C/D: Friends with Babies

In the past two months, many friends have had babies, and I can't help but feel like I'm repressing my true feelings to them, which are:

I don't care about your baby, and I wish you hadn't been so selfish as to effectively end our friendship for your egotistical experiment.

i have high hopes for this thead.

That said, the repression will continue, and yes, I will be making two sets of friends dinner over the next week so they can focus on their new babies.

But my true feelings remain:

I don't care about your baby, and I wish you hadn't been so selfish as to effectively end our friendship for your egotistical experiment.

good thing about friends with babies is that you don't have to see lots of them if you don't want to because they now have a baby and no longer have lives

but if you want to see them you can make the effort

https://live.staticflickr.com/3424/3192435737_6d81f4bb88.jpg

this is a test and I hope you are using a number two pencil instead of black ink

calstars, i just read your posts on the Children in Bars thread.

i am personally in favor of mandatory drugging of children under the age of four before bringing them on airplanes.

omg i entered this situation for the first time about 3 weeks ago

visited them the other day, it was cool, i held satsumas before the baby's face and made loads of unhelpful suggestions

commiserations table

I have several friends who've disappeared over the last couple of years because of babies.

I'm not mad at them, though, any more than friends who've moved across the country or just occupy a different place in life than I do/we used to (ie my friends who married into money and now occupy a different wealth strata). And I hope they're not mad at me for not particularly wanting to hang out around a couple of infants or my inability to pop off for a two week vacation.

Seems like every decade milestone birthday for me has been spent with an entirely different group of friends so maybe I'm just overly comfortable letting relationships wither until they're just the occasional check-in (or less).

yeah. only have a few friends i've seen on a continuing basis for the past ten years or so.

(part of this is kids and part is economic and social stuff, obv.)

your friends' dogs and cats feel the same way ;_;

i'll take their dogs for them. my girl needs more friends.

another stupid fucking thread, we are all big babies.

uh oh, someone has a baby

At this point in my life I'm thankful to have a decent set of friends who don't have kids and don't appear to be planning on it.

For my friends who have kids, at least I get to sometimes feel magnanimous and mature by helping out (and then going home to a peaceful house).

love friends with babies, love the friends, love the babies.

im the guy who goes to their place and makes brunch and plays with the kids while they can sleep or shower or just sit staring at the wall

ppl think this means i want babies like im fuckin blind or something these babies have ruined my friends lives wtf

At this point in my life I'm thankful to have a decent set of friends who don't have kids and don't appear to be planning on it.

For my friends who have kids, at least I get to sometimes feel magnanimous and mature by helping out (and then going home to a peaceful house).

― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, October 8, 2019 4:57 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this a million times. it's just that so many of my friends here are straight, whereas in the last place i lived for more than a year or so, most of my friends were queer.

i never realized how fucked up i'd feel about it, or how weirdly resentful, until now. l

My friends don’t have babies. They have grandchildren.

xp surprised you have any friends at all tbh

friends with retirement benefits

aw mookie

This thread is weird because my best straight friends with kids insist on having me over all the time for drinks and dinner, with or without kids.

Meanwhile its my older queer friends settling down without kids who become hermetic.

As my intimates know, I'm not a person programmed for children or tolerating children, yet I've inspired my best friend to ask me to be the godfather of his child and I have two nieces whom I see often and love. I have non-Hispanic friends whom I see around the country several times a year. Not once has any of them become smug, hermetic, or acted as if I had to love their children. Quite the opposite: they apologize, accommodate, and know that they're the ones with a guest.

So, tabes...I'm sorry? Maybe these people weren't as close as you thought?

Adulthood is friendship's greatest test.

In my experience friends meeting the love of their lives and getting married seems to be the biggest cut off point. But what do I know? I'm a dad.

I don't care about your baby, and I wish you hadn't been so selfish as to effectively end our friendship for your egotistical experiment.

If this was a poll, this is how I'd vote

The problem isn't the baby, it's table's relationship with his friend.

and if you're a musician over, say, 28, babies will kill off the remaining bands that marriages somehow failed to kill

if you dont have kids i dont want to hang out with you. kid gang all day

you all are so young

we really aren't

Alfred, i think it's my friends' relationships with their friends. if yr so willing to just chuck people you've known for years and years to the side because you've had a kid, then that's on you, not me or "the relationship."

i do know some parents who come out of the first few years a lot wearier but certainly pretty social and interested/interesting, but these are the exception to the rule.

lol

Alfred, i think it's my friends' relationships with their friends. if yr so willing to just chuck people you've known for years and years to the side because you've had a kid, then that's on you, not me or "the relationship."

You misunderstood me or I was unclear. If your friend sours on you, it's his/her problem, not the kid or on you.

Also, remember: any parents with a child need a while, often months, to sort themselves out. It's difficult accommodating a strange life with no feelings who cries all the time.

