Rolling Race 2021

I am posting this here because it seems that Starville Methodist Church is actually Starville CME Church

https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/crime/suspect-in-custody-after-shooting-at-starville-methodist-church/501-54e381fc-cefe-4004-b9ca-8b5ab3fffbb4

Here’s a good old ‘AnTi-RaCiStS aRe ThE rEaL rAcIsTs’, courtesy of the Hungarian government:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/budapest-black-lives-matter-artwork-rightwing-backlash

update on Miya Ponsetto, the nutjob who tackled a kid in nyc: she's been arrested after doing an interview with gayle king
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/nyregion/arlo-hotel-keyon-harrold.html

Over the course of the interview, which was conducted remotely, Ms. Ponsetto grew increasingly agitated and confrontational. At one point, as Ms. King pressed her on taking more responsibility for her actions, Ms. Ponsetto held up a hand to the camera as if to silence her.

“All right, Gayle,” Ms. Ponsetto said. “Enough.”

(Her lawyer) Ms. Ghatan then leaned over to her client, whispering: “No, stop. Stop.” Capt. Eric Buschow of the Ventura County Sheriff’s Office said that Ms. Ponsetto had been arrested in Piru, Calif., a small town about 45 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles where she has been living.

Ms. Ponsetto was driving to her neighborhood at around 4:30 p.m. local time when deputies and New York police officers pulled her over, Captain Buschow said. Ms. Ponsetto refused to get out of the car at first and slammed a door on a deputy before being pulled from the car and taken into custody, he said.

actually, apologies for "nutjob" as she's probably dealing with genuine mental issues.

I watched that interview. That girl is not dealing with any mental issue deeper than being a pampered 22-year-old who's never been told "no" in her life.

I'm not going to pretend like I can reliably identify who is mentally ill and who isn't from a distance but I am pretty comfortable in saying actions have consequences and I am glad this woman was arrested.

yeah, even her lawyer had to tell her to quit being an ass during the interview. and for some reason she felt she had the authority to actually approach civilians and demand they show her her phones, but only picked the Black customer to actually accost and tackle.

i'm comfortable saying that anyone who reacts to being pulled over by the cops by slamming the door on them - or who unprovoked tackles a child! - is probably not doing well mentally. and that's not an excuse or justification for her behavior in any way but i do feel like i should be more careful about calling people "nuts".

i am also pro "actions have consequences," especially right now.

Lol I don’t need to know anything about her mental health, she’s racist as shit and she seems horrible in every way. That interview, Jesus.

In the wake of neo-confederates storming the Capitol I've been thinking a lot about the "this is not who we are" debate/memes and certain differences between right and left. I remember hearing once the observation that the driving emotion of the right is anger, while the driving emotion of the left is guilt. I'm sure it's an oversimplification, but it's interesting how it feels like the counterbalance to the boastful "we are great" attitude of the right is the baleful "we are terrible" attitude of the left. Which, I mean, we are. But humanity is terrible. I sometimes feel like the American left discourse around racism as America's original sin takes on a religious quality (I mean, duh, "original sin") and I'm not always sure whether it winds up helpful. Or maybe it does, overall, but it can take detours where white people on the left undergo all kinds of ritual self-flagellation and introspection that I'm not sure advances things. Guilt can certainly have good outcomes, in fact some guilt is necessary to having a conscience. But something still feels very sackcloth-and-ashes about a lot of today's white discourse around racism. Surely it's better than the opposite. I'm sort of wondering aloud really, I don't have a definite take on this.

I don't know the right way to deal with this but it's not great that there is a whole industry now catering to "anti racist allies" which seems to have a primarily therapeutic purposes for the "anti racist" on a personal level- like this is how acknowledging your privilege will make you a better person and relieve you of your burdens etc. despite all the theatrics it's a hell of a lot easier to acknowledge one's privilege than to actually try to dismantle it and there's way too much of the former that doesn't even seem to acknowledge that the latter is also necessary

the religious thing is just the most accessible language we have for something this huge but it's a problem if anti racism becomes about seeking personal absolution instead of changing the world whatever language it's wrapped up in

I think the guilt is baked in and won't go away as long as colonialism and white supremacy still structure the world- the right wing response is actually pretty attuned to this I think, more than the left, their denial and projection is actually functional

Yeah, I think that last point is important. There’s a recognition among conservative “thinkers” that national myths serve a political purpose and also make people more comfortable in their own lives. I guess my question is whether national guilt/sin serves an equally powerful purpose - does it spur people to action or just to therapeutic steps as you put it? I would hope maybe it’s both. Of course there’s an inherent imbalance between a side that tells you to be more selfish and a side that tells you to be more selfless - the former is the path of less resistance.

I don't know the right way to deal with this but it's not great that there is a whole industry now catering to "anti racist allies" which seems to have a primarily therapeutic purposes for the "anti racist" on a personal level

heh, this goes back to the Catholic Church selling indulgences.

the religious thing is just the most accessible language we have for something this huge but it's a problem if anti racism becomes about seeking personal absolution instead of changing the world whatever language it's wrapped up in

I think the guilt is baked in and won't go away as long as colonialism and white supremacy still structure the world

see there's kinda the crux of it though ... like, is that even possible (for colonialism and white supremacy to not structure the world)? And that goes back to the sinful nature of humanity issue that is tied up with the colonialism and white supremacy ...

so from one perspective an answer could be no which is why the world and humanity (if both are taken as colonial constructions) must be abolished

from a perspective that takes the world and humanity as givens there would still have to be reparations but I don't see how there could be any point at which people could say it's sorted and the world is fixed now

wrt national guilt spurring people into action my family is german and that country has gradually become better at rhetorically acknowledging the awfulness of one specific period of its history (don't mention namibia)- to the extent that there is sometimes a twisted form of national pride over how good they are at apologising for their past (which is nevertheless firmly in the past) meanwhile the world has been irrevocably changed and Germany is (relatively) thriving again. then you have fringe weirdos like the Antideutsche as well as more mainstream liberals whose apparent rejection of the legacy of nazi antisemitism just becomes an excuse for islamophobia and uncritical support for US foreign policy. and those for whom all this shame is humiliating, who demand an unapologetic nationalism to make Germany great again. guilt seems to be a factor in all of these responses and if this example is anything to go by it's not encouraging as the only motivator for "reconciliation" (a euphemism). which obviously isn't to say that shamelessness would be better

don't get me started on britain and its weirdly aggressive combo of nostalgia and denial that characterises its attempt to suppress any guilt over how it got rich (because everyone knows, really)

The idea of associating the left = guilt implies the left is mainly white people. A start might be following black ideological leadership imo

yeah we're pretty much talking about white people in the race thread ... Deej otm

Journalists will never fucking change.

Just an observation about the media:

We’ve gotten dozens of request from political reporters asking to be connected with veterans who became right-wing extremists.

But we’ve gotten zero interest in the perspective of POC troops who had to cope with extremists in their units.

— Alexander McCoy (@AlexanderMcCoy4) January 21, 2021

inserts "pretends to be shocked.gif" here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/25/us/black-us-senators-history-trnd/index.html

I would like to see a similar rundown for other ethnicities.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/star-new-york-times-reporter-donald-mcneil-accused-of-using-n-word-making-other-racist-comments
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2021/01/28/donald-mcneil-new-york-times-controversy

So, did he call a student the n-word or was he participating in a discussion where he introduced the n-word as an example of a certain style of rhetoric, because if it was the latter I am much more inclined to think the NYT did the right thing

i think that's likely the question being had in the boardroom right now and i'm assuming it's the latter as well.

y'all what is going on with K-Pop

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/01/entertainment/k-pop-sowon-nazi-photos-apology-scli-intl/index.html

This is a linked article from 2018: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/13/asia/bts-simon-wiesenthal-complaint-intl/index.html

Nothing new here:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xd5bdd/nazis-chic-is-asias-offensive-fashion-craze-456

In 2016 Sony Music had to apologize after Japanese girl band Keyakizaka46 wore black capes and hats similar to the SS uniform during a stage performance.

Two years before that, South Korean pop group Pritz said they never intended to look like Nazis when they dressed in black shirts with red armbands in a music video.

this is fascinating to me

btw I'm not clicking on a Vice link on the rolling thread about race, that is taking irony several steps too far

xp
wth is going on with Vice's "more like this" algorithm

Haven't been keeping up with Vice's latest transgressions, sorry.

Try this instead:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/27/asia/taiwan-nazi-school-asia/index.html

that 2016 CNN article is quoted in the 2018 CNN article I posted

lol I guess CNN was like "nailed it the first time"

you can track this in India too

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/world/asia/india-hitler-childrens-book.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8660064.stm

That's not Hitler on the cover of the book, it looks like a waxwork... of Bruno Ganz.

color me unsurprised: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/08/entertainment/morgan-wallen-record-sales/index.html

I keep hearing that this is getting worse.

https://www.thecut.com/2021/02/the-us-is-seeing-a-massive-spike-in-anti-asian-hate-crimes.html?fbclid=IwAR0pvq2ZLSpxoX0iSQ3p1HBPJPOkyNJNSocsyH0-gmFcXvAz4fEF16F4M2M

smith college again:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html

https://www.espn.com/soccer/ac-milan/story/4324640/zlatan-ibrahimovic-to-lebron-james-do-what-youre-good-at,-stay-out-of-politics

I don't follow soccer but I've seen this guy's name before. If anyone needs to shut the fuck up, it's him.

In a February 2011 interview, Ibrahimović stated that the boxer Muhammad Ali is one of his role models, going on to say: "One of my idols in sport and outside the sport also..he believed in his (principles) and he never gave (them) up."

good thing Muhammad Ali never did any politics

You can tell Ibrahimović follows his own advice. He proudly doesn't use his brain for anything outside of playing his position.

I’m sure Zlatan is 100% cool with this totally apolitical incident:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11863/12227404/zlatan-ibrahimovic-uefa-opens-investigation-after-ac-milan-striker-racially-abused-at-red-star-belgrade

ibrahimovic is an obnoxious idiot

Ibrahimovic is a mouthy fuckhole

he was in MLS last year, lots of fans grew to hate him statewide

😕

I love Black history.
But the 1619 Yoga Project is a little too much for me. pic.twitter.com/V1TffnyCTl

— Michael Harriot (@michaelharriot) February 27, 2021

oh no

it's hardly the most upsetting element of the video, but that CADENCE

Uhh...

the cheerful warmth of the tone and cadence makes it sound that getting on boats to become slaves was a nice thing for black people to do .... yeah, ughhhhhh

Meanwhile, over at Oberlin:

https://www.facebook.com/1569723009914148/posts/2922254581327644/?d=n

that is terrible but it is also...hilarious.

did no one, when putting together that banner think..."oops. maybe we don't show their photographs?"

and this is Oberlin? ... damn.

A friend sent this to me last night— (I minored in music comp at said institution). Seems like an obvious case of someone shitting the bed on design for a flier, the response to criticism being atrocious, and the whole thing spiraling into an awful controversy because of a hit parade of mistakes on the Con's end of things.

Another friend posted on the original (now removed) IG post— "Well there is a little bit of the color black in each photo, maybe it's a conceptual piece?"

lol ... your friend is great.

(You'd probably get along with him, sarahell, he started West Nile, the east coast version of East Nile. One of the Shinkoyo boys.

ohhhhhhh nice!!!

that is terrible but it is also...hilarious.

a million times OTM

A little bit white really.
Very condescending sounding tone to the yoga teacher's voice. Is that intentional cos she's got kids in her audience.
& is the idea thought through properly should this be the 2 elements you want to combine.
Couldn't you reenact the voyage of Abu Bakari from 200 years earlier if you wanted to be positive. Or pretend you were wearing leg chains in an oh so tasteful way if you didn't.

I would say “don’t pretend you’re wearing leg chains”

Just thunk it about matched the taste level.
& it might just possibly wake whoever was writing that routine up.
Like wondered if there was a point too far for tehm

xp, a good rule of thumb in general

I am literally begging you to move the Netflix logo on this image https://t.co/nIriKbf7XB

— David Thomas Moore (@dtmooreeditor) March 2, 2021

why did I look at this while my work meeting camera is on

xp I was being intentionally tasteless if that wasn't clear.
Wasd that like a pseudo woke yoga meeting , have met supposedly liberal theatre makers who seem to be about as tactful as that appeared.
So yeah thought I'd take the p. Only saw a bit of that so they didn't actually move further in taht direction did they.
What's the next stage in that sequence after pretending to be boats ?

I'll leave it to others to comment on this, but it seemed worth a mention

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hbo-on-lovecraft-country-extras-claim-her-skin-was-darkened-this-should-not-have-happened

hoo boy

Papa John’s ex-CEO says he’s been working for the last 20 months “to get rid of this N-word in my vocabulary” (h/t @mount_bees) pic.twitter.com/8heITnJJxA

— philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) March 8, 2021

guys he's really TRYING

I love the idea of this dude literally spending 20 months with a diction coach trying to get the n-word out of his vocabulary and failing

20 months???

now that i think about it there aren't any pizza toppings that start with the letter "n"

(i am aware that someone british is typing one right now)

Nutella and new potatoes

there it is

Nduja

"know what else you can put on a pizza, is n-"
"PAPA JOHN, NO"

meanwhile, Armie Hammer is all 'hey I heard you got a pizza for me'

https://www.thedailybeast.com/teen-vogue-staff-rail-against-new-editor-in-chiefs-past-tweets-mocking-asians

1. maybe I'm square but AFAICR this is my first time seeing the acronym "AAPI" (asian american and pacific islanders)
2. I know we've done "how did neither you nor your new employers vet your social media presence before taking this major media job?" before, but this is one of the more dunderheaded ones considering, well, it's Teen Vogue! hyper-wokeness is their entire brand at this point!

AAPI's been used on govt forms since at least the '90s, probably further back

weird coincidence that this woman was dating the Biden staffer who just got let go because some reporter harassed him about their relationship

that said, we've all spoken dumb shit when we were 19 years old, and McCammond did apologize at least

AAPI's been used on govt forms since at least the '90s, probably further back

my Canadian ignorance again reveals itself

it IS a little off we all get lumped together that broadly, but ya know, America

On some level, I have to admire the brazen chutzpah of this explanation: https://apple.news/AlC9Qs0cgRZGTI3w6W7suMQ

tired: "I was caught up in the heat of the moment and used words I regret"
wired: "My Type 1 diabetes made me say racist things"

"you can't punish me, this is a side-effect of my pre-existing medical condition" is absolutely swinging for the fences and it's making me laugh a lot harder than it should

lol, amazing. Is this the reason he's no longer a youth pastor or…?

On a tangential note, do Apple News links work on non-Apple operating systems?

yeah, it redirected me to NBC News on my Windows machine

(I didn't realize I was posting an Apple News link when I was on my phone)

"I'm not racist, I'm hangry"

I am reading his statement and crying with laughter

During this time I was with a colleague and friend Scott Sapulpa. Scott Sapulpa was not the one who made these comments, it was me and me alone. It is not my desire to shirk my responsibility in this matter and I certainly do not want Scott Sapulpa to share in the blame of this most unfortunate incident.

"To be 100% clear, Scott Sapulpa had nothing to do with this. My coworker Scott Sapulpa did not make these comments, I did. No one should associate Scott Sapulpa, that S-A-P-U-L-P-A, 'Sapulpa', with these racist comments."

While the comments I made would certainly seem to indicate that I am racist,

Yes, they certainly do-

I am not, I have never considered myself to be racist,

Oh! Well that's sorted, QED

and in short cannot explain why I made these comments.

It's such a conundrum! He has never considered himself to be a racist and yet he made these terribly racist comments. HOW CAN THIS BE? itisamystery.jpg

My diabetes has been racism-ing, not me

It's like a William Burroughs parody: "The Man Who Taught His Pancreas To Talk (And Discovered It Was Horribly Racist)"

I went down a rabbit hole with this and found this horrifying thing: https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/24/8/1498.1

Whoa, that is terrible.

Kara Walker comes to mind
Also the twinkle defense

https://www.ethicaleditor.com/entertainment/twinkle-khanna-comes-out-in-defense-of-people-who-publicize-charitable-acts-on-social-media/

what is going on at the end of that page

Aiui that's not what the Twinkie defense was? It was "This person is mentally unwell and the evidence is that his personal habits have deteriorated to the point of eating an extremely unhealthy diet among other indicators," not, "His blood sugar made him do it."

Just to be clear that person was mentally fine and was in fact a racist and homophobe and probably a terrorist depending on your working definition, ijs.

Yeah my referent was that both defendants were full of sugary shit

AIUI? IJS?

As I Understand It
I'm Just Saying

my kara walker point, in case i was being too subtle:
https://creativetime.org/projects/karawalker/curatorial-statement/

Sorry,forks! I'm not familiar with Kara Walker.

no worries! walker's work is hit or miss for me on computer screens and print but it's generally impressive as all hell to see in person. I regret missing "A Subtlety" as all the video and conversations people had with me about it made it sound monolithic and intense

I've only seen her silhouette work in person, but yeah it was striking and formidable

This article about people who take on racial identities not their own is pretty fascinating, and also baffling. I mean, my maternal grandfather was Mexican — my mom's last name is Guevara — but I would never call myself Latin, especially not in some kind of "I deserve tenure/a book deal for my pain" kind of way. These people have zero connection to the cultures and ethnicities they're claiming, and then they (frequently) have the stones to accuse other people of being inauthentic.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/atlanta-area-shootings-03-17-21/index.html

This shit is going to keep happening for a while

i am so sad about this. reminds me of Charleston, reminds me of how often racist violence is directed at women, worried about my Asian American students who feel like their peers don't think racism against Asian Americans is "a thing," so despairing about guns in this country that mean no one is safe, worried already about fucked up responses to these killings because of the dehumanization of Asian women, particularly sex work-adjacent Asian women, just overwhelmed and don't know what to do with myself.

also i wish my twitter feed weren't full of the killer's fucking face.

it's very concerning. part of me still (optimistically) wants to believe that maybe some of these anti-Asian hate crimes are being mislabeled or coincidental, like freak attacks by mentally ill homeless persons, but this one is impossible to ignore.

I've been hearing statistics of anti Asian violence over the last week on several podcasts sounds like it is a rising number.
Doesn't help that to certain people they 'all look alike' and the last President was trying to fob off the virus as being Chinese and he had been doing a lot of counterintelligent shenanigans aimed at the Chinese since he was elected.

i think it is hard to generalize about the attacks that have popped up in the news lately--there are a lot of things happening at the same time, and it's hard to identify what the connections are. there's growing anti-Asian resentment of the "these people are taking our jobs" variety (i remember shortly after Trump was elected a white cabbie telling me all about the Asians taking over, and he didn't seem to consider me Asian, maybe because he was thinking about east Asians, though I doubt his thinking was very clear), the anti-Asian sentiment rooted in anger about coronavirus and Trumpian "Chinese virus" comments, a much older dehumanization of working class Asian women rooted in American wars in Korea and Vietnam and sex work, and then the older intra-American forms of anti-Asian sentiment about exploitation of Chinese labor beginning in the late 19th century. complicating everything is that some of the incidents getting a lot of publicity pre- the Atlanta shootings were incidents where Black Americans were attacking Asian Americans, and i agree Nhex, that some of those attacks may not have been racist in motivation, but there is a history of fraught relations between the two groups based on complicated neighborhood relationships, obvs. i do think the post-coronavirus wave of hostility is real and has a complicated relationship with previous history.

xp

It's good that Biden explicitly condemned racism against Asian-Americans in last week's speech.

I just listened to a podcast on sex work fro the Red Nation podcast this morning, talking about how a lot of native women were forced into sex work wherever countries were colonised..
Comes from like 3 weeks ago so doesn't mention current events
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0YsoRuEpT5m9gsJrQmWMtP?si=2Ixb9QLHRy6If5C-aPSQ_g

will be available on other platforms if spotify doesn't float your boat.

It's good that Biden explicitly condemned racism against Asian-Americans in last week's speech.

― pomenitul, Wednesday, March 17, 2021 10:04 AM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

it is good, and i am glad he did it, but he also said it was un-American, which is lol

lol you're right, I forgot about that part.

i don't have a news source, but i'm seeing on Twitter that there are reports of a witness to the shootings saying that the killer made an explicit statement about intending to kill Asians fwiw.

this is what i mean. chosun ilbo has already reported that a witness, a worker at gold spa, said the gunman shouted that he would kill all the asians https://t.co/EUyd2eXoKO

— E. Alex Jung (@e_alexjung) March 17, 2021

i saw a lot of sex workers pushing back against that red nation ep. the asian-american sex-worker collective red canary song has called af3irm (which one of the guests is from) a toxic organization, after trying to engage with ezperanza's piece from last year. a thread on af3irm

They also work with organizations that actively weaponize the police against critics, this one is fucking wild and completely unconscionable: pic.twitter.com/Eja3DWphRy

— for the self abolition of the proletariat (@thecoleslaws) February 24, 2021

*esperanza

this is truly unsavory, if true:

the law enforcement spokesperson just said the shooter frequented these massage parlors and said he did this because he had a sexual addiction.

"this was a temptation he wanted to eliminate"

SEXUAL FIXATION AND RACIALLY-MOTIVATED HATE CRIME IS NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE #Atlanta

— Jenny Yang (@jennyyangtv) March 17, 2021

what the actual fuck

I maybe could have come up with a different expression of incredulity there

"he's not racist, he's a sex-obsessed terrorist who also is racist"

no, it seems appropriate. i need to stop doomscrolling on Twitter, but i can't seem to focus on anything else.

xp yeah, judging from that Twitter thread, the law enforcement offical in the press conference was trying to minimize any racist motive, but it really sounds like he does not understand what racism is.

Betcha he's diabetic.

also, sorry that i inadvertantly put the killer's face in this thread after complaining that my twitter feed was full of the killer's face.

The shooter claimed this was not racially motivated, took responsibility for this shooting, understood the gravity of what he did and said he "had a bad day."

No kidding

"Upon hearing this, Daniel Powter said, 'Do NOT drag me into your bullshit.'"

You'll never guess which broken-brained asshole couldn't stop himself from jumping in with both feet.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwsLhmmXAAMVMYq.jpg

on the one hand, it is important to report on evidence for motives in crime. on the other, it is sort of hilarious that a white dude kills a bunch of women of a particular race and anyone would respond with total skepticism that racism has anything to do with it. also, an obligatory "fuck glenn greenwald."

and reporters should apply a modicum of skepticism to a cop who says, "he's sexually addicted to Asian sex workers, so he needed to kill some, so no racism here!"

The thing is I did have “what I did wasn’t racist, it was just motivated by this thing that is primarily driven by race” on my Bingo card; it’s the free square in the center

— DJP (@djperry1973) March 17, 2021

looks like we have some of the victims' names:

The dead: Delaina Ashley Yaun, Paul Andre Michels, Xiaojie Yan, Daoyou Feng. Four remain unnamed. (from @TheCut)

— Esmé Weijun Wang • 汪蔚君 (@esmewang) March 17, 2021

Sometimes it seems like all the squares. ;___;

I shouldn't be surprised, but the way this update is being reported is extremely appalling.

yes

My partner is Chinese, the amount of racism that's been thrown his way (and my way, weirdly) during our ten years together is fucking ghastly.

ALSO:

I just listened to a podcast on sex work fro the Red Nation podcast this morning, talking about how a lot of native women were forced into sex work wherever countries were colonised..
Comes from like 3 weeks ago so doesn't mention current events
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0YsoRuEpT5m9gsJrQmWMtP?si=2Ixb9QLHRy6If5C-aPSQ_g

will be available on other platforms if spotify doesn't float your boat.

― Stevolende, Wednesday, March 17, 2021 7:09 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I know people who have quit Red Nation over this podcast. af3irm is an anti-trans organization, plain and simple, that acts with the carceral state to criminalize marginalized sex workers instead of advocating for them. fuck that.

yeah. (and my mistake, both are from the org.) turn here instead, for starters

https://indigenoussexsovereignty.tumblr.com/post/112162474275/centering-the-voices-of-people-who-trade-or-sell

https://indigenoussexsovereignty.tumblr.com/resources

I think I was doing several things at the same time this morning.
Crap, sorry shouldn't be sharing things like taht but did think the comments on how prevalent the forcing into prostitution thing was was pretty nasty.

JUst working through several episodes of that podcast after having been at a Land back webinar last week. Seems like a good podcast.Has there been debate about what they should and shouldn't be coverijng going on.

There's been some amount of drama within leftist communities of various stripes around Red Nation, but I'm not too aware of a lot of it except around this particular podcast episode.

perhaps this is just to repeat what was already said in this thread yesterday, but i want to register my frustration that the (white) journalistic consensus that seems to be emerging about this crime is that there is no racist motive, or that it is not yet clear there is a racist motive. basically because the white cop, who was later found to have posted racist anti-Chinese images on Facebook, described a racist, misogynist motive and then just CALLED it not racist, and apparently, no one who reported on it in the mainstream media exercised their own judgment about whether that motive, as described by the killer, was racist?

I just watched a coupl eo fepisodes of teh Black Lives Matter A global Reckoining series from Vice last week. The one from Denmark has the story of the killing of a half caste Danish youth by a couple of his acquaintances one fo whom had white supremacy tattoos in English all over parts of him.
There was a Danish magistrate who declared that there was no racist motive. Which has me wondering what does count as racist in the mind of so called liberals. Like it seems to be taken as given that any decent thinking person cannot be racist cos that's what other people do and there's a marginalisation and stigma about the idea of racism. Like its encapsulated and can only be done by the gauche, so whatver dodgy thoughts one has about an artificial categorisation of people well that can't be racist can it? Which until it is unlearnt will always be a stumbling block in combating racism. Owning one's prejudices so one can actually try to get to a point where one recognises what the distortion is.

it's just what does not count as racist to white people who avoid understanding racism

People writing in the mainstream media, who are overwhelmingly white, operate the same way as most white people— they will do anything to uphold white privilege and supremacy, and if that means not calling something racist that was clearly racist, then so be it.

One of the problems with such reporting is that it's seen as "not objective" to call something racist unless the racist person themselves says that there was a racist motive, or the police say there was a racist motive. There's little to no acknowledgement of the fundamental systems of racism and white supremacy that structure US society, and instead someone needs to be a sieg-heiling freakshow in order to be declared a racist by many in the media. It's pathetic.

I do not endorse or condone police brutality and, had the arresting officers beat the shit out of this dude and put him into a coma while arresting him, I would have shaken my head and said "oh, that is shameful" in an extremely insincere tone of voice

not even sieg heiling freakshows are racist, they're "racist" or "accused of racism" or some tortured euphemism.

everything about this is terrible & infuriating & so fucking transparent (i would have thought)

I just read Angela Saini, Kehinde Andres david Olusoga and a few others and wonder why everybody else can't be as woke the cretinous bitches and fucktards and all those progressive epithets i can aim at people.

what the fuck

JUst have been very disillusioned by some people who were supposed to be seting out to teach people about privilege among other things locally who don't seem to have any awareness of their own and theor own ignorance.
So been something that keeps reappearing as I read authors that are pretty enlightening.
I useed to want to seriously avoid ideologies after having been shown the limitations and hypocrisies by people I'd been exposed to and find I'm still in a paradigm. Is it human nature to be an a-hole or is it remotely possible to reclaim your wings, like.

what are you trying to do

rheorical question. fuck it

Oh I see, I mentally added an extra "as" into that first sentence and thought you were directing "cretinous bitches and fucktards" at the authors you'd just read rather than people at large

drink a lot. get pissed off at people who are not living up to things they are supposed to be trying to represent.
Avoid making mistakes about podcasts.
Reccommend a few good authors;.
Read a few more.
Realise how screwed up things are going o be until there is such a thing as a level playing field and realise also that the idea is not going to be easy to put in place while there are vested interests elsewhere.
Try to get over having been brought up in a situation where things like taht matter and how deeply it has effected me.

I'm just stuck having been taught by a person who is supposed to have been representing Augusto Boal who also seems to be stuck with teh idea of white superiority.
Ho hum

yeah, trying to be ironic like. I think those are great writers. I just bought some TA Nehisi Coates since I hadn't read him yet. Will read some Tony Morrison soon. Should have read both by now

sorry i didn't know how to read your posts. still not sure but ok

Something taht ahs been bugging me for the last couple of years was this white liberal exponent of Theatre for change who seemed not to have unlearnt her own prejudices. Which is a really weird starting point for supposedly trying to forment change.
Well one of several things. BUt does seem to epitomise the negative stereotype of the white liberal. Seemed to think that no coloure d person could think for themselves without her which is the white saviour complex written large. & doesn't seem to be utterly isolated.

Seems like no matter where you go you will find there is some level of prejudice. I guess it is something taht does need you to be aware of and see if you can live with people who are not going to be unblemished and if it is something you can workl/live with and how you overcome it or help it to change . Or if taht's not possible how yu break away from it or walk away from it. But does seem to be very pervasive.

sorry i didn't know how to read your posts. still not sure but ok

borad description

Good thread about the white/mainstream journalistic consensus here:

okay so barbaro begins The Daily saying, six of the victims were Asian women, which "has stirred fear and outrage among asian Americans, who see it as the latest burst of racist violence against them, even as the shooter himself offered a more complicated motive”

— Matteo Wong (@matteo_wong) March 18, 2021

just came here to post that. ugh. i will never, ever give any money to NYT.

does 'a more compicated motive' tend to translate as rotten excuse

from that thread, "where are all your anti racist reading lists from the summer" is soooo otm jesus christ

What makes this extra aggravating is the media's white supremacist aversion to the word racist means they were already euphemism-ing this into incoherence in the first place. So now this disgusting "debate" is over whether the killings were "racially motivated," already a muddying of the obvious.

lol at the idea that "i sexually fetishize Asian women so i must destroy them" is complicated! clichéd is what it motherfucking is.

Americans have been doing that since the Korean War, at least!

I AM SO MAD

yesterday i was sad. today i am mad.

that also indicates they think racism is "simple" which like wow

ITS LIKE THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY MEAN BY THE WORD RACISM AT ALL

i don't need you to be "good" or "care about Asian people," fancy white journalists, i just need you not to be complete fucking morons

or to stfu

they know what they're doing

sure, all of the people he killed were Asians, he boasted about killing all Asians, he didn't kill anybody that wasn't Asian, but it's not racist because he got an inappropriate erection once and worried he was going to Hell.

like the backflips they're all doing to suggest this wasn't terrorism/hate crime, like....this couldn't have been more racist if it came in a box that said RACIST

yes i guess perhaps they do, but i think that's more structural. i think individual journalists imagine they're being "fair and balanced" and "waiting for the facts," which is crazymaking.

xp

literally every crime committed has some "complication" that might make people feel differently about it if they knew more, but like, you can explain that in a way that is not SO STUPID. why is it so hard for apparently every white journalist to understand and convey to people that even the killer's explanation is hateful and racist. it's not a "BUT he says *this* was the motive"!

many xposts, i guess

yeah generally, we can trust a shooter's manifesto to tell us what their mental state was when they did something, but it's pretty much 'death of the author' when it comes to examining whether said act was racially-motivated, gender-oriented, etc.

the key word in the phrase "plausible deniability" is "plausible", but....you do you, NYT

white journalists in 1977: we should interview Berkowitz's dog before drawing any conclusions here

that doesn't really make sense but I am also enraged by this

they are defending him because they think his actions are good or nbd

yeah they're going "oh, i can see why he was so mad! wow, that sucks for him" and it shows

i think it's more like they think it's some random act of violence that they'd rather attribute to causes they understand, so they can feel smart honestly

i have had conversations with white people who thought they were smart who dismissed racism as a reality, primarily, it seemed to me, because it was something they couldn't be smart about. (plenty of white people can be smart about racism, but those ones seem okay with acknowledging it as real.)

