THE IRISHMAN, A Martin Scorsese Picture with de Niro, Pacino, Pesci, Keitel

A 40-year gangster epic going into production in the next month. Pacino plays Jimmy Hoffa, Bobby Cannavale is Joey gallo, Ray Romano a Teamster lawyer. Produced and distributed by Netflix.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1302006/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sheeran

finally, the scorsese/romano team-up we've been clamouring for all these years

Who is playing the irishman

noted irishman robert o'niro iirc

Cannavale a good choice

I'm not sure thats working for me

maybe look at dirty grandpa and educate yourself a bit before you continue embarrassing yourself online like this

lol

I hope Netflix finds away to block everyone who skipped SILENCE from watching this.

*a way, ugh

noted irishman robert o'niro iirc

lmao

robert the neary

de Niro is part Irish on his dad's side

who cares, but ilx's proud ignorance sure covers the waterfront

Good take on the Netflix funding:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/05/10/hollywood-was-right-to-say-no-to-martin-scorseses-the-irishman/#49ae5b1140c7

aye but the real sheehan was part swedish, where's our fuckin' irish swede in the lead role

Also, De Niro's character in Goodfellas was Irish, too.

cultural appropriation imo, #boycotttheirishman

Is this the one where the main gag is deniro playing a 10yo or whatever

not goin that young, but some CG a la Benjamin Button to reverse the aging early, it seems.

Look morbs far be it from me but the movie is called the fuckin irishman mon ta fuck like

script by Steve Zaillian, who i guess is newly hot from "The Night Of"

tbf i think the titular irishman here is irish in that uniquely american sense of 'had an ancestor who once grew a potato'

notallpaddies

Robert Anthony De Niro[4] was born on August 17, 1943, in the Greenwich Village area of Manhattan, New York, the son of painters Virginia Admiral and Robert De Niro Sr.[5] He is of Irish and Italian descent on his father's side,[6] while his mother had Dutch, English, French, and German ancestry.[7]

it's descent all the way down
http://jimhillmedia.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles-00-00-00-00-03/7318.Happiest_2D00_8.jpg_2D00_500x0.jpg

All due respect it's not called the Italian Irish Dutch English French German man now is it

^^^would watch

that'll be on the next Fall album

It's the role he was born several times to play

to be fair robert deniro is generally cast as italian american characters despite the fact that he's only a quarter italian so him playing an irishman is not a huge stretch

let's all just agree that ardal o'hanlon should be cast in the lead and move on with our lives

always suspected Scorcese had one more gangster film in him, one about the top-level guys that *really* run shit from the back of a grocery store in Casino - it would complete the tetralogy, going up the ladder from small-time hoods in Mean Streets to the "soldiers" in Goodfellas up through the higher-ranking mafioso in "Casino".

this could still totally suck of course, idk. skeptical about the CGI aging aspect.

would also say that sylvester stallone's jimmy hoffa movie "f.i.s.t." is the last word in union/mob epics

Scorsese keeps a-goin' til everyone spells his name right

lol sory

script by Steve Zaillian, who i guess is newly hot from "The Night Of"

You mean hot again? Certainly Scorsese has been hot for him for years.

the night of was good ...

for me to poop on

I think Zaillian only adapted Gangs of New York for MS?

Yeah, you're right.

Would love to see a Marty comedy about disorganized crime. Bits of The Departed are the funniest shit ever, as are bits of GoodFellas, but he hasn't done a comedy since After Hours, right?

i suppose some people describe that abominable last one w/ DiCaprio as a comedy, as a plea.

it's definitely funny

(also godawful)

Bits of The Departed are the funniest shit ever

"I'm the guy who does his fucking job, you must be the other guy" vs. the rat symbolizes obviousness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dFYHNCpy4

Wolf ... Oh yeah, I guess that was funny (though classically speaking, more a tragedy than a comedy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTaVxTmB5k4

haven't seen his cable Public Speaking w/ Fran Lebowitz

WoWS was non-stop lolz for me

but I thought Morbz was referring to Shutter Island hahah

WOWS completely a comedy

GoodFellas *is* a comedy, really.

When they found Sepe in the meat
truck, he was frozen so stiff it
took them two days to thaw him out
for the autopsy.
(pause)
Still, I never saw Jimmy so happy.
He was like a kid.

Hugo had a pretty heavy comedic streak... does anyone remember it winning 5 Oscars?

WoWS died when McConnahey left

WOWS is basically a confirmation that Scorsese is an exceptional comedy director, he's always been good with comic timing though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM44eaasx0Y

well that's not the scene i meant to put in, it's more about the actors here, but it's pretty damn funny

WOWS completely a comedy

I was just being pedantic about it. Classically, tragedy is when the characters' fates can't be averted (hence, Wolf ends up more or less where it begins). A comedy is when characters end up different than they began. Over the years "tragedy" has come to mean "sad," but twas not always so. Romeo & Juliet is a perfect example of a tragedy/comedy hybrid. I may be muddling this ...

Comedy is when I lol

As discussed, that makes a lot of Scorsese comedy.

anyway, from the wiki on Sheeran:

"The assassination of President Kennedy was a Mafia hit, according to Sheeran, who did not actively participate in the plot, but who transported three rifles to the alleged assassins via David Ferrie."

Pesci played Ferrie in JFK, maybe he can do a dual role.

to be fair robert deniro is generally cast as italian american characters

Aside from young Vito Corleone and Jake LaMotta, his most well-known roles are almost certainly named Travis Bickle and Jack Byrnes. Other well-known roles include noted Italians Rupert Pupkin, Jimmy Doyle, Michael Vronsky, 'Noodles' Aaronson, Harry Tuttle, Jack Walsh, Jimmy Conway, Max Cady, Ace Rothstein, Neil McCauley . . . gtf with "generally," I'd say fewer than 10% of his roles are recognizable or inferably "Italian."

Ferrie how?

XP Scorsese casts him as Irish, that's your case p much

nah, that's 7 different directors accounted for there. (Scorsese, Cimono, Leone, Mann, Gilliam, Jay Roach, and Martin Brest.)

In fact, aside from Marty, the only times he's been cast as unequivocally Italian have been in movies nobody saw, "Shark Tale" (playing off his Godfather role), and Harold Ramis's "Analyze This/That."

Are you mcsplaining rite now

you fuckers are darraghmac is making this thread tedious in an entirely different way than i expected you would

If I've only one thing on you it's unpredictability bucko

How many FPs will I get if I say that #actually I am wopsplaining?

Ah jaysus

Who is playing the Irishman

Is the obvious question. At least DiCaprio isn't in it.

So CG bob d doing an Irish accent, sounds fun I'm in

to be fair robert deniro is generally cast as italian american characters

Aside from young Vito Corleone and Jake LaMotta, his most well-known roles are almost certainly named Travis Bickle and Jack Byrnes. Other well-known roles include noted Italians Rupert Pupkin, Jimmy Doyle, Michael Vronsky, 'Noodles' Aaronson, Harry Tuttle, Jack Walsh, Jimmy Conway, Max Cady, Ace Rothstein, Neil McCauley . . . gtf with "generally," I'd say fewer than 10% of his roles are recognizable or inferably "Italian."

― Old Lynch's Sex Paragraph (Phil D.), Tuesday, August 8, 2017 10:05 AM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there's at least 20 films he's appeared in where he plays a character with an italian name. he has made a ton of films mind you, so this probably only accounts for a 1/5 or so of them.

Frank Sheeran was born in Darby, Pennsylvania. Not the accent you expect. xp

Frank Sheeran was born in Darby, Pennsylvania,[2] a small working-class borough on the outskirts of Philadelphia. His family was of Irish and Swedish descent. He grew to his full adult height of 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) while serving in the Army during World War II.

Pesci should have played him.

Frank Sheeran was born in Darby, Pennsylvania. Not the accent you expect. xp

Ok now I have one foot in and one foot out

I thought silence was really good. Does anyone rep for deniro anymore?

He grew to his full adult height of 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) while serving in the Army during World War II

hoping this scene makes it into the film tbh

The American.

XP lol

finally, the scorsese/romano team-up we've been clamouring for all these years

― for sale: clown shoes, never worn (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, August 8, 2017 11:33 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Everybody Loves Gimme Shelter

yeah the presence of RR is a misgiving

I thought silence was really good. Does anyone rep for deniro anymore?

all joking aside, he was really good in dirty grandpa

I never watched Everybody Loves Raymond and really have zero interest in him but found him surprisingly decent in Vinyl (which was otherwise awful) and the Big Sick

I thought silence was really good. Does anyone rep for deniro anymore?
all joking aside, he was really good in dirty grandpa

― for sale: clown shoes, never worn (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, August 8, 2017 10:43 AM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also irish-american. establishing his bonafides as the actor for irish-american roles in hollywood

look i cannae deny the man's a chameleon but

tbf i'd probably i'd have a problem if it was called irish grandpa

more still if it was dirty irish

"My Big Fat Irish Grandpa". Sequel?

He could amaze us all by doing the Jake La Motta putting weight on thing again.

Grand fellas

I liked Romano in "Vinyl" but Cannavale has no range and is hammy af

Range... Pesci?

all joking aside, he was really good in dirty grandpa

Also delivered in The Intern.

I liked Romano in "Vinyl" but Cannavale has no range and is hammy af

― Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Tuesday, August 8, 2017 12:04 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some bold opinions here

I agree Cannavale is pretty one-note. also he was *terrible* in VINYL. acceptable as loathsome villain in Boardwalk Empire I suppose.

He was ok in BW but, again, he just had to play an ott psychopath mobster without nuance and he did the job.

Who is he playing in this, Peig Sayers?

emmy award winning, tony nominated actor bobby cannavale is good imo

he's no ray romano obv

I like him

I dunno if that counters the criticism of him or anythinh

he makes a mean tuna casserole

I think there's about a 60% chance this could be very good and a 20% chance it could be great and a 5% chance it could be better than Goodfellas

#pesci

it's their last hurrah isn't it

de Niro said a couple years ago he was gonna make another w/ Marty "before we die"

the Joe Gallo role seems suited to Cannavale though i get Luca Brasi vibes from the real Gallo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Joseph_„Joey“_Gallo.jpg

on location in Paterson

http://gothamist.com/2017/09/17/jim_jarmusch_is_why_martin_scorsese.php

Nice.

Behind the scenes Al Pacino, Bobby DeNiro & Martin Scorsese. First time these 3 heavy hitters are workin together. The Irishman drops in ‘19 pic.twitter.com/rMy7FFW2lA

— 🇸🇻MojadoULove2Hate (@GoldenSt8OfMind) October 12, 2017

Can't wait! Anyone read the book?

Has Scorsese directed Pacino before at all?

no

I thought that was Alec Baldwin in the picture at first.

Al may be wearing more prosthetics than he did in Dick Tracy

Just that now it's his hips

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/500/0*O1cRw-28sMl60aQd.jpg

“Jimmy and Russell were very much alike. They were solid muscle from head to toe. They were both short, even for those days. Russ was about 5'8". Jimmy was down around 5'5". In those days I used to be 6'4", and I had to bend down to them for private talks. They were very smart from head to toe. They had mental toughness and physical toughness. But in one important way they were different. Russ was very low-key and quiet, soft-spoken even when he got mad. Jimmy exploded every day just to keep his temper in shape, and he loved publicity.”

Having Pacino play the loud one and Pesci the quiet one just don't make no sense

Pesci should have played the loud one and Pacino should have also played the loud one

Pacino has been not-loud maybe 3x in 25 years

Pesci may have lost his volume w/ age

His preferred mode of elocution now is a soft croon

a wrap

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf9LhVKhTPJ/?hl=en&taken-by=martinscorsese_

opens the NYFF on Sept 27

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/martin-scorsese-the-irishman-first-look-new-york-film-festival-1202161441/

NYFF festival director Kent Jones, who previously worked for Scorsese’s World Cinema Foundation, heaped praise on the new film in a glowing statement: “‘The Irishman’ is so many things: rich, funny, troubling, entertaining and, like all great movies, absolutely singular,” he said. “It’s the work of masters, made with a command of the art of cinema that I’ve seen very rarely in my lifetime, and it plays out at a level of subtlety and human intimacy that truly stunned me. All I can say is that the minute it was over my immediate reaction was that I wanted to watch it all over again.”

hmmmmmmmm

good thing Jones is there to prop up this upstart

Noticed this in the cast list on wiki: Jim Norton as Don Rickles

I hear Don spinning

My first thought was, why would Don Rickles be spinning over Bishop Brennan? Then I googled to discover there's another Jim Norton I've never heard of and who's as well known in the UK as Don Rickles was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Expe7hf6MU

looks rich, funny, troubling, entertaining and, like all great movies, absolutely singular tbh

when I was reading Ellroy's fictional version of Hoffa in American Tabloid. I pictured him much more like Pesci than Pacino tbh!

When did "teaser trailer" become a thing? What makes that a "teaser" and not a "trailer?"

Another trailer trend I've seen (not this one) is where the trailer includes sort of a rapid fire sequence of scenes before the trailer begins, like a micro-trailer for the trailer.

There's generally another longer trailer more focused on narrative, which distinguishes it from a teaser I guess

The micro-trailer thing is annoying, yeah. It's a social media thing. Six seconds to grab people's attention, etc.

"You might be demonstrating the failure to show appreciation."

always suspected Scorcese had one more gangster film in him, one about the top-level guys that *really* run shit from the back of a grocery store in Casino - it would complete the tetralogy, going up the ladder from small-time hoods in Mean Streets to the "soldiers" in Goodfellas up through the higher-ranking mafioso in "Casino".

I hope this is that movie, it kinda looks like it is

You could--depends how you feel about Mean Streets--argue that that line moves in the wrong direction, and that he should instead reverse course and go make a film about the two teenagers who try to buy fireworks from the small-time hoods in Mean Streets.

The CG in THE IRISHMAN trailer (and any trailer, for that matter) is not finished and will probably be worked on until right before the release date. The trailer was probably cut with very early renders and have improved by several generations in the current edit.

— Jason Overbeck (@bentclouds) July 31, 2019

People should not watch trailers and they should definitely not talk about them in the depressing, exhausting way that they like to do, on the internet

As if watching Robert De Niro playing 6ft 4 Irishman needed such hard sell tactics.

Jimmy Hoffa was alive until at least 1975, which is a relief as I'd been worried Scorsese wouldn't be able to get "Gimme Shelter" into THE IRISHMAN.

— Scott Von Doviak (@vondoviak) July 31, 2019

prob no Dropkick Murphys at least

I so badly want to dunk on this movie where Joe Pesci's rotting corpse plays a CGI mobster, but Silence was so good that I'm actually inclined to give it the benfit of the doubt.

Also the CGI doesnt look that bad in the trailer tbh

I’m not kidding myself, it’s going to be awful and distracting. But I’ll still watch the f out of this

I found out there's an interview with Hoffa on YouTube from my very own hometown's ABC station, WEWS-TV5. It appeared on Cleveland's Morning Exchange, and guessing by the age of host Fred Griffith, I'm guessing it's around 1972 or 1973.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCyZ9-AVNWE&t=129s

that was... not the topic I was expecting

A hero of labor!

Wild to me that Hoffa's son,also James,is current Teamsters president.

I will see this dumb movie in the theatre and I will enjoy it

Wild to me that Hoffa's son,also James,is current Teamsters president.

My union boss. (Really, I am a Teamster: https://teamsters2010.org/ )

hey guys it’s our friend Ned! boy i was just saying to the fellas what a real stand up guy you are.
*sweats*
😬

I heard he paints houses.

I'm glad we had this talk.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l2JdZTV3EFZaKYkKc/giphy.gif

Thought you were a librarian

Is it because of moving heavy shelving?

There's a new Robbie Robertson single feat. Van Morrison - "I Hear You Paint Houses" - maybe gunning for Best Song?

xpost -- check the link, m'friend.

ay Ned this guy botherin' you? cuz me and the boys could take him for a ride

I didn’t mean nuttin’ by it, honest! I swear!

yeah he didn’t mean nuttin by it *snickers*

I am a library guy. There's a large number of public employee unions as part of the Teamsters setup.

Anyway, about your kneecaps, and these cement shoes.

One book goes in dat stack, da uddah goes in dat one...whaddaya gonna do?

Ned, need some books? I got some that fell off the back of the truck.

Lol CJV

I want an equal amount of books in each rack

Looking forward to seeing this movie.

The only book that matters is your... aw never mind.

this could be shit, but it could also be awesome

in other words, a 21st century Scorsese pic

And funnily enough I just got my latest national Teamster magazine detailing a variety of organizing successes, the strong state of the union’s financing and the silencing of dissent from any ILXors who give me lip. I’m sorry that last part seems to have snuck in there.

(Speaking frankly, our union fully affiliating with the Teamsters some years back was one of the two best moves we’ve done since I’ve joined, the first being a general reorganization shortly after I started working in the system fulltime. Our last contract negotiations went heavily in our favor and I’ll be interested to see how the next one goes in a couple of years.)

I really loved Silence, it was my favorite Scorsese film in at least a couple of decades

Has anyone ever seen the forgotten norman jewison directed union epic f.i.s.t. starring sylvester stallone as a Jimmy Hoffa type figure? It's very bad.

https://youtu.be/uiBqdmelCVk

Ha, actually I did forget about that. Meaning I forgot it existed, never actually saw it.

+1 for Silence as well.

Good that indie theaters will get a big revenue boost:

The Irishman will open Nov. 1 in select indie cinemas willing to carry the drama. More than three weeks later — or 26 days to be exact — it will debut Nov. 27 on Netflix, much as Alfonso Cuarón's Oscar-nominated Roma did last year. This rules out the sort of big-screen blitz Scorsese and other seasoned directors are used to, unless something changes at the 11th hour.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/netflix-forgoes-wide-release-martin-scorseses-irishman-1234382

They did the same thing for Roma, it’s not good at all, it’s insulting, 3 weeks is nothing. Let the movie play for 3 months and then the theaters make money

Can’t wait

Liotta in this ? At least a cameo would be welcome

All my life, I wanted to be an Irishman

Now I’m just another schnuck pushing chantix

Yes, Netflix loses here, but so do theater owners. Wolf of Wall Street, Scorsese’s last star-driven commercial movie, grossed $400M worldwide. https://t.co/TqZBOODe6T

— Matthew Belloni (@THRMattBelloni) August 27, 2019

That'll mean a Lightbox opening in Toronto (where Roma screened)...I guess "indie" is anything that's not Cineplex, but it's hard for me to think of the Lightbox (home to TIFF) as an indie--they're about as un-indie as it gets in terms of corporate sponsorship.

this is 210 minutes long

lol wow

I’m pretty interested in the mob history they’re obviously going to touch on particularly w/r/t Angelo Bruno (since he’s played by Keitel I assume it will be a major part of the story). Also part of the film will include Crazy Joe Gallo, referenced briefly in a Goodfellas voice-over :

It was a glorious time. And wiseguys were all over the place. It was before Apalachin and before Crazy Joe decided to take on a boss and start a war.

Number None at 7:21 27 Aug 19

this is 210 minutes long

so Avengers length

Or the length of a studio comedy nowadays

(Ok that's an exaggeration)

Jesus Christ lmfao @ 210 minutes

MARTY

Once Upon a Time on Netflix

40-something minutes of it is just the guys kicking back and listening to Let It Bleed.

Gun, meet mouth

I know some of u motherfuckers watched the 70" of Hateful Eight

can you imagine the noise from a camera running six-foot-wide film? they would have had to shoot from the next state over

Jesus Christ lmfao @ 210 minutes

really, given all the megalong comic-book shitburgers huh

Yea the 4.5 hour long "Once Upon a Time in Asgard" was kinda pretentious

right? I'm here for 210 minutes by Marty

can you imagine the noise from a camera running six-foot-wide film? they would have had to shoot from the next state over

― quelle sprocket damage (sic), Tuesday, August 27, 2019 10:46 PM bookmarkflaglink

At least my Stonehenge was big enough!

:)

oops I xposted this and then left the building for 5.5 hours without noticing

it’s not good at all, it’s insulting

Yep. Roma probably would have had better first-weekend streaming numbers with 3 months word-of-mouth and Oscar nominations.

Right now would be a perfect time to bring in the French 90-day window just for PR purposes, as Disney is choking theatres with their requirements & restrictions, and Netflix doesn't need to curry favour with them in order to get a year of Pixar's third-last release or w/e

best of all, 2 films in a row w/out DiCaprio

right? I'm here for 210 minutes by Marty

So am I, his last two were fantastic, I'm just... stunned whenever I see that number.

I know some of u motherfuckers watched the 70" of Hateful Eight

Well yeah, but Tarantino at least put in an intermission. But I'm also apprehensive of that runtime. If Scorsese is going to work with Netflix, he might as well have made it a miniseries.

sometimes movies are long. not everything needs to get chopped up into bits.

I saw a 13.5-hour film this month, clowns

I knew you were holding out for the four-hour cut of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Morbs

Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King was only 200 minutes, tho it felt like 800

It has it that Hoffa was cremated in Michigan the same day by a friendly funeral director, which is the only thing that ever made sense. https://t.co/tL2ZEEoeMo

— Richard M. Nixon (@dick_nixon) August 28, 2019

Meh.

40-something minutes of it is just the guys kicking back and listening to Let It Bleed.

― a bevy of supermodels, musicians and Lena Dunham (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, August 27, 2019 9:28 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

irl lol

210 minutes makes me depressed more so because this is a huge movie that will (hopefully) look and feel great on a big screen... in multiplexes... around the world..............
not fuckin Netflix!
because 210 minutes guarantees people are going to watch this non-sequentially

am going to see this in the theatre and i don't really care if other people watch it in segments on their laptop

I wonder if Netflix ever raised the idea of breaking it up into a limited series

xp I would've been really bummed if WOWS, a great audience movie, was a Netflix thing. and if you're not in a major city, who knows if this thing will play anywhere near?

it’s not good at all, it’s insulting, 3 weeks is nothing.

turns out it's going to be less than three weeks except in NYC and LA

In an alternative universe, Harvey Weinstein is shaving 75 minutes off of it.

Just saw @TheIrishmanFilm. Lovvvved. De Niro is a tour de force. Chemistry with Pesci and Pacino is magical. Everything you want in a Scorsese film and more. Debuting trailer tonight LIVE with Bobby D. #FallonLive

— jimmy fallon (@jimmyfallon) September 25, 2019

Well I know all I need to know.

He doesn't just give those compliments out yo

guessing Fallonface wasnt wild for Silence

if he shits these out so he can get the money together to make more films like Silence then godspeed imo

well, he wanted to make this for 10+ years, he says

Looking forward to “Gimme Shelter” with you ibstruments tonight.

heh *toy instruments*

THE IRISHMAN is good! takes 90 minutes to lock in & clear out the cobwebs / adjust to CGI, but the scope is a virtue, the performances are killer (Joseph! Frank! Pesci!) & it eventually coheres into a heart-stopping meditation on the myopia of time. an old man movie for the ages.

— david ehrlich (@davidehrlich) September 27, 2019

THE IRISHMAN finds its own signature—as a study of haunted men and broken loyalty—a little too late (well after two hours). Until then, it’s a slab of Scorsese’s core actors reminding you of older movies. But many of these conversations are electrifying.

— Joshua Rothkopf (@joshrothkopf) September 27, 2019

Cool, a movie that doesn't really get going until it's two hours in. Neat.

"adjust to the CGI" = bad news

the CGI in this needed to be legitimately amazing because anything less is just a Polar Express/Avatar joke

those tweets make it sound like The Aviator

Scorsese knows what his audience is hoping for: glory days, resurrected. But he also understands the impossibility of anyone being exactly as they once were. So he weaves that longing into both The Irishman‘s text and its technique, presenting Sheeran’s youthful recollections … as augmented hoodlum reveries that will soon catch up with the character’s spiritually impoverished present.

https://www.slantmagazine.com/film/review-the-irishman-is-shrouded-in-an-alluringly-funereal-aura/

the more nuanced reviews of this have me more excited to see it. i'm ok with CGI, the trailers look okay as far as that goes. having just seen Samuel L Jackson w/25 years shaved off for Captain Marvel, i think it can work well.

Was too caught up in figuring out the maybe-cg-maybe-not-cg faces in the trailer that I barely got a sense of the plot. But sorta real, sorta unreal cg a la Fincher is its own aesthetic that I actually kind of enjoy?

Anyway Scorsese is (miraculously, judging against contemporaries) still capable of surprising and doing good shit so I’ve got hopes.

The CGI in Silence was really poor.

Good chat between MS and QT:

https://www.dga.org/Craft/DGAQ/All-Articles/1904-Fall-2019/Conversation-Scorsese-Tarantino.aspx?fbclid=IwAR0XVAgPO3Ls8n8hdGknmGN7TwmW0BmA_wQ0h8krzZldnUX6j7xq5mpnpCk

Thanks for that

Great interview, thanks!

yeah thx for posting that was great (even if I only understood like half of it)

koresky's take

http://www.reverseshot.org/reviews/entry/2590/irishman

initial roundup

https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/6612-martin-scorsese-s-the-irishman

All my favorites. I'm cautiously optimistic.

I'm not.

What fire and music?

we know Pacino can't match Scarface, Eric

(ptui)

Pacino being in Scarface automatically makes it De Palma's worst movie.

you pass over Carlito's Way?

just a kazoo with some sparkles

Bookmark this great piece from @BilgeEbiri and read it **after** you see “The Irishman”. https://t.co/FmQgtrF5LB

— Todd "Your Shot is Targeted for Today" Vaziri (@tvaziri) September 30, 2019

fuck that, i'm gonna read it now and no-one can stop me

Spoiler: people die in this movie

whoa

A friend of mine just referred to them as The Italian Beatles. pic.twitter.com/mhv8ezjNnb

— Sean Burns (@SeanMBurns) September 27, 2019

Gian, Paolo, Giorgio, and Reengo

Who is Pete Best

surely John Cazale

FREDOOOOO

people losing their minds over Scorsese saying Marvel movies are "not cinema"

if anyone has the right to say what is and what isn't cinema it's Scorsese

you could chuck all of his own films out and he'd still be one of the most important film preservationists in history

Scorsese otm for the most part

I still crack up sometimes about Scorsese's essay for the millennium issue of Rolling Stones where he talks about industry people telling him "he should check out The Waterboy!".

they're more like a marketing exercise

xp

Scorsese said what needed to be said. Constantly. By as many people as possible. This from a fan of disaster movies.

well, Marty is also a fan of DeMille, including the spectacles like Samson and Delilah and Ten Commandments

those still had recognizable human dynamics embedded in them

i mostly like the Marvel movies as entertainment but he's pretty otm, also there's the minor film tragedy of so many good actors being booked for all these movies and having less time for other work. pretty sure 90% of Robert Downey Jr's screen time the past decade-plus has been scenes of him talking trash to Captain America while surrounded by glowing consoles, or in extreme close-up while his Iron Man suit short-circuits for the fiftieth time.

I do think there's a difference between the MCU and pre-2008 comic book movies. The Raimi Spider-Man trilogy is great for what it is. the MCU movies I've seen are just inert, totally lifeless

spider-man 2 is still my model for what a comic book movie should be

yeah the first two really are the gold standard. ditto for first two X-Men movies

where are these comments of Scorsese's btw

Don’t ask Martin Scorsese his thoughts on the record-breaking “Avengers: Endgame” because he hasn’t seen it, nor will he ever see it. The legendary filmmaker recently dismissed the Marvel Cinematic Universe during an interview with Empire magazine, saying that Marvel movies do not possess the traits that make cinema truly special.

“I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema,” Scorsese told Empire. “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

Scorsese is fresh off universal praise for his new drama “The Irishman,” which debuted on opening night of the 2019 New York Film Festival. The gangster epic, starring Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, and Joe Pesci, debuted to instant Oscar buzz and is considered a top contender to land nominations for its actors, plus Best Picture and Best Director bids, among others. Disney and Marvel Studios is also launching an Oscar campaign for “Avengers: Endgame,” which grossed over $2.7 billion worldwide this year to become the highest-grossing movie in history (unadjusted for inflation).

Scorsese’s thoughts on Marvel movies recall a similar opinion shared by Ethan Hawke in August 2018. The “First Reformed” actor told Film Stage that moviegoers were treating superhero movies as if they were great works of art, which is not the case.

“Now we have the problem that they tell us ‘Logan’ is a great movie,” Hawke said. “Well, it’s a great superhero movie. It still involves people in tights with metal coming out of their hands. It’s not Bresson. It’s not Bergman. But they talk about it like it is. I went to see ‘Logan’ ‘cause everyone was like, ‘This is a great movie’ and I was like, ‘Really? No, this is a fine superhero movie.’ There’s a difference, but big business doesn’t think there’s a difference. Big business wants you to think that this is a great film because they wanna make money off of it.”

twitter I think

i do think some of the Marvel movies that step a bit outside of the primary "Cinematic Universe" storyline exhibit more energy or creativity or flashes of humanity (Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy, Black Panther, the Ant Mans), but there's only been a couple of them I would ever want to see again, even though i have liked most of them. but it's just the streaming TV model brought to film imo.

I think the MCU's "quality control" policy just smooths everything out and makes it so punishingly bland, obviously this is better/safer business than rolling the dice (like Hollywood did for a century), but if you can't hit the lows of idk, 2005 Fantastic Four or 2003 Hulk (not that bad imo), then you can't make a Spider-Man 2 or X2.

there's a really good book by Ben Fritz called The Big Picture about all this stuff

Even arguing about this narcissism of Marvel differences means "they" have won.

yup, goalposts successfully moved

the Spider-Man and X-Men trilogies were not made by Marvel

scorsese is 100 percent otm, if anything he wasn't mean enough

the Spider-Man and X-Men trilogies were not made by Marvel

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019

does it matter?

I like the 2004 Spider-Man and the first two X-Men, and lord knows the thousands of genre films I've watched in my life boast inventive performances, unusual inversions of expectations, thrilling action sequences, and so on; but if you're still a working critic in 2019 the pressure to review these things from publicists depresses me, as is the Box Office Mojo ethos of constantly discussing grosses (even my students taking my elective film class chat about grosses like Madison did John Locke). I got six emails wondering why the hell I wasn't interested in attending the preview for Joker. I told the publicist, whom I know well, "Traffic is more fun."

imagine dedicating your life to movies, spending all your time either making them yourself or trying to preserve and promote them, and suddenly it's 2019 and the only movies anyone wants to talk about or spend money on involve cgi raccoons or "edgy" takes on the clown who fights batman

I'm skanky enough to think, "What's the difference between devoting a couple years to 'developing' a Howard Hughes biopic and developing a Joker film?" I gotta say.

the Spider-Man and X-Men trilogies were not made by Marvel

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019

does it matter?

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, October 4, 2019 2:03 PM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Marvel Studios has a completely different operating philosophy with a built-in fanbase that will see whatever they release no matter what. the MCU is a decades spanning project with every film relating to and effecting the others. no middlemen, no risks, no bombs like Daredevil. that sort of quality control just fuckin' smooths it all out into a paste. Sony taking on Marvel's IP and rolling the dice with is an entirely different situation.

I'm not doing it justice but all of this is covered in The Big Picture & everyone sad/mad/madsad about Marvel occupying cinemas 24/7 should read Ben Fritz' excellent book.

What 'risks' are you looking for? Spiderman 2 and X2 are solid films but they're no less superhero movies than the MCU. X2 took on social themes but what risks or deviation from the superhero formula did S2 take?

The reason Daredevil stunk isn't because it "swung for the fences"

Also lol at the zero sum idea that MCU fans don't see art films. Sure, maybe most of that fanbase didn't, but it isn't as if these people were seeing them prior to the MCU coming around. Might not have been moviegoers at all.

ok, that's it, back to Scorsese or I'm siccing Black Panther on all of you

I'm not doing Fritz's book justice but really what changed the dynamic and what gets bankrolled & what doesn't was Hollywood opening up distribution to Russia and China at the beginning of the decade. Marvel isn't to blame for what plays worldwide.

Also lol at the zero sum idea that MCU fans don't see art films. Sure, maybe most of that fanbase didn't, but it isn't as if these people were seeing them prior to the MCU coming around. Might not have been moviegoers at all.

― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Friday, October 4, 2019 2:41 PM (thirty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What movies play in movie theaters is literally a zero sum game

that's also not the point that me or Marty were making. I never said anything about art house cinema, Jaws is an awesome movie. Spielberg's War of the Worlds too. the lack of humanity he's talking about imo has a lot to do with the abundance and reliance on CGI. there were more sets and practical effects in 2002, and obviously in 1975 with Jaws. the MCU and recent DC movies I've seen are frustratingly flat visually, stuck in a bizarre space that isn't so much uncanny valley as screensaver. this is true too of something like the "(x) Has Fallen" series. I think it's important to expand the critique beyond comic book movies because their fans and those studios really are not to blame and they're not doing anything wrong.

I also haven't seen enough of the MCU to say whether or not it's "cinema." Marvel is serving a happy fanbase and cleaning up. That doesn't seem like a death or a loss to me.

Disney is the only real enemy of the cinema. There is no life in something like The Jungle Book remake, or The Lion King. watching those movies is the only time I feel like I'm hooked up to life support.

Scorsese's not wrong, but when he was making Taxi Driver and Raging Bull and The King of Comedy, I don't remember him spending a lot of time criticizing what else was in theatres (there was garbage then, too). He was too busy making Taxi Driver and Raging Bull and Then King of Comedy. Cronenberg went through that too, around the time of Madame Butterfly and Naked Lunch.

Someone asked him about comic book movies in an interview, he didn't exactly go out of his way

I also haven't seen enough of the MCU to say whether or not it's "cinema." Marvel is serving a happy fanbase and cleaning up. That doesn't seem like a death or a loss to me.

I tend to look at it as the final, inevitable triumph of market efficiency. It's a formula for minimal risk and maximum potential profit. Hence why people defending MCU movies with a kind of shrug and "they're fine" is exactly the point of the likes of Scorsese. The point of those movies is to be "fine," to create as smooth and efficient a means as possible to deliver entertainment to as wide a group of people as possible. This is nothing new of course but the extension of branding accomplished via a "universe" of interconnected movies is--it's like looking at toothpaste in the store...there's nothing beyond superficial differences because to risk communicating something "human" as scorsese puts it is to risk, inevitably, turning some people off.

Secondly, the whole "they're fine" thing is pernicious because it confirms my suspicion that movies predicated on pure frictionless enjoyment actually are not really *enjoyed* by anyone...they're not even meant to be enjoyed, merely anticipated...and the whole wildly defensive posture the "fans" take are worthy of some more sophisticated psychoanalysis than I can muster right now.

I think plenty of comic book fans genuinely love the MCU. your description is 100% OTM of the Disney remakes.

the vast majority of people that see MCU movies are not comic book fans, judging by the actual sales of comic books

I think plenty of comic book fans genuinely love the MCU.

unfortunately I am doing that infuriating thing where I'm telling them that their understanding of their own experience is wrong!

whoever their fanbase consists of, I see a lot less mishegoss over Avengers and Spider-Man than the completely insane Star Wars community.

It does seem likely to me--for a variety of reasons, if none more persuasive than sheer novelty--that this bubble will burst.

the vast majority of people that see MCU movies are not comic book fans, judging by the actual sales of comic books

― Οὖτις, Friday, October 4, 2019 12:52 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

nobody is a fan of comic books because the comic book product is woefully undesirable and unavailable outside of specialty retailers

stooooooooooooop

fwiw I am excited to see the Irishman

Me too

loooool

Martin Scorsese is one of my 5 favorite living filmmakers. I was outraged when people picketed The Last Temptation of Christ without having seen the film. I’m saddened that he’s now judging my films in the same way. https://t.co/hzHp8x4Aj8

— James Gunn (@JamesGunn) October 4, 2019

lmao

let us ponder the deep spiritual and personal issues explored in GOTG (a film I could not finish it was so atrocious)

ugh he never said he hadn't seen them, he in fact "tried" which says something abt his optimism as a film lover.

James Gunn unleashing a Tony Stark eyeroll gif on **Martin Scorsese** lmao

Not really Scorsese's fault that you made poor life decisions Mr Gunn

Guardians of the Bronx

Scorsese films >>>>> Marvel films

But he is still so wrong on so many levels here. Cinema literally began as fairground attractions, so saying films that feel like 'theme parks' aren't cinema is... just wrong. And also, part of why films like Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, and Raging Bull are good is because they feel like theme park rides gone very wrong. The best superhero films are the ones that are most purely theme park films, the ones that goes for psychology, Logan, Joker, aren't in any way an improvement. And First Reformed is just a simulacra of better art anyway, there's no difference.

All in all, so so annoying.

maybe Marty just saw Thor 2 or something

Thor 3 > Shutter Island. But that's as far as it goes, I think :)

What movies play in movie theaters is literally a zero sum game

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019 3:21 PM bookmarkflaglink

Literally two whopping theatres in my town regularly showed anything approximating art or indie films prior to the MCU. And they still do. The spaces the MCU takes just went to Apatow movies or whatever shit was hot

lets start talking about apatow movies and how whether they are more or less art than MCU shit to really get morbsy's goat

I really do wanna see The Irishman tho

i do also

being a huge fan of de-aging cgi as used in such movies as MARVEL'S Guardians of the Galaxy 2

What movies play in movie theaters is literally a zero sum game

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019 3:21 PM bookmarkflaglink

Literally two whopping theatres in my town regularly showed anything approximating art or indie films prior to the MCU. And they still do. The spaces the MCU takes just went to Apatow movies or whatever shit was hot

― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Friday, October 4, 2019 6:48 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Never mentioned art house cinema. I'm talking about stuff like this: https://www.flavorwire.com/492985/how-the-death-of-mid-budget-cinema-left-a-generation-of-iconic-filmmakers-mia

Superhero movies are for 12 year olds

if only

Some trenchant-ass social commentary itt!

What movies play in movie theaters is literally a zero sum game

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019

i've already said my piece on this elsewhere but if you think Marvel pix are squeezing out "cinema" you haven't been to the movies since idk 1975.

smdh that anyone has time to complain about marvel anything when roland emmerich's still around

Never mentioned art house cinema. I'm talking about stuff like this: https://www.flavorwire.com/492985/how-the-death-of-mid-budget-cinema-left-a-generation-of-iconic-filmmakers-mia

― flappy bird, Friday, October 4, 2019

kudos to the author in the sense that citing toback as a credible source (in the #metoo era, even!) and Exhibit A of what we've lost is kinda, uh, man maybe this MCU stuff isn't so bad after all.

The article is from 2014

what do you mean ‘exhibit A?’ the John Waters movie?

nah toback’s distinguished list of credits

and?

idk you asked

like without getting into a big handwringing qu’est-ce que le cinéma discussion the notion that Marvel Studios has somehow appropriated multiplex screens that were otherwise destined to uplift us with quality pictures is risible.

quel dommage the Two Girls and a Guyses of tomorrow will have to find an audience on Amazon Prime Video or Netflix Originals. And they will, bc as the article rightly notes they don’t require absurd budgets, and they don’t need big screens to tell their story.

What does get squeezed out is previous-gen tentpole fare, but I guess I’m okay living in a world without Wilder Hogs or Armageddon 3 or The Day After The Day After Tomorrow.

It may not be cinema - I mean, Scorsese has a point! - but it’s a step up from the alternative, and if you don’t believe that try sitting through Justice League. If you want cinema, there’s always Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse 😂

I don't agree, I miss an abundance of studio comedies and disaster movies and secret agents and book adaptations and more VARIETY... that's really what bothers me about Marvel and Disney's year round occupation of multiplexes, the alarming lack of variety. I go to the movies two, three times a week at least. I'm more invested in what plays than most because I go all the time. it's not like they flushed out all crap: stuff like Flight, Nocturnal Animals, Side Effects, even First Man and Ad Astra can't compete with these behemoths. it is a victory of market efficiency and the movie industry finally finding security in not only IPs but entire universes that can guarantee hits for decades. Maybe the bubble will burst just as did with disaster movies, zombies, and Bucket List ripoffs. I really don't think less of or judge fans of these movies, I reject snobbery and elitism. I do mourn the loss of variety in multiplexes because every movie benefits from seeing on a big screen in a room full of people. but that's just been my experience as a lifelong moviegoer.

totally agree every movie benefits from the movie palace treatment... but man has the transition to streaming shown how few movies deserve it.

still feel like the case against marvel is overblown - like in a sense their greatest crime is that at a time when it seemed like we’d seen the last shitty x-men movie (and to be clear even the “good” ones are turgid and ugly) Kevin Feige and John Favreau and RDJ came along and said “hey wait, I think it’s possible to make cape operas that lots of people will actually enjoy...” but even so there are only like 3 marvel movies a year and 52 weekends.

that said, fuck pretending to care about any Star Wars movie released after 1983

yeah I don't blame them, like I said the Marvel movies are generally well regarded and well received by fans. there are 3 Marvel movies a year that all play for at least 2 months, which is reasonable... but then you've got Disney. they are the real enemy because not only do they have year round remakes, they have yearly Star Wars now. so with Marvel and Disney playing in theaters 24/7 it drastically reduces space, and it got a lot worse in the past 2 years. the MCU started in 2008, but things didn't really change until The Force Awakens in 2015. looking back, that was the beginning of this situation.

Scorsese utterly otm and watching MCU stans trying to own him on film history etc has been great entertainment

Yea always a treat watching a legend go after low-hanging fruit

"Taco Bell isn't real Mexican food"

Scorsese utterly otm and watching MCU stans trying to own him on film history etc has been great entertainment

I thought it was pretty funny how many people were tweeting that Scorsese "only makes movies in one genre"

Well that's obv nonsense.

But the average MCU dork probably just knows Goodfellas and Casino

I mean didn’t Scorsese say that in a response to a question in an interview? It seemed like a perfectly honest (and on point) assessment. Much less of an Old Man Yelling thing in the way someone like Friedkin soapboxes about it.

STOP FEEDING THE MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE FROM THE TABLE FROM THE PLATE ON TOP OF IT.

So does Joe Pesci still do the funny voice

a strange development

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903107/netflix-the-irishman-martin-scorsese-belasco-theater-screening-award-eligibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_wall_distribution

Adventures in modern four walling.

Love this idea of the Belasco, if it’s not $100/ticket.

...and per Deadline:

Tickets for The Irishman at the Belasco will be priced at $15, on sale next week.

I'm whipping through the source book, I Heard You Paint Houses, and it's a barnburner -- I can imagine Marty salivating over it on first read. Either Sheeran was a top-notch mick raconteur (as several of my family members of that generation were) or the author did a helluva job polishing the transcriptions.

It starts with the leadup to the Hoffa disappearance then goe into Sheeran's life chronologically. His WW2 experience (411 combat days, including Anzio and 2 other invasions) is dealt with relatively quickly but brutally -- Sheeran kinda persuasively makes the case that PTSD killed off his morality. I also am reminded of how I learned a number of these gang/labor names reading the papers in grade school...

I doubt they had the CG tech to film the scene where Sheeran gets his ass kicked boxing a kangaroo.

I want to see Robert DeNiro boxing a kangaroo

he missed his chance in the late '70s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaE8gZUzwNA

(amazing how fast Elliott Gould's career went into the crapper)

marty says more things, sounds more like old man yelling at cloud. awaiting his further befuddlement in the face of demands for a thorough explanation of why he, Scorsese, an American cinema director of Italian descent, would cast an American actor of Italian descent in the title role when Liam Neeson was available.

still really looking forward to this.

Was going to say maybe Neeson was too tall but Sheeran was 6’4”

Sheeeran was Philly Irish, not Irish Irish

lol yeah casting scandals about a buncha white guys, v likely

icymi, DeNiro is part Irish

idk I hold out hope that some day they will find a jewish actor capable of playing Jesus

A hit, a very palpable hit.

De Niro is as Irish as he is Italian iirc

Almost as if we discussed that at the beginning of this thread. Morbs even insulted someone

The Frank Sheeran book, as Morbs said above, is a great read. I'm racing through it but that's not tough going at all. Excited to see how Scorsese approached this material. In my mind's eye I see Sheeran played by Holt McCallany rather DeNiro but, hey, nobody's complainin' here.

*rather than

De Niro is as Irish as he is Italian iirc

Yes, he's American.

uh guys this does not need to be re-litigated.

rogermex sees this film as necessary anti-union education

ffs

just havin' a little fun, rog

Lol from now on movie characters must be played by their real life counterparts

anyway the deNiro-Pesci dynamic should be different this time as Pesci is playing Russell Bufalino, ie Sheeran's "godfather." Also, Bufalino described as softspoken!

otoh Sheeran said Hoffa threw a tantrum twice a day to keep his temper in shape, so in Pacino's wheelhouse.

Pacino and Pesci screamed their lines on set and they dampened them in post

E Howard Hunt shows up in the book, Nixon AG John Mitchell even moreso. And a 2-page cameo by Joe Biden!

The Brandt book has many respectable skeptics re Sheeran's veracity, but for the movie, who cares?

Yes, "who cares?" indeed.

sez the JFK fan!

David Ferrie is in the book briefly but apaprently not the film; too bad, Pesci could've done a dual role.

AFI Silver has just announced a run starting November 15. Landmark E Street has the film on its Coming Soon page, but no start date.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j1T5xjwGJQ

THE DAILY BEAST’S OBSESSED

Does Anyone Care If Marvel Movies Are ‘Cinema’?

Kevin Fallon
Senior Entertainment Reporter

I'm gonna say...Kevin Fallon, Senior Entertainment Reporter?

let's keep that M*rvel madness outta this thread

Quite a lot of Touchez pas au grisbi (1954) in The Irishman and that's a very good thing.

— ℑ 𝔇𝔬𝔫'𝔱 𝔅𝔩𝔞𝔪𝔢 𝔜𝔬𝔲 (@NickPinkerton) October 23, 2019

I daren't visit the Marvel thread

seeing at MoMA on 11/9

apparently none of the Italian Beatles will be attending

Screening at the Castro for several days as well. Preceded byva screening of the recent Dylan doc w Marty in attendance

I saw it yesterday morning. I liked it.

Saw it opening night, it was very good. the first two hours were so preordained, so much gangster fan service scripting, so much special effects and explosions that i did have the "well how is this different from a marvel movie" thought but the last 30 minutes really redeem the film and act as apologia for scorcese's big dick bad guy fantasy fuel. DeNiro is fine, Pacino is a restrained as he's likely to be for the rest of his career and Pesci is fucking amazing as the most menacing grampa ever. He'd be winning a best supporting actor Oscar as long as he did the press stuff and is friendly on camera which i suppose he won't do.

it is a FAST 3 1/2 hours if you can believe it.

were you aware (as I only just became) that Sheehan's story is bogus, and if so how did it affect the experience?

Sheeran

Isn't every gangster story largely bogus

I don't know, maybe the peripheral details but not the central thesis?

I generally approach any gangster story as a fantasy.

some for me e.g. Goodfellas, Donnie Brasco have a little more life than others for being based on true stories

i was not aware of how "real" the story was but the meaninglessness of these gangsters' lives and their totally full-of-shit lives is absolutely at the heart of the film... so you guys are OTM with what i think Irishman (which was clearly meant to be called I HEARD YOU PAINT HOUSES and which it should be called) is about

I have no idea if it's bogus or not, but all sorts of ppl who've dealt with this world for decades differ on that. And I'm not interested in "deciding."

btw ulysses all the Osc*r supporting talk is around Pacino

Hoffa - GREAT ASS!

talk about a 3-hour film that felt longer...

were you aware (as I only just became) that Sheehan's story is bogus, and if so how did it affect the experience?

I don't know short of a ruling what would make an "official" debunkment but I found this enlightening

https://www.thedailybeast.com/martin-scorseses-the-irishman-is-a-big-lie-heres-what-really-happened-to-jimmy-hoffa

I don't get the point of making a big deal of this in the context of the movie.

I get why Don Shirley's family objected to Green Book (Joey Lips's white knighting) but this Scorcese film, if it's entertaining, whatever.

Zodiac was based on a book written by a discredited author who floated debunked theories and yet i enjoyed that one even with that knowledge

a 'countermyth' to JFK also part of this

a plausible one, true or not

i had some issues with this but the plot driving forward was not generally one of them. you thought it was slow morbs?

I haven't seen it yet; MoMA next Saturday afternoon.

Netflix will not release b.o. numbers, but there were numerous sellouts in NYC

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/11/box-office-the-irishman-harriet-wide-1202186843/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/movies/irishman-belasco-netflix.html

My "3-hour film that felt longer" was about Heat, by the minor-league Scorsese.

(following Neanderthal's assquote, which i have no memory of in the film and know solely thru ILX)

Ive always had less than zero investment in the mystery of What Happened To Jimmy Hoffa and am hoping that the movie's impact wont rely on me giving too much of a shit about it.

He manages a Walgreens now under the psudonym Todd Steele

i do care about what happened to hero of labor james r hoffa but yeah, this is a movie, who cares if its accurate

xp to morbs, ah gotcha.
fwiw within the film hoffa is not treated as a "great man" except in the sense that he has outstanding charisma. he - and basically every man who gets a screen credit - is a sociopath and sees violence and potentially murder as potentially useful tools.
aside from hoffa's wife, women have virtually no place in this world. anna paquin has maybe two sentences in an extremely halfhearted subplot.

This was ehhhh to pretty good? By the time it hits Hour #3, we thought, "Wait, why should we care so much about the death of Hoffa?" Joe Pesci and De Niro are baby powder soft and quite poignant, although it's impossible to separate our feeling for them as aging actors from the characters.

Nicholson as Hoffa was more effective.

The editing remains wizardly.

it is a FAST 3 1/2 hours if you can believe it.

― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, November 3, 2019 1

Not really: often a pointless 3.5 hours.

Is there any nudity

no Jake

meh, everybody doesn't care about something

for me, it's old Pazz & Jop results

Is there any nudity

al pacino is fully naked from the waist down in each and every one of his scenes, a fact which has been embargoed from all reviews so far but which i can exclusively reveal here on ilxor dot com

"Just when I thought they were up, they keep pulling them back down!"

lol

Edelstein: “This is the first Scorsese movie in which the images don’t seem unified either by fever or by the kind of hard, rigorous focus that is fever’s opposite.”

I resented after several hours how Scorsese cast Anna Paquin only to restrain her to scowling for a total of 12 minutes running time.

Edelstein not OTM about the rich period detail of the RFK-Hoffa grilling. However, the set design for the HoJo in the last third, its pool, and shitty roadside lounges is fabulous even when the film's rhythms at this point resemble a solid episode of Mad Men (and it has that episodic rhythm of good TV).

Not really: often a pointless 3.5 hours.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, November 6, 2019

sounds like it was for you! I got there fifteen minutes before showtime to a packed house which means that, as the ten senior citizens I had to goosestep over to get to my seat suggested, I was very much trapped. you sip your soda slowly, i tell you. but the upshot was that the film flew by and by the time we got to the painfully nonredemptive end, I was unclear how long this was going to go on... which helped the drama tbh. If i had been watching this at home on Netflix, I can almost guarantee i woulda been half attuned and checking my phone, likely woulda punched out at the moment they introduced the new mob boss only to kill him. Another win for seeing things in theaters imo.

I agree, as I noted above, on Scorcese's lack of engagement women here (and, in general unfortunately), Paquin especially.
"why should we care about the death of hoffa" is really less the meaning of the film than "watch this brute sell the last of his scruples and kill his hero in the name of meaningless, sexless power"

I resented after several hours how Scorsese cast Anna Paquin only to restrain her to scowling for a total of 12 minutes running time.

weirdly I found her lack of dialogue quite affecting

like, these guys do nothing but talk all fucking day, and here's this quiet person who can see through it all without a word. her affection for Hoffa (purely because, we assume, she'd never *seen* him do anything crooked) just made it even more painful!

Ive seen Paquin in just one movie in the last 10 years and that sucks. I'm not gonna watch True Blood, thanks

Scorcese's lack of engagement women here (and, in general unfortunately)

He kinda went off on this in a recent interview. He's given signature roles to Burstyn (Oscar!), Liza (likely her second-best film role), Sharon Stone, Sandra Bernhard, Michelle Pfeiffer, Winona Ryder, a few others. In this story, women are not at the center, so whaddya want?

how about "(and, in general as of late, unfortunately)"? Like say the last eight years.

and it's not that they're not in the center, it's that they exist only to be placate, protected and avoided.

Well except for Silence, those movies didn't have any good roles for men either.

Maybe he could give a woman in a mob picture the equivalent of what Coppola wrote for Diane Keaton in Godfather II -- "IT WAS AN ABORTION, MICHAEL, BECAUSE ALL OF THIS MUST END" -- and it'd be the biggest false note in the movie.

(obv there weren't any Portuguese female monks in the 17th century)

xp maybe he could make a point of having a female character with any sort of defining or interesting characteristics? just spitballing here.

"why should we care about the death of hoffa" is really less the meaning of the film than "watch this brute sell the last of his scruples and kill his hero in the name of meaningless, sexless power"

I didn't care because Scorsese didn't show what exactly Hoffa sold out except endless references to The Pension Fund or whatever. But how did it affect Hoffa's supporters?

"only to be placated, protected and avoided" seems like a decent summary of the way women are treated by men who lead these lives. I haven't seen the movie's treatment of Sheeran's divorce, but in the book it's clear he chose the Family over his family.

like, these guys do nothing but talk all fucking day, and here's this quiet person who can see through it all without a word. her affection for Hoffa (purely because, we assume, she'd never *seen* him do anything crooked) just made it even more painful!

― Simon H.,

That's not what you cast an actor of her stature to do, but whatever.

yeah Hoffa made the pension fund a Mafia bank, and then he made blustering noises about ratting. Finito.

xxp to alfred: I think you're confusing my point: the "brute" there isn't pacino, it's deniro.

Morbs otm. Scorsese's created many indelible female characters. My complaint about this film is the unrewarding familiarity stretched out to Netflix series length.

The road sequences with the cig-smoking wives, Pesci, and De Niro played, like the early bits of Lynch's Mulholland Drive, as if written for hour-long TV segments.

morbs: the divorce is given a single line.
alfred, you clearly found the road trip sequences exhausting by attenuation; i thought they sufficiently encapsulated how these powerful violent men have no real interests or depth of any variety to their life. their failure of imagination is amongst their most damning qualities and they kill people for a living.
i will say that all the back of the car "fish schtick" dialogue got a little exhausting but hey, nothing's ever gonna beat "whattayawant from me"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyXZG2dupo

That's not what you cast an actor of her stature to do, but whatever.

iirc Keitel is in this for like three minutes?

he also throws away jesse plemons, bobby cannavale, jim norton... Steve Van Zandt does some blink and you miss it lip synching!

but paquin is REALLY egregious.

