These Drinks Is Vicious: The Killing Eve Thread

http://phildellio.tripod.com/oksana.jpeg

I loved a lot of Killing Eve, especially Jodie Comer--funniest psychopath since Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs; I thought at first Sandra Oh's mannerisms would drive me up the wall, but I came to like her a lot, too--but not the ending. It was such a blatant "we have to do something to set up a second season" mish-mash. Found the music fascinating. Didn't know any of it--it felt like one long version of "Some Velvet Morning" at times.

― clemenza, Monday, December 31, 2018 7:54 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I want to rewatch all of Killing Eve again soon. Maybe right before the next season comes out. Sandra Oh is usually the best thing in everything she is in.

― Yerac, Monday, December 31, 2018 8:24 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I loved Oksana's supervisor: "These drinks is vicious." The ongoing by-play between the two of them was the highlight of the show for me.

― clemenza, Monday, December 31, 2018 8:56 AM (thirty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I watched the first episode, then half of the second, then bailed out. But then I came back a week or so later and made it to the end. There was some really good stuff in it - Sandra Oh was fantastic, as mentioned, and it was good to see Kim Bodnia from The Bridge again (as Jodie Comer's handler), but yeah, the ending sucked, and the whole "Russia is a dank hellhole where everyone will betray you at a moment's notice" thing was a total cliché. (As was the whole "sexy young woman is super-assassin" thing.) But the woman who played Comer's former teacher was great. A mixed bag at best.

― grawlix (unperson), Monday, December 31, 2018 8:56 AM (thirty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

We should've had a Killing Eve thread. Maybe when the next series comes out. i liked the ending. It was fun.

― Yerac, Monday, December 31, 2018 9:01 AM (thirty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a lot of the music was david holmes wasn't it as part of the Unloved crew that he is part of.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45828680

I loved this show.

Bookmarking even though we've only finished the first episode.

It fell off quite rapidly about five episodes in but the first few are excellent and Jodie Comer is phenomenal throughout. I’m looking forward to season two.

(xpost) I had a feeling the music had been made specifically for the show; it seemed unlikely that with so many songs I wouldn't recognize at least a couple of them. Really inventive.

Agree with SV it tails off p badly. But I may just feel that way because my favorite relationship is the one between Eve and yer man out of Ben Elton sitcoms. In fact he's the best thing in it by far.

I listen to the Killing Eve sndtk on youtube sometimes. "Killer Shangri-Lah" and "K" are so great. So much slowdivey atmosphere.

I think this starts up again this Sunday.

"Killing Eve Season Two airs on BBC America in the US on Sunday 7 April. Details of the UK launch will be available soon."

boo. i can't see anything scheduled either

i thought it was supposed to be airing internationally at the same time?

I think the last one did. And was available as a box set.

In the epg I can see one episode listed for Apr 12 at 23:25 which I think is a repeat.

Season 1 aired six months later in the UK.

Getting a break in Toronto--it'll be playing on Bravo, basic to any cable subscription.

Thought last night was okay. Nothing more, nothing less.

Getting better. The new handler looks like he'll be great, nice twist at the end.

saw the first episode and thought the small amusements of the early episodes of S1 were absent - lacked the charm of the interplay between characters. I enjoyed all of S1, even in its more wild later episodes, but it will need a bit more than Villanelle being capriciously violent and pouting to do it.

Konstantin is such a great character--hope Kim Bodnia wins some awards. (He's Danish, not Russian.)

I won't spoil the set up, but "Okay--love you" is up there with the show's funniest lines.

I drifted off for the last half of episode 3 but was able to see what I missed on Bravo's site. Even on a small computer screen, the last few minutes were beautiful visually.

I’ve somewhat lost interest in catching up with this now PWB is no ldonger showrunning

^

Her husband's school is my old secondary school.

I'm getting enjoyment from imagining that after Blunt Talk was cancelled in LA, Adrian Scarborough's character had to return to England, change his name and apply his special forces-y background in a new role

I think you're wrong in giving up on this show--two of the first three episodes have been quite good (the first was a little slow).

