at them through the walls of their apartment, and these same yahoos were cheering for the police.

Welp, his manifesto has been uncovered. Guess what! He's racist AF.

ugh. i just hope he doesn't end up on death row for 20 years scribbling more hate for his fans. general population in a south carolina prison should do the trick...

(sorry, not usually a vengeful person, but...)

david brothers: http://tumblr.iamdavidbrothers.com/post/121924652597/god-is-with-us

The manifesto is... typical? The mass dissemination by scoop-driven news sites is troubling. And as for the argument that it will make any difference to memebrs of the public who are still in denial about the shooter's motives: I'll believe it when I see it.

If only we had dedicated threads to talk about the confederate flag or gun control instead of folding it into a thread about the murder of 9 human beings maybe we should work on that here in the future

― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Friday, June 19, 2015 9:15 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This righteous bullshit about the unbreachable sanctity of thread topics is one of the more stinking features at ILX.

excellent line from david brothers:

Black pain is inflicted, forced upon us by outside forces. The culture is what’s real. The culture is black, not the scars.

I got to the mention of Council of Conservative Citizens and went "this doesn't sound right at all"; after a quick search I found this:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/council-of-conservative-citizens

not really shocking but ffs it's 2015

also, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, it is my most fervent hope that someone murders this guy

p sure the state will

a little off topic, but is the SPLC a good place to donate? not really sure what their main focus is with donations

http://www.charleston-sc.gov/index.aspx?NID=1330

Donations.

Charity Navigator rates SPLC fairly good.

SPLC does the magazine Teaching Tolerance which is an invaluable resource for progressive education. It's where I got lessons for teaching The New Jim Crow in my debate class.

Glad to be made aware of the Charity Navigator site; SPLC deserves extra credit for taking risks of violent reprisal that probably wouldn't apply to, say, the Cure Alzheimers Fund.

Is it a good idea to publish long excerpts of the killer's manifesto rather than just little snippets that show how hateful it is? I don't really know. Maybe it's useful to see what the ideology looks like, as in the Atlantic article on ISIS but I guess in my gut I just don't want white suprematists to have such a visible platform in America. The very ideas he includes in that manifesto are the source of violence and discrimination all the time here.

I would say not publishing any of it is the best. Why contribute to spreading this person's hate?

Yeah. With Elliott Rodger it was educational for me to learn there were communities that said more or less the same things as him because I hadn't seen them before, but the excerpts of this one are distressingly familiar.

Idk. I think journalists could argue that the public needs to be educated on the kind of virulent racism that's out there. It clearly doesn't begin or end with this one person.

I'm torn on this and probably am not really entitled to an opinion. But I guess you could say that seeing the way this horror show of patched-together references to other people's racist causes and narratives is another way of pushing back against the "lone wolf goes nuts" story to say, actually, this guy basically got his ideas from a bunch of other people, from the way a certain swath of the country responded to other recent events, etc. I don't know what I'm imagining would really come of that though - not like news story commenters and talk-radio demagogues would give themselves a tough looking-over about the stuff they've been saying, and letting their callers say without challenge, or whatever. I don't think hearing Timothy McVeigh's paranoid anti-federal screeds did much to make people pause at the way "the government" was demonized at large as an alien force, or to make the more "mainstream" right-wingers who were spreading that stuff around pause to ask themselves if they were in part responsible. So...yeah.

and there's stuff like this

https://medium.com/@thesusanito/to-my-friends-who-have-not-posted-acknowledged-shared-or-commented-about-the-tragedy-in-a00798464010

Now that really is the kind of unhelpful sanctimony that shit ppl are saying this thread consists of

Yeah i don't know about that article. Grieving on social media is something that feels right to some people but not to others.

Much rather a few ppl eloquently vocalise their horror or shock or whatever than a hundred assholes jam up the airwaves with zquotes.com

If you do a post shaming others for not posting, it's like 2 birds w one stone.

More discussion of Timothy McVeigh's paranoid anti-federal screeds might have been useful at the time, both in pointing out that the feds had indeed acted pretty crazy and murderous in Waco (this hadn't come out at the time but it sure did later - did you know they could have arrested Koresh multiple times when he used to visit town all by himself, but no, they had to have a big stakeout complete with weird high volume psyche warfare around the compound ) and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, that McVeigh represented and was influenced by an utterly hateful strain of fucked up discourse that had gone on unchallenged for ages in America. And I disagree --- the Fed bombing really did set back the militia movement and the spread of weirdass rightwingery in America for a while there, people actually did notice.

So it's kind of important right now to not let this guy out to be a "lone nut" in the typical narrative around white terrorists but somebody who committed violence as part of a larger movement, even if it is only a movement he imagined himself part of. A large racist right wing movement that has managed to avoid the kind of scrutiny that all kinds of other groups suffer.

For example. In a society where cops can shoot a Muslim on the grounds that he was planning terrorism based on statements that.....well, we will be sharing with you later, along with that video, but for now, you can just take our word for it that this guy was dangerous..........well, there's no excuse whatsoever for suppressing this white boy's dumb little manifesto.

The population at large is going to need to be made to deal with the long-overdue recognition that white people can be terrorists - and we need all the publicized proof of it we can get.

Is it a good idea to publish long excerpts of the killer's manifesto rather than just little snippets that show how hateful it is? I don't really know. Maybe it's useful to see what the ideology looks like, as in the Atlantic article on ISIS but I guess in my gut I just don't want white suprematists to have such a visible platform in America. The very ideas he includes in that manifesto are the source of violence and discrimination all the time here.