I have trouble maintaining friendships with non kid having g friends largely because work + family just consumes so much of my time and whatever socializing I do kind of just needs to be at birthday parties or across the street at the playground or maybe the occasional brunch. Most childless friends (to no fault of their own) are not really down for the kinds of activities I can handle these days and also (again to no fault of their own) are just on a different sort of wavelength in terms of scheduling and planning needed, times that work for hanging out, etc. I mean it’s really hard to even do the kind of “just hanging out” for long stretches unless the other person has kids who will keep my own kids busy. So I default to other people with kids and I can’t handle late Monday night karaoke or weekend weed sessions.

There’s a good dear prudence column about this, being gay and mourning the loss of friends because they decide to have kids, fwiw

unless the other person has kids who will keep my own kids busy

My parents' social lives unfolded this way. The assumption was that the kids will run off and play in the basement (or wherever) while the adults drank and talked and played bridge (or whatever).

That model has mostly not worked for us, partly because I have an intellectually disabled kiddo who is simply not on the same wavelength as kids his age. Firstly, he needs way more supervision; and secondly I don't always know how other kids will react to him.

Maybe it'll be different some day, but for now "why don't you kids go off and play" has never quite worked for us.

I am not by any stretch of the imagination a 'babies' person. The last friend who asked me to hold their baby (without any kind of instruction or management, mind you), IS2G that baby reacted so instinctively negatively towards me that it wiggled out of my arms to the floor, and I was accused of dropping the baby. Babies are seriously not something that should be left around me. I am not for them; they are not for me.

I know a few straight friends with babies. I know more lesbians / queer AFABs / trans men / Enbies with babies. It's a thing.

However, watching friend groups and social 'scenes' over the years, I have noticed that once babies start arriving, the gestational partners (meaning the AFABs) start quietly disappearing from that scene, but the cis men stay. So whether by accident or intention, removing babies from any social event (or making social events baby-free by accidental design, such as holding them late at night, in a club with an age limit) is an inherently misogynist position. Until we live in a fairer society, banning babies means banning AFABs.

It's quite elucidating, how many *queer* AMABs will reveal their misogyny (or lack thereof) completely openly, in public this way.

The last friend who asked me to hold their baby (without any kind of instruction or management, mind you), IS2G that baby reacted so instinctively negatively towards me that it wiggled out of my arms to the floor, and I was accused of dropping the baby.

i lolled

when I was in my 20s I hung out w/ kids way more often, I miss it! actual babies are often boring but their parents, when they don't shut down completely, can become groupchat mvps ime. the monstrosities of the nuclear family obv won't be tackled through more selfish whining, but it feels good and this is ilx. most ppl are at their most boring between 30-50 & having a kid is less heinous than having a career imo

i became a dad in june last year and i'm so relieved to never have to see my friends anymore tbh, it's easily the best thing about parenthood, a+ would recommend

i v much enjoy children and their work but i can absolutely understand people who hate them

oh holding babies makes me super nervous and I haaaate it when people just shove their baby at me without asking (not that there is a polite non-awkward way to say no) or telling me how to hold it or arranging it in my arms, like "oh you're a woman*, you'll know how to hold this fragile precious wriggly thing and not have all the articles you've ever read about how fragile baby skulls are or how you need to have the neck at the exact right angle flash through your mind except devoid of the bit which says what that exact right angle is"

(* ok, ok, possibly just "oh you're an apparently more-or-less-functional adult human being, surely everyone knows how to do this")

most ppl are at their most boring between 30-50 & having a kid is less heinous than having a career imo

can concede that I am extremely boring and didn't even manage to have kids or a career :(

My two closest friends both became fathers relatively late in life (when they were in their 40s), whereas I've happily stayed childless. It was one of the motivating factors behind my move from London to Glasgow - I could see that they would have a lot less time (and energy!) to hang out, and I didn't want to find myself resenting that, or their kids. What I really like now is when I visit them in London and my pals tell me how good I am with their kids - being an uncle is the best of all worlds imho!

I am internally mildly disappointed to very disappointed when I have friends that decide to have a baby after many, many years of being vocal about not having kids. People change their minds, I get that. I once thought about having a kid after seeing that awesome baby on Series of Unfortunate Events. Just in the last five years, most of the women seemed to have changed their mind because they were pressured by family or money. I had a roommate who was always complaining that her dad helped her brothers and sisters buy apartments only because they had kids and two years ago decided to get in on that deal. I very much appreciate my friends that do not have kids.

Adulthood is friendship's greatest test.

pretty much - you lament that having kids takes you out of the scene for a while but you slowly come to realize that scene doesn't really exist anymore. my group of friends has sort of splintered off and mutated and a lot of my favorite people have become reclusive. of course having kids changes you too, I don't really identify much with non-parents anymore. I mean I'll gladly hang out with y'all but my life is so different.

Xp

That doesn't seem like a good reason to have kids but maybe you don't need one. I was conceived by accident by a couple of irresponsible teenagers and I turned out... oh wait

I do get the feelings of disappointment when friends have kids but I know it's just from a selfish place and my friends' kids are pretty cool tbh. It's not like I am that sociable these days to miss the dazzling social life we could be having instead

I probably should clarify that the disappointment partially comes from me thinking that it's still currently and generally a bad deal for women to get married or have kids. So I agree with branwell's sentiment. I have another friend that is now considering a child too. It's all pressure from the family right now because she's going to be 40 soon.

