The unhappiness of ILX

ILX is a community I love.

I have learned a lot from posting here. And following the history of the board has been like reading a vast novel with numerous narrative threads, like house of leaves or something.

But lately what has stood out to me is the extremely bleak emotional tenor of the board. The debates we are having, over and over, don't really stimulate anyone. We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things" but viciously tear each other apart on points of disagreement. The conversations go in circles and no one learns anything. (I am as guilty of this as anyone).

Some posters have taken up very hostile posting styles and have said that they see this as a place to vent or express their despair.

Is this it? Is there nothing exciting or interesting to talk about anymore? Even when threads on non-political topics are bumped, it's usually just like two word posts or something. I don't know if we are utilizing this Internet real estate as well as we could.

It is my dear hope that I am 51'd for this thread. Because that means that I am completely out of line and you all love the way we're doing things here.

fp’d

*hugs treesh*

*becomes treeshhugger*

ilx has always functioned as a depression support group and that is a feature, not a bug

agree that things can seem a bit gloomy sometimes. hiving off political content to a separate board might help. anyway there's the 2019 film poll soon, get psyched!

i have long advocated for a separate politics board.

i wasn't always sure but it certainly feels like it's time now yeah

None of this would be an issue if ILXors were unhappier still.

ILX reflects the life and times of ilxors. It is a notably unhappy time. But I do agree that using ILX to vent stress through hostility or despair is not healthy. We have several threads, including a de-indexed thread on 77 for sharing mental health challenges and supporting one another through them, and these have not been seeing traffic commensurate to the needs I see being deflected to (mostly) the political threads. It seems apparent that many among us could be more compassionate toward one another. I'll try to keep that perspective more often.

ILM is still 95% positive, because music is still good.

I will qualify 'always functioned as a depression support group' actually

way back when, there were a few charitable individuals but (and I stress this is not rly my own experience) the overall mood of the board was much more dismissive towards those with mental health issues - to a callous and even hostile extent

but there has always been a supportive community element idk

that is a good thing obviously and i myself suffer from depression.

i just don't think there needs to be so many politics threads. where are the great debates happening that aren't to do with politics? where something feels like it's at stake but it's not über bleak? i would like to see links to those threads, if they're on ILM or wherever.

So you're saying there should be an I Love Politics board...?

i think so, yeah

I vaguely consider suicide every time I open the uk politics thread. Don't think I can deal with it anymore. But yeah, looking forward to the film poll

The great debates are happening on the slack and are mainly about testicles

Slack is the nü-nü-ILX. ILX is I Love Politics in all but name.

maybe it should be called "politics makes me hate everything"

Everything is political doncha know.

Never understood why there are so many sub boards (maybe 15 years ago it made more sense). Could merge most of them back to ILE and no-one would bat an eyelid.

yeah i mean, a new board wouldn't be a fix unless every time you clicked on it there was a warning

You know what's in here. Do you really want to read it?

YES! | NO! Take me back!

I do wish all the film threads were in the film section. Why did people completely give up on that?

yeah, i don't know

maybe i should get into film and talk to you lot about it

You should check out the classical threads.

classical music? i don't know much about it. would be interested in learning though.

We're polling the late 60s right now. Everyone is welcome!

ILX has been way worse, and angrier, than this

yes

You should totally get into film, treesh! You should start with the best movie ever made: Paddington 2

ilx has been way better, and angrier than this

paddington 2 is an extraordinarily good film though

We should seriously do a Paddington 2 film club. All watch at the same time.

You should come here - Between the Wars AKA The Jazz Age AKA Centuries of Sound Volume 2 - and talk about the music of 1923 with me, it's not a bad year. 1924 will have Rhapsody in Blue!

What's Paddington 2 about?

oooh the all time great, rhapsody in blue

anyway

i have no other thoughts on the unhappiness of ilx or the issues treesh raises

it, and i mean rhapsody in blue, is about hugh grant being a big old meanie

it's usually just like two word posts or something

you got 2 up yr VELOCITY mayne

one easy trick to end the nonstop overwrought political direness: ban the leftists

imago almost totally wrong mind you

Oh hai esby

What's Paddington 2 about?

ILX has been way worse, and angrier, than this

― El Tomboto, Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:09 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes

― mark s, Saturday, April 11, 2020

Thirded. The late 2000s were grim.

Treesh, I rap your knuckles a lot in part because I'm impatient of using, well, most media for confessional real-time venting. But I love you and I want your happiness.

Many of the album and film threads are terrific. Or the books thread!

I do wish all the film threads were in the film section. Why did people completely give up on that?

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, April 11, 2020 4:03 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

IIRC, when I Love Film was started, it wasn't intended as a place for all ILX film discussion, much of which was already taking place on ILE. It was more of a niche thing, for True Cineastes who wanted to nerd out in their own space. In retrospect, this was maybe a mistake.

What's Paddington 2 about?

about an hour & 40 iirc

― force ghost bg (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, April 11, 2020 10:19 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ArcticSphericalBass-size_restricted.gif

Never understood why there are so many sub boards (maybe 15 years ago it made more sense). Could merge most of them back to ILE and no-one would bat an eyelid.

I maintain ILAFL should retain its independence as an island of esotericism and ephemeral in-jokes

about an hour & 40 iirc

Good lord! Jolly good. Well that is a long time, isn't it?

I might try to start film threads in the film section so we can normalize that place someday.

At least we know ILX is unhappy in its own way.

it is unhappy in a very similar way to twitter

just complete the ILE-fication of ILX and drop the subboards already. It’ll get me to stop posting, if it’s any motivation

this reminds me I need to rewatch paddington 2 because I inexplicably fell asleep which i usually only do during extended action sequences.

Is it better than Trolls World Tour?

Is this it? Is there nothing exciting or interesting to talk about anymore?

i'd like to respond to these questions. i think that since the dawn of messageboards, discussion on pretty much any community can be divided into two broad categories: present and past. as discussions first unravel, there's a ton of history to wade through and establish opinions on.

https://i.imgur.com/2SIEF6s.jpg

for example, during the early years, it is still possible for someone to start the very first krautrock discussion on the board, and see who else is interested, and everyone is kind of learning and also staking out territory or looking for consensus or forming igneous rocks out of hotter takes. in Civilization, these times are known as "golden ages", and you get a big stat bonus while it lasts.

at the same time, the present is happening, and it also gets discussed. that was true back then, just as it's true now. the interest in the present ebbs and flows with time and events, as aimless mentioned above. present times are off the charts interesting and terrifying and weird and bad right now.

anyway, to cut this long post short, my point was going to be that as the ILX years went by, we covered more and more of that larger "past" part of the iceberg. it's like a large mineral deposit that was a great source of discussion for many years but which has now been mostly chipped and chawed away. that doesn't mean there's no point in talking about it, and i enjoy the lists and all that. but it's the difference between rolling stone in 1967 vs a 2017 Uncut retrospective on The Who. it's just a different kind of discussion when it's well trodden territory.

we didn't discuss Campari often in 2005 iirc

I prefer their early stuff

lord kelvin in 1899 iirc

xp that is a good explanation for what happened karl.

we have fallen into decadence, basically

Two suggestions. (Honestly, though, I don't care that much. I used to post regularly on the US politics thread, not as much anymore. I'm much more comfortable posting anything political on Facebook, including on the walls of three ILXors who seem much closer in temperament to me, which basically means it isn't some life-or-death, fight-for-every-square-inch cage match. Someone very soon will point out that yes, it is.)

1. We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things" but viciously tear each other apart on points of disagreement. Start with this. Keep this in mind at all times. If someone doesn't think Joe Biden is the antichrist, and doesn't think Bernie Sanders or AOC or whoever operates on some higher and rarified spiritual plane, don't make it personal. There is this vast middle ground there, and it's not inherently evil.

2. If somebody posts something that's basically unextraordinary but that isn't worded exactly to your liking, let it go. And don't gather around in a circle, playground-style, and zero in on one person. There's somebody who goes through that on a regular basis--and I've seen others who went through it and left--and honestly, it's pathetic.

I accept my ghost dolphin destiny.

it's the difference between rolling stone in 1967 vs a 2017 Uncut retrospective on The Who. it's just a different kind of discussion when it's well trodden territory.

I know this isn't what you meant, but yes, less time should be devoted to classic rock of any variety.

Post Here When You're Tempted to Troll

i don’t read enough ilx these days to know if it’s particularly a problem here but the default miserabilism of the internet nowadays (twitter is “the hell site”, we’re in “the sunken place” or whatever Harry Potter reference) is getting pretty old ya

its been old, starting to think I dont’t have depression or an anxiety disorder because uhhh everybody apparently does as well

the levels of interest in what other posters think have gone through the floor

pathetic upper middle class spoilt brat doesn't understand why the hoi polloi get so angry and depressed thread. thumbs down

i like pathetic upper middle class spoilt brats

Solipsism is the only way out of this state of affairs imho.

pathetic upper middle class spoilt brat doesn't understand why the hoi polloi get so angry and depressed thread. thumbs down

― calzino, Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:59 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

im not really aware of most ilx posters’ class status, but posters on depression anxiety thread seem to be of all various backgrounds

not sure if it was irony but the presumption in calzino’s that all internet negativity is politically justified rage of the oppressed seems pretty obviously wrong and is another annoying current running thru discourse rn

One of my regular forums is made up of more depressed people than this one and the energy is completely different. I guess it might be that complete pessimists are less angry? Does this forum have many people who genuinely wish they weren't born?

Does this forum have many people who genuinely wish they weren't born?

Check out the form babby thread.

"but the presumption in calzino’s that all internet negativity is politically justified rage"

"all internet negativity" lol you are fucking joke!

Im just a simpleton but it’s funny to me that Ambedkar dissed Gandhi for slumming it when the Buddha was the ultimate slummer!!

ambedkar dissed buddha quite a bit too

yeah like I said, there’s a lot I don’t know

the levels of interest in what other posters think have gone through the floor

The good part of ILXOR has always been ILM or later specialty boards. Main ILX is going to be current events (which is going to be angry and depressed because the world has been a dumpster fire for the entirety of our lives), casual movie/media talk or the insufferable twee shit that used to be more common where three catfishing sock puppets would high five each other about their workday.

Calzino, for those of us who are not as on top of things, could you explain in what way Treeship is a spoilt brat?

the levels of interest in what other posters think have gone through the floor

― ogmor, Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:58 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes! this is a big part of the problem.

We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things"

also worth pointing out that this actually isn't really true - there's a pretty large divergence in political opinion at ILX even if it's all ostensibly 'on the left.' Socialists and social democrats and liberals aren't naturally allies.

im pretty sure calzone is fake hardmanning as a joke

The good part of ILXOR has always been ILM or later specialty boards. Main ILX is going to be current events (which is going to be angry and depressed because the world has been a dumpster fire for the entirety of our lives), casual movie/media talk or the insufferable twee shit that used to be more common where three catfishing sock puppets would high five each other about their workday.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Saturday, April 11, 2020 6:27 PM (one minute ago)

ogmor otm but tbh I'm already putting little to no effort into all other areas of my life atm so the prospect of becoming a better, more substantial ILXor is fairly low on my list of human priorities.

"but the presumption in calzino’s that all internet negativity is politically justified rage"

"all internet negativity" lol you are fucking joke!

― calzino, Saturday, April 11, 2020 6:21 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

dgmw i agree with treeship that there are way too many angry dumb leftists like milo around. i just dont think the split between angry dumb left, smart left, dumb lib, smart lib maps into class neatly, or at all

This thread is like one of those "which quarantine house would you like to be in?" memes, in particular the "not that one, nice people but it's going to kick off immediately" choice.

people always find agreeable ways of stanning for the status quo when it hasn't been so bad to them or reducing voices that shout against it. I'm sticking up for people who are angry and have been fucked over by their respective governments because i know exactly what it feels like when you are one step from really being in the shit and feeling suicidal because of it. I'm not saying there is anything unique about that and there are probably plenty others on here that have been in similar positions. I'm basically saying stfu to the smug as fuck OP.

smug? really?

yep

Nice sticking up itt

i think youve to allow for a 'bleak emotional tenor' across the board for the times that's in it, treesh

whether its something to solve or whether the place serves any purpose even as a vent is probably not a useful question really.

xp
that's precisely what your mom said last night

I know

But hey, keep defending your ground by wishing death upon everyone in the UK pol threads and harass a poster with a diff perspective than you starting a concersation in good faith. That’s what’s gonna save your revolution.

stfu dickhead

good faith lool you are such a rube !

i think we should lower the fp threshold to 5 and have ourselves some time off

xp
could almost mistake you for a treesh style disingenuous rube

Whatever, man. Keep on keeping on.

i've only ever wished death on politicians, never done it on posters so stfu sock.

Is this it? Is there nothing exciting or interesting to talk about anymore?

Part of the charm of early ilx is that people were much less guarded in discussing their enthusiasms, their problems and their personal views. In this era, we're all wisely much more careful about what we disclose - and the board becomes an exchange of more generalised views and loses a lot of the softer nuance and background that made it a more enjoyable place. The overall effect, especially on the politics threads, is that it's as if the volume has been turned up and the sound is harsh and ugly and less interesting.

'Softer nuance' in the early days, really?

I am actually not bothered to post again for a while, but I’m fucked if I’m going to see someone shit on calzino, who has spoken on several occasions about his own circumstances. Christ, I do not know how he gets out of bed in the mornings, I know I couldn’t do it. And dismissing him with that “revolution” jibe is so callous, and speaks volumes of how left wing posters are seen on this board.

As before, political arguments getting vicious is...kind of what they are. In these times when the stakes are higher than ever, is it a surprise people get emotional? Or angry? I mean that seems to be this thread’s beef, that people are negative and...I didn’t really see that there was a second point, sorry.

Since we are all airing our beefs, then let me say mine and go:

- this place has a woman problem.
- it is not surprising to me, having been online as long as I have, but it nonetheless still disappoints me.
- it’s an indictment of ilx that people can troll about rape and carry on posting here.
- thanks to those of you that actually said something.
- people are going to reply to this and be like “oh I didn’t want to get involved/seemed like you could take care of yourself”. Both these points are irrelevant; more people read ilx than post these days, and what gets tolerated sets the tone for what is acceptable.
- posters determine the kind of content they get to see. If there are too many political threads stinking up sna, post more.
- it is INCREDIBLY difficult to start a unique topic that hasn’t been covered before. And it’s pretty off putting when someone links you to some thread that hasn’t been updated in 19 years.

As an aside, we have had our beefs but the ukpol thread is generally full of great people, and I love reading your analysis and shitposts. ❤️

"nuance" as fallacious "clever" sounding political chatter that sounds impressive but basically means let's get behind the establishment is just death to me.

But dismissing Threeship as a spoilt smug brat is not callous?

I couldn't give less of a fuck about him tbh!

Fair enough, I guess.

Slack is the nü-nü-ILX. ILX is I Love Politics in all but name.

― coviderunt omnes (pomenitul), Saturday, 11 April 2020 20:55 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

slack is the nu-chatz, i think, tbh

xp ilx has a real hardon for civility, so you can condescend and patronise someone and call them thick in rather more words than it takes usually however you like, but if you are directly rude about/to someone then knives out. Perhaps he should word his rudeness with greater subtlety, but in the end you’re dismissing a person’s real life circumstances, and he’s being rude about a post on the internet about a forum.

'Softer nuance' in the early days, really?

In roughly 2002-2003 ILE was more like a chat room among a smallish group of amiable twenty-somethings. I think "unguarded" is a very apt descriptor of that era. By 2004 that was no longer true in any way.

Ah, I wouldn't have thought to distinguish between 2004 and what came before it.

hard to even read the rest of this thread after seeing your initial post treeship. A lot of the arguments recently, especially political ones, seem pointless. Wish this message board was more focused on art, music, film. I haven’t been a great contributor but would like to become more involved in those discussions

It is possible to comment on someone's posting style and content without it amounting to "dismissing a person's real life circumstances" (of which i am vaguely aware in this case).

dgmw i agree with treeship that there are way too many angry dumb leftists like milo around.

I'd take offense but conversely I think there are way too many people whose worldviews, such as they are, are centered around flattering themselves as the bestest smartest most reasonable and adult analysts of blah blah blah. Not enough jerkoff motions in the world for the 'you're not posting right' crowd.

Really glad that this is the part of my posts people have chosen to focus on, good work.

at least Flopson lives up to his name as a poster tbf

There was a good discussion about Tintin recently. That made me happy. But it was happening on the controversial opinion thread. That made me unhappy.

I would argue that I’m not dismissing Calzino’s real life circumstances in any other way than he does threeship’s.

I have no reason to doubt what you imply about his real life circumstances as basis for his political beliefs, and I have no issues with said political beliefs, many of which I probably agree with (not that’d he’d give a fuck, I imagine). But that wasn’t my point.

Xpost to gyac

xp don’t think anybody here is flattering themselves

The 'covid-19 thread that is just a list of famous people who have tested positive or even since died from it' feels very seen by this thread.

Didn't realize this thread would become a repository for examples of the tendency being addressed but I suppose that only makes sense.

All self-referential threads are born of an unspeakable misery.

I mean this forum had started and was live with posts *while 9/11 attacks were happening* so its hardly the case that the tenor here hasnt always had some measure of angst/anger/negativity. gyac otm about the woman problem. The general tone/attitude since even the early days has decimated the population of women on here. and its not a new thing - people were angry/bitching/miserable about the noize board in like 2007 for example.

I used to really involve myself a lot, but I dont much anymore outside of gaming threads/aus related stuff/some tv threads. I'm teflon, and I think its the only way Ive manged to deal with stuff here and not crack the shits. That, and never reading any politics thread (or most of ILM tbrh)

...no point really, as usual for me, just stickin me oar in.

But guys, pls have a think about how many good women used to be here, who arent now.

calzino’s life circumstances are no excuse for being a dick to treeship

we’re all in hell why yell at each other for experiencing a different hell

there’s no one else to yell at

because some of us happen to believe that our hell is worse if it's the real one and other people can't see that!

instead of yelling, we should try yodeling. ten thousand swiss goatherds can't be all wrong.

sorry j. possibly its the lateness but i cant parse that post either way tbh

https://imgix.bustle.com/rehost/2016/9/13/3223861b-4887-49d5-b9fd-290c6a5007e8.jpg?w=970&h=546&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format%2Ccompress&cs=srgb&q=70

But guys, pls have a think about how many good women used to be here, who arent now.

Yes, this sucks.

yes

"calzino’s life circumstances are no excuse for being a dick to treeship"

he started this pathetic bullshit thread, so he is there to be shot at here right now tbf

Trayce otm. As ever.

I agree. We could attract and retain more interesting posters, of all genders, if the conversations were less boring, miserable and aggressive.

Calzino you know absolutely nothing about me at all.

Argue with my post and say you think the conversation here is good, if you want. But the ad hominem is not OK

Trying to derive deeper meaning and interpersonal value from ILX is no healthier than doing the same with Twitter or Instagram.

If you don't like the conversations... don't post and don't read in the threads that bother you? Start a sub-board where you can moderate content?

One of my regular forums is made up of more depressed people than this one and the energy is completely different. I guess it might be that complete pessimists are less angry? Does this forum have many people who genuinely wish they weren't born?

― Robert Adam Gilmour

like, what, you wanna talk antinatalism? i've been there, i'm not there now but i might be again at some point.

Part of the charm of early ilx is that people were much less guarded in discussing their enthusiasms, their problems and their personal views.

― Luna Schlosser

for certain definitions of "people" maybe? i'm not sure i'd say i've necessarily become _more_ guarded over the past few years.

if slack is the "real" ilx that's kind of hilarious to me, do we also have weekly skype meetings? yes, i'm just salty because apparently none of y'all can get your shit together to make an ilx discord because, i guess, you're not really sure about these newfangled gizmos? (i've already made it clear that i am not going to do it).

Trying to derive deeper meaning and interpersonal value from ILX is no healthier than doing the same with Twitter or Instagram.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z)

disagree! it's a question of scale imo. you won't find me on twitter and instagram not just because i don't trust the corporatist/techbro nature of the communications medium but because they're too fucking big. ilx is a tiny tiny little corner of the internet. i don't personally object to people asking about "yes but what does ilx _mean_ anyway?" because there just aren't that many of us.

"i'm in hell right now, so I get to be a prick and you just have to deal with it" has been the M.O. of some posters for several months, and then when called on it, they basically call the other person a 'snowflake' and insinuate they're pearl clutching about 'civility politics'.

this has always been a place where you're likely to take lumps once in a while, but these aggro posters are often dismissing other people's viewpoints by tarring these posters with some oversimplified classist brush, even if they don't know the other poster enough to do that.

like....ok, sure, I wouldn't expect 'civility' if I was sealioning in the Swans thread about Gira's rape accusations (as two posters infamously did), but if any actual discussion, all I get is a battering ram of ad homs and very little productive discussion, why would I stick around?

not that it's happened to me, but...."I'm very depressed/upset/stressed out/in the shit right now" is being used to excuse a lot of shitty behavior, and it also presupposes that the person on the receiving end isn't also going through Hell, which is very presumptuous.

If you don't like the conversations... don't post and don't read in the threads that bother you? Start a sub-board where you can moderate content?

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:48 PM bookmarkflaglink

oh come on, Treezy obviously isn't asking to censor these discussions.....

«Trying to derive deeper meaning and interpersonal value from ILX is no healthier than doing the same with Twitter or Instagram.»

Do you really mean that, Milo? It runs contrary to my impression of and experience with ILX, both as a longtime lurker and poster. I would expect many to diasagree strongly.

ILX literally began as a board that was largely comprised of people who knew each other IRL and often met up for beer. and many ILXors are friends in real life. and it's also been a place where people who don't know each other have offered support to those people in times of need.

so i don't get where there's no interpersonal value.

xp

yeah I have met people through ILX and then had fun with them IRL, agree that it's a lot less mediated of a platform, the "tiny corner" aspect helps as well.

People meet from and develop friendships and relationships via social media all the time.

“Trying to derive deeper meaning and interpersonal value from ILX is no healthier than doing the same with Twitter or Instagram.”
don’t agree

"you know absolutely nothing about me at all."

so are you just pretending to be an awful nauseating bumptious cunt? Well played!

bumptious!

It’s in a lot of abrasive posters’ interests to devalue the characteristics that make ILX unique, because that helps the argument that their relentless flaming and trolling is perfectly normal. “After all, ILX is no different than Twitter!”

bumptious thread

How much have you had to drink tonight, calzino?

xxpost it's also ahistorical and revisionist, but you said it better than I could.

tombot otm. to me ilx is different than twitter. i value this community and want it to be a space for interesting, fun, stimulating and challenging conversations. there was never a time when it was that *all the time* but it has been that way sometimes.

i'm just sick of the rut we're in and how much it feels like twitter here. my post was not an attack on calzino or any individual poster so i don't know why he is so upset with me personally.

sorry but fuck this thread, and the shiteposter that started it.

xxpost like in 2011, I had had a good spell posting here after a rocky era start where I was awkwardly trolling, only to get dogpiled in a really vicious thread over two days even after I'd left. as stupid as it might sound, it hurt a lot, because I'm already someone who suffers from anxiety and depression, and tend to believe any terrible thing that's said about me. and the crimes in question that prompted it were relatively minor.

yeah yeah, i know the internet is a bad place but like in other threads we rip on places like 4Chan for being exactly that kind of vile place.

(not that ILX is even remotely approximating that level of evil, obv)

and ilx is generally not that kind of place which is why I want to stick around

The differences are quite obvious (like... character count and threading and...) but the similarities of an online platform are unavoidable. See above to "you know absolutely nothing about me at all."

It's completely unsurprising that many disagree - just as many Twitter users would disagree with ILXors' representations of it. (or Tumblr, or Something Awful or...)
I'm also not saying there's anything wrong with ILX or the lighter meaning of forums/forum relationships, but when you start dipping over into being upset about it - if Twitter fucks with your head, don't use it. If ILX bothers you, don't read or post, or avoid political threads and just read I Love Hoops or whatever. Tailor your online experience - something you can't really do in real life - appropriately and in a healthy way.

like, what, you wanna talk antinatalism?

― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:50 AM

Not really, I was just wondering if different types and levels of depression determined how angry or chilled a place was or if it's more about their other interests. Perhaps I'm just getting a certain impression because the person I know who is most settled about her wish to die is the most gentle poster.

If you don't like the conversations... don't post and don't read in the threads that bother you? Start a sub-board where you can moderate content?

The fact that we've driven most women away from the board should make you rethink this.

We should probably take the politics threads a little less seriously and make a concerted effort to enjoy sub-board threads about baking, stews, books, films, music and found art.

That’s as close as an executive summary as I feel like drafting tonight, I think.

Yeah I don't feel qualified to fully diagnose the problem, let alone prescribe a solution. But I would like people to acknowledge there's a problem.

yeah, that's all i wanted. to just sort of call attention to the fact that there are some dysfunctional patterns here.

Something I find funny about this place is that there are goodness knows how many threads for coping with other threads going badly. Any other forums have this?

Are those threads about posting something you thought twice about, a good idea? Do they just increase tensions and bullying?

;)

The fact that we've driven most women away from the board should make you rethink this.

irrelevant here, given that treeship is being purposely naive complaining about everyone not keeping it appropriately poz and how revives with "two word posts or something" don't meet whatever his standards of good content are.

Some good responses here (Trayce, Neanderthal, Tombot otm). And then also some 'UNHAPPY? UNHAPPY?!? FUCK YOU!!!!!' responses which, well, err...yes, perhaps so.

Never understood why there are so many sub boards

all downhill since totalitarian mods deleted the "Chairman Meow: Best Cat Name?" board imo

ah mods

remember them?

Xxp not sure how that computes milo

what I like about the second thoughts threads is the posts are (to me) are usually completely mysterious

treeship’s complaint is spelled out in the first post - it’s not about whatever issues have driven women off, it’s about his personal tastes as a content consumer. Hence my statement that he should edit his consumption so that it doesn’t upset him.

Never understood why there are so many sub boards (maybe 15 years ago it made more sense). Could merge most of them back to ILE and no-one would bat an eyelid.

― nashwan, Saturday, April 11, 2020 3:57 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

um im to interpret this as open warfare against me and my board, the award-granting I Love Hoops

Not directed in any particular direction here but one of the main sources of friction appears to be misrepresentation. It happens to me a lot more IRL (from my RW cousin) so I'm generally pretty good at dealing with it but I see it happen a lot here between various people. I try not to respond as much as possible to what has just been said and not what was said elsewhere on other occasions, partly because that gets confusing also

I mangled that last sentence beyond belief and misrepresented myself! Its meant to say I try and respond only to what has been said in a particular post

it’s about his personal tastes as a content consumer

I find this unduly harsh, rather salty, with a metallic aftertaste.

Not really, I was just wondering if different types and levels of depression determined how angry or chilled a place was or if it's more about their other interests. Perhaps I'm just getting a certain impression because the person I know who is most settled about her wish to die is the most gentle poster.

― Robert Adam Gilmour

here or on this other board? and how do you judge "gentility"?

i know i've tried to work very hard to be less hostile over the years. i feel like a lot of the people here have also done that work. i appreciate that about this place.

The fact that we've driven most women away from the board should make you rethink this.

― lukas

speaking only for myself, i get very tired when i hear cis men agonize about "driving away women". partly it's that "tokenizing" thing i complained about on the bernie thread today. partly it's that a lot of the time i hear men complain about that there are obvious steps they could do to correct the issue, and not infrequently the same men who complain about "driving away women" are the same ones who are most adamantly opposed to taking any of these steps.

i don't know you nearly well enough to say whether any of these statements apply to you or don't, only that there are few things that make me feel _less_ comfortable somewhere than hearing some guy say "we need to get more lady-women around here!"

I find this unduly harsh, rather salty, with a metallic aftertaste.

So two solutions, if it's that important and not just (again) obtusely naively whining: post interesting things people will talk about. Be the change you want to see etc.. Don't read the stuff that upsets you because it's negative or circular. Don't complain that people aren't 'doing it right.'

you said for the tenth time cuntily in this thread.

milo, take a break

My credo:

I may disagree with what milo says, how he says it, how often he says it, the worldview he bases it on, the cut of his jib, the narrow space that separates his eyes, and the aroma of his breath, but I will defend to his death his right to be cunty, so long as he stays within bounds, and gets off his high horse now and then like a proper human person.

now aimless i dont like that language from you, who was raised right and knows better

here or on this other board? and how do you judge "gentility"?

― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, April 12, 2020 2:54 AM

Other place. Not sure.

We should probably take the politics threads a little less seriously and make a concerted effort to enjoy sub-board threads about baking, stews, books, films, music and found art.

My allegiance is to the bomb-throwing political approach but I have found that disengaging from the politics thread to a slight degree has helped my mental state a bit.

^^ otm

is it time for the quarter-annual "wow there are a lot of people who are being dicks, what a shame" debate

i don't know you nearly well enough to say whether any of these statements apply to you or don't, only that there are few things that make me feel _less_ comfortable somewhere than hearing some guy say "we need to get more lady-women around here!"

i mostly lurk, so as i said i don't feel really qualified to diagnose the problem or offer a solution. it's a different experience and a different understanding of the site. so my options really feel like (1) say nothing (2) say here's a problem i see.

but if it's just a blanket alienating thing to hear ...

... then I guess I could not do that and at least not add to the problem.

I think what Kate is getting at is the implicit diminishment of AMAB women whenever cis dudes point out that hardly any women still post. I’m probably as guilty of it as anyone.

These threads gotta happen every five months or so, ten months. Helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been ten months since the last one. You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning.

i agree we need more women here, I would like to tell them that their taste in music is wrong

xpost lol NV

The debates we are having, over and over, don't really stimulate anyone. We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things" but viciously tear each other apart on points of disagreement. The conversations go in circles and no one learns anything. (I am as guilty of this as anyone).

I can't say if this described the board or not, but this is a perfect description of my irl life!

I’m sure right-leaning folks tear each other apart just as mercilessly.

idk what this thread has been all about but I would like to say my unhappiness predates ILX and I strongly suspect will also outlast it

but also I've been arguing less on here and it has not been a bad thing for my mental health

Whenever a given post can be credibly parsed as ‘fite me bro’ chances are it is deleterious to its poster’s overall mental health no less than to that of their addressee.

yup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKtrWU4zaaI

great revive

ffs

i think milo was being unnecessarily mean and judgmental, but some of their conclusions are right. if you don't like what you see on ilx, try to change it. the critiques against all the politics threads are always funny to me - what do people want? less politics threads? so they can focus more on the other things that are there? why not just post more non-politics things, if it's so obviously the thing that everyone craves?

i can't get to the amazing underlying content i crave for consumption because there are too many politics threads! i can't see the other things! halp

But guys, pls have a think about how many good women used to be here, who arent now.

― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:08 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

stopped reading other posts after I got to this one

b/c it's otm and all other carping about tone or sadness or whatever is irrelevant

I think it's cos the politics threads consume the energies of us weaker-willed posters and if they weren't there we could concentrate properly on rating the Beatles's shlongs

anyway threads are free, start a thread, if people clown you for starting a bad thread start a new one tomorrow, god knows I have

But guys, pls have a think about how many good women used to be here, who arent now.

― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Saturday, April 11, 2020 5:08 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I made another post that was not about this so I have to make up for it by pasting it again

fuck treeship for driving all the women off the board!

- this place has a woman problem.
- it is not surprising to me, having been online as long as I have, but it nonetheless still disappoints me.
- it’s an indictment of ilx that people can troll about rape and carry on posting here.
- thanks to those of you that actually said something.
- people are going to reply to this and be like “oh I didn’t want to get involved/seemed like you could take care of yourself”. Both these points are irrelevant; more people read ilx than post these days, and what gets tolerated sets the tone for what is acceptable.
- posters determine the kind of content they get to see. If there are too many political threads stinking up sna, post more.
- it is INCREDIBLY difficult to start a unique topic that hasn’t been covered before. And it’s pretty off putting when someone links you to some thread that hasn’t been updated in 19 years.

― roxymuzak otm (gyac), Saturday, April 11, 2020 4:17 PM (five hours ago)

here's some of gyac's post again while we're at it

I don't think treeship is driving women off the board, by himself! I think whatever he's unhappy about is not as much of a problem as the fact that we all drove multiple vital and beloved women posters off the board in the last 6 years or so. (Certainly some of them stopped posting for their own life reasons but I'm damn sure some of them didn't.)

We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things" but viciously tear each other apart on points of disagreement.

Narcissism of small differences: C or D?

I’m kinda sad that I took the time to put together an infographic with an iceberg with dolphins and god that actually made a point about the life cycle of messageboards, and meanwhile everyone responded by continuing to complain about how there is nothing new to enjoy reading. It’s like, there’s new stuff, it’s just icebergs and dolphins and god and maybe you’re not into that. So maybe make your own Lisa frank poster

I enjoyed the dolphins, would have liked to see a bit of dolph shlong in there maybe

I don't think treeship is driving women off the board, by himself!

okay karen

I mean I made this thread a while ago, there's all kinds of threads

how damp is YOUR HUSBAND

KM your infographic is very good

my posting style has become hostile because quarantine has shortened my temper and also the world is very bad

ok i'm feeling better again, thank you silby

aimless otm

ILX wavers with the content. When the contributors strive for superior entertainment, thoughtful and lively exchanges, and pointed commentary, then ILX thrives. When the conmtributors descend to jockeying for attention and vapid gossiping, then ILX suffers.

As a cure for the vapours, let me recommend that, if you see a thread that rises above the ruck, then join it and respond in kind. Avoid the temptation to wallow in the others. Over time, the culture of excellence will reassert itself as the competing dreck withers on the vine. Either that, or we all wear funny hats and get slobbering drunk.

― Aimless, Monday, February 9, 2004 11:08 AM (sixteen years ago)

We're mostly liberal and left leaning and agree on the "main things" but viciously tear each other apart on points of disagreement.

Narcissism of small differences: C or D?

I'm not sure this is true - it could equally be -"Illusion that differences are small". Not specifically to do with here but in general, the misconception that Liberals and 'Left Leaning' folks are closer together in how they see the world than they actually are. In some ways with Conservatives its actually easier because the differences are more obvious. With my RW cousin I do pretty well since I dropped any form of countering and asked rather than told. With liberals and left leaning folks the divide is less obvious, but paradoxically might be stronger as on first glance it seems like people on the same team, for want of a better word. Which seems to be why in general we can get into this mode of blaming which might not happen otherwise.

TLDR I'm not so sure those differences are as small as they might appear

Yeah, the idea that liberal and leftist are ideologically close is prob one of the main things that sets those two groups apart.

Gyac OTM. Anvil OTM as well.

Perhaps the original poster - if he bothered to look out of the window while crafting this admittedly highly effective piece of concern trolling - could provide ILX with some examples of people out there who are actually happy right now?

idk what to say about this thread here, if i want to say anything at all. i got lots of feelings here but am not sure how helpful expressing any of them would be. maybe it would be easier to just sigh to myself sadly and walk away.

the more interesting points being raised here are all being lost in people shouting at treeship, which maybe proves his point, maybe doesn't

xxp otm but treeship isn’t concern trolling ffs

I mean I also look askance at the thread question at this particular moment (just as I did when the Cheer Up! thread was revived as a deadly pandemic was taking hold, but I guess tone policing is okay if you strike the right tone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Like the context for “unhappiness” in the uk is millions of people being forced into poverty by a racist right wing govt that just won a massive majority. US is even more dystopian. And yeah, that Coronavirus thing. I think anyone going on about “performative despair” or whatever without knowing where people are coming from are being uncharitable at best and callous at worst

But it’s shit that this has turned into an attack on treeship, a good person whose own (self-admitted!) contribution to the dynamic he outlined in the OP have consisted of passionately arguing that radical economic and environmental justice is drastically needed and being told off by the sensibles for it

If there is a point in OP I agree with, and I think it’s secretly the entire point of the thread - the American politics threads are a fucking state and we all know it, in their Groundhog Day nature and, given the repetitive content, the sheer proliferation (eight concurrent threads to have the same argument about the democratic primaries is deranged, I’m sorry)

Rest of ilx is good including ukpol thread and ilm no need to @ me

im happy matt

id start a thread about it if i thought it was that interesting of a phenomenon outside of ilx but it would end up like this one, for the same reasons

once upon a time the problem with what happened in this thread, and fifty other threads this year or whatever, would not have been identified as treeship btw imo

xp ffs

-- it hadn't occurred to me that ilx had a women problem. i'm not on here often enough to know what usernames are she and what usernames are he and c. ; i hadn't seen the discussion in the swans thread referred to above--because it was in a swans thread, and that band kind of sucks--and it's just breathtakingly awful

-- the uk politics thread is less hateful than the american politics thread, but that's because (REDACTED)

-- treeship always seemed like a good sort to me. maybe the people who want to yell at treeship can have a thread to yell at treeship in and that can be its own thread

This thread was a great one to wake up to so, um, Happy Easter!

ye are kidding yourselves so, so much

treesh is absolutely a good person and a general force for positivity on ilx but treesh you've been around here long enough to know how a thread like this is likely to play out. if i look at the top of SNA at the moment there are multiple threads, most of which i don't care about and will happily ignore, that aren't about politics or people being big old meanies to other people just for questioning their right to exist or something. the only way to "improve the discourse" is what it's always been - post what you care about, ignore what you don't, prepare for a degree of silliness and a degree of downright horribleness every now and then. as long as a poster isn't all horribleness all the time, well, we all contain multitudes.

darragh if you honestly think there should be a uk pol thread for appreciating the important views of non-leftists you could create it and i'm pretty sure most of us would leave it well alone most of the time unless we were pissed

i believe id be called several things for several weeks for being that

what's the word

obtuse

“unless we were pissed” leaving ourselves a big loophole there :D

ha

i'm just being honest :D

nah seriously i know there's been occasions when some of the ad homs have gone over the top but i feel like there's a lot of pass-agg sulking going on from gentle centre-left and centre-right souls that would be better aired and it's not like ilx doesn't give you the tools to do that

just create "I Love the Status Quo and Grinding the Poor" or something, no worries

matt could u pls?

better tack on "and The Fuzz" too

Also, give or take an XYZ/Imago beef the UK politics thread is not really as fractious as all that. It's populated by people who by and large understand and generally respect the positions from which the others are coming from. The people handwringing about it tend to be external to that and don't always get that but most of the rage is directed outwards.

Maybe it's easy to misunderstand or view as more hostile than it is because there's a lot of shorthand on there. There are discussions that just don't need to be had because people have been talking to each other for five years of more.

Maybe "fancy a pint" should change to "fancy a punch-up"

I'm more of a lurker than a poster these days, mostly on ILE thread, but I've been around for a bit and will say this:

The earliest days of this board, as others have mentioned above, were VICIOUS. People went for the jugular in ways that STILL sting this many later, and most of those were attacks that weren't even directed at me. At the time the inclination was often to drift away - I am, frankly, a sensitive person often and have become more so with age - but for whatever reason stayed attached. (Facebook currently consumes too much of my attention.) What can I say? I love you folks; am stuck with you.

It's a weird state of affairs where the threads I read most are US political and that's where the fisticuffs seem to fly most.

Trayce OTM above.

Also, maybe someone said this above and I missed it, but in any event:

Individual WWE grudge arguments aside, y'all could do well to not gang up on individuals and pummel them incessantly. That's happening a lot, to 4-5 posters, and it's like you've misplaced your punching bags or stress balls or something. I know, I know: "don't tread on me, I'll say what I want, suck it up, etc" but seriously. The world has always sucked, sure, but the world has sucked, way, way harder for more people in the last couple years. Take a deep breath before you post sometimes (also true on any social media).

idk what to say about this thread here, if i want to say anything at all. i got lots of feelings here but am not sure how helpful expressing any of them would be. maybe it would be easier to just sigh to myself sadly and walk away.

― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, April 12, 2020 4:46 AM (forty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I considered this too

yeah

pile-ons are ugly and unnecessary but they don't happen to most posters most of the time and when they do happen they tend to involve a diverse range of posters piling on so idk what conclusion to draw there

and jesus they're not much more ugly and unnecessary than this conversation playing out the same way over and over again i'll pack it in now

maybe ye need this lads, or maybe ye feel the need to defend it because of what ye get out of it on your "five people welcome, all good sorts and we all understand the rules" thread

maybe address treeship directly and tell him its good, actually rather than making me or whoever else the avatar for why its good, actually

i cant fucked anymore

great, now it typos

Also, give or take an XYZ/Imago beef the UK politics thread is not really as fractious as all that. It's populated by people who by and large understand and generally respect the positions from which the others are coming from.

I don't want to get too into it for reasons some people have covered above, but I don't agree with this at all now - maybe a couple of years ago. Plus there's a regular external mention of the thread from people who definitely have interests in UK politics but don't want to stick their face in the threshing machine.

external mentions are totes the best way to establish constructive dialogue

I mean, I am really really really done now, but on this point?

Truly laughable the energy people have for being rude to ilxors. I mean, I was told by Fred B that me disagreeing with him on his interpretation of feminism didn’t matter because I was “a friend of xyzzzz” (which isn’t true) and so he felt free to keep trolling and speak on behalf of women (!), and I was supposed to think that was acceptable? But that didn’t get the passive aggressive digs flying in with such fervor (apart from the ones I made myself ofc). But I’ve made my opinion on this incident clear, and it’s also clear from the fact people focused on the comments directed at treeship that they’d rather not engage in that particular discussion, so what’s the point in bringing it up again? Only myself I’m upsetting.

And yeah, I’ve been rude to people. I apologise for that. I only wish every incident of rudeness was so judged, because it does come across like the person saying things is more important than what’s being said. Like, the way people respond to milo is so out of line, but I’m not seeing anyone ask for those pileons to stop?

Fact is, UK thread is good, and funny, and angry, and sometimes we tear strips off each other and sometimes we rally around a person. Reading the comments from Matt and wins and anvil confirms what I thought already reading the overnight posts back; it’s probably best to confine myself to posting in that thread only if I continue ilxing.

Just doing my bit to raise the quality of the board! I’m sure I’ll still get the passive aggressive stuff, but frankly, I’m beyond caring about being accepted by people who have relentless energy for policing my posts in the way they don’t others, and it’s best to stay where I can make a contribution.

gyac, pls keep posting to as much of ilx as you can bear

It can't be a coincidence that there is such unhappyness when the number of unguessed cities is still so high!

The overall effect, especially on the politics threads, is that it's as if the volume has been turned up and the sound is harsh and ugly and less interesting.

― Luna Schlosser, Saturday, 11 April 2020 bookmarkflaglink

counter:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Metal_machine_music.jpg

Utterly remarkable how readable this board is given there might not be any humans left to post on it in 20 years.

dude I don't want to fight any more but 20 years? that would probably have to involve a total nuclear holocaust

Plus there's a regular external mention of the thread from people who definitely have interests in UK politics but don't want to stick their face in the threshing machine.

― Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 12 April 2020 bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, always funny when I see it.

The earliest days of this board, as others have mentioned above, were VICIOUS. People went for the jugular in ways that STILL sting this many later, and most of those were attacks that weren't even directed at me.

What are you thinking of as the earliest days? I remember 01-03 or so as super twee and friendly on an interpersonal level, although opinions about music were often flip and dismissive. There was a harsh period after that, though.

Oh, I see Aimless has said that.

Don't stop posting, gyac. <3

2005-2009 was ILX's nadir.

Yeah, gyac, please don't. Fuck Fred B.

Perhaps the original poster - if he bothered to look out of the window while crafting this admittedly highly effective piece of concern trolling - could provide ILX with some examples of people out there who are actually happy right now?

― Matt DC, Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:36 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

if you're polling, i'm happy right now or at the very least content.

Yeah, gyac, please don't. Fuck Fred B.

Very on board with both halves of this.

apparently he got 51'd today so

maybe just acknowledge that the system works and move on

2005-2009 was ILX's nadir.

Can confirm.

I feel like my personal urge to be mean to treeship has faded quite a bit, mostly because he seems to have shed many of his most Martin Prince-ish tendencies. There are a couple of other posters who(se ILX personae) I genuinely loathe, but I hardly ever engage anymore because who gives a fuck? They're never gonna change. I'd rather talk about music, so I mostly stay on ILM, and go into the politics threads occasionally to drop a link and see what other people (hopefully the smart ones) have to say about it.

I hope my own assholism has waned over the years, particularly compared to the period mentioned above, but it probably hasn't. If you think I'm an asshole, you're probably at least partly right. But I don't attack people - I attack their stupid opinions, and their fucked-up and ridiculous ILX personae, which are not the same thing. If I've ever genuinely hurt anybody, I apologize. This seems like the place to do it.

gyac you’re one of my favourite posters, this place would be very much worse off without you

i figured that ^^^ went without saying but fuck it if we're doing a pile-off i'm saying it too

xxp by God you're our grouchy jazz and metalcore blogger

gyac you’re one of my favourite posters, this place would be very much worse off without you

definitely my second-favourite partner-turned-poster (that we know of) #xls

apparently he got 51'd today so

― dip to dup (rob), Sunday, 12 April 2020 bookmarkflaglink

Admin log says it's permanent. Is that right?

Allowing myself one bit of happiness before the climate apocalypse, as a treat.

ikr, who will you whittle your axe on now ;)

it automatically reads "permanent" when somebody is 51d, sorry to break it to you

Was this in the Biden thread? I haven’t kept up.

NV - the left are crushed, again.

I'm guessing his round-the-clock posting on the allegations against Biden didn't help. Fella does put in a shift, that's for sure.

I wasn't here in the really old days (visited occasionally since 2006 or so) but the notion that things are more abusive or disagreeable now than before is bizarre considering the state of so many old threads, maybe makes more sense if you're aware of behind the scenes social stuff idk. obv as has been said misogyny was & is always a far bigger problem than anger in itself. also politics kind of demands angry reactions if your disagreements are more than superficial

i'd ban that fucker if i could

from my perspective "politics", particularly that sort of "politics" that involves talking about things on the internet, is deeply broken, does have an pit of despair at its center. that's not to say that there's "no point", i wouldn't even agree with that, which is why i periodically get sucked into talking about things, because eventually things will get better but i don't know, have very little control over, how or when or where. i check back because i'm curious, curious about whether people have figured out a way to treat people with kindness and respect, curious as to whether any of us can see a way out of this nightmare hellscape. and of course it always hurts when the answer is once again "not yet, kate".

apparently he got 51'd today so

― dip to dup (rob)

thread delivers

I would like to apologize for calling deej an orangutan 11 years ago

I'm sure deems would love if there were a lot more ILM threads for him to navigate.

I don't think treeship is driving women off the board, by himself!

― silby, Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:15 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

thanks for the vote of confidence!

he, clearly he paid for them to take Ubers off of the board

Many here seem bored when there isn't a clusterfuck happening. Sometimes I cynically think people will respond "jfc" to a controversial post specifically in order to get that juicy clusterfuck snowball rolling down the hill. I don't have a whole lot of IRL friends and among them not many are obscure music fans so I come here a little out of desperation to make a connection and talk about something niche. I prefer a happy fun dorky conversation and would love to see more of them. Can't help rubbernecking when shit hits the fan though I must admit.

here's how dumb i am: i didn't think this would cause a clusterfuck.

i thought people would pretty much acknowledge that the politics threads, at the very least, were in a bad "groundhog's day" situation (as wins put it). but you know, hey.

or, alternately, i thought there would be people saying that kind of conversation is great and make a case for it. haven't heard that either!

I barely read the thread up to this point tbh- I was speaking generally and partially responding to your opening post.

But I don't attack people - I attack their stupid opinions, and their fucked-up and ridiculous ILX personae, which are not the same thing.

wow, uh, gotta hand it to you, that's a very articulate synopsis of the problem. Because everyone has that privileged distance between "self" and "opinions" and "personae" ... and what the fuck, I'm just going to point out that this attitude is ime one associated with cis-het white men in spaces that are mostly dominated by cis-het white men. For people who are minorities in these spaces, we get to be tokens / representatives of our minority status, and then we have "stupid opinions" and "fucked-up and ridiculous personae" ... oh, and we're not supposed to take things personally??

I generally avoid politics threads not because I disagree with the politics of some of the problematic posters, but because I am kinda embarrassed to share their beliefs and support the same candidate(s) as they do, because their posting style is like Phil's quote above.

Idk, I get the anger and desperation and need to vent. I am not saying I am embarrassed about that ... it's like diversity of tactics. I am fine with diversity of tactics ... when it comes to engaging with actual fascists, and real cops, etc. ... on a message board where no one is really the enemy? ... Idk, I now have a better appreciation for the role of professional sports in people's lives now.

I know in one particularly night when I was feeling bleak and hyperanxious, I had it out brutally with Hadrian in a thread, and I briefly turned into one of those singularly-focused rage pile-on robots, but then Hadrian emailed me to talk it out and that brought me back and made me realize what a shit I was being.

so idk how the folk who are just ragecannons 24/7 do it, cos I feel eaten up inside after I have a go at anybody. well, with some exceptions, but none of them that would apply here.

xxp yes, cannot believe that someone on here approaches arguments that way and doesnt twig that the fact other people react badly to it means that actually other people do not consider that they have separate "ilx personae" which are freely available for abuse.

One time on here a couple of posters were really very mean about a very minor celebrity I know IRL and who is a perfectly nice person. I was halfway through typing a defence of them but thought "fuck it, don't want to get into this" and left it. I was impressed to see Suzy do the opposite and actually stand up for her friend the other day, though now feel like a bit of a coward for not doing the same.

Suzy is friends w Boris Johnson? woah

I'm sorry I didn't realise you knew Boho cam

idk how the folk who are just ragecannons 24/7 do it, cos I feel eaten up inside after I have a go at anybody

Because they don’t consider the target to be anybody worth consideration. The ragecannons are generally just having fun performing a schtick.

Damn beaten to it by ums and spellcheck

a lot of what bothers me is some of the rage actors seem to be subconsciously saying "i can be a dick because the thing i am experiencing right now is much worse than whatever you are experiencing, so perhaps you should suck it up" which is presumptuous at best.

a) it's not a contest, b) you have no fuckin' idea. there've been a few times where i was harsh on someone only to learn later that they were going through something brutal and just didn't let on. ya never know. but again, rule A applies

Because they don’t consider the target to be anybody worth consideration. The ragecannons are generally just having fun performing a schtick.

― El Tomboto, Sunday, April 12, 2020 12:45 PM bookmarkflaglink

when u right, u right

idk, I don't perceive a sense of "fun" in the rage of most angry politics posters. People are legit angry and desperate.

I've written more than a few private apologia because I don't want the poster feeling dejected.

and on the flipside, to say that the "ragecannons" as "just having fun performing a schtick" is dismissive, and kinda implies that everyone here is privileged enough to not be at serious risk of really scary shit happening to them as a result of current political issues.

It could certainly be that I’m conflating today’s a-holes (as curated by me) with the a-holes I used to fail at policing in the late 2ks

xxxpost i think most of us in those threads are. i don't think anybody is faking being angry in those threads, nor do I think *every* outburst is unwarranted (I get why Fred was 51'ed), but I do think some of them like to deal with it by projecting their anger onto other posters and using that as therapy

Often I conclude that my incessant reminders of my ethnicity and sexual orientation in the politics thread is another form of ragesplaining.

I feel like certain sub-boards were/are okay for problematic behavior, because there were/are implicit rules of engagement / consensed upon tactics (e.g. Noize bored, 1p3 and ILAFL)-- but ILE is a general board, and essentially open in terms of membership, and so it's trickier to say, "this is okay" and "this is not okay" because you can't get a consensus of everyone who is posting or could post? idk

It could certainly be that I’m conflating today’s a-holes (as curated by me) with the a-holes I used to fail at policing in the late 2ks

― El Tomboto, Sunday, 12 April 2020 16:55 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i recall your ilx-as-bus metaphor fondly haha

raging about suggest bans and meta threads = fun
raging about ways the government is showing the dgaf about your life / lives of those you care about = not fun

I'm just going to point out that this attitude is ime one associated with cis-het white men in spaces that are mostly dominated by cis-het white men.

― sarahell

hard agree. that's the kind of shit i was socialized into, and i do remember, very very vividly, saying exactly that sort of bullshit over a very long period of time. but pointing that out just bumps up against that fragility thing. i'm still shit at accepting criticism for my mistakes. it goes into this sort of internalized guilt and shame for being Part of the Problem, which can be difficult to get past.

i've had a lot of time to practice being kind and i'm not great at it but i feel like i've gotten better at it and it's dramatically improved my life. i firmly believe that it's something anyone can do, no matter what their estrogen levels are, and i strongly recommend making it a regular practice.

How have we made it this deep into the thread with anyone deploying the phrase "internet hardman"?

kinda implies that everyone here is privileged enough to not be at serious risk of really scary shit happening to them as a result of current political issues.

I am at serious risk of really scary shit happening to me as a result of current political issues. I am fucking terrified. Many of the people making the US Politics thread so contentious don’t even fucking live here.

Because they don’t consider the target to be anybody worth consideration. The ragecannons are generally just having fun performing a schtick.

― El Tomboto

ex-ragecannon, hard disagree. any time someone says something i assume they mean it, because my experience is that on some level they usually do.

xxxxxxpost like, in my early 20s, I was in the deepest depths of depression in my life, and granted, most of that was youthful naivety and a lot of not listening to the people around me, but I had few friends, very little money, no ambition, and almost flunked out of college because I just stopped going as i was too depressed to attend, and couldn't even afford my textbooks (and didn't have enough aid to cover them).

My pain was real, sure. But I did spend my time looking for people to tee off on and troll (sometimes even here, under an old nickname that I won't reveal). no, i wasn't happy, and I wasn't enjoying myself, but taking my misery out on other people did provide me temporary pleasure. very temporary, and definitely diminishing returns, but....it was definitely something I was consciously doing.

I don't know enough about most posters here to know what their true driving force is, but considering how little I used to let anybody know the hell i was going through in my 20s, i suspect there are a lot of people here in the same boat.

so i'll walk back my 'otm', because you make good points sarahell. i just think more benefit of the doubt is needed.

How have we made it this deep into the thread with anyone deploying the phrase "internet hardman"?

― Skateboard R Deluxe Throwback Edition (Raymond Cummings)

lol i literally edited that phrase (as a self-descriptor) out of the post i made just before yours

yeah I don't think I've ever rageposted purely ironically xps

fwiw the most recent time I lost my entire shit on here was because an oft-tolerated poster very nearly told me to kill myself.

ex-ragecannon, hard disagree. any time someone says something i assume they mean it, because my experience is that on some level they usually do.

― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:03 PM bookmarkflaglink

this is also true.

My response was not ironic

Tbh I was socialized into this as well, and having to "suck it up" was the price of admission to acceptance into the many traditional "boys only" clubs I was a member of throughout my life. I probably displayed this attitude on ILX a fair amount in the past, too. ... then a bunch of people I knew died in a fire a little over 3 years ago, and the death and the collective trauma, and the community organizing that was required as a result of that event ... it made me think about a lot of things and change a lot.

Many of the people making the US Politics thread so contentious don’t even fucking live here.

ugh :( ...

i think i've said it before but i have seen you change a lot, and it's been awesome, and that's one of the reasons i do value so much as a poster xp

Many of the people making the US Politics thread so contentious don’t even fucking live here.

this is why I try to limit my daily posts there and FP myself when I exceed my self imposed limit lol

xp Kate: you too have changed a lot, and I am happy that you are getting to be you!

Maybe US politics is just a dead end area for “discussion” and the key thing is to start organizing on the local level. (n.b. i don’t do this but would like to). Like, what is there to say? Maybe that is the problem. And I do think some of that sense of grim futility is spilling into other threads, maybe not the ones that are super niche, which is perhaps where I should start hanging out.

Many of the people making the US Politics thread so contentious don’t even fucking live here.

They must be fucking nuts, I try my best to avoid anything seeing, reading, hearing anything about US politics, fuck that shit.

the key thing is to start organizing on the local level.

well, that doesn't make for a lot of ilx discussion ... i mean, i have started threads / posted in threads about the local organizing stuff I am involved in, but ... it's only relevant to maybe 2-5 other active ilxors? ... almost all the threads i hang out in are niche ones.

wow, uh, gotta hand it to you, that's a very articulate synopsis of the problem. Because everyone has that privileged distance between "self" and "opinions" and "personae" ... and what the fuck, I'm just going to point out that this attitude is ime one associated with cis-het white men in spaces that are mostly dominated by cis-het white men. For people who are minorities in these spaces, we get to be tokens / representatives of our minority status, and then we have "stupid opinions" and "fucked-up and ridiculous personae" ... oh, and we're not supposed to take things personally??

I tend to believe that the minute you start typing your thoughts into a little box on a screen, you're putting on a mask. (On the internet nobody knows you're a dog...) And add to that that one of the ways my particular brain is broken is that unless a post contains language to the effect of "As a member of group X which is affected in Y way by politician Z's approach to issue AA," I place every poster on an equal plane with myself, for purposes of discussion. (Assume a can opener.)

(I also mentally picture everyone as being my height until I meet them. Since I'm 6'2", I am far more frequently wrong than right about this.)

So no, I'm not thinking "that minority person has a stupid opinion," I'm thinking, "that opinion is stupid." And your IRL identity is not, to me, your ILX persona.

N.B. other posters have said things to me in the past which were personally insulting and which I found extremely hurtful. So I try to never attack anyone about anything they may have revealed about their real, non-ILX life. For whatever that's worth. But again, if you think I'm an asshole, you're probably right.

it's not relegated to ilx either. one usually astute acquaintance of mine, who was actually a loud voice of reason after Pulse and other tragedies, spent most all of the coronavirus debacle urging people to come to the wine bar she worked at, even as the prevailing logic was "stay at home", and neighboring counties were on curfews. then they blew up angrily when Desantis, who has been adittedly terrible through this whole ordeal, finally did something I agreed with and closed all bars. saying that he just killed all small businesses.

There were a few people put off by the suggestion that the closing of bars was the wrong move, especially as this person had also argued against curfews, had made little mention of the legitimate health impacts of the pandemic, and seemed to be only focused on how the coronavirus impacted the bar she worked at and nothing else. so a few people made comments suggesting that the virus really forced Desantis's hand. and then these posters got attacked by friends for mansplaining. then the OP actually directed her other friends to pile on both of them.

obviously mansplaining is a real thing that I witness daily, and cis-het white people do need to stfu and listen rather than talk all the time. but this specific example seemed less like mansplaining and more like the OP trying to prevent actual discussion because she wanted to whine about her wine bar being closed, even though at that point, almost everybody's business was closed - including the people commenting.

but....i've seen since that this person is kind of a nutbar so I defriended them anyway.

700xposts

I tend to believe that the minute you start typing your thoughts into a little box on a screen, you're putting on a mask. (On the internet nobody knows you're a dog...)

so clearly, if you responded to every poster as if they were a dog, you would be totally justified??

But again, if you think I'm an asshole, you're probably right.

I appreciate this. Thanks.

I tend to believe that the minute you start typing your thoughts into a little box on a screen, you're putting on a mask.

I mean....some posters, maybe? I don't view my persona as anything but a slightly more awkward extension of myself. I'd probably use my government name if I wasn't afraid of what I wrote showing up in google searches, not because I'm flame warring people, but because some of my participation in the anti-police threads or my views on organized religion making me a target for harassment. or my employer finding an excuse to fire me.

also: posts about shit, butts, and dicks ...

The elevation to peerage was the best thing to happen to my posting life.

FTR, sarahell, you're one of the posters I most enjoy reading here.

xxpost hey what're you

*looks at dn*

ahh, right

i enjoy sarahell too!

i enjoy most posters here now actually. the few I hated are long gone

i would hope that your employer would give you an award for your astute contributions to the buttrock thread tbh

they gave me a plaque but it was made out of peanuts

thanks for the compliments! ... i should get back to work. I can't decide whether being overwhelmed with work is the one thing keeping me from losing my shit and abject terror and despair

definitley the reason i'm more stressed on weekends than weekdays. work might be hell atm, but it is a hell that is familiar

if anyone wants to know/discuss the finer points of and, er, implementation problems of PPP and EIDL loans ... is there a thread for that?

I asked about it in the freelance hivemind thread a few days ago but didn't get any responses. I applied for the EIDL grant or whatever it's called Friday morning.

I am at serious risk of really scary shit happening to me as a result of current political issues. I am fucking terrified. Many of the people making the US Politics thread so contentious don’t even fucking live here.

― crüt, Sunday, 12 April 2020 17:03 (twenty-nine minutes ago) link

From my time of reading it that isn't exactly true. Lots of Americans disagree among themselves.

What goes on in the US affects what goes on in the world to an unfortunate degree and besides there are parallels between the US/UK left -- which is all worth exploring -- hence my posts on it.

EIDL and PPP have been disasters. I've seen two people who've gotten the PPP loan and zero who've gotten anything related to the actual EIDL.

Lots of people mad that the $10k grant for the EIDL isn't (apparently) going to be $10k across the board but based on number of employees (hurting freelancers and the like)

being overwhelmed with work helps me because it motivates me to do all kinds of healthy self-care things to distract me from the work i'm supposed to be doing. i've done such a great job with showering and putting on clothes!

is boris johnson actually dead yet?

No, and this is adding to my ILX unhappiness

pasting tweets into threads isn’t really posting...

I know! It seems like it though, given some of the reactions.

there's a pretty strong current of ilx that's always been defined by a 'i'm really smart' kind of vibe bordering on narcissism that i have a love/hate relationship with but am tired of more than usual. there are always bright spots which is why i stick around - right now the rona thread, recurring enthusiasms of certain posters. personally am turned off by what seems to be neurotic overposting but don't begrudge people for it. i take solace in lazy shitposting with no real malice or agenda at hand. i'm finally outgrowing my compulsion to randomly abuse people i think. not to excuse it but it's related to trauma i'm finally getting over. i took a break for a few weeks in march because i acted that way toward somebody and just wasn't getting what i needed by being here. this place is definitely a 'small doses' kind of spot for me though there are people here i really like and care about (though i'm also connected with them thru fb). anyway thanks treeship for starting our quarterly ilx check-in.

I’m kinda sad that I took the time to put together an infographic with an iceberg with dolphins

This ruled.

sorry for the facetious trolling about your excellent infographic, Karl.

I do still think there is too much classic rock on ILM of course.

oh jeez, no worries! i wasn't actually sad that i took the time, i just thought it would be a funny thing to say :)

I do still think there is too much classic rock on ILM of course.

― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length)

and not enough dud rock

Karl: you know you have been named Project Manager of Infographics for the Trolling Support Team??