― Treeship, Saturday, June 20, 2015 2:50 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

about half of it reads like the comments section to any news site, he's not exactly breaking new ground

yeah i totally agree. the familiarity of it was the most striking/chilling part to me. maybe journalists are publishing it hoping to make that point but i don't know. just publishing long excerpts with minimal commentary, as i've seen, seems to have major drawbacks and not much benefit for the public

Today on Freak Previews: "previous manifestoes I laughed, I cried -- this one just put me to sleep. A sad effort that would never have seen the light of day where it not for the author's murderous actions."

> Fed bombing really did set back the militia movement

As an aside, I was struck by the near absence of mass killings for 3½ years after the 911 attacks in that chart above. Maybe just coincidence, but perhaps some level of shared adversity is community building, or at least helps disgruntled potential killers to gain perspective.

A surprise, given the author:

After the South Carolina massacre, I thought about the only person I personally know who displays the Confederate flag. I believe him to be a genuine racist, based on things he has said. A visiting black friend of mine from New Orleans, driving around our area, saw the flag on the way to our house, and I was embarrassed by it. I didn’t want him to think that we were all like that white racist.

Well, what if I did not have good reason to believe that the Flag Man was racist? What if he was just a Civil War buff, and what if I knew that that’s all he was, and that he meant nothing racist by the display of the Confederate flag? Would I still have been embarrassed in front of my black New Orleans friend, and would I still have felt obliged to distance myself from the flag’s display, so my friend wouldn’t think the guy who lives in our parish represents me?

Yes, I would have. Even if I knew for a fact that the man’s display of the Confederate flag was not meant to symbolize racism, I still would have been troubled that the appearance of such would have offended my black friend. Yesterday, all that came to mind again, and I concluded that the Confederate flag has become impossible for most people to see as symbolizing anything other than white supremacy. Therefore, it cannot be redeemed. Therefore it should be retired from public display, except in clearly historical settings (e.g., museums, Civil War cemeteries, historical re-enactments), and then only in a limited way.

I concluded that the Confederate flag has become impossible for most people to see as symbolizing anything other than white supremacy.

huh

he wants a ribbon for having a black friend

what "heritage" is it people celebrate with the flag? states' rights? rebellion? independence? states' rights to do what? rebellion against what? independence for whom?

sry, facing the choir obv.

yeah those arguments don't make a whole lot of sense. many white people in the south remember the civil war differently than the north though; they emphasize things like sherman's march and the post-reconstruction economic devastation and de-emphasize things like slavery and the epidemic violence and oppression against black people that followed emancipation and continues to this day. there are probably confederate flag wavers who don't harbor hostility toward black people but still feel attached to this historical narrative built on the erasure of black history. i think they are the minority of confederate flag proponents and i also don't think we need to legitimize their fantasies by calling it "heritage"

pretty much, the confederate flag is usually wielded by active racists and maybe sometimes by passive racists but it isn't anything other than a racist symbol. imo

i believe that water is wet, everyone with me on this?

the science isn't clear on that, sarahell

god that CCC synopsis is depressing

my uncle back in Australia is one of the most horribly racist people I have ever come across. And there's no good level of racism but he is *horribly*, racist, the kind of ugly oldfashioned anti-semitic, anti-asian, anti-black, like Klan level hatespeech that you thought only existed in underground pamphlets & not in actual words coming out of someone's mouth. My Mum told me not long ago that he was a member of the League of Rights, a borderline Neo Nazi group.

If it's even possible, he has gotten worse as he has gotten older - he cant be part of a normal conversation anymore because 90% of everything out of his mouth now is straightup poison.

I cannot repeat the things that he said to me in passing when I last saw him a few years ago...but reading that kid's manifesto this morning I heard the ghost of conversations with my crazy uncle and it terrified me. I am so horribly & utterly ashamed of my silence

Re: posting the manifesto or not - I haven't seen it (and of course I'm aware that I'm fortunate to be able to consider pluses and minuses in the knowledge that none of them will apply to me) but if it's mostly commentbox-level evil, and if there's a bunch of Republican politicians who have been trying hard to play every other angle, anything that forces them to either say "this is what racism looks like" or double down, would be good from that perspective.

Veg what would your speaking up have achieved tho? That sort of inveterate hatred is different to chaki's hypothetical friend into dodgy art imo

I have had some dealings with ppl that crazy racist a and calling them on it makes no difference ime. Not friends or relatives I hasten to add. There was a courier who delivered to a shop I worked in years ago who apropos of nothing declared himself an unrepentant racist. He had been in prison but said he was reformed ("too old for that shit") but still proudly hated blacks and Asians and defied us to honestly tell him he was wrong - c'mon, you don't really like them. I was like, my dad's black and you're full of shit, my colleague said much the same and his only response was a sort of good-natured "oops, sorry I spoke"

another time I was in an empty train carriage with an actual Australian nazi with swastika tattoos and pupils the size of saucers. That time I was not brave enough to tell him he was full of shit

Not sure how that slothrop stutter got in there

he wants a ribbon for having a black friend

maybe, but still good to see that response (or belated acknowledgment) from southern conservatives & bipartisan call for confederate flag to be taken down (which is necessary for it to happen)

One more reason why it matters that this get called a terrorist act:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fbi-director-says-charleston-shooting-not-terrorism/

Plot Summary: His reasoning doesn't remotely stand up unless you somehow think targeting a specific group for killing is not also an "act of violence done or threaten(ed) to in order to try to influence a public body or citizenry" He just killed them, he wasn't trying to influence anybody, get it?