I have had two babies now. I would never consider handing them over to anyone who wasn't able to hold them or didn't want to. I don't understand why so many people do this.

yes OTM I find it difficult enough to cling on to our one myself, shoving them into the hands of someone who may or may not be willing seems foolhardy

v much appreciated not being asked to hold the baby when i visited the other week

imagine judging people for having kids

jesus do some of ye hear yerselves sometimes at all i wonder

people judge one for having kids or not having kids. welcome.

I like holding babies

i couldn't eat a whole one

imagine judging people for holding kids

MichaelJacksonBerlinBalcony.jpg

I was once watching my friends' toddler while they went paddleboarding and another couple with a toddler came over to play (I was like, oh no this is worse than forced interaction at the dog park) and they kept asking me all these questions about the child that I had no clue how to answer and I felt like such a kidnapper.

you should have just made up a bunch of bullshit answers - 'this is bort, he's 16 but looks a lot younger. he likes eating brass buttons and his favourite friends cast member is gunther'

You ever like voluntarily pick up a baby you know, or in some way entertain it and hold its attention, and its parent immediately teleports to an inaccessible pocket dimension for exactly two hours

how the hell did you find out about the pocket dimension

whenever I used to visit my parents, my brothers would automatically teleport over and mysteriously leave all the kids (5) for the entire day. My spouse would put in a good two hours of pillow fights and twister and then disappear into a well.

xxp youtubes of paul merson volleys while they bawl confusedly

re: original post: that may be your true feeling but IMO it's a pretty selfish and dick feeling.

I used to be very uncomfortable holding babies and definitely don't think it's a good idea to just pass one off to anyone, but enough friends have had kids now where I'm starting to get the hang of it. Why, just the other night I said "do you want me to take him?" for the first time.

Holding babies is terrifying.

hey lemme yeet that baby real quick

my dumping facebook has done far more to cut me off from old friends than their decisions or not to have kids has done. i'm also extremely introverted though and so are many of my friends, i have friends i never see but mostly because i hate leaving the house and they hate leaving the house. every couple months we say "we should totally get together" and then don't.

my experience with my friends who have had kids is that for the first couple years or so the life is all about that child and after that, you know, it's important but one gradually does regain a life outside of the child. i don't think there's anything wrong with becoming monomaniacal on a single topic for several years on end, but then i'm biased.

yes, kids will destroy your friends' social lives. But so will a moisture meter for their houseplants. Got to keep those spreadsheets up to date.

imagine judging a baby

https://media.secondstreetapp.com/1924812

lmao at referring to having kids as an "egotistical experiment", being a parent tramples on any sense of ego you might've had and it's not an "experiment" if it (hopefully) lasts a lifetime

The main divide among my friends with young kids seems to be whether hanging out with them completely revolves around looking at & talking about said kids, vs having at least a desire/intention to talk about other things. Sure, the kids take a lot of attention, no big deal. But most of our close friends at least want to keep up our relationship on some level.

(there are definitely a few couples that have fallen into 100% babyland, but they're the exception, and we didn't have the closest relationships beforehand anyway)

I was impressed at my cousin's baby's skill at playing fetch when I was younger.
They just bring their object of desire right back to you, you don't have to train them to drop/give like a dog.

Sucked at tug of war, though. No jaw strength at all.

got to be honest all my kids were accidents i'm not sure there was good experimental method

imagine judging a baby

that particular baby's a gentleman's 6/10 at best tbh

imagine judging a baby for having parents

i have friends i never see but mostly because i hate leaving the house and they hate leaving the house. every couple months we say "we should totally get together" and then don't.

I don't know if this is replicable for everyone, but we have hosted a small potluck for friends at our house every week for the last 10 years, same weeknight & time. I cannot recommend it highly enough as people get older, so that they can plan around it and come when they're able. Otherwise it would be impossible to keep scheduling dinners/brunches on weekends or whatever, and we wouldn't see anyone for weeks or months, I'm sure.

Granted, kids rarely make appearances, although one friend is going to start coming again with the baby I think. But it's a great way to keep up with your friends without kids.

children thrive on the incoherent tapestry of a potluck meal plate

bg i judged yr baby a 9/10 fwiw, the dropped point is for not having demonstrated sufficient interest in my puns

thx 4 feedback, i'll pass that along and ask her to seriously consider bucking up her ideas

We'd consider having a kid if we had a modicum of job stability and the slightest inkling as to where we'll be in five years.

ok ILX "rate my offspring" thread needs to happen

what could possibly go wrong

low ratings

time was a good ilx review could launch a baby's career. of course the next could also end it.

One friend (the most baby-centric of them all) has already launched her baby's modeling career. So really they pay for themselves.

whenever people are like "they're growing up too fast!" i always think to myself "not fast enough tbh"

the friends come back into rotation when their kids grow up a little, you just have to tough it out for like A DECADE
which is hard!!

and if you're a musician over, say, 28, babies will kill off the remaining bands that marriages somehow failed to kill

My band is still together, the three oldest members have kids (now ranging from kindergarten to high school). In my observation they miss more gigs, often drink more because they're out of the house having solo party-time, and appear to enjoy 4 hour drives a lot more than they used to. Obviously they have very understanding partners.

Personally I'm in way more bands now than I was in pre-kids.

But yeah it takes a lot of consideration of what my partner's up to. And I'm constantly monitoring how many Husband Points I have saved up before I agree to a practice or gig or side project. For example, I handle all morning stuff (breakfast, lunch-packing, getting people on buses). We also make sure to build in reciprocal time / space for her extrahouseular activities.

So far it's working out, and I know how to ramp down if it looks like it may become a problem.

i recall going on some kind of dumb moral crusade on a similar thread years ago but nowadays *shrugs* table i get what you are saying

And I'm constantly monitoring how many Husband Points I have saved up before I agree to a practice or gig or side project

tbf this is how I operate without kids

it's true that friends vanish when they have babies.

i occasionally say "Seeya in 18 years!" and they think it's a joke.

this thread is making an excellent case for procreation

...along w/ your kids hating you for the hellscape they will live through.

if you plan to abandon support for your kids at 18 years, they probably aren't changing your life much before then

but kanye has a song, i get it

tbf this is how I operate without kids

Right, plenty of kidless folx vanish into gaming, LARPing, competitive cycling, booze, etc.

They either make the deals they have to vis-a-vis their partners or they don't.

husband points

friend baby

my puns

speaking from experience I hope no one who has friends with kids and ascribes to them the worst and most selfish motives for having them ever has word get back to those friends about what you said.

the friends come back into rotation when their kids grow up a little, you just have to tough it out for like A DECADE
which is hard!!

My BFF is 1700 miles away, but when I last visited him and his 3 young boys they were old enough to be left unsupervised for periods (youngest is 5). Felt so strange cause I'd gotten use to always having them be within eyesight. But now they go off and do their thing (which of course involves video games, or coding, or watching YouTubes about video games or coding) and I can go check in on each of them if I want, then go back to drinking beer and grilling and talking about muscle cars and the big game with the adults. The oldest said my visit was maybe the best day of his life, which is actually a pretty sad if true lol.
So idk if it's a full decade per kid, but yeah at least 5 yrs before they get some of their freedom back.

A good friend recently got married, to a woman who had a kid when she was very young. Said kid (who recently entered middle school) is a delight, very smart & creative, and my friend gets to do the things he loves to do most with him - write poetry, play video games, introduce him to art & music. And his wife has just gotten settled in her career.

They're planning on having a kid together now, and it just seems crazy to me to restart the clock at this point. I mean, I get it based on who they are, but just practically it seems like they've just got it all together, why bring a baby into the situation?

mine are 4 & 2 and I already feel like I've gotten most of my freedom back. it's not really that miserable.

Speaking as a fortysomething with (a) a four-week-old baby and (b) a major vertigo/balance problem, I was surprised to learn that holding babies is not actually that hard!

You just need five minutes' perseverance to figure out how to balance the kid's head in your elbow crook, and after that it's EASY. Also, letting the baby's neck drop and lollop around will not, in fact, snap its neck and kill it, but just make it a bit annoyed.

So far keeping in touch with my not-baby-having friends also... doesn't seem that hard either? But we're only at Month 1.

Otherwise, enforced social hermitting = A++ would purchase again

That sounds exactly like my friend, Jordan. His gf's daughter from prior relationship is in 7th grade but they just had a baby together in June. I worry about his gf cause she sounded like she has some PPD. Quit her job when got pregnant, had vasa previa which made for a pretty rough pregnancy and neonatal period, seems pretty restless and adrift now. Hope she didn't feel like she HAD to have a kid with my friend to seal the deal with him (not that he would pressure her too at all).

yeah you can be a total social hermit and yet in your eyes and the eyes of society seem productive ("I'm building a model citizen of the future, wtf did YOU ACTUALLY DO at that vegan artshow pumpkin ale release DJ set afterparty???"), that seems like a big benefit to having kids for an introvert.

main changes to your social life are basically 1) you have to plan things in advance and 2) you can't stay up as late since you know you're gonna have to be up at 7 AM anyway. having an understanding partner who also likes to go out every week or two helps. the thing that sucks is we don't get to spend too much time together not as parents - her parents come stay with us for a while and that's nice, but otherwise most of our time as a couple revolves around the kids and I think that is the big change in dynamics. going from "girlfriend" to "wife" isn't really a huge deal but "wife" to "mother of your children" is a huge thing

I have a friend with young kids already whose spouse really wants a third but she is done plus she detested being pregnant. He won't even consider adoption because he wants the kids to resemble them which kind of plays into the ego thing in the OP. They fortunately have enough money for childcare and she's always been extremely interesting so it's stayed nice hanging out with her.

'wanting a third kid: c/d' would rent ilx asunder

*rend

Friends with teenagers are cool - they occasionally miss something because of a karate tournament or w/e but the kid is old enough to be interesting, you get to drop some advice as an unrelated party every now and then, eventually they turn 21 and you get to buy them shots.

Renting a third kid C/D

(Xp dammit)

Rending a third kid: C or D?

My brother had a third kid that narrowly got in under the wire of his vasectomy appt. I have always been unsettled by this nephew and this year I realized it's because he looks like Ben Shapiro.

thoughts and prayers

phenotypes don't care about your feelings

It's quite possible that I'm your third kid dad
But it's a fact that I've pooped my pants

#whitestripes #poopedpants #justdadthings

this thread is pleasant actually.

i don't like kids but i know it's a 'me' issue and i try not to scowl at them.

not wanting kids doesn't mean you have to hate 'em! to me they're just... fine. and often funny
also world gonna drown soon etc.

the gestational partners (meaning the AFABs) start quietly disappearing from that scene, but the cis men stay.

This is totally true. ...Well some of the cis men also disappear to do dad things or because they had to take on more "adult tasks" like getting full time jobs with benefits which require getting up early with long commutes. ... But I am honestly trying to think of a person in my social circle who has given birth and is raising a child that is still out and about while her/their partner is at home being a parent on a regular basis .... actually, my former boss is the only one. But grandma & grandpa live downstairs so ...

I remember having this "friends with babies" issue on ilx about 10 years ago! ... between the babies and people moving away for financial reasons ... it feels less like the babies are as big a deal in my friendships as I had feared at the time. I just got used to people leaving and disappearing and fading away.

I held a baby once! I did better than I thought, it wasn't as unpleasant and awkward as I'd feared ... I still don't want one.

There is a certain sonic frequency above which I don't like hearing the human voice ... unless it's like, someone singing opera. Once a child's voice descends below that frequency/pitch, I am okay spending time in their presence.

mine are 4 & 2 and I already feel like I've gotten most of my freedom back. it's not really that miserable.

Yeah, the child-free posters appear to formed a mistaken view of parenthood as a decade or two of anhedonic purgatory. For my part, I must say it's by far the most rewarding and fun experience I've ever had. Yes, you certainly see less of the people with whom you socialized before you procreated - but, on the other hand, a whole new world of companionship and emotion is opened up to you. (To quote J.F. Sebastian, "These are my friends. I made 'em!")

sure lookit

a few months back I had this very educational experience. I had thought that one of the worst things I could do for work is wait in the City Building Department to get a form signed for an hour. No, the worst thing was waiting in the City Building Department to get a form signed for an hour while a 2 year old makes high pitched screeching noises and wants you to wave hello to it because it is used to being rewarded for being cute and doing such things.

i like hangin' out with a baby or two, toddlers even, on occasion.

I don't like kids but it's me that's selfish: I have no idea what to say to them or how to amuse them, and I fear brutal childlike honesty abt people they find creepy/funny-looking/weird i.e. me - plus, yeah, I get bothered by noise, and noise is kind of what kids do

the other half is so much better with kids, it's amazing, I couldn't even tell you what he does differently. no idea if that's a thing I could learn or if it's just beyond me

the kids next door like him and were polite to me despite clearly finding me weird, until one day the girl had a friend round who stared at me disdainfully throughout the 3 seconds we met for and said something about me not looking like a woman, and since then the girl has not said a single word more to me and now just glares suspiciously at me *shrug*

I worry abt thousands of possible things I'd be bad at or never get used to if we had some kids, and the suitability of my genetic material for propagating obv, but also "am I so undisguisably repulsive to all kids that my own kids would be bullied relentlessly for having the hilarious freak mum"

You can tell ILX has aged and matured because there's no parallel "friends with boobies" thread.

moobs

I'm waiting for a "C/D: Friends with babies that grew up to be teenagers who are only interested in fast-tracking themselves to be an influencer or a entrepreneur because anything else is 'too much work'"

for posters calling me a dick: meh.

for posters hoping my friends never find out: i won't ever let them. that's why i post on here instead of facebook.

and tbh, i am really good with babies and kids in general— i've been a camp counselor, for fuck's sake. leading around thirty 6-10 year old boys for a summer is exhausting but i've done it and kind of enjoyed it.

i just really dislike the baby phase, which is why the thread specifies babies. babies are completely uninteresting to me, so like some other posters, i'm anticipating 4-5 years without some significant portions of my friend crew. it sucks, and i am bitter about it, but eh.

Yeah, the child-free posters appear to formed a mistaken view of parenthood as a decade or two of anhedonic purgatory. For my part, I must say it's by far the most rewarding and fun experience I've ever had. Yes, you certainly see less of the people with whom you socialized before you procreated - but, on the other hand, a whole new world of companionship and emotion is opened up to you. (To quote J.F. Sebastian, "These are my friends. I made 'em!")

― Vast Halo

Not having kids boils down to a couple things for me:

* Growing up was hell for me. Now that I'm 43 I'm getting closer to the point where I feel I wouldn't be as shitty a parent as my parents were, but that's a very recent thing and I've made my peace with it. My wife also had a hard childhood and does not want children either.

* I have a hard time believing any children of mine would have a better or easier life than I have had.

* Certainly until a couple years ago I didn't have any belief that I would ever be able to afford to raise a child.

* I'm told that parenthood is an incredibly rewarding experience and, also, that there is no pain in life like seeing your child suffer, and no fear like the fear of seeing your child hurt. I know which of those things counts more to me.

* Certain aspects of my long-term gender dysphoria have meant that I haven't really have the practical ability to reproduce anyway. My wife also has genetic factors that mean that she would be an extremely high-risk pregnancy. Oh yeah people will always tell you to adopt. Most of the people who will tell you that haven't.

I think it's fantastic that people have kids and I've gone through enough challenging life situations that I'm not going to look down on anybody for being able to go through a couple years of sleepless nights. Decades of anhedonic purgatory? Hell, I can relate to that and I don't even have kids to show for it.

Most of my friends don't have kids. Two of my best friends had two kids two years apart. I've got to watch both grow up from birth.

When the oldest one, now 4, said my name for the first time I teared up a little. I adore them.

Tho my friends joke that my hangouts are just an excuse to see the kids.

(these are two friends who are married to each other obv)

So classic

My two babies are now both in university, years 1 and 2.

Curiously, I don't have lots of friends with children. My closest friends outside the family are kidless. I'm not sure what to make of that. Maybe I'm attracted to "free radicals" so to speak.

Parenthood felt like a rigorous test right through early childhood, but then things started easing up. Once my kids were in high school their moods leveled off somewhat and the house opened up. It became a very popular hangout (and even campsite from time to time) for a lot of their friends. There was a sense of constant movement, in and out; and new faces at dinnertime. Our social gatherings (usually cookouts) increasingly became all-ages affairs.

I've been reading and posting on ilx for almost as long as I've been a father, I reckon.

I'm not sure what's next.

Adopting An ILXor, probably.

Gradual slide into senescence.

Lol

https://66.media.tumblr.com/8fc4b103918c90fa3d9bce007e529d1d/tumblr_pnyp9hdl761ro8ysbo1_500.gif

Wait...

https://media.tenor.com/images/d85d9f198d6b18d52267ef60314e7220/tenor.gif

sometimes I think I want to have kids and sometimes I think I couldn't imagine anything worse, and either way it doesn't matter - as a gay man I would have to adopt and I can't imagine that my lack of financial security or mental stability would make me a prime candidate. I see a lot of really bad parenting* in the wild and it really depresses me.

I think when you live on the LGBTQ+ spectrum you spend a lot more time trying to figure out who you are/escaping what people think you should be. We're brought up through societal pressures to believe you should want a good job and a nice house so you can raise a family. But if you're not going to have that family - if natural conception just isn't going to happen in your life - then do you really need that house/savings/stability? And if you don't need it, then why not just keep using your time and money to enjoy being responsibility-free? It's something I struggle with. I see my friends have babies and I feel pangs of envy and guilt about how I'm nowhere near ready for it and I'm barely qualifying as an adult. Then I remember that I choose to live the way I do - I like having disposable income for gigs and wine and no committments on a weekday night.

*we don't need to go into a definition of what that means, let's just assume we all know what that can look like instead of debates where people bring up exceptional exoneratory circumstances

* I'm told that parenthood is an incredibly rewarding experience and, also, that there is no pain in life like seeing your child suffer, and no fear like the fear of seeing your child hurt. I know which of those things counts more to me.

pretty much. one thing about parenthood is that in a sense it adds an extra layer of anxiety to your life that won't go away until the day you die. even something simple like going to a playground is full of emotion - it's so nice to watch them play and explore but at the same time you're envisioning all the different ways they could get hurt. luckily once they hit 4 or so they're a lot less wobbly & generally know what they can and can't do. plus kids' bodies are pretty resilient. my two are constantly doing Stone Cold Stunners to each other and somehow no ones gotten hurt...yet

I bet you're doing a Jim Ross impression at the playground

well the little one did suplex the big one off the bed yesterday, one of those moments where your heart skips a beat while you wait for one of 'em to start crying, and then when they don't you're just pissed you didn't film it

BAHGAWD HE IS BROKEN IN HALF

scuse me. I do not have kids and I thought this thread was a joke at first. I've joked with my busy kid having friends "you didn't consider me at all in this decision did you?" cuz uh... yeah, why would they?

I'm so lonely

luckily once they hit 4 or so they're a lot less wobbly & generally know what they can and can't do.

