“Sorry That Chaise Is Taken. But You’re A Very Pretty Man”: A Thread for White Lotus on HBOMax

Discuss!

Give Jennifer Coolidge the Emmy for this scene alone #WhiteLotus pic.twitter.com/mfZWREXu6w

— Bimini Bon (Bo)ulash ✨ (@BoBayerl) August 16, 2021

I'm currently watching this with another board member and, let me just say, I have a lot to dissect, since I was born and raised in Hawai'i, am part Native Hawaiian, still live here, and used to work in the tourism industry.

I'm only on episode 2, but there's so much going on in this show. I'm not sure if I support the music choices yet or not.

Hopefully this is a link to where the WL discussion starts in the Enlightened thread.

itt we talk about Enlightened on HBO, seasons 1-1000000

this is v minor but when quinn decided to sleep on the beach i was like “he is def too dumb to understand tides” and i love that the show delivered that to me via his phone being washed out to sea <3

still mind-blown that jennifer coolidges terminally ill “BLM” fuckbuddy is uncle rico from napoleon dynamite

also on an acting level the guy who plays shane is insanely good bc he seriously feels like a person i have met in life

What was fun about him is that he’s mostly just played super nice guys in the past and now it’s har to imagine that.

still mind-blown that jennifer coolidges terminally ill “BLM” fuckbuddy is uncle rico from napoleon dynamite

― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, August 17, 2021 1:10 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I couldn't stop thinking about how much this guy looks like Jonathan Richman.

I also saw Monster Squad and the episode of X-Files he was in over the last several days so this has been a veritable Gries Week for me.

The whole Black Lives Matter joke was pretty silly but pretty hilarious

Also probably based on at least one real incident https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/oregon-fires-antifa-rumors

“Ok we gotta clear this up now,” said one person on Facebook alongside a Bureau of Land Management announcement of area closures. “Blm does NOT stand for Black lives matter in this in reference to the fires.”

The whole Black Lives Matter joke was pretty silly but pretty hilarious

I disagree, I thought it was a rare moment when they relaxed into a more "sitcom-style" joke that wasn't up to the level of the show!

Eh, it might not have been entirely necessary but it was in keeping with the theme of 'well-meaning' privileged liberalism.

Agreed, and to me it wasn't delivered like a sitcom joke. Coolidge's character was the right type to do that sort of thing- hearing something and assuming the meaning without questioning that assumption, and even telling other people about it before verifying (a familiar quirk). And to that point it was something that she brought up very casually in conversations, which made it a little funnier too. AKA It was done believably imo.

yeah it’s a character note for Coolidge, not a rimshot gag for the audience

exactly.

Glad it landed for you guys

i mean she’s in a permanent haze of painkillers etc! she’s not really operating on a normal plane of existence

Maybe now HBO will let Mike White make that Jennifer Coolidge show he talked about

huh, in the end i hated this!

Why’s that

it seemed focused on the perspective of the occupier as opposed to the occupied and had very little to add of interest in its exploration of the subject. it abused and discarded its working class characters with utter disregard. the arcs of every white character were regressive, poorly considered, unsatisfying and ultimately very very stupidly. it rewarded terrible strawmen characters with closure and pathos and wrote off the secondary cast members as cannon fodder. it grew bored with subtlety and swapped subtext and text in episode four/five and never looked back. it gawked at local scenery and people with the same eyes as a tourist and the same level of insight. the pacing was bad: every storyline came to a head at the same time and muddled into a froth of anxiety and unlikely actions. it veered between exceedingly predictable, dragging a red herring and forcing its hand to move the plot forward.

i'm not gonna lie, it had me in the first half with the grotesque character studies, exploration of service industry strata and the quality acting. ultimately though it wasn't about much of anything but "premium HBO drama fumbles with shifting culture" and i'm sorry i sat through it.

so you're saying there's a chance

i'll probably watch s2 like a doofus

some of what you're saying forks is just up to taste but the idea that it focused on the occupiers/white ppl as opposed to the occupied or non-white subjects was a point that alex jung made in a tweet that mike white responded to in his vulture interview so it seems pertinent. ultimately it's a show that sets out to satirize white culture, white people & how they think/talk about and interact w/ people of color, privilege etc & i think it's legitimate to do that by centering the white characters (as objects of derision, it should be noted). to satirize white culture to the degree that the show does -- coming at it from different angles and storylines -- it prob ultimately does need to center the white characters over the non-white characters they interact with. mike white made this point kinda defensively in the interview but i think it's okay that he picked apart whiteness w/ a show that is largely made up of white characters. i had some quibbles in terms of which storylines it focused on over others and the points it ultimately really wanted to make but as a piece of satire i thought it was really funny.

i also disagree w/ whether it gave terrible strawmen characters closure and pathos and treated secondary cast members as cannon fodder.. i don't read the culmination of the shane/rachel storyline as closure or having pathos. it's obvious that their marriage is destined to fail and that she's a fool for returning to him. the family of 4 comes together by the end but their 16 year old kid runs away, kinda the opposite of closure. armond dies by being stabbed by his enemy after shitting in suitcase while high on ketamine -- i'm not sure there's much pathos there. tanya goes out like a fool, and in turn belinda gets the closest thing i can think of in terms of closure and pathos -- telling off a random white stranger and shutting the door in her face. we never see kai after he runs out of the hotel, which i thought was interesting, and i think there could've been more exploration of what happens to him after being arrested, but the show also never leaves the hotel (aside from the few airport scenes) so i think some of that decision has to be chalked up to the constraints of the show (which was really the constraints of filming during covid as opposed to a purely creative constraint).

