Barfly Best Practices

A companion thread to Bartender Best Practices

what happened to bar etiquette

before you leave you gotta stick $20 in the Doggie Diamonds machine. I swear it's gonna hit any day now.

When unsure if a bar is open, approach from the opposite side of the street because

be sure to lock the bathroom door before snorting that cocaine

and if you do get caught, offer to share

tip your fucking bartender

with w33d

if they smoke it, then definitely

should be a list thread?

corollary to the above: don't smoke weed in the bar, not even in the smoking area

A quick shake of salt on your cocktail napkin keeps it from sticking to the bottom of your glass.

You can use a straw to try someone else's drink without germ concerns (insert a straw, plug the top end with your thumb, lift it out and sample).

Ear wax and nose oil are good for dispelling bubbles (rub your nose or put your finger in your ear, then put the finger into excessively heady beer).

The old "dollar per drink" tip makes sense only for beer and rail drinks. 20% of pretax total is best for tabs that include more attentive service (hand muddling, etc.).

Coffee-based drinks consumed in the evening will usually be made with really terrible coffee.

If you don't want people to talk to you, work on a crossword puzzle or prop up a book on a condiment caddy. Protip: choose a very boring book or one with a nondescript cover, so no one tries to initiate conversation with "whatcha readin'?"

If there is a TV tuned to Fox (even if it is muted) ask for it to be changed.

if it doesn't fold, it isn't a tip (exceptions for regulars may apply)

Depends on the amount

this thread and the weather today make me want to go spend a few hours at my local tbh

haha otm

See you there dude

Sometimes a regular sitting near the taps gets to have a partial beer left by a dead keg (and yes it is still a free drink that you should consider when tipping).

General tipping guidance (may not apply for non-USians) is that you shouldn't try to punish a bad service experience with an insultingly small tip because you end up screwing over people who were not responsible.

If you had three glasses of the same wine, you could have bought the bottle.

Note: UK-style "and for yourself?" tipping does not work well in USian bars, as the bar staff is usually not drinking during working hours. I have seen people try to do it and it fell flat.

cocktail napkins are so beyond horrible, there is this wonderful invention called the coaster...

Who knows what life is or where it’s going
So cheers

Always pay with cash. This eliminates the risks of:

- Forgetting your credit card
- the bartender taking advantage of your inebriation to overcharge you

Also bar staff (and other service workers) have better visibility into what happens to cash than to credit/debit charges.

Oh and speaking of inebriation: if a bartender offers to call a cab for you, DON'T ARGUE. If they think you need a cab then you need a frickin cab.

if taking a car to the bar, park or get dropped off a block away and arrive by foot. No one likes a VIP.

When an interested party asks how old you think they are, subtract 5 from your gut feeling

If you are the only person left in the bar very close to closing time...please leave.

If there is more than one bartender
Choose one, preferably the older,
And when it comes time for subsequent rounds,
Always order from the same one,
To increase the chance of buy backs

May have changed opinions on paying with a card vs cash. I only got charged for 3 while consuming 5 today. Maybe the Card allows the bartender to keep the discounts on the DL, thereby rewarding good tipping regulars without being subject to the inquisitiveness of nosy fuckers at the bar who keep track of this shit

one thing i genuinely never know is whether bartenders prefer to be tipped in cash or just adding it on the card

Re: paying with cash vs a card -
In the past few weeks I’ve been undercharged and overcharged using a card. I think it’s probably better just using cash

Testing the new bartender on buyback etiquette

I hate having to use a card at the bar. plus if they want to comp you a drink let them do so with a wink and a hand motion, not in a way that makes you think it could have been a "user error"

If it's a quiet afternoon, testing the new bartender on their Old Fashioneds.

Stick with one bartender, especially if she pours them well

If you’re aware of a shift change later in the day, don’t leave the change of a large bill on the bar to pay for your nexts — instead, tip for each as they’re poured. This makes it easier for the early shifter to sign off without them having to remind you and thus ask for their tip explicitly

very otm

very incomprehensible

Otm, I try to be aware of this when I can.

Sic: let's say you like to start drinking at 5:30, and you intend to stay for a while and have several drinks. But the bartender who gives you your first two drinks works only till 6. Then a different bartender comes in.

At this point, all the assembled barflies have a choice:

1. Close out their tab, so as to be sure their tips reach Bartender One. Then open a new tab with Bartender Two, so as to make sure that she or he gets tipped appropriately too.

2. Allow the tab to remain open and be transferred to Bartender Two. This runs the risk of stiffing Bartender One out of the tips on the first couple drinks.

Maybe the bar has a system for equitably distributing tips in this situation, maybe they don't; maybe they just figure it will work out karmically. You don't know, and it would be awkward to ask. So clearly Option 1 is better barfly etiquette.

CAVEAT: this assumes you are running a tab. If I understand Calstars correctly, calstars's seems to be talking more about a pay-as-you-go model. Which is also a tip-as-you-go model, unless you're a dick.

That model can be elegant, especially if you're using cash and rounding up generously to nice tidy whole-dollar amounts. (Speaking in USian terms.)

Two twenties and two tens says sic is not a barfly

I thought sic was just referring to the business of tipping itself

Is sic a British? I forget.

sic is an Australian on long-term loan to Seattle

let's say you like to start drinking at 5:30, and you intend to stay for a while and have several drinks. But the bartender who gives you your first two drinks works only till 6. Then a different bartender comes in.

At this point, all the assembled barflies have a choice:

1. Close out their tab, so as to be sure their tips reach Bartender One. Then open a new tab with Bartender Two, so as to make sure that she or he gets tipped appropriately too.

2. Allow the tab to remain open and be transferred to Bartender Two. This runs the risk of stiffing Bartender One out of the tips on the first couple drinks.

Maybe the bar has a system for equitably distributing tips in this situation, maybe they don't; maybe they just figure it will work out karmically. You don't know, and it would be awkward to ask. So clearly Option 1 is better barfly etiquette.

none of this comes close to explaining what "don’t leave the change of a large bill on the bar to pay for your nexts" means

also

CAVEAT: this assumes you are running a tab. If I understand Calstars correctly, calstars's seems to be talking more about a pay-as-you-go model. Which is also a tip-as-you-go model, unless you're a dick.

I assumed the same re calstars' model so you are additionally saying that your entire explanation is not intended to explain it?

(plus yeah re tombot

If you’re aware of a shift change later in the day, don’t leave the change of a large bill on the bar to pay for your nexts — instead, tip for each as they’re poured. This makes it easier for the early shifter to sign off without them having to remind you and thus ask for their tip explicitly

Otm, I try to be aware of this when I can.

Sic: let's say you like to start drinking at 5:30, and you intend to stay for a while and have several drinks. But the bartender who gives you your first two drinks works only till 6. Then a different bartender comes in.

At this point, all the assembled barflies have a choice:

1. Close out their tab, so as to be sure their tips reach Bartender One. Then open a new tab with Bartender Two, so as to make sure that she or he gets tipped appropriately too.

2. Allow the tab to remain open and be transferred to Bartender Two. This runs the risk of stiffing Bartender One out of the tips on the first couple drinks.

Maybe the bar has a system for equitably distributing tips in this situation, maybe they don't; maybe they just figure it will work out karmically. You don't know, and it would be awkward to ask. So clearly Option 1 is better barfly etiquette.

CAVEAT: this assumes you are running a tab. If I understand Calstars correctly, calstars's seems to be talking more about a pay-as-you-go model. Which is also a tip-as-you-go model, unless you're a dick.

That model can be elegant, especially if you're using cash and rounding up generously to nice tidy whole-dollar amounts.

a slightly more elegant model is: pay a listed price for things.)

If carrying a cash balance on the bar itself, add new bills by placing them perpendicular, on the side of the bartender, to your stack of smaller bills.

Confirm your tip with the bartender. Never leave cash unattended.

I don’t worry about shift changes and tipping. I drink at the same bar all the time. They all know I got them overall.

Smoove Jeff
Respeck

can I get a buyback or what

Cal yr top tier single malt

Make a double, neat chief

When you’re on your 7th and wondering when the right time is to leave, do so whenever one of the following events occur:
- you belch loudly, causing a moment of silence to be observed around you
- navigation and walking control becomes difficult, possibly resulting in collisions with others
- you spill your drink on your running cash tab

- you immediately grab up the wet cash and try to suck out the absorbed liquor

the navigation rule is more otm than many of us would admit

Sometimes it’s ok to talk to the ugly one down the bar. They might have a friend.

the guy who posts to ilx about how irked he is at children being in the bar might have a friend too. but probably not

also might not be ugly (unlikely)

Tip well on the first, then moderately on subsequents. The aim is to strike the right balance between appearing to be generous and evidencing that you’re cheap enough to appreciate a buy back.

the miserable cunt landlord + his rude staff in my local wouldn't even get a steam off my piss tip off me. £4.60 for a pint of Stella, the place is full of unfriendly white-van yeomen arseholes and it's only 2 years since someone got murdered in the car park. The first time I went in there someone rudely shoulder barged past me because i wasn't a reg and the fool i was with sez: don't worry they were like me that with me for a few years as well.

Just out of interest calstars, how much do you pay for a pint in your bar?

$5 for the cheap stuff, $8 for everything else. Quite a jump. Occasionally there are happy surprises like seasonals that are out of season for half price.

that's just about as expensive as the some of godawful pubs here charge, although if you don't mind making a vile multi-millionaire richer it is much cheaper at Wetherspoons branches. Very much a no-tipping culture in the pubs here because we are such a socialist country.

Flashbacks to W4dd3ll sock puppets arguing with themselves in DNs above.

When ordering from a bar and sitting elsewhere, do so from out of arms-reach from others who are sitting at the bar. This reduces the opportunity for others to reach out and grab your tip.

This is not necessary if you never leave cash attended, which is the preferred practice.

Yeah I think in that situation I would either be running a tab (in which case I will tip upon settling up), handing over a card (in which case I will tip on the receipt) or handing over something like the right amount of cash (and suggesting that the change should be kept).

Not sure what barfly mechanics would entail my leaving cash within the reach of other patrons.

Further, if I'm ordering from the bar but not sitting at it, it's likely that the bar is so crowded that there IS no place out of arm's reach.

Sometimes you can’t help but be served by two bartenders. Sometimes there’s just no other option. In these cases you just have to roll with the punches and forgive however many lost buybacks you will miss.

if they care they close your tab when they're going off shift surely

Stupid Mexican beer in a pint glass with a lime slice on the lip drinking tip: rotate the lime a half turn every few draughts and sip from there

Or you could just squeeze the lime into the beer and leave it there

I had to completely refactor my mental calculus when drinking (or eating dinner) in Manhattan because the idea of separate checks or the wait staff splitting the check just does not compute. I mean, fair enough, I'm a traveler in a strange land, I must learn the ways. But it also explains why Venmo took off like crazy in NYC more than other places -- you're constantly having to send your friends cash because they got the tab!

so I guess I'd recommend paying per drink when sitting at the bar with a chum to make it easier, or carrying enough cash to just divvy up the bill. Or just buy the drinks and give the person you'll never see again a "you can get it next time!" wink

Keep in mind: mixed drinks don’t have a set alcohol content

When paying in small denominations, lay the cash out in separate piles for the drink and the tip

When finished with a can, crush it slightly to let the bartender know what’s up

If there are multiple bartenders and there is one you favorite, don’t be afraid to tell the others if you’re approached that you’re “good” with a wave of the hand. Then just be patient til you can order with your preferred.

One way to hit on a bartender is to say, “buy you a drink?”

An experienced server (one that’s probably worth your time) will tip cash face down. When you collect your change, leave the bills for the tip face up.

what is this nonsense

servers must fucking hate you

barfly best practice: run a tab, pay once, when you leave, tip 20-25%. fin.

does the alcohol go in the mouth or can it be drank another way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GCcoaSq3x4

I don't get this leaving cash out on the bar.

Yeah, if it's a tip, but keep it in your pocket otherwise.

Keep in mind — from a bartender’s perspective, there’s nothing more useless than a patron commenting on the music.

ugh, nice newer bar and this group came in and they all are sitting, not waiting in a line. and two are doing the “holding cash up to get service” move. ok, it’s a small space and they are servicing _your group_ from left to right. you are the only people this guy is serving. and the guy near me has money in hand and singles on the bar in front of him, in some passive aggressive “this is the tip” move. and when he is about to be served, he puts those singles back in his wallet

diiiiiiieeee

If the tables are wobbly, place your drink in the middle

If the drinks are wobbly, place your

came here to post the same video as brownie upthread

When paying with a card at a new place, provide the most exclusive plastic (or metal) that you can. This may lead to better service and customer prioritization in anticipation of a large tip.

rich people are bad tippers so this probably won't work

my wife got a 10% tip from one of the countries wealthiest real estate developers/art patrons

lol yeah

this thread makes going to the bar seem like going to the soup nazi

“When in groups of 5 or multiples of 7, make sure to all sit on the same side on the booth and throw 8 five dollars bills folded into airplanes towards the bartender every 24 1/2 minutes”

also know the code name for your drink. calling it by its real name is an insult

Bwahaha

Assuming the bartender is busy, lower your cost per hour at the bar by bringing a thermos or flask from home

PROTIP: Don't go to a bar during COVID

Sometimes a big tip is necessary to alert a new or unfamiliar bartender that you’re “worthy” of buybacks. So if there’s someone new behind the bar, be generous and look forward to the next time for reciprocation.

Just stand in one place and drink until you fall over

If it’s busy, and you score a good spot or table: to deter squatters, order doubles, and have a spare drink on the table at all times

how is that not a dick move

If it’s crowded, place your half empty drink in clear view of the bartender so that it’s clearly visible when they make their rounds. This allows them to quickly assess, together with a nod on your part, that you’re in need of another round.

half empty? we only drink half?

Drinking half is a dick move

Tip directly into the recipients hand / vision

You all stealin what’s not yours can gfy

When arriving at the bar and verbally greeting the bouncer or bartender, volume is more important than content

strolls into doorway, screams "FUCK UP CUNT!!!" across the room, returns to outdoor seating and waits for preferred beverages to be fetched.

When paying cash and breaking a large bill, if you have enough for a tip in small bills, give that to the bartender when he gives you your change. This precludes the never-graceful “let me give you a tip from the change” interaction

Don’t creep or hit on the staff

If you’re sitting outside and it’s windy and seats at the place are at a premium and you’re not finished with your round and you have a glass of water and a clean napkin at hand and you need to vacate your spot temporarily, dip a corner of the napkin into the water and drape it over the round, wet edge touching rim and facing the prevailing direction of the wind. This will decrease the chances your napkin will blow away while you’re elsewhere, thereby decreasing the chances a customer looking for a seat will assume yours is available vis a vis the “abandoned” round.

If you need to limit yourself, order the last round, provide your card, and ask the server to close you out

Most graceful way to close out?
My vote goes to asking for a glass of water or club when you do so to savor the moment a bit longer

Some bartenders will sooner give you a buyback if you pay with a card rather than cash; you will have to determine this via experience

Always have more cash on hand than necessary

When paying cash and breaking a large bill, if you have enough for a tip in small bills, give that to the bartender when he gives you your change. This precludes the never-graceful “let me give you a tip from the change” interaction

Fair

as a server for the time being, i completely agree -- just tell me how much you want back and i will bring it. don't make me do math!!

then again, if i am the most sober person (usually) and you cannot be trusted to do math bc u been drinking, i will do it

A safe assumption

Stack your cash tips in single file if the service doesn’t pick up after each round. A mess of singles could give the wrong impression.

Each time you visit a regular spot, alternate between paying cash and with a card. Eventually you will be able to earn a free drink — either via the bartender assuming you’re paying with a card, or via plausible deniability that you forgot which payment method you’re using.

If a bartender in a plausible but uncommon spot recognizes you (“how’ve you been?”) but you don’t recognize them, confess the truth

Casual mention of other bartenders at the same place may get you you buybacks earlier

If you’re looking for a buyback, delay payment on your deserving round (4th is best). Have the bartender serve you and if necessary, feign to fumble about for your wallet. This pause allows your server the appropriate time to reflect

On a hot day, the glass holding your cold beverage may be subject to condensation. Don’t forsake a coaster or a napkin in this scenario. You want that water soaked up during drink downtime — so that it doesn’t drip on your shirt so much when you sip

The other option is to drink your cold beverage so quickly that it doesn't have time to attract condensation, or to warm up.

If you’re already sitting down and halfway through, a discreet wipe of the bottom of your glass on your pants before sipping is acceptable

Finish right on time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKPcN9qbLZ0

At the cheapest bar around, order bottles or cans. Sometimes glasses get the short shrift.

Tip 5 at dives

This is obvious but if there’s big tip you want to give to a specific bartender give it to them by hand in cash “you’ve been served”

When you want a canned or bottled beer with a glass on the side, don’t order by saying “(Beer X)and a glass.” This can be misheard (“and” for “in”) and misinterpreted as a request for the draft version of Beer X, which is likely several sovereigns more. Better to preface with “bottle or can of,” and when it arrives, ask the bartender for a glass.

Don’t touch a cash tip unless there’s a 10 at the bottom of the stack

tip owners, when they’re tending, a fraction of what you’d tip servers

Stay one ahead of the hour, e.g., have two by 1 o’clock, and six by 5 o’clock.

Lol that’s the practice I’m trying to break myself of

Especially if you're using military time.

lol good point!

If you need to save your table while you pee and you don’t have a hat or bag to place on it, make sure you have at least 1/3 of your drink left in your glass.

Or just use a coaster from the bar lol

or a cocktail napkin

At this bar they have complementary promo stickers that are just big enough to cover the top of a drink. So I took two and put them in my wallet for later

I love bar stickers

Someone should make a google map list of bars with free promo stickers. That person could be me but I’m too much a creature of habit

last week i went to a bar for the first time in a *long* time and felt weird about leaving a dollar tip for a beer, considering that i was tipping that amount two decades ago. is a dollar still acceptable?

No

Ok. I ended up leaving two dollars, but was wondering what the norm is these days.

Bitcoin

No

Oops

a dollar is plenty

for a beer

Straddle the shift change and I say I’ve had 5 being honest and the new server says I it see one

Only

When you want to move a full glass of beer sitting on a coaster across the table, lift the beer and move the coaster independently first

Right before happy hour ends, buy as many as you’re going to have

yeah but they'll go warm

Eh, unpopular opinion but people are too fussed about coldness imo. If you need your drink to be cold, then drink faster. Don't own a beverage long enough for it to get warm. Or practice radical acceptance that entropy is law, and you can't always get what you want.

The whole industry of keeping drinks at or below a particular temperature (ice, "koozies," coolers, etc.) is an edifice built on futility: "pay us," says Big Ice, "to _slightly_ delay the inevitable for a fleeting moment."

Don't get me started on what ice melting in a mixed drink over time does to its ratios. "Here," says Big Ice, "I am here to steadily make your bourbon more and more watery until it is as pale and weak as your scrawny pathetic ass."

To each drink, the coolth thereof

my grandfather taught me the most important life lesson--that soda straight out of the fountain is cold already so you don't need ice. just get more of the good stuff.

I remember being on summer tour in the UK in the early 00s and being absolutely stunned by warm beer in the backstage, like no ice at all, gimme a break

IME all of the people asking for more ice are women, typically over 40 (over 50 more typically). i do not begrudge them their ice because they clearly have their reasons.

we actually banned a regular recently because he popped off at a bartender, claimed he deserved special treatment bc he comes in 6x/week but failed to note that he usually sits at the bar for 3-4 hours and drinks 2 beers. good riddance!

Eh, unpopular opinion but people are too fussed about coldness imo. If you need your drink to be cold, then drink faster. Don't own a beverage long enough for it to get warm. Or practice radical acceptance that entropy is law, and you can't always get what you want.

The whole industry of keeping drinks at or below a particular temperature (ice, "koozies," coolers, etc.) is an edifice built on futility: "pay us," says Big Ice, "to _slightly_ delay the inevitable for a fleeting moment."

Don't get me started on what ice melting in a mixed drink over time does to its ratios. "Here," says Big Ice, "I am here to steadily make your bourbon more and more watery until it is as pale and weak as your scrawny pathetic ass."

To each drink, the coolth thereof

― zydecodependent (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, May 15, 2025 6:47 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is all true, but if you're someone whose ideal drink is just-on-the-edge-of-freezing cold pilsner, basically the only way to get this is to be at home, toss a can/bottle into the freezer for 20-30 minutes (or whatever sweet spot you find), and not opening until you're ready for your first sip. IANARestauranteur but I assume most beer at bars/restaurants are kept at around 37-39º at max, which is nice and cold ... for about 10 minutes. I assume holding beer closer to freezing for prolonged periods is enough to damage the beer. No huge deal because there are tons of better-tasting pilsners on draft at bars than anything I'd be drinking from cans/bottles at home, but it's only going to really be enjoyable while it's still cold.

I have no idea how cold the freezer beers get by the time they're opened, but I assume it dips to around 30º-32º (for me, I know the temp is perfect if I pour and there's almost zero foam; any colder and it begins to slush, which means it'll probably get tossed). So, your beer is screamingly cold to begin with, and it stays "cold enough" for about 2X as long as my beer at the bar. I have a Radeberger tallboy with dinner most nights, and by the time the beer starts getting lukewarm I've either finished my beer or I'm done drinking.

This probably only makes sense for the lightest beers on the spectrum w/o a ton of flavor. The thought of gulping down an ice-cold double IPA makes me wretch.

That is a very niche craving, CompuPost, best to you

On a hot day, a cheap cold can straight from a cooler full of ice behind the bar is a distinct pleasure. Just don’t ask for a glass to drink it from cause that’ll warm up the swill right quick

“This one’s on me” can be a gentle invitation to break the ice a bit more

If it’s busy, and you’ve got a coveted table, and you’re drinking a bottle or can, and you need to get a refill or relieve yourself — before you leave your spot, position the label of the drink toward where people tend to congregate to assess table options

Huh, I’d just have the friend I’m with watch it.

I was the last man at the bar to do the chair tilt/put your beer at the edge of the bar reservation recently. Lost art

What is going on in here???

Echo

did calstars just quasi-accidentally post his entire barfly notes app biographical free verse into the beginning of another typical “how to compensate bar staff” tip

Mod Please delete this shit

go to AA, dude. it's OK.

Yeah in all seriousness you need help, dude

what sleeve & boring md said. we are all in your corner but you gotta get help.

Worst Arab Strap song ever

Why is divorce out of the question? Because of the kids? Do you think the kids would be better off if you stay in a loveless marriage ?

it's (seriously) nice that people are expressing concern for calstars . . . but also fuck him, he sucks

there are plenty of ilx0rs who drink too much and somehow aren't relentless assholes for years on end

please try to find some help calstars. i am rooting for you.

^^

what does that label trick do?

Mod Please delete this shit

Mod why were an indeterminate number of posts on an indeterminate subject deleted almost immediately on the in-thread say-so of someone who has been relentlessly, serially, consistently and contemptuously abusive of his fellow posters and their myriad interests for years now? Zero action has been proactively taken to curtail this poster’s attacks on the community across the two years or so he’s waged a campaign of weekly+ sniping — which, fair enough if a decision was made to honour his deliberately evasive tactic of threadbombing and wait for him to get sloppy enough to cop SBs …but that’s inconsistent with PROMPTLY catering to the one time he’s (apparently?) noticed other human beings and made a similarly drive-by request for protection.

It’s anti-community practice to delete or edit posts without an acknowledgment, if they disrupt the ability to follow whether anything has even happened. Sometimes this is inconsequential; sometimes it’s funny in context; sometimes it’s for the best, though rarely would a (post deleted) or (edited on date) replacement not be appropriate. This feels like supporting an abuser at the expense of everyone they’ve lashed out at, targeted, or condemned en masse.

Understood that this was probably an individual’s split-second decision made out of generalised respect or human empathy: just flagging that the context makes it feel wildly, upsettingly unfair, as a principle to consider.

We should all be grateful that a mod made an empathetic decision, as you say, your other points are also incredibly otm. Does calstars still have 77 access after trolling some of people’s most vulnerable moments they’ve shared? Did we ever get a good answer as to why his activity is tolerated? As Mookieproof says, we have other posters with drinking problems. None of them are this bad. I also find the sympathy offered to him bewildering considering that this has been a pattern for a very long time. But perhaps being raised by an alcoholic whose moods, whims and temper dictated the temperature of a lot of my formative years makes me less sympathetic, who can say?

But perhaps being raised by an alcoholic whose moods, whims and temper dictated the temperature of a lot of my formative years makes me less sympathetic, who can say?

It definitely makes me less sympathetic!

Does calstars still have 77 access after trolling some of people’s most vulnerable moments they’ve shared?

No.

i had a direct say on calstars last week and im not here to pile on, maybe he is still confused by reactions to his posts and maybe not

is this the right place to ask if a request to delete posts we regret is now a standard, though? because it used not to be, explicitly so.

i get that the site and modding the site is now quite different tho.

you can ask anything anywhere, but it’s unlikely it’ll get addressed unless it’s in the right place

much like being at the bar, imo. amazing what people will say and do there

I disagree with deleting the post. Minimally because now it looks like I came here to say “what’s up party people?” Which I did not. I also think people should be accountable for their posting. It’s one of the reasons I stay here!

I agree with deleting the post as an empathetic gesture, I read the post in full and it was not the kind of thing that seemed to have been posted in a good mental state. I appreciated the mod discretion.

I don’t appreciate that Steve Shasta seems not to be a mod of the baseball forum anymore, in part because I guess it was wrong of him (?) to exercise some discretion to tempban calstars from the board there because it turns out it’s actually not that fun having a drunk troll and shit the place up for months on end, which most regulars were in favour of iirc? That I have a problem with.

Also prob good to have it gone cause it contained multiple potentially identifying details about real ppl in with all the sad stuff (and the usual creepo shit about women obv)

That’s fine in general though, just some local colour for the site.

The thing is, he posted that. He did it. By undoing it, it blurs the line of what is and isn’t deleteable. People have posted all sorts of stuff they regret — do we go delete all that too? Can it be retroactive? I fall on the side of you hit submit, that’s it.

I also tend to hold fast to rules at the bar/in the workplace bc I feel like they actually protect us from having to decide who does and doesn’t get special treatment.

The post appeared to have been mistakenly c&p-ed and, as pointed out, contained personal information... this wasn't just a "said something stupid that I now regret" situation.

maybe he should start a thread for NOT best practises

again, there is a special exception being made based on xyz circumstances. it was posted. redact the personal info if you must but the post should remain imo. reading into intentions makes the ground shift in ways that make me, personally, uncomfortable. i am allowed to feel that way.

agree with LL, mods should have just redacted names and left the rest

it's (seriously) nice that people are expressing concern for calstars . . . but also fuck him, he sucks

I also find the sympathy offered to him bewildering

same, i don't really care and i feel bad for this guy, but i really don't like being included in some general "we are all rooting for you" shit

I don't fucking care and I don't feel bad for the guy. Also not buying the confusion on how his posts are landing with other ppl.

No we all know the who-me act is fake as hell it’s absurd to pretend otherwise

That's where I'm like just fuck this turd.

i don’t like his posts and he has personally attacked me. i still hope the best for him because he is clearly in deep psychic pain, though we shouldn’t bear the brunt of that— nor should anyone else. i want him to get better, but in the meantime, i’d also like him to fuck off from this site.

i agree with LL re the post, tho.

I don’t appreciate that Steve Shasta seems not to be a mod of the baseball forum anymore, in part because I guess it was wrong of him (?) to exercise some discretion to tempban calstars from the board there because it turns out it’s actually not that fun having a drunk troll and shit the place up for months on end, which most regulars were in favour of iirc?

I can't really figure this sentence out except as an assumption of bad-faith dealings on the part of moderators, which isn't the case. Shasta is still an ILB mod. I believe when I unbanned calstars from his sitewide one-week ban on 3 September, that undid SS's ILB board-ban, which I'd be fine with him reinstating.

I'm comfortable with having deleted the post. I believe there's precedent for deleting stupid shit that's caught right after having been posted, and that trying to go back in time to scrub one's internet reputation is the big no-no. I have to go do a full day of errands so I won't see this thread or site for the next few hours.

Sorry, I was basing that on what Steve Shasta said in the baseball forum moderator thread, sounds like he was mistaken and therefore I am in turn, I retract that comment and apologise.

appreciate the info and personally not against the option to delete immediate regret posts

gently suggest it would be better to replace the content of the post with “post deleted” or something, rather than delete the whole post

[controversial mod edit]

i don’t like his posts and he has personally attacked me. i still hope the best for him because he is clearly in deep psychic pain, though we shouldn’t bear the brunt of that— nor should anyone else. i want him to get better, but in the meantime, i’d also like him to fuck off from this site.

i agree with LL re the post, tho.

Seconded. Also the dude has a family he is obviously also making miserable, which they don’t deserve.

Bukowski could be a total arsehole at times, but at least he could also type out some cracking expansive prose about human vulnerability and the brutality and unfairness of working-class life, this lad doesn't really try anything like that. He's kind of a smug bore barfly.

Barfly is so much better read as an adverb

I always misread it as “barfy” … I always thought that this was just the calstars drunkposting thread … fwiw

farting and vomiting best practises

Can a mod delete this post from my brain? I agree that immediate whoopsies are more legitimately deleteable. I still found it and looked at it. I wish it could be scrubbed from my brain even though I know that’s not possible.

I feel you LL

sorry LL but I'm crude trash and can't help myself sometimes!

Leaving it up puts it in more ppl’s brains is one consideration

Like I get the principle but we are not wanting for evidence of this dude’s shittiness, mod action fine here imo

there are plenty of ilx0rs who drink too much and somehow

mookie otm: having had two manhattans after a glass of wine with dinner in the hours before opening zing bcz a cat got on me, I apologise for not editing the redundancy of “relentlessly, serially” before submitting post.

Sic are you confessing to actually drinking or just being fully sarcastic again? I thought you were an ice water cures everything person

One of the manhattans was barrel-aged in my hall closet. I also laughed out loud at B,M’s September 5th post while having one beer alone on a patio before a movie, and have drunk in licensed establishments with at least five ppl who’ve posted itt this morning.

I stand corrected!

this morning or this morning

That got me too for a sec, I was like wow ilxors partying

I had a beer with sic and we talked about the hummingbirds iirc

It was 2016

Iirc?

btw I know some ppl have a gift for obliviousness to bad behaviour so a bit of context for why some of us might seem callous to the upsetting content of that disappeared post, ilxor chinaski (appropriately!) laid it out well in response to calstars' fake perplexity in the time & gifts thread:

Calstars, we've never interacted but dude, I'm going to take your bafflement with good faith and say that you have a habit of wandering into threads when you're drunk and saying stuff that is either off-topically jarring or straight-up offensive. I don't pay too much attention to be 100% sure, but you never seem to acknowledge it or atone for it. It's historical and cumulative, which explains why the reaction seems outsized to you and why there aren't a slew of supportive posts when you reach out for them.

Feel free to ignore this if it sounds condescending.

Calz, you continue to amaze me and you did an awesome thing; I hope you guys are OK.

― I would prefer not to. (Chinaski), Saturday, September 6, 2025 2:03 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

But as gyac said it's not exactly random, it's often when ppl are posting very personal shit. He did this on the ilx slack too: he only ever popped up every couple of months to do his tedious misogynist "I'm at a bar creeping on young girls" routine so beloved of these boards, but he only ever did it when someone was in the middle of opening up about something serious. It's clearly deliberate and out of sheer deep nastiness. One of these times btw is what prompted gyac to make the fairly innocuous comment "I promise you nobody cares" which he has been publicly obsessing over for half a decade in a very unhealthy way - and to be absolutely clear here, I am not saying "take care of yourself man" unhealthy, I'm saying watchlist unhealthy.

Like... Graham Linehan is clearly unhappy and unwell but it turns out there's no law that I have to care. I need my friends to feel safe; this little shit can get better or rot, somewhere else.

As a mod (? well seems I no longer have certain mod functions apparently, but yeah let's save that for another thread), I had to thread-police and board-police said poster for his shitty drunken posts.

And then instead of apologizing, he came at me.

Time outs are good for the soul, reflection, meditation, etc.

I also laughed out loud at B,M’s September 5th post

Thank you, I was aiming for subtlety (unlike normally)

As a mod (? well seems I no longer have certain mod functions apparently, but yeah let's save that for another thread), I had to thread-police and board-police said poster for his shitty drunken posts.

OK, any change in your ILB mod powers is news to me. I'll re-ban calstars from that board because it was righteous.

i am genuinely curious though, is it pretty firm moderation policy at this point to let fp do its thing? or are mods open to preemptively doing a permaban for this particular poster at this point? i agree with posters here saying that his presence is pretty clearly nasty, toxic and yes abusive and has been for a long time. i've never ever seen any self reflection or any hint of an apology on his part. narcissist playbook stuff. i think it's pretty cut and dry and honestly overdue. and not like this would mitigate any of the former but i also don't see him adding anything to ilm discussions when he pops in now and again to say how awesome a bruce springsteen lyric is or whatever. just adding my voice to the rest who would like to be done with him. thoughts?

I think in this particular case I am supportive of a permanent ban. His presence here does no one any good.

i am genuinely curious though, is it pretty firm moderation policy at this point to let fp do its thing?
Speaking strictly for myself: pretty firm, but not carved in granite.

or are mods open to preemptively doing a permaban for this particular poster at this point?
It's on the table for discussion and I'm leaning in that direction. Getting a wide range of moderator input is a slow process though; I keep a fairly close eye on the site every day, but don't know if any other mods do. It's not a decision that has a deadline attached to it, and the poster in question is quiet for the moment.

Whatever the outcome you’re doing a great job Wm

agreed

yes thanks WmC

yes, thank you!

bouncing into a thread where someone's posted something personal, especially if it's something they're bothered by, and then replying with flippant or insulting reads to me as:
1. being uncomfortable with someone else sharing something personal
2. not dealing with any of your own shit and you feel uncomfortable when other people are trying to do so by sharing their struggles

I think over the course of all of these posts, I've chuckled at one, maybe two, and felt kind of bad about it. I think it's human to hear someone's complaints and think "wow, that little thing?" but consistently doing that, and verbally/written is just being an asshole

I think that flippant/insulting response is one that quite a few ilxors are guilty of tbh. Generally those are confined to responses to other posters they dislike/have a grievance with, and said flippant/insulting posters are more generous and supportive of those they like, or at least don’t loathe. I know, considering my long history here, that I am not innocent of this.

I personally don’t have a problem with cstars, but I defer to those who more regularly interact with him.

i think it's fine to delete the posts from last night . . . as long as he is permanently banned

LL is right; he said that shit, and if we erase that (for his sake?) he should have no further posting privileges

I think if he gets help with his problems he should be able to come back. … Like to me it seems that the offensive behavior is related to that. But again, if he’s posted some seriously heinous shit I don’t know about… idk. Maybe he gets permabanned, takes time off, gets his shit sorted, comes back under a different user name and is chill … like a few previous posters in ilx history.

he adds nothing, and never has

'if he gets help with his problems' and wants to come back let him use a vpn to once again grace us with his assholery

"I think if he gets help with his problems he should be able to come back"

Like a 'here is what I did on my ilx ban' lol.

That post my last more than a sentence, which is possibly the proof we need that a complete transformation has taken place!

very few totally spotless ilxors across the range of possible problematic or detrimental board behaviours (not all of which are necessarily in the area of being mean or nasty)

im in least spotless bracket in terms of what's left and have not copped even a threadban or yellow card in a decade (even when i richly deserved it)

so theres something to what sarahell says here but it boils down to two things afaict

- "its a popularity contest and that's wrong"

what part of being unpopular with the vast majority of an online community merits a defence, exactly?

and, probably (definitely) feeding into the above:

- what others have said about there being practically no counterweight in terms of contribution or comment or any discernible persona offered back to the community* other than what seems a quite deliberate shittiness or expressions of views that run contra to what most of us might see as consistently shared values**

* sometimes being snarky and mean and rotten gains you this and sorry but you dont have to like that but yknow it is what it is

** if not the values being shared as such then the sincerity of them being held and discussed in whatever tone and to whatever level of ferocity throughout the years

all that said, i dont know about a permaban here, i just think also i wouldnt be fussed about a permaban whereas with just about any other poster id kinda be like ah lads really? so thats to the 'counterweight' point i guess

After a lot of thought and moderator consultation, calstars is permabanned. I hope there won't be too much need to perform "slagging off of the departed."

is that a forever-ban?

yes

ty for update and may god forgive our mods for what we ask of them in our name

xp yeah, none of that from me. it's honestly really fuckin sad. i have good will toward him. he just kept doing it for years you know? and will keep doing it. people called him out, some very gently, but no budging. i very seriously hope he gets to a better place. i do feel like if there's a real change involving taking responsibility and apologizing and all that and he wants back that could be an option. but i don't see it happening. just my 2 cents. anyway thanks mods and wmc. i love this place and everyone who posts here. it felt like a group decision. the best for everyone i think.

sometimes a barfly's best practice is to move along to another bar. (until they get sober ofc.)

Map otm

I hadn't quite understood the full scope of the behaviour, so yeah, I think it's a totally fair call. It's interesting to consider what responsibilities a community like this has to carry or contain this kind of thing, particularly when there are threads where people are prepared to make themselves vulnerable and clearly receive warmth and friendship in response. When the behaviour is so glaring and has gone on for so long with no sign of acknowledgement or contrition, it seems like fair dos.

And thanks to the mods for the work they do in making this place what it is.

One of the least flattering traits I bring here is hypervigilance/paranoia — part of what informs my position on not deleting the post is my experience with trying to rewire myself to be less so, don’t feel compelled to screenshot everything etc. And when the post remains, I don’t need to cover my bases. All that weighs on a person and I’d rather not give it any more of my energy.
I’m fine with the ban and only wish the evidence was crystal clear for the banning/not deleted. I have no animus about any of it and am grateful to have mods who listen.

Ohhhh god I think I’m user-blind or something. Until just a moment ago I thought calstars and calzino were the same poster and I’m reading this thinking “why is everybody getting mad at calzino? He’s a great poster”.

I think I once read a calstars post and thought “wow jeez calzino must be having a bad day”

Who among us hasn't confused them

I have never fwiw but I used to be an angry mod

haha when calzino is cranky it always makes me smile, he tells it like it is

a "real one" as they say

Being me I briefly thought they were the same person with two accounts — one for seeming normal and one for being an unpleasant barfly

That's the Keyser Soze play - in the end we are _all_ calstars

Insofar as barfly practice is concerned, I had two pints at my local and toward the end of the second I told a man down the bar to stop loudly saying the r-word, that it really sucked to be hearing it said loudly in a bar, and he claimed he was autistic, and had a right to it, and I told him he didn’t, and to stop, and then we shared a cigarette and he said some funny and stupid things and it was all ok.

Then he went inside to use the toilet and his friends started saying that they couldn’t take him anywhere, that just earlier than day he was saying the T-word in a coffee shop and I stubbed my cigarette out and put it in the garbage and said “well, goodnight” before the barfly could return

The word I have to practice the most conscientiousness about avoiding is “savage”, which is a word I like for its onomatopoeic quality, its versatility, and its mouthfeel. Some seven years ago an Indigenous friend expressed to me that certain in his community (incl. hisself) wanted that word restricted. No sweat, I said. I don’t use it except when talking about the word itself, or my second-favourite Eurythmics album

Don’t really understand why people don’t like to be told what words they can or cannot say. It’s fun, isn’t it? “Let’s find new words instead”

Good job buddy, you did the right thing.

god this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0PD6f6PpIk

I also appreciate being educated about new words to use. It took me a minute to realize I was an asshole for using certain terms but once I got a handle on my privilege and generational proclivities I’ve become Mr Inclusive Language Person at work, a role that somebody’s gotta do

Where I become language-cranky is around “I appreciate you”, what a fucking creepily passive-aggressive thing to say, oh I’m appreciated? like a painting or a vista lookout? It feels like a misuse of the word and a deliberate watering down of something more familiar, so “keeping you at arm’s length”. I don’t want to be appreciated I want to be loved gdi

Lol the first time I remember being struck by the use of “appreciate you” was when I was directing a team of McKinsey consultants we had hired to burn a bunch of leftover money

the project lead would regularly respond to my email directives with “thanks Tom, appreciate you!”

Where I become language-cranky is around “I appreciate you”, what a fucking creepily passive-aggressive thing to say, oh I’m appreciated

cultivate a praise kink and you will feel different about this

Nah I get it. "I appreciate you" is like your art being awarded 6/10 by someone you hardly know

I just googled it. To my ears and eyes “I appreciate you” smacks of something devised with the intention of diluting over-familiarity or specificity in appreciative gestures— a by-product of a committee meeting attempting to make expressions of appreciation “safer” or something, which in turn, to my eyes and ears, makes the appreciation feel contrived.

But a Google posits that it’s a Southern expression that was popularized by Ted Lasso. It definitely has a completely different connotation when I consider “I appreciate you” coming from a Southerner, in that context it feels charming and genuine. Hmm.

I've been using this for 20-30 years, and I apologize for it.

what’s wrong with being appreciated

It's ubiquitous in the south, I don't use it but I don't mind hearing it. Nothing to apologize for.

[

The word I have to practice the most conscientiousness about avoiding is “savage”, which is a word I like for its onomatopoeic quality, its versatility, and its mouthfeel. Some seven years ago an Indigenous friend expressed to me that certain in his community (incl. hisself) wanted that word restricted. No sweat, I said. I don’t use it except when talking about the word itself, or my second-favourite Eurythmics album

Don’t really understand why people don’t like to be told what words they can or cannot say. It’s fun, isn’t it? “Let’s find new words instead”

Man I feel like John McWhorter saying that I think using this word is totally fine unless using it in the very specific context of insult.

"savage" is the highest form of sincere praise something in my culture and we aren't changing it im afraid

that it has become similar in certain social groups in the US, too, shows the wideness and versatility of its use.

It's a pretty versatile word in jocular use, "savage" as a verb to mean "ravage", or as adjective that is adjacent to "sick" (complimentary), or as an exclamation ("savages!") resembling "philistines!" to describe a group of people with whom you disagree on an aesthetic level. I just don't use it any more. Most of my Indigenous friends wouldn't care and aren't even aware that certain other Indigenous people object to it, but, you know, one objector is enough for me. Like "dyke", I've just retired it from my vocabulary entirely because one or two lesbians who doesn't like me saying it is enough for me to stop saying it in any context.

Where I become language-cranky is around “I appreciate you”, what a fucking creepily passive-aggressive thing to say, oh I’m appreciated? like a painting or a vista lookout? It feels like a misuse of the word and a deliberate watering down of something more familiar, so “keeping you at arm’s length”. I don’t want to be appreciated I want to be loved gdi

― Stalin was a huge stoner and that’s why Communism (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, September 14, 2025 11:50 AM (five hours ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CchB1SDJ2-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb1ZvUDvLDY

re: "i appreciate you"
maybe inappropriate anecdote about inpatient psychiatric staff:
they prefer to take vitals twice daily and blood draws once every seven days. you can opt out. they prefer you not to. my roommate systematically refused and you don't know the true passive aggressive intimidation of the phrase "i appreciate you" until the tattoo covered 300lb 6 foot male nurse slightly flexes his scrubs tighter as he responds with it and puts the blood pressure monitor back on the cart.

hoping the best for calstars. i have not had a drink of alcohol in so long that i can't remember when the last one was. it was hard to stop. i knew i was being insufferable. i liked myself even less than i do now. i know this isn't really the thread for this, but i don't want anyone who i've met here to go through anything similar, even if they aren't the most exemplary people. agreed that timeouts are brilliant.

also ll otm "you hit submit, that's it!" alltime mantra!

❤️ I appreciate that

I actually like when people say they appreciate me. I don’t want anyone to love me for bringing their food but an appreciation is nice.

no, honestly! i wasn't gonna say anything but the discussion around when to delete/self-censor is relevant to my interests and you have some good points. so thank you!

and finally cosigning the round of thank yous for mods. thank you for reading, i will most likely never post in this thread again.👍🏻

It's a pretty versatile word in jocular use, "savage" as a verb to mean "ravage", or as adjective that is adjacent to "sick" (complimentary), or as an exclamation ("savages!") resembling "philistines!" to describe a group of people with whom you disagree on an aesthetic level. I just don't use it any more. Most of my Indigenous friends wouldn't care and aren't even aware that certain other Indigenous people object to it, but, you know, one objector is enough for me. Like "dyke", I've just retired it from my vocabulary entirely because one or two lesbians who doesn't like me saying it is enough for me to stop saying it in any context.

yeah i guess we just have different ways of dealing with this.