Wait'll they hit 14. It has opened up a whole new world of things my kid is wobbly about and doesn't know that he can and can't do.

one thing about parenthood is that in a sense it adds an extra layer of anxiety to your life that won't go away until the day you die

Every time I've felt anxious about something to do with my son I always think "I'll get used to this." And I do get used to it. And then nearly immediately find a new thing to get anxious about. I'm not sure when I will die so I can get some relief but I suspect I have a long time to go

My mom always told me having a child (me) felt like having a cake in the oven 24/7. Always baking, must remain vigilant.
She was not a baker and I don’t remember her ever making a cake EVER so I always figured this was not a favorable comparison.

tbf, children are rather like cakes. In that they can only be in a 350-degree oven for a little while without becoming unpleasantly burnt.

kids ime are far more resilient than baked goods

you can give a cake internet access without worrying about it being radicalised into a little fucker

i don't know man

https://images.forwardcdn.com/image/300x225/center/images/cropped/swastika-cake-1564160154.png

fuck

a cake can't put another cake in the oven and burn it to a crisp

parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done. i cannot really overstate how much work it is. i don't know if my experience is different from most -- both my kids have disabilities & various differences that are can be challenging sometimes because of the intensity of certain associated experiences (e.g. when my autistic son has a meltdown, which happens almost daily)) and other times because their needs are not as easily accommodated and require more time & effort (e.g. i drive an hour every morning across the city so that my son can go to a school that works for autistic kids, we see a bunch of medical and developmental specialists, we have to coordinate various services and therapies) -- but from 5am until 8pm the demands are immediate and unrelenting. there is no downtime. they require constant supervision. the emotional and physical drain on everybody is immense. the volume level is sometimes the hardest to handle above all other challenges, and it can be intense whether or not they are unhappy -- sometimes the most difficult moments to reach them are when they are ecstatic with excitement and energy, running around the house screaming and jumping. they have their own sensitivity to noise, so we own multiple pairs of noise-cancelling headphones, but i find myself wearing the headphones often.

it is immensely rewarding, too. i feel happiest when i am present emotionally with them and they see me & i see them. sustaining those moments requires a daily regimen of care and self-care, and honestly any lapse in that regimen and i can easily fall into a place of resentment and regret for having kids. the demands, responsibilities, and obligations sometimes feel like too much to handle, and i often envy those who are free from them.

i think because of that stress i value my friendships w/ other parents, but also with my childless friends. i don't want my existence and relationships to be built entirely on the premise of being a parent, so it has never bothered me when my childless friends take little interest in my kids. it is validating when they do, of course, after all i spend so much time raising these kids that it'd be weird if they didn't occassionally ask about it, but i really enjoy going out with them and feeling free from my kids and from being a parent for a few hours. i've found that to be really necessary.

Respect and strength to you, marcos.

I love ilxor threads about children

my local friends I spend time with regularly have no kids and from what I know most of them probably never will.

the couple I know locally who had a kid I am not close to so I can't really attribute the fact that I don't see them to their child

anyway children should be gestated by paid workers and raised communally

take it to the trolling thread, buddy

who's trolling

Respect and strength to you, marcos.

― Saint Buffy (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, October 10, 2019 1:35 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

you too, i know we are in a similar boat!

I'll post this opinion I genuinely hold in as many threads as it's relevant

relevance is totally subjective -- you should post it in more threads

surrogacy seems like a shitty job

parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done. i cannot really overstate how much work it is. i don't know if my experience is different from most -- both my kids have disabilities

ime parenting a child with disabilities is exactly the same as parenting any other child, except more so. the challenges are all similar in kind to other parenting, but the needs are greatly enlarged and the inner resources you must bring to bear are enlarged proportionately. a lot of the time you're running on sheer will and the inability to imagine any better way forward. Many days I think of Beckett's 'I cannot continue. I shall continue'.

but this thread is supposed to be about how the table is the table has perverse friends who ruined his life by having children. we do him a disservice by derailing it.

it's "I can't go on, I'll go on".

no misquoting big boy beckett on my watch

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/957/652/398.jpeg

I've said this before but. Every human achievement that you value (every album and song and symphony, every book and painting, every movie, every protest movement and instance of social justice activism) came from someone who was once a baby and therefore must have had parents.

So if you love music (the ostensible originating reason for this site), you kinda at least have to accept the premise of babies? I think?

I don't mean that you need to enjoy specific babies or the act of holding them and changing them and stuff, but surely you can kinda see the connection between parents, babies, and the stuff you value?

(Of course, I put this forward knowing that the converse is true: villains and terrible music and bad movies ALSO come from people who were once babies, but it becomes very difficult to quantify the cost/benefit ratio. If you want to live at all in a comprehensible fashion, though, you at least have to try.)

ty. my apologies to Big Sam

Thank you for your service, jim.

"e.g. when my autistic son has a meltdown, which happens almost daily"

I spent a long time in that place and can be a very lonely and tough place to be, thank god he is much calmer now at the age of 17 because dealing with that every day can be completely exhausting.

So if you love music (the ostensible originating reason for this site), you kinda at least have to accept the premise of babies? I think?

You also have to accept the premise of foul smelling feces ... you can accept these premises but also want to avoid them as much as possible.

Surprised no one has mentioned that just accepting one's own existence requires accepting the existence of babies.

yes, but enough ppl on ilx hate themselves so ...

i am so, so delighted by a big sam reference itt

There is a certain sonic frequency above which I don't like hearing the human voice ... unless it's like, someone singing opera. Once a child's voice descends below that frequency/pitch, I am okay spending time in their presence.

otmfm, that shriek sends me running. even the gurgles of a happy baby send me running because i know that shriek is literally 2 minutes away.

yes, but enough ppl on ilx hate themselves so …

yeah p sure this was where I found out that anyone who had kids after the year 1980 is probably a sociopath

2020 Democratic presidential primary

i live in the breediest breedery in the united states, utah, and i'm surrounded by people who dedicate their entire lives to the importance of breeding and have formed a religious cult for furthering that mindset. even not in utah it's still pretty much the majoritarian default. so i for one am very grateful for (a tiny handful) of voices here that (occasionally) push back and make the ethical case for not-breeding and argue that it's good, actually, because the overwhelming current of the mainstream can make it difficult to keep upright in the eddy of not-breeding without some additional strength and support.

People understandably confuse the advocacy of not breeding with hating your nieces, nephews, godchildren.

oh god, Mormons and breeding ....I had a friend in high school (he was the oldest kid in his Mormon family) and doing the math, his mom must have been constantly pregnant/breeding for 18 straight years.

yeah. maybe. but to my way of thinking, "I don't care about your baby, and I wish you hadn't been so selfish as to effectively end our friendship for your egotistical experiment" or "anyway children should be gestated by paid workers and raised communally" are not great examples of making "the ethical case for not-breeding". They seem, I don't know, sort of shallow when considered as ethical arguments.

well yeah, they're first steps. i was referring to sic saying that having babies after 1980 is sociopathic. also this for more context and depth: https://www.comatonse.com/writings/2017_deproduction.html

Remember to take a moment to welcome ex-congressman (R) Sean Duffy's 9th child into the world.

that's not my ethical case against breeding, that's my political program. my ethical case against breeding is that it is cruel to create an alive person

I've forgiven my parents for having me, but barely

I was born before 1980, so my parents are cool

i would be down for gestation to occur completely without the requirement of a woman's body. But if they want to get paid for it, I am fine with that too.

I missed what happened in 1980 did they outlaws antibiotics or summat?

desire and raising children have been the organizational principles of civilization since time immemorial, there is no shortage of deep ideological backing for the concept of raising children. choosing not to go that way needs more of a coherent solidarity imo. perhaps less based on "having kids is awful" and more based on "the concept of family needs to expand beyond blood roles and into experiential relationships," perhaps fostered by things like silby's political program.

XP Ordinary People came out, iirc.

it takes a paid ass village

I've forgiven my parents for having me, but barely

guys i'm sure sic has a very particular reason for choosing that year i mean he hasn't let me down yet

lol thanks bb

maybe it will be like the military where entering into this program will be a way for more people in the US to obtain affordable healthcare.

on "the concept of family needs to expand beyond blood roles and into experiential relationships," perhaps fostered by things like silby's political program.

this would benefit parents too

everyone

Will silby accept a moderate position, it’s fine to make babies it’s just unacceptable to let them live to be adults

I would accept babies if they grew up to be Nude Jake Gyllenhaal

You just have to purchase a lottery ticket like the rest of us.

No see once you’ve had a baby it’s a person and we have to take care of them

heh this reminds me of conversations with former middle school teachers, who, in their darker moments, thought that between the ages of 11 and 13, all children should just be put on a jungle island and left to their own devices Lord of the Flies style ... because those are the worst ages to try and teach.

I would accept babies if they grew up to be Nude Jake Gyllenhaal

i'm all for publically supported group childrearing as long as the budget includes earplugs and xanax

my sil offered to be a surrogate for our baby because she loves being pregnant??? But I had to tell her that it wouldn't solve the problem of not actually wanting the baby.

hah

i'm all for publically supported group childrearing as long as the budget includes earplugs and xanax

― cheese canopy (map), Thursday, October 10, 2019 12:17 PM (one minute ago)

we kinda have that already though -- it's called "school" -- and earplugs and xanax? Damn, some of our teachers have to buy their own paper!

haha

actually, I have friends who teach kids who would be stoked to get free xanax tho

a chicken in every pot, a xanax in every baby

a chicken in every baby, pot and xanax in every parent

a baby in every chicken, a booming market for soylent green futures

a Nude Jake Gyllenhaal in me

lock thread, we’ve cracked the case

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/29/article-0-0B613BC900000578-752_468x463.jpg

He was born in 1980.

https://media.giphy.com/media/DPTnk0oIJaibe/giphy.gif

I see the passion never died.

does it ever?

I've got little kids - yeah it was hard for me to go out for a matter of months per child - but I think it depends on the friends. A couple of mine (with no kids) just dropped off the face of the earth once we had kids. Loads of texts trying to get them to come out but we were just no longer on their radar.

Getting to the age now where friends who are parents to young kids also have caring responsibilities to their own parents (dementia, health problems etc).

v. self-centered for people to have ailing parents without consulting their friends, who may not be into it

I admit to having "my people!" thoughts when I meet people my age (mid-40s) who do not have kids. There aren't that many of us!

there aren't that many of period. Gen Xers sandwiched between two much, much bigger generations.

many of US