NYT may have an institutional interest in downplaying racism; that seems slightly different

the cop for sure sympathized with him and i'm sure did not see Asian sex workers or sex workers writ large as people. there may be journalists who also identify with that, but mostly it sounds like they refused to independently judge the cop's statement.

as is painfully clear in cases of police brutality against black people, the journalistic convention is to report what cops say as fact

which is crazy because they lie constantly

(i know you are only too aware of this, harbl; i am just lecturing the journalists who would never listen to me irl)

small potatoes in the grand scheme of harm, but i truly hate how incidents like this and the predictable fucking up of reporting them turn me into such a boring scold.

lol it's ok you are correct. i am also mad and overstating it for my own satisfaction.

this mother fucker

Chip Roy pivoted from glorifying lynchings to criticizing the Chinese Communist Party during a hearing about violence against Asian Americans pic.twitter.com/uPvBZLtuYj

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) March 18, 2021

what a prince

i need to go break some plates or something

Chip Roy pivoted from glorifying lynchings to criticizing the Chinese Communist Party during a hearing about violence against Asian Americans pic.twitter.com/uPvBZLtuYj

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) March 18, 2021

sorry didnt mean to repost that

.@RepGraceMeng's (D-NY) powerful response to Rep. Chip Roy's (R-TX) comments criticizing the Chinese government during today's anti-Asian violence hearing:

"You don't have to do it by putting a bullseye on the back of Asian Americans …" pic.twitter.com/wcYUuVS8G6

— The Recount (@therecount) March 18, 2021

Valorising good or bad does tend to rely on one's perspective which does tend to be effected by one's prior experience.
So if one is starting from a perspective as warped as still being in the GOP one surely can't be 'kin serious though one probably does perceive one to be.

Shame that the great unlearning can't like come in the tap water or something handy. Would be so good if society could wake up next week revalorised to a point where there was a level playing field and people didn't have hundreds of years of legitimate complaint/injustice. But that isn't going to happen because it is legitimate.
So not sure what going to happen to make things right particularly since a significant part of the population is quite happy to maintain what privilege they have and whatever benefits deriving from that. & everybody has prejudices at least partially resulting from this unevenness. So until everybody gets the wake up pill only a portion of society is awake to the ill. Not going to say woke cos it's also a distorted mirror isn't it. Tends toward the holier than thou which doesn't help and may contain prejudices of its own.
I don't hate you for not being woke yet but surely it must reflect something inherently wrong with you and surely you must absolutely want to be more like me. Yah?
Sanctimeity is not next to godhead, like.

Or am I wrong in thinking that the term woke has fallen into a similar hole to what PC did. In that both set out to correct a perceived wrong but seem to have got caught up in the process. So PC wound up being a kneejerk policing of what one could and couldn't say instead of having the play/wiggleroom and recognition of context. & woke is a step away from what it did and should denote and now comes with added condescension and saviour complex. Or is that a projection.

'perceived' wrong should be 'recognisable' in that last comment

The THC levels of those posts are off the charts

Also Grace Meng's statement was perfect and heartbreaking :(

Neandertahl does love to project.

I am a half kenyan guy who is just becoming aware of the connotations of some things i have been at least semi aware of for most of my life and finding that it makes me really angry. Glad that there are these writers around with their work accessible. & feeling myself angered by people whose behaviour has been semi described in these books. Especially when they are supposed to be extolling similar teaching.
Wondering why everybody else can't be exposed to what I'm reading and picking up similar things from doing so and maybe adjusting their behaviour accordingly. Finding that they don'ty and my reaction to them may not be as progressive as it might be in an ideal world.
BUt also thinking that these were people who supposedly had some idea of authority over me , partially because they're not taking in what they are trying to teach because the recognition of their distortion doesn't seem to be accessible to them. Which is further infuriating.
Also finding other similar things have been true for situations going back years.

Now commenting on the process.
Finding some peanut gallery eejit has decided I must be listening to him when in fact I think he might be part of teh same pervasive problem, certainly not the solution.

I mean, Stevolende, I don't think Neanderthal is trying to be cruel, but sometimes your posts are...really, really difficult to understand. You have a unique posting style, yes, and I appreciate it, but there are certainly moments where I'm totally baffled as to your meaning. Which is fine! Not a judgment. Just an observation.

Yea it was a jest only, no harm meant. Sorry :(

THat was mainly an unwrapping of the comment I made yesterday. Which was probably too personal to convey. Like if I was jesus I'd bear no grudges on those who had impacted me but reading those authors does just remind me of several people who seemed to approach me with a rather projected understanding of how I was supposed to see them, which is unlikely to happen since I have my own experiences and perceptions of people. & I would think that was probably going to be a Universal, a person is unlikely to see a bully/maniplulative person the same way they do. Somebody pulling rank is as likely to be seen as a cheeky a-hole and more than slightly bossy than as the natural leader they view themself to be and so on and so forth.
Always has me thinking about a slaver's idea of the epistemology of the enslaved person they think they own entirely. Like everybody's got a perspective and there can be very different worlds inhabiting the same cospatial objects and physical space.

PLus am I the only person who does think the word woke does seem to contain the word pseudo in an unwritten way or have I got that understanding differently to others here?

"woke" is an essentially meaningless term at this point, but i think that you're right in that it is now used denigratingly by those on the left and the right. though there's some overlap, that denigration exists for mostly different reasons across the spectrum, obv.

it’s used as racial code by white people on the left and the right now, afaict. Stevolende, in its original usage by Black people, it wasn’t sarcastic or a veiled insult.

The phenomenon of white people taking slang/argot coined by Black people and weaponizing into something negative is long and storied and never-ending

(See for example “yaaaaas”)

This is why I only adopt slang that was obviously invented by shitty gamers, like “cuck” and “simp” (actually I don’t do that either)

Using slang isn’t de facto bad but taking slang terms that were meant to convey a positive idea and turning them into shorthand insults gets very old very quickly

history of the phrase "identity politics" is telling & v unflattering to whiter maler parts of The Left

A lot of the pushback against "woke" on the left (that I see in my IG feed, at least) is from Black people, though— it's excoriating the performative "wokeness" of white middle-class progressives as being mere platitudes. But that might just be my feed, I've seen it used in the ways the rest of you are describing, too.

Would you agree that it’s qualitatively and substantively different when people in group A use specific, self-coined language to say “you aren’t helping us” and people in group B use that same specific language to say “you aren’t helping group A”, particularly when accosting members of group A?

Inasmuch as black people are now critiquing its use, they’re critiquing the perversion of it by white people afaict

It’s not like they were mad at Erykah Badu’s use of it on New Amerykah Part One in 2008

When right wing whites use it, it’s a handy substitute for the n word that they can say on the news, which is pretty disgusting perversion of the word given its origin.

DJP, absolutely.

And when left wing whites use it, there’s an implicit contempt for thing racism seriously as bourgeois or neoliberal or whatever, which, again, is a pretty disgusting perversion

I think it’s pretty hard to salvage the original, positive sincere use of it in such an environment, at least in mixed company, which is a shame.

Yeah, I mean, I was just bringing up one of the main ways I see it used. Not defending its use by post-left edgelord fucks.

Sorry, “thing” should be “taking” in my second to last post

thieving motherfuckers take everything

This is why I only adopt slang that was obviously invented by shitty gamers, like “cuck” and “simp” (actually I don’t do that either)

― Canon in Deez (silby), Friday, March 19, 2021 2:54 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol thats not the origin of those words either (maybe thats the joke?)

Used to like thg e word Kuk which I think was car culture slang for squares or something but god Cuck what a sign of toxic masculinity.
Heard it was also a fetish of sorts.

Toxic masculinity especially toxic white masculinity kinda sucks big moose eh.
Oh so topical recently and on this thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/20/white-people-black-authors-are-not-your-medicine
interview from this weekend's Guardian review with Yaa Gyasi despairing about the limited progress in race relations even when on surface it is looking hopeful.

I was wondering how one would combat or dismantle racism and thinking that a lot of the idea of white superiority had to be dispensed with i.e.unlearnt and it would be better if it was a more universal thing than being an individual choice so how one would carry out a process like that. If it might be something that could be dispensed through other processes. It would be good if it could be dispensed through the tap water or some other agency but I can see that taht would only ever be a metaphorical thing and how one could find a ground zero without knocking other things down alongside it, though maybe they would need to go too.
But that would still leave a level of great injustice that had been carried out in the name of this so called superiority over the last few centuries which would still need to be addressed. & that too is unlikely while there are still vestiges of thought that think of things like deserving/undeserving poor and subsequent imbalances as somehow justified.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/23/us/white-headmaster-kneeling-long-island/index.html

what the hell re: this entire story

how are you going to punish a kid for doing his homework
how are you going to send a kid to the headmaster's office for doing his homework
how are you going to make a kid kneel in apology for DOING HIS HOMEWORK
why aren't they naming the headmaster, John Holian, in this story

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/marianist-school-kneel-headmaster-1.50191293

Another version of the story that names the headmaster and shows his picture

christ what an asshole

jfc

Gotta love that "this is the African way to apologize" is what he came up with to explain his actions after being called out.

Is that from some other media somewhere? H Rider Haggard or the Lion King or something?
or is it simple fruit loopery.

it's in the news story; he claims a Nigerian father made his son kneel when apologizing, ergo now all Black people must kneel when apologizing otherwise it isn't sincere to him

particularly valid when the offense is *checks notes* being ahead on your schoolwork

The headmaster, who is not being named by CNN

Yeah, that is very weird. It almost sounds like the "don't name mass shooters" thing, except that that obviously doesn't apply.

this seems like a good way to frame this going forward
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/ncna1263216

It’s been three months exactly since we watched — on live television — as supporters of former President Donald Trump climbed past barricades, shattered windows and besieged the U.S. Capitol. The president’s name echoed through the corridors of Congress as the insurrectionists unleashed their frustration at a nation they feared would soon no longer be recognizable to them, a rallying cry to defend the man who had positioned himself as their savior.

Since then, we’ve come to learn a lot about the mob that ripped through the building that day. And, vitally, a new study shows that this wasn’t just a group of people primed to believe the election had been stolen. These weren’t just people wracked with economic anxiety, as previously assumed. It wasn’t even mostly made up of members of the far-right’s front-line groups. What we witnessed was a race riot.

I mean, duh

I feel like Black people have been screaming this into the void for the past 5-6 years

TS: MSNBC vs The Void

Yeah, real statement of the obvious there.

But, amazingly, there are millions of Americans for whom the obvious is not obvious. For those people, it wold help to have some semi-authoritative voice repeating it endlessly, until they absorb it enough that it becomes obvious to them, too.

The people who need to hear this will not accept the author of this piece as a semi-authoritative voice.

I slightly disagree. Those who need to hear it are not the racists who rioted. They are unreachable. The mushy white middle who are unaccustomed to thinking in these terms and whose thinking about race is grounded on comfortable ignorance might include some who would accept the author as semi-authoritative, if only because the author was 'sponsored' by a huge corporate white-owned media entity.

The people who need to hear this are not consuming information from MSNBC

Take who you can get.

The people who need to hear this are not consuming information from anywhere.

Depending on your definition of 'information', sure.

ugh idk why this of all things sets me off. maybe it’s the chinstroky nature of the framing, as if this is a purely academic inquiry that like “merits further study” or possibly the self-important “now I, a person whose opinions are important, see things differently...”

gonna log off for a bit I think - this has pushed me over some stupid edge

pomemitul (and everyone) *of course*

I’m just seeing too much red to respond to this thoughtfully. as noted, gonna step away.

best way to approach this from a personal perspective imo would be to present the capital riots in shorthand as "seditionist race riots" whenever discussing them and see who pushes back

a good inevitable latter half "how it started/how it's going" photo
http://hyperallergic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Image2-resized.jpg

this should require a link to the "how do you wipe your ass" thread

you don't see the leaves?

actually the confederate flag gets usage in the follow-up picture

I would never desecrate my ass by rubbing it on a filthy Confederate flag

I hear you, but there are ways of making sure it only comes into contact with the expellable contents of one's ass.

Uh, what the fuck is this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/04/27/louisiana-lawmaker-argues-schools-must-teach-good-of-slavery/

His suggestion was immediately met with disgust from fellow Republican state Rep. Stephanie Hilferty, who noted, "there's no good to slavery, though."

succinct and clear! should put a swift end to this--

The bill's committee vote ended up being a 7-7 deadlock, meaning the bill will not move forward to the full House but also hasn't officially been killed.

oh

"there's no good to slavery, though."

that's just your OPINION, stephanie

jesus fuckin christ, we are in the stupidest timeline.

shoulda known he was a fellow Italian, a lot of us are really racist.

you guys can't cancel slavery! you signed up for the 12-month plan!

I would like for life to stop being a Colin Quinn monologue

So, we were voted the anti-Asian hate crime capital of North America:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2021-vancouver-canada-asian-hate-crimes/

Damn. Had no idea.

not surprised, definitely appalled

that articles explains the history and scapegoating really well

"positive"

Another positive cause of fertility decline has been the assimilation of Hispanic Americans to U.S. fertility norms.

In 2007, Hispanic American women had about 67% more kids than their White counterparts; by 2018, the difference had shrunk to under 20% https://t.co/w5AUpMdzV1 pic.twitter.com/5s8vigEzke

— Bloomberg Opinion (@bopinion) May 7, 2021

Taken down already?

Not to take any heat off Bloomberg media or whatever, but it is my understanding that when women gain control of their fertility & reproductive agency, they overwhelmingly choose to have fewer children than was the prior norm? I thought that was widely considered a good thing for women. But that's not the same as being in charge of Bloomberg's twitter account, obviously.

“Assimilation to US fertility norms” is a preposterous way to put it

not reading the article but the tweet is clearly not about reproductive freedom

bestie’s gonna be okay, right? 💔 pic.twitter.com/fhT7DrQrIz

— Saturday Night Live - SNL (@nbcsnl) May 9, 2021

I'm tired of this shit

Yikes

Also regarding that Bloomberg news tweet, discussions of falling birth rates in the US and Europe always feel like crypto-white nationalism, even before it gets as blatant as that tweet.

why did I make the mistake of reading the comments on that tweet? a lot of good takes screamed over by a lotta "NUH UH" tweets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf1c0tEGfrU
Would hope black hair would be something people could get some kind of a clue about by nowl. But this is a subject I've seen a few webinars on over the last year. What is supposed to be acceptable in allowing somebody to look both 'professional' and attractive or whatever while at the same time I'm seeing white women with hair coloured blue or fucshia or whatever in work spaces.
Also finding places easily that can cut it properly since it seems that its outside the remit of a lot of salons.
PLus white media personaliies, pop musicians etc adopting black hairstyles seems to have a habit of undermining the legitimacy of the hairstyle for black people who do need to wear their hair in some manner that looks both fashionable and controllable.
Anyway this seemed to be a good summary of the subject.

the fuck is going on in that snl skit?

Black, primarily LBGQT, slang and AAVE being relabeled as “Gen Z-speak” and then mocked

Is it like an idea that was being thrown around during a writing session or something that somebody was messing around with and suggested be brought to one.
Does look like somebody was looking around at the comic possibilities of something that possibly shouldn't have gone any further than that.
Hope its not going to be something that reappears with any frequency.
Looks like it's a signifier that people are getting older if they are looking at the youth of today are all like this like tropes.

or overly safe in their cis whiteness or token acceptance within if the caricatures come from elsewhere.

Does it change the meaning at all if those involved include people who aren't actually white or straight?

Michael Che is taking credit for the sketch and is apparently claiming to not have heard of AAVE prior to this.

He is also the type of guy to post things on instagram and then delete them, so here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1C6hXwX0AMohLO?format=jpg&name=medium

I don't follow SNL very closely, so I don't know Che's deal.

"I don't know the right way to deal with this but it's not great that there is a whole industry now catering to "anti racist allies" which seems to have a primarily therapeutic purposes for the "anti racist" on a personal level- like this is how acknowledging your privilege will make you a better person and relieve you of your burdens etc. despite all the theatrics it's a hell of a lot easier to acknowledge one's privilege than to actually try to dismantle it and there's way too much of the former that doesn't even seem to acknowledge that the latter is also necessary"

this is true. im on a fbk group called race talk and a lot of (white) peoples posts use therapeutic language and are very into (often quite lengthy) self reflection, rather than simply contending with the actual issues, maybe as they dont quite know how, not sure. i guess they mean well, but it just reads a bit weirdly.

but it just reads a bit weirdly

We know the feeling.

I was at a webinar on white privilege done by some white supposedly anti racists a few weeks ago. They were talking about confronting racism i the workplace. I asked if there wasa stigma about talking about race in the workplace generally thinking taht it might be gaining weight from that when if it could actually be talked about it might no longer be so much of a folk devil(or is it moral panic?) . They couldn't work out what a stigma would have been tried to marginalise this to a place where i would just be discussing it with teh one black person on their panel.
Is that not the problem summarised in itself.
Like I thought the idea of a stigma about something being discussed would be something recognised.Is that me assuming too much.

JUst does very much strike me that having a stigma about subjects taht are going to need to be addressed in some way because they're not simply going to go away is going to be a problem in itself. Like people are not going to cease to be of different ethnic backgrounds than teh supposed norm and therefore it is not going to be something that can be swept under the rug. & Talking about something like that is more likely to be a point where you can address obvious misunderstandings. Like we're not less intelligent tahn the most arrogant idiots we're going to meet and no we don't want self appointed people to be our representatives because that should very much be more than a stigma, like a total no-no. Room 101 do not do level. & yet seems to be something that I've run into several times and has pissed me off every time i have done. Seems to be so unbelievably smug taht somebody would step in to try to behave like that.

My biggest problem with the "therapeutic antiracism" stuff is how little impact it seems to have vs how much energy is expended on it. I think there are real phenomena identified and analyzed by people like Robyn DiAngelo and Ibram Kendi, and it's probably good to reflect on ideas like privilege and fragility on occasion, but (1) you're never going to get to the bottom of those problems by gazing inward and (2) the phenomenon seems to divorce racism from its economic and class context. And I don't want to overgeneralize about this, because in the real world there is of course overlap between people who focus on personal/cultural racism and people who focus on structural/economic racism. But all the trainings in the world on how to be more sensitive to your black coworkers (in many cases, I think, hypersensitive to the point of interfering with normal human relationships) aren't going to address the fact that you don't have as many black coworkers as you'd expect based on the population of your city (and diversity hiring committees alone aren't going to be enough to address that either).

It reminds me a little bit of trying to solve global warming through consumerism - it's not that installing solar panels and eating less meat are bad ideas, they're great ideas! It's just that this alone will never do more than scratch the surface, because entire structures need to be changed, and some people drive themselves crazy obsessing over their personal carbon footprint while getting very little "bang for their buck" in terms of effort expended vs result.

Sorry Kendi not really the right person to reference there now that I think about it, moreso DiAngelo

yeah, kendi's antiracist book was required reading for my company last year and i thought it was refreshing that it's more about changing policy than staring inward to root out the racist within

man alive OTM. for me, its the apparent prizing of personal introspection that bothers me, as it just ends up being all about the persons personal feelings, skirting around the actual topic of race, and ends up being all about that person, and their struggles to be anti/non racist. maybe there are circles where this kind of thing really works, group therapy specifically about racism, but unless people are really coming clean about their racist thoughts, thereby allowing you to really address them, and not drowning it in introspection around those thoughts, i just cant see the effectivenesss of it. maybe getting to the bottom of a persons personal resistance to discussion of race/acceptance of racism really can help in a broader sense, but i think people will always be racist, its just ingrained in humanity, so im doubtful that approach is really going to tackle all that much.

people weren't always racist so it's not just human nature or anything. but the racist colonial institutions learning to speak antiracism are clearly just trying to prolong their own survival (therefore of racism, colonialism etc)

oh for sure

If a person had a white saviour complex how would they see it?
JUst wondering, like its probably not a single idea but surely there would be some recognition of a perspective taht would be seen from outside as being 'classic white saviour complex'.

Like the idea that somebody would take a supposedly radical theatre group based on theory that was upposed to be addressing this idea of heirarchy and then come out as though their perspective was the only one necessary to the exclusion of people supposedly involved. Leaving the coloured people in the group in a really tokenist position and being treated like they were children who didn't have her insight. When she appeared to be totally tone deaf on the subject of race. As she showed several times.
God, what an annoying person. I think she thought she was like woke and needed to help people along with her great understanding. I now think she is a complete idiot and should be removed from any position of authority. Gah, what can you do.

I think "people were always racist"/"people weren't always racist" is probably a difficult thing to parse out, sort of like ideas about homosexuality in history. Like I think racism in some sense probably always existed, but the particular ways in which it's constructed and the role it plays have changed over time. In other words, I think people have probably always been aware of difference, including difference in features, skin tone, etc., and I think that those superficial differences have probably been linked to class or status at various times throughout history in ways that were sometimes negative or discriminatory, but I don't think the particular form of anti-black racism we have in America is ahistorical or inevitable.

But, at the same time, it can't be excised on an individual level alone so long as it exists at the structural level.

"people weren't always racist so it's not just human nature or anything"

not sure how you can say racism hasnt always been there. white racism might be most pernicious and dominant because of how european countries sought to dominate the world in recent centuries, but prejudice, and discrimination based on genetic differences (if not skin colour, then something else) is as old as humanity. basically, what man alive said.

there were sorts of proto racism in antiquity & medieval times but what we call racism now is the european colonial project & associated ideology

calling e.g. ancient prejudices against "barbarians" racist is ahistorical. ancient imperialism wasn't anti-black or based on pseudo-natural hierarchies of skin colour

p sure second class citizen ethnic minorities existed outside of and predating colonialism though

Charles Mann suggested that there was a population rise in Africa after maize was introduced in the wake of Columbus trips to teh New World. So there was now a population in Africa taht could be seen presumably as surplus which seems disingenuous because tehy must have been somebody's children and relatives. & it was these people taht fed into the slave trade.
BUt it does seem like the idea of black asinferior and white as superior dates back to the slave trade. I thought the heirarchy was not along those lines until then.
I think he also says that at the time of first contact with the mesoamericans the idea of Europe being advanced beyond teh Americas, Africa and Asia was pretty absurd. But as a result of that contact and heavy exploitation resulting from it they managed to gain dominance reformatting the areas they were in contact with along the way.
Either he said it or somebody else I've listened to recently did.
& subsequent thought could be put down to victor's historiagraphy. Like if the victor writes the history and then bases his philosophy on things a posteriori as though this was the way that their deity had arranged things from the start.
They even changed teh colour of the avatar of that deity along the way.
I do need to know a lot more about the Coptic and other Eastern and African Christian churches that predate European Christianity.
Paul Crookes the west Indian family history researcher has said that he has looked at ships logs from the middle passage that show the names of the shipped and indicate Christian and Judaic belief among them .

im fine with Racism being specific to white racism as we see played out in western societies, but idk, it doesnt take too deep a look into countries in asia, africa or europe to find examples of prejudice being used to justify heinous treatments of other groups within those societies, both historically and in the present. and im not saying that to excuse white racism, just to point out that this idea of racism as being the invention of white europeans does something of a disservice to people in many parts of the world. if you are anti racist, then surely you have to be against both white racism, and all the structures and beliefs it has led to, as well as other forms elsewhere. its also a bit slippery IMO, as you can then risk getting into dangerous assumptions around cultural relevatism etc.

I think that the caveat you include - if not skin colour, then something else - suggests that what we're discussing here would be more usefully framed as bigotry (or tribalism, if ya wanna be fancy) than racism. Don't think that's potato pohtato either, if someone's trying to unlearn the specific racism that they grew up in (whether that's a purposeful or acheivable goal or not) I think that's quite different from unlearning bigotry period.

Not that we shouldn't unlearn bigotry too of course! But becoming aware of current structures and historical contexts is different from struggling against some timeless evil.

fair point. though how they play out has many overlaps, whether youre talking caste-ism, tribalism, etc. and if im thinking of casteism, or discrimination based around religion, then its not just some railing against some broad, nebulous timeless evil, its quite specific, with its own histories, patterns, structures etc

If you haven't read Caste by Isabel Wilkerson yet, it explores a lot of these ideas. Tough read (due to the descriptions of the horrors experienced by lower castes), but eye-opening.

Did i hear that a lot of the caste system was imposed by European influence?
Think I came across that. Like it taking on a much deeper weight afterward.

not read Caste, but i read a review, and it seemed like it was much more interested in applying the idea of caste to US society than casteism as practised elsewhere, so IDK if I need more about racism in the US in my life.

xpost casteism was not imposed by european influence but it was affected by it, at times manipulated by it, and other times used as an opportunity to exacerbate pre existing divisions.

FWIW, I recently heard some commentator (can't remember where) define Racism as a product of the scientific age, and dated it to the 19th Century. It used the flimsy veneer of science (or rather pseudoscience) to categorize different groups, with white anglo-saxons perched atop everyone else. Of course prejudice and bigotry have been around forever, but racism and racialism are decidedly modern ideas (according to this author and I can't recall her name).

Was it one or both of the Fields sisters (authors of Racecraft)?

I honestly don't recall.. I think I was making dinner with the radio on

yeah, racial science is def a big component.

did you guys comment on this?

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/19/uk/un-uk-race-report-intl-gbr/index.html

the development & formulation of scientific antisemitism, from but distinct from anti-judaism in the revolutionary/colonial era, is instructive here I think

UK pol thread talked about the report I think, which was clearly intended as a deliberate fuck you

the UN criticism being on an empirical basis seems to miss that part of it

I thought Angela Saini's book Superior was very good at debunking Race Science while covering its history and looking at its reappearance in recent years. Also left me even more disgusted at the theatre group I talked about above since she showed why the project we were working on was looking at things in a very wrong way. Quite apart from the tokenism and supporting what I had been thinking at the time.

Oh & that was before Black lives Matter became a worldwide movement with great momentum.
& I would think most things would need to be reassessed in teh light of that.
So hope more things are before somebody manages to whitewash everything again.
Would be so good if that farcical UK report acted as a catalyst more than anything else. I know a lot of people are seriously angry about that and should be

It may well be Saini that I heard on the radio.. I just looked at a Guardian review of that book

One thing I tend to hammer on in periodic Facebook posts — a very effective way of influencing people, obv — is the specific economic underpinnings of American racism. (True in many other varieties of racism too, of course.) Slavery was an economic system, as was sharecropping, as was convict-leasing, as is the low-wage work performed by undocumented immigrants, all of them made palatable by the encouragement of a belief that the people performing the enslaved/low-wage work are inferior in one way or another.

American discussions of racism have for so long focused on individual thoughts and attitudes, without engaging with the forces that fostered them.

I am intrigued by how a person who can be seen to have a white saviour complex does see themselves. Is the answer in the question in as much as they're seeing their inept misapplication of misunderstood thought to be purely benevolent and more conscious than the people they're treading on.
Assuming that it is a basic misunderstanding of things and that anything more intentional would go by another name. BUt it may be more harmful in its ineptness. I dunno.
Like struck by the idea that a perfect parasite doesn't kill its host too.

discussed on the desus/mero thread but here's ziwe on showtime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP8xKsIpxAI

ok, lol @ all persistence matters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY6_QrOdwfo

swinging back to that depressing SNL video upthread

Bless this guy and his new series: “How everything on [TikTok] originated from Black culture” pic.twitter.com/nNOWfEJaLc

— black boy bulletin (he/him) (@blkboybulletin) May 12, 2021

The NFL says it will halt the use of “race-norming” — which assumed Black players started out with lower cognitive functioning — in a $1 billion settlement of brain injury claims. The practice had made it harder for Black players to qualify.https://t.co/OQpzSD88xM

— The Associated Press (@AP) June 2, 2021

uh

I have profoundly low expectations for the NFL, but this is still shocking

"The standards were created in the 1990s in hopes of offering more appropriate treatment to dementia "

"more appropriate"

wtaf?

ALAB pod (iirc) did a good episode on this topic

had to read that tweet several times to make sure i understood what i was seeing

That is unreal

I thought Angela Saini's book Superior was pretty good on the history of race science and what was inherently wrong with it. Assume it's not the only one that's good and would like to know others was pretty succinct and understandable though.
But sounds like just another element of misrepresentation of ethnicity in medicine and I think especially US medicine. Up with black people don't feel pain for useful knowledge for medical practitioners or more likely not. Wonder who did the research leading to this conclusion and if they had any other agenda at all.

I, too, did not realize the NFL’s racism could still shock me. Heads need to roll.

I haven't watched a single NFL game in many years now. Given the possibility of the Bears having a decent QB again, I was considering watching a game or two this fall, but nope, fuck this organization forever.

Stevolende: it's been a long time since I looked at it, but Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man might be of interest. It's from 1981, so I'm not sure how it's aged, but I just read this article five minutes ago, so apparently it's at least somewhat evergreen: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pupil-size-is-a-marker-of-intelligence/.

thanks

so this sentence:

The standards were created in the 1990s in hopes of offering more appropriate treatment to dementia patients

implies that race-norming is common practice in testing for dementia treatment?

it's common in a lot of medical procedures, I am learning today

also Simon mentioned this, haven't listened myself: https://www.alabseries.com/episodes/episode-21-baked-in

This has been talked about for years, certainly well before this article: https://www.statnews.com/2016/04/04/medical-students-beliefs-race-pain/

Also this, from 2013: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=201128359

And this is from 2006: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/racial-ethnic-variables-shape-experience-chronic-pain

pittsburgh

A black defense attorney spoke publicly about racism in the criminal justice system. As punishment, the local prosecutor refuses to offer any of his clients plea deals. https://t.co/1BQabCZgSx

— josie duffy rice (@jduffyrice) June 3, 2021

Yes, I'd previously encountered the pain issue as well as some specific problems in dermatology, where medical pedagogy is often exclusively based on light skin (e.g., "look for signs of redness" when darker skin presents symptoms quite differently).

An example I saw after the nfl story: https://www.statnews.com/2021/06/03/vbac-calculator-birth-cesarean/

Plus these tweets allude to systemic problems:

“Race-norming” is built into medicine: calculators for renal function, pulmonary function, fever work ups in infants, vaginal birth after c-section. https://t.co/FCQM3L9nbQ

— Esther Choo MD MPH (@choo_ek) June 3, 2021

This (like the NFL's decision to stop "race norming" for brain injury) is a good start. But these racist tech and procedures are endemic in medicine (consider the pulse oximeter, eGFR tests, spirometer, just to start).