The show is also imo an indictment of the viewer, of the person sitting on their couch watching a premium cable show and to some extent luxuriating in the lush scenery and chill vibe like a vacation-by-proxy. It's about the rich people maxing and relaxing and other people's misery and I think it gets a lot of mileage out of getting us to, in equal measure, identify with and be repulsed by their 'plights'. I have seen the enemy and it is us, etc. There were logistical concerns that planted the production squarely in the resort but it would've been a whole different show if, for instance, it actually followed Kai home to oversee his day-to-day activities. The White Lotus guests don't really give a shit about that (and are actively trying to avoid any real-world concerns) and we're implicated in that lack of concern.

'maxing and relaxing in other people's misery'

i think it's legitimate to do that by centering the white characters (as objects of derision, it should be noted).

but not only as objects of derision

belinda gets the closest thing i can think of in terms of closure and pathos -- telling off a random white stranger and shutting the door in her face

she also gets a big wad of money

it's obvious that their marriage is destined to fail and that she's a fool for returning to him.

this is definitely not obvious to me

well, i don't think she's a fool for not breaking off her marriage after 5 days or whatever. but i think she has a legitimate realization as to why the marriage is not going to work for her, the kind that you can bury for some time but eventually splits you apart

do we know that belinda takes the money? i can't remember but i feel like it's left ambiguous. we know she puts it in the drawer at the spa front desk but i don't think we see her take it out

I think that's enough to assume she takes it? Seemed like, even then, she's not going to turn down what she can get. Unless I assumed wrong.

I was really curious how much money that was...just enough to be insulting, but not enough to start a business with?

Part of what Coolidge’s character was offering her was money. Most of it was support, belief and affirmation, all of which were to be ongoing. An envelope of loose notes does not contain that.

I would not say Belinda was particularly interested in whether Tonya believed in her or affirmed her, I think she mostly wanted the money!

Yeah agreed. Then with Rachel there was at first a vibe of "well, maybe this crying white lady will work out better than the last one", before "nah, it's not worth it".

I would not say Belinda was particularly interested in whether Tonya believed in her or affirmed her, I think she mostly wanted the money!

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:28 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I agree with this, but it was also more than just cold hard cash. Tanya was a potential *investor* who probably could have helped get the business off the ground in other ways (including, perhaps, by attracting other investors)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAyZVIAfhyM

Yes, I meant financial support as an investor, and affirmation both personal and professional. She has no hope of the latter working in an environment where repeat customers cannot exist.

I really disagree with your assessment forks, I think it's a more powerful statement because all the characters had pathos, they weren't just evil strawmen but at the end of the day they still leave the same wreckage in their wake whether they were "good" or well meaning in some ways

Also I took the ending as just a commentary that yes, the rich leisure class never has to pay for what it's done, which *gestures at the world*

I mean sure, but that seems a really on-the-nose message for a show that made stabs at being notably more subtle and complex for almost three hours before it opted to have lines like "what do you expect me to do, give away all my money" lead to wannabe-antifa liberal arts study girl arranging for her summer fling to rob the joint.
I'm pretty sure i _got_ what White was going for here but I found his conclusions to be insufficiently astringent and ultimately not differing much from in perspective and aim from the culture he was critiquing. The call was coming from inside the room as it were.

most damningly, it's had as much staying power in my mind as The Flight Attendant (which incidentally had similar commentary about service industry serfdom without the pretension and similarly devolved). once it showed its hand fully, white lotus didn't give me much to think about.

of course you shouldn't kill people, take their land, and make them dance. that's bad.

this is a fantastic show.

ums is otm. what separates people with power from those who don't have power in this show is whether you have to face consequences for your actions. in the end, armond is dead and kai is in jail. lani may have lost her job -- we don't see her at all after she gives birth in the office. shane, meanwhile, is on the plane home even though he stabbed someone. and paula never takes responsibility for setting up kai.

paula is a really interesting character because her resentment of the family is very understandable. and she does have a foot in both worlds--but i think she misrecognizes the privilege she does have, and it is notable that the "solution" she offers to kai is one that will hurt him more than olivia's family. i was disappointed she didn't own up to her role in the robbery. i don't know if that could have helped kai, but it might have.

paula misundersatnds a lot, really. (tbf she is only 20). like, she sses that olivia wanted to get close to her guy, but she doesnt' see that the only reason she was drawn to do that is to get closer to *her*. i don't know if it the attraction is sexual, but olivia loves paula in a way that isn't reciprocated. the cynicism of the characters means these aren't feelings they could even discuