This is a thread for ILXors ON THE WAGON (and for the Wagon Curious)

We do have the "I'm an alcoholic" thread, but the word "alcoholic" can be off-putting and not sufficiently inclusive of all the various reasons for and approaches to Going On the Wagon.

So this is a thread about Not Drinking Alcohol: thinking about it or already there, long-term or short-term, drinking problem or no drinking problem, all welcome, don't be a jerk.

I personally find it meaningful to hear from other people who are Not Drinking for whatever reason. My own reason can be summed up as high-functioning-problem-drinker and I availed myself of plenty of help to quit.

What's your relationship with The Wagon?

oh hi, thanks! yeah I'm not drinking for the foreseeable future while I get my shit together, but it's not the primary driver of the problems - it just greases the rails and numbs the pain. So this thread feels appropriate.

2 weeks today, gonna go for at least 3 months and then see what's up with the other issues.

I found things got significantly easier after 3 weeks.

Not drinking has been tremendously helpful to me for dealing with the issues driving the drinking. I really couldn't have worked on them with any success while still drinking, though I god knows I tried!

thank you, that is encouraging

this Naked Mind book recommended in the other thread seems kind of new agey in a creepy Marianne Williamson way, but I will give it a fair shake even though the author talks about her mysterious back pain that no doctor could fix that she cured with her mind, rmde

That book can be irritating, yes, but it does make some good points despite the weird tone.

The Recovering by Leslie Jamison is better written by miles, but is a totally different ball of wax.

I have tried alcohol on a dozen or so occasions, never much cared for it, at most I got annoyed at how loud and incoherent I felt like I was getting (on 1/3 or so of a beer). So practically speaking I don’t drink, don’t have an interest in it, and never hear anyone talk about drinking in a way that makes me feel like I’m missing out.

This is not the thread for you then

See I read quincie’s op and it seemed like it was, is this a recovery thread or about not drinking alcohol

cmon dude, “on the wagon” is unambiguous

hi, i am a not particularly functional serial binge drinker of 30+ years standing and no amount of attempted moderation or self-control doesn't lead me swiftly back to wildly self-destructive binging, and i know really i must accept i have to stop, proper stop, forever and that is terrifying because the pub goer is about all i feel like i have left of who i am

Noodle Vague's predicament is kind of mine, too. I had a really quite destructive period in my mid-late 30s (mid-40s now) which was part of a larger crisis of purpose. I've since changed career - a move that meant I essentially couldn't drink as much and function at the level at which I need to be - and my relationship to booze has been much healthier. I'm getting to grips with the job now though and, well, I can see old habits creeping back in. And I get long(er) holidays, where I tend to make up for things and this summer in particular, was fairly boozy. Short version: my mental health and relationships suffered.

All of which has meant me taking the last 10 days off and I feel immeasurably better.

I have cut back significantly after fairly heavy drinking for the best part of two decades. It took nearly getting sacked from two consecutive jobs and real and active concern from my partner before I got help. Unfortunately I've kind of replaced that urge with a fondness for prescription painkillers that I need to shake. There's always something but I'm marginally more in control now and optimistic, sometimes

I'll be a boringly functional but killing myself slowly alcoholic till the death I think. My addiction doesn't cause any crisis's so I can happily plod on with it till the death. Or least until my ailing health becomes a crisis, but that is what it take to persuade me to even consider stopping.

This is totally a thread for silby per the original thread intent; people abstain from alcohol for numerous reasons.

I use the term "on the wagon" frequently and casually to mean I am currently not drinking. More because it's a signal to friends that I don't want them cajoling me to go to a bar or to offer me drinks when we hang out. I often have long periods of not drinking (I likely won't be drinking for the rest of the year) because I find it difficult to eat and exercise to the standards I want to be at while drinking even a little.

Booze does have a significant knock-on effect on a whole bunch of things - diet, exercise, sleep, wallet, mental health (to varying, difficult-to-gauge levels). I did 100 days at the start of last year and initially felt great for it - I read more, was generally more 'level', exercised more etc - but I missed the culture around drinking (seeking out new beers) and the way it gave shape to my weeks. I also missed something more nebulous along the lines of the camaraderie of drinking together with people.

I stopped drinking entirely between December 2018 and June 2019 aside from maybe 3 beers over the course of those 7 months, mostly because my drinking habits were manageable but constant; my kids were constantly asking me if every drink I had was a beer and it concerned me that that had become their default impression of me. As a side effect, I lost 15 lbs of weight I'd been whining about but never motivated myself to get rid of.

I'm back to drinking much more moderately now and am very conscious of what I'm doing when watching tv or playing videogames.

Good point about kids. Mine are of an age where they need to see me being responsible not acting like a dick.

I also want to acknowledge calzino's post, but I don't know what to say. Will a nod across the bar suffice in any way at all?

for several years now i've hardly drunk at all, it seems i went from being a social drinker during grad school - occasionally to excess - to having the rare drink with friends. for part of that time i have been a lot more skint, but also once i was drinking alone - which i always rather liked - and the next morning i looked like shit, and figured i was getting too old to be drinking much. i think i probably last imbibed a year or so ago? and similarly in the year before that, etc. this is surely a byproduct of my dead social life. recently i thought i might pick up a little wine or something to have with dinner (was never much for wine), inject a new variable into my routine.

this is the same thing i posted in the other thread

I don’t have a reading rec but this summer I didn’t drink for 2 weeks bc of a health issue, which I realized was the first time I ever attempted complete teetotaling for that long. During that time, I played 2 shows, my dog died suddenly, and I had to go on an overnight retreat w my coworkers — all situations in which I’d have gladly been drinking — and it was definitely hard! I drank inconceivable amounts of flavored seltzer and noticed that I did indeed feel different after about 10 days. Much less depressed, for starters, in spite of the dire circumstances.

Since those two weeks, I’ve been thinking that maybe alcohol just isn’t very good for me. Not terrible, but def not good. Not-drinking is way more appealing than it used to be.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, August 26, 2019 6:50 PM (two weeks ago)

I think that generally, if you are feeling bad AND drinking, stopping drinking is a very good start to feeling better (mentally, physically, etc) If it's difficult, that teaches you something too.

I concur. I didn’t even realize I met DSM criteria for generalized anxiety disorder (despite being in a profession in which I routinely screened others for such) until I went into treatment for SUD. 4+ months later and I no longer meet criteria nor feel anxious much at all! It’s been like a silver fucking bullet. Of course it has been a giant pain in the brain to get to this point, but dear god so worth it.

I find it near impossible to go completely sober so my version of On The Wagon means no drinking at home unless friends are over. This usually results in me going out to bars more regularly but honestly that's a net plus because I'm otherwise too much of a shut-in. I wish I could adhere to this policy year-round but usually can only do a few weeks at a time, 2 or 3 times a year. I definitely notice and enjoy the mental and physical health improvements when I'm not going through a 6-pack plus a few whiskeys every night.

four weeks

Nice! Is it easier now than at week 2?

not really, maybe? no physical craving, just "fuck I really wish I could have a beer right now" about 2-3x a day

well done!

drinking a lot of Topo Chico (thanks brimstead) and Cock N Bull ginger ale

and the new black currant shrub I made which is extremely delicious

it's only five weeks since my ablation -- which has a 12-week recovery period, except i just spent one of them back in hospital with heightened heart rate and atrial flutter :|

i've already given up coffee, and i think i'm going to give up alcohol also, at least till the end of the 12: the hospital stint wasn't alcohol-related but why not give everything a bit of a rest from that kind of extra beating?

and yet you tweet

i will never log off

3 weeks and no real cravings as such (I'm not a big drinker, really, but can be destructive when I do). Usual things are apparent for me: generally steadier mood, reading lots more, sleeping better, more continuity of thought.

I liked to get drunk when I was 19 or 20, particularly if I was at a show. Always beer — hard liquor never held much interest. But I got bored with that after a while, because I got more and more serious about writing and I absolutely could not write drunk. So by my mid-20s I was basically down to a beer or two here and there, usually with a meal. Then, in my early 30s, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and my doctor told me that if I drank alcohol, I should stop, because it would interfere with the oral medications I was taking (and still take). So I stopped. I've been "on the wagon" for about 15 years now, and while I'm sure I could go back to drinking if I wanted to — I'd be able to calculate the effect on my blood sugar and regulate accordingly — I don't actually miss it at all.

Ask me to give up caffeinated beverages (I chug unsweetened iced tea and Coke Zero by the gallon) and I'd have a much bigger problem.

Ive gone from heavy drinking 5+ days a week (I'm sure Ive talked about it before on ILX) to now doing light drinking 1 day a week, maybe 2 if I'm extra-good. I've still indulged a day here and there, and I'll continue to keep trying to reduce the amount and regularity.

What finally kicked me into gear was a sudden rapid increase in real bad LFTs. And in only 3 months, I've got them way down and closer to normal, so its working!

Xmas/summer hols is gonna be hard :/

NO one told me about the fecking sugar cravings though. I never had a sweet tooth. What is this fresh hell.

Go for it Trayce, taking care of yourself is a powerful thing to do

2 wks.

The sugar craving is real! I went from not having of a sweet tooth to requiring daily dessert, sometimes more than one!

I don't have a sweet tooth either but I remember when I didn't drink for several years and was focused on working out and eating well, I was obsessed with ice cream for the only time in my life.

from the old to what extent does your life revolve around alcohol? thread

used to be a daily drinker to a greater or lesser degree but i barely drink at all now

the anti-depressants i'm taking at the moment make drinking a lot less fun - if regular drinking feels like putting the output of your senses through a fuzz pedal and playing a glorious windmilling pete townshend power-chord, then drinking on anti-depressants feels like fumbling a jazz chord and getting drenched in pints of piss hurled by an angry audience

― for sale: clown shoes, never worn (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 10 August 2017 13:27 (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink

two years on from that post and i'm now off the antidepressants but i barely drink at all - i guess i just fell out of the habit and, since my wife barely drinks and i have a 15-month-old daughter whose sleeping schedule doesn't lend itself well to managing hangovers, i've never picked it back up again and i'm on the wagon by default ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Habit is a powerful force huh. Well, I’m on the wagon tonight in solidarity with y’all.

Sounds like a better place than 2 years ago, BG

4 weeks in, Friday night booze introspection: when I'm drinking, Fridays are when I have a few beers and sit about eating and listening to music. Without the booze, I'm more inclined to let the evening drift and don't have the same urge to get myself 'up' for it and am way less sociable (just ask my wife) - to the point where I can't really separate the sociability and the booze and I wonder if that part of my personality is really just the booze. Like, I can't face social occasions without the thought of drinking.

Short version: I worry about becoming a dullard.

i quit about a decade ago and have brief dalliances every now and again but have mostly sworn off alcohol as the least interesting of drugs.

was working in clubs and bars and restaurants and got into the habit of loading up at the end of the night as it was generally free or cheap but had one-too-many nights of throwing up on the subway or ending up at the wrong house trying to get in or just generally being an asshole. grandfather died of drink and i have definite obsessive personality issues so it seemed better to err on the side of caution. I will have a beer if that's all there is to drink but I find everytime i have one drink, I have six. it's just not a good idea for me.

and don't worry about being a dullard; i find most people who think drink makes them interesting are ignoring that it's more of a depressant and that it is, in fact, suppressing your real personality which is undoubtedly more interesting than you on booze.

3wks in and found the post work conference drink hard to navigate. Prevalent "it would just be the one" thoughts as I stood at the bar. Managed to get a tonic water without anything harder but didn't stay long with everyone who was throwing stuff down and have had similar introspective time since then thinking about sociability. Hard to come to terms with realising that there's been two of me for so long one of which is an obnoxious boor. Thanks for the useful perspective ulysses.

5 weeks today, gonna go sell records in a bar all day long

ymmv with this tactic, but something i did early on while quitting, as i had to spend a lot of time at or near bars: I would start by approaching the bartender at a quiet moment with a fiver on the bar and saying "Hey, I'm really trying to quit drinking, can you make sure I only have a cranberry and soda in my hand all night?" Bartenders are people too, they tend to respect if you tell them up front what the deal is and tip them immediately.
Also: candy helps to deal with the oral fixation elements. I would go through a packet of tic-tacs a night for awhile.

yeah I am all about bitters and soda. I spend a fair amount of time in bars anyway and I went into this knowing that. My wife's still drinking as well, none of that seems to matter - proximity doesn't seem to be an issue thankfully.

at least two of the other sellers don't drink either, shit we're all getting old

Hey, I remember hearing an AA saying somewhere (possibly Infinite Jest) about how "doing your best is what got you here." But searching that doesn't bring me any relevant results. Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

no but the implication (I believe) would be the "you can't do this alone" focus of 12-step - you, by yourself, doing your best, isn't enough to overcome addiction.

7 weeks for me this coming Sunday, last Sunday I tried about a 5-6 ounce pour of a fresh hop IPA at a DJ gig, it was pretty good but I had no desire to drink more either at that point or in the following days.

still reading The Naked Mind and it has turned from vague hippie nonsense to terrifying scientific precision regarding alcohol and its effects.

is the "spontaneous sobriety" thing that she's going on about here actually a real thing in anyone's experience?

https://www.addiction.com/12020/what-are-the-odds-youll-get-sober-on-your-own/

"Spontaneous sobriety" as described in that article is not exactly spontaneous. People quit drinking or cut back to non-problematic use without formal treatment, sure. But I don't know of anyone who has done this without making some significant changes. IME it doesn't just happen naturally, as the word "spontaneous" suggests. It takes effort. That effort may look different people, but sitting around not making any changes and hoping that sobriety happens spontaneously? Yeah I've never seen sobriety happen that way. Do that and you are way more likely to get worse, not better. EtOH is an addictive neurotoxin, that is really quite undisputable.

whew Monday night was rough, it's the boring evenings that bring on the desire.

52 days now, gonna try for 90 and then take stock

congrats. i never lasted more than 60 days without after my puberty, i think.

when you say boring nights, do you mean boring nights out or in?

both :)

congrats! are you feeling better in general?

not really, tbh, but I don't miss waking up at 3 AM with a dehydration headache that's for sure

pretty sure I've lost weight thought

thought though

getting enough rest though is really important to ensure your body has enough time to recover/repair. I need to get my yearly physical still and was just looking at my bloodwork from last year. My liver enzymes were on the cusp of being over the standard threshold so I am hoping they are much better this year.

I just saw this phrase, "wagon-curious," on a menu description in upstate New York. I forget which 0% ABV drink it was advertising. ILX, was that you?

I usually see it in articles as "sober curious".

I was just looking it up and the Club Soda NYC event people have a book called Sober Curious. I am wondering if they coined that.

ooh in other "wagon" news, my local pub now has a tap devoted to a 0% ABV/25 mg CBD soda drink :)

Interesting, I hadn't seen that phrase but it's definitely one. And yes it seems to come from a book by a faintly goopy mystic/astrologer/or as her site says, Author. Speaker. Curator. Book Doula.

omg thx for new DN

xxp delicious!

the company is called Ablis, I am learning interesting things on Google today:

Any beverage maker, whether a big corporation or a small business, faces a fundamental issue when trying to put weed in their water: Cannabinoids are hydrophobic, or insoluble in water. That creates confusion for consumers, primarily: How was the CBD infused, and, thus, will they feel its effects? The answer to the latter largely depends on the former.

“For compounds like CBD that don’t really mix well with water, usually you have to put another agent with it to help it dissolve,” said Dr. Yasmin Hurd, a professor of neuroscience, pharmacological sciences and psychiatry at New York City’s Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. “Different ways used by people or the pharmaceutical industry are being adapted by cannabinoid companies.”

https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/ct-food-chicago-cbd-infused-drinks-0529-story.html

lol they are from Oregon of course

https://www.ablisbev.com/

well I'm not exactly off the wagon but I had a total of 5 beers over 3 days last weekend. nothing since Monday. still really enjoying ginger beers and lime Topo Chico. I spent a total of 9 weeks completely on-wagon, single 5-oz. beer pour excepted. Let's see how it goes moving forward for the last 30 days of the 90 I planned. I have a new Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale in the fridge that has been there since Monday, I am definitely gonna drink it this weekend :)

I’m something over six months on the uberwagon, maybe a year of greatly reduced drinky overall. I find abstinence less effortful than “cutting back” so I guess I will just keep going with this because I’m lazy like that.

don't you get that feeling of unbearable soberness after a couple of days on the wagon? after a week usually i am so sober and dried out that i see no sense to stay on the wagon anymore as it seems just so boring and useless.

nah I liked it! I sleep way better with super limited booze intake, for one.

I only feel the unbearable sobriety when around others who are drunk i.e. some good friends invited me to karaoke Sat night and they will be fully loaded. I’m like, “do I have to?” Late-night dance parties are another example. Otherwise, no.

Christ yes I am hating being around my closest friends drunk when Im sober, but its also becase when sober I just dont want to beb social/talk to anyone and they all wont stop yammering on.

still on

Major wagon benefit: waking up early on weekends with zero effort, feeling good after a good night's sleep.

It still feels strange that I'll have been up and puttering about quite a lot on a Sunday morning, thinking "oh I guess it is about lunchtime," then looking at the clock and seeing it is 10:30 a.m.

That prick of joy has not gotten old.

^^^ ha yes I love that feeling and often reward myself with the mid-morning weekend nap. We’ve earned it!

Was at a big bat mitzvah party last night and accidentally took a big swig of someone’s clear booze drink, thinking it was my club soda. It tasted great tbh and many neurons in my brain perked up at the taste. Mixed feelings about that.

Major wagon benefit: waking up early on weekends with zero effort, feeling good after a good night's sleep.

It still feels strange that I'll have been up and puttering about quite a lot on a Sunday morning, thinking "oh I guess it is about lunchtime," then looking at the clock and seeing it is 10:30 a.m.

That prick of joy has not gotten old.

Also even if you don’t have to wake up early, you can stay up late and not feel like shit when you wake up if you haven’t been drinking!! A night person doesn’t need to turn into a morning person to reap the benefits of teetotaling 😎

My point is that staying up late does not need to include substance abuse! Seems obvious but it’s easy to forget in adulthood.

^^^agree. If I was having drinks I either didn't have or didn't pay attention to "bedtime!" signals. Now I notice when I feel like going to bed and just. . . go to bed.

First 18 days of the new year without a drink. I felt noticeably great for the first two weeks; my diet has improved and I've been reading and exercising. I have that lovely feeling of being ready and able at the weekends too, which really is quite a thing. It's my birthday next weekend so I'll see how I go.

Are you wanting to stay on the wagon despite birthday or?

I'm pretty sanguine about it. I'm enjoying the periods of clarity (I did 6 weeks sober in September/October), while also enjoying exploring different beers when I get the chance.

Wagon in Time of COVID revive

I'm coming up on a year. It really isn't difficult at all anymore. A wistfulness once in a. while, but it isn't uncomfortable like a craving.

I 100% believe that the experience of cutting out EtOH and dealing with that discomfort, developing distress tolerance, learning new coping skill, etc. is the reason I am weathering the current storm with pretty much no distress.

How are others doing?

EtOH ?

It’s what teletubbies drink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

good boy

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Ethanol-3D-balls.png/220px-Ethanol-3D-balls.png

I often try a dry patch in September (I teach and tend to overdo it in August for obvious reasons). I'm 14 days in and I'd forgotten how productive it can be. I've not written a symphony or anything but having that little bit of extra energy and mental stability means I'm walking/reading/gardening etc more.

I stuck a toe off the wagon while on vacation. Didn’t overdo it by any means but nevertheless concluded that I was not missing much except poorer sleep.

I worked at a small grocery store one summer and heard the harder they come soundtrack, and some Boz Scaggs record about 100 times each but I’m climbing aboard

i am on a few wagons. cigs for 5 years (by FAR the hardest), booze for one year and sugar since march and off of the edibles for...5 days? and other drugs i have managed to avoid pretty good aside from edibles. nobody ever offers me any for one thing. and i always could have reached out for lsd and mushrooms and other stuff from friends but i never do/did. i can live without them. even though i love them. thank the lord i never had a steady supplier of coke or i would be a goner. i know city friends who have those insane ala carte online delivery services and that shit would be the death of me.

so now its just me. naked and unashamed. what do i do???? guess i'll start a podcast...

I am more than seven years sober, and admitted to myself some time ago that I am a recovering alcoholic. Giving up drink was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

i have to say that giving up - most - sugar has been a revelation. i feel better, my feet got smaller (!!), and i lost 50 pounds without even really trying. i'm not on diet or anything. i still eat. but without sugar i just don't eat as much. i get full faster. i was a horrible binge sugar eater. i tend to be addictive in every capacity. maria told me its called "fog eating". just getting lost and not thinking like when taking drugs. i have overcompensated with carbs. i need to curb the chip habit. but who cares i feel really good overall. and i exercise. after smoking for so long it was cool to get doctor's visit report that said my lungs were 99% good to go.

life is funny. i honestly didn't think i'd make it this far!

Sometimes I’m on! Sometimes I’m off! Honestly it is less annoying to just be on and stay on but there is something to be said for a harm reduction approach.

I've always thought of sugar as just as bad a vice as alcohol or smoking. I remember a friend telling me once it was a lot harder for him to quit soda than it was to quit smoking.

I find it near impossible to go completely sober so my version of On The Wagon means no drinking at home unless friends are over. This usually results in me going out to bars more regularly but honestly that's a net plus because I'm otherwise too much of a shut-in. I wish I could adhere to this policy year-round but usually can only do a few weeks at a time, 2 or 3 times a year. I definitely notice and enjoy the mental and physical health improvements when I'm not going through a 6-pack plus a few whiskeys every night.

― Fetchboy, Monday, September 9, 2019 1:07 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

feeling this. I actually find I spend *more* time at bars now that I’ve cut back 7-8 months ago, and probably spend even more money. but I feel better about myself

my come to Jesus moment was a few years ago, one Sunday morning I woke up feeling pretty good and thought hmmm, that's odd. it just felt wrong. a minute later I realized it was because I actually hadn't been drinking the night before. I guess it had been so long since I had a sober Saturday that my body was confused by it

sugar since march and off of the edibles for...5 days?

Were the edibles sugar-free? I was curious, and found this illuminating example:

https://inhalemd.com/blog/calories-popular-cannabis-edibles/

Edipure Sour Gummi Bears – How many gummi bears do you think make up one serving? Maybe a handful, about a dozen gummies? Think again: there are 10 servings in a 10-piece pack. At 10 servings and 110 calories per serving, a tiny, 10-bear pack weighing just 39 grams packs in 1,110 calories – about two McDonald’s Big Macs. Edipure’s Watermelon Tart Gummies score similarly at about 120 calories per piece (1,200 calories per 90-gram package). While you wouldn’t eat all 10 gummies at once, even eating two or three will still rack up 220 to 330 calories. You get the same amount of calories from your average slice of cheese pizza. A full package contains 100 milligrams of THC, or 10 milligrams per dose.

I don't think that's right, unless the gummi bears are huge. I'm not sure you could make a normal-sized 110 calorie gummi bear if you tried. the thing with edibles is sometimes its confusing what's the whole package and what's 'one serving', everything I've bought with nutrition info on it has been 5-10 cals a piece

It’s been a little over a year since I stopped drinking and I don’t miss it. No caffeine for 6 months or so.

I am all about harm reduction lately. It's been really effective to just buy 1 or 2 those 19.2 oz cans instead of a 6-pack. Then I'm out and there isn't any more beer and I'm actually perfectly buzzed, to reason to have more. Folks have come over lately and I haven't had any in the fridge, which was previously unheard of.

*no* reason to have more

"Were the edibles sugar-free?"

that's why i added that "most" disclaimer up there. that has been the biggest source of sugar for me since march.

I find it near impossible to go completely sober so my version of On The Wagon means no drinking at home unless friends are over. This usually results in me going out to bars more regularly but honestly that's a net plus because I'm otherwise too much of a shut-in. I wish I could adhere to this policy year-round but usually can only do a few weeks at a time, 2 or 3 times a year. I definitely notice and enjoy the mental and physical health improvements when I'm not going through a 6-pack plus a few whiskeys every night.

― Fetchboy, Monday, September 9, 2019 1:07 PM (four years ago) bookmarkflaglink

feeling this. I actually find I spend *more* time at bars now that I’ve cut back 7-8 months ago, and probably spend even more money. but I feel better about myself

― k3vin k., Monday, October 23, 2023 3:16 PM

Feeling this too. I drink less at home than at bars.

i think its awesome if people can stop at 1 or 2 or 3 drinks in a night. i always wanted to be that person! wasn't in my genetic cards. thanks grandpa. thanks dad.

one of the biggest thing I noticed when I quit drinking: waking up didn’t suck as much

that's what edibles are good for, one of those and 2-3 drinks will get you squarely in the zone but without your body trying to stage a mutiny. since I figured this out I've only really had bad hangovers once every couple of months

I don't really drink any more since going through cancer treatment. I might have one beer once a week now and that's plenty (not that I had a problem before, but we were in a 'one drink on weeknights, two on weekends' phase for awhile). My wife stopped drinking for a few weeks after listening to a Huberman podcast, and now she's on the same plan and says her sleep is much better.

I have gotten into the habit of indulging myself daily when it comes to baked goods & desserts since getting well again...I don't drink soda or have any processed/commercial sugar, but I should probably not keep doing this indefinitely.

I woke up feeling pretty good and thought hmmm, that's odd. it just felt wrong. a minute later I realized it was because I actually hadn't been drinking the night before.

After I quit, I got tired really early (like, 7:00 or 8:00) and slept heavily and late for about 2-3 weeks. It's as though my body needed time to rebuild. I don't think I had slept that well since adolescence, and I don't think I've had many nights like that since.

From what I heard who is in the edible production biz, it's incredibly difficult to maintain consistent dosage... he showed me some charts and the QC was all over the place, something like ±22% tolerance.

I've always wondered if it's that or if it's the fact that your body processes them differently depending on what exactly you've eaten. I keep getting into this cycle of "huh, guess my tolerance has gone up" to "oh fuck no it hasn't"

i learned to go with certain brands that did it best and were the most reliable. camino. wana.

trouble is I don't live in a legal state, if I go out of state I probably won't be able to find the brand again, and the farm bill stuff they sell here is often very inconsistent. sometimes you gotta roll the dice

And so a thread about sobriety turns into a discussion of the merits of various brands of edibles LOL

i think that's the course of 12 step meetings at times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhIcI-j-D6U

I woke up feeling pretty good and thought hmmm, that's odd. it just felt wrong. a minute later I realized it was because I actually hadn't been drinking the night before.

This reminds me of the old Frank Sinatra joke, “I feel sorry for people that don't drink because when they wake up in the morning, that is the best they're going to feel all day.”

that reminded me of that old joke: *you're drunk. well, madame, you are ugly, but at least i'll be sober in the morning.*

i thought it was w.c. fields and then i see this and yeesh its endless:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/17/sober-tomorrow/

I was halfway down a beer back in early June and I said, you know what, I'm not enjoying this, and then I just didn't drink any booze for a night or three, and then I sort of got into the habit of not drinking any booze, which is pretty uncharacteristic for me, an old drug addict who stopped using hard drugs. but I'm middle aged now, and I'm a different person in a lot of ways, and I just kinda kept saying "this sleep I'm getting is too good to risk any drinks" (even one can throw me; I seldom have just one, have never really seen the point), so now I've been on the wagon for like four months. I'm not saying never ever, there's plenty of situations in which I can imagine myself having some wine in my line of work, but, gosh, I'm enjoying this so much more than I did when I was working the steps in my 20s on a court card etc. it makes such a difference to my body and to my sense of balance. the one thing is I have a lot of body image issues that bother me less if I'm altered but, you know, I just kinda deal with that now.

happy for you pal

JCLC, how much were you drinking before this epiphany?

i love not drinking. i went to a rave a few weekends ago and danced my ass off for 5 hours totally sober. i got really in the zone and did some wild movements. that's the cool thing about not relying on substances to get you there, which all have some kind of see-saw trajectory. you can control how much you lose control and keep it there for as long as you want, really, i mean until you get hungry or tired or whatever.

xpost to Alfred: rather a lot, I'm a guy with appetites. generally speaking if I have a glass of wine I'm gonna have bare minimum two and often three. on the job, more than that, four nights a week maybe? maybe more at work, the work environment is pretty conducive to "why not have some drinks." I'd have wine most nights at home. I like wine! I reserve the right to have some if the mood strikes me, or to raise a glass with a friend if the occasion merits it, but going without has just yielded so many measurable benefits for me, the mood really does not arise, the sleep I'm getting is a powerful reinforcement.

i think its awesome if people can stop at 1 or 2 or 3 drinks in a night. i always wanted to be that person! wasn't in my genetic cards. thanks grandpa. thanks dad.

― scott seward, Monday, October 23, 2023 3:55 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Same except I got it from my mom. I'm like this with almost everything - alcohol, weed (tho a lot less so), nicotine, food (as times). It has, at various points, felt extremely unfair and has been a constant struggle for me so I feel this.

I was actually taking about how angry I get about that sometimes just a couple days ago. Anyway I'm not anywhere near sober. I almost never drink at home or during the week but every 2 or 3 months I get so drunk I want to die, swear I'm never going to do it again blah blah blah. I have a feeling I wil quit entirely at some point but I am not quite there yet. Congratulations to those how are though.

I've drunk too much my entire life, I've drunk every day for decades, and like others on this thread I can't stop at one, it's 3 or 4 on weekdays and probably more on weekends. However, for the past few months I've managed to stop drinking during the week and for the first time in my life have become a weekend drinker. I just couldn't do my job any more while drinking through the week. So far so good... I think this is the only solution for me, I can't give up altogether, but stopping during the week has made a big difference.

I used to drink one or two beers with dinner once a week or so, but when I was diagnosed with diabetes the doctor told me to stop because it might interfere with the pills he was putting me on. So I stopped. And I haven't had a drink now in about 20 years (was diagnosed in mid-2003). And my wife was never a drinker at all. But just the other night, she mentioned to me over dinner that although she hated the taste of beer when she was younger, she knows that there are all kinds of beers now that taste all sorts of ways and maybe we should look into buying a six-pack of beer and drinking it. So now I'm thinking that might happen sometime soon, especially if — as has been predicted — we get snow before Halloween. (We might get snow on Wednesday. And even if we don't, the temperature's gonna drop to between 15 and 30 degrees the whole second half of this week.)

I really don't enjoy being drunk, but I really do enjoy the 3 drinks mini-buzz. As a result, 3 drinks a day is pretty much average right now and I'm starting to think maybe this isn't the best thing for my life but also thinking it's nice and I'm not seeing any physical downsides. I'm going to have 10 days off next week (forced by circumstance), and I think if I notice any change I'll make some changes for 2024.

I'll have three drinks a day: a cocktail and two glasses of wine between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. give or take. On weekends I'll go out for lunch and have a couple glasses of wine. I'll drink more if I can hang out with friends or go to dinner. At a friend's I'll take a couple hits of mellow weed. If I don't go out I'll smoke a cigarette after dinner.

So far I haven't seen a downside. On weeknights I'm in bed by 9:30-10 p.m. with no effort. I wake before sunrise. I walk five miles six days a week. I still read a fuckton and my writing/publishing continues.

I write these things, I hope, not to brag but as a conversation starter: is there an age at which one should be more abstemious? The way I see it, if I feel fine and booze doesn't keep me from getting what I want done, I see no downside -- yet.

It's the "yet" that weighs on my mind. Replace the wine with beer and it's the same story. I find it's the "when" I drink (i.e. before bed) that only ever leads to (minor) problems. That 5-8pm space, a few hours before bed, is this magical time where booze seems to do no harm to me

that makes sense, like for me I'll go out to watch an NFL game at noon and have a few beers (plus touchdown shots, which unfortunately are not much of a concern for the Green Bay Packers right now), but when I do that by 6-7 PM I'll just start feeling sluggish and absent minded. if you start 2-4 hours before bed though I think you just sleep through that

The way I see it, if I feel fine and booze doesn't keep me from getting what I want done, I see no downside -- yet.

well I'm no doctor but my view is you're allowed two vices. or one if it's bad. not like crystal meth bad though. unfortunately things like sugar, junk food, and not exercising count. so if you stay active and eat well you can probably drink somewhat regularly and smoke weed and still be in good shape. in fact I'm not really convinced that weed is particularly bad at all, especially if you're just doing edibles. it kind of comes down to how much of your life you wanna live in a pleasant little haze. unfortunately for me I can't stop because my best ILX posts come while high. this is not one of them.

I'm okay on the sugar and cholesterol levels, eat red meat just once a week, hummus + tabbouleh my usual weekday lunch. Hence my attraction to the vice.

you get deducted 1 vice point for every major stability deficit you have ime.

do you go to church?

I'll usually have a drink at night, sometimes two, rarely more than that unless I am with friends. But I must admit, that Huberman podcast, referenced above and I think referenced by me before, gave me pause. It's a really good, thorough analysis of alcohol that both affirms its utter toxicity but also made me consider my own hypocrisy. That is, drinking, like smoking, is 100% bad for you. And yet, I've never smoked, because it is bad for you, but I do drink, even though it is bad for me. My rationale is that I don't drink to excess, and never have, but that's just what it is, rationalization. Probably or at least in part because I didn't really drink at all until my late '20s, maybe early '30s, and don't really detect any difference in my health or disposition now that I do, except that it didn't used to play any part in my life, and now it does. As does coffee, sugar, etc. I've often wondered what it would be like if I cut any of those things out of my life, even though I have no real reason to beyond curiosity. If the addition of any of things didn't make a dramatic difference, would their subtraction? Dunno! I have a friend that cut out caffeine and swears by it, but I'd ask myself, what exactly would I hope to achieve by following his lead?

The dangers of alcohol haven't seeped into the culture of medicine. When I respond "Once a day" to the question about smoking, my doctor says, "You shouldn't do it at all." When she asks how much I drink and I say, "Two or three a day" she doesn't respond.

To me, one of the most interesting experiences has been how little I miss being impaired. Like, I don't miss it at all. I realized how much I was using alcohol to self-medicate and to create a barrier between myself and the world, and between myself and the people in my life. I can't say it's always enjoyable not to have that curtain to be able to drop, but I'm not willing to trade that for not missing out on significant parts of my life.

is there an age at which one should be more abstemious?

I have a couple of scientist friends who work on ETOH -- and they both drink! they're not crusaders, like anybody else they weigh pleasure against cause -- but if you ask them about their research they'll say "oh yeah the more we learn about alcohol the more we know it's just really super bad for you full stop." the purported wine benefits are all gettable elsewhere.

From that Huberman podcast:

I know a number of people are going to ask, perhaps are screaming, "Is drinking good for me in any way?" For instance, many people have probably heard that resveratrol is good for people and that red wine is rich in resveratrol. I hate to break it to you but the reality is that if indeed resveratrol is good for us, and there's some debate about this - some people say strongly yes, some people say no, other people say maybe - the amount of red wine that one would have to drink in order to
get enough resveratrol in order for it to be health promoting is so outrageously high that it would surely induce other negative effects that would offset the positive effects of resveratrol. So I wish I could tell you different.

Again, I'm not here to be the bearer of bad news, but the statement I just made was confirmed by Dr. David Sinclair when he was a guest on this podcast. It's confirmed by other researchers who work on resveratrol and related pathways. I wish I could tell you that red wine is good for your health, and indeed it might be through some other mechanisms. So, for instance, there have been studies of low to moderate red wine consumption. This would be anywhere from one to four glasses per week. And I don't mean enormous glasses, I mean six-ounce glasses of red wine. And in those cases, some of the stress reduction that can be induced by consumption of red wine, maybe some of the other micronutrients and components within red wines, in particular red wines that come from particular grapes - and this gets really nuanced and, frankly, is not well worked out in the peer-reviewed literature or certainly not clinical trials, at least not that I'm aware of; tell me if you're aware of a great clinical trial on this - well, there may be some positive effects of that very low level of consumption. I'm not trying to take away anybody's red wine. I'm not trying to take away anybody's anything. I would be remiss, however, if I didn't tell you that resveratrol as the argument for drinking, and drinking red wine in particular, is just not a good one. It's just not supported by the peer-reviewed research.

The dangers of alcohol haven't seeped into the culture of medicine. When I respond "Once a day" to the question about smoking, my doctor says, "You shouldn't do it at all." When she asks how much I drink and I say, "Two or three a day" she doesn't respond.

― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, October 24, 2023 9:14 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've had a different experience. When I saw a gastroenterologist a few years ago and said that I'd averaged 10-15 drinks per week for the past few years, he became alarmed and had me tested for liver damage. It seemed like an overreaction to me (I did not have liver damage), though I did end up cutting back to about a drink a day after that. But I probably would've done that eventually, anyway, since my wife stopped drinking altogether around the same time.

!!

(I should add that she stopped drinking for unrelated reasons.)

enjoying perspectives itt

instead of leaning into microspecifics of moderate red wine being good for you (i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh) i would probably rather go the other way and look at the macro lifestyle practices of the person who has a glass of red wine a day

i bet theyre dreadfully well behaved in a host of ways tbf

mainly from the thread (my drinking is a very moderate pleasure as a rule these days) im more determined than ever to tackle my mindless sugar consumption which is almost certainly taking a heavy toll

I could try to give up sugar, but I suspect it is harder than I think to remove it from my diet.

I will not give up caffeine. That is the last hill on which I am willing to die.

ah even to drop the blatant sugar bombs that are part of my daily diet, i could live with my eating habits as far as my actual meals go i think

It's remarkable how much the pandemic upended much of this for me. Every so often I'll walk to the little brewery in town and have a beer or I'll take a glass of wine if offered one at an event, but really that's it. No interest on anything harder (or spending $20+ on one out there). Same with sugar and caffeine - when I was just working on my own at home, I kinda just forgot about it and then lost it as a habit. I mean I'll spend hours on a pho broth, but have zero interest in a cookie.

i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh

I think resveratrol (spelled wrong in the transcript I posted!) is basically just the stuff in red wine that people claim is good for you, with apparent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties.

To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well? I’m not the worst processed sugar fiend, but I live on fruit and can’t imagine cutting it out

Again, I'm not here to be the bearer of bad news, but the statement I just made was confirmed by Dr. David Sinclair when he was a guest on this podcast.

just so you know though Sinclair is a quack who hawks reservatrol in a proprietary formulation to the wealthy; I have been in a room with a bunch of his prospective clients and they were absolutely lapping up his pitch. grain of salt on any of his claims.

Jclc, is this the same Sinclair as Sinclair Method? (That is, take naltrexone when you drink so that drinking is un-fun and boring, and therefore you stop drinking because it isn't enjoyable anymore?)

I think so, I hadn't known of him before. but I have heard him make deeply unscientific claims to a credulous audience.

Huh. Yeah, I don't know who he is, but Google says he's a tenured professor of genetics at Harvard?

Heh, yeah, he totally seems like a snake oil guy, lol

Though tbf, the context of that reference is that that compound in wine is not effective in normal doses, which seems like a reasonable claim, even if he probably subsequently volunteers his special batch as the adequately dosed solution.

To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well?

I've been having a dry October. Well, only since the 7th to be precise. And I'm also making an exception tomorrow for a work event where there will be drinks. I was having on average a glass of wine or two per night, which wasn't enough for me to feel hungover or anything, but I did find it to contribute to heartburn and bloating (sometimes in combination with too much food, to be fair) so it was more for that reason I was looking to take a break.

im trying to cut down on snake oil tbf

"To clarify, are you no sugar people talking about processed sugars, or are you cutting out fruit etc. as well? I’m not the worst processed sugar fiend, but I live on fruit and can’t imagine cutting it out"

i eat fruit! it is really really really sweet to me now. i did start out drinking more sugar-free drinks to kind of wean myself from drinks with sugar in them - that's why i started a sugar-free drink thread - but if you give up processed sugar they will taste insanely sweet. doesn't matter if its monkfruit/stevia/etc. i pretty much just drink spindrift bubbly water now and occasionally i will add a little fruit juice to it. i don't know. everyone will be different. i have had sugar a little. on special occasions. sometimes when i'm buying bread at the bakery i'll get a kinda-good-for-you-fancy-oat-cookie or something? but rarely. if i do have something i make sure its actually homemade or something baked. but its crazy how much less i eat in general since i stopped with junk sugar. processed stuff is obviously designed to make you keep eating so if you eat a lot of it you tend to eat a lot of everything. the junk trained me to. and since MOST processed food has a ton of sugar in it i don't eat that stuff and that takes away that binge eating jones. its kinda cool! bodies and brains are pretty cool. i'm just happier eating simple stuff now. i have been addicted to concord grapes since they are in stores now.
i just have to get off the wheat/chip/carb train. again, when i stopped with sugar i let myself go nuts with chips and bread. i started craving butter because its sweet. but that died down. i just know that i feel WAY better. the pandemic and after - oof - i just got so unhealthy. during the pandemic i was hiding food in my bedroom! from my kids! sweet stuff. chips. i got up to 260 pounds and i had never been that big. it was harder for me to walk. my feet hurt. i didn't want to move. i knew if i didn't do something it was just going to get worse. i stopped drinking last summer and that winter is when i just stuffed myself. makes sense. i hadn't been drinking a ton by then but i was obviously replacing something. it made me depressed. deciding to exercise made a big difference too. i got a stationary bike october of 2022. i still use it. i had NEVER exercised regularly before. unless lifting lots of heavy record crates counts. when i lived in philly i walked a ton. but that was years ago.
even little things can make a big difference. i have WAY more energy now.
it has to be said. i can eat my weight in junk food and sugar. i got that from my dad too. he STILL - even though we are cooking for him and getting him better stuff since he moved in with us - can eat a TON of sugar and candy. it's insane. he's 88! but i think it's the only thing he can taste.

i will put a bit of local maple sugar on my oatmeal sometimes. or local honey. they make them both right up the road. but not all the time. just a taste. even that feels healthier.

it is just really insane how much sugar is in so much food. i mean, i knew that. but yeesh. even, like, plain yogurts or things you don't even think of as being really sugary.

instead of leaning into microspecifics of moderate red wine being good for you (i have never heard of reservatrol and i doubt many ppl have tbh) i would probably rather go the other way and look at the macro lifestyle practices of the person who has a glass of red wine a day

i bet theyre dreadfully well behaved in a host of ways tbf

this is exactly correct, and this issue plagues all nutritional epidemiological research. people who drink in moderation are wealthier, exercise more, etc etc — and controlling for these other factors is more challenging than you’d think

there was an article someone posted on ILX a while ago arguing that alcohol had a big social benefit that was very important to mental health which in turn had some physical health benefits. I think there's some truth to that. like for one my wife and I would not be together if not for Jose Cuervo. that's just a fact. which means my kids wouldn't exist. also I think a motivation for a lot of people to stay looking fit is to look good at parties and social gatherings which sometimes involve a lot of alcohol. I mean if not for drinking a lot of people just wouldn't get together as often as they do

Life would be a lot more boring without alcohol, for me at least - but limiting consumption to a reasonable amount is a constant battle...

This year so far I have not gotten wasted drunk, I will drink maybe once or twice a month and always in the company of others, I have had occasions where I managed to only have one drink (this is major for me), and I have turned down free alcohol.

Answering the age-old question, turn down for what?

it is just really insane how much sugar is in so much food.

I volunteer at a food pantry, and one day my task was to sort donated food into different categories, according to nutritional needs/guidelines. It was shocking how many at first glance healthy looking things were slotted into the third/worst category because of all the added sugars, or the spiked sodium.

“I realized how much I was using alcohol to self-medicate and to create a barrier between myself and the world, and between myself and the people in my life.”

I think (for me) it was mostly social. (That first pandemic year was another story, because it happened at home alone and was more tied to a general free floating doom/depression.)

These days I almost never drink. It’s a once every month or so thing. When I was in Seattle recently for a week I had … maybe 5-7 over the course of that week, which was a lot for me in a concentrated period of time. It’s just not enjoyable for its own sake - drunkenness, that is - and hasn’t been for decades now. A mild buzz with friends has an appeal, but I’ve noticed that in social situations where no one is drinking I’m fine with not drinking. Water or coffee or a lemonade will do nicely.

I'd like the Irish and britishes POV in here, especially the middle-agers. In Dublin a few months ago I noticed men and women who'd drop into the pub, drink a pint while reading the paper, pay, and leave. Americans...don't do that? We have such a mystique around spirits.

One factor is that beer over there is afaict often a lot lower in alcohol than beer here.

Right, but I refer to the ritual of drinking. The three cultures sure love drinking, but because of age limits we're all LET'S GET HAMMERED as if one pint/glass of wine/cocktail isn't enough or couldn't be incorporated into the routine.

we need to take it to XXXXXxxxxtreme!!!! #cravethewave

I am all about harm reduction lately. It's been really effective to just buy 1 or 2 those 19.2 oz cans instead of a 6-pack. Then I'm out and there isn't any more beer and I'm actually perfectly buzzed, to reason to have more. Folks have come over lately and I haven't had any in the fridge, which was previously unheard of.

― out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve), Monday, October 23, 2023 3:41 PM (two days ago)

i'm a fan of these tallboys too for this reason, although there seems to be something of an arms race happening here - every can at the bodega is a double-blasted IPA clocking in at close to 10% ABV, i think there's one at like 13-14%. i think of them as new 40s.

Lots of ppl binge drink like crazy here. Don't let those casual drop-in pints fool you. IME attitudes towards alcohol aren't any healthier here than in the US. At all.

Ha, my sister lives in a British college town/city, and walking around in the morning you have to carefully avoid all the piles of vomit and chips, not to mention the amount of public urination I've encountered there; "LET'S GET HAMMERED" might just be a universal motto of youth. A pint over the paper might be the more mature/middle aged manifestation, like a glass of wine with lunch.

yeah i think we have -maybe- a pub culture that supports going for one ir two, an after work or lunch pint, but that's an additional option alongside ten pint sessions not replacing them by and large ime

if i count as a middle ager, yeah the days of weekly group sessions drop away with kids and moving out of town and all that.

ive had a couple of pints with the new neighbours over the past few years and theres no question of a pissup, its out at five home at eight four drinks max- im enjoying that

a lunch pint is a great civility btw I'll stand over that one

I had to do that when I lived near BU. Was not pleasant!

Some middle aged ppl still go p hard. We had a dept party a few weeks ago. I left at 10. The remaing people all 40 plus wound up ordering shots and champagne and getting kicked out at midnight. They all looked green the next day. I would have been dead.

Obv this is a generalization and could warrant a much longer discussion. There's a lot of differences between English and American drinking cultures but I would say they're both equally fucked.

I didn’t give up sugar, but I did stop eating desserts. No cookies, cake, popsicles, pastries, candy of any kind, all of which I was addicted to. I figure eliminating that would be enough. Too much work to look at the sugar content in other stuff.

isn't it even worse in very cold places? the excess drinking. but maybe that's just to stay alive in the snow. like in russia and the like.

ENBB otm

"I didn’t give up sugar, but I did stop eating desserts. No cookies, cake, popsicles, pastries, candy of any kind, all of which I was addicted to. I figure eliminating that would be enough. Too much work to look at the sugar content in other stuff."

do you notice how very sweet things are now? i feel like my taste buds grew back or something.

Yeah Scott lots of Scandinavian places have really high rates of alcoholism.

group drinking is its own subset sureky and hard to see a healthy version if it as a rule

"few quiet pints" group is a good group to have

lol this got published today: https://lithub.com/dwight-garner-on-the-long-history-of-writers-and-americas-greatest-invention-the-martini/

i'm a fan of these tallboys too for this reason, although there seems to be something of an arms race happening here - every can at the bodega is a double-blasted IPA clocking in at close to 10% ABV, i think there's one at like 13-14%. i think of them as new 40s.

― 龜, Wednesday, October 25, 2023 8:09 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

see this is the problem. I live right by a brewery. every single beer they make is amazing. but so many of them are 7-8%.

isn't it even worse in very cold places?

I learned when I was in Iceland that ... well, first I learned that beer was illegal until, like, 1989. But then I learned that they have really, really strict drunk driving laws, basically enough to bust you at one drink. This guy I met told me about the first time he visited Iceland, back in 2000 or so. He said he went to a local pub around 8:30 or 9 and it was absolutely dead, so dead he asked what was going on. They told him to go back to his hotel, take a nap, then come back around 11:30 or midnight. He did, and he said it was a madhouse. The Icelanders would basically assign one designated driver, then the rest would get absolutely smashed and eventually return to the car to be driven around raising hell until 6am.

Iceland, of course, is famously not really as cold as you might expect. But the tales of drinking I read out of, say, Russia are legion. Especially where, as with parts of Scandinavia, it's cold, the nights are long, and there's really nothing else to do.

Iceland, of course, is famously not really as cold as you might expect. But the tales of drinking I read out of, say, Russia are legion. Especially where, as with parts of Scandinavia, it's cold, the nights are long, and there's really nothing else to do.

The fact that there are people who can have two drinks and not immediately want another is genuinely amazing to me as someone who is genetically predisposed to alcoholism. I have no internal switch or mechanism that enables me to do this. The minute I have one sip, the only reaction my body has to alcohol is that it wants more. The only time this isn't true is, weirdly, when I'm exhausted.

Any control I have over it is because I don't want to end up like my mother. It's quite frightening tbh and makes me glad I was too scared to ever get into hard drugs. I know if it wasn't for that fear I 100% would have wound up a coke addict.

same. i mean i stayed away from heroin my whole life because i knew i would love it to death. i always loved pills.

when i was on wellbutrin it totally made drinking and the idea of drinking sickening to me. just in case anyone is curious about getting medicinal help. i figure people are just reading this thread as well as posting on it.

i kinda love every drug i've ever had! other than that bathtub mescaline in high school that time. and even then i took MORE of it a day or two later for the same horrible effect. brains are weird.

The fact that there are people who can have two drinks and not immediately want another is genuinely amazing to me as someone who is genetically predisposed to alcoholism.

Yeah, this. At home my brains switches off after two drinks. It's time to grade, finish a movie, mop the floor, etc.

I feel for you guys, that must be tough to manage/navigate. I definitely hit a max pretty quickly after a couple of drinks, when it shifts from feeling good to feeling bad. And in the rare instance I have too much to drink and wake up with anything close to a hangover, another drink is the last thing I want for a couple of days. Not too different from when I eat too much food and just think, ugh, what have I done? If I eat a huge dinner I'll likely skip at least breakfast but sometimes lunch as well the next day. Brains and bodies are weird, though I wonder how much of it is also, I dunno, reverse conditioning? Like I mentioned, didn't drink until I was an adult, and neither of my parents drank or smoked or did anything like that, so maybe my psychological/physiological default is *not* drinking?

i hear the genetic disposal as a fear but as far as i can tell ive never actually had that- my issues around the booze have always been very runnof the mill learned behaviours around peer groups tbh

and ive probably noted it but my parents split the functional/non functional drinker behaviours between them so

Some people don't have it even if their parents were addicts! I wish to God I didn't but I very very clearly do and, yes, it sucks.

You'd know if you did. I knew from the moment I first tried alcohol as a late teen that my reaction to it was very different to most of my friends.

i would say that anything i did too much of was self-medication as well as liking to be high. this will sound terrible but cigarettes really did help me! i had very bad ocd/physical tics as a teen and as soon as i started smoking at 19 they faded away. anxiety. stress. alcohol always made me feel better. i never went to doctors. or got any psych help. for decades. pretty common i know.

i always wanted to do drugs alone too. so sad! and, uh, maybe a warning sign. but i've been low-level depressed on and off since i was a little kid. and i had fun over the years drinking with friends but i was happiest with a bottle of wine or some (a lot) of beer in front of the t.v. or late at night all Yessed out on ilx.

haha, sorry you guys, i still need to find a therapist!

Weirdly, the genetics skipped a generation in my family. Both of my grandfathers were alcoholics; mom's dad died sober, dad's dad died in the throes of the DTs. Neither of my parents is a problem drinker, at all. Whereas I 100% identify with ENBB's posts. Much more often than not, I cannot stop at one or two. So, it's much, much better for me not to stop.

My brother shares these tendencies, but seems to be able to stop (or at least know when he's had too much). My sister almost never drinks, she's a regular but not daily weed user.

*Better for me not to start, obvs.

The genetics thing is really interesting. My mom's mother was a pill head who killed herself and her father was a drunk. From what I've been able to gather, at least 2 of her 3 siblings were/are alcoholics. Don't know about their kids because I've never met any of my cousins on that side.

Totally get the better not to start thing. In general, because of all the above, it's much much easier for me to abstain than it is to moderate.

I really love drinking but I don't think I have been drunk-drunk in decades. I don't do the weekend binges; never have. I prefer a steady trickle that leads to maybe a pleasant buzz.

Unfortunately the result of 30 years of that has been an almost superhuman tolerance. I don't know what it would take to get me hammered, and I don't want to, because it would be really bad for me. Lately I what I want to do is keep it to two glasses of wine when on a date with my wife, and Champagne at New Year's.

Like a lot of people, COVID was not kind to me.

i hear you about the tolerance. and now i just think: jesus, it makes me tired to think about how much i would need to drink to get really drunk.

my fave thing used to be coming home from work and making dinner and getting buzzed on beer and wine in the kitchen. it made me really happy. to cook for maria and the kids and listen to some tunes. as i got older i did learn to just call it a night after we ate. sometimes.

. In general, because of all the above, it's much much easier for me to abstain than it is to moderate.

I used to be a night owl and I’d stay up till 1 or 2 getting buzzed or more. Now lights out at 10:30 and I get up and ride my bike at 5 in the morning. I’m still trying to wrap my brain around who I am now. Started seeing a therapist to sort that out. Drinking through the pandemic and a lot of personal upheaval in the past few years has left me with a lot of processing that I never got around to.

To be clear, I am not on the wagon but it's something I think about often and will prob do at some point. Maybe. I know abstinence is easier just from times I've temporarily stopped but yeah. It's a very weird feeling. At times I've been angry, jealous, and sad about it. I will say I'm better at moderation than I ever have been but really that's more a statement about how much of an actual wreck I was in my 20s and I honestly think it's mostly because I just can't hack it anymore. Went out with some gen z coworkers last month and omg. I was reminded exactly how old I am the following morning.

Because I don't really drink at home or during the week, I didn't get caught in the pandemic drinking thing but completely understand how and why other people did.

Cow_Art, I can relate. I had to cut WAY back for health reasons, and I was not prepared to get hit with 50 years of trauma and depression and anxiety all at once, with no shock absorbers (so to speak).

I've said this before, but for my own survival I just had to start thinking of myself as someone who doesn't drink. It's a lot easier now than it was seven years ago.

One of my good friends wound up in rehab this time last year after spiralling following the death of a friend who he listened to od and die while on the phone w/ him. He is in AA and has almost a year sober now. Talking to him about it has been very interesting. I might go to some al-anon meetings for adult children of alcoholics. Could be interesting, I think.

Jimbeaux - that's very interesting. I remember years ago I couldn't imagine not smoking because I just identified as a smoker. I guess sort of similar.

And so a thread about sobriety turns into a discussion of the merits of various brands of edibles LOL

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)

i mean, "california sober" is a thing, although we call it "oregon sober" here because, uh, we're oregon. also known as "west coast sober".

xxp My mom has been involved with an organization for adult children of alcoholics for years, she's found it very helpful.

I've heard very good things from several people. Will report back if I wind up going.

"I couldn't imagine not smoking because I just identified as a smoker."

i really had to learn to mourn my smoking. like it was the loss of a person. just to deal with the emptiness and grief. it was really rough. but i think dealing with it as something that was...dead?...somehow made it easier over time.

I love bars but have to stop drinking. My strategy is to pivot to non alcoholic beers. Tried this successfully on Monday. Half the price and I stayed half as long. And of course was able to go home lucid and present.

maria likes to try the non-alc beers when we go out or in stores. there are more and more good ones all the time. she's also into kombucha and hops drinks. i am not really. and non-alc beer just makes me want a beer.

Have been drinking NA beers for a while and not sure it’s a great idea. I know many in recovery warn against it; it makes a lot of ppl crave the real thing as Scott says. Tread carefully!

i heard a comedian, maybe neal brennan? talk abt non alcoholic beer
a friend in recovery had suggested he avoid it & he was like, “here’s how i know i’m ok: because if l drink three of these i don’t immediately need to go out score some coke. i think i’m ok with these.”

my youngest sibling is a big booster of ACA and AA culture in general... mind you there's no pope of AA so there's wide variance between individual groups. they've really gotten more involved with this queer aa group lately, and i'm super happy for them.

anyway, they've recommended ACA to me as well... i looked into connecting with an ACA group but my mental health condition at the time was not super conducive to that sort of thing. maybe once my DBT program is done i'll look into it again. ACA seems like a pretty interesting org... a lot more and more these days you start thinking that maybe it's not the substance itself that's the problem. like, with me, i qualify because my dad was an alcoholic, but he quit drinking before i was born. he was a shitty dad, but most of the trauma and abuse i went through i got from my mom, whose only addiction is cigarettes.

and there's varying sorts of groups... zoom, in-person, people who are strict about parents being alcoholics and people who are like, oh, your parents were shitty even though they weren't alcoholics? come on in!. and then you have groups like the LGBTQ+ exclusive groups and the one that's all about entheogen-focused recovery. which sounds weird until you realize that bill w was a really strong supporter of timothy leary towards the end of bill w's life. not my thing, personally.

---

the thing about addiction... whatever it is... to me, i feel like people focus in too much on the substance and not on the larger patterns

i used to really want to do all kinds of drugs. the main reason i didn't was because i was poor and didn't know anybody i could score drugs from. (i didn't get out much.) then i started estrogen, and i have this whole schtick where i talk about how estrogen is the best drug ever, i feel better than i ever have in my life, i love everyone, i have more energy _and_ am more relaxed at the same time, the high lasts for a week, and the only side effect is that i grew really nice tits.

i mean i guess E is just as much a drug as T is. it's more than just the drug, though, isn't it? drugs are a coping mechanism, and whether or not you're likely to do drugs has a lot to do with how much it is you need to cope with.

it still gets portrayed as an individual failing, though, and it fucking drives me crazy. with me, it's food. i know how to eat a healthy diet. my mom was a dietician. she also used food as a substitute for love. combine that with my body image issues...

and i get blamed personally because plenty of _other_ people have no problems maintaining a healthy weight and being physically active. so obviously _i'm_ the problem. and this drives me nuts because i'm a fucking data analyst, like, run the numbers, see if there's a fucking _pattern_ when it comes to obesity. you think, what, americans are obese because we're lazy, gluttonous pigs? you think maybe it has something to do with the constant insecurity we experience, with the lack of a social safety net, the sort of thing that leads you to eat when you can as much as you can, no matter whether you're hungry, because you don't know when you'll be able to eat again? i mean this is simple fucking shit, to me, but people have trouble wrapping their heads around it.

with me it's not so much that i'm food-insecure... it's just the only need i had that ever got fulfilled, so somatically, all of my needs manifest as hunger. if i eat when i'm hungry, i'm going to be obese. i have, of course, discovered that if i don't eat when i'm hungry, eventually i stop being hungry. also, i stop having the energy to get out of bed. my most successful diets were the "i'm too depressed to eat" diets. hell, i lost about 20 pounds over three months earlier this year from it. could've lost more if i'd burned more calories by, say, getting out of bed.

a lot of these diets, i know what they are, they're a way of tricking your brain, because my brain sometimes gets weird ideas about what food i need and how much i need that... aren't totally congruent with FDA recommendations. like i went gluten-free a few months back. i don't think i'm gluten-intolerant. my entire diet was just made up of gluten and i wound up feeling like shit every time i ate gluten. for whatever reason not eating gluten seems to help, so i'm going with it. i mean, there are probably other things that would help more, but those things are mostly out of my control. feeling like i have _control_ over my eating, that i'm not a contemptible, lazy glutton, that's also, you know, that's really helpful too. come to think of it.

my mom was a dietician.

and despite that i still regularly misspell dietitian, smdh

Calstars, I am a musician (of sorts) and therefore I frequently spend four or five hours in a bar with my best friends, once or twice a week. That is tough to do while being completely abstinent.

That said, I do like a lot of NA beers, especially the Athletic ones. NA Heineken is basically indistinguishable from Heineken. My other go-to is Ritual Gin Alternative. Spicy and good.

Athletic is what I was drinking on Monday, the golden ale and the 'IPA.' I think the GA was a little bit better. Would have NA Heineken in a heartbeat.

i miss wine...wine is so good.

Calstars, Upside Dawn?

That’s the one

i heard a comedian, maybe neal brennan? talk abt non alcoholic beer

A comedian friend of a friend of mine, years ago, at an open mic, had a funny bit about replacing beer with non-alcoholic beer, and it, too, becoming a habit. The punchline was something like, "my name is (redacted), and I am a non-alcoholic."

I have a friend now who readily concedes an addictive personality. He apparently used to drink, though I never saw him drink, and eventually went to AA for smoking pot, though I never saw him smoke. Lately he's been fishing a lot, and he admits that even that has started to become a problem.

I had one of those Revive kombuchas a couple of years ago and it kinda tasted like beer

I would probably drink more of the "hop water" type drinks, but they are so damn expensive for what they are - water with hop flavoring, so not even a NA beer. That must be extremely cheap to make (no malt, no grains), but they still go for $10/6-pack.

I sampled one that was called Hop Water years ago and thought it was pretty good, but it sold for the same price as actual craft beer.

I stopped drinking alcohol completely during the pandemic, but marking the end of the working day with a non-alcoholic beer is a really important element of winding down for the evening.

"Lately he's been fishing a lot, and he admits that even that has started to become a problem."

i don't play video games but years back i thought maybe it would relax me and take my mind off things so i found one that i liked and i played it for an equivalent of months, made maria hate the sight of it, got tennis elbow, and became 8th in the world on Playstation.

Alcohol was never more than a means to an end for me, non-alcoholic booze just seems like the worst of all worlds. Unpleasant taste and I don't become more sociable? Sign me up.

If the NA equivalent of tobacco existed, though, I'd be in. Standing outside the bar smoking with the other remaining reprobates, now that's a pleasant time.

i don't play video games but years back i thought maybe it would relax me and take my mind off things so i found one that i liked and i played it for an equivalent of months, made maria hate the sight of it, got tennis elbow, and became 8th in the world on Playstation.

― scott seward

i got addicted to one of the match 3 games, i've had to quit it cold turkey a couple of times now. never spent a dime on it... something about a box that flashes pretty colored lights at me and tells me i'm a winner in response to my performing trivial actions, god, i could do that all day and night

so in unrelated news it turns out that i have pretty low self-esteem

If the NA equivalent of tobacco existed, though, I'd be in. Standing outside the bar smoking with the other remaining reprobates, now that's a pleasant time.

― papal hotwife (milo z)

i've had ex-smokers tell me that the NA equivalent of smoking is like literally breathing, that a lot of the reason smoking cigarettes feels good is because it requires you to breathe mindfully

i've never smoked tobacco but breathing mindfully _does_ feel good. that should be a habit, replace "smoke breaks" with just being able to step outside for ten minutes to breathe mindfully with other people. but it isn't, because we live in a dystopia.

Non-alcoholic beer definitely helps for me. There's a ritualistic aspect to my drinking, I get home after a day's work and sitting down with a drink is a signal that the working day is over. Having a NA beer kind of helps with that.

If the NA equivalent of tobacco existed

there are all kinds of herbal 'smoke mixes' out there, but it's probably just like smoking a campfire or something, likely not very satisfying

Smoking for me was the whole ritualistic aspect beyond either the communal or solo time-out aspect - packing the pack, flipping around a lucky one, gotta find my lighter, no lighter, oh hey man you got a lighter I can borrow, people bumming, pointing with a cigarette in your hand.

Too bad about the whole waking up feeling like an elephant sat on my chest and shit down my throat aspect (and cancer/etc.).

When I was 18 the head shop sold catnip cigarettes (I think they were supposed to get you 'high' but we just thought it was a funny thing). 12 hour headache city.

Non-alcoholic beer definitely helps for me. There's a ritualistic aspect to my drinking, I get home after a day's work and sitting down with a drink is a signal that the working day is over. Having a NA beer kind of helps with that.

Same here. I don't drink very much anyway - but I had to cut down on drinking after a concussion (which I got while sober!).

After a while, the rush of pulling a cold beer of the fridge after work was the same for me, whether it was alcholic or not, so I started sticking to non-alcoholic more often.

I quit cigarette smoking cold turkey in early 2006 and never really looked back, not interested anymore at all

Occasionally will hit the spliff (weed & norwegian shag) at band practice, that's about it

I do have an old pipe that I used to like to take on camping trips a few years ago, but I haven't even seen pipe tobacco in drug stores in several years and I don't care enough to go to an actual tobacconist

if you guys start talking about how wonderful smoking is i might have to skedaddle!

catnip cig talk is fine by me though. when was the last time someone had a clove cigarette?

i could never smoke cigars because i couldn't stop myself from inhaling.

i knew i had to go the edible route with weed after i quit smoking. too much nostalgia for tobacco.

vaping just made me want the real thing too.

big fan of breathing mindfully here. breathing is how we access god imho. did you know the most efficient way to deliver oxygen to your bloodstream is to breathe through your nose? i want to tell everyone about all of this but no one gives a fuck lmao. maybe i'm turning into a pseudo-spiritual crank but no i don't go to church and never will thank you very much.

re smoking, i'm romantically involved with someone who's abroad for a few weeks. he's been smoking cigs in video chats (do as the locals do). thank god it's been over 4 years since i had my last cig. i have literally no cravings now. i don't bat an eye watching him. i just feel a little concerned. the real reason i finally quit smoking was because i wasn't getting enough oxygen. big cause of me feeling depressed. i had asthma as a kid. things you learn or suspect that aren't in the dsm.

My weed intake was already significant but went up when I stopped drinking. I stopped drinking cuz I was trying to find what was triggering my migraines, and that is apparently one of them. They only started after having Covid. Weird.

I don’t really enjoy NA beer but I bet if I looked hard enough I’d find one I liked. I just drink a 12 of seltzer every two days. Sometimes I like a tart lemonade.

In terms of taste, NA beers have improved massively over the past few years.

I have never successfully smoked a cigarette or cigar. Just can't fricking do it.

Pipe tobacco was a moderately fun affectation when I was an English major on the East Coast wearing a tweed sportcoat with elbow patches. (Not even kidding here, I literally did precisely those things. Walking cliché, 1992 me.)

Even for weed I prefer edibles.

cigs never did much for me, thank god. make me cough a lot too and it's hard to get the smell out of your clothes. but I love the ritual of smoking, or at least taking a break from a noisy, busy atmosphere to chill outside for a few minutes and have more intimate conversations. eventually I realized it ain't that weird to go outside to hang out and just not smoke.

I mean in general I guess I'm lucky I didn't have that addiction gene. or maybe I do but it's not as strong as some others have it. in my early 20's pretty much everyone I knew drank a ton, smoked cigs and weed. which eventually led to harder drugs, up until one guy discovered this thing called "fentanyl" and promptly overdosed on it. he also happened to be the plug for a lot of us so most of the group just had to quit cold turkey. not that getting high was all that fun anymore when one of your best friends dies. some people struggled really hard with it and came out the other hand as totally different people, for better or worse (I mean, obviously it's "for better", but a couple of them just won't have anything to do with anyone else in that group anymore, which is sad). and then for some of us it was just like, eh, whatever. I like weed because you're still present, you can still do stuff and you still feel pain and all that, it just bothers you much less. the Percs I was taking just papered over everything. it was nice but you felt like you lost control of yourself somewhat and I didn't like that feeling.

It has suddenly occurred to me that I could likely make my own hop water pretty easily. I used to make beer so I have all the equipment, just boil some water, add hops, let cool, and bottle. I may even have some 20-30 year old hop pellets around.

when was the last time someone had a clove cigarette?

Lol as I was reading through this and M mentioned the catnip cigs I thought of cloves. When I was a freshman in college going to the smoke shop and buying cloves felt so cool. Leave me alone, I was 17. ;) There were so many rumors around them too. Do they actually cut your lungs? Who knows! They did taste amazing. That I remember.

Get a free vial of patchouli oil with every purchase of cloves

and some incense.

there seems to be something of an arms race happening here - every can at the bodega is a double-blasted IPA clocking in at close to 10% ABV, i think there's one at like 13-14%. i think of them as new 40s.

I feel your pain, brother. There are exactly two non-double IPA cans I can buy at the bodegas, Lagunitas and Deschutes Fresh Squeezed, everything else is 8% or more. And forget about a 19.2 lager or pilsner! So not gonna happen.

clove cigarettes are mostly tobacco anyway, they don't really count as a substitute

This is a thread for ILXors OFF THE WAGON (and for the Off the Wagon Curious)

^does this deserve its own thread or should I just use it as a subtitle in next year’s at the bar thread

Lol I was never suggesting cloves as a tobacco alternative just to be clear.

could never get cloves here, but I was in NYC for my 26th birthday and met a girl on the way back from a club in alphabet city who gave me a box of Djarums and I thought they were fucking delicious. I bought a packet of some other brand and they were awful though, it was just that brand I liked maybe

Dajarums where the gold standard. I don't think I ever got any others. That said, I prob bought them less than 10 times in my life but, yes, those are the good ones.

I just realised I should not be on this thread lol

I realized something that I neglected to mention upthread re: not drinking. One of the last pre-pandemic events I went to in 2019 was the memorial service for my ex-mother-in-law (I was married 2008-2009). She had a pretty high-end career and upper-class lifestyle but once she retired she made up for lost time and hit the bottles harder than most broke punkers I've seen. In ten years, she was dead from total liver collapse.

Every time I smoked a clove I was too drunk to remember it... but I definitely knew the next day.

Trip report, I was able to control my intake to a surprising and satisfying degree Friday and yesterday, happy about that

Small steps that feel good are good amirite

Yes indeed : )

I'm 17 days into a mini-wagon. Not a big boozer, particularly, but have had a few weekend benders of late. I've been low-grade ill, so not really felt the full benefit; even still, the clarity and *readiness* on weekend mornings is a revelation.

Good for you, hope it goes well ❤️

The weekend morning thing is amazing, truly.

zzz

Thanks for the good wishes gyac.

My mini-wagon is now 5 weeks. If I thought I could get through Christmas without it, I'd 100% continue. Not missing it in the slightest.

Because I don't know where else to post it: I recently listened to Scatman John's first album for the first time, and was nonplussed when it contained a song ("Take Your Time") that any AA would recognize as being very obviously about AA.

Favorite AA song: Vic Chesnutt, “Stupid Preoccupations”

Anyone have experience with Refuge Recovery? I’ve been listening to the podcasts which are kinda like guided meditations and a nice alternative to AA dogma.

a little, that mirrors my take. I have a book on it but never went to a meeting.

I went to some Refuge meetings c.2017-2019 and I liked it well enough. The one near me was a very small (probably <5 people on average) weekly meditation meeting at a zen center out in the country, but when I visited Asheville there were groups with 30 people meeting every day and taking meetings into treatment facilities and stuff.

Unfortunately, not long after that, the Refuge Recovery community split in two for reasons that were not entirely clear to me -- I remember hearing at the time that it had something to do with the founder/author of their book sounding off on social media & wading into public controversies, but never tried to confirm it. All I know is I woke up one morning and half the meetings on the website were gone. I worried they had closed their doors for good, but it turns out most of them formed a new fellowship calling itself Recovery Dharma.

The People's Recovery Front vs. the People's Front of Recovery.

the founder Noah Levine was also accused of some sexual malfeasance of some sort or another, not sure if that had anything to do with this schism you describe

Yeah, that's right. I dunno why I thought it was social media posts, my brain must have been busy that day.

I think (I hope) the org that continued under the name Refuge Recovery no longer has Levine in any kind of leadership position today

...nope I am very wrong about that

He can always blame it on booze

feeling super relieved right now

an addict in my life went to a recovery group for the first time recently

they had a lot of anxiety about it. last time they went to a group they were in a different city that didn't have a lot of queer-focused recovery groups. even though there are plenty of queer-focused recovery groups around here, they were pretty hesitant

turned out a good friend of mine was there. it just helps to know you're not alone, y'know?

Big time

Also helps not to use the word “addict” imo

Like I would be quite displeased if someone referred to me as “a cancer in my life”

my bad, i'm new to all this language... you're right that it's essentializing, i don't see them that way

tbf "addict" but is a term i've heard frequently self-applied within the recovery community

I went to some Lifering meetings, way more mellow and less performative than AA ime but maybe that was just my group. Also learned about wood turning.

Ime the important thing is just to have “fellow travelers” to go through the shit with, not necessarily following some recipe

I have no problem calling myself an addict. In fact, I think it's important.

That's just me. Your mileage may vary.

same. Good to recognize it, no?

this is probably one of those speak for yourself but not others kind of thing….

lol jimbo otm iow

same. Good to recognize it, no?

It has been for me. I had to rewire my brain.

I’m in the “I’ve had an SUD” camp, which is tbf pretty nu-skool

SMART Recovery is another AA alternative. CBT based approach.

SMART recovery is good, I got a lot out of it (including the motivation I needed to actually get something out of AA meetings, by "identifying not comparing"). They do discourage the use of labels like "alcoholic" and "addict" in their meetings.

I say "alcoholic" when I'm at AA, I say "addict" when I'm at DAA, I don't go to NA, and when I'm talking to normies I say "a sober person in long term recovery, and what that means for me is I haven't needed to drink or take drugs since (MM/DD/YYYY)"

...unless they're British normies, then I go with DD/MM/YYYY

I've had some pretty good non-drinking stints over the past few years but I'm still mostly running behind the wagon trying to keep up once in a while. One tactic that's helped me cut down when I'm out at bars is for every beer I drink I have to follow it up with a bitters and soda, which I've found to be better than NA beers and hop water for scratching that drinking itch. Some of my issue is that I will down any beverage in front of me pretty quickly, my bladder's capacity being the only thing that really slows me down. I always play it off as saying "I'm a thirsty guy" but it's probably more a compulsion issue than thirst (I'm also a very fast eater). Last night I went out to a show and felt like I was drinking a decent amount and when it came time to close my tab I was pleasantly surprised to see just 2 beers on it.

really glad to be on the wagon at this particular moment

Yep

Last time he won I was deep in whiskey.

Feeling less physically damaged this time for sure.

feeling good about being wagon-curious at the moment, consciously reducing intake

It was a really good morning to not be hungover

otm

i behaved like a drunken horse’s ass on here when he won last, grateful to also be on the wagon

went on the wagon at the beginning of september without any real commitment about it, just taking a little break but with permission to myself to do whatever I want -- but I'm methodical and a creature of habit and now it's been those two months and I'm very, very happy with my choice in this season

11 weeks sober.
whenever a friend has found out i am booze free the immediate response is : 'oh is it a health thing ?'
answer : nope, i am relatively healthy, but ta for the concern !
after which i then explain it's cos i have been shortlisted to be a possible blood stem ceel donor, and until i find out if i am selected i decided to give my liver some quiet time.
not totally into this long term, but has been an interesting couple of months.

ceel = cell

I thought sobriety would be dreary but it isn't, really; I have plenty of fun (plus THC).

It is, admittedly, harder to endure bad stuff happening without anaesthesia. There's no buffer zone.

But the anaesthesia proved too costly, and the side effects came very close to killing me. So, wagon it is.

Three weeks now with only two dinnertime glasses of wine in that time. Health concerns etc etc so have cut out pretty much all fun comestibles ( salt, animal fat, alcohol, coffee) - maybe for good. First week was *rough* but now feel really great, sleeping straight thru 8-9 hours and all that good stuff.

I have plenty of fun (plus THC).

not a legal/easy(ish) option for uk'rs.

and yeah, the big WTF thing for me was the change re sleep.
had no idea it was a thing until i chatted to some other folks about it.

yes the sleep is so so key. I knew this, I've had dry spells, but here in middle age it's so good.

Pro tip: if on the wagon, just stay there. Pain in the ass to get back on. Don't make yourself jump on it repeatedly.

I've been really down since the election. I wouldn't say I've been tempted to start drinking again (2.5 years!) but it has crossed my mind more lately than it has since I stopped. I know it's not for me and I have enough people around to support my decision; I couldn't hide it if I started again and it would be embarrassing.

Still, it would be nice to not give a shit about things for a few hours.

xpost Easier said than done!

I haven't had a drink since March. It's amazing how the cravings died down. I never considered myself an alcoholic, but looking back I would always look forward to the "relief" of a drink, like its absence was felt internally as tension and deprivation. Now that feeling is gone. So weird.

Since March for me too. I have fond memories of drinks and drinking, but it's just not something I can ever do again, healthwise. I'm really into the whole "not dying" thing rn.

Have to remind myself that it gets easier after 3 weeks and by month 3 the wagon is on autodrive.

Thanks to some difficult family stuff and some associated, very heavy, resentment that I’ve accumulated over the years, I’ve recently leaned into AA. Have been a casual attendee on and off for ~ 10 years and had a slip-up almost exactly a year ago. I know the program is not for everyone but if you find a good group, it can be a great support network. I have a sponsor for the first time and he seems pretty cool and hands-off so far. No nonsense, just do what he recommends and see what happens. That’s his plan and he seems happy to have a sponsee who’s a little older and been sober a while but is new to the program. Maybe that’s rare.

I was ill over Christmas so didn't drink much, but had a couple of sessions between Christmas and New Year where I felt so awful the next day I thought, you know what? it's time for a break.

34 days today and I feel so much better. My diet is better, (broadly) I'm sleeping better, I'm meditating daily, my mood is stable (ish) and I'm reading lots. The biggest thing for me is the continuity: booze - hangovers in particular - causes lacunae, almost like reified breaks in my neural networks. Admittedly, I was at the end of the longest term of my life in a new job, but I read stuff I'd written in the middle of December and couldn't remember writing it, or what I was writing about. Everything is currently much clearer and sensible and am enjoying it very much.

Boredom always gets me. Always. Fingers (and neuronal pathways) crossed I can stick with it.

good luck, hope it keeps opening up for you!

Great job chinaski!!

Thanks map and tobo!

How are my fellow wagon riders (and wagon-curious folks) doing?

Because clearly there was never a better time, or a worse time, to be AF AF.

One year on Wednesday.

(If you're into that sort of thing, it is Ash Wednesday. The anniversary of my liver transplant is Good Friday, and Easter the anniversary of my being able to speak and breathe on my own. Coincidences, but fitting enough to be mildly amused by.)

While it has worked out pretty well for me, I can't say that I recommend the "almost dying" method.

Bitters and tonic … a friend of mine who is older and wiser said that’s his go-to, and I have been going to it recently.

Things are good here. 3.5 years since I've had a drink and no real temptation to go back to it. Quitting booze coincided with moving to a new town so the social aspect of it is the hardest. Making friends in a new place as a 48 year old parent is hard enough without social lubrication.
In the past I would be a little nervous before a gathering but as I drank I would relax and get into it. Now I'm ready to leave after 15 minutes and being around people who are tipsy for the most part is a total bore.

Soda water and lime, constantly.

I've bored on elsewhere about my battles with what you describe Cow_Art.

I have various periods of abstinence and am currently on day 63 of my latest (not that I'm counting). As you say, social situations are the hardest. I didn't realise for SO long how much booze enabled me to get through. There's another element to that, of course: enjoying the drug aspect of booze - what it enables me to be. I crave *that*. Part of dreading social situations now is knowing I'm not that version of myself, the version everyone knows and responds to. Standing around feeling bored of myself (and others). Working on finding a social self separate from booze feels precisely that: work. I don't have the werewithal to find it, mould it, whatever the verb is. Easier to go the tried and tested route of dear sweet booze.

So anyway, there's my current dance. Good luck to everyone!

hello there wagon! *steps on*

i have a lot going on right now, to the point where stopping drinking is actually like item #4 or #5 down the list of crises, big changes, things i'm working, fears, etc.

i don't mean to minimize it. i have problems with drinking, and some of you on ilx have made that clear, too over the years. but also, i have already made big changes in my drinking over the past 2 years - cutting down to about 2-3 times a week, eliminating the "just a couple beers before bed" daily routine. in two different months, i stopped drinking entirely, and it wasn't that difficult for me (weed helped/helps me).

but also, each time i've stopped drinking, i've known and even told other people that it was a pause, and that really where i want to get to is a state where i can have a healthy relationship with alcohol, where i can enjoy a glass of wine when i'm out with friends, or a couple beers at a gig when i'm nervous and socially anxious. i think that's just fine, and i see how other people in my life can engage with alcohol in that way. but what i know from experience is that, even when i settle into that kind of pattern, when i get a weekend by myself, a couple days off with few responsibilities, i still find myself headed to the gas station to get that 6-pack, or compromising on a couple tall boys, and just downing them like the old days.

the most impetus for getting on the wagon is that, during a very difficult time (that is ongoing) in which people around me have been getting personally involved in the most important relationship of my life, something that was mentioned was that sometimes in public with my partner i interrupt them and i'm too loud, "especially when you're drinking". i try so hard - i really do - to not talk loudly and interrupt people, and i've been working on getting better at that for so long. it's so frustrating for it to still be a noticeable problem to others even when i really am thinking about it so often. but i believe it, and i esp believe that drinking makes it worse. out of the long neverending list of things i'm working on, cutting out alcohol is an "easy" one for me right now, a straightforward action that is more than just words or a promise to myself or others.

there's mucn more to say about me and alcohol. but when i made the decision to stop drinking i had already been dry for 5 days, and now it's been a couple weeks. my journey on this has been different than many others, we're all different, but i expect that it will be less like a straight line and much more like an undulating struggle, like most things.

sorry to hop in and tell my life story but i'm sure context is important for this thread! will be rereading, and if anyone has a "highlight" they'd like to...er highlight, out of all these posts, i'd love to read some of the more powerful insights that i'm sure this thread has provided so far. thanks quincie for inviting me too <3

*pours you all a seltzer*

As a loud interrupter myself, I think some of that is cultural and/or psychological and it isn’t an inherent problem. Most of my close friends are also loud interrupters as are several members of my family. But, if people you care about don’t appreciate this, and you don’t want to be like that … then do what you feel will get you there.

As in, we are like this sober…

Great job z_tbd. Long-winded sharing can be extremely therapeutic and can lead to all sorts of unexpected benefits.

This morning was sunny and warmer and more spring-like than I anticipated. Biked to a favorite AA meeting and was reminded for not the first time how nice it is not to be hungover.

Good stuff z_tbd. I think 'gentle feedback' about things like being a 'loud interrupter' is generally pretty good for us as humans. Being aware of that stuff is great for social situations. I say this as someone who 100% takes things too deeply but... the key is not to take it too deeply, not to see it as some marker stamped indelibly on one's soul. It is simply that: an observation from people who care about you and like being with you. If you can acknowledge it and maybe make it part of your discourse then that's good, right?