We need wholesale scrutiny and transformation. https://t.co/msWIrWuhaN

— Shobita Parthasarathy 👩🏾‍🏫🧪📚🎙️ (@ShobitaP) June 3, 2021

This looks helpful/technical/depressing: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2004740

This quote seems, um, noteworthy:

The American Heart Association (AHA) Get with the Guidelines–Heart Failure Risk Score predicts the risk of death in patients admitted to the hospital.9 It assigns three additional points to any patient identified as “nonblack,” thereby categorizing all black patients as being at lower risk. The AHA does not provide a rationale for this adjustment. Clinicians are advised to use this risk score to guide decisions about referral to cardiology and allocation of health care resources.

btw did you all catch this

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/us/memorial-day-black-history-cut-off/index.html

I don’t know that this has been 100% confirmed but this is allegedly the auxiliary president of that chapter of the American Legion with her son:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ohio/comments/ns11vm/this_is_apparently_the_son_of_cindy_suchan/

This interview with Anthony Braxton is kinda breaking my brain. I'm not gonna pull out any quotes; just read the whole thing, if you're interested.

This interview with Anthony Braxton🕸 is kinda breaking my brain. I'm not gonna pull out any quotes; just read the whole thing, if you're interested.

i am interested. i don’t think he was ever as overtly politically radical as many of his contemporaries. but some of these (overly familiar) talking points I hadn’t heard from him before and are frankly pretty disappointing. though not at all unprecedented coming from the academy. of course he doesn’t owe me anything

it is hard for me to reconcile this boilerplate anti-anti-white stuff with his previous criticisms of white institutions for their suppression of black/african culture. and his rosy view of american past and (?)present with his ghost dance influenced music.

most bothersome isn’t that he’s not “woke” enough by current standards but that his views here are just so utterly mundane by anyone’s standards. let alone his own

Not sure where to post this exactly but...

I’m at a Loudoun County school board meeting. Packed room. A debate over critical race theory in schools has divided this community in recent weeks. Tonight, for the first time in the pandemic, the public was allowed back in to these meetings. pic.twitter.com/w7zslWN0FM

— amna (@IAmAmnaNawaz) June 8, 2021

This exact thing happened at our local school board meeting last night. The dipshits who have been yelling for a year to "open our schools" and "masks are child abuse" have gone full-on anti-CRT. I'm guessing this stuff will be getting covered as the new Tea Party.

do racists have rights too? LIke can't be critical of them can you?
Have the right to their own personal martyrdom as long as somebody else can help them with it. Is that true, no canonisation without martyrdom.?
Bloomin bloom.

Like did strike me taht critical racist theory was a little apt since it would be openly critical of racists since that would be a central tenet of the information provided. The ideas that lead to racism recognised as being misinterpretations and misinformation. Which the teaching would be hoping to address and hopefully dispense with. Valorisation - superiority/inferiority being so utterly subjective that it would be better to dispense with them rather than bolster by institutional reinforcement

there is a massive media campaign going on right now against CRT. which apparently includes BLM, intersectionality, all non-triumphalist colonial history, imaginary attacks on shakespeare, the existence of non-white people in academia, the acknowledgement that racism exists... it's basically cutural marxism but with less nazi baggage and more overtly anti-black

One problem is that people don't know what "critical" means when applied to topics of interest as opposed to people

Also white people are still scared that the non-white people are going to literally murder them given half a chance

well now as is so deeply historically shown the population can only listen to reason. So if presented with facts like all of what is apparently being attacked so wholesale they must eventually come around to seeing sense.
Stands to reason.
Or like totally against it.
Would hope most of this was self evident but its also deeply uncomfortable and counterinituitive for some.
& certainly been heavily inculcated over the years.
Do wish one could osmose what people like Saini, Kendi , Andrews, Appiah etc wrote but like you can bring a racist to knowledge but you can't make them think innit

For a lot of these fools, it seems that being called racist is worse than actually acknowledging racism.

Which means, of course, that they're racists.

there's also something to the visibility of being called a racist now vs pre-social media. Being outed to hundreds of your friends (or fans, if you're a public figure) in a manner of second as a racist.....basically it's more than being confronted with bad behavior, it's the feeling of being ostracized, to having people no longer willing to meet you for a beer, people who won't say "hello" to you in public anymore, people who send you angry messages.

In the past, for non-public figures, word of mouth would take a lot longer to get around, and there wasn't the ability to instantly record or screenshot anything, so the accused could sidestep it with minimal effort, either by getting 'in front' of it by acknowledging a generic wrongdoing and promising to do better, or biting the bullet and denying it, knowing nobody would be able to prove it, while still giving lip service to the idea that racism is wrong. Nowadays, you can't really get "in front" of much, and it's a bit hard to defend against screenshots and videos without screaming DEEPFAKE or SHOPPED, which doesn't have quite the same ring.

Even being called out in today's environment, still, a normal, non-psychotic person would just look at this as an opportunity to change and publicly acknowledge their wrongdoing, whereas these psychos actually view the call-out as a transgression and seek to destroy the person who leaked it in the same aggressive fashion. basically "back against the wall", ta lot of people show their asses and hit back (or hit again, since they were the ones who transgressed in the first place).

granted, not every accusation of 'racism' actually involves outing someone as a racist on social media or even has that wide of a reach, but just the threat of the possibility lingers in these assholes' minds and ergo calling them a racist even in a private setting is a heinous crime and not a mere acknowledgment of the fact that they are a fucking racist. so they fly off the FUCKING handle.

I have to say that Ellie Kemper handled her firestorm much better than I expected her to

seriously, fuck this country

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/10/us/school-policies-black-and-latino-graduates/index.html

it's a fucking graduation, let people be happy

although of course what would actually happen is that they'd start letting white kids yell "I DID IT FOR THE MASTER RACE" because that's the same as waving/wearing a Mexican flag

that is utter bullshit

the policy against the Mexican flag carrying is bullshit, but i literally don't understand how the kid wearing black patent leather shoes was in violation of any rules? schools are punishing Black kids for having style, essentially?

lotta dress-code enforcing assholes in the comments, for a buncha people who wear confed flags on EVERYTHING

This morning Latta Plantation removed this Juneteenth event from their online calendar and Facebook page after FB commenters let them know just how awful of an idea it was. pic.twitter.com/8pj8OyuyCr

— Ryan Pitkin (@pitkin_ryan) June 11, 2021

The audacity

lotta dress-code enforcing assholes in the comments, for a buncha people who wear confed flags on EVERYTHING

lol, replace the confed flag with old glory and you have my uncle. has an endless array of beat up sleeveless t-shirts with the flag on 'em that he wears to every single event i've ever seen him at, but oh boy does he have OPINIONS on how kids should dress

wow that description of "Kingdom Coming" is much worse than I predicted

This was their Juneteenth programming, I’d like to reiterate

The graduation thing is so fucking stupid because it might not even be racism, instead just some power-tripping grown-up who can't stand it when the rules are bent and won't let kids let a little loose during the last HOUR they will ever see each other .

Like the logic of "this flag causes a disruption" is absolutely idiotic considering that denying the kid a diploma, interrupting an entire ceremony, letting it delve into confusion and then ultimately becoming a national incident that disgraces both you and your school is more of a "disruption" on an exponential scale.

I'm going to pass on this: https://www.cameo.com/racheldolezal

what if she's on Cameo singing Cameo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeZd3nSJxIo

https://www.loudersound.com/news/foo-fighters-accused-of-bringing-segregation-back-as-anti-vax-protestors-picket-show

"Segregation" - boy these privileged hateful fucks never wait more than five seconds to compare their minor grievance to slavery or Jim Crow, do they?

This is good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YxH43Cw6tI

John McWhorter has been talking about ebonics his Lexicon Valley podcast as well as various forms of pidgin.
Have been enjoying that show and caught a zoom interview with him last week where he had to field questions about hi being conservative and things.
But did hear from his show that ebonics seemed to be getting more respect and recognition than when i was hearing it dismissed by a white American Erasmus student in my university days in the early 00ies

xp I love that! Thanks, Dan! It's fun when linguistics blows people's minds.

You're Wrong About has an episode about the "ebonics controversy" and what that Oakland school district was actually doing (hint: not what they got criticized for doing) and iirc it was WORKING (until it got cancelled).

I think code-switching is an extremely valuable skill to have and also something virtually everybody does. Thanks to racism, it’s marginalized when non-white people do it.

something virtually everybody does

Seriously. The idea that it's something only black people do is absurd. Anyone who's ever consciously stopped themselves from saying "fuck" in front of their boss, raise your hand.

Totally. Everyone does it! And also, AVE is a language with internal rules and consistency and it follows forms that other languages also have! That's really exciting info, right in the teeth of ppl who say it's bad or wrong SAE.

I read a fascinating essay on the grammatical and syntactical structures, covering some of the same ground as that video and more besides, not long ago; can't remember where, or I'd post a link.

codeswitching is something i've always linked to intersectionality in something that everybody does. & for interrelated reasons.
Nobody is monolithic, let alone artifical groups of people. YOu have people you have to be more formal with and people you can be far less formal with to look at this in its simplest form.
You also have people you have shared more past experience with so you can feel likeyou can let your hair down and mask slip with. Or don't need to try to conform to a supposedly given norm with. & others you feel far more vulnerable with and therefore want to be much more guarded around.
I thought that was human nature.
There just seems to be more pressure on black people and other minorities to be more guarded. I think there's less understood forgiveness or something. Wonder if there will be a point when that is not going to apply. Would make society a better place if there was l;ess of taht tension. & less hoops to jump through.

OTMing the last DJP/unperson/in orbit. Plus, a lot of the people who bitch about AAE use lots of it on a regular basis, whether they're conscious of it or not.

I teach classes at work and I do not care how people speak in my class if it makes them comfortable - it makes for a more comfortable training environment. I tend to use very relaxed speech too.

I always find it ironic that the people who bitch the most about AAE and/or "broken" English (hate that term) are usually poor speakers themselves.

Here's a friend of mine who has made a career out of studying the linguistics of AAVE with a 30-minute video she recorded for DuoLingo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xzlGHqv7w

omg opening tab for later!

I read a review of a book looking into the way languages are spoken within a family if more than one language is spoken i the home. Which was talking about different family members speaking different languages with different other family members. Like the relationship between family members including which language they felt comfortable speaking to each other. Father to daughter being different to mother to son and possibly different again with the interaction between the different configurations of that grouping.
Would like to know more about that. Presumably differs with each family and will have some historic reasoning behind it within the family.

