¡In-de-pen-dén-cia! - The Catalonia Independence Referendum

https://s3.eestatic.com/2016/07/11/espana/Cataluna-Nacionalismo-Xenofobia-Independencia-Espana_139248818_9596988_1706x960.jpg

This deserves its own thread. Catalonia is determined to hold a referendum on independence, on October 1st. If a majority (this isn't clear cut: polls indicate yes/no being pretty much equal) votes yes - ie. that Catalonia should be an independent, sovereign republic - Catalonia could declare independence on October 3rd. 'Madrid' is calling it unconstitutional and is doing absolutely everything to prevent it, with intimidation obv only increasing.

• 'Madrid' yesterday said it would prosecute and arrest all 712 mayors of Catalonia who participate in this.
• The referendum website yesterday was blocked. Following the shutdown, Catalan president Carles Puigdemont tweeted a new address for the website so it's up again.
• Ballot boxes and papers have been seized, only for new ones obviously being made.
• The national post, Correos, today warned their staff to not 'touch' or deliver anything regarding the referendum; Catalonian organisers say they anticipated this already and have a back up delivery in place.

This seems to be heading for a real ugly climax, regardless of the outcome. Several friends who are really into the matter do not rule out Madrid will intervene with the military to prevent the referendum from happening or for independence to be declared. I'd vertainly not put it past Rajoy et al to this (they still intimidatie Basque Country and Catalonia regularly showing off tanks in the streets; I've witnessed this first hand recently, it's crazy).

Where to get your news? La Vanguardia is the biggest Catalan newspaper, in favour of the referendum. Spain's biggest paper, El País, is very much on the hand of Madrid/the government. There are lots of good correspondents in Spain, like @RaphaelMinder for NYT. Guardian have done an ok job covering it, as well as Politico.

https://www.ref1oct.cat/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/trens-premsa-final-EN.jpg

Unfortunately my Catalan colleague is on holiday this week, she is totally gungho for independence.

nation states are stupid, power shd be devolved as regionally as possible with a kind of voluntary hierarchical tier system for bigger infrastructal issues right up to a world government, and if enough people feel like they want to be a country then good luck lads off you go maybe take it steady on the ethnic cleansing eh?

mind you the Madrid gov sound like dicks which always helps

I completely, utterly, 100% agree. Now that I understand Spain's crazy history a bit better, it only makes more sense. 'Franco' never left: his clique is still very much in charge, and taunts both the Basque and Catalan people.

xp otm

EU/Spain are shitting themselves over this. EU basically threatened that it would be nigh on impossible for Catalonia to join the EU, which I think is a load of rubbish, esp seeing it's the most prosperous state in the Spanish region. They'll be embraced in no time.

One of the most laughable "threats" came from Madrid saying that if Catalonia secedes, FC Barca wouldn't be welcome to play in La Liga anymore. A day later the French Ligue 1 said they'd welcome Barca in their league lol

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe. (xp)

i spent most of my childhood family holidays in catalonia and i love it there - i've been back a lot as an adult too

kinda thrilled at the prospect of catalonian independence but lbi's comment about francoist spain never going away is otm - those tensions seem to have been repressed but never really resolved

How not a poll

this is affective judgement of course but what's most prominent in my mind are an extreme prejudice against secession and the fact that justin raimondo and julian assange are strongly behind catalan independence...

are there decent reads somewhere digging into the underlying situation?

oh and viktor orban

Good lord... We're talking about Catalan independence and you base your opinion on the contrary of what Assange thinks? Jfc.

He's got nothing to do with this, should stay out of this, and has nothing to add. Assange probably is for it for all the wrong reasons.

i don't follow european news particularly closely, nor assange, even! i don't have an opinion, yet.

I hear you. And it's pretty difficult to point you to one tell-all source about this. Guardian and Politico are covering this pretty "flat", ie mostly objectively, "all sides" etc. Which is totally fair. But still doesn't tell the whole story.

part of the same polity since the late 15th century, so like hwat is really driving this? what classes in catalonia are in favor? etc

It's rooted in the very fragmented history of Spain, which is a made-up, artificial country to begin with. Basques and Catalans are not Spanish, have never felt Spanish, and were never given the chance to feel Spanish, because the Franco regime suppressed them, violently (but also long, long before that by the made-up monarchy). Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of. Why now? Because they rallied around and got it together, finally. And support for independence is from all classes.

there is a fairly evenly distributed support for independence among the classes in Catalunya. The middle and lower-middle class would probably be the area of strongest support, probably for partly demographic reasons - a larger proportion of middle-class people living in Catalunya are from Catalan backgrounds than working-class people - where there is a larger proportion of immigrants.

independence is supported by various political parties which range from centre-right to far-left.

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

A strong sense of national identity is probably the biggest driver behind every movement for independence. Economics rarely plays much of a role. The Catalans definitely feel they are 'other' than the rest of Spain, as do the Basques. When you get down to it, it's just a much-delayed continuation of the breakup of the Hapsburg Empire.

Otm.

extreme prejudice against secession

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

despite my instinctive & uninformed dislike of the spanish nationalist right, given the polling this will only be divisive in catalonia, right? anything less than about two thirds won't settle it decisively & then you've got a brexit situation where the far enemy is forgotten as vitriol is expended on nearby traitors/collaborators etc.

Those regions are part of a country they do not belong to, do not relate with, don't share a language with, and do not want to be a part of.

I don't think it's that clear-cut tbh. There's no majority support for Basque independence, for example.

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

(sorry if I'm expressing myself badly but English is not my first language)

One should also be aware of the corruption within the Catalan government (Pujol, Mas etc.) which has been going on for decades and is often cited as a motivation for independence (to avoid persecution).

Cited by who?

Yes, citation needed on who cited it.

I'd also argue there is a majority for Basque independence, depending on how that would be shaped.

Are you from any of these regions, perhaps?

for example:

http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/abci-proces-corrupcion-201706060606_noticia.html

http://www.vozpopuli.com/porque_nada_es_casual/independencia-salvoconducto-impunidad_7_998070185.html

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

come on groovemaaan abc is a right-wing rag and if we're talking about corruption and escaping prosecution it seems you can do it quite well within the spanish state - especially if you run it. PP constantly involved in criminality with near impunity.

i have catalonian family living in Barcelona and the surrounding areas . I was just there for La Diada and the last three before that . Even within the family the attitude goes from hardcore independents who are definitly the vocal majority to the other who quietly sit there in fear that this will all be a huge mistake.

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is this because the most prominent example of ppl who want secession in the US is crazy right-wing racists? 'Cause that's not really the case with lots of independence movements around the world...

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, September 19, 2017 5:54 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

uhh what do you mean, "unless" isn't that what they are all trying to do?? scots nationalism, all of it?

yes the US experience is a strong influence. also that the product of nationalist secession would be weaker and more dependent states. i don't think it's a priori bad, i'm just v leery on the concept of "self-determination" being applied at the level of an ethno-linguistic group. look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

isn't english nationalism, while a different beast, itself pretty sus? lega nord?

there's a minor, half-joke of a movement for californian secession. it's a fake solution to real problems, a fantasy of abdication from doing real political work.

There's a massive difference between imperialism and self-determination.

Also, maybe someone who admits they don't know much about European politics shouldn't actually be making proclamations about who has been historically oppressed, nor to what degree?

scottish nationalism is not ethnocentric. the scottish government and scottish pro-independence voters - who are predominantly politically left-wing - want to be part of the eu and have a less restrictive vision for immigration than is the norm in the rest of the United Kingdom. Support for Scottish independence is stronger among people born and raised in scotland than people born outside - especially those born in the rest of the UK - regardless of ethnic background

death to the ethno-state, bring back the ottoman empire

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

... bigots that is.

there is definitely not a majority for basque independence in euskal herria, with many people in those regions not even considering themselves basque and support for basque independence extremely low in many areas, especially the french basque country

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, September 19, 2017 4:30 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is true and I failed to address this. Gipúzcoa surely is in favor, but is alone in this. Viscaya and certainly Navarre do not desire this. French Basques also don't want to.

yeah this is what i would have said if my brain worked a bit better and i could remember anything i ever read :)

If we'd try really hard, together we could bring the competence of one man to the table here :)

look i just don't think the catalans or the scots can claim the same kind of oppression from a central state as say the timorese or south sudanese.

I don't really think they need to, is the thing - being culturally and politically distinct enough that the majority of the population wants it seems reason enough for me, what with nation states being products of contingency in the first place.

And yeah it doesn't really map onto ethnic categories in most modern European examples, society's far too globalized.

Police have raided Catalan ministries this morning and the postal service last night in an attempt to get hold of all the voting cards.

They were also checking the books and administration, as they feel every cent of public money spent on the referendum is illegal funding.

This is going to get so, so nasty. Heard a commentator on Catalan tv say he expects the referendum will take place - as in, people will cast a vote, somehow - but Spain will actively, and physically, try to disrupt it.

you know what really reduces support for independence movements?

Heh otm.

This seems pretty fucked, in a way that won't end well (is my trenchant analysis)

Most of the out and out bigots in Scotland are waving Union Jacks btw. We supplied quite a lot of those to the USA back in the day.

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

https://www.nationalia.info/new/11003/thousands-in-streets-after-spanish-military-police-arrests-top-officials-over-independence

I think a few got lost, do ye have a return postal address?

It'll have an Ayrshire postcode but, no thanks, they cause enough problems when they come over here on the 12th of July or to watch Rangers games.

The stupidity of the Spanish government's response to all this beggars belief, though, according to my Catalan workmate, Rajoy is famously an ignoramus of almost Trumpian dimensions.

Rajoy is ridiculed a lot - rightfully so - because he comes with one-liners that are supposed to/according to him, profound, when in fact their utter dumb and illogical. "A plate is a plate and a glass is a glass" being one of the most referenced. No-one knows what he meant.

(ok that last one isn't technically "illogical", but you get my drift)

Catalans find this especially annoying as they're the ones propping up the rest of Spain, economically, or so I've been led to believe.

this bit is what makes it seem kind of odd to me that so many UK leftists are gung-ho behind Catalan independence - wouldn't the result be more wealth being concentrated in this relatively prosperous region/less wealth being redistributed to poorer regions?

It's what matters most to people, I reckon. Catalonia culturally is very different from Spain, and in recent times always wanted independence. It was bombed by Mussolini with support from Franco during the civil war. It was oppressed culturally, linguistically and politically under Franco. Their own president was executed by the regime at Montjuic.

If you take all that, I think most left people would argue that enough is enough and they should no longer be oppressed, and allowed to have a say on their future. I think that's how most people look at it.

Besides, independence in the short term will probably be very costly anyway. They'll have to neg their way into the EU.

I just cannot see Rajoy allowing it. He'd literally go to war over this, I fear.

As tensions increase ahead of the vote, economist and CUP activist Pau Llonch and Izquierda Unida MP Alberto Garzón discuss how the Left should approach the question of Catalan self-determination.

Interesting piece up on Jacobin

cool i'll check that out. jacobin's non-US affairs pieces have often been bad but i've done enough grousing herein!!

The two writers engaging in conversation are both Catalan though :)

Madrid announced it is seizing all power and de facto nationalizing the Catalan police Mossos, replacing it with their own Guardia Civil. Catalan PM just said they won't allow it and Mossos will continue to work.

Jesus

bump for greater visibility. this is tense shit.

It's terrifying. I'm following everything about this, obv heavily invested in this bcz of my Basque adventure, many friends from there going to Barcelona for this in solidarity. And then there's the Kurdish ref, with my Kurdish gf being a big supporter, voice abt it in national media.

And then this weekend I'm trying to finish an essay about the end of autonomy after 513 years, coming January 1st, of my own minority. My head is spinning.

Are there any English language news outlets reporting this fully? If so please link. Preferably unbiased straightforward reporting but maybe that's too much to ask in this day and age?

The ft has been pretty good but paywalled.

The Guardian's been decent as well on the day to day stuff, but ofcourse for all the minor details following a live blog from a Spanish/Catalan newspaper is best.

Good (albeit brief) rundown of how things came to be, from 2003 on, here

saw video recently of masked spanish nationalist goons invading and assaulting a catalan press conference. untranslated, so unsure of the details. ugly shit.

Good (albeit brief) rundown of how things came to be, from 2003 on, here

― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, September 26, 2017 3:26 AM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that is good

what would happen to the Balearics if Catalonia ever got independence?

they are part of els països catalans and many catalan nationalists would like them to be part of an independent catalunya. the proposed independence movement atm though would be creating an independent state out of the current autonomous community of catalunya

but catalan nationalism is actually a fringe ideology on the balearics

📊 OCTOBER 1 #REFERENDUM POLLING DATA
ELECTORAL ROLL: 5,343,358 voters
2,315 POLLING STATIONS

— Catalan Government (@catalangov) September 29, 2017

Madrid wants to close the airspace of Catalonia on Sunday. Might not like pics of thousands in the streets idk.

Police firing rubber bullets, 38 injured.

thank god the EU is trying to do something about this

I'm so tired of hearing other European leaders talking about this crisis.

Shambles. Seeing the Starship Troopers from the Guardia Civil bash eldery, raid ballot boxes, shooting rubber bullets. Disgraceful.

It's almost as if Rajoy want to ignite the flame for idenpendence even more.

El Pais reporting that some people have been able to vote multiple times. Apparently you can also print out the ballots at home. Has any international publication confirmed this?

Los ciudadanos que quieran votar en el referéndum podrán hacerlo en cualquier colegio electoral [...] Una misma persona ha podido votar dos o más veces, según el ministerio de Interior [...] No es necesario usar sobres y se aceptarán las papeletas impresas en casa.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/hechos/1506847430_088864.html

Typical scrupulously impartial coverage from El Pais I assume?

El País backs the government (on this as well).

Reports of 337 people injured. Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon have condemned the violence of the Spanish police. Not a word from our Prime Minister yet - she's probably never been asked about by the British media though.

Same here. And it doesn't even matter, it'll be "please be cautious everyone let democracy prevail szzzz etc" from all EU leaders probably.

"we appeal to the Catalonian people to stop hitting themselves"

Seems like the Barca-Las Palmas match is off. Las Palmas had asked the Spanish FA to wear a Spanish flag on their shirts, and the FA allowed it. Oil on flames.

El País backs the government (on this as well).

Backing the government is one thing, completely fabricating information is another. I don't think El Pais has sunken to the lows of e.g. Libertad Digital (yet).

I have to say that I'm a bit irritated by the relative one-sidedness of this thread. But maybe I've been brainwashed by the relentless media coverage here. Obviously the PP has handled this whole affair very badly, but I still think one can legitimately critize the holding of this referendum.

Of course one can. And feel free to do so, to make it relatively more both-sidedness of the thread. It's not happening on its own y'know...

Yeah I mean, the handling of this is awful but I don't really know what to make of a referendum being called in this way. The mechanics or legality of one region leaving a country are pretty complex but it seems If you are part of a country you need to be given the right to hold a referendum. Perhaps this kind of reaction was what they were hoping for - it'll certainly help the independence cause.

The whole thing is p weird - like if I'm living in the region and didn't want a referendum then what does this mean for me, what would it mean if it was carried? Equally the idea of being "granted" a referendum by the ruling power is strange.

Dunno. The reaction is to be condemned for sure but the situation is pretty morally complicated.

Watching Barca-Las Palmas on telly with an empty Nou Camp is... interesting.

Yet, somehow, there still was a pitch invader.

odd article in the observer today interviewing a bunch of old catalan lefties who say this referendum is a distraction from the real issues but it was v v light on any explanation or analysis of why they thought this was so other than "lol younguns"

Pitch invader was almost as weird as Suarez tearing up his own shirt out of frustration and just... not getting back on the pitch for the last minute?

LG, you are otm. If I came across biased it is because I do think the Catalans deserve to speak out. The Catalan government sneakily pushed the needed regional legislative final vote through to make it happen, which was also nagl. Then, Spain has frustrated every attempt at dialogue about Catalan future, is making exceptions for the Basques but not them, and is just not home when Catalunya wants to talk to them.

A status quo between Spain saying "this is unconstitutional" and the Catalans saying "we have the right and need to vote" can just not stand; the two can't live together for all eternity. I think it is Madrdid's fault for not coming up with solutions, not even trying to engage with the Catalans. They've stuck their head in the sand.

I have no idea how it should have been decided, but can't fault Catalunya to finally just say: ok, we'll just go for it. Smashing it down violently certainly is the worst reaction Rajoy could have thought of.

Calling it morally complicated is an understatement.

Holding a referendum that may not be illegal or sending out a bunch of black clad stormtroopers to stop the holding of a referendum that may not be illegal - I know what looks worse to the outside world.

The Foreign Office has spoken:

"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

(xp) may not be legal, I mean.

Makes u think xp

Feel free to crack some Catalan heads say the chaps at the FO.

this might be an interesting read. Esp. towards the end it makes some interesting points

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

maybe the future of the EU will be a lot of 'pseudo' independent regions (like Catalonia) under a powerful EU state.

anyway, Catalunyan nationalists were surely hoping for this reaction, they might even like to see one true martyr. All in all, no smart moves by Rajoy. The referendum in it's original form wouldn't have reached a big majority (if it reached a majority at all).

I wonder which European region will be next, there's some rich cats in Italy, who'd like to see an independent Padania.

and just like Spain, the Italian government is rotten and corrupt.

Yep, Lega Nord already pushing for it.

yay... as I see it, and I am sure it's not an original idea, nationalism is usually a Big State mechanism to control the 'little people' with a couple of naive dreams.
So.. no real sympathy from me for this Catalonian 'independence', especially considering the fact that they are a rich region in a poor country, and also considering the fact that Catalonia is already tremendously autonomous. So really, why bother.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day. When Spain then, still, refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion about things, for decades, enough becomes enough. The level of autonomy then doesn't matter, to most. I can see why they desire it. You could turn it around: despite their prosperity they are striving for independence. Knowing fully well that prosperity isn't a given in the foreseeable future if they were to secede.

I agree, as I said up here, that it wasn't a given they sí vote would have won, if it all. But that was three weeks ago...

A (European, non-Spanish) friend has posted this on facebook, titled "a bit of perspective" - https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841

Spoiler: it's not a good article

So.. no real sympathy from me for this Catalonian 'independence', especially considering the fact that they are a rich region in a poor country, and also considering the fact that Catalonia is already tremendously autonomous. So really, why bother.

Oh I think a lot more people in Catalonia will be bothering after today's events.

Perspective of an immigrant who lives in Quebec: the idiocy and cruelty of one Prime Minister is not an argument for the secession of a nation, nor his having a different language, that's just some sort of ethno-nationalism, it looks petty and backwards in an increasingly multi-cultural world. On top of that the fact that they are going to create significant poverty in other regions of Spain makes the whole thing seem very very selfish. Of course democracy prevails and they should be allowed to vote without the interference of the state police, and that spanish constitution looks like a joke for this issue. Howeverve, today's event doesn't move the needle for me, at all. This is not South Sudan, there isn't enough oppression for me to justify, the HDI is higher in Catalonia than in Spain. At least Quebec had the argument that it kept lagging economically decade after decade.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day.

In what way (genuine question)? I thought the Basque Country was at least fiscally autonomous. The linguistic oppression also seems to have ceased.

there isn't enough oppression for me to justify

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

only 400 people injured, battered by policemen and rubber bullets fired. It's OK chaps you've not reached sufficient oppression levels on the Van Horn Street Scale yet, carry on.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

You realize, I hope, that this attitude is based in a belief in the superiority of your own culture.

only 400 people injured, battered by policemen and rubber bullets fired. It's OK chaps you've not reached sufficient oppression levels on the Van Horn Street Scale yet, carry on.

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 4:45 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So you would transform the lives of millions of spaniards for present and future generations over the stupidity and cruelty of one prime minister? If you think so, good for you. I don't. Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly, but I mean that personally the events of today don't change my opinion that secession of Catalonia is a bad idea and that I would vote no. If the Catalans people decided en masse that they believe it is better for them good, I think it should be respected as such by the government, but I would still consider it to be a selfish and petty political play.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:42 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Was going to say.. So glad someone did what noone else on earth was capable of until now: 'measuring' oppression and saying when it's called or uncalled for. One of ilx no less.

The Basque and Catalan regions face intimidation to this day.

In what way (genuine question)? I thought the Basque Country was at least fiscally autonomous. The linguistic oppression also seems to have ceased.

― groovemaaan, Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:24 PM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Basque country is fiscally autonomous. Catalunya wanted the same for a long time, but Madrid refuses. Linguistic oppression is p much ceased, yes.

Some examples:

- Both in Catalunya and Basque country - who both have their own police - the Guardia Civil still patrols. Not needed (nor wanted), but they do. They apprehend Basque and Catalan people way more often. There are countless stories (also from friends of mine from both regions) where they'll be pulled over, have their license etc checked, not in offense, but kept on the side of the road for an hour or two. Not allowed to phone, just for no reason at all. If you protest they'll arrest you, so most just sit it out.
- When I was over in June there was a much publicized pub brawl on a Saturday night. Two guys got into a fight fight, both drunk. One was a Spaniard. He got a fine of like 70 euros. The other was Basque, and was charged with 'a terrorist act'. He's been locked away awaiting trial ever since iirc.
- 'Madrid', a couple of times every year, has tanks and military personel drive through both Catalunya and Basque Country. It's not a "parade" as we know it. It's merely to intimidate and show who's in charge.
- The now defunct ETA (they handed in all their weapons in April) is still a stick with which Madrid beats the Basques. They have put the mostly already innocent prisoners charged with ETA ties in prisons as far away from Basque Country as can be. Cadiz and the likes. People from Basque Country have asked Madrid for years now for 'Etxera' - bring them home. Not to be freed, but at least in a prison more nearby. Now, if family wants to visit them, it takes them renting a coach and all weekend back and to, to see them the allowed hour a week. This is not clear oppression maybe, but it's to taunt and make things as inconvenient within the boundaries of the law as possible.
- Final example: Guardia Civil also patrols cafe's and bars, mostly in very small villages, after midnight. Now technically, they've the law on their side, for some places have to be shut after midnight. What they do - and I was sitting on a terrace when this happened, utterly confused - is they drive by reallll slow. They just look at you and the people, then turn a corner. Everyone packed up like there'd been a tornado, within three minutes a lively terrace with drinks, hurting noone, was gone. Chairs and tables literally thrown inside and the fence shut down. Two minutes after that the GC drove past again. Stopped. Checked with flashlights to see if the place really was abandoned, and then left. Next day a villager came to me to explain what the hell happened: if they drive by the second time and the plaxe isn't completely shut, they arrest the owner of the place. Again: might be within the law, but it's the strictest reading of it, and it *only* happens in small places in Catalunya and Basque Country.

Your culture is different, big whoop.

¡No pasarán!

http://i.imgur.com/qbP4oSX.png

The Spanish Association of Accredited Abortion Clinics estimated that about 100,000 of the 118,000 abortions carried out in 2012 would be illegal under the new legislation. The revision was part of the 2011 election manifesto of the Party Popular, which, strongly influenced by the Roman Catholic church, was vigorously opposed by most opposition parties and women's groups, who saw it as an attack on women's rights.

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Sacred_Heart_Christ_statue_executed.jpg

propaganda photo iirc

Some 6,832 Catholic clergy were killed, mostly in the summer of 1936. At least 38,000 in the Red Terror. At least 200,000 in Franco's subsequent White Terror. There was no lack of real animosity.

^ At least 38,000 total in the Red...

Aside: the enthusiasm seen when extras sing "The Internationale" in Doctor Zhivago, that's all real. Most knew it by heart when David Lean filmed in Spain, 25 years after the war.

90% vote for independence.

I imagine the turnout wasn't exactly great.

pray tell us what the internationally agreed level of not too much oppression is?

Whatever it is I would imagine those selfish bastards the Scots fell well short of it, the nerve of them trying to break up the glorious United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Gawd Bless Her Britannic Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, huzzah!

nationalism and nation-states are dangerous bullshit concepts, except the nation-states that already happened to exist at whichever arbitrary point in time we want to set the clock. those must endure forever until the end of time. if they do murderous and repressive things in response to long-pent-up acts of defiance then probably the defiant people did something or other to deserve it. actually probably they even really want it to happen because they are evil and worship death. look it even says so in the papers.

sanpaku i know and agree, i am not intending to suggest that one staged photo erases other things that did in fact happen (some much worse)

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

this is more like when Westmount seceded from the City of Montreal to prevent poors from taking books out of their library than Quebec independence tbh

so absolutely no concern on how this might affect the poor autonomonies of Andalusia or Extremadura?

Should Scots stick around in the UK because there are regions of England that are much poorer than Scotland? Even if they think the concept of the UK is a busted flush of a country whose 'values' they no longer share?

yeah I don't accept the argument against independence that it would impoverish other poor parts of Spain. annexing Morocco would improve the poverty of Morocco, is that an argument for annexing Morocco?

state legitimacy is a very complicated set of hypotheticals, but the de facto legitimacy definitely comes from the barrel of a police gun

It's not an abstract concern, imo - there are people in Padania, Bavaria, London, California and Donetesk, who all make an argument that they'd be better off without the millstone of the rest of the country around their necks and some form of solidarity with the people hit by the potential economic impact of that is a reason to reconsider, albeit not necessarily a reason to rule it out. A future of wealthy microstates surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty isn't unthinkable.

the UK is almost already a wealthy microstate surrounded by etc

We already have a world of wealthy states surrounded by great swathes of unemployment and poverty: this is western Europe's relation to Africa, for instance. Is the potential economic impact of recolonizing e.g. Algeria a reason to consider its recolonization?

Not sure if you've seen an non-Pangaea atlas recently..

xp Almost the entire history of colonisation is extracting wealth, not sharing it.

I'm not opposed to Catalan independence per se but if the current format of the nation state has a value, part of that value is ensuring that international economic hubs don't float off into their own orbit and make some contribution to a larger group.

If an independent Catalonia is a microstate, than so are Bulgaria, Denmark and Libya, all with smaller populations.

The historical formation of macrostates seems driven by fear of other predatory states and dynastic prestige. The current hedgemon meddles and stirs hornets' nests, but isn't exactly predatory. The runners-up are fairly isolationist. International tariff unions, multinational corporations, and even metric standards provide economies of scale that once required larger states. My fear, should the world devolve into 500 nations (rather than the current 100 and 100+ microstates), has less to do with the flight of wealth from welfare commitments, than the lack of any counter to the power of multinationals. Then again, politicians in even our largest states are readily bought.

xp But why should that contribution be to the larger group to which they presently belong, rather than to some different or yet larger group that includes developing world nations? If goodwill toward others is what's to drive "nation" formation, then which "others" are the relevant ones?

very interesting discussion, and it remains a very interesting 'case' for the European future.

yesterday got me all thinking about the 'lure' or the 'illusion' of 'independencia'. Like, as humans we know all too well we aren't independent or free at all, on so many levels. We are chained to our bodies, Nietschze killed 'free will' (and it always was a concept created in the Enlightenment), also in the modern globalized capitalistic world, we are even less free. Just work slaves. Now, to me this all explains our sympathy for any struggle for independence, who doesn't love that... but in what way would a 'free' Catalonia, and its citizens, be any more free than is is (or they are) now. To me, these struggles seem kinda naive and useless. I would rather have people spending their energy on 'empowering' their neighbourhood, thus, on a more basic level. Also, a guy like Puigdemont, would be a Rajoy if he was born in Madrid. Simple as that.

it looks petty and backwards in an increasingly multi-cultural world.

These arguments only make sense for me if you're pushing for a One World State; otherwise, there is no reason to find Catalunya wanting independence more backwards than, say, Spain and France not spontaneously merging into one nation (or the US and Canada, come to that).

politicians in even our largest states are readily bought

yes. I see the argument for microstates as offering less resistance to multinational corporations but it's possible that the opposite is true - macrostates centralize power and control so many more communities, regions, polities that they may offer a more efficient form of government for multinationals to exploit: fewer people to influence, larger rewards for exploiting that influence

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

Los periodistas de TVE se plantan en Torrespaña contra la manipulación del 1-O con carteles de "vergüenza" https://t.co/i1mtHgZcJP pic.twitter.com/CeIiFFVnIB

— eldiario.es (@eldiarioes) October 2, 2017

Remarkable: jorunalists of the national public broadcaster of Spain, TVE, are protesting this morning against their own "biased" reporting, "down playing" the GC violence, holding up signs in Spanish and Catalan saying they feel "ashamed"

from yesterday

Firefighters now protecting people from Spanish police#CatalanReferendum pic.twitter.com/i5gZ5hIz1k

— Gissur Simonarson (@GissiSim) October 1, 2017

as I was trenchantly hinting at earlier, the independence problem is only a one-eyed way of formulating the far more intricate problems of state legitimacy. to say "by what right should Catalonia exist?" has no more value than asking "by what right should Spain exist?"

I disagree. The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself. By contrast, asking for sovereignty for a new state that would undermine the coherence of a current state requires, imo, an exceptional case to be made. nb obv there are some priors here (about the desirability of states) that some (anarchists?) prob can't get onboard with.

that's the classic argument against any sort of dramatic political upheaval but it obviously serves the powerful and leads to political decay

The coherence & integrity of current sovereign states - in light of the alternative (chaos) - has inherent value that needs not justify itself.

That would mean the current status is always preferable to anything else. Would you say this in, say, ten years after Russia annexed Crimea, and go: "well there's a coherence now, changing it would probably lead to chaos." Where to draw the line? When is one a coherent and sovereign state? Spain is only a democracy (in name) since 1975. Not trolling, just think it's very hard to carve along these loose lines.

Ogmor otm

It only means that the case for disembodying a state requires a more significant argument than the case for leaving one intact. it doesn't mean the status quo is always preferable.

seems like there has been a pretty significant argument and then both sides of the debate decided to show their ass

Does make more sense. Still a slippery slope though. xp

Ya Tombot otm

I'd vote this as the best take on the weekend's events I've read so far, English-language at least. And yes, it's on Deadspin.

https://deadspin.com/catalonia-explodes-1819044747

It's not bad. Sports angle seems a bit forced, probably to make sense of it for a USA audience, but that can be forgiven. Going back to Germany WOI and WOII in the end is more problematic; at the very least a very poorly executed throwback to world war, to comment on this specific event. Jumping from "To get an idea, imagine Mitt Romney and, say, Jill Stein in the same political alliance. The only thing that binds them is a shared sense of nationalism." to 1930s Germany misses a whole slew of finer points at play here tbh.

I suspected much was elided, so thank you for that. (The longer leaps are imaginative as you note, though I feel not totally irrelevant.) The sports angle is definitely the hook/reason it's on the site, but I think that's useful (no less useful than explaining what kneeling during the anthem was about, say).

I suppose we should be grateful he didn't mention Shakira.

I have a soft spot for Waka Waka, great tune is that!

No, as I said, it's not a bad piece Ned. Esp not if it's an entrance piece for most of the readers.

Not a good time for a Spanish holiday

i support substate national movements as a rule unless they're trying to create an ethno-state
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, September 18, 2017 5:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why?

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Sunday, October 1, 2017 6:54 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well i should have qualified it a bit more, i support the right to secede via referenda as has been allowed to sub-state national movements in Quebec and Scotland.

the Spanish government could've allowed a referendum and Si would've probably lost. Now unthinkable that Catalunya won't be independent sooner or later due to Spain's actions.

Spanish king cracking down hard on the referendum. So, they're really trying to break-up here, I guess. oh what a wonderful Machiavellian world.

and no mention of the police violence for at least a bit of balance.

Fuck a King obviously.

honest question: do Spanish people care about the current king? I know the last one was pretty popular before all the elephant stuff.

I assume the seperatists are not hugely invested in his opinion one way or the other

Truly a king of all the people. Can't say I'm surprised, but this was fierce yo. Ludo otm.

I don't think people care a lot about the king. They've had their share of scandals like every other monarchy etc. It's probably the shock of seeing him choose sides, not even trying to balance things a bit. It's for the best to know where he stands tho.

Spain are playing on Friday too, could be interesting.

whom better to give lessons on democracy than uh...the king https://t.co/qiWU5TUu3Y

— KRANG TEEN NELSON (@KrangTNelson) October 3, 2017

Independence declared in the Catalan parliament.

beat me to it.

a couple of weeks too late I'd say, at least, for the momentum of the movement.

Anway, we'll see how much jail time Puigdemont will do. Ecuador might lend a helping hand again, I guess.

Up to 30 years of jail time possible iirc. No way Madrid will hold back.

this is going to be very messy i feel

senate in Madrid votes for direct rule of Catalunya

The independent Catalan State in 1934 lasted about 10 hours, and lead to 74 people being killed. Let's hope it doesn't come to anything like that, but I wouldn't bet on anything tbh

we were very close to moving there last year. feeling pretty good about our final decision to say here at this point .

here's to good feelings

the in-laws seem to be having fun atm
https://streamable.com/155yi

Puigdemont and people from parliament will probably be arrested. But for scope: there are 300,000 civil servants alone. Good luck to Madrid trying to get them to do what you want.

i really am worried about bloodshed.

Obviously NATO and/or the EU will step in NB sarcasm

Sadly otm. It's the same meaningless 'pls to be civil kay amigos? bye lol'.

is open warfare a possibility/likelihood? I mean I can see the Madrid gov't sending in troops/police and doing some martial law shit, but do the Catalonians actually have arms they could take up? would we be looking at some kind guerilla insurgency?

the mossos d'esquadra - catalan police force - are divided on issue of independence and estranged from the spanish guardia civil

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-mossos-analy/demoralized-and-divided-inside-catalonias-police-force-idUSKBN1CT2MT

there are no paramilitary orgs

yet

getting a paramilitary org together takes some doing mind, and usually requires both foreign sponsorship and a concentrated urban, working-class base in specific geographical areas which become strongholds (catalunya doesn't really have this)

Demonstrations in Barcelona today for unity with Spain... 300,000 people according to the Guardia Urbana, 1.3 million according to organisers/supporters. Sounds a large turnout whatever the true figure.

I've been really struggling to clarify my thoughts on the situation lately, after discussions with my Spanish teachers and my Spanish partner have questioned some of my previous conceptions.

Everyone's seems to have forgotten about this but the regional election count is on.

i haven't forgotten.

seems there will probably be a spanish nationalist majority.

My Catalan colleague was extremely disappointed that I'd forgotten :(

(xp) I would expect so.

didnt forget (je me souviens?)

but there is not much that catalonians can do i fear

well apparently I'm wrong. there will likely be a pro-independence majority.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171221/433800930490/elecciones-catalanas-encuesta-cierre-urna.html

though Ciudadanos (new "centrist" spanish nationalist party that has emerged in the last few years and became the main spanish nationalist party in catalunya) will be the party with most votes/seats

Let's wait and see.

Def not forgotten, just didn't have any time left to post abt here. Been in touch with a lot of Catalan friends about it, too.

It seems to close to call yet. Exit poll had pro-indep losing a couple of seats. Wait and see otm.

looks like it happened. independence parties will still have a majority, though with 2 less seats. Cs the biggest party. With the surprise on the nationalist side being that Junts per Catalunya got more seats than ERC.

if the spanish government had anything about them they would allow a binding referendum, free the nationalist prisoners, and watch as independence narrowly failed at the ballot box. this thing could be more or less done and dusted in a year.

watch while they do the opposite

"With more than 99% of votes counted, the pro-independence parties Together for Catalonia, Republican Left of Catalonia and Popular Unity were together on course to win a total of 70 seats, giving them a majority."

sorry didn't read last posts before posting

Some of the footage being posted online is truly horrifying.

warning: this video is upsetting.

Barcelone: la police espagnole sur la sellette pour ses violences contre les manifestants https://t.co/q9H2tbZkg1 @denterd pic.twitter.com/4YeSW6VDyI

— L'important (@Limportant_fr) October 19, 2019

holy shit at that dude managing to maintain his composure while being followed down the street by a gang of cops battering the fuck out of his legs

Ten armed Spanish policemen beating simultaneously an unarmed Catalan. Tonight it has been a carnage. #HelpCatalonia pic.twitter.com/07autW19iB

— Help Catalonia 🎗 (@CataloniaHelp2) October 18, 2019

fucking fascists

The Spanish PM @sanchezcastejon expelled by the Health Staff from the Barcelona’s hospital where he tried to do a performance with a policeman injured. Outside too hundreds call him a criminal pic.twitter.com/W5kfZmdchw

— Help Catalonia 🎗 (@CataloniaHelp2) October 21, 2019

Shocking scenes in Barcelona tonight.

Police clashing with demonstrators, and being completely overwhelmed.

pic.twitter.com/fesQIFwwAH

— Joshua Potash 🆘 (@JoshuaPotash) October 27, 2019

hey, people are having a drink, let's attack them

Una altra actuació entranyable de @mossos
Res a dir? pic.twitter.com/gBNAOP7BFw

— Roger Vidal 🎗️ (@RogerVidalColl) October 27, 2019

Fascists off the leash.