Is this showing on UK tv yet? Just seen that RTE is on the 3rd episode of the 2nd season. Haven't seen a time for a British channel.

not yet, no.

sic pointed out that uk was 6 months behind bbc america last time.

Yes, it's not scheduled. BBC are waiting until the entire series has aired on BBCA so they can drop all eight episodes on iPlayer again, and transmission might come later than that.

The Poppy Family! I've liked most all of the music in this without knowing any of it--I even admire that it never relies on familiar and overly familiar standbys. But it was nice to recognize something, and even there, pretty creative (ditto the non-English "Angel of the Morning" later on).

I loved those silver pants a lot.

I really like this show but can I complain here about the soundtrack? it's so fucking loud and intrusive.

I really liked the music usage in the first season, haven't really noticed it in the new episodes so far except for them reusing a song.

it just comes blaring in in every other scene. the music itself is fine, but it's overused, and too loud.

I sound like an old person now

this episode was really stupid, RIP PWB

she's too busy selling gin(?) on british tv

(are those adverts new or are they just showing them again now? i heard it about a dozen times over the weekend)

I just watched the 4th episode. I decided I really like the music in episodes. I'm into the fuzzy ye ye, shoegazerous, asian covers. It fits with all the murderous, super styley, la femme vibe. It's pretty hot.

Some other television show seems to be getting all the attention...Still enjoying this. Not much music in last in last night's episode. I guess we're left to ponder what happened between Eve and Villanelle when they were alone. Maybe, maybe not (haven't read the books).

It's a bit shit now. Plot totally treading water, mostly lame jokes. Eve hiring Villanelle to kill her just to get her to torture another assassin was the stupidest idea. Couldn't she have just sent her a message via Konstantin?

The performances are still good.

I just like the characters and performances. I'm not sure how believable the whole thing was right from the start.

I don't care if it's not entirely believable, but I draw the line at nonsensical.

I still think it's totally fun. Just caught up on all episodes. I mean all Bond movies are completely nonsensical but I kind of enjoyed a few of them.

I think we're the last two standing.

I am still highly entertained by the show. I get a lot of pleasure from the clothing and locations and random dialogue.

I mostly find the two leads plus Konstantin endlessly entertaining. Eve has the same pull on me as Anton Chigurh in No Country for Old Men: "He's a peculiar man. You could even say that he has principles. Principles that transcend money or drugs or anything like that. He's not like you. He's not even like me." (Also true of Hannibal Lecter, Norman Bates, etc.--it's nothing new.)

"it's nothing new"

Yeah, I think in the Hannibal thread I compared the highly watchable tension between Will/Hannibal with the leads in Killing Eve.

yeah I find it fine. thoroughly entertaining. actually I think this week's was better than the rest of the season, something needed to start happening.

will watch sooner or later but this thread is not making it sound necessary

I'm liking it a lot, too. Though agreed on the Ghost plot being anticlimactic. Was expecting Ghost vs. Villanelle skillful assassinations instead of the wrap-up, and yes, hiring Villanelle was an odd way of getting them together and reestablishing her connection with Eve. Though with Konstantin breaking off from MI6, there wasn't a direct way of messaging Villanelle, unless I missed something.

Hoping Eve's recklessness has some blowback, but as her boss is aware and monitoring Eve, maybe it's being nurtured.

Jodie Comer does such a great job selling her character's moods. "BORING!" got a big laugh.

I am wondering the point of Hugo.

His shirts are too small.

well don't know how easy it is to buy that Villanelle is now just working with them at this point, but this was my favorite episode of the second series by far.

A bit better (Jeremy Dyson script!) but basically wheel-spinning.

nah the scene with tech douche made it worthwhile to me.

I've been defending the show, but I didn't like the last episode too much--although Eve's roadside murder was great.

co-producer Phoebe insists she's still very much involved.