Why the FBI would care not to call this terrorism: For years the FBI has et up (usually dimwitted) members of Certain Groups with weapons and action plans then arrested them & then triumphantly announced that they had thwarted future terrorist acts. Why complicate this easy gig and all the handjobs it has inspired by including non "radicalized" white people in the "potential terrorist" mix? What's the FBI to do with middle class terrorism anyway? Their jobs?

it's just probably less paperwork for to prosecute as a hate crime than a terrorist act

reluctant to call anything 'terrorism' given the agenda that word serves in the US

“Terrorism is act of violence done or threatens to in order to try to influence a public body or citizenry so it’s more of a political act and again based on what I know so more I don’t see it as a political act.”

How is killing a US senator not this? Is a church not a public body? Are these people not citizens?

reluctant to call anything 'terrorism' given the agenda that word serves in the US

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:18 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I appreciate this sentiment, I truly do, but I think the "agenda" is exactly what is being protected when acts like this are NOT called terrorism. Apply the word "terrorism" more broadly and fairly and maybe we can destroy its magic powers.

Obviously Comey's statement is bullshit, and this was an act of domestic terrorism, but is prosecuting it as terrorism rather than as a hate crime going to do anything for the families of the victims or the community or is it going to help a political point we'd like to advance?

That political point is worth advancing I'd think.

The community in question considers it an act of terror, so I don't think they'd mind it being prosecuted as such.

Veg what would your speaking up have achieved tho?

not to speak for veg but i have an uncle like hers, and even though you know speaking up will do NOTHING it is really hard to have to listen to such spiteful garbage without formulating some form of response, even if it won't ever be said as some kind of therapy.

Federal terrorist prosecutions to date:

192 providing material support to terrorists
68 plotting violence abroad
36 funding terrorists
25 weapons of mass destruction
16 terrorist acts against Americans abroad
14 trying to obtain missiles to detroy aircraft
8 receiving terrorist training
6 bombings
4 Air piracy/attacks on public transport
2 hostage taking

There has never been a terrorism prosecution for domestic firearm homicides excepting perhaps on public transport. I suspect while we can call this attack terrorism on account of the political intent, the law isn't geared to.

Guns don't kill people, terrorists do... unless they're using guns. Fort Hood shooting was classified as workplace violence.

Ample scholarship proves that the term “terrorism” is empty, definition-free and invariably manipulated. Harvard’s Lisa Stampnitzky has documented “the inability of researchers to establish a suitable definition of the concept of ‘terrorism’ itself.” The concept of “terrorism” is fundamentally plagued by ideological agendas and self-interested manipulation, as Professor Richard Jackson at the the National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies in New Zealand has explained: “most of what is accepted as well-founded ‘knowledge’ in terrorism studies is, in fact, highly debatable and unstable” and is “biased towards Western state priorities.” Remi Brulin is a scholar who specializes in the discourse of “terrorism” and has long documented that, from the start, it was a highly manipulated term of propaganda more than it was a term of fixed meaning — largely intended to justify violence by the West and Israel while delegitimizing the violence of its enemies.

What is most amazing about all of this is that “terrorism” — a term that is so easily and frequently manipulated and devoid of fixed meaning — has now become central to our political culture and legal framework, a staple of how we are taught to think about the world. It is constantly invoked, as though it is some sort of term of scientific precision, to justify an endless array of radical policies and powers. Everything from the attack on Iraq to torture to endless drone killings to mass surveillance and beyond are justified in its name.

In fact, it is, as I have often argued, a term that justifies everything yet means nothing. Perhaps the only way people will start to see that, or at least be bothered by it, is if it becomes clear that not just marginalized minority groups but also their own group can be swept up by its elasticity and meaninglessness. There is ample resistance to that, which is why repulsive violence committed by white non-Muslims such as yesterday’s church massacre is so rarely described by the term. But that’s all the more reason to insist on something resembling fair and consistent application.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/19/refusal-call-charleston-shootings-terrorism-shows-meaningless-propaganda-term/

Remi Brulin is a scholar who specializes in the discourse of “terrorism” and has long documented that, from the start, it was a highly manipulated term of propaganda more than it was a term of fixed meaning — largely intended to justify violence by the West and Israel while delegitimizing the violence of its enemies.

He has new work out, too!

https://www.academia.edu/12999739/Bringing_the_States_Discourses_Back_In_The_United_States_and_Terrorism_in_Guatemala

Nice! Thanks.

On a recent trip visiting family in and around DC, we finally went to the Newseum, which was great. But I was impressed, browsing the wing dedicated to famous FBI cases, that it definitively and explicitly branded the KKK a terrorist organization. Which of course it is, but I couldn't recall ever seeing it deemed that in such a formal setting. It was very satisfying, tbh (along with the ratty white hood being relentlessly mocked by the group of school kids passing by), to see the KKK called terrorists in a museum that spends so much time cataloging, say, the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

x-post

I would say not publishing any of it is the best. Why contribute to spreading this person's hate?

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Saturday

There are people who try to minimize the existence of such hatred and try to claim that for most the part that such overt racism is a thing of the past--from a pre civil rights era, and maybe publishing excerpts of his manifesto shows how such ugliness is still present

If we're going to have a Conversation About Race, let's have a loud one about the awful facts of our history.