And amen to not being hungover. Every weekend morning is still quietly astounding in that regard.

i think it's been like 6 years now. it's funny to me that i never kept track of my sober anniversary.

i am "california sober" tbf. i might be a tad dependent on weed but no real problems so far so.

the biggest step for me in feeling more whole lately is a meditation practice. i'm pretty devoted to it. it's wonderful.

i'm an interruptor. i've always had difficulty locating switch points in conversations and, like, smoothly entering. burning thoughts jump into my mind right after someone shares something and i have to relate it sometimes. but being sober, i'm more judicious about when i allow that to happen. i feel like part of the deeper reason why people don't like an interruptor is that it communicates that the person isn't really present to the reality of everyone else in the conversation. i feel like sometimes what factors in to being an interruptor is a kind of social anxiety, which i definitely have. the practice of being present along with the more spiritual aspects of that are starting to make it a little easier for me to relax in social situations. i still get anxious and my old self-isolating coping mechanisms are still mostly in place. but loosening. who out there doesn't need to be a little looser?

i wouldn't have mentioned the talking over/interrupting thing, except that it happened to be the straw that finally broke the camel's back. i do think drinking makes it worse and more prominent, and it is something i'm working on and always will, but it's way down the list of my problems to address. sarahell otm about cultural/family/regional influences. certain parts of my family, deep longtime friends of mine, it's just in their fabric of being. and of course, elsewhere - i was watching “On Becoming a Guinea Fowl", set in Zambia, and an essential part of that movie is just all the voices, the talking, the talking over, the interruptions. it's a large family and they all have a lot to say!

however, i do think that side effect of drinking - taking my tendency to talk too much and too loudly, and making it more pronounced, in a way that effects others negatively - is similar to another more important thing i'm working on, which is being aware that when i'm going through intense emotional conflict, constant negative self-talk, worrying about what others think so much, etc etc - it's spilling out onto other people and hurting them, without me even realizing it. drinking is not the root cause of that but it makes it worse, it prolongs it, it leads to me not being able to exactly recall the ways that i hurt people (but still believing that i did, leading back to more negative self-talk, cycle continues)

negative self-talk and the kind of hole in the soul underneath it is something i've always struggled with too. and yeah, when it's going on, there's nothing i can really do to hide it and it spills over onto other people. therapy has helped somewhat in the past. but really the only thing i've found that has actually made it better for real is meditation. i feel like with all these kinds of things--negative self-talk, existential dread, self-involved ego trips, drinking to ease the pain, etc.--there is a wound that underlies it all. and meditation is the only thing i've found that takes care of the actual wound. i mean it's great to stop drinking. there's the old canard that drinking is a symptom and not the disease. aa is probably a path to a similar kind of "thing to fill the hole" in the same way meditation is.

heard that map, and i do think meditation can be excellent and so helpful for certain people.

right now i'm kind of grappling with being told by a few people that they think i might benefit from looking at ocd treatments. i've learned a lot about ocd in the past week, i haven't seen a professional yet, and tbh i don't exactly see myself as an ocd person, at least not yet. but also, i've learned that there is no typical ocd behavior, and that people with ocd have symptoms - fearful obsessions, compulsive reactions - that change throughout life. i haven't been thinking about my fears of finding out that people dislike me and are making fun of me behind my back (something that is almost always false but which unfortunately is sometimes true, both on slack a few years ago (part of what set me off, along with drinking) and in my personal life the past few weeks) as ocd obsessions, but i think it is true that these fears are unwanted and consistent and they just come up again and again (but not as frequently and life-disruptingly as in clinical ocd, i don't think), and i do have compulsive behaviors, thoughts that i end up relying on distract me from that.

after reading a bit about ocd and thinking about how it might apply to me, pretty much immediately i saw it. i was in a really emotional discussion with my partner and finally, for once, i could almost get some distance and see how i was acting - my language sped up, i started talking about 5 different things at once in the hopes of bringing them together into some sort of full circle point which was never made, i talked to loud, i made myself anxious just by speaking, etc. a typical z_tbd post, in other words, but for some reason this time i could really see it from above, like a near-death experience, and it just made me curl up and completely break down.

...and now that i'm doing it again, a bit, just the first parts of it, and i'm seeing how it looks, again, i'll stop there and do the ocd stuff somewhere else (seeing my psychiatrist later this month and will probably be upping my lexapro, along with more therapy)! but yes, drinking does not help anything like this

and map, sorry to completely forget my point there, but i think i wanted to say that meditation is awesome, but right now i feel like a lot of my troubles are completely in my head, both on unwanted thoughts and also the mental things i do to try to escape (often playing out as discussions in my head; talking to myself). so right now meditation seems very hard haha

Hey I'm doing a lot better with enjoying my days (and nights) of sobriety! I have more of them and my ability to sleep has definitely improved. I start yawning around 10pm now! Amazing. I still drink (and smoke) some days, but this past week I got it down to about every-other day only.

Sometimes I gently push myself by just not making that trip to the wine store. Bad weather helps, when I don't want to go out.

Emotionally I recognize that somewhere in the middle of the day/early evening I feel pressure to have wine on hand in order to relax and to have something to "look forward to" at the end of my day. But if I can get through that, I find myself in a cozy evening situation where there's tea and maybe I cook an actual dinner and eat it while watching tv (rare for me), and then I go to bed early and do breathing exercises and enjoy being relaxed. Feels a bit better in the morning, maybe not that much (I got scarily good at processing about a bottle of wine a day and not feeling "hungover") but I might try for more than 3 days in a row and see if brings cumulative benefits.

xp my partner has adhd and meditation isn't really something he can do either. no point in doing something that just feels hard to the point of hostile. meditation as a 'thing to do' can be daunting because if you look it up there are like these things you have to do to "do it right". i feel like anything you can do where you are not super distracted or doing other shit and just being with your mind for a few minutes, observing it, breathing, can be really helpful and you don't have to call it 'meditation'. my partner likes to walk around the park and listen to buddhist stuff on youtube.

xp One thing I notice is that if my evenings are disrupted by unexpected happenings or unrestful people, it's difficult to be quiet and calm down the way I need to, in order to be tired and relaxed by bedtime. That invites reflection on how drinking has helped me self-soothe and find rest when my life was more chaotic or I had problematic people or situations adding anxiety that I couldn't otherwise disperse.

I also read or heard something recently that reminded me that drinking increases dopamine production, which offers some insight into the behaviors of my ex who would drink compulsively if his ADHD was cut off from other strategies. It was a huge problem whenever he had "down" time with lower stimulation levels (like while visiting my family who are very quiet and good at parallel play like reading or playing music or doing hobbies at home). He was incapable of restfulness and incapable of being quiet.

I've been resting a lot in the past year, more than normal in my life. It's nice.

Z, I mentioned this somewhere upthread but I'll say it again because it was a big turning point in realizing that I was better off without alcohol. If I had a stressful day, I felt like I needed a drink to chill out. And that felt good. Over the years, especially after having kids, I noticed that it took less and less for me to feel like it was a stressful day. At some point it clicked that I was training myself to have bad days because I was rewarding myself for it.

I spent a few years trying to mitigate my drinking or only drink this much or at certain times, but the rules would alway erode and I would go back to drinking whenever I felt I needed it which was most nights. One of the best things about not drinking was ending the internal conversation about my drinking habits. "Have I had too much? Is it okay to have another? I won't drink tomorrow. Well, maybe one." The constant second guessing of myself was exhausting and I didn't realize it until I was done with it.

Yeah the intrusive thoughts/ocd-adjacent stuff is what makes meditation not a thing for me. I have had to do deep listening exercises in the past, and at best, I end up with cool creative ideas that I want to explore asap … even though we are supposed to keep listening/meditating for longer … and I end up feeling resentful unless I do a strategic polite exit.

In terms of the reward/relaxation thing … I take baths now. It’s really great in summer.

just dropping in to say I love my neurofeedback sessions, which also help with addictions. the book "The Body Keeps The Score" describes neurofeedback as "meditation on steroids" which is apparently what I need rn

At some point it clicked that I was training myself to have bad days because I was rewarding myself for it.

yes I appreciated that insight as well!

i haven't opened the us politics thread since november, does that count for anything?

solidarity to everybody here. i am 4 years completely sober, occasioned by a bad liver staging that scares the bejeezus out of me. i should be eating better too, but y'know. every morning i wake up and look in the mirror for signs of jaundice.

in the decade preceding the diagnosis, i don't think i ever drank more than a couple of (single) drinks per week. so, it was easy to move from that low frequency to zero. only regret is that i had is that i started getting into single malts just a bit before i quit, and i had to give away a cool library of scotches.

i guess this means i've been mostly-sober for 15+ years.

in my 20s, though, i had weird bouts with alcohol abuse and random-ass pills. nothing consistent, no pattern to speak of. big gaps between, and short in duration. usually started with whatever meds or booze were around, no preference. it was lazy and accretive; i'd have a little of this, which would lead me to a little more of this, and then some of that, and quite a bit of a third thing and all of a sudden i'd realize i was in a bad way and hadn't been straight for a couple of days, and i'd and stop for months in horror. this is when i posted on the board a lot, ca. 2000-2010. it's probably easy to tell. and it's easy to look back from middle age and say 'yeah, there was something self-destructive about my youth' in kind of a detached way. but actually it wasn't destructive per se, or explicitly suicidal/depressive. i think it was more like self-reduction. binging/purging of the mind.

as a young guy, i had too much noise in my head. somebody else might call it manic, anxious, neurotic... just a whole cluster of stuff that could be pathologized, if i didn't find that reductive and paternal. in retrospect, i'd call it 'electricity' or 'static' ... just an untamed brain that was always lurching from thing to thing. and i felt i could reduce it - and the exhaustion that came with recursive thought-patterns - with booze. this is what i was chasing when i was using: a cessation of internal distraction. it's why i used to like slow day-drinking with friends: i'd idle down to a pace that was closer to 'mindful' than during the rest of my life.

age and maturity (i hope) have brought, somewhat naturally, the same effect. the benefit is that age doesn't come with the same self-loathing.

when i was at my worst, having binge-y episodes that lasted a few days, with sober intervals of a few weeks, i thought of my life like an ekg pattern. sober sober sober sober, get high, feel low and repent, sober sober sober sober, repeat. i think my attitude at the time was that i should seek to extend the sober intervals. sometimes i felt that a big-enough drink would 'cure' me for a bit. but what i didn't consider, for a very long time, was that i had still committed to the rhythm. for every interval had some kind of end, n days in the future.

sometimes i felt that a big-enough drink would 'cure' me for a bit. but what i didn't consider, for a very long time, was that i had still committed to the rhythm. for every interval had some kind of end, n days in the future.

Other than two halves of (very nice) beer at the start of April, I'm still sober. I'm sort of letting myself off because it was a highly pressurised social situation and I eventually capitulated, five hours into the night, and didn't really drink the second half anyway. I know it's cheating, but I'm counting 114 days because, if anything, it affirmed my current course. How is everyone else doing?

If it's of any use, I listened to this yesterday and found it useful: https://maudsleylearningpodcast.buzzsprout.com/277019/episodes/16981498-e120-how-why-i-stopped-drinking

Friday was the anniversary of my liver transplant; at this point even if I wanted to drink I still wouldn't. It's become like a squared circle, like sprouting wings and flying. Just laughably logically impossible.

I had to have a very very difficult and potentially explosive conversation with a family member yesterday. She is also in the process of getting truly sober (I’ve got about 10 years but am just now ‘working a program’). We almost fell off the rails a couple of times but damn I am very glad that we both had the tools of sobriety. We kinda nailed it. It would have been a very different outcome if this were a couple of years ago.

I’ve had some slips, but they were useful and hell no I do not reset to Day 1. It’s MY wagon and I’ll drive it my way.

100% \m/

I dig that quincie and will be stealing it to pass off as my own. And good work, tobo. Stay strong.

Hit 7 months today. Being sober isn't getting old, so I'm going to stick with it. How are folks getting on?

starting a break as of yesterday, for multiple reasons (one is financial, NGL)

I thought sobriety would be dreary; it isn't.

Weedibles remain helpful because I still crave having a vice in my life. Need the option of SOME form of vacation from being me. I'm pretty exhausting (even from the outside - just ask my wife) and I just can't do it 24/7/365.

This September will be three years, still happy to be done with it.

nice! yeah ymp i feel the same about my edibles, also caffeine. i rarely even think about how i don't drink anymore.

Same here. I went stone cold sober for almost a year and I could feel myself calcifying into my father. My wife and therapist were both fine with me being CA sober. Everyone is happier that way.