Sanpaku is worried that if he compliments a co-worker on their hair, clothes etc, that some might take it as flirtation or indeed harassment and he could lose his job. Let's fix this, ILX! we can do it!
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:31 (seven years ago)
what may help is that I've never heard of the above scenario actually happening? it may be more of a.... PHANTOM MENACE
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:47 (seven years ago)
"I'm just going off to read A Vindication of the Rights of Woman and really don't approve of that Weinstein fellow, and your knockers look smashing in that dress, love"
― calzino, Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:58 (seven years ago)
That's a spectacularly passive aggressive and mean spirited thread title and OP imo
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:59 (seven years ago)
otm
― pee-wee and the power men (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:00 (seven years ago)
whaaa sorry i was trying to be playful not mean
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:00 (seven years ago)
fine i'll ask for deletion
And given yr sterling history I'd give you a lot of benefit of doubt but idk man read it again
Agreed that thread was needed and all and we can work through this rocky start
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:02 (seven years ago)
"how to make friends and influence ppl (without being a creep)" or something like that?
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:04 (seven years ago)
Trying to recall if I've ever complimented anybody's appearance at work unsolicited and now I'm worrying I'm some kind of inhuman uncomplimentary monster.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:05 (seven years ago)
yes the two posts together are naglsorry
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:07 (seven years ago)
― pee-wee and the power men (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:12 (seven years ago)
i really struggle to take a compliment too, especially when it's a blatant untruth
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:18 (seven years ago)
k i've just been and checked, my hair's maybe the least ravaged bit of me so fair enough
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:19 (seven years ago)
yr welcome
― pee-wee and the power men (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:25 (seven years ago)
It's very good imoIt's literally like a wave or "vague" on ur noodle, was that the intention
― very stabbable gaius (wins), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:26 (seven years ago)
anyway, before i take my imminent meltdown to my own meltdown thread i gotta say i do understand Sanpaku's wish for the unspoken rules of social interaction tobe made more explicit but i think to some extent this is already happening and it's a long-term evolutionary process within different societies. the desire to apply coding logic to social interaction seems unrealistic at best, and although i'm absolutely sure that he was being sincere in what he said it might be seen by some people as the kind of "tell me what i did wrong?" tactic that actually abusive men have been using to try and obfuscate their own actions, even tho i'm sure in their heart of hearts most of those people know that they've done wrong. i'm absolutely not accusing Sanpaku of this, but i think that's how his posts could be construed and why people have responded badly to them.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:27 (seven years ago)
ftr I think sanpakus insistence that there be a hard line or set of rules is lamentable (I mean that in a sympathetic sense) and if the realisation isn't in each and every man out there by now that you're not going to get that, you've to do the hard (in fact the soft) work yourself in every interaction and for every person you are dealing with then that's on you.
That's the bedrock imo. And from the other thread and the posts in it going back since this started to break, the #1 if you need a list is that your motive matters- whether it's obvious to the other person or not. Start internally and work outwards and if all you are generally trying to do in your day is spread joy and happiness without ulterior designs on those you come into contact with then the odds of your doing harm (and coming across as a creep) are less than any other approach you take.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 12:56 (seven years ago)
Any time women complement my outfits I think it’s great and am happy for the rest of the day, even if I’m not attracted to them.
If someone has new glasses, a new haircut or some bold accessory I’ll usually tell them it looks nice.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:00 (seven years ago)
If I get fired for living my life in this brave and bold way so be it.
wow
Dude
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:01 (seven years ago)
I kinda feel like I'm breaking character here but cmon man
^otm (xp)& like contra the panic that started this thread I think if you start out with those best intentions pretty much the worst-case scenario is you pay a compliment, are told that it isn't appropriate, and you apologise - I think if you really are erring in the side of not being a creep you don't have to worry that they're coming for you. It's funny that the, uh let's just say concern-posting in the Weinstein thread takes the franken and bush egs as the slippery slope - for the record I would definitely advise that you do not do anything like what those guys did in your workplace
― very stabbable gaius (wins), Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:06 (seven years ago)
To be clear I'm otming the longer dmac post
― very stabbable gaius (wins), Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:07 (seven years ago)
Innocuous complements aside, the bigger question is, has anyone actually gotten in trouble for asking a coworker (not a subordinate) out on a date? That shows clear “intent” but can be done respectfully, especially if you don’t freak out if you get turned down. It seems that the cases we hear about in the news are neither innocuous complements nor benign first moves but lecherous advanced.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:14 (seven years ago)
*advances
Some workplaces have a no dating policy, I guess, but not because it’s considered harassment. I guess I am skeptical about whether the definition of harassment has really expanded enough in practice to get people in trouble who don’t have the intent of putting women in uncomfortable positions.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:16 (seven years ago)
(this is probably a multiple x-post)
i agree that intentions matter, but of course don't fully determine how you'll actually come across. human communication is way too complicated and context-laden to provide any guarantees that intention will always match reception.
i'd go a step further and add that the notion of 'ulterior motive' is itself complicated. it seems like the easy call is when the ulterior motive is quite clearly to end up having sex; or on the flip side, when the motive is an altruistic/platonic one (the 'brighten someone's day' impulse, maybe). things get more complicated and muddied in between, in several different ways.
so for example, the ulterior motive behind a lot of flirting doesn't equate to "let's spend the night together" because it's my sense that a lot of flirting occurs between people who know they'll never actually spend the night together (e.g., already have a partner), but who just enjoy sending each other these signals that "hey i think you're interesting & attractive in a kinda sexy way".
also, compliments are not either purely platonic or purely sexual in origin. I've found that I can be attracted to someone as a friend, initially in a non-romantic, non-sexual way, but that attraction became more sexually-tinged over time. Sometimes it feels like it happens overnight (literally, through a dream), and sometimes it happens gradually, almost imperceptibly, so that the compliment I give today feels, as soon as I've said it, quite different from the one I gave three months ago... and I'm surprised by this.
so it's complicated, and the stories post-Weinstein raise the stakes on one's ability to navigate these complications, but i must say: i don't share some guys' sense that, "oh no, everything's changed now... NOW how am I supposed to talk to women without risking X, Y or Z". like, yeah, these stories highlight why you should step more lightly, but speaking only for myself now...i feel like throughout my life i've been aware (and scared of) the possibility of creeping women out. i've tended to err on the side of waiting for a green light from the other, before initiating anything that could be construed as anything like a pass, not necessarily because i'm a paragon of virtue, but more because i've feared rejection (and ruined friendships).
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 13:57 (seven years ago)
totally.
i think the actual fear people have is not they will actually creep someone out -- you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals -- but that some mean spirited person will twist around their words in order to hurt them. bad things could always happen but as far as fears go i don't think this one is all that likely.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:04 (seven years ago)
or, on the flipside, they'll encounter someone who is just confused by this whole recent discourse and will sincerely misinterpret they're friendly comment as harassment, not because they actually are creeped out, but because they have some muddled ideas about what the rules are. i don't think this is likely either.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:06 (seven years ago)
your hair looks great today btw
"Have you had a haircut" is about as far as I've ventured. Actually I said that recently to a woman I work with and she said, "That was weeks ago and you've only just noticed! Tchoh!"
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:09 (seven years ago)
Also this has happened to me at work too recently, on a couple of occasions.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:12 (seven years ago)
i don't compliment people on their physical appearance. if someone is wearing a pair of cute boots or whatever, i don't feel it's my place as a biological male to point that out - men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things. exception is haircuts. haircuts are fair game.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:33 (seven years ago)
no way i am all about fashion
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:35 (seven years ago)
i mean, not "all about," but i am interested enough in it that i'll notice when someone is rocking a good look.
i don't think about stuff in terms of "my place as a biological male." i've always had a lot of female friends -- more, actually, than male friends. ("a lot" is relative, of course, i'm not hyper social.)
but yeah, idk. it might come as a surprise to ordinary readers of ilx but i'm not really one of these gruff, masculine, can't-tell-black-from-navy type of dudes.
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:39 (seven years ago)
"men aren't _supposed_ to notice such things."
idk what "supposed" is doing here but it's a bad sentiment and accession to it is drawing the line in the wrong place
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:49 (seven years ago)
i remarked to my (male) boss the other day that he'd had a haircut and he paused, looked at me, and said "yeah. i get one every so often." awkward
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:50 (seven years ago)
you should have said; it's took ten years of you, pal. You only look 90 now.
― calzino, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:51 (seven years ago)
Haircut chat is unisex, "Are you trying to grow a beard" isn't.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:51 (seven years ago)
once someone asked me how many plaid shirts i had
i said, "a lot."
― treeship 2, Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:54 (seven years ago)
once I wore a plaid shirtand it was a gassoon turned outto be a pain in the ass
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:57 (seven years ago)
I've never had a compliment of (or simple acknowledgement of) a haircut or a jumper or shoes or w/e rebound on me tbh but I don't throw them out to just anyone neither.
I think the Irish office environment, although not without its left/sj scene and crew, is to my experience reasonably relaxed on these things though. NB I'm old NB I'm a civil servant.
Being single and fancying someone at work I've no idea how badly I'd handle things if I'm completely honest.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 14:59 (seven years ago)
frankly i find it hard enough turning up and concentrating on my job without throwing other stuff into the mix. altho otoh i am friends with a bunch of people at work and our area is mostly women and we do social things sometimes like coffee/movies/walks/piss-ups but sometimes when we're doing stuff like that people will still say "i just come to work to work" and it's still sort of true even tho are doing something else, think we're just generally chill and friendly people.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:26 (seven years ago)
the clothes compliment thing is partly about how, through tone and expression, you pitch the compliment. scenario A: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "i...really....like... how those boots look on you..." (*checking out legs up and down*). VERDICT: HARASSMENT. scenario B: female co-worker walks in wearing "cute" new boots. dude goes: "whoa, those boots rock!." VERDICT: STYLE-SOLIDARITY AT BEST, DOUCHEY "COOLSPEAK" AT WORST.
it's not that pat and dry, but it's not complete terra incognita either.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:32 (seven years ago)
I mean the female is almost an unnecessary modifier there
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:47 (seven years ago)
years ago a male coworker complimented my haircut, and followed it up by saying “i used to be overweight and i know that people paying me compliments on how i looked when i made an effort always made me feel good” he’s a very sweet guy and his intentions were pure of heart but boy that explanation really took the wind out of my sails
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:50 (seven years ago)
― remember the lmao (darraghmac)
the "supposed" is that i've always gathered that there's a certain expectation (frequently justified) of male cluelessness. when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:58 (seven years ago)
wow. that one is something else. xpost
― assawoman bay (harbl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:59 (seven years ago)
This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack. I used to work with someone who would do this multiple times a day, just saying things like "lunchtime, eh?" while looking at you expectantly.
Re: the original question, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a simple compliment without coming across as a creep. "Cool hair by the way" in front of a group of other people is one thing, "I like your hair" while staring intently at them across a meeting room is a different thing entirely.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 7 January 2018 15:59 (seven years ago)
good point.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:02 (seven years ago)
xp to rushomancy I get that, def, but I disagree that it changes how a guy should behave
It's nice to compliment ppl and it's nice to notice when things are nice and if you do notice then an internal filter should be more thoughtful imo than "I'm not meant to notice these things I'll say nothing"
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:08 (seven years ago)
are any of yall actually getting laid behind any of these compliments
seems like the efficacy of complimenation is, by assumption, way overrated itt
― j., Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:10 (seven years ago)
HEY NICE CANS LADY
'your fabric choices are divine'
<furious smooching>
― j., Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:11 (seven years ago)
I think the premise of this thread is pretty obviously about a sincere compliment without an ulterior motive.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:15 (seven years ago)
well then what's the mystery
― j., Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:19 (seven years ago)
ooh cute shoes
― j., Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:20 (seven years ago)
there, voila
I used a Denzel Washington line from training day actually during a putative romantic liaison the last day and almost needless to say it ended things immediately so it ain't what you say it's the way that you say it and uh whether or not you are Denzel
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:22 (seven years ago)
or whether the other person watched the same movie
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:29 (seven years ago)
If complimenting co-workers feels like really uncertain territory to you, try practicing by complimenting them on their work, or their desk decorations, or something that is not attached to their body. Once you feel more relaxed in those waters and see how that kind of remark is received, then you might try a scarf or hair compliment.
― mick signals, Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:31 (seven years ago)
"i like your mug"
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:39 (seven years ago)
when i look good coworkers will compliment my wife, because men, particularly married men, aren't supposed to be able to dress themselves.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, January 7, 2018 3:58 PM (one hour ago)
?!?!?!?!
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 January 2018 16:59 (seven years ago)
Does Rushomancy live in the 1950s?
― emil.y, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:00 (seven years ago)
"You look great for a change, who dressed you?"
― mick signals, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:00 (seven years ago)
shit
I'm pretty sure I've gotten that since Christmas
Herself bought me clothes for Christmas
Shit
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:01 (seven years ago)
I really can't remember ever needing to make a personal-appearance compliment to a woman in the workplace. I have just always found something else to talk about. Work, the weather, current events, music, TV, movies, kids, books, pets, sports, restaurants, coffee. I'd probably have to exhaust that list - and quite a bit more - before the only thing I could say would be "your hair looks nice" or w/ev.
One time I told a woman that I thought her (rainbow-swirl) eyeglass frames were a bold choice, and funky in a good way (we'd already been talking about glasses; she'd just complimented mine). Another time I told a gay coworker that I liked his tattoo, and showed him mine. Both of these were in after-work happy-hour situations, where we all knew each other well and everybody's partnership/marital status was well-established. Otherwise I've just always found other things to talk about.
That said, 23 of my 25 years of work have been for small women-owned businesses. This encompasses some fairly heavily female professions (health care, PR, pro-environment nonprofits). And compliments between women have been commonplace ("I like those boots!" "Nice skirt!"). I have been complimented myself, and I always just take it as nice banter, but I have no problem with it being basically a one-way street most of the time.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:04 (seven years ago)
"Keep calm and carry on, eh? Aheheh."
― But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:05 (seven years ago)
i think the actual fear people have is not they will actually creep someone out -- you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals -- but that some mean spirited person will twist around their words in order to hurt them.
idk about anyone else, but I'd say that I fear both? "you can avoid that by having decent intentions and reading signals" feels like missing the point, if you're sincerely worried and confused about this stuff (rather than just using it as an excuse) it's probably because you *can't* read signals?
Re: the original question, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a simple compliment without coming across as a creep.
but it is for some people, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist!
NB I don't think I've ever commented on a co-worker's clothes/hair/etc, partially for fear of creeping them out, partially because I know that I always feel embarrassed and uncomfortable if someone mentions my appearance, regardless of apparent motive or how complimentary they were being (I don't want to give the impression that I'm constantly providing a running commentary on other people's appearance)
― soref, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:05 (seven years ago)
When someone (usually a much-older woman) has remarked on my appearance (hair, glasses, tie, suit, whatever) - I'm not creeped out. I don't think she's trying to get into bed with me. But I do get a trifle self-conscious, similar to what soref intimates.
Workplace cultures clearly vary a lot, and different people approach them with different attitudes. But generally, when I go to work I go to work. My objective is to get through it guickly, so I can get home to my wife and children and my beer-fridge and my guitars.
I try to be pleasant and personable, but for me it's not really a place where I need to make friends (let alone flirt or look for dates). Liking someone's boots or tie or haircut is obviously fine as water-cooler chit-chat for some folks, but to me it's just a distraction.
Maybe some people approach work differently because it's become their main social outlet? Perhaps because they have relatively few meatspace friends outside work? Perhaps because modern work styles just occupy so much of their day/week that they can't bear it not being social? I don't know.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:17 (seven years ago)
ive never had an issue with this. in a professional environment i may act a little more personable at times but i only say something if i actually mean it. so if my boss has a paisley top on i will say "Wow cool paisley" or something. same with if someone gets a haircut, if it's somebody you see every day anyways, nothing wrong with saying "Oh nice haircut" just don't be a creep about it
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:20 (seven years ago)
modern work styles just occupy so much of their day/week that they can't bear it not being social?
this is interesting cos modern work styles both have that social aspect to them (being on social networks, attending office events, cornhole tosses, etc.) and with flex-time you have people telecommuting more and more. it's kind of a weird mix.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:22 (seven years ago)
rule #1 is don’t toss your colleagues’ cornholes imo
― pee-wee and the power men (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:31 (seven years ago)
Oh good another thread about ilx ppl rambling on about themselves
― albvivertine, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:33 (seven years ago)
Sometimes I compliment ppl sometimes I don't
― albvivertine, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:34 (seven years ago)
I don't know if I'm stating the obvious but it's possible to compliment someone on something that doesn't involve their looks or their clothing choices
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:35 (seven years ago)
can't believe people are talking about themselves on a messageboard
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:36 (seven years ago)
we need to get back to the issues
― j., Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:38 (seven years ago)
issues are not workplace appropriate imo
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:40 (seven years ago)
Oh good the guy who said this conversation was the same as guys complaining that feminism means they can’t hold the door open for ladies anymore is back to continue belittling a discussion that he can’t be bothered to read
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:42 (seven years ago)
And yeah you are stating the obvious thanks
Specifically on a thread which is about interacting with other ppl tho? I mean, there've been reactions from them right? Just not thrilled with how "and then I did this and felt like this because I'm a person who feels this" this thread feels. xpost
― albvivertine, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:42 (seven years ago)
If you're an extrovert who is new to a city, has few/no local contacts, and works all the time, you may depend more heavily on work to provide your social circle. Also if you work in an industry or for an organization where the ethos is "we work hard and we play hard." You know, like those 90s/00s offices with foosball and a keg.
If you telework, or have a lot going on outside work, you might depend on work less for your social outlet. It varies.
Perhaps that's why some people are having a hard time knowing the rules. And other people are like, "Huh? How is this even hard?"
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:42 (seven years ago)
Sorry you felt belittled on the thread about men assaulting women
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:46 (seven years ago)
I am always being reminded that even amongst people I am close to there are a wide variety of often conflicting ideas about what normal/acceptable/good behaviour consists of, and there is no way that universal simple clear rules could operate other than to silence some people and tell them they're being oversensitive/not sensitive enough
― ogmor, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:53 (seven years ago)
― emil.y
the 1970s, but seriously, whatever year it is now this sort of thing does still happen on a regular basis.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:53 (seven years ago)
When I started wearing jeans that fit/looked good a woman I ended up friends with presumed from a distance I'd gotten a girlfriend, that was like 10 years ago
― albvivertine, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:58 (seven years ago)
"try talking about literally anything aside from the person's appearance" = much better way to develop work friendships than a compliment, to which the person replies "thanks" and the conversation ends there.
think about it for a full minute. how many other things are there in the world to talk about that might be better received than "i like what you've done with your hair" i hope you think about that for a nice long while (more than a minute) before you wonder "when will i be able to compliment my coworkers' hair safely and without fear?"
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:06 (seven years ago)
yeah Mad Puffin, and I'd add a variant to that phenomenon of work-as-social life, just from my own experience: people who work at mission-driven non-profits, where they're dealing on the one hand with intense political issues on the one hand, and with clients who are in frequent crisis/trauma on the other. ime many if not most of the front-line workers (and often the managers as well) need to feel a sense of supportiveness and belonging in such a workplace -- the word 'family' is often invoked and not entirely out of place. That sense of support comes from a mixture of things: feeling respected, having friends in the office (it doesn't need to be everyone, but at least a few), being able to laugh, a sense of informality... This feeling -of real friendship- seems to me incredibly important as a protective factor against burnout, the accumulation of stress, vicarious trauma, etc.
I know exceptions to this. I've known people in such settings who are glad to head straight to their cubicles, check off action items, eat at their desk, leave at five pm, and be done with it. Most of the examples that come to mind though are folks whose jobs were less client-oriented to begin with (the accountant, the IT guy, etc).
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:07 (seven years ago)
The last person that I ran into -quite serious- difficulties with ito presumption of romantic interest was somebody I had only ever spoken to about (and complimented her on) her work
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:08 (seven years ago)
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 17:46 (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Sorry you felt you had to come into this thread to earn your badge for that
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:10 (seven years ago)
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous)
i once worked at a place where the owner felt it was very important for us to be "family". unfortunately for everyone involved he did a very good job at implementing that environment.
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:12 (seven years ago)
Sorry don't understand? Thought original point - compliments don't have to be about looks or clothes - was worth making.
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:14 (seven years ago)
xposts: I agree LL that hair is often a dead-end, but noticing something like, let's say, someone's cool vintage shoes, old bike jersey, or interesting t-shirt can lead to stories about where they got the item, the "hunt" involved, maybe the event associated with it (music show/bike ride/race, etc). it can end up becoming a conversation about a lot more than just that piece of clothing.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:16 (seven years ago)
La Lechera otm. SO many other things to talk about.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:18 (seven years ago)
the "family" concept is problematic to say the least, but i stand by the idea that for some jobs, a straightforward and mostly impersonal "professional" environment is not enough to sustain those doing the front-line work, and to protect them from burnout.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:20 (seven years ago)
1. It comes across as false modesty, “sorry if I’m staying the obvious” 2. It assumes people on this thread you aren’t following closely are being idiots 3. And yes, it was stated quite clearly in the precursor discussion to this thread - where you pulled pretty much the same thing. Your hair looks great though, did you do something with it?
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:25 (seven years ago)
cool, keep enjoying your emotional hair-trigger
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:33 (seven years ago)
La Lechera otm x 1000
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:36 (seven years ago)
I guess one thing to avoid too is the not paying attention dad-style compliment, e.g. "I like what you've done with your hair" "Thanks for noticing dad, it's been like this for three years."
At the office that becomes your manager telling you you've done a great job (or whatever) or some piece of work, and you're left thinking "Yep, this is the same thing I've been doing for years, totally unrecognised, thanks for finally paying attention."
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:41 (seven years ago)
I kinda can't fathom addressing the appearance of a coworker I wasn't actively chummy with, aside from maybe like, 'hey, buddy, maybe you need to rethink that mesh shirt before the boss comes around, whaddaya say?'
― Bobby Buttrock (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 January 2018 18:56 (seven years ago)
ogmor otm basically
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:01 (seven years ago)
― ogmor, Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:53 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This is true, and I think regarding LL's story it's extremely important to trust the gut instinct that says something is being said in a way that is "off" or in a way that makes you uncomfortable.
My mom told a story about being at a nature preserve last year taking photos and she was alone, and a very "nice" seeming random middle aged guy offered to help her with her photos, since she was requiring some help in setting someone thing up. Why did he offer?? She wasn't sure. But it seemed innocuous. BUT she felt weirded out. She did let him help but she said she should have trusted her first instinct -- he started to get inexplicably testy when she was taking awhile to set something up. She took a moment to "go back to her car for something" and quickly drove off.
She's sure that guy was just an asshole but she said she was kicking herself for not splitting immediately.
I also remember a date I had where the woman suddenly shut down conversationally and shortly thereafter got up and left. She later emailed me and explained that I had used some turns of phrase that reminded me of an extremely bad ex. I forget what they were. I at first thought maybe it was her way out of a crappy date but I don't think so; I was kind of annoyed tbh but I look back and of. Purse it was her total right to be weirded out by anything. If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.
― omar little, Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:14 (seven years ago)
Seems like we should calibrate our behavior for the 999 times that doesn't happen, not for the one time it does, maybe?
Because overwhelmingly, the stories of guys actually being creeps dramatically outnumber the stories of innocuous statements that someone, somewhere, once found creepy.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:27 (seven years ago)
I’m not sure “stories” is the right noun there YMP
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:32 (seven years ago)
"of. Purse" should be "of course" not sure what the hell happened there...
xxp
― omar little, Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:35 (seven years ago)
yeah omar otmi know this is a v common subject on twitter now & more common out in public than the workplace but i cannot stress this enough: dudes need to understand how quickly an innocuous situation can spiral into weird for women in the blink of an eye an older man at the post office asked me to help him fill out a form because he had impaired vision from cataracts & so i said sure. (my old college tutor had similar issues & i knew how difficult fine print was)so as i’m reading the form to him he moved very close & said in a low voice “my you sure are a beautiful young lady” and i quickly said “ok i have to leave now” and bolted like maybe he was lonely and didnt have much contact with ppl or maybe the story was a ploy to stand close to women either way it’s scary & infuriating that straightforward situation A becomes wtf situation ! in like a fucking nanosecond in a seemingly safe public place surrounded by ppli hate it if a stranger or someone i never have interacted with socially pays me a compliment i take it with the mindset of expecting the other shoe to drop. ie inevitable weird awkward uncomfortable followup so am a) immediately suspicious and b) usually keep moving because it happens ALL the timeall the timeif it’s someone you know that’s different but compliments for us, ie women, so often have a creepy awful catch out in the world
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:37 (seven years ago)
this happened when i was in my 20’s. i was sitting by a pool at a hotel dangling my feet in the water, in jeans & a tshirta guy was reading on a lounge chair & made conversation. all was fine, very innocuous. after a while he got up to leave & said “i like that color red on you” & handed me a piece of paper with a 3 digit number on it. i was not wearing anything red. except my underpants. which were showing slightly above the waistband of my jeans bcz i was sitting down. the number was his room number. i was so horrified & humiliated that i went back to my room and stayed there til i checked out the next day. seriously who does that!? why would you do that
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 19:47 (seven years ago)
man that is gross. i can think of many situations that turned on a dime like that.
recently i was on the train on the way home (alone) from a musical performance on a sunday afternoon. an older man in a red tracksuit struck up a conversation with me, and i was ok with it because 1) i enjoy talking to strangers 2) whatever who cares, no one else to talk to we chatted about dogs, the weather, the performance i sawi was careful not to tell him too much about myself, i did mention i am married. i was slowly edging away from this person. he said "you look too young to be married, look at you -- you don't even need makeup" and that's when i had to tell this old man "hey, that's not ok. you shouldn't make comments on a stranger's appearance or they will get the wrong idea" he actually looked at me in the face and said "i'm a man, i have to try" i said "no, actually you don't" and we talked a little more about dogs
but like this is a throwaway conversation with a random OLD MAN ON THE TRAIN
if you are still like "O NO how can i compliment my coworkers on their cute boots?!?!?!?!" i really wonder how genuine this concern is and how much you just want to sweat people to "hash out the rules"
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:18 (seven years ago)
I think these last two posts show why people have got to stfu in the workplace sometimes, there is too much fucked up male behaviour out there for any female to assume that you are a benign and lovely person who just really happens to like commenting on women's jumpers/coffee mugs/boots etc
― calzino, Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:27 (seven years ago)
i also wonder if certain guys think that flattery is how they have to initiate conversation with a woman, like a sort of gambit “she would never talk to me otherwise” kind of thing? like they’ve been taught this somewhereit isn’t necessary! sure if something genuinely catches your eye maybe but as a general way of interacting, talking about ~things out in the world~ is just fine
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:29 (seven years ago)
veg otm
― kolakube (Ross), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:30 (seven years ago)
what male co-workers think their hugs feel like vs. what they actually feel like pic.twitter.com/9FnsiS4qW7— Audrey Porne (@AudreyPorne) January 6, 2018
― pplains, Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:31 (seven years ago)
I can't imagine never ever EVER talking or wanting to talk to a co-worker about their looks, and whenever another dude talks to me about a woman in this way (which is thankfully rare) I want to die
― Simon H., Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:33 (seven years ago)
xpost lol truth
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:33 (seven years ago)
LL: ugh. So sad and sorry that happened/happens.
Still I think "no, actually you don't" is an A+ response
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:35 (seven years ago)
Jared Kushner at thirty-six prided himself on his ability to get along with older men.
― reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:36 (seven years ago)
uhh
― Simon H., Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:36 (seven years ago)
If you cross a line--even if you find the line to be one that is not commonly considered a line--you either have to reconsider how you should approach situations OR at the very least accept that you crossed someone's personal line and respect their decision and allow them their feeling.
this may well be a failure of comprehension on my part, but I don't understand what "reconsider how you should approach situations" means here unless it's looking for more rules on how to interact with ppl, or more complex, more nuanced rules with more caveats and conditions?
(I mean, obv if someone tells you that they consider a specific thing you've done or said crossed a line and creeped them out that you should respect that and not do/say that thing again, but I think you're talking about how not to creep someone out in the first place?)
wrt to the gut instinct that someone is "off" or "weird" in some way that makes you uncomfortable - my fear is that I always come across as as off and weird and I don't know how to correct that - I spent years trying to learn the rules of how to talk to ppl, the set of rules I carried around in my head being added to and getting more and more unwieldy every time another attempt to interact with someone ended in disaster (NB I'm not only talking about interactions with women here, or where someone inferred that I was trying to proposition them in some way - I've never tried to chat someone up, and always avoid talking about ppl's appearance or anything that I think could be interpreted as sexually suggestive - but all failed interactions with men or women where they seem weirded out). But adding to the rules didn't work and I think now that it's maybe a dead end, it's a million little things, eye contact, body language, dress sense as much as what you actually say and I don't think I'll ever be able to get them all "right".
I'd read stuff by women where they imply that men breaking social rules/crossing lines, even wrt to apparently innocuous non-sexual stuff makes them feel unsafe, because if someone is willing to break *this* social rule then who knows what over rules they might break? I guess this is the gut instinct thing. If a woman feels creeped out by something I do or say, or by *me* more generally then I "allow them their feeling" as Omar says, I can't say that they're wrong to feel that way, but I don't know what the solution is, if not a better understanding of the rules? I've tried to remove myself from human interaction as much as possible over the last few years because it has always ended badly, if not creeping someone out then at least annoying them, or being taken advantage of by them. But I've met other ppl who are socially awkward and apparently unaware of it, or who at least persist in trying to talk to other ppl anyway, and the thought of being one of those people is horrifying to me, I don't think there's anything these ppl could do to improve themselves either, they are just fundamentally repulsive at some level?
― soref, Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:49 (seven years ago)
I was struck by this thing that La Lechera said in the other thread about why she found the guy's comment on her hair objectionable
it struck me as memorable because of how scripted it felt, like it was from a reader's digest "list of things to say to women if you want to make a positive impression"
because whenever I would try to talk to someone (about anything, not specifically about their hair), particularly when consciously trying to follow these 'rules' so as not to be creepy, my speech would sound off-puttingly robotic and I got the impression that this in itself creeped ppl out - I don't know what the alternative is though, this stuff doesn't come naturally?
― soref, Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:53 (seven years ago)
i'm very reticent to compliment a woman on her looks in the workplace, more likely to compliment them on their work ethic. only feel comfortable complimenting someone if i know them well and know that it's a genuine compliment, otherwise it feels cheap. knowing boundaries is key, sucks to hear there's so much toxic bullshit
― kolakube (Ross), Sunday, 7 January 2018 20:57 (seven years ago)
To me the way I work with these things is that I start by understanding what is considered respectful/not respectful by someone and then communicate along those lines, it is how I operate with someone I would want as a friend, mentor, a potential partner, male/female, etc this is pretty much how I want to be treated to begin with. If you make a mistake, apologize and then don't do the mistake again. In the workplace (or at school!) there is going to be enough social situations that make you understand how a person wants to be treated. I guess what I'm saying is to apply as much empathy as possible at all times. Some people, male or female, love to get their looks complimented at work, some people, male or female, really dislike it (I dislike it), it is up to you to find out.
― Van Horn Street, Sunday, 7 January 2018 21:34 (seven years ago)
I have yet to meet anyone who loves to get their looks complimented at work.
― pplains, Sunday, 7 January 2018 21:46 (seven years ago)
Ross has hit the simplest answer above: "more likely to compliment them on their work ethic". Its been explained well above by VG, LL et al but really, we just want to do our work, and have people compliment and respect and notice *that*, like professionals?
Put yourself in our shoes lads and think how you'd feel if you were constantly commented on for your suit or shoes or hair, but never the awesome meeting agenda you worked overtime to come up with or the budget adjustment that will save the companies arse.
And yes sorry if you have to rehearse and recite a list and you know you sound "robotic", then yeah its going to come over as a little forced and weird. I wish I could come up with a solution there, Ive known guys on the spectrum.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Sunday, 7 January 2018 21:56 (seven years ago)
Our office has a yearly "most cheerful staff member" award that always seems to go to a female member of staff. We complain about it every year and get the normal "buzzkill" and "you're overthinking it" responses.
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 22:11 (seven years ago)
I just try to be respectful of people as people and as professionals. That's the "rule" to begin with. If I happen to build a foundation of mutual trust and personal friendship with some colleagues, then and only then would I start to look for signs to see if things like appreciation of clothes, or let's say goodbye hugs before a long trip, would be welcome and feel natural. If something feels awkward or weird, that's probably because, regardless of intention, that foundation isn't there yet.
I would add that I don't consider it ok to build such a work-based friendship with just anyone. There are cases where it's not appropriate, given your relative places in the organizational structure.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Sunday, 7 January 2018 22:30 (seven years ago)
Forgive me if this is stating the obvious, or just repeating what others have said, but I think there's a straightforward reason why there can never be stark lines between acceptable social behavior and misconduct. It's because the point of coming up with these kinds of rules, for well-meaning people, would be to protect others from feelings of distress, fear, and violation. But what causes these feelings will vary widely with context and from one person to another. The only rules that could fully capture all the requisite nuance would be too complicated to even state, let alone apply to everyday life.
For ill-meaning people, meanwhile--and I'm not talking about anyone here--the point of drawing these lines is to be able to get away with hurting people by claiming that you technically followed the rules.
So we have to make do with rules of thumb and try to deal with the exceptions as they come. This places a heavier burden on people with social difficulties. That's just the nature of the situation.
― JRN, Sunday, 7 January 2018 22:37 (seven years ago)
I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk. If anything people tend to be more forgiving. (I may work in an abnormally nice office, not that it doesn't have its own problems, like a maternity leave policy that's basically evil.)
― Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 7 January 2018 22:55 (seven years ago)
I've worked with lots of people with "social difficulties" and I don't find them any worse or better at dealing with gender issues than "regular" folk
Not to make this All About Me, but I have a son with a pretty serious intellectual disability. (Feel free to scroll if I mention this too often, but it's a huge part of the topic for me.)
Right now he's 6, tremendously outgoing and social and affectionate. His interactions are still mostly in the cute-but-odd zone. He can't talk, so he expresses himself with a lot of gestures and a lot of touch. He hugs a lot of people, blows kisses at a lot of people (an extension of ASL "thank you"). Sometimes he will awkwardly/sloppily kiss friends, teachers, babysitters.
We are working hard on getting him to tone it down, and do more handshakes/high-fives. Because we know that what's cute at age 4-5 will be seriously inappropriate at age 11-12. Also working on learning that the context of gymnastics class or physical therapy (where touching is normal) are different from music class or speech therapy. Of course, lots of our friends/family love him to pieces and tell us it's all right; they like hugs, etc. But it complicates the message that not everybody wants a hug.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 January 2018 23:54 (seven years ago)
This is one of those moments when the person who's addressing you just throws out a totally bland observational statement and then expects you to pick up the conversational slack.lol yes it was awful. i offered nothing! respected the hell out of his immediate smackdown tbh
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 January 2018 23:59 (seven years ago)
My ASC son is 15 now. And his violent behaviour has become a major hazard, and his frequent unrestrained masturbation has gone way beyond the cute but odd zone! But he never directs it towards women or men so far, he just humps his pillow in his bedroom, often very loudly and the rule is, he shuts the fucking door and what he does is his business. i don't know if that is a long term winner, but it'll do for me for now.
― calzino, Monday, 8 January 2018 00:05 (seven years ago)
I was pretty disgusted to see this deeply unpleasant article published on a UK HR Resource site:https://www.hrzone.com/engage/employees/how-can-we-better-understand-the-office-creep
There's so much rich insight coming out of the academic sector that HR professionals need to know. At Academics' Corner we feature the best HR researchers that tell you what they’ve found and what you need to do differently on the back of the research. Get connected to the academic sector through Academics’ Corner and make sure you never miss another piece of key research again...
And the insights?
If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy....
The person is behaving in ways that make him unpredictable. Maybe he laughs too hard or at inappropriate times. Perhaps he stands too close to you, licks his lips a bit too frequently while speaking, or the eye contact is inappropriately intimate or distant.
Does he keep steering the conversation in the direction of sex or other topics that seem ill suited to the setting?
If the person has unusual or unpleasant prominent physical characteristics, the impression of creepiness can be magnified.
It would be considered rude or embarrassing to scream and run away from this odd person who has done nothing overtly threatening, but, on the other hand, it could be perilous to ignore your intuition and get more deeply involved in an interaction that could lead to danger. After all, if the person is clueless about the mundane rules of normal human interaction, what other rules might he be willing to violate? This ambivalence leaves you frozen in place, wallowing in unease.
Our “creep detectors” activate in situations like this to help us maintain a state of hyper-vigilance to help us figure out if there is in fact anything to fear or not. Being creeped out can be mentally exhausting because it uses a lot of our available cognitive processing capacity.
― Luna Schlosser, Monday, 8 January 2018 00:17 (seven years ago)
Wow that is so awful.
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 8 January 2018 00:43 (seven years ago)
If you are having trouble thinking of who the creep is at your workplace, it probably means that you are the guy.
Shit. I'm the only man in my current workplace, so I guess it's me. I'd better report myself to management. Which is also me! Crap, I'm going to have to fire me. AWKWARD.
― failsun ra (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 8 January 2018 01:23 (seven years ago)
I suppose the problem with the idea of the 'office creep' is that sometimes there really is an office creep, and sometimes, Childish Adults like to gang up on someone and bully them by calling them the office creep. Sometimes the person called the office creep really doesn't deserve it, whilst several more deserving candidates go unchallenged. Sometimes probably most of the time the situation is somewhere between all these.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that men prob shouldn't treat the workplace as a source of sexy women to be flirted with. Some of the men saying 'But what CAN I say?' sound like this is their problem. Some of them sound legit confused and well-meaning though. What about other men you work with who clearly do go in to work to flirt and no-one seems to mind? Is it okay because no-one seems to mind?
I think the discussion up-thread where good will and ill will come up is otm x100, no? Suppose two well-meaning people; if one of them accidentally makes a faux-pas to the other it surely won't be too hard to patch up; but bring an ill-meaning person into the equation ...
There is also a really important difference, and I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, between basically good exciting jobs that you want for a career, like being a lawyer or whatever, and dead-end jobs you're doing because you need the money. These workplaces are v different, the idea of 'professionalism' is a lot more self-evident in some jobs than others.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 02:21 (seven years ago)
^^^ this
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 8 January 2018 03:23 (seven years ago)
jesus christ
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 03:31 (seven years ago)
is this a parody?
are strange, socially awkward people the ones who are harassing people? or is this article conflating two separate phenomena: sexual predation and poor social skills.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 03:35 (seven years ago)
Just responding to the OP, I haven't delved further yet: That's a woeful misinterpretation of my comments on the other thread. For one, I'm pretty much an outsider looking in on the drama. I'm at zero risk of ever being accused of sexual harassment at my job. I'm a rather introverted and taciturn person: I don't intentionally flirt. I'm no longer sexually attracted to anything, and to my knowledge have never been suspected of untoward behavior even when I was. My interest isn't personal, but societal.
My intent was to point out that there was a glib assumption on that thread that the lines between what is unacceptable harassment, and what is innocuous flirtation, are clear to everyone. They aren't. Life doesn't come with an instruction manual.
The most interesting articles regarding the current moment, for me, have been those that step back, and while acknowledging that there's predatory behavior worthy of prison, termination, or ostracization, there's also a wide grey area of acts that when discomfiting could constitute sexual harassment, but when appealing (to the recipient) could also be flirtation. Allison Benedikt's The Upside of Office Flirtation?, for example.
It's good that our society is having this moment. There are plenty of people who have been intimidated into silence for too long. I would like something more to come of it than endless revelations that seemingly most men, given any power, are terrible. This is a teachable moment, for boys, too. I'd like a clearer consensus as to what's acceptable to emerge.
― Sanpaku, Monday, 8 January 2018 04:00 (seven years ago)
I don't think there is a clear distinction between career jobs and paying the bills jobs, or that it matters much in terms of whats appropriate. Also worth remembering that in the UK at least married couples are more likely to have met at work than anywhere else.
― ogmor, Monday, 8 January 2018 08:06 (seven years ago)
Is that true now?
To me, work is purely about rent - that drives all my attitudes. So compliments are given purely where my (male or female) work colleague has done something to get us all through the day in an easier way. That's all I expect in return. Even then, I know this is forgotten as soon as its given. Tomorrow is another day.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 10:16 (seven years ago)
fwiw every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it
you're right, sanpaku, there are no bright lines - what is innocuous to one party, or at least "just a bit of fun", can feel threatening and awful to someone else
i'm not sure who was being "glib" about this - many people were making this exact point
anyway, ultimately why not follow the hippocratic oath? first, do no harm. just don't flirt at the office. millions of people manage to restrain themselves from flirting at the office every day! it's okay. society will survive a lack of office flirtation! in fact, if you listen to the women on this thread, and elsewhere - it will probably thrive!
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 8 January 2018 10:21 (seven years ago)
every single time i have witnessed actual "flirtation" among colleagues - and it's been very rare - it has been, 100% of the time without exception, totally gross and everybody witnessing it felt embarrassed and awkward about it
my college roommate was a natural flirter and he'd grokked for himself the PUA rules so he'd always be touching women's hands and ugh. he met a girl in the period before classes started in our first year and dated her throughout college, so he was NOT on the prowl, he was just naturally this way. dunno what the women thought of him, I liked him otherwise but found this stuff awful.
he ended up knocking up the girl by the end of senior year, then marrying her. they got divorced at some point recently & I see from fb that's she's remarried. guess that KINO ran out eventually.
― droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 8 January 2018 10:41 (seven years ago)
I thought I'd read a survey from the last few years saying work was still the most common place to meet a spouse altho the only thing I can find atm is one saying that spouses who met at work are more likely to stay together than those who met by other means. It's definitely very common though, so anyone campaigning to eradicate workplace flirtation in toto is going to have quite a battle on their hands
― ogmor, Monday, 8 January 2018 11:34 (seven years ago)
HR are cops- no surprise that they understand little and care less, and look for easy targets
― But doctor, I am Camille Paglia (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 8 January 2018 11:35 (seven years ago)
XP yeah the answer is not gonna be 100% nor 0% folks sorry if that's a spoiler
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 11:38 (seven years ago)
I’ve dated people from work.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 11:40 (seven years ago)
actually just thought about a few things from past life yeh I can't say any of it ended especially well - or especially badly really
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 11:41 (seven years ago)
You already have shared experiences, and even shared grievances with other colleagues. Working together is a powerful bonding experience.
There are also many downsides. And if the workplace is too small it xan be a really bad idea. But still, I think that if people think they have a shot at love they should take it because personal relationships are more important than HR prerogatives. What I’m talking about is different than being the office cad.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 11:44 (seven years ago)
A possible glimmer of positivity is that more work mobility / nontraditional work arrangements mean that just because you meet at work doesn't mean you have to work together closely. Odds are, one or both of you will soon move on to a different job. Or maybe one of you is a freelancer or consultant and will be moving on to a different assignment soon.
It makes things a lot easier. My one - one - workplace dalliance didn't really start in earnest until I'd left that job.
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 8 January 2018 13:43 (seven years ago)
I’m on team work is work. Be nice/pleasant, say good morning/night/how was your weekend, but generally just mind your own business and get your work done.
― Jeff, Monday, 8 January 2018 13:50 (seven years ago)
my only girlfriend from work dumped me because i was too young for her. she immediately starting dating the (older) design director. seeing them together was so agonising that i quit and didn't reach the same career level until approx 10 years later ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 8 January 2018 13:51 (seven years ago)
at one job this guy who sat in the same work group as me ended up being my mortal enemy because I was seeing a colleague who he'd had an unrequited crush on for years - me and the woman in question got together after meeting socially tho, not thru workplace flirtation
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:00 (seven years ago)
Team work is work and college is college and food time is food time and whatnot
What's your mating schedule
Only in nightclubs or
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:01 (seven years ago)
And death is death
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:05 (seven years ago)
being is
― ogmor, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:06 (seven years ago)
people are people
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:06 (seven years ago)
I am team "don't hit on people at work" tho
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:07 (seven years ago)
Office flirtation will never end because *drum rolls*
People are people
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:09 (seven years ago)
xp Hashtag metoo but "work is work" is bizarre stuff unless you don't work with any humans
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:09 (seven years ago)
I definitely don’t think people “should” do that but sometimes things happen and people get together.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:09 (seven years ago)
.....Profit
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:10 (seven years ago)
yeah that is exactly what i thought. I'm irritated that sanpaku thought he needed to teach us this Very Important Lesson by pretending he didn't understand how people work -- that was my fear as stated upthread and I'm not especially satisfied to have been right.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:10 (seven years ago)
In terms of who was being "glib" about this, imo the following is pretty glib and also representative of the general response to Sanpaku in the other thread:
Sanpaku is worried that if he compliments a co-worker on their hair, clothes etc, that some might take it as flirtation or indeed harassment and he could lose his job.
Let's fix this, ILX! we can do it!
― soref, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:16 (seven years ago)
We'll get started on planning the third thread folks.....it'll be grand
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:22 (seven years ago)
soref we've been over that and I've apologised fwiw those posts were entirely sincere
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:25 (seven years ago)
I like Feminista Jones's attitude about unwanted compliments. Respond back with "I Know!" But yeah, I am team work is work. Women are not in the workforce to find a husband. Don't patronize a colleague by making small talk about their looks. This is so stupid. If you hit on colleagues at work as a thing, you have terrible judgement and more than likely people have been warned about you.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:35 (seven years ago)
Some of my friends and I were just talking yesterday about men in cars stopping to ask directions or to ask the time, and then you see they are jacking it or they then ask you an extremely graphic question.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:37 (seven years ago)
I'm going to pile on a bit (sorry Tracer ilu) and say that 'being a creep' is generally pretty unhelpful framing because it gets people defensive, as it's about them, and they know they're not a creep. 'acting like a creep' or similar moves the focus of what we want to avoid outwards to 'things that your co-workers might find awkward'.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:38 (seven years ago)
ftr tracer is blameless in my rephrased thread title and has already new culpa'd himself sincerely for the rest
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:40 (seven years ago)
Also gah I have remembered that my previous boss once defended a co-worker who he had just told me had been taking up-skirt shots at the Christmas Party* as "Well, you wouldn't call him a sexist, would you?".
*the party was one of those '20 companies in an enormous hall' businesses, I think it was other people's employees that he was snapping, not that it makes it any better but it explains why he wasn't fired from a cannon.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:41 (seven years ago)
xp fair enough - you've been solidly otm the rest of this thread.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:42 (seven years ago)
Yerac that's all valid and all
I think that a decent proportion of the thread has kinda been at pains to note in the most part that "hitting on" is a specific activity separate -not always, not always- to talking to your co-workers about non-work related issues, another subset of which might at times be their cool t-shirt or whatever
Throwing it all back in to a "hitting on" melting pot monolithic heading as if to say there's a strong cohort of ppl itt whooping and stamping their feet for the right to "hit on" colleagues seems a strange reading
Sometimes men in cars jerk off also
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:45 (seven years ago)
ftr I am also on team "don't hit nor hit on your colleagues" and also on team "don't hit on ppl in most contexts" in fact I think team "don't hit on anyone that term seems a toxic one" is a team I could at least warm a bench for
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:48 (seven years ago)
I don’t understand why people taking upskirt photos or jerking off in cars came into it. That has nothing to do with flirting.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:51 (seven years ago)
but it's hard to know where the boundaries are
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 14:53 (seven years ago)
Also “hitting on” is a bad, aggressive term. Deems otm. No one should do that.
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 14:54 (seven years ago)
Lol Noodle
What if flirtation IS hitting on *galaxy brain meme*
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:03 (seven years ago)
The sound of a million coffee cups hitting a million floors
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:03 (seven years ago)
Oh the men jerking off in cars just emphasizes how a seemingly innocent encounter can rapidly escalate.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:05 (seven years ago)
Another 500 posts on where the boundaries are
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:06 (seven years ago)
Im flabbergasted that ppl don't recognise the penis/divining rod method of navigation itt
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:09 (seven years ago)
Complimenting colleagues (who you have no other relationship with) on their appearance or hygiene or choice of clothing at work is just weird. Don't do it.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:10 (seven years ago)
Cool shirt
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:12 (seven years ago)
^ this is pretty much always ok to say to someone you are allowed to talk to
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:13 (seven years ago)
Aye, I'm not suggesting that my boss thought that upskirt photos were flirting / compliments - just an example of the extremes of bad framing.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:13 (seven years ago)
This is only acceptable if it is indeed a cool shirt.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:13 (seven years ago)
Cool hygiene isnt, I'll give u that
Correct of course to note that disagreements about coolness of shirts etc is another minefield
XP to AF idk tho criticising the framing is more a technical complaint nest pas
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:14 (seven years ago)
shirts with slogans on are tricky because sometimes you can't read them without staring at somebody's chest so probably best avoided at work
also name tags with really small fonts
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:15 (seven years ago)
I mean there are so many variables. Lots of people work with family members, old friends...if you worked at a perfumerie it's fine to constantly tell people they smell nice. If you work in fashion you may discuss appearance. Some people are just choosing to be daft in order to pretend like past behavior may be ok.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:18 (seven years ago)
i worked somewhere before where people would hug you when you came back from holiday, or i dunno, when you arrived hungover for a 6am shift or something. it prob sounds awful but we all really liked each other. it was a brilliant place to work. it wasn't like hugging was enforced or something, we all just spent a lot of time together in a high-pressure environment, and it was a well-functioning team working in kids' tv, which i guess is fun and nice subject matter.
colleagues can become friends. if the culture of a workplace is good then people complimenting each other can be fairly normal, though personally i'd tend to avoid it. i think "i like your shoes" or whatever is prob fine. but there's a time where a team gets to know each other and a lot of the rules go away, people become comfortable with each other, a few people leave, a few people join, it all resets again. i'd never comment on someone's physical appearance tho - i mean unless we'd become good friends or whatever (which has happened in workplaces, a lot - this thread seems to avoid that possibility - i've worked with people i liked enough to hang out with outside of work)
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:24 (seven years ago)
Team work is work is easy for me, because evidently I am not a human. Work robot.
― Jeff, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:28 (seven years ago)
People don't do cool things at work. Only time was when someone turned up wearing a t-shirt w/the hammer and sickle. One in a million and I was only amused (as I knew he took part in interesting activities when young). Even then I didn't say anything.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:29 (seven years ago)
i had a colleague who used to whisper "you smell nice" to me, occasionally, in morning meetings - if the genders were reversed it'd be p creepy, but we were good friends and it made me laugh, the absurd delivery of it. i dunno, context too, it was obv meant to be funny and weird.
xpost if the rest of my life was like work i wouldn't have any problems.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:30 (seven years ago)
something else to consider is a generational divide at work maybe? I'm 30 and have never worked a job for more than 2 years in a row, and most people my age or younger have more precarious work situations and aren't v likely to end up at the same place for long, building up solid work friendships or whatever. in that context the increasingly strict "don't comment on appearance at all ever in any circumstance" line makes sense to me
― Simon H., Monday, 8 January 2018 15:31 (seven years ago)
i think 2 years is quite a long time - i've been really close friends with colleagues in a job i was only in for 18 months. the older i get the more i tend to form friendships at work more quickly, in part due to being more calm about my ability, in part due to recognising the necessity of being friends with colleagues, regardless.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:33 (seven years ago)
I had a super close relationship with my boss. So same sex complimenting/sharing of tampons/complaining about having to poop, we were both fine with after we had established our working relationship after a period of time.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 15:35 (seven years ago)
i think 2 years is quite a long time
again, the *longest* I've worked at the same place. in my line of work, one-year contracts are the norm
― Simon H., Monday, 8 January 2018 15:36 (seven years ago)
Wait theres poop now!
When I've worked in places with a high churn of young staff that's where I've seen the most occurrence and inappropriateness level of interpersonal conduct. I'd tend towards thinking that age rather than length of term is a contributing factor.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 15:46 (seven years ago)
Every corporate office I have worked in, people obsess about the bathroom.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 16:08 (seven years ago)
I think we have threads tbh so I don't doubt u
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 16:14 (seven years ago)
the idea of wanting to making friends and (simultaneously) wanting to influence them is nagl tbh
personally i can pick up on this really quickly and i'm sure a lot of people can as well
it kind of makes you look psychotic or like a sociopath
― infinity (∞), Monday, 8 January 2018 17:41 (seven years ago)
I feel like the 'and' does not serve the simultaneous function but in any case this is merely a well-known phrase and not a parasol under which we all huddle
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:02 (seven years ago)
i mean it's a popular book on how to manipulate employees and customers
― infinity (∞), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:23 (seven years ago)
That is a certain fact
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:33 (seven years ago)
manipulate = being genuinely interested in people, smiling, remembering their name, being a good listener, talking about things that interest them and making them feel important? despicable.
― Mordy, Monday, 8 January 2018 18:49 (seven years ago)
Back to motive
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:51 (seven years ago)
Maybe a better way to frame the issue is to focus not on a set of behaviors, but on who in the workplace is expected to do the work of risk assessment and bear the consequences for any given office behavior, good or bad? Thinking aloud here, perhaps part of the problem is that men have historically be able to interact with women professionally without needing to spend much time considering the risks of their behavior towards women or worrying about any consequences from it, because that has fallen on the women involved. As a result, men don't see this as work that has to be done, an everyday task, while all the time women in professional spaces have been doing that work.
All social interaction involves mediation, and even the most comprehensive set of guidelines for office behavior will always require interpretation. Both of those things are ongoing labor that needs to be done, and the issue is who in the office is expected to do it. Focusing on an ideal set of guidelines that always lies just beyond the horizon is a way to avoid accepting that the work involved to solve this problem is ongoing, and in the meantime the status quo remains... women are doing most of this work.
In that sense, it's odd that men would demand a comprehensive set of guidelines for such labor before engaging with gender equality, when women have been expected to perform that labor without any guidelines from the moment they entered the workplace. And it isn't like men don't do this labor in other contexts; a lot of them have been managers and understand the work involved in supervising hierarchies and conflicts, or even just navigating complex social spaces they move through outside of work that have rules almost entirely unwritten.
So I guess there are men saying "come up with a set of rules I can follow at work, and I'll do the work of following them" while women are saying "coming up with the rules IS the work, and we would love it if you would at least do that work for your own behavior, especially *before* you decide to act". It's not about finding answers to scenarios that the rules don't cover. It's thinking, before you proceed in such a scenario, "The outcome here is simply not predictable. How will this affect my co-workers? Am I, myself, willing to accept the risk associated with this situation having an unknowable outcome? Will I own the consequences of what happened? Is it better to just shut up right now and avoid creating a lot of hassle for someone? Yeah, it probably is."
― erry red flag (f. hazel), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:55 (seven years ago)
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 8 January 2018 18:57 (seven years ago)
So I guess there are men saying "come up with a set of rules I can follow at work, and I'll do the work of following them" while women are saying "coming up with the rules IS the work, and we would love it if you would at least do that work for your own behavior, especially *before* you decide to act".
this is exactly why i found the disingenuousness of the original question extremely off-puttingdon't pretend you don't know how to not-harass people and then make me come up with ways a phantom clueless person can avoid harassing their coworkersthanks f hazel
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 January 2018 19:00 (seven years ago)
additionally, if it's about compliments, a compliment is a reflection of what you see and value about the person
A: You do good workvsB: Nice shoes
what does person A see? good workwhat does person B see? shoes
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 January 2018 19:01 (seven years ago)
Was person B wearing nice shoesIs it one or the otherIs this the only thing you ever say to person BHas person B done good work todayIs it your role to note person B's good work, if you even know of it
Etc
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 19:05 (seven years ago)
#teamWorkIsWork #teamLanaDelRay
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 8 January 2018 19:25 (seven years ago)
^^^OTM xpost a couple of people. I have even been telling this to my mother about how she interacts with my very young nieces. Please stop complimenting them on how pretty or cute they are are and start telling them they are smart or said something interesting or funny. There are so many other things to praise people on other than how they look. Everyone knows this but people are lazy in how they interact.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 19:35 (seven years ago)
― erry red flag (f. hazel), Monday, January 8, 2018 1:55 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is so on-point, I'm not sure what even needs to be said beyond it. so much of the hand-wringing you see about "rules" involves creating just another kind of imaginary boogeyman like the welfare queen or the Girl Who Cried Rape. like any guy is going to work with a woman, develop a pleasant professional level of banter with her, and then one day compliment her shoes or outfit and she's going to fly off the handle, report you to HR for sexual harassment and ruin your life. navigating this terrain seriously does not require more than a sliver of common sense. like, maybe don't make reference to a woman's appearance in a professional setting if it's the first time you've met her. but if you've worked with a woman for two years, five years, whatever, and you're on friendly terms, and one morning you say "that's a nice dress," I THINK you're gonna be just fine.
― evol j, Monday, 8 January 2018 19:46 (seven years ago)
and yeah, obviously, I'm working on the presumption here that you actually have conversations with these women and don't just lob sporadic compliments at them out of the blue.
― evol j, Monday, 8 January 2018 19:48 (seven years ago)
Our office has a yearly "most cheerful staff member" award that always seems to go to a female member of staff. We complain about it every year
many xps but lol u woz robbed
― kinder, Monday, 8 January 2018 19:53 (seven years ago)
xps sorry LL I was hopping on a bus and have gotten that example backasswards I think
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 8 January 2018 19:54 (seven years ago)
"this is so on-point, I'm not sure what even needs to be said beyond it."
Do you very often win hearts and minds with this type of rhetoric I dunno
absolutely booming post f. hazel
can't see your shoes soz
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 8 January 2018 20:25 (seven years ago)
Everyone otm about fhaz being otm. Nice work, everyone!
― Conic section rebellion 44 (in orbit), Monday, 8 January 2018 20:35 (seven years ago)
If there's a consensus on this thread, its that the sensitive souls of ILX have long concluded, probably long before Weinstein et al broke, that flirting at the job entails so much risk of embarrassment or miscommunication that we just don't. Prior to our current moment, workplace flirtation was increasingly limited to the insensitive and imprudent, ie, creeps. I expect Weinstein et al will accelerate this.
Maybe balancing all interests, that's the sort of world we want. One where only creeps flirt in the workplace, and hence anyone who is discomfited feels safe to immediately seek redress for their behavior. I still think its disingenuous to deny that this may have its own costs.
http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/09/ST-2014-09-24-never-married-01.png
― Sanpaku, Monday, 8 January 2018 21:13 (seven years ago)
what are those costs?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:15 (seven years ago)
Ogmor:
I don't think there is a clear distinction between career jobs and paying the bills jobs, or that it matters much in terms of whats appropriate.
I mean, if we're talking about the end of the behavioural spectrum where the absolute awful stuff happens - sexual assault, violence, etc - yeah I agree. The particular workplace in question doesn't make a difference there.
But man oh man. I've never really managed to get a 'career' of any sort going; with a couple of exceptions I've mostly worked insecure jobs in a selection of north west england's bargain basement call centres. No guarantee you'll still have a job on monday; the idea of career progression being just laughable; no-one working there because they want to; nothing enjoyable or exciting or creative, or even respectable, about the work. The framework of 'Appropriate professional conduct towards colleagues', that officialese which people often use in discussions like this thread, to try and parse rights and wrongs in the workplace ... it speaks to a different world entirely.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:19 (seven years ago)
― Sanpaku, Monday, January 8, 2018 4:13 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that is not what 'the sensitive souls of ILX' have long concluded in this thread, not at all. this is being disingenuous.
― Van Horn Street, Monday, 8 January 2018 21:29 (seven years ago)
This is a good article about the labor of managing unwanted comments or looks in the workplace. It's annoying and tiring. Also if your dating field is restricted to your workplace, try match.com. https://www.chronicle.com/article/The-MeToo-Movement-Isn-t/242179
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 21:33 (seven years ago)
xp to self
To put all of that more succinctly: 'Professional conduct' is a stick that only works if there's a carrot, and most people work in a job where there is no carrot; that is, it's a stick that only works on valued personnel who are pursuing good, rewarding careers. We need a different framework for shit jobs.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:34 (seven years ago)
Wha? People in shit jobs should also treat one another respectfully. Indeed perhaps moreso. WTF?
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:39 (seven years ago)
Like "being a decent human" is a pretty succulent carrot IMO
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:40 (seven years ago)
All the sensitive men who cannot possibly manage their workplace without the entitlement of being able to freely bestow a compliment on a woman's appearance. The struggle is real.
― Yerac, Monday, 8 January 2018 21:40 (seven years ago)
xps Oh yeah I don't say there's no need to treat one another respectfully. I just mean we should assert that need (necessity) using a framework that takes into account how real people actually feel, rather than what a professional ought to do?
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:41 (seven years ago)
Also, importantly, I realise my post there may look as if I'm arguing for employers not to have standards of professional conduct. I'm definitely not arguing that, I'm talking about how we parse this stuff and what language we use to do so
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:43 (seven years ago)
professionalism is a ruse in respectable environments though. people are shitty everywhere
― kolakube (Ross), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:44 (seven years ago)
that's in response to cardamon, even when the "carrot" is there, it doesn't change people's inherent shittiness
― kolakube (Ross), Monday, 8 January 2018 21:46 (seven years ago)
To all those who work in harsh "survival of the shittiest" type environments, where continuity of work is precarious at best and the pay is shit. I salute you, and try not to let the rotten game change you - even though it inevitably does :(
― calzino, Monday, 8 January 2018 21:54 (seven years ago)
I'm confused about what point you're making cardamon, I'm thinking now I got the wrong end of the stick but I'm still not sure in what way
― ogmor, Monday, 8 January 2018 22:00 (seven years ago)
I mean I'm not making much more than a pedantic point (and making it late in the thread too). The sort of judgments we make about what good and bad workplace behaviour is, should take into account the sharp differences between, say, working as a barrister and working in burger king - 'the workplace' is not just one type of place. But temper that with some behaviours being always wrong.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 22:11 (seven years ago)
I think you all look really hot today btw
― treeship 2, Monday, 8 January 2018 22:25 (seven years ago)
it doesn't seem that, say, the acceptability of flirting will depend on the workplace so much as the individual, unless we're going to say "toughen up, this is burger king!"
― ogmor, Monday, 8 January 2018 22:37 (seven years ago)
Sure. And 'toughen up, this is burger king' is like the worst result we could get here.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 22:48 (seven years ago)
I would say re: flirting that in call-centres, my experience is that the youngsters will: clock off, go on their break, head to break room or smoking area and engage in extremely crude ritual (that it's a ritual is key) flirting banter. Tits and dicks and shagging. Booming laughter. This is not always very nice to overhear. Some of what gets said is pretty concerning. Had anyone come out with it at one of my more 'professional' jobs I might even have complained ... It's just that also there's this dose of human warmth/relief mixed in there as well - to a large extent it feels justified by the crudity and aggression of the customers (who blast themselves into your ear one after another) and as a relief from the awfulness of the job in general.
So there's a tentative feeling that some things might more or less 'go' in some workplaces, and more or less not 'go' in others - but not to the extent of hand-waving toxic bad behaviour or bullying or harassment in a job just because a job is shit
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 22:57 (seven years ago)
Again, as well as that kind of flirting banter or whatever we want to call it being ritualised (and so having less implication that this person is actually intending to have sex with this other person) it's also a joke that everybody's in on, taking us back to the idea that it's largely to do with individuals and what those individuals are comfortable with
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 23:01 (seven years ago)
cardamon i relate to the work experience you mentioned in xp
last job i worked mostly with males and there was high turn over. We rarely hired women because some of the guys were such pigs that they openly admitted it would be problematic if women heard the dirty banter that was going on. Any woman that was hired was deemed to have been okay to handle that type of shit, which was truly awful. as cardamon says my colleagues felt like their bad behavior was justified by the stress of dealing with asshole clients.
i tried to stay away from it mostly, iirc one guy jokingly called me a feminist
― kolakube (Ross), Monday, 8 January 2018 23:09 (seven years ago)
When you're young, it's all about keeping up with the guy with the biggest mouth, whether you agree with him or not. It's only when you're older that you start to realise ignoring him and staying the hell away was an option all along.
― Chuck_Tatum, Monday, 8 January 2018 23:16 (seven years ago)
Although in the example I'm thinking of these are young women as well as young men - but indeed there is the question (that I can't answer because not a woman) how really okay the women are with it
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Monday, 8 January 2018 23:20 (seven years ago)
Thankyou, f.hazel for highlighting the role of emotional labor in all this. Yes yes yes. Why do we always have to do all the work here?
Also sanpaku why did you post that graph about less adults marrying? What the feck has that to do with workplace appropriate behaviours?
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 8 January 2018 23:55 (seven years ago)
If this current public attention to acceptable and unacceptable behavior results in a clearer framework, then good. If it just makes social connection more vexing, we'll learn about it from the tallies of solitary never marrieds, birthrates, and suicides.― Sanpaku, Sunday, 7 January 2018 00:40 (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Sanpaku, Sunday, 7 January 2018 00:40 (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:34 (seven years ago)
Righto. Though he posted the graph after saying "Maybe balancing all interests, that's the sort of world we want. One where only creeps flirt in the workplace, and hence anyone who is discomfited feels safe to immediately seek redress for their behavior. I still think its disingenuous to deny that this may have its own costs."
It felt vaguely MGTOW and that shit I will not stand for.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:37 (seven years ago)
not disagreeing
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:40 (seven years ago)
also agree per f hazel's post that in sanpaku's desire for a "framework" there is a bit of "somebody needs to sort this out *taps large pile of toxic paperwork on desk with forefinger* - sensitive souls? i'm looking at you here"
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:43 (seven years ago)
lol so men will "go their own way" (i looked it up) and society will cease to flourish? is this a joke?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:47 (seven years ago)
yeah idg that logic at all O_o
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:49 (seven years ago)
Haha sadly no.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:49 (seven years ago)
We have to bargain with our humanity ladies. Do we want to be respected in the workplace or do we want civilization to end?
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:51 (seven years ago)
i find myself wondering who would care if a portion of toxic men unwilling to stop imposing their will on others floated away on a river of tears to the childless island of their choiceif this is the terrifying new math, i'm willing to risk it. bye felicias! (pardon my glibness)
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:53 (seven years ago)
i don't wish suicide on anyone but saying that men will commit suicide before they stop workplace harassment is utterly absurd
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:54 (seven years ago)
It's petulant knee jerk reactionism to having societal restrictions. Men should be ashamed of their past behaviors. I'm ashamed of the times I didn't say anything or went along with it to my own detriment.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:57 (seven years ago)
This conversation has gotten so weird.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:01 (seven years ago)
This conversation has gotten really good.
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:05 (seven years ago)
http://screenprism.com/assets/img/article/The_Conversation-saxophone.jpg
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:07 (seven years ago)
I'm cool with civilization ending.
― tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:10 (seven years ago)
Same. This thread not helping to persuade me otherwise.
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:12 (seven years ago)
you were trying to get your work done because you come to work to make money and the asshole men could not plant their seeds in you and committed suicide. sounds ok.
― assawoman bay (harbl), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:25 (seven years ago)
Yeah, I mean women have no responsibility to coddle men in the workplace so that they don't commit suicide. That is not in any HR manual.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:32 (seven years ago)
What
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:36 (seven years ago)
I thought this was about telling a coworker their necklace was groovy but it spiralled into this extremely dark place.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:37 (seven years ago)
Obviously women aren’t obliged to reciprocate flirting and dudes should take a hint. But they should live and learn. Not kill themselves.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:38 (seven years ago)
Interesting thing happened today at work, there was a really beautiful young woman there today, and a woman I was working with said - and I absolutely knew she was going to say this - "She's very pretty" and I thought, "Errrrrrr, what do I say?" So, I said, trying to pretend I hadn't really noticed, "What? Yeah, she is".
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:40 (seven years ago)
Say, “ok”
― Jeff, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:42 (seven years ago)
Some people are hot.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:49 (seven years ago)
True, but it's a minefield out there.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:51 (seven years ago)
You think it was a trap?
― albvivertine, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:54 (seven years ago)
good looking ppl are crisis actors
― Joan Digimon (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:55 (seven years ago)
(xp) No, not at all.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 01:56 (seven years ago)
my stock reaction to pretty much anything my coworkers tell me is "oh, hey, well, you know..." *trails off*
― (the blues version in his Broadway show) (crüt), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 02:01 (seven years ago)
And then you wink suggestively, right?
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 02:02 (seven years ago)
treeship yr not being very helpful with yr interjections here, maybe stop.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 02:44 (seven years ago)
― Sanpaku, Monday, January 8, 2018 4:13 PM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I keep thinking about that post. Now, I am concluding that if the cost of less harm to woman is the shaming of sexual creeps unto changing their behaviour then ... sign me in for that. This is getting close to 'poor racists they are being 'marginalized' territory.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 04:48 (seven years ago)
Not maybe, ~balancing all interests, this is definitively the world that we want.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 04:49 (seven years ago)
Of all fucking people
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 04:52 (seven years ago)
what do you mean?
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 04:54 (seven years ago)
Hey guess what kids If you can’t get it together enough to meet your favorite person at the pub, the club, the study group or the internet dating hub, you can just die alone! There is officially no appropriate way to say nice things to a colleague that you are attracted to. This conversation couldn’t be more useless. I’m off. Yes silby, it’s past my fucking bedtime.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 05:01 (seven years ago)
it shits me no end that this is suddenly a problem nowit’s never been okcertain subset of guys just thought that their casual sexism is ok because it’s never been questioned. it’s never been a requirement to think about the recipient as anything more than tits in a dress, up for a laugh, etc. but NOW oh suddenly they want ~the world~ they want to be seen and heard and treated with respect and PFFFT WELL I DONT BLOODY KNOW WHATS HAPPENING it’s really depressing to see so much handwringing over what i thought/assumed was just basic human decency. i mean it. i get seriously gobsmacked that this is confusing.
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 05:42 (seven years ago)
honestly i think the 'what is socially appropriate anymore omg' is not really the issue. i mean it is to the extent that men seem to want a clear answer about how gender and sex work in everyday situations, which ironically is usually a thing that men who are cut from a certain cloth of traditional masculinity want, a clear answer about something. but like most things, gender, sex and desire are changing really fast, so the key to me seems not to bemoan the change and act entitled to a world that doesn't exist anymore but to .. observe the change and accept it. try locating desire outside of objectification for once. or be as boring as possible like everyone else. who wants to have an "interesting" conversation with a coworker anyways?
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 06:05 (seven years ago)
lol crutotm
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 08:49 (seven years ago)
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 02:44 (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Quick everyone to the fourth thread
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:07 (seven years ago)
I'm sure this was a joke, and I'm sure saying this makes me an awful snowflake juice warrior or something but the underlying idea behind this kind of thought, joke or not joke, is part of the problem. and however hardwired people want to believe libido might be doesn't cut it really, because being human beings in a society has always been about evolving and adapting our alleged innate impulses. there's literally nothing natural, and literally no reproductive imperative that trumps our desire(?)/right(?)/need(?) to create a mutually supportive species-culture that strives to operate against objectification. if we need to find new ways of being nice to one another then great, because it's pretty clear that the old ways of doing it are just another reification of people as commodities.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:21 (seven years ago)
like, as a whole we've tried to learn that hitting other people over the head with a stick because we want their stuff is not socially productive, now maybe we can turn to other ways of cooperating with one another
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:23 (seven years ago)
our desire(?)/right(?)/need(?) to create a mutually supportive species-culture that strives to operate against objectification
I think this will break down into something different and less stark as people's thinking moves in this direction & clarifies, but I'll save it for the fifth thread
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:44 (seven years ago)
https://i.imgur.com/M23FwP7.png
an ilx where this isn't one of the first replies itt is an ilx I don't recognise
― thirst trap your hare (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:50 (seven years ago)
xp
I was definitely being utopian/futurist but yeah movement in a direction. and there are people always want to move in counter-directions. and at some point movements converge or crash, and you have to decide how you respond to the counter-movements.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 09:51 (seven years ago)
yeah I just don't think objectification per se is the big bad, but working all that out should be juicy and productive
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 10:01 (seven years ago)
I think there's a form of objectification, a lot of moral and social judgement that still happens on the most superficial level that we need to learn to get over. I know that HR document upthread was from the worst place but it's an extreme form of something that lurks at the fringes of a lot of our consciousness
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 10:07 (seven years ago)
if there are different types of objectification & they aren't all wicked or avoidable then it's worth working out exactly where things are going wrong
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 10:23 (seven years ago)
I don’t think being attracted to someone, or even noting this to another colleague — i.e. “she’s really pretty” — is onjectifying. Gauche, sure, and not something I would do, but I don’t think that, in itself, is disrespectful, or diminishing that person’s value as a human, or anything else. It’s ok if we’re moving toward stricter norms of conduct to prevent, once and for all, unwanted advances, but I find it depressing to assume there is something disgusting or dehumanizing underneath the impulse to want to flirt with someone. More like, work is disgusting and dehumanizing.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:17 (seven years ago)
Think it, don’t say it. What purpose does it serve to tell a coworker that another one is pretty?
― Jeff, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:19 (seven years ago)
All my posts are coming from that place. I don’t want the workplace to be a libidinous atmosphere — it probably shouldn’t be — but I also don’t want to retroactively define banal comments as creepy. I’ve had a superior say I “looked hot” before; I don’t think she even thought about whether it was appropriate. (Again, I know the dynamic is different because of gender, etc, still)
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:21 (seven years ago)
It doesn’t serve a purpose but dumb behavior is different than sexist behavior sliding toward abusiveness! Xp
People aren’t perfect, they’re idiots
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:22 (seven years ago)
I think it's about what Hazel mentioned uprhread about emotional work. Flirting may be well-intentioned and innocent, sure, but it's the flirtee that has to deal with the consequences.
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:23 (seven years ago)
(A few xposts)
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 11:24 (seven years ago)
t2 are you nuts? telling a colleague how "hot" a co-worker is (or whatever - "dude you notice? no ring..." ) is textbook objectifying. every time someone (always a man) has said this sort of thing to me it has been mortifying and has made me think wayyy less of that person
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:10 (seven years ago)
Again, I wouldn’t do it, but I think it’s mostly unprofessional and uncomfortable. Maybe you should get fired for it. But I think they’re mostly just vocalizing a thought that, as a though, isn’t problematic. When I am attracted to someone it’s not because I see them as an object it’s because I like them.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:20 (seven years ago)
I would like to defend treeships right to state this as clumsily as he is doing while distancing myself from it but that is almost definitely thread 12 stuff
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:22 (seven years ago)
As usual I’m mostly interested in how things are being framed. I guess I take exception to some of the framing here which led people to react so aggressively to Sanapku’s rather banal questions.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:22 (seven years ago)
itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one
― omar little, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:24 (seven years ago)
That was thread 1 tbf
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:25 (seven years ago)
Lol that seems so different. The example tom d posted was a woman pointing out a new coworker was pretty.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:27 (seven years ago)
Pointing that out is pretty creepy. There are times it's going to be allowable depending on how well you know the other person, how lecherously you say it, a hundred things. I don't think any of those times are at work tbh.
Id note that I was against overuse of 'creepy' as a shaming device only a week ago but it is a word that applies to a lot of things quite fairly.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:31 (seven years ago)
Why am I going to read that whole thread. Why.
― Jeff, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:31 (seven years ago)
Cos youre creepy
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:32 (seven years ago)
I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream and since I’m not even arguing that the stricter norms are “bad” there is no point. Have a good morning everyone.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:32 (seven years ago)
🖼an ilx where this isn't one of the first replies itt is an ilx I don't recognise
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:34 (seven years ago)
No, she wasn't a coworker, that would be creepy.
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:34 (seven years ago)
I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream
Well it's a new thread for you innit didn't I say that
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:36 (seven years ago)
I just remember the old days when there would be clusterfucks about whether you’d rather have been a beatle or have walked on the moon (past perfect was integral to the meaning of the question)
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:37 (seven years ago)
Present perfect rather
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:38 (seven years ago)
Thered have to be a thread for each half of that q now I spose
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:39 (seven years ago)
still recall tombot's 'cows are beautiful, delicious animals' comic fondly
― #TeamHailing (imago), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:41 (seven years ago)
xp As long as you recognise that there's two different branches of discussion here - the one you're on regarding the state of the soul of the thinker, and the one the rest of us are on regarding what effect it has once it gets said.
― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:42 (seven years ago)
I’m going to leave this thread though because my perspective on this is not in the ilx mainstream and since I’m not even arguing that the stricter norms are “bad” there is no point.
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:43 (seven years ago)
I've learnt a lot from this thread, personally.
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:51 (seven years ago)
I can't work out who tombot is criticising there tbh
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:56 (seven years ago)
I did go a bit banaka for a while
I don't know what tips anybody could dispense tho, I think the women who've posted have laid out some reasonably clear guidelines
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:57 (seven years ago)
People who use telepathy with their nucleus acumbens.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:58 (seven years ago)
Xp
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 12:59 (seven years ago)
point was tho Tombot that 95% of living in any human society in 2018 involves not being at the mercy of your nuclear bombadoms
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 13:02 (seven years ago)
retweets are not endorsements https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Discontents
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 13:05 (seven years ago)
Alright, it’s definitely not ok to talk about someone’s ”bombadoms” much less call them “nuclear”
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 13:05 (seven years ago)
cheerfully withdrawn
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 13:08 (seven years ago)
Accepted. The complaint’s been removed from your file.
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 13:11 (seven years ago)
I'm not saying this is the correct way of parsing your discussion – it's a lot more complicated than that, obviously – but looking at it through the lens of, say, mainstream French culture, makes for a mildly surreal experience. Not that cultural relativism resolves or even explains the issue at hand by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that it's hard not to notice that absolutist puritanism is a more readily accepted position in the English-speaking world and that part of it has to do with historically ingrained attitudes towards sexuality in general (incidentally, two pieces – one an open letter cosigned by 100 women, the other written by a woman writer – were just published in Le Monde this morning, alerting to the pitfalls of puritanism even as they acknowledge and welcome the necessity of a libération de la parole post-Weinstein). Make of this admittedly simplistic take what you will.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:02 (seven years ago)
Thread twenty thousand four hundred and twelve. Take a ticket.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:17 (seven years ago)
If one feels obligated to give praise at work, make it work related. Tell them they finished a project faster than expected and well executed, tell them you've received very good feedback on their performance, that they've done a very good job learning a new activity. There are so many compliments to be given that has nothing to do with a person's appearance. Women want to succeed at their job, no matter what the job is.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:26 (seven years ago)
TBH that advice reads quite patronisingly.
― Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:29 (seven years ago)
Does it? I am trying to make advice that men who seem to have trouble with this can follow. Like, I don't wear my wedding ring to work and don't discuss my personal life unless I am outside friends with a person. I literally do not want to be bothered with any non work related compliments a man decides to bestow on me (it's strange and awkward) and I don't want to feel like I can't be friendly in fear of sending wrong signals. Work is work.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:37 (seven years ago)
I'm with whoever said that the women posting their experiences and reactions to this thread are providing the closest anyone will ever have to 'the rules'
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:38 (seven years ago)
I think men can take some patronizing from a woman. They’ve been giving it for awhile, they can deal with getting it.
― Jeff, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:40 (seven years ago)
Ah yeah, men
Thread into th
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:41 (seven years ago)
I think work related praise is one area where that distinction Cardamon was making between career jobs and paying-the-bills jobs might be significant? I've been in workplaces where I'm pretty confident that absolutely no-one, male or female, was taking "pride" in their work and congratulating a colleague on their work would seem condescending
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:42 (seven years ago)
Indeed if anything in the shit jobs I'm thinking of the correct thing to do is to commiserate and laugh off the work with your colleague/mate rather than praise
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:45 (seven years ago)
I don't know. I've worked in some service related grunt jobs on the side and for some people that is their career job. Like older women who entered the work force late or support their entire family. They definitely take pride in their work. But again, there are so many variables on this. Just don't treat women as if they don't have these complicated internal lives that we are all getting off on someone telling us that our hair looks pretty is going to brighten our day.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:47 (seven years ago)
This also
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:49 (seven years ago)
I've had terrible jobs where it was perfectly reasonable to compliment someone on being able to cope with the drudgery of it. Congratulations on surviving this shithole with most of your sanity intact. Wow, I'm impressed with your equilibrium. Your tolerance of stupidity and abuse is impressive.
Even without going there, there should be plenty of innocuous banter to be had. "Hey, those fake flowers on your cubicle are nice and cheery" or "That's a fun Chthulhu bobblehead you have there" or "I like your Ghost World figurine" or "Hey, a Minor Threat button! Been a while since I've seen one of those." Honestly even "Hey, I also like that type of yogurt."
But this is irrelevant to the larger discussion. Honestly cannot see why a shitty job would need to have different levels of tolerance for creepiness / harassment / abuse.
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:55 (seven years ago)
FTR I have it installed in my head that to enter a workplace is to enter a place where it matters what other people are comfortable with, part of 'the job' is always to try and match/mirror this - Yerac's post about just wanting work to be about work, and various other accounts people have told me, become like, part of a dossier of evidence about what people might want that I take into work with me
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:57 (seven years ago)
Ye Mad Puffin I would concur that harassment and abuse are harassment and abuse and are not okay anywhere
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:58 (seven years ago)
I think the shitty jobs are the worst when it comes to protecting women from harassment. It's easier to just try to find another job if you have that option.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 14:59 (seven years ago)
I feel all of this potentially sounds creepy af though, depending on the context, e.g. if it was to a woman by one of the bad at eye contact, lip-licking, unusual-or-unpleasant-prominent-physical-characteristics guys that HR article described, this is the whole problem surely?
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:00 (seven years ago)
I definitely think the lack of the pretense of professionalism at some shit/poorly paid jobs can be heartening and builds solidarity, but there is so much grey area as to what a shit job is and I still feel a small swell of satisfaction thinking back to how sincerely impressed the assistant manager at kwik save was by the job I did on the sweets aisle.
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:01 (seven years ago)
xp But also, distinguishing 'creepiness' from harassment, I sort of feel like harassment is the word for stuff that is definitely wrong (and subject to firing or legal action), whereas creepiness is ambiguous and er I suppose 'personally and culturally relative' ... obviously no-one wants to be creepy or crept-on but people come back with different definitions and judgments on what that creepiness would entail? Like mostly itt we disagree with that HR document posted above where it listed unusual appearance as something 'creepy'.
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:04 (seven years ago)
Then also remember some of these jobs like serving, bartending, cashiering, telemarketing, women are also getting harassed by the customers, but there it's in your best interest to just smile.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:06 (seven years ago)
I agree it varied, but complimenting someone for (e.g) being good at stacking tins of beans feels potentially offensive for similar reasons to complimenting someone on their haircut, i.e. most ppl would like to think that there is more to them than that? (though obv compliments on physical stuff have the added problem of maybe making ppl worry that you're going to hit on you)
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:07 (seven years ago)
I think 'assistant manager' is key there perhaps, like my experience was that I'd appreciate it if a superior took note of my hard work and skill, but if someone at the same level as me did the same it'd be more wtf
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:10 (seven years ago)
i have long said that the word "creepy" is not doing us any favors hereit covers too broad a range of potential behaviors to be meaningful on its own, without further elaboration
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:22 (seven years ago)
its connotation is "bad, unwanted" afaict?
creep·yˈkrēpē/Submitadjectiveinformalcausing an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:23 (seven years ago)
xp to soref: iirc my colleagues gave me the deprecating/semi-ironic "heard about the job you did on sweets!" thing. I was pretty happy to chat about almost anything to keep my mind off the shop radio tbh. I just think there are no hard rules for navigating this stuff, no one can speak for everyone and any imperative is a blunt tool which someone will raise an eyebrow at
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:27 (seven years ago)
I see your point upthread, soref, but it rather muddies the waters.
If the Sanpakus of the world are like "wow, I can't even say 'nice haircut,'" lots of the advice is "don't compliment coworkers on their appearance ever." "Find something else to talk about."
If then the advice evolves into "don't even say 'nice Cezanne poster' or 'nice Brienne of Tarth bobblehead' if you're going to be a creepazoid about it," I can see why someone might think the goalposts keep moving.
"Don't say anything nice, unless you can manage to do it in a non-creepy way" is the same as basically telling people who are bad at stuff "get good at stuff."
I dunno. Honestly I was just hunting for ways a call center drone could possibly compliment another call center drone without going into no-go appearance/clothing zones.
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:27 (seven years ago)
how about make conversation that is not a compliment? the need for compliments is actually quite low when it comes to regular everyday workplace conversation.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:30 (seven years ago)
true
― and she could see an earmuff factory (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:32 (seven years ago)
it's a good starting place for not making people feel uneaseif that is your ultimate problem
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:34 (seven years ago)
I literally started watching terrible reality tv for one job so I would have something to discuss with people to pass the time.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:39 (seven years ago)
reading over Sanpaku's comments on the other thread, it seemed like he was worried about what counts as flirting vs. other kinds of (positive, I gather) interactions. Flirting, it seems to me, is unserious courtship, a testing of the waters, so to speak. Is it genuinely unclear when an interaction aims to court? Is it genuinely unclear when you *intend* to court?
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:40 (seven years ago)
get some ladies talking on the foods they used to eat as kids and they will talk for 3-5 lunch breaks there is a world of possibility in conversation topics
part of the problem is the widely swallowed advice that if you don't know what to say to a person, give them a compliment because everyone loves compliments and everyone loves to talk about themselves. this is untrue and bad advice. especially in the workplace.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:41 (seven years ago)
also i will note that the hair compliment example he chose to use from me was 1) not at the workplace 2) mentioned quite a while ago! 3) was not interpreted as menacing in a sexual way but as scripted behavior that misread its recipient. lots of noise interfering with that message. if i happen to be sensitive to reading people's messages with a degree of skepticism, i blame a lifetime of being a woman and thinking about this stuff literally all the time.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:45 (seven years ago)
soref that HR document was horrendous and wrong. the reason LL is saying that "creepy" is unhelpful here is exactly because it's used to judge aspects of people that are not within their control - and there are usages of "creepy" that are plain rude and bullying in themselves. the flipside of this conversation about how we interact with people at work is that most people will make judgements about us and some of those judgements will be unfair, uncalled for or mean. nobody can control how another person responds to them. by thinking about the interplay between how intimately we know a person and what our relationship to them is - working, social, whatever - you get a sense of what kind of conversation should be ok. I think a good rule is, if you're not a friend, I won't ask you personal questions or make personal comments, male or female doesn't matter. if I say something innocuous and somebody responds badly because they think I talk strangely or they don't like the way I look then tbh I'm just gonna move along and talk to somebody who's more polite.
― not raving but droning (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:45 (seven years ago)
Rule 8b. A compliment paid to a co-worker should only ever be an end in itself, e.g. if you genuinely and spontaneously dig the person's bobblehead and say so. Not a means to an end, however innocuous you think that end is, e.g. "brightening her day."
― mick signals, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:50 (seven years ago)
I think ppl are in general more forgiving than the more socially anxious among us fear. everyone I know has said something awkward/inappropriate/rude/offensive at some point and it doesn't change how much I like them or w/e. ppl are quieter about and less confident in their judgements offline, & most will cut ppl who seem awkward some slack (& sometimes ppl exploit that & sometimes you can't tell &c. &c.)
― ogmor, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:55 (seven years ago)
'creepy' is the new 'hipster'
― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 15:57 (seven years ago)
Last few posts starting from LL on all otm and get thread back on track imo
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 17:43 (seven years ago)
compliments are weird for me, from men or women. i find them kind of stressful. my inner Australian just wants to shut it down. it was years of being in an American office before i stopped doing this: “your hair looks nice” “ha! god i need a haircut so bad”“cute shoes” “what? these shitkickers? lol”
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 17:56 (seven years ago)
I like when I'm wearing a cool shirt and people tell me it's a cool shirt
― mh, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 20:49 (seven years ago)
although it'd be nice if they started a fresh pot of coffee instead of complimenting my shirt while finishing off the current pot
truth bomb
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:00 (seven years ago)
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, January 9, 2018 3:30 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this times a million, thread should've been locked after this (if not way before). worst thread i've read in years (and that's saying something). it's getting really embarrassing to read the oblique "hey its not flirting but can we not compliment a woman who is working, what's a guy to do, where's the guuuuuuide" takes anbd persistence itt.
i mean, what is there to say? it's all been said already in this thread, about this subject. i don't get why the mice keep running this treadmill. unless it's because they've got their answers, but... won't leave alone what is really inexcusable behaviour.
what is the point of this thread, at this point? where do people want it to go?
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:33 (seven years ago)
I find it difficult to square the argument that this is all very straightforward and anyone who claims to be confused is just disingenuously looking to excuse bad behavior with the argument that there can never be clear rules about what is an isn't acceptable because it's all very complex and subjective, don't these contradict each other?
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:41 (seven years ago)
it's extremely straightforward: unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional.
― mh, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:44 (seven years ago)
^^ which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:47 (seven years ago)
xp I agree with that, but the conversation itt seemed to be broader than "should you comment on a co-worker's appearance y/n", if it was just that then yes we probably could have sorted it by now (but still, y'know, who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular)
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:51 (seven years ago)
"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but "unless you have a personal rapport with a coworker, don't comment on their physical appearance in any way. and if you do, keep it professional" is basically "it's inappropriate except in situations where it's appropriate" which isn't much help?
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:53 (seven years ago)
Performing your resolution of this stuff such that whatever outlook you have personally found to be the gospel truth has to be completely and repeatedly vindicated and vocally supported by all at the risk of a bout of evermore ridiculous ilx shaming is the worst trend
It's bad.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:53 (seven years ago)
Perhaps it just spun off too forced and aggro from the Weinstein thread, ie. got off on the wrong foot, even though it's worth of discussion on its own. I know the thread title changed but my bookmarks seem not to care and make it about Sanpaku every single time thread's updated. Doesn't help.
But I don't see a broader conversation at all any more. I just see people - men - rehashing their 'but' over everything that's being said. Stuff like this: "who gets to define what a "rapport" is, who gets to define what is and isn't professional? that seems pretty circular". Or this: ""don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"
Who gets to define what a rapport is? Who came up with the word trees for trees? What is time? Seems pretty circular to me... "But" indeed. As long as people keep talking and not listening, everything is circular in the end, rendering it all meaningless. Good luck with that newfound wisdom. The women on this thread have said so many true, real things that keep getting buried under "but", "yes but what about" shit.
*removes bookmark*
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:04 (seven years ago)
if you're comfortable asking about their kids, whether they mowed the lawn this weekend, etc. then you might be cool with a compliment. if you don't partake in small talk, you have no rapport. and that stuff is part of defining how much of the non-work world you're comfortable with sharing, and how much you're comfortable hearing about. it's not circular, it's a process, and it's nuanced -- if you can't distinguish between someone who cares about your response and someone who's just being polite, then you need to examine that
and by keep it professional, I mean -- if it's the middle of a meeting and you're not partaking in small talk, don't transition from talking about sales quotas to "whoa cool tie you're wearing"
― mh, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:04 (seven years ago)
"don't comment on a co-worker's appearance, at all" seems a-ok a rule to live by, but"
just to be clear, what I meant by this is that erring on the side of caution and taking a policy of never talking about a co-worker's appearance 100% of the time is a good idea imo, it's what I do myself, it's what I would recommend others do if they asked me. But if someone starts outlining the situations in which it *is* ok, it seems fair to say if you think that their outlines are actually indistinct, especially if they are insisting it's all v straightforward and you're lying or not listening if you claim otherwise?
― soref, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:14 (seven years ago)
I think one of the main problems with the "whoa how can I understand the rules if everything is so vague" argument is that it plays to the idea that a rigid structure of rules is possible. Even if it were, no set of rules is all-encompassing. It's all about context, interpretation, and the ability to communicate freely. If you really think this is all circular, welcome to the world! Communication isn't something you arrive at, it's an ongoing process and ever-changing.
If you don't want to keep track of what kind of communication is appropriate, and don't want to cooperate with other humans to figured it out, then give yourself a more stringent set of boundaries
― mh, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:17 (seven years ago)
tbh the reason i am participating in this thread is because i was shocked to find my out-of-context hair anecdote being discussed in the weinstein thread as some sort of example of oversensitivity and it pissed me off
all the buts in the world aren't going to give you permission to shower anyone with unwanted attention just stop it and the problem is solved; accept that you may make people uncomfortable if you continue to show them unwanted attention
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:36 (seven years ago)
which is what several women have already expressed, repeatedly, in this thread. and yet it still drags on...
LOL welcome to being a woman every day, LBI :/ This is why we are fed up with the emotional work. "Help us out here!" *offers help* "no, you arent listening, help us OUT here dammit"
Urgh.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:48 (seven years ago)
Can't remember ever feeling it so clearly and on the nose - you just being ignored and having the same thing come up like groundhog day - on here before like on this thread, yeah :-/
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 22:51 (seven years ago)
It's almost like the men who make excuses about why catcalling random women on the street is acceptable.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 23:09 (seven years ago)
Will this board ever again (if it ever did) change one person's mind about anything or will it be an unending story of ppl- on every side of every issue- deciding any given thread only exists for them to impart their perfect wisdom to idiots and subsequently frustratedly describe any discussion that does not follow whatever narrative was prior anointed in advance as these idiots not. getting. it.
I don't believe this thread was ever an advice thread fwiw. Or at least not just that, perhaps. Certainly not at the expense of discussion. I don't believe that anyone signed up to dutifully receive a set curriculum from a set few sources of defined and agreed authority, as if there is the right answer out there to mark against.
speaking of dissent, disagreement, diversion as if it is a case of naughty children veering from a lecture that anyone here was asked to come in and give is a bizarre impulse imo.
And tbh it is also a misrepresentation of this thread to label it as a single discussion with one outcome of one strong trend of agreement. You could focus on any one of ten different viewpoints given, some more strongly generally agreed with and some less so. Choosing to set out a stall of opposition against whichever best suits your agenda as if it were a consensus or representative of the entire thread is just strawman stuff.
If there's a 'thread opinion' it seems to be 'dont flirt at work. Don't comment on personal appearance of you have no relationship that has established it's ok that you do this'.
If a few ppl are either objecting or delving further into boundaries here then imo that's valid to do so without them becoming facsimiles for every overstepped boundary that can be recalled and recounted.
Thread 100000000
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 23:49 (seven years ago)
Booming
― treeship 2, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 23:54 (seven years ago)
Yes. And humbling, as a deems does. I for one shan't be in the way of any discussion (except any opinion tryna move the 'don't flirt at work' goalposts obv).
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 00:23 (seven years ago)
Dude yesterday you said that the mildly contrarian opinions expressed in this thread made you want human civilization to end
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 00:37 (seven years ago)
Yesterday you were treeship #1 and wanted to bruteforce an ilx-quit and failed miserably and here you are again, "dude".
Still stand by my desire for the end of human civilization (it's easy if we try), but I'm perfectly ok with saying (and meaning) Deems has a valid point. Which takes nothing away from what I've expressed on here earlier, rather - hopefully - opens the way to a better conversation, instead of perpetually hitting the same wall.
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 00:57 (seven years ago)
Why would you hope for the end of civilization? Ya no thanks to that nihilist racket
― kolakube (Ross), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 00:58 (seven years ago)
And I say that as someone who likes your posts LBI
― kolakube (Ross), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 00:59 (seven years ago)
tbh without the rule of law things may be even worse
― mh, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:01 (seven years ago)
Wasn't entirely serious, Ross, though a chunk of it every now and then, yes (I don't like it either). I just hope this conversation can move forward, finally. Being called upon yesterdays posts is a game I don't like playing. What I said earlier doesn't even contradict what I said tonight, as treezy will have ye believe, but I do appreciate Deems' sincere effort to push things forward, and support that. 'Cause there's no other way than that, forward. (for civilization also tbh)
― ♫ very clever with maracas.jpg ♫ (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:15 (seven years ago)
cheers!!
― kolakube (Ross), Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:23 (seven years ago)
Catherine Deneuve is Sanpaku
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/09/catherine-deneuve-men-should-be-free-hit-on-women-harvey-weinstein-scandal
“As women we do not recognise ourselves in this feminism, which beyond denouncing the abuse of power takes on a hatred of men and of sexuality.”They insisted that women were “sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack.”
They insisted that women were “sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack.”
from another AFP article:
Some women who were strong enough to demand equal pay, it claimed, would "not be traumatised forever by a fondler on the metro", even if it is a crime, preferring to see it as a "non-event".
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:30 (seven years ago)
c’mon we’re all learning day by day and I don’t think knocking S down is going to fix anything
― mh, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:42 (seven years ago)
yeah sorry it's unfair to Sanpaku, Deneuve is a truly horrible person.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 01:52 (seven years ago)
Really, I was just wondering aloud whether we really wanted a world were everyone was like me. Not bothering with social engagement IRL because a wide variety of reasons, but including the risk of embarassment or inadvertently offending others. We see a further of countries further along this path than the U.S. Everyone around me is a total strangerEveryone avoids me like a psyched lone-ranger Everyone.
― Sanpaku, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 02:05 (seven years ago)
fuck it.. a further of a few
I don't think this is a necessary end for society. I wouldn't be surprised if it might require some acceptance of embarassing self-revelations in everyday life, some which verge into flirtation.
― Sanpaku, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 02:08 (seven years ago)
all engagement with others is a cycle of embarrassment and small offenses, but the point is you learn how to err in small ways and react. life without any failure is complete inaction imo
― mh, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 03:39 (seven years ago)
This is right on point <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace">
"Lisa comes in for an interview. All the interviewers judge her objectively, based on her qualifications and the candor of her responses. This leaves her so confused that, on the way out of the office, she accidentally walks into traffic and dies."
― Yerac, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 13:44 (seven years ago)
Arg it's too early. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/examples-of-toxic-femininity-in-the-workplace
― Yerac, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 13:45 (seven years ago)
Love the idea this board was ever about changing the minds of ppl. If anything it was so we could pass away the boring hours (when we were not being harassed by having to do work) by dumping any grey matter in our brains on unsuspecting strangers.
#workIsWork
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 14:16 (seven years ago)
Jessica begins speaking, and no one speaks over her. She didn’t actually have an ending to her presentation prepared, because she expected to be interrupted. She is mortified.
It me - I've been in this situation a few times, more in conversation than in a presentation context. Remember thinking what a decent guy he is.
― kinder, Wednesday, 10 January 2018 14:23 (seven years ago)
this is really good
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/aziz-ansari-metoo-sex.html
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 18 January 2018 09:06 (seven years ago)
yeah I love Lindy
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 18 January 2018 17:08 (seven years ago)
yeah, strong essay
― k3vin k., Thursday, 18 January 2018 17:42 (seven years ago)