'I'm all across it,' she says. 'You can't get me out of any conversation about any part of the creative process.

for all the moaning about this season I do think the last few (including last nights) were some of the best episodes of the whole series.

I liked last night's too--thought Villanelle was funny the whole way through, especially with Niko and Gemma. I like how Villanelle is now involved with someone who might be more of a sociopath than she is.

Nice finale, feels like anything might happen in this show and I’m good with it, Villanelle stayed true to her character in that final scene imo

yes!!!

Didn't realize tomorrow was the season 2 finale...Thanks for keeping details oblique.

Or opaque. One of those fancy o-words.

ugh. I still love this show so much. It's so good.

I just finished it.

I've seen a 5 second trailer for the new series in the UK but there's still no schedule that I can find.

this was a fucking amazing finale. in fact it could be an amazing series finale if they decided not to bring it back, though I'm sure they will

Liked it for the most part, but found the ending a bit of a non-event. I mean, you already know there's a third season.

i’ve had days of joy from “i want the recipe to your shepherd’s pie”

The finale reminded me a lot of the Hannibal trajectory.

I also loved the shepherd's pie (and smell ya later) convo.

Season 2 was a load of bollocks tbh and I havent even watched the finale yet.

it's already been renewed for a third season

yeah, announced a couple of months ago, changing showrunners again to a Fear The Walking Dead writer

Season 2 was a load of bollocks tbh and I havent even watched the finale yet.

S2 finale was p much a replay of S1 finale: Eve and Villanelle get really close and are about to fuck / become a couple but then SPOILER one of them murders the other one, but don't worry they'll get up when we and the murderess aren't looking

Starts 8th June on BBC.

bbc sounds has put up some mixes:

Killing Eve: The Soundtracks
The Soundtrack to Series 1: Curated & mixed by David Holmes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07b7fzb
120 mins

Killing Eve: The Soundtracks
The Soundtrack to Series 2: Curated & mixed by David Holmes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07cfh5j
105 mins

and then there are these, supposedly mixtapes done by eve for villanelle and vice versa

Obsessed With...Killing Eve
Eve chooses the tracks for Villanelle
"Eve is on the hunt"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07c65zj
76 mins

Obsessed With...Killing Eve
Villanelle curates this mix just for Eve
"Villanelle has lovingly picked every single track in this mix for Eve."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07c69np
70 mins

Last episode was probably the best of this patchy and often weirdly slow season. If that actually was the end (it's wasn't) then it wouldn't have been a bad one in a brutal way.

Got a hunch season 3 will be pure rubbish.

I still haven't come back for Ep 2. Something felt off. First of all I forgot what the fuck was happening and the show did not cater for me at all. I know we're all bingers now but ... I'm not rewatching S1 just to prep. Sorry not sorry! Second of all I feel like... I've kind of seen enough of these characters? I love Sandra Oh but I don't love seeing her act helpless and crazy and borderline incompetent. I love Jodie Comer but what she does to the kid in the hospital felt out of character: paradoxically both too random AND too motivated. random because she's an assassin, not a serial killer; too motivated because i don't buy for a second that she cares about this kid's misery, much less that she'd go to such lengths to supposedly lessen it. Piecing together clues about what makes her tick was much of the pleasure of S1 - and I've kind of lost confidence that the show knows anymore, if it ever did.

Also, Parisian hospital security relaxing the rules for a second? BAHAHAHAHA

also surely no one changes their preference of smooth/crunchy peanut butter on a whim. Why does Carolyn ask her son this? It's been bugging me.

the baddie was a total non-event too; wasted opportunity

If I liked the pilot, I should just go ahead and buy the whole first season, right?

There was no pilot, but (or thus) the whole first series is p much on the same level

finished S2 out of a sense of duty, I guess? The predictable, thudding incompetence of Eve all of MI6 got really old, plus I don't really care for how much the show tries to get you to root for a child murderer. I strongly doubt we'll be fooled into picking this back up for S3.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2019 season is nominated in the 2019 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2019 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends January 31

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (4 minimum, 25 maximum, organized by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail by end of day today. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

Can we talk about the first episode of S3 yet?