BTW, Van Morrison is in the closing music and you can't even hear him until after the music credits roll and he starts mumbling "I hear you paint houses..."
i wish i was kidding!

iirc Keitel is in this for like three minutes?

― Simon H.,

yeah!

i will say that all the back of the car "fish schtick" dialogue got a little exhausting but hey, nothing's ever gonna beat "whattayawant from me"

I still couldn't figure out why it was moist, but I didn't care because the movie didn't make me care. This is HOUR THREE.

maybe Fran Lebowitz coulda played a Teamster

Woody Allen usta cast names for 2-minute roles alla time, so Marty has received the baton

Sotosyn, just think of it as his Sandinista!

*shudder*

it was moist because there was a fish in the back seat! This is not complicated. It just ran on a bit too long.

See? The running time made an obvious joke flaccid

It clearly did for you, yes. I am not blaming the film’s run time, just the length of that particular pre-murder shaggy dog story and its particular obviousness as such.

Was someone trying to fuck the fish

but paquin is REALLY egregious

I have bad news for you about basically every post-Margaret Paquin film role

Again though: the film’s air of preordained outcome and mad lib gangster dialogue made for pleasant but valid page turning; the decision to keep the camera running much longer than it had to implicates the viewer in a way I thought made the movie matter. “Hey, you wanted the tough guy bullshit; here’s how it actually resolves.”

Separately, this could’ve lost a half an hour in its belly with zero impact and I wouldn’t argue otherwise. But everyone’s enjoying themselves so much onscreen and behind the camera (and not incidentally, in my audience at least), it seems churlish to bitch.

xxp
didn't realise Captain Birdseye was a teamster. i'm learning new things from this movie before i've even seen it.

Valid=vapid in that post

I'm not gonna get to see this before the 27th

tbh I didn't mind the shaggy bits cause I knew he was setting Netflix's money on fire

On the contrary: it'll play well on Netflix, just not in the cinema.

I saw it in the cinema fwiw and was not bored or annoyed at any point (the last post was a joke; setting Netflix's money on fire was merely a bonus)

I like Anthony Lane's remark: structurally it's Wild Strawberries with guns. And I appreciated its fascination with geriatric crime. But by the time it got to the third hour and the film was figuring out how to kill Hoffa I felt a quiet soul death.

On the contrary to YOUR contrary!
I love discussing le cinema

and the film was figuring out how to kill Hoffa

It's not doing this.

Anyway, KJB and I both liked. I think the phone call to Hoffa's widow is late-career peak for de Niro -- it's like the whispery equivalent of cut-up poetry.

(of course I haven't seen Bad Grandpa)

I think the phone call to Hoffa's widow is late-career peak for de Niro -- it's like the whispery equivalent of cut-up poetry.

yes that is an absolutely staggering moment

it's the best thing he does in the film; thought he mostly just wandered through otherwise but that's a good moment of a man losing his soul

there's now a mini controversy about Paquin's role in this because of course there is

It's not doing this.

It is.

With the distance of several days, it's fine second-tier Scorsese, his An Autumn Afternoon: the material isn't fresh but the 'autumnal' notes are.

De Nro and Pesci are at their peak, Pacino less so. These Method hams like him and Nicholson have to imitate him when the surest way would've been to evoke Hoffa without bothering with the accent and hairline.

People grousing about Paquin's low number of lines (I assume that's the 'controversy' bcz I don't give a flying shitto) would not have understood the power of silent cinema. She's there to haunt her father -- words are mostly superfluous -- and that's why you need an actor of "her stature" to pull that off.

(frankly I had forgotten she was the lead in Margaret)

and she's actually *named* Margaret in this one

"evoking Hoffa" doesn't sound fun... guy was a bellowing steamroller. (I bet that Robert Blake miniseries from the '80s has some ham too.)

You're missing my point. Few actors in the last 30 years bother looking or sounding like RFK besides a broad Bahston Braaahmin accent, so why try for "truth" with Hoffa? It freezes the actors.

Is there controversy over Paquin? My cavil was, "Hey, is that Paquin, and why is she just glowering?"

“I kept asking Steve Zaillian if we can layer her in the story,” Scorsese said at the DGA Theater in NYC. “I decided that she doesn’t have to say anything. You see your father do something like that, I’m sorry… You see him crush the guy’s hand like that… other kids maybe, but this kid couldn’t take it. She looks at him. She knows he’s up to something and Lucy was great, but Anna ultimately was amazing in the looks. She has one line in the film. There’s something you can’t talk about. She knows it. She knows who she is. He knows she knows. Even when she’s sitting there and the police are talking about Joey Gallo being [murdered.] ‘A lone gunman walked in…’ and you see she’s looking at him.”

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/martin-scorsese-anna-paquin-irishman-1202185371/

I've heard Hoffa and Pacino doesn't esp sound like him. Many viewers are going to be confused by Al playing an Irish-Pa Dutch guy though.

Won't bother linking to the Guardian "writer" who at one point opines "She seems more like a symbol than a real person." BINGO, SWEETZ, YA GOT IT

he also throws away jesse plemons, bobby cannavale, jim norton... Steve Van Zandt does some blink and you miss it lip synching!

omg KJB and I both failed to figure out who SVZ was. I did wonder why they got a fire-hydrant-shaped Jerry Vale.

Jim Norton should be thrown away regularly fwiw

"acting" is when the actor says lines!!!

yeah exactly... "line count," what a clown.

anyway the Hoffa role is kinda written as heavily comic... I didn't see it as an impression. If anything my main problem is he was too much like Big Boy Caprice -- which was also his chief virtue!

Lmao

Cos

Argh stupid phone, dont mind me

"Hey, is that Paquin, and why is she just glowering?"

She hates and fears her father.

You can argue the nonverbal approach doesn't work, and that's fine, but the intention is clear.

on soundtrack choices

https://www.slashfilm.com/the-irishman-soundtrack/

(text kinda spoilery if u care)

is it true this movie is 3.5 hours long?

yes

worth it?

Ça dépend!

sure!

It feels faster than Casino, which is 30 minutes shorter... although it is paced more slowly.

but you can always go back to yr must-see 70-hour TV series

OK!

i ended up sitting next to a guy i hadn't seen in years at the theater when i saw this and when the lights came up the first thing he said was "well i've got to see that again later this week". I mean, he's nuts but i can see rewatching this at some point.

MoMA's running it for a week after Christmas, and i will likely return

This movie sucks, and nothing will ever change my mind about that fact. I haven't seen it though, and I refuse to ever see it.

but you can always go back to yr must-see 70-hour TV series

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, November 13, 2019 2:27 PM (nineteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

is this a zing directed at me? i watch like one season of tv per year lol

not at all, i was speaking to the times in which we live. sorry flopson

i will retroactively direct it at mob-film-hater Eric tho (xo)

Hey, I dug My Blue Heaven at the time.

Married to the Mob is fun iirc

Oh duh, forgot about Sister Act!

don't make me come over there

https://okinawaassault.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/vlcsnap-1320201.png

"Don't make me come over there!"

I made it a point to see this on my last night in Toronto (moved out after living most of my life there). I figured it would be good enough to inspire a long post recalling hugely influential screenings of Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, and Raging Bull (all three at long-gone Toronto theatres).

It's okay--I'll spare you all the nostalgic post. Pesci gives the best performance, but it's hardly a demanding one--he's playing not-Joe-Pesci, and you enjoy and appreciate that. I actually liked Pacino better, though. He overacts a couple of times, but on the whole, he was pretty lively and seemed to be having fun. (The Dick Tracy comparison might be valid--haven't seen it since it came out.) Bad sign for me was when "In Still of the Nite" started up right away and I felt nothing. I think that part of Scorsese might be dead to me. Thought Harvey Keitel had some real presence in his small part.

well "Still" sets the tone of a movie that could be called The Dead. I don't think he's going for a "Be My Baby" thing there, but pure irony/grimness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j1T5xjwGJQ

that was *kinda* funny the first time...

Encore du champagne.

Enchanté to you too!

I don't remember the exact beginning of the film, but I thought "In the Still of the Nite" was used to draw you into the film at a sensory/sensuous level. It's a great song. But it went right past me and I thought, "Scorsese has finally worn out that nerve ending for me." I've read lots of people say that that happened with them with Goodfellas, that the music was just layered on mechanically, but I love how pop music was used there. This is the film where that feeling caught up with me. Even Casino had a few great musical bits.

used "Sleep Walk" in Casino too

seeing this tomorrow

Me too

I'm at the 3:30 matinee showing in Dallas, and I am one of 8 people in the theater?!

it's only showing at one other place! (the theater where Oswald was nabbed)

is this weird or not? I thought it'd packed

it's all sold out here today (and i neglected to try and buy tickets til last night). there may be some at the door, so i might try for that, anything for this last hurrah of the boomer gangster epic

saw this today and liked it. and aside from needing to pee for the last 60 minutes or so, didn’t think the 210 minutes felt like it at all

some half-baked thoughts

pesci was really good - as clemenza says, playing “not joe pesci”. he was fresh as an even-keeled, genial boss, and he and pacino both looked great in their younger scenes. pacino is perfectly cast as hoffa

had some issues with de niro, partly because I found it hard to buy him as a thirty-something tough guy considering he moved like he was in his seventies or eighties, which he is. thought his character really became interesting in the final third when he was caught between jimmy and russell, but before that he seemed pretty nondescript. also didn’t feel like the subplot with the daughter really worked that well and wished there were a little more focus on his family and the female characters in general.

the music I thought was great

best scene and line was probably keitel’s “I do.” keitel didn’t have a huge part but I thought he did a lot with the part

thought this was a snore

rip, so did J.Ro

https://letterboxd.com/jrosenbaum2002/film/the-irishman-2019/

I disagree.

entering SPOILER TERRITORY....

The Brandt book adds a lot more emphasis to the mob-hit-JFK angle, with Sheeran delivering rifles headed for Texas in fall '63, and Hoffa telling Sheeran that Bufalino's words (to Hoffa) at the Philly tribute dinner were "Some people think you are not showing enough appreciation for Dallas." I suspect Scorsese didn't want the film to come off like JFK II.

Hell I figured it was his backhanded compliment to Stone the entire time. (Not per se a complaint but anyway.)

Anyway, my theater four blocks away was screening it a few times so figured I'd go for it. Felt like its length but I didn't feel the need for any sort of break -- maybe a bit restless in the final hour at points. Having just seen the full-on version of Once Upon a Time in America a couple of months ago in the same spot, that really does feel like a comparison point in ways, going big on the scope of time and overall length at least, as well as stuck with regrets and reflexive burnout at the end of it all. (And, well, De Niro but anyway.) The longueurs towards the end once the road trip's purpose is established do work, I think; he can still do quotidian better than most. CGI I thought about briefly at the very start when we get young De Niro/Pesci but after that I just let it go.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-irishman-movie-review-2019

liked zoller seitz’s take, and it’s making me sit with de niro’s performance and appreciate it a little more

Yeah, I liked his take too.

that is a good review

I thought this thread has been waaay too rough on RdN, didn't know he still had this in him.