I loved the infographic

And if my thread could inspire that, well—it’s all been worth it

oh wow, sarahell, i did NOT know that! thank you so much! i have to say, this is a surprise, but not completely unexpected. i have been tracking both the number and overall quality of my infographics for a number of years now, and i think it's pretty clear that the trend has been upwards on both counts. however, if you refer to the lighter marble 3D line, you can see that there is further room for improvement. i'll be sure to track that improvement and update you all every single one of you, individually, along the way!!

https://i.imgur.com/ky6qnDi.png

(later that evening, by the cold open window)

oh god i'm so lonely

I especially liked the inclusion of "god". Been wanting to start a 'Music for Lisa Frank' thread but 'Make your own damn Lisa Frank poster!' would also be welcome.

So I'm a new poster and don't wanna weigh in on a lot of this, obv. But:

- it is INCREDIBLY difficult to start a unique topic that hasn’t been covered before. And it’s pretty off putting when someone links you to some thread that hasn’t been updated in 19 years.

Yeah very, and also when the existing artist/album threads are only updated for dumping news. If the few other people in the room are going, 'ooh, the Strokes have a great new single out' I usually do not take this as an invitation to write a longform post on why I do not care for the Strokes re: a decade+ old discussion. Usually, anyway.

The new Strokes single is terrible, you should write that longform post.

But then I'd have to listen to it.

I can’t take rageposting, if that means you people think I’m a snowflake or privileged, I can live with that, but it just makes me nervous and I have to tune it out, killfile that poster for a long time. But some posters get over it: to name one, El Tomboto was too ragey for me and I killfiled them for a long time, but recently checked again and so far it’s been ok. Posters change! I just don’t like to be shouted at.

Have better opinions then

Some fuckboy once described ilx as an "unmoderated abuse board", a phrase that always stuck with me

― Treeship, Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:26 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Looking forward to Danny Dyer's forthcoming documentary series on the UK politics threads because I'm not hard enough to go there myself.

Bwitain's Hardest Thweads

Thanks Euler, I appreciate that.

this is a thread

Yer all a shower of bastards

to not control your rage is a deep personal weakness, but to not care to control it is a crime

sing in the shower of bastards, ilxors, sing out

looks like we don't really love everything after all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxUIZOzd5E

C'mon people now
Shit on yr brother

from Machiavelli's 1525 History of Florence (Walter Dunne's 1901 translation): "The youth having become more dissolute than before, more extravagant in dress, feasting, and other licentiousness, and being without employment, wasted their time and means on gaming and women, their principal study being how to appear splendid in apparel, and attain a crafty shrewdness of discourse."

^ These complaints by the middle-aged-to-elderly are evergreen. The youth never make these complaints about themselves.

The unhappiness of ilx

heres the entire image pic.twitter.com/HipkAvl1qT

— ewan morrison (@MrEwanMorrison) July 4, 2019

a crafty shrewdness of discourse that annoys the shit out of you

All for shrewd discourse, me.

FPed

I forgive you

It's shrove discourse ffs

ilx is all lenten stuff, when you think about it.

and yet none of us is quite able to give it up.

A most ingenious paradox.

when will we start listening to what marvin said

Let’s get it on?

Happy borads are all alike, each unhappy borad is unhappy in its own fashion.

when will we start listening to what marvin said

― Kate (rushomancy),Tuesday, April 14, 2020 2:10 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

"Now that's some good badger milk"?

THAT CREATURE HAS STOLEN THE SPACE MODULATOR!

this makes me very angry very angry indeed

Marvin? he was a friend of mine

"Life? Don't talk to me about life."

You know that new sound you’re looking for?

THAT CREATURE HAS STOLEN THE SPACE MODULATOR!

― Fleetwood Machiavelli (Ye Mad Puffin),Tuesday, April 14, 2020 4:18 PM
Lol

that is a good thing obviously and i myself suffer from depression.

i just don't think there needs to be so many politics threads. where are the great debates happening that aren't to do with politics? where something feels like it's at stake but it's not über bleak? i would like to see links to those threads, if they're on ILM or wherever.

― treeship.,Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:52 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

So you're saying there should be an I Love Politics board...?

― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length),Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:53 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

i think so, yeah

― treeship.,Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:54 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I just know that I was one of the loudest cheerleaders for the creation of I Love Soccer or whatever its called, to stop those damned kids from kicking their Jabulanis into my yard. All I'm saying is I'd welcome back all those orange-slice eaters into ILE with a hat in hand apology if it meant that the politics threads could find a new home. Preferably in a secret borad that I'll never ask for the invite to.

There's a regularly updated football thread on ILE still. Could make the same exception for politics. Everyone's happy!

I just don’t like to be shouted at.

i have never killfiled anyone but i don't like to be subjected to other people's rage either
irritability and anger are signs of other deeper problems and venting them doesn't solve the problems, it just sprays the problems onto more people
ideally if i have anything to say about it, i am not one of those people getting sprayed

i get that other people talk through their issues in different ways; i'm just not here to get doused in angry droplets

Some posters have taken up very hostile posting styles and have said that they see this as a place to vent or express their despair.

Can I just say that treeship started this thread to complain about other posters doing a thing that he is an absolute master of? Nobody performs their wailing and garment-rending better.

He literally wrote "(I am as guilty of this as anyone)." in the OP

Ok I know this has gone round a time or two but I am having trouble seeing a huge unbridgeable difference between:

A. Not reading a politics thread that is on ILE

and

B. Not reading a politics thread that is on ILP (or whatever)

Not trying to be a jerk, and am happy to be schooled on how different these actions are.

i think the difference is that it's possible to mute entire sub-boards. someone could plausibly mute all of ILP while still enjoying the suddenly reinvigorated ILE, full of glorious discussion and controversial opinions now that politics has gone away

If the board is made, and it won't be, it should be called I Hate Politics

personally, i use site new answers and leave every board on, because i believe in the mission of ilx

It should be called I Enjoy Enemas

Can I just say that treeship started this thread to complain about other posters doing a thing that he is an absolute master of? Nobody performs their wailing and garment-rending better.

― WmC,Tuesday, 14 April 2020 20:48 (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

He literally wrote "(I am as guilty of this as anyone)." in the OP

― dip to dup (rob),Tuesday, 14 April 2020 21:00 (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

also very unfair to characterise any of treeship's admittedly signature styles as either of these things

but theres twenty posters perform their wailing and garment rending better. twice twenty.

treeship a very handy punchbag for certain ppl on the board imo.

maybe certain posters make acceptable punchbags or maybe itd be more honest to say we all have different behaviours and characteristics we like in our punchbags and treeship is either in some peoples sweet spot or hasnt got whatever x factor would have enough others jumping in to stop it.

also a politics board wouldnt work.

think of the first thread on ile where someone was told "nope thats politics, take it to ILP"

im gonna pour myself a nice scotch and just sit and enjoy a few minutes thinking of that clusterfuck, and it repeated ten times a week.

There's a regularly updated football thread on ILE still. Could make the same exception for politics. Everyone's happy!

― nashwan,Tuesday, April 14, 2020 1:37 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

it's by far the most popular football thread and always has been. the separate forum kept about 0.5% of football posts off of ile

Football and Film are following on from ILB, which has somehow kept the majority of books discussion separate from ILE (which has a lot of its own threads devoted to books and authors in the archives). So it follows the same lines but for some reason only the Books sub-board seems to have a distinct identity.

Politics wouldn't work because it's a subset of current affairs discussion, and much else besides. A disaster like covid is very much tied with the political response so you actually need one thread for that which does not involve this.

personally, i use site new answers and leave every board on, because i believe in the mission of ilx

― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone),Tuesday, April 14, 2020 4:10 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

o captain my captain

no, i really see the motivation here. if we don't have to talk about politics, we don't have to worry about it. we can just completely avoid all that unpleasantness and strife. it's pretty much the same thing as football, right?

i use sna and leave every board on because i am old and stupid and don't know how to do anything different

it's pretty much the same thing as football, right?

horse racing iirc

How about I Don't Like Politics, a sub-board where no political discussion is allowed

I am old and stupid

I'm sorry, Kate, but I can't parse that, because "old" obviously can't mean old and "stupid" certainly can't mean stupid. I'm stumped.

xp a better idea but again the first time anyone tries to invoke it, there'll be tears

it's pretty much the same thing as football, right?

Let's see: tribalism, ancient grievances, regional chauvinism, extreme tendentiousness, fierce loyalties, public betrayals of those loyalties, greed, confirmation bias, silly hats, violence, injuries, uniforms, domestic abuse, mental illness, pointless death, purported displays of obligatory patriotism, principled questioning of obligatory patriotism, domestic draft beer, network television, commentators in bad suits, and nachos.

So far I think politics just needs more nachos, and THEN they'll be the same thing.

rooney defending the right

If Joe Biden was a millennial he'd definitely be one of those Americans with an Arsenal tattoo

I'm sorry, Kate, but I can't parse that, because "old" obviously can't mean old and "stupid" certainly can't mean stupid. I'm stumped.

― A is for (Aimless)

awwww, you're a sweetie. it means i have a history of negative self-talk and i am grateful to you for calling me on it. 3>

xp a better idea but again the first time anyone tries to invoke it, there'll be tears

― ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac)

ok, let's roll with that. how about I Love A Good Cry, a board where we all give each other virtual hugs and tell each other what amazing people we are?

fine, but the first time anyone oh I see what youve done there

who's happy right now? no sentient person