I can remember hearing my dad talk 3 different languages within the space of a sentence. So wish i had that fluency. He had a tribal language, a lingua franca for the country or presumably group of countries and teh colonial language he grew up being taught. I think Luo the tribal language must sound different enough to Swahili which is very arabic influenced. & the other language was English. THink he may have had fluent French on top of that, wouldn't be surprised if that didn't stretch to at least a smattering of Spanish too.

that pbs video was good indeed, thanks

Nobody talking about the discovery of Indigenous children's remains in residential schools in Canada? Hope this does remain a conscious thing for people. I was mainly aware of Canadians as having a stereotype of being squeaky clean nice progressives until last year.
Then was hearing a lot about racism there from people on webinars who were based there both indigenous and black populations had long standing history of it.
That the |Green book needed to include entries on parts of Canada and there had been a lot of violence against indigenous. as well as attempts to have indigenous children fostered out to white families so they lost contact with their traditions etc which was an intentional policy in the 1960s

Residential schools in AK were the same; most rural villages are still suffering badly from the legacy of trauma and abuse and having whole generations deliberately cut off from their native language and cultural traditions.

Stevolende, there's some talk on the Canadian politics thread.

Genocide was enshrined into the very purpose of the Residential Schools of Canada pic.twitter.com/H9qdEzErUq

— The Serfs (@theserfstv) June 24, 2021

To make the connection even clearer, the line famously used by the founder of one of the first residential schools was "Kill the Indian and save the man."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/entertainment/blackfishing-explainer-trnd/index.html

I'm mostly posting this because of how hard the picture of Iggy Thee Stallion made me laugh

yikes

Is this a New Jersey

I keep thinking about how Usher gave us Justin Bieber and T.I. gave us Iggy Azalea and it makes me shake my fist southward and shout "ATLANTA YOU WRONG FOR THIS"

Who Could Have Predicted: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/07/11/nation/tennessee-teacher-taught-ta-nehisi-coates-essay-poem-about-white-privilege-he-was-fired-it/

Besides “everyone”, I assume?

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/who-actually-gets-to-create-black-pop-culture

that piece is staggering imo

map do you like this is revolution podcast

i will check it out!

i think it is the episode from a couple days ago that talks about the cosby show, look on youtube. was listening to it this weekend and didn't finish because their episodes are lonnggggg but i think you would like it.

super interesting, thanks for that map

(I am bad at podcast listening but will have a look at that one)

There's a ton of Black pop culture made by people from poor backgrounds. Entire bookstore sections' worth of romance and crime novels written by and for poor Black people. But Bertrand Cooper doesn't read them, nor do the white people he's lecturing in his piece. So that just gets completely overlooked.

The piece might benefit from more clearly establishing that he's talking about the kinds of esteemed cultural products (HBO series, elite magazine gigs, Oscar winners, etc.) that cross over to widespread success and are therefore taken as a sign of a culture industry successfully "diversifying." I'm not convinced ignoring historically disregarded/disparaged art like romance novels means he's overlooking something crucial here

Then the piece is just another part of the circle-jerking elite cultural ecosystem it purports to criticize. He’s basically a Black J.D. Vance, the way he talks about his upbringing in a way perfectly calibrated to thrill and terrify the Helen Lovejoys in the audience.

cool

Entire bookstore sections' worth of romance and crime novels written by and for poor Black people.

wrt crime novels there's a history of these authors dying poor and getting screwed by their white-owned publishers as well

also correct me if i'm wrong but black crime fiction, afaik, only truly shaped pop culture as we know it through its repeated reference in rap music (which, black music is deliberately excluded from this essay for probably obvious reasons)

Thought this might be interesting but gave up on it after a while cos I just found it annoying

Jul

26
'More Than One Way to Burn a Book'
by Free Speech Champions
107 followers
Free
Actions and Detail Panel

Event Information
A live, online, interactive event with Lionel Shriver, Tomiwa Owolade and Inaya Folarin Iman on contemporary censoriousness in literature.
About this event

‘More than one way to burn a book’: literary censorship in the 21st century

Online Drop-In Event: Monday 26th July 7-8.30pm (BST)

Speakers: Lionel Shriver and Tomiwa Owolade

Host: Inaya Folarin Iman

News this month that a school in Edinburgh is to cease teaching Harper Lee’s To Kill a Mockingbird, on the grounds of its ‘white saviour narrative’, should make us ask, was Ray Bradbury right when he said, five decades ago, that “there is more than one way to burn a book, and the world is full of people running about with lit matches”?

While we may have moved on from the prudish attitudes towards sexuality and profanity which saw works like Lady Chatterley's Lover banned, it is worth pondering whether the old matches have been fully extinguished. Perhaps more overt, state censorship carried out by authoritarian regimes, such as Turkey, Hungary and Thailand, blinds us to the subtler ways in which censoriousness operates in publishing in the Anglosphere. This can manifest itself through accusations of cultural appropriation and stereotyping in the creation of characters on the page, or demands for ‘cancellation’ due to personal misdemeanours in the author’s own life.

We are delighted to be joined by two eminent speakers, the novelist and columnist Lionel Shriver and the writer and critic Tomiwa Owolade, to explore the differing threats from de jure, or legally imposed, censorship, and de facto censorship, perpetrated by individuals and private companies. We will consider whether our current cultural clashes shackle or stimulate the literary imagination and ask, is one person’s ‘censorship’ another person’s ‘sensitivity’?

Lionel Shriver: A prolific journalist with a fortnightly column in The Spectator, Lionel Shriver has written widely for the New York Times, the Guardian, the London Times, Prospect, the Financial Times, Harper’s Magazine, and many other publications. She has published the bestselling works of fiction The Mandibles: A Family, 2029-2047, Big Brother, So Much for That, The Post-Birthday World, and the Orange-Prize winner We Need to Talk About Kevin (a 2011 feature film starring Tilda Swinton). Her most recent novel is Should We Stay or Should We Go (2021). Her work has been translated into over 30 languages.

Tomiwa Owolade: Tomiwa is a writer and critic who lives in London. His work has appeared in the Times, Spectator, Evening Standard, Unherd, Quillette and Literary Review, among other publications. He holds degrees in English Literature from Queen Mary, University of London and University College London, and has written extensively on books, politics and racial identity.

99% of authors in the history of publishing have gotten screwed by their publishers and/or died poor.

also correct me if i'm wrong but black crime fiction, afaik, only truly shaped pop culture as we know it through its repeated reference in rap music (which, black music is deliberately excluded from this essay for probably obvious reasons)

Well, who the "we" in the phrase "pop culture as we know it" is, is kind of the whole fucking point (and exactly what this writer is getting wrong). This is about who's reading what, and why. No, EL Griffin's Hood Love and Loyalty is never gonna be nominated for a National Book Award, but it's not because the author didn't go to the right college.

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99% of authors in the history of publishing have gotten screwed by their publishers and/or died poor.

oh man, didn't realize publishing was operating at such a loss

Thought this might be interesting but gave up on it after a while cos I just found it annoying

Interesting as what? As an example of hideous anti-woke right wing garbage?

oh man, didn't realize publishing was operating at such a loss

One Stephen King pays for a thousand writers whose books sink to the bottom of the ocean unread. Wait till you find out how many actual copies you need to sell to have a New York Times bestseller. (Triple digits will do it.)

sometimes i feel like On Here i've read a completely different article or post. or i read too fast, but i thought he was acknowledging the existence of content produced by people from poor backgrounds and pointing out how they don't get boosted because they are presumed to be unpalatable to white people, regardless of how popular they actually are, and the big media companies can still say they are doing diversity without offending anyone important.

actually delete the first sentence, i shouldn't apologize for how i read it

off topic but

John Oliver has a net worth of 30 million dollars. He could heal many wounds just with his own wealth, yet he chooses not to. It’s almost like he’s full of shit. https://t.co/QiRbLZedST

— Matt Walsh (@MattWalshBlog) July 26, 2021

this guy has truly figured it out

Charles Murray, everybody!

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excellent contributions itt keep it up

sometimes i feel like On Here i've read a completely different article or post. or i read too fast, but i thought he was acknowledging the existence of content produced by people from poor backgrounds and pointing out how they don't get boosted because they are presumed to be unpalatable to white people, regardless of how popular they actually are, and the big media companies can still say they are doing diversity without offending anyone important.

― criminally negligible (harbl), Monday, July 26, 2021 8:02 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

also, someone with basic reading comprehension skills would be able to tell that he is detailing his experience being the black-poorest with a double intent. yes it establishes his credentials, which is probably important considering the topic of the piece, but he also describes his experience in a way that strips it of the kind of romantic authenticity that others are capitalizing on. flattening that into the grotesquerie of "a Black JD Vance" is an impressive fart even for unperson.

i'm really curious / interested if any of the grant or application programs for minority creatives he describes will ever include a clearly defined "poor person" category.

anyway, by all means keep embedding charles murray tweets itt it is very interesting content

though what i would really be interested in is unperson telling us all why he hates poor people so much

unfortunately i was thinking about it some more while i was walking and the article would make no sense logically if the writer was unaware that there is content created by and for black people! like it kind of sounds like that's what he'd prefer to see more of.

anyway it's nice to see that expressed in the elite circle jerk culture ecosystem

ugh insert "poor" in that xpost

the article would make no sense logically if the writer was unaware that there is content created by and for (poor) black people! like it kind of sounds like that's what he'd prefer to see more of.

He came up with exactly one example — Moonlight, a movie with a budget of $1.5 million according to its director. If he really wanted to make the point that he wanted to see more content by poor Black creators, it would be a simple process of listing some books and saying "More like this, please." (Or allowing music to be part of the discussion.) But he's only concerned with what wins National Book Awards and what gets written up in the Atlantic.

The sentence "A decade of unprecedented interest in Black arts and letters has now passed—the greater portion of it bought with footage of people possessing Floyd’s particulars lying dead on the tar—and still you cannot walk into a bookstore to find a shelf named for Black authors raised in poverty." is absurd bullshit. First of all, the last time I went into a physical Barnes & Noble, there was no section for Black authors at all — their books were shelved alphabetically with everybody else's. But when there have been separate sections (and when I worked at Barnes & Noble 20+ years ago, there were), there's absolutely special consideration for "Black authors raised in poverty" — they call it "urban fiction," and it's books like the one I mentioned above, the kind of books this author has zero interest in promoting, by authors whose names he'll never bother to learn, because the readers of Current Affairs would never let such a thing stain their fingers, and he'd rather attack Colson Whitehead and Roxane Gay (whose name he misspells in the piece) for being rich. (I didn't know Gay came from money until reading this. It doesn't change my opinion of her work one way or the other. I used to know one of Whitehead's sisters, a little. She came to a reading I gave for my first book.)