A 2014 poll found that 73 percent of whites in South Carolina support the flag, while 61 percent of blacks say it should be removed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/church-killings-ignite-furor-anew-over-sc-capitols-confederate-flag/2015/06/20/a0fb7bba-1789-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html

If we're going to have a Conversation About Race, let's have a loud one about the awful facts of our history.

Amen. I was reading through various articles of secession again this week -- which are bracing for their candor about the casus belli -- and it struck me that the secessionists were the original originalists. The secession arguments are full of references to the Constitution's explicit establishment of a white supremacist state. The Confederates were correct in their sense that the abolitionists were seeking to overturn the established constitutional order. That's what America was.

Then of course you get into the postwar century of apartheid and state violence, and the succeeding 50 years of efforts to roll back the civil rights movement.

Think you guys may be less cynical than me re: evidence and facts proving anything to the right.

If we want a conversation and to take time to educate people on the history, maybe write about the role of churches in the African American community, which stretches back across history from today on through Civil Rights era and back to the slavery era.

This shooter gave up his right to have a point in the conversation. We're not going to learn anything by reading his writings. His thought are invalid because of his actions.

If I were allowed to fuck w/the high school curriculum, I'd teach in an American history class the Confederate constitution, Charles Dickens' American Notes and 12 Years a Slave back to back.

You could do that in a progressive private school

Even public schools often have latitude like that. Teachers gi e Howard Zinn to high schoolers all the time for instance, despite what conservative parents might think about it

You have to deal with guys like this though, in some states--Grrr, this guy below (quote from the Washington Post article above)

Mississippi is now the only state that still has a confederate flag as part of its state banner. Former Mississippi governor and former Republican National Committee chairman Haley Barbour said that connecting the shooting to the confederate flag is “beyond stretching.”

“The flag didn’t have a thing in the world to do with what happened,” Barbour said. “It is part of history, just like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, who were all slave owners. Are we now going to change the name of the Washington Monument, too?”

I'm sure that anyone reading this thread will already see elsewhere, but: South Carolina governor calls for taking the flag down.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/22/confederate-flag-south-carolina-charleston

respect that some elected officials finally had the guts to do it

In Mississippi there's also some action to remove it from their state flag.

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2015/06/22/petition-mississippi-confederate-flag/29113157/

Are we now going to change the name of the Washington Monument, too?

I'd be down with that. Fuck George Washington.

Get in line.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Do1wtnYf2yQ/Sc7g0NzJf_I/AAAAAAAAGFk/4MEETDdHo9A/s200/laijoinordie03.jpg

/We're not going to learn anything by reading his writings/

I learned quite a bit, and what is in there is important. Timothy McVeigh read The Turner Diaries - it was important to know what was in that book, it was important to learn about the author and what his ties were.

In the case of Roof, he mentioned the Conservative Citizens Council as a source. A lot of people don't know what that is. They had ties to the Klan but also the GOP. This is important stuff. I don't think we should get it from a website that Roof set up, but the writings and pictures could be reproduced elsewhere.

Information about the far right is useful to the victims. Some people might not like hearing this, but victims often have questions about the perpetrator. It's not to validate the perp's thinking, but to fill in gaps in the narrative of the traumatizing event.

CCC had a list of incidents of "black on white" crime. I think it's really important to understand how far-right groups work, especially if you're online and encounter a lot of racism. The SPLC has quoted Roof's web page.

my great great uncle rufus testifying before congress. he talks about how strong the hate is for the u.s. govt in south carolina:

Question. If the State should have its own way in regard to the freedmen, what, in your iudgment,
would be the result in the course of time ?

Answer. I believe it will lead to insurrection and a war of races, in which the United States troops will
be called upon to aid in the extermination of the black race. I think it is the belief of a great majority
of the former masters that the freedom of the black race is a failure, and that slavery is his best
condition, and that they desire to pursue such a policy as to prove that they are correct in that
belief. I can see no hope for the freedmen except through the care of the United States government

http://www.drbronsontours.com/bronsongeneralrufussaxtontestimonyreportofjointcommitteeonreconstruction.html

Ta-Nehisi Coates latest column is also about that era, eye-opening to me as an ignorant foreigner* to see the alien-ness of the mindset, people arguing proudly in public that slavery was the greatest good.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

*ignorant of my own history as well - there weren't a lot of Irish slave owners, but those that there were would surely have repeated this bilge as well.

What is it but a conglomeration of greasy mechanics, filthy operatives, small-fisted farmers, and moon-struck theorists?

new board description

The biggest news to me out of that excellent TNC column is the plan to establish a slaveholding empire reaching from Virginia to South America. They were thinking big, I'll give them that. The insane argument that slavery fostered greater equality because no white people had to do the worst jobs is just ...

hey, a rising tide lifts all boats

Cuba and the United States' tangled history begins with Jefferson wanting the colony as a slave state.

confederate flag sales up 2305% at amazon

http://www.motherjones.com/contributor/2015/06/one-tweet-shows-why-everything-awful

good for jeff bezos. fuck the racist scumbags

It's a little amazing how fast this is all happening.

I hate that it's a product of what it's a product of, and it's unlikely to change much in the grand scheme, but if people throughout the south (and in other parts of the country) are forced to contemplate what the flags and their "heritage" arguments really mean, then it's a good thing.

yeah it's easy to be cynical but this is terrific. a stronger taboo needed to be put around this rebel trash for a long time. funny how the world works.

Yeah. I wonder how local businesses are dealing with this in the town I went to college in. (Rhymes with Shmettysburg.)

here's hoping someone convinces the State of Georgia to scrub away the KKK-sponsored Davis/Lee/Jackson carving on Stone Mountain before this Thanksgiving.

well, the shit belongs in museums, not flown from currently operating government buildings

Even public schools often have latitude like that. Teachers gi e Howard Zinn to high schoolers all the time for instance, despite what conservative parents might think about it

― Treeship, Sunday, June 21, 2015 4:23 PM (2 days ago)

tbh zinn's writings about the civil war were pretty dodgy, as TNC noted a while back

here's hoping someone convinces the State of Georgia to scrub away the KKK-sponsored Davis/Lee/Jackson carving on Stone Mountain before this Thanksgiving.

― example (crüt), Tuesday, June 23, 2015 5:07 PM (5 minutes ago)

Taking down a flag costs nothing, but you know Nathan Deal isn't going to spend that kind of money.

It's a lot easier to get rid of flags than the huge monuments to Confederate soldiers/generals littering the south.

sidebar: if this can get ppl discussing and interrogating & reframing their understanding civil war history, it's a good thing imo

My boss' argument this morning, with a student who thought (wrongly, in my view) the Confederate flag should be burned, was that it should be flown to remember how awful the Confederacy issue. He likened the burning to burning books. I said a book isn't a flag. He wanted to turn it into a free speech issue: grotesque and dangerous ideas should be exhibited (he mentioned Skokie). And I agree! Exhibit the flag in a museum.

I'm all for opening them up to the public for creative defacing, though. xps

While we're at it, we should exhibit the Haley Barbours, Ted Cruzes, and Lindsay Grahams in museums as examples of retrograde and grotesque ideas.

the racist flag is viral.

you can't stop the misguided and hateful from buying em and remain true to our ideals, what few remain, but removing the state sanction will diminish its future life.

While we're at it, we should exhibit the Haley Barbours, Ted Cruzes, and Lindsay Grahams in museums as examples of retrograde and grotesque ideas.

worst Night at the Museum ever

There is a store just outside of the Jack Daniels distillery that makes its entire livelihood out of selling Confederacy swag; I wonder if they're receiving any blowback from all of this. (NB: The store is terrifying. There was an entire set of Confederate flag bed linens complete with Stars and Bars "comforter", which is probably the most ironically-named item I've ever seen with my own eyes.)

it's like people have latched universally onto the flag as THE 'action item' after quietly accepting that the gun issue... there will be no gun issue.

"uncomforter"

xp

it's like people have latched universally onto the flag as THE 'action item' after quietly accepting that the gun issue... there will be no gun issu

this occurred to me too, but I guess we should be grateful for whatever small victories accrue

... no we shouldn't

xp Yes, I would much rather people started melting down their guns, renouncing their NRA memberships by the thousands, and running gun merchants out of their cities with great haste, but that's a pipedream. In its stead, I'll take a bunch of people acknowledging that honoring Confederate history is kind of bullshit.

you don't think it's a good thing that the Confederate Flag comes in for long overdue public shunning?

xp

I think that the instant people become "satisfied" with the Confederate flag losing state sponsorship, everyone is going to slide back into their happy support-white-supremacy-by-default-because-that-is-how-our-society-works ways and a bunch more black people are going to get killed with resigned tut-tutting until the next time some egregious dickhole murders some people in a church.

sorry, "grateful"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cReCQE8B5nY

the only qualm i have about all this is that i imagine there are some history buffs who collect civil-war and related ephemera and they might have an interest in something with the confederate seal (like confederate money, say) that doesn't have to do with their identity as neo-confederate racist slavery apologists.

otherwise i'd say (as i said on the other thread) that this is good and about 150 years overdue.

that said, i think morbius is right that this serves among other things as a kind of displacement of political energies (or catharsis) from the matter of gun control.

exactly

in a vacuum it'd be a salve. in this context, a band-aid. xxp

everyone is going to slide back into their happy support-white-supremacy-by-default-because-that-is-how-our-society-works ways and a bunch more black people are going to get killed with resigned tut-tutting until the next time some egregious dickhole murders some people in a church

yeah agree w this, if it wasn't clear my enthusiasm for these developments is tempered by their sort of surface-gloss nature. I mean by all means take the flag down off the SC capitol, it's ridiculous that it's there at all, but it's not the profound institutional change one would hope for.

xp

wait are we all agreeing w morbz what is the world coming too

a band-aid on a tumor, that is

xp
In a lot of ways the emphasis on gun control functions in exactly the same way. It should be no secret what the hostility that drives gun culture is a reaction to.

btw i was referring to eBay banning sales of stuff associated w/ CSA.

i agree that taking the confederate flag out of the mainstream isn't about to end racism or racist violence, but i do think that the confederacy-as-southern-heritage stuff gave a kind of rhetorical cover to a lot of racists and they won't be able to make as easy use of that cover anymore. small measure of progress perhaps, but still.

I would much rather people started melting down their guns, renouncing their NRA memberships

it's not a matter of waiting for the dicks to get religion, but for us to keep them from enabling/committing murders.

xp
Confederacy-as-southern-heritage
Guns-as-constitutional-right
etc...

Discussion about the flag has been so falsified at worst or at best covered with so much ameliorating blather about Tradition and Culture that I'm glad I'm seeing conservatives on my FB wall sharing Ta-Nehisi Coates posts.

But they weren't sharing them before, and likely won't again.

by CSA i mean community-supported agriculture btw. that's what we're all talking about, right?

I suspect neo-Confederates are just going to switch to the Gadsden flag

i think it's important to keep straight what a symbol is and what it's for. something like the "confederate flag" (and really, internet, spare me the #actuallys about the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia or whateverthefuck) it's key to think of it as a symptom. in its post-60s resurrection, displaying this flag is a demonstration of the power of a the white revanchist constituency, it's a symbol/symptom of their hold on public life. putting it up is a flex; at this late date it means "fuck you, we can still do this." they'll argue till blue in face it's not about slavery but the "fuck you" doesn't go away. they've aaalmost succeeded at turning it into some kind of flee-floating symbol of "rebellion," your duke boys and skynyrd and all that two-faced drunk party redneck bullshit -- funny that it's us shaming liberals who insist on reading the flag in its full meaning.

nikki haley finally popping a hole in the dike and whole southern political class having to get it line to tell these people, sorry, we've gotta let this one go, has been a real treat. fine, don't mistake it, but i'm enjoying it. is it real? some of the worst people on earth are feeling it as such...

My guess is that a lot of them are Tea Partiers anyway, so there's probably already one around the house. xp

nikki haley finally popping a hole in the dike and whole southern political class having to get it line to tell these people, sorry, we've gotta let this one go, has been a real treat. fine, don't mistake it, but i'm enjoying it. is it real? some of the worst people on earth are feeling it as such...

this

Well, as long as some of the worst people on earth have more time to concentrate on their other interests of having guns and hating black people, I think we can call this a win!

What would it even take to get guns to get banned in this country? I was thinking maybe if the entire congress and executive branch was gunned down in some insane incident.. but then I thought whoever did that would be lauded as a hero.

pretty sure Ted Cruz would survive and destroy the earth in revenge

it would "take" a very gradual shift in feeling over many decades

i.e. not one or even two dozen incidents

ugh its just so sad to me after Sandy Hook's wave of revulsion subsided in about 20 minutes and the NRA won out

If a breakaway nonpartisan hunter's education/rights group split off from the NRA, with a more nuanced/less doctrinaire interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that accepted stricter restrictions on handguns (like, for example, years of rifle/shotgun registration/ownership without incident), it would do a lot to move the debate. The problem is the NRA is to the right of most of its membership, but there aren't large scale alternatives (with similar educational/sales benefits) for traditional hunters etc.

ed kilgor's read of the conflicting genealogies of southern and national conservatism is pretty interesting

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/nikki-haley-confederate-flag-speech

But push comes to shove, her loyalty is to the same Golden Calf of unregulated capitalism worshiped by Scott Walker, not to the regional aristocracy of the Old South. And so when the Battle Flag becomes a source of acute embarrassment to the state and an obstacle to economic development, down it comes, without a lot of discussion. "We do not need to declare a winner and a loser here," she said in announcing her new position.

The problem is the NRA is to the right of most of its membership, but there aren't large scale alternatives (with similar educational/sales benefits) for traditional hunters etc.

I don't think this is actually the problem - most gun control measures don't actually solve much (SC shooter passed a background test etc.) and the nation is absolutely awash in firearms. Extreme measures are called for imo.

the fact is there are *so many* guns in this country it doesn't matter what sales are illegal or what requirements are mandated, if you are crazy/homicidal/suicidal you will not have too much trouble getting a gun. That is the problem.

booming post from goole yday

here's hoping someone convinces the State of Georgia to scrub away the KKK-sponsored Davis/Lee/Jackson carving on Stone Mountain before this Thanksgiving.

So I have a framed picture of the park on my piano and I'm conflicted about what to do with it. I could give a fuck about Davis/lee/Jackson but it's also where I grew up and have great memories of riding my bike and hanging out w/ friends.

Anyway I took my wife there last summer and loved the fact that there was so many different ethnicities taking the hike up w/ us. Truly an example of the"new south"

Yeah i don't think it's going anywhere.

New Orleans is home to prominent statues of Jeff Davis and General Lee, none of any Union politicians or soldiers, and the only monument in the country that celebrates the killing of police officers.

i think it's important to keep straight what a symbol is and what it's for. something like the "confederate flag" (and really, internet, spare me the #actuallys about the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia or whateverthefuck) it's key to think of it as a symptom. in its post-60s resurrection, displaying this flag is a demonstration of the power of a the white revanchist constituency, it's a symbol/symptom of their hold on public life. putting it up is a flex; at this late date it means "fuck you, we can still do this."

yes. IMO this is why the flag 'matters.' not that it matters more than other things, but going back to my long post about roof above, i think keeping the flag up doesn't just "symbolize" things, it does things. in the way that symbols do things. it tells people like roof that "they" are really in charge, that they are part of a large body, maybe a silent majority -- that their beliefs are basically mainstream even if most people are "too polite" or "too cowardly" to act on them. periodic fights to keep the flag up become convenient opportunities to polish up the old rhetoric and the old euphemisms. middle-school social studies classes get to ring with 12-year-olds who missed the last fight, trying out the word "heritage" for the first time. someday those kids are grownups; someday some of them are the people roof was reading.

i agree that "the conversation" or policy struggles should in no way end with the flag. given that it should have come down a long, long, long time ago, it should really be the minor warm-up fight before the much tougher, longer struggles, the ones where conservatives in power are emphatically not going to take the temperature of their base and national public opinion and fold immediately.

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html

-- I guess it is important for the newspaper of record to point this out, but all the same i feel like there's an irresponsible level of fearmongering happening here. ultimately it is dwindingly (sp?) unlikely that you will be hurt or killed by a terror attack of any kind (homegrown or otherwise).

>What would it even take to get guns to get banned in this country? I was thinking maybe if the entire congress and executive branch was gunned down in some insane incident.. but then I thought whoever did that would be lauded as a hero.

i was thinking the other night, it would take someone coming into an NRA convention, totally kevlared up, throwing two fist-fulls of live grenades into the crowd and then spraying everyone around him with as much automatic gunfire as possible before being eventually knock down by whatever gunfire people manage to return; before they are willing to have any productive dialogue about gun reform.

xp i didn't get that impression. they're trying to counter the commonly accepted narrative that we should be afraid of Muslim Jihad attacks all the time

a non-right wing majority on the supreme court might stop ignoring the "well-regulated militia" bit in the opening of the second amendment. go hillary

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2012/06/120628_JURIS_JusticeRoberts2.jpg.CROP.article250-medium.jpg

"ultimately it is dwindingly (sp?) unlikely that you will be hurt or killed by a terror attack of any kind (homegrown or otherwise)."

george carlin explained this to us years ago.

xp i didn't get that impression. they're trying to counter the commonly accepted narrative that we should be afraid of Muslim Jihad attacks all the time

― Nhex, Wednesday, June 24, 2015 10:44 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know, but i also think it plays into fears about domestic terrorism that are only marginally more rational

i mean, i know, tell that to the victims in charleston etc.

but of all the things we have to worry about -- and there are many -- terrorism isn't necessarily one of the ones worth fretting over very much. of course, we all do and will, but the media plays a role in that.

It's the new cold war.

Um, the 'cold civil war' is just the culture wars reheated, plus black President - so many of the crypto-racists I know do the 'I'm an independent voter' dodge while exercising their historic entitlement to pretend they're some sort of overseer class for those uppity brown and black people.

― "good luck, sycophants!" (suzy), Monday, 8 November 2010 18:15 (4 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ladies and gentlemen, the Ted Cruz campaign:

Another of Cruz's campaign co-chairs in the Palmetto State, state Rep. Bill Chumley (R), voted against opening debate on the flag. Chumley also told CNN on Tuesday night that he believed it more urgent to debate the fact that no one present at the massacre of nine black Charleston churchgoers was armed.

"We need to be focusing on the nine families that are left and see that this doesn’t happen again," Chumley said in the CNN interview. "These people sat in there, and waited their turn to be shot. That’s sad. But somebody in there with the means of self defense could have stopped this. And we’d have had less funerals than we’re having."

are you fucking kidding me with this

jfc

it's almost like he is not actually focusing on the nine families and their needs or feelings

how tone deaf can we get: let's find out

let me guess -- he'll "apologize if i offended anyone" and then get reelected

what kind of Christian expects people to bring guns to church?

honestly wonder if these people would pass a turing test

what this does is highlight the gross negligence of churches who are not providing designated bible study snipers

ugh that was too glib, sorry *recanted*

It's horrible that people are saying this. Do they really think this way? This is what the head of the NRA says, so it could just be them doing what they are told. It's a horrible thing to say in any case. Even if they don't really think that, and are just saying it for sales, it still comes across as cynically valuing money over human life.

Disrespectful.

^^ welcome to US politics, glad you could join us

Echo chamber of anti-human shit.

new thread name

It didn't take Chumley long.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/william-chumley-apology-charleston

That NRA stance is culturally ignorant and insensitive. That was a Civil Rights Movement church, they're not likely to bring guns to a bible study.

It is puke-inducing how ignorant some of these gun people are about the Civil Rights Movement, you can tell they haven't spent any time at all learning the values and teachings of the movement. Which is racist no matter how much they deny it.

His main regret is NOT living in a cowboy movie fantasy.

i was thinking the other night, it would take someone coming into an NRA convention, totally kevlared up, throwing two fist-fulls of live grenades into the crowd and then spraying everyone around him with as much automatic gunfire as possible before being eventually knock down by whatever gunfire people manage to return; before they are willing to have any productive dialogue about gun reform.

― AKA Thermo Thinwall (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 10:41 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Speaking of cowboy movie fantasies.

It didn't take Chumley long.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/william-chumley-apology-charleston

― it's not arugula science (WilliamC), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 2:03 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"I misspoke. What I meant to say was, 'I am a sack of human shit and as soon as I done with this statement I am going to go walk out in front of a fast-moving bus."