Hey, I didn't know it was back! I think there are a few people on this thread who gave up on it during S2, but I'll watch for sure (my schedule is very open these days). I just hope I can catch up with the first episode before the second one airs.

I only just caught up with the whole series in the last month or so, but I had heard that a lot of viewers were dissatisfied with S2. I don't really get why; maybe I'm even more easily entertained these days than I usually am, but I found S2 to be just as solid as the first.

I'll avoid specific details for now, but the first episode of S3 showed occasional signs of strain, I thought; The AV Club recap (which I don't recommend reading until you've seen the episode) gets at why that may be, in the case of this particular episode.

Kinda don't want to say any more right now until others start talking about it.

I just checked and it looks like I can get to it through Rogers Ignite. (It's moved from Showcase to AMC.) I'll likely watch tonight.

yeah, I am also one of those people that thought season 2 was totally good.

Same problem I've had with every series ever, except for the couple where I watched the whole thing at once: I remember pretty much nothing from the end of S2. So it's going to take me two or three episodes to settle in. The Olga Korbut-like preface was a nice touch.

Still being vague for the purpose of spoiler-guarding, I liked how a nicely written and played yet seemingly extraneous moment between Carolyn and Kenny paid off dramatically.

I was just left thinking when the series was supposed to be set when I saw that acrobatics bit.
Is it supposedly current or is it a couple of decades ago.
Now thinking back I think people are using reasonably recent mobile phone apps and things aren't they?

Like obviously the acrobat was going to be a figure current to the series in much younger form.

it’s current. (the acrobat shows up in the episode—i don’t want to spoil but she has a pretty prominent role.)

A good example of how can I miss the obvious stuff in the world: I watched that episode thinking (or not thinking) that that was Villanelle in the prologue until reading this. Right, she's not over 60...

can I = I can

Worked out who it was supposed to be but for a while I was trying to think if it was supposed to be otherwise set about 20 years ago.
Was thinking at the time It might be supposed to be a Villanelle.but she'd be way too old even in that circumstance.
.

it says 1974 (or 72) at the flashback and then later shows a much older woman in present day coaching gymnastics. I didn't think that was confusing!

If I'd taken even a second to think about it, no, not at all. But I thought Villanelle as the prologue unfolded, then never thought about it again, even after Dasha showed up present-day.

Felix, we hardly knew ye.

I don't remember having been introduced to the aging gymnastics teacher until this episode so wonder how I would have known about her when i saw the flashback at the start of the show.

Hate to say, but S3 has been kind of a drag for me so far.

CTV prefaced last night's show with a strange disclaimer that "In light of recent events, several scenes may be inappropriate for some viewers." I can't say that I have much of a clue to what this referencing--the mention of Emile Brontë never leaving her house? The lack of social distancing on the bus?

I was going to mention that same thing--that disclaimer was very cryptic. All I could think was that any kind of violence right now is considered bad form...I keep watching for scenes like on the bus last night. I lost the plot somewhere towards the end of S1; it's just eye candy by now.

the baby in the bin obviously

I think the UK Is a week behind the rest of teh world, possibly including Ireland.
THink BBC1 broadcast episode 2 this week and I have a copy of episode 3 that i have yet to watch.
Just thought I'd say that in case anybody was feeling like talk of episodes was out of step with where they had got to

(xpost) That was great, especially the way you could hear her crying in the background as they kept talking. Weirdly enough, when I was out walking yesterday, I passed a young girl sitting in a garbage pail talking to her mother...Killing Eve fans, or some new experimental quarantine.

Didn't expect that...The Tiny Tim scene was entertainingly nuts.

I second both of those.

Feel like S3 season only really got going with this episode. Too bad we're already halfway through the season.

The big Elton scene was a series highlight; that Russian song near the end was pretty great too. Odd that Oksana's background was the basis for a whole episode--it's not like you've been waiting around to find out about that; don't remember it even being alluded to until the last couple of episodes--so I'm guessing they're just casting about for ways to stretch this out.

it's been hinted about all season!

this was a great episode, probably my favorite episode of this show ever. Partly improved by not being about Kenny's death and his mom all of which I frankly find boring.

I thought the first hints were E3 or E4--I must have missed anything earlier. I'm a little bored by the mom too.

i really liked this episode.

was the music as obnoxiously loud in s1 as it was in s2 and now 3? been while since i saw it but p sure it wasn't. hideous.

Best episode of the season, for sure.

Absolutely true: I was listening to Moses Znaimer's boomer station in the car last week, and, as a tease for "Crocodile Rock," some guy who was doing a 1972 chart countdown said that after the break he'd be playing the rare dance-craze song that didn't have an actual dance attached to it. (I was able to guess what was coming up.)

I think that was taken care of last night.

Guess I'll drop off for spoilers, but we're finishing up S2 and it's surprisingly enjoyable. It's ridiculous, sure, but I like that it plays to its strengths and keeps the focus squarely on Eve/Villanelle, without following too many side characters/plots very closely.

I honestly felt like I might be done with this show last week, not because of anything specific to last week's episode, but just because I found myself not caring much anymore. This week's episode brought me back (probably the second best episode of the season after the one where Oksana goes home), but overall it is not terribly obvious that the writers had a solid plan for how this season was going to develop.

Almost posted the same thing last night--haven't cared about the last two episodes--but wasn't engaged enough to do even that. I just want it to finish up and call it a day. They seem unsure whether they want to give Oksana a conscience or not. They've completely lost Eve's character.

still enjoying it but the show does seem rudderless and weird? is this the final season?

other than villanelle there has always been a huge distance in this show...they characters are very hard to know or understand and therefore difficult to care about. I can no longer tell who works for who or what, plot-wise, particularly where her old boss and constantine are concerned.

It has been renewed up through Season 4.

Constantine, who provided this thread's title, was my favourite character early on. Same thing, I have no idea where he fits into the story anymore. He's here, he's there, he pops in to make a joke or two, then he disappears for a while. Anything can be salvaged with a new character or two (thought they had one early in S3 with Oksana's new protege) and some good writing, but a fourth season seems daunting.

I think the 12 being so faceless for so long has been a detriment to the show.

still enjoying it but the show does seem rudderless and weird?

they change the rudder every season so

meanwhile the Phoebe Waller-Bridge exec-produced thriller-comedy series that actually has Phoebe Waller-Bridge involved wrapped its first season last night, and was both fun and left off at a point where the second season's story can either start up the next week, or in a year or two, depending on how long pandemic production pauses last.

Run, I assume? I should probably try a second ep.

Yeah, it's enjoyably unpretentious. And short!

short is highly underrated these days imo

Run was really good but it ended so abruptly.

The ending of this week's episode was good, but honestly, I'm completely lost as to how characters relate to each other at this point. These are people who wanted to kill and/or capture each other in the first season; they pal around now. This is not necessarily the show's fault--I just don't have the level of concentration required to sort out complicated dynamics like the ones on this show.

I think a lot of the relationships and associations are deliberately cloudy. In that way, the show is in the John le Carré (rather than James Bond) tradition, though obviously there is a lot more going in the series besides that.

I liked the ending as well. Oddly hopeful. This season ended up working for me once I started thinking about it in terms of trauma--Eve's, Villanelle's, Theo's, even Carolyn's (though honestly, I'm starting to think that Carolyn may be more of a sociopath than Villanelle). It was still uneven in a way that the previous two seasons were not, but I'm kind of looking forward to more now.

feel like it’s a metaphor for how sexual desire and longing for a person’s annihilation aren’t so far off from each other

i am very curious where this show goes with a) brexit b) pandemic and related travel restrictions c) increased suspicion of law enforcement all hanging over the world

Hard to get my head around how returning shows set in the present will (if they do) incorporate the last few months. Killing Eve, because of its tone (breezy and chic?), presents a real challenge. Ozark is so unapologetically crazy, they're probably well equipped to concoct some outlandish scenario.

I really fucking hope most tv shows ignore it and we don’t have to live in a post-lockdown (or lockdown #4 or whatever) world where every tv show has a lockdown series about how boring lockdown is or how to be a spy from yr living room or whatever

I don't think there was a show I watched with regularity in 2001--Seinfeld was finished, I caught up with The Sopranos much later--but that might be a guide as to how shows will handle COVID. Maybe; there are so many differences. Agree that I hope COVID subplots or episodes don't become de rigueur.

It's not like a show like Killing Eve dealt with current events at all, I also hope it doesn't become a thing unless they're actually filming under quarantine conditions.

Would certainly work on a medical show, if TV still has those.

This happened to me with Ozark, too: I sat down tonight to watch the next episode, not even realizing the last one was the season finale.

this episode was really weird to me. most of the season I've felt like I missed something but I'm quite certain I didn't. It's like...suddenly they're meeting at a dance hall? Suddenly villanelle is just wandering about into office spaces? Why's she meeting with Carolyn? I really have no clue wtf is going on here any longer. I'll probably watch next season though.

did they show when they found the bug?

Just watched all 3 seasons. Both very fun and increasing frustrating series. The show has such fresh characters, great acting and beautiful visuals - but feels like the writers didn’t really know what to do with them over time. Like Villanelle kills tons of people and no one checks fingerprints or security cameras? And the 12 who seem to have unlimited resources and info allow the main characters to kinda do whatever they want. And they pulled the “important character looks like they were killed but surprise! they didn’t die” trick about 5-6 times in 24 episodes. But for all that I’m in to see what they can cook up for season 4.

For the first time, the showrunner on season 4 is someone who wrote on a previous season, so it's fair to expect more of the style & tone of S3.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2020 season is nominated in the 2020 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2020 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 29, 2021

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

The fourth/final season starts Feb. 27 (or at least where I am). All I remember from S3 is Villanelle's family dancing to "Crocodile Rock"...I'm compelled to finish, even though this has been a straight line down.

If it wasn't the last season, I'd probably skip it, but this is their chance to do something other than wheel-spinning, like the previous season was

That's what I'm hoping, that they manage to get back to the intrigue and occasionally sinister feel of S1. Something a lot less jokey.

I mean, the humour was there from the start--I mention it in my opening post--but as everyone got progressively more chummy, there was no more menace to balance that. If the last couple of seasons had been shot in front of a live audience, they'd be cheering every Villanelle entrance like she's Fonzie in 1977.

Yeah from the beginning it was always gonna struggle with the issue of maintaining the tension between the leads. I would have preferred a major shake-up last season, even if it meant it being the final season, but I'll take it a season late. Anything to prevent another Dexter

First episode wasn't bad--"Jesus" was funny--second was worse. This guardian angel (or whatever) of Villanelle's is ridiculous.

Part of me wants to watch this for closure, a bigger part of me can't be arsed.

(See also Peaky Blinders which is spinning plates it could easily have taken off the pole last series.)

So far, Season 4 has kinda been a whole lot of nothing.

I can't even remember if watched the first two episodes or just the first--that was right after it started. Just haven't gone back, and I have two others on the go now (and finished Succession between). I will.

Don't much care about The 12, so planning on just watching the finale to see how Villanelle and Eve resolve.

This is like watching a game of musical chairs, only the number of chairs isn't reducing.

series finale this sunday!

has this been worth watching? I kind of gave up hope because the plot was getting incomprehensible in the last season.

The series finale was actually the strongest episode of the season by far--there were two soundtrack choices that made me quite happy, for one thing--but it feels like too little, too late. Getting Eve and Villanelle together only highlights how much stronger the season would have been if they'd been given more screen time together. And for a show has consistently handled queerness without the usual bullshit, it was really disappointing to see the series conclude with two particularly musty homophobic tropes: the psychotically obsessed lesbian (Gunn), and the bury-your-gays conclusion.

Watching the finale made me feel confident that quitting after season 1 was the right decision. Performers are still good but the writing seems like active sabotage.

I don’t know what the other writers were like on the first season, but every season since has seemed like… stuff just happened and characters seem to care, but maybe not? It might be my reading of it, but the ongoing events just seem ephemeral and I’d have to attempt to remember what happened when I started the next.

If I binged it, maybe it’d have been more connected? I can reduce an entire season’s plot summary to five bullet points or less, which is fine if there’s a lot of internal character work, but I didn’t get that.

Conceding that I haven't gone any farther than I noted above--first couple of episodes into this season (looking forward to those musical cues crypto mentions)--with both this and The Handmaid's Tale (and Mr. Robot to an extent, and probably lots of shows), it just feels like they weren't meant to go beyond a couple of seasons. But they caught on immediately because of strong first seasons, which cornered them into an extended stay--I'm sure it's hard to walk away after all that flurry of attention and awards.

The opposite of Mindhunter, which should have kept going but left so much hanging.

When the tv series started it was a Phoebe Waller Bridge writing project based on a successful book series. Then she dropped away from writing and became a producer I think. I enjoyed it for the most part but do wonder how it would have fared if she had remained writer.

somewhere around the end of season 2 I started to just find the actual plot machinations incomprehensible.

The machinations were not a problem for me until the show started caring more about the incomprehensible plot than the characters (so, Season 4).

I'll analogize a point I've made before in this thread. The biggest mistake was trying, bit by bit, to make Villanelle more likeable...I'll stop short of saying they tried to "humanize" her, but they did methodically soften the nasty edge. It reminds me of what they did with Carroll O'Connor on All in the Family (and especially moving into his spin-off show): they tried to make him lovable. Early on, the character's racism was front and center, and you had to gauge how you felt about the rest of him in relation to that.

Alf Garnett was a working class icon apparently. I think it was said that he became far more popular and was taken more seriously or at least sympathised with much more than intended. People taking his political stance as something to copy etc. So not sure to what extent he was rewritten in transatlantic translation.
I have read that one has to make even the worst character sympathetic to some extent or one will just not care what happens to them. Not sure how much control one has over audience interpretation.
Archie Bunker just being the same character in US remake of the show etc.

So reception must have been different , though I thought Bunker had similar unintended support for what was intended asa satirical character. Buut why you would need to sweeten him for public consumption I don't know,.
I do remember an American I was talking to in the late 80s bewailing the addition of unconvincing happy endings as a Hollywood trope around then which is presumably years later. Can't have the audience feeling bad after all.

My impression was that neither character seemed much different from where PWB left them at the end of Season 1. And that they can both act their socks off, but don't have much chemistry together because their relationship doesn't make much sense + Eve's "messiness" seems like a convenient way to lampshade a motiveless character

I want to read the source novels to see if that makes any more sense there. & see what has changed.

Jeez this final season was bad. I agree with cryptosicko that the finale was the best episode of this bunch but mostly made me wish Eve and Villanelle had been working together all season. Instead we got a whirlwind of underdeveloped, confusing plotlines and characters. Feel like the writers threw in every idea they could so that you didn't think too hard about the show having no purpose anymore

the dancing / killing montage was the best thing all season, everything else was just background tv

but generally i'm just glad i don't have to watch it any more

I watched this as a conpletist, but series 4 was at least 6, probably 7 episodes too long. There were fun bits, like the Jesus stuff, but they didn't contribute to the plot. Even the whole Pam thread, which went on forever, was entirely superfluous and could have been resolved in less than 10 minutes of screen time using existing characters.

I quite liked that actress in We Are Lady Parts but Pam is so superfluous to the story and not very well- defined. And then they introduced yet another barely-characterized female assassin! at some point, it becomes funny how bad it is