Agree with Morbs. Saw this yesterday and besides finding it one of the best book-to-screen adaptations I've seen I thought DeNiro really shone. Thought Pacino's Hoffa was endearing as well and their bromance - I mean, this whole thing can be seen as a bromantic triangle gone wrong, no? - a major part of the film's beating heart. Hence the little bit of the "Touchez pas au grisbi" theme playing early on and echoed in the score ( which was pleasingly minimalistic ) throughout. Lots to digest, still, but what a great last few years from Scorsese thus far. Looking forward to rewatching before it disappears from the big screen in my area.

Yeah, criminals can be endearing in their way.

this is by far Marty's least "endearing" mob film imho

Was referring to Pacino's Hoffa as endearing and not the film as a whole, capice?

he's kind of a megalomaniacal creep who likes kids and ice cream

The last half hour is one of the few recent attempts in American film to reckon with extreme old age.

oldsters gonna old
lol jk i thought this was great
but yeah, the ultimate old man movie

Speaking of old man swag

https://www.gq.com/story/al-pacino-and-robert-deniro-godfathers-of-the-year-2019

Orlando finally got this a week early. Going tomorrow.

Sadly at a dine in theatre so things like soda refills probably won't happen. And i will need the caffeine.

Is there any intermission in this thing

Nope. And I don't think it would work with one. But it moves fast, it didn't feel like three and a half hours at all.

Saw this tonight and need to sit with it for a bit, but I agree with the consensus that the 2nd half is 10x more interesting than the first, which could have lost 30min or more imho. I get that it’s necessary to give dramatic heft to the 2nd half and the pointlessness of Frank’s life in retrospect and etc, but still there comes a point where piling on these endless quotidian scenes of which wiseguy offended which other wiseguy becomes self defeating. Keitel & Joey Gallo could each have been fully excised with no loss to the film imo.

Also thought Paquin towers over the movie, definitely not ‘misused’. Pacino on the other hand hilariously random in his decisions of when to deploy the PA accent.

Also pretty remarkable that the movie released as The Irishman goes out of its way twice to tell you that it’s actually titled “I Hear You Paint Houses”?

Rewatched yesterday. Loved the Hoffa/ Sheeran scenes even more. Editing is fantastic in general though I agree there's lots of fat that could've left the first half. And the guy who played Bobby Kennedy...did they even try to cast someone with a slight resemblance lol?
Bobby Canavale still grates, btw.

Didn't make it to the movie due to traffic. Bleh

ironic - this might be the definitive 'how much extra time should you account for traffic' film

Hahaha

Pacino on the other hand hilariously random in his decisions of when to deploy the PA accent.

Hoffa was born in Indiana and moved to Detroit at age 11, where he remained for life (except for prison). Still, Rust Belt.

yeah i realized after i posted that i think i was subconsciously thinking of the joe paterno movie from last year, ha.

His dipping in & out of the accent was so big that I almost want to go back and take a look at those scenes again, i wonder if it was a choice that went over my head, like he turns on his folksy accent at different times to schmooze or manipulate.

OEO mostly otm on all those posts (though I still think piquing was wasted)

Er. Paquin, rather.

I thought the kid who played the daughter as a kid was about as good as Paquin. Both were really good, mind you, but if a kid can do what the role asks for, then why not get an unknown actress who looks more like the kid to do it later on?

food in this film, ranked

Okay, I shat the bed on this one, so here's an amended list with the footstuffs I missed the first go (but not the other ones I probably forgot) https://t.co/gWBBaFH89a pic.twitter.com/oupxXGmQRV

— Matt Prigge (@mattprigge) November 25, 2019

LOL thats great

the prison ice cream sundae is a tough one for me bc one the one hand it was probably prepared with much more time and care than yr typical sundae on the outside so i thought maybe it shld rank higher, but on the other hand the dude also might have spit in it or something so i geuss its a wash

i forget the details in the book re how Hoffa got the perk of prison ice cream, if there were any

this is a fun, lightly dishy, not particularly illuminating read.
https://www.gq.com/story/al-pacino-and-robert-deniro-godfathers-of-the-year-2019

Everyone mentions how little steven is in this but i was caught completely unprepared for the sudden surprise appearance of Action Bronson, which caught me v off guard

otoh, macho dimwits in my theater were cheering and rolling in the aisles laughing at all of the beatdowns and moldy mob jokes. "The only way three people can keep a secret - is if two of them are dead!"got huuuge bellylaughs. When HOffa's fate became clear after the testimonial dinner they laughed at almost every Pacino line, I guess bc they found it hilarious that he didnt know he was going to get murdered, which was kind of depressing to be around.

I sat next to a very hyped (coked?) up Dutch hipster - slicked back hair and pointy shoes, chewing gum and looking around before the film began like he was in character for a bit part in, you guessed it, a mob film - and some old ladies on my first viewing. Hipster and his buddy LOVED the "Leave it like ya left Berlin" line and any violent scenes while the old ladies very audibly gasped "Oooh!" throughout the entire film anytime said violence happened. Going to the movies in 2019, man...

can someone explain why the film appears on Netflix starting today, and is still in a few dozen theaters? I thought there was going to be no overlap, contractually.

also Anna seems pleased with the film and Marty

Paquin on why Scorsese chose her: https://t.co/Hy6nikReLj pic.twitter.com/kid1LjyIVa

— Peter Labuza (@labuzamovies) November 27, 2019

Gonna give Bo Dietl prime real estate in end-of-year movie polls pic.twitter.com/ykKFJWymAq

— Matt Prigge (@mattprigge) November 27, 2019

Jesse Plemons barely has more dialogue than Paquin and it’s mostly arguing about fish WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE

Finally have multiple videos of Jimmy Hoffa open-mouth gnarling on testimonial dinner steak while glowering at his many enemies pic.twitter.com/hYPrCfX71G

— Matt Prigge (@mattprigge) November 27, 2019

Liked this but by no means a masterpiece, or a career summation. And the meaninglessness of their lives and their power, I thought that was all conveyed pretty clearly in Goodfellas and Casino. The last half hour is the only exceptional part of the movie.

Pesci has never been better. Dead ringer for Sidney Lumet of all people. Pacino sucked, pick a fucking accent dude. Reminded me of Orson Welles trying to do Irish in The Lady from Shanghai.

The criticism of Paquin is baffling to me... I thought her performance was substantial and by no means quotidian. What is this literalism with line counts? Come on.

Morbs OTM about DeNiro calling Hoffa's widow. I didn't think he was particularly remarkable until the last half hour.

Loved the Touchez Pas Au Grisbi motif incorporated throughout, first in its original harmonica version and then those mournful cellos.

What's up with the two titles?

FBI: Frank, everyone’s dead. Tell us what happened to Hoffa.

Frank: Hey! Im so glad you reached out. I’m actually at capacity / helping someone who’s in crisis / dealing with some personal stuff right now, and I don’t think I can hold appropriate space for you. Could we connect

— Alex Sherman (@shermitthefrog) November 28, 2019

What's up with the two titles?

(Based on nothing, obv:) I wonder if Netflix insisted on The Irishman, and Marty was like fine but I’m still putting the title I like better in the actual movie

that was my guess too. Good for him

Liked this but by no means a masterpiece, or a career summation. And the meaninglessness of their lives and their power, I thought that was all conveyed pretty clearly in Goodfellas and Casino. The last half hour is the only exceptional part of the movie.

Pesci has never been better. Dead ringer for Sidney Lumet of all people. Pacino sucked, pick a fucking accent dude. Reminded me of Orson Welles trying to do Irish in The Lady from Shanghai.

otm

I loved the 'secret' title. It also ties into how language is constantly used to mask things, they paint houses, things are what they are. Nobody talks about how serious and dangerous what they do is. To a large extent, it seemed to me to be a film about psychological repression. The most uncanny thing to me was how it felt like there were all these other stories going on, which nobody really knew about. The fact that the death dates of all the gangsters kept popping up, and that they all seemed to die 79-81, ended up being really creepy. And there's all this stuff about politics and union organization, which is never really delved into, the alliance with Nixon, why it seemed the mob was basically allowed to take over. I thought it was a pretty fantastic portrait of history.

From what I can recall none of that stuff was elaborated on in the book. It certainly adds to the sense of a world of hidden agreements and associations - one which Sheeran and the rest of the "soldiers" and made guys would never be privy to. Certainly creepy.

Gathering the family around the TV to watch The Irishman and then secretly playing John Travolta’s GOTTI and seeing how long it takes everyone to figure it out

— Jason O. Gilbert (@gilbertjasono) November 29, 2019

I Heard You Use E-Meters

de-aged deniro, meant to sheeran at 30 or so, assaulting the grocer with all the grace and ferocity of 2019 robert deniro is a bit of unintentional humour

yeah that was... rough

I’m pretty sure it’s good actually

The de-aging looks weird at first but I got used to it after a couple of scenes, probably cause Scorsese is so stylised anyway. There’s something v effective about the obvious bleeding through the bandage

I think this guy I follow put it really well

You can tell they are old in the irishman, but it works. The weight of their future is pressing upon them from their youth, making them stiff and sore, faces blanched into ageless putty by their actions

— bobsy (@bobsymindless) November 29, 2019

The only time it was really a problem for me was the scene where young Pesci first meets deniro at that gas station. No idea what age he was supposed to be but Pesci looked truly horrifying, like he was wearing a melted Halloween mask or something.

I heard someone saying that it worked for them bc the movie is framed as Franks reminiscences, and you often remember your younger self and your friends as just being the present versions of you in the past, which is kind of an interesting take imo even I don’t really subscribe to it myself.

Will see this soon, but still astounded it cost $200 million. If Marty is spending that much on this sort of story and still complaining about Marvel movies he's kind of missing the point. I heard Edward Norton on the radio more or less boasting that "Motherless Brooklyn" "only" cost $27 million or so and "small" movies that "cheap" (scarequotes mine) are getting harder and harder to make.

http://www.tasteofcinema.com/2018/the-10-best-micro-budget-movies-of-the-21st-century/

No marvel chat itt for Christ’s sake

DeNiro pretty convincingly portrayed someone younger in Goodfellas, I thought his first appearance when “he couldn’t have been more than 28 or 29 at the time” was believable, they just did a little dark hair color and some makeup and it worked esp if you consider ppl from that era looked older and DeNiro up to age fifty still had a certain lithe vitality. They only had to age him forward a few years for that film too.

tangerine, tiny furniture, blair witch, primer, paranormal activity, mariachi and resolution and all come to mind as great under-100k-budget films
fuck kevin smith btw

hm, little clicking around suggests moonlight was made for 1.5 million and was already a huge success pre-oscars with 23 million... but then went on to make 65 million post oscars, which makes it the biggest ROI in modern theater history
BUT that's still not even half of what Doctor Strange made!

Will see this soon, but still astounded it cost $200 million.

I thought Blair Witch was the ROI record holder?

i guess i'm thinking of modern theater history as "since turn of the century" but yes, Blair Witch was a monster. those guys never quite were able to do it again huh?

Will see this soon, but still astounded it cost $200 million. If Marty is spending that much on this sort of story and still complaining about Marvel movies he's kind of missing the point. 


this literally had nothing to do with what he was saying about Marvel films

hm, little clicking around suggests moonlight was made for 1.5 million and was already a huge success pre-oscars with 23 million... but then went on to make 65 million post oscars, which makes it the biggest ROI in modern theater history

Check out Magic Mike

xpost Oh, I know, I just meant if you're making a "real cinema" (or whatever) gangster movie, and telling that story takes $200 million, then you're really no better than blockbusters that cost as much, especially when you're leaning so hard on digital effects. Back to that Edward Norton interview I referenced, he specifically cited the cost of this movie and "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" (which was maybe $100 million?) as what "little movies" like his are up against.

xpost Oh, I know, I just meant if you're making a "real cinema" (or whatever) gangster movie, and telling that story takes $200 million, then you're really no better than blockbusters that cost as much, especially when you're leaning so hard on digital effects.

What

I guess I'm not making myself clear. I think $200 is a lot of money, a blockbuster budget. And a lot of that money went to digital effects in this, right? So when you're spending huge amounts of cash and leaning on huge amounts of FX, then it seems (and yeah, no need to go into this again) pretty rich to complain that those other multi-hundred million dollar movies packed with digital FX are not to your liking.

200
200 dollah
200 dollah blockbuster

Scorcese complains that the superhero movies crowd out the entire marketplace to the detriment of theatrical cinema - don't think many are really arguing about that part. But maybe it does weaken his argument a little, having to go to Netflix of all people for unlimited money to "waste" on a low-key historical drama that probably could've been made for 25% of that. At least, it might if Irishman wasn't good...

The CGI in The Irishman and the CGI in any given Marvel movie are not the same at all—in terms of "leaning" on CGI, take all the CGI out of The Irishman and Guardians of the Galaxy and see which movie loses less. they're just trying to make older actors look younger, which is still really hard and really expensive, it costs a lot for a subtle effect that just barely works imo.

Barely related: there was a quote from some director who was asked, years and years ago at this point, about their favorite use of CG, and the director cited Ang Lee's "Sense and Sensibility." The interviewer was of course a little confused, and the director noted one scene of a storm rolling in that apparently used computer effects, the argument being (at least at the time) that CG should be used to create things out of your control, but that the best CG does not call attention to itself and, in fact, may be best when totally unnoticed.

Anyway, distant point being, were it not for the parade of Marvel movies et al. Marty would likely have not had access to a technology he was happy to spend tens of millions on. Maybe he should just think of those movies as the world's most expensive and successful experiments in R&D.

Will see this soon, but still astounded it cost $200 million. If Marty is spending that much on this sort of story and still complaining about Marvel movies he's kind of missing the point. I heard Edward Norton on the radio more or less boasting that "Motherless Brooklyn" "only" cost $27 million or so and "small" movies that "cheap" (scarequotes mi

Will see this soon, but still astounded it cost $200 million. If Marty is spending that much on this sort of story and still complaining about Marvel movies he's kind of missing the point. I heard Edward Norton on the radio more or less boasting that "Motherless Brooklyn" "only" cost $27 million or so and "small" movies that "cheap" (scarequotes mine) are getting harder and harder to make.

I really liked this anyway. The CG stuff only stuck out in the beginning. Got used to it fast. Seemed totally inconsequential to me.

Seemed very much about aging out, losing it, and dying on all levels. A lot of Old Man Rambling moments, both in the acting and writing, but made sense and seemed intentional given the context. All the clunky elements worked in its favor.

i've gotten about an hour into it, going to finish tomorrow

I dont like the de-aging. Film is too much about images to stuff your movie with an odd visual effect on your stars faces.

The final half hour is good cinema. The rest is overly long. I didnt feel the Hoffa-Sheeran relationship enough, you have so long a film to develop these things, you think youd do that. It's the emotional core of the movie, this man killed one of his closest friends and lost his daughter and sold his soul in doing so. it doesnt quite connect for me.

me neither

i keep coming back to the scene where frank is explaining how you want a clean weapon you can throw away once the job is done, and thinking about how frank himself is used as a weapon, getting more and more tarnished each time, until eventually there’s no-one left to throw him away

de niro does a really good job of playing frank as the guy who’s just not quite smart enough to grasp what’s going on until it’s too late

I found Dominick Lombardozzi's fat suit way more disturbing than digital De Niro.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKn8WNlXsAMRzSQ.jpg

i think on second viewing (in which i went from liking it to loving it) it became clear that it’s less about someone who lost their soul than someone who never had one. frank’s ultimate horror is that even his own inner life is meaningless to him, it’s just this endless purgatorial damnation (it’s key that he DOESN’T die at the end)...and there’s that moving scene with the priest at the end with the line “lord help us to see ourselves.”

it’s just this endless purgatorial damnation

and now you're free! until later today, when we have to put you through all of this again.

if he loses his soul it's at anzio. loved how many people say "you know, it's like in the war" to him while talking around murder. economic-- political-- even spiritual.

yeah, I'm not sure if Frank ever had a soul, but if he loses it, it's definitely in the war.

if he doesn’t have a soul why is he so affected by his daughter rejecting him?

Narcissism?

i mean "soul"'s a lil vague (as ever). frank has dutifully repressed himself into an inarticulate instrument; he did it young; and now, like the fascist soldiers who dug their own graves, he finds at the end of an unpleasant working life that nobody feels merciful towards him and there is no reward. was there another way he could have been? unclear. difficult to imagine. too late now.

I loved the 'secret' title. It also ties into how language is constantly used to mask things, they paint houses, things are what they are. Nobody talks about how serious and dangerous what they do is. To a large extent, it seemed to me to be a film about psychological repression.

def. "frank" is a v fortunate name. liked that hoffa's ultimate moment of defiance (+ simultaneously, blindness) is "this is my union, frank-- very simple when you say it that way", and that when joe pesci is finally sent to "school" it's for saying someone "needs to go to australia" lol

(joe pesci's entire performance being a kind of unslipping mask, w added intertextual thrill from yr immediate suspicion that he is nevertheless a joe pesci character underneath it)

good posts dlh

love bg’s clean gun insight and dlh’s posts!

Suddenly the tossed-out budget has ballooned from $160 million to $200m, not that we'll ever know. Josh, you are making no sense re Marvel v Marty.

As for Pacino's sliding accent, I didn't especially notice nor care (see also Mitchum's Boston yawp in The Friends of Eddie Coyle). And not being moved by the Hoffa-Sheeran relationship -- well, it's a rancid one. I think it's fine to diagnose it from a distance... again, no sentimentality.

The book is particularly daring in partly blaming Frank's service in The Good War for his pathology. Ditto the one scene in the film, plus the "It's like the Army" line.

$200 mil is the last I saw, but yeah, we'll never know. I absolutely concede I'm not making as much sense as I'd like, or at least not consistent with whatever argument Scorsese himself was making (I didn't really follow the debate, tbh, so probably came at it sideways). I tried to clarify, but I guess what I was getting at is that if this story and how it's told took $200 million and lots of VFX, then ultimately the impact on moviemaking is imo just as detrimental (or whatever he was arguing) as CGI people in CGI costumes flying around fighting aliens. (And per what I posted earlier, Scorsese wouldn't have even had access to the tech he used were it not for the inroads made by the Marvel bugaboos he dismissed.) I suppose that's all a different debate.

I think as a filmmaker first it’s safe to assume he’s gonna try to get as much funding for his movies as he can get away with. Also with the cast and sets and locations and fx I think you can see most of the ~160 on the screen.

Re: Sheeran/Hoffa...there’s maybe also a meta-textual element here in that Sheeran thought he was closer to Hoffa than he really was? Maybe the movie doesn’t support this...but it’s clear that he sees his proximity to Hoffa as a “great man” as the one thread of his life that connects to something meaningful.

(fwiw, I was curious, so looked up the reported budget of "Zodiac," which used extensive FX to tell a story set across decades with the same actors/characters, and it cost $85 million, at least in 2007. Tbf, I guess it's a lot easier to make younger people look older than it is to make older people look younger.)

(oh wait, it *cost* $65, but *made* $85, my mistake)

Also Zodiac depicts, like, twenty years, whereas with I Heard You Paint Houses it's more like fifty.

Scorsese's gripe w/Marvel movies was specifically with the stories they tell, not the amount of VFX or size of budget

if he doesn’t have a soul why is he so affected by his daughter rejecting him?

he feels its absence

Maybe the punchline is they talked Pesci out of retirement with a $150 million payday

I do think some of Scorseses films seem quite expensive to an extent where it seems almost decadent. Of course, his films are often about decadence. But I watched The Aviator the other night, and in that film the budget is clearly on screen in a way I found detrimental to the film.

nearly all of the Zodiac effects were environments and buildings, too

xpost Yeah, that and Gangs of NY I kind of agree *did* look a little too expensive, which is a funny complaint.

xxpost lol

Has it been reported with any degree of accuracy just how much the de-aging (keep wanting to type "de-icing") specifically cost?

xpost Yeah, that and Gangs of NY I kind of agree *did* look a little too expensive, which is a funny complaint.

― Josh in Chicago, 30. november 2019 23:50 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

With Gangs of New York especially, I felt like the script had been compromised to make it more 'commercial'. Also, both films were Miramax films, and feel like it.

You people loling about the budget -- are you accountants? What the hell do you care?

Why does anyone care about anything, come on.

The whole argument against Marvel is that it crowds out other types of film, so that other filmmakers don't get the chances they deserve. I don't think it's out of line to point out that you could make 2000 Tangerines out of The Irishman.

how many seasons of Orange is the New Black could you make, though

and we're back to Marvel, yipee

There’s a discussion to be had about whether Netflix or major studios should be pushing for more small budget flicks but their funding of this one was basically a play to look more serious by making a movie with Scorsese and a budget on par with his other work instead of a one-off

trivial things that bugged me: Pacino's wig. Why was Russell fixing his own salad in Howard Johnson's, had he brought his own oil and vinegar? And I think we hear "Sally Go Round the Roses" playing in 1960.

but I loved that opening tracking shot through the nursing home; that's a Scorsese joke right?

Pacino's rug was awful, and sure, the accent slipping wasn't fatal, and I'd be more forgiving if I thought he was good - he was much better as a Jew in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

w/r/t movie budgets: always remember how dramatically they shrank after the recession. The Mothman Prophecies, which came out in 2002, cost $30 million. that is a solid B movie that would be made by Blumhouse today for less than a million. that was the same year Scorsese scrapped together hundreds of millions to shoot GONY in Italy only to arrive with a shitty movie.

xp Yeah that was one of the only obvious meta-textual things going on in here, which I was expecting a lot more of honestly.

i mean "soul"'s a lil vague (as ever). frank has dutifully repressed himself into an inarticulate instrument; he did it young; and now, like the fascist soldiers who dug their own graves, he finds at the end of an unpleasant working life that nobody feels merciful towards him and there is no reward. was there another way he could have been? unclear. difficult to imagine. too late now.

I think it’s key that pesci *does* show him mercy, particularly coming to his aid the moment he met him and saving his ass when he could have gotten himself killed over his side job. he pledged loyalty to pesci in return for power and protection; he loses any real sense of meaning and the only relationship that really matters to him (his daughter). it’s all very faustian

Some of you were actually bothered by a wig ( didn't notice ) and the provenance of salad ingredients (wtf) ?!