Charleston's Mayor Joseph P. Riley, Jr. has set up the "Mother Emanuel Hope" fund . The fund will help family members pay for funerals, counseling and other financial needs. Donations can be online, by texting 'prayforcharleston' to 843-606-5995 additionally you can walk into any of Wells Fargo's 6,200 banking locations now you can also make a check out to "Mother Emanuel Hope Fund" and send it to the address below:

Mother Emanuel Hope Fund

C/O City of Charleston

P.O. Box 304 Charleston, SC 29402

The Lowcountry Ministries -- Reverend Pinckney Fund will be administered by the Palmetto Project, a non-profit dedicated to improving lives in South Carolina. These funds will be used to support local initiates serving Rev. Pinckney's church , vulnerable populations and youth projects he was passionate about. You can donate online or by mailing a check to:

Lowcountry Ministries -- Reverend Pinckney Fund

c/o The Palmetto Project

6296 Rivers Avenue #100

North Charleston, SC 29406

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/iyw-help-charleston-heal/

They also have a Paypal donation button on the website:

http://www.emanuelamechurch.org/#

tbf to Chumley (ok not really) how often do you see reactionary piece of shit racists argue that black men should be more well armed

I mean we're at a place where Confederate Flag-loving white guy is saying "black people need more guns" it's fucking bonkers

that argument is not uncommon among libertarians

thanks for link to donation site

I don't think they're all racist in the sense of disliking / hating black people, but I think it's racist in the sense that these people devote considerable time to their cause while not taking time to learn that civil rights people tend not to agree with them on guns. They should respect and understand their opposition more - black churches are a significant part of that.

Of that opposition, I mean. The gun groups choose to demonize the opposition, which isn't civil when you're packing.

great jelani cobb talk of the town piece about terrorism and white supremacy

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/29/terrorism-in-charleston

friend of mine wrote this re: the roots of roof's radicalization

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/24/3673580/lone-wolf-origins/

Upthread I noticed someone quoting the usual yahoo internet comments to the effect that 'if the pastor were armed, this wouldn't have been as bad as it was'. All I can say is that when the Black Panthers said much the same as these brainless NRA gun lovers, that all black men and women should arm themselves with an arsenal equal to their enemies' weaponry, it led to the FBI besieging them in Oakland, pouring a hail of thousands of bullets at them through the walls of their apartment, and these same yahoos were cheering for the police.

― Aimless, Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:18 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this just gets more surreal.

but btw i kinda don't think contemplating an armed zealot killing a bunch of people (even if they are NRA people) is a good mental habit to get in, even if it is more "sad thought experiment" than fanfic/fantasy.

http://mic.com/articles/121303/black-baptist-church-in-north-carolina-set-on-fire

Are you fucking kidding me goddamit no

holy hell.

hoping desperately against hope that this is something, anything other than what it seems.

Yeah, holding out for a secretary trying to cover up embezzelment or something.

man, this country.

this eulogy is so beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvXxDWdcYkI

btw:

https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/614527435510386689

Three black churches burned in the last four days:
Macon, GA (June 23)
Charlotte, NC (June 24)
Warrenville, SC (June 26)

yeah, I have held off on talking about that on Facebook given the Supreme Court celebrations but

three?!? motherfucker

fucking hell

I...

eulogy is/was really moving & inspiring, def worth watching if you havent seen it

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/president-obama-took-me-to-church-today-1714260805

yeah i watched that yesterday and teared up quite a bit, prob his finest hour as a speaker

The deadspin article is worth a read even if you've already watched the speech, imo

more on the church fires, of which there were two more yesterday

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/26/string-of-nighttime-fires-hit-predominately-black-churches-in-four-southern-states/

Sister of accused Charleston shooter asks for donations to cover canceled wedding

as much as the plea is a little misguided, I think someone who had to cancel their wedding because their brother went on a killing spree deserves some sympathy.

Yeah I mean, I'm not donating but this doesn't really strike me as egregious, particularly when you look at how much money can go into a wedding; trying to recoup $5K from that doesn't strike me as unreasonable at all, particularly from a circumstance that they didn't actually create.

There is an awful lot of "she is his brother so therefore she is a racist right-wing redneck" in the comments (and in the article, starting with that photo, jesus christ)

Er, sister.

The picture is from CMT show My Big Redneck Wedding.

Well, I didn't think it was from the GoFundMe, that was kind of my point.

(Though I'm wrong to say it starts there, the photo is further down than the "The Wedding Klanner" subhead)

Given that the entire narrative around this dude is that he was alienated from his family for being a big fucking racist, this whole thing is extra gross.

yup. why do people write and publish things gratuitously cruel? ugh.

what a gross and horrible article

like, if the sister was fundraising to pay for getting a counter-narrative about her brother out there because we haven't heard the whole story and there's some mythical information out there that would make the racially-motivated murder of nine people make sense, I could understand this article

I could get behind it if her wedding was simply going to the courthouse to get registered and all the donations went to victims instead.

well like I said, I'm not behind it but I don't begrudge it, either

i guess i don't understand why someone's reaction to a horrible event would be to compound the suffering (albeit in a way that's trivial compared to the suffering her brother caused)

it doesn't seem to come from a place of genuine anger and concern, more like trolling

IIRC Wonkette lives on schadenfreude; they just used to be better at picking targets

i honestly cannot tell the million clickbait blog "news" sites apart and i'm not sure i want to expend the time and energy to do so

well Wonkette was "the mean political website everyone on ILX liked because an ILXor was running it"

otoh I wouldn't say that ILX has always given wonkette a free pass for ruining people's marriage plans

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/09/12/an-american-void/

photos to this are amazing

jury has sentenced dylann roof to death

Given the current state of the law and the evidence, that was the correct sentence. But the death penalty does nothing for society other than degrade it.

I mostly agree. I gleefully await Dylan Roof's execution.

I've been thinking about this a lot since it was published: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/07/opinion/dylann-roof-shouldnt-get-the-death-penalty.html Not intended as a comment on anybody's else's position - just something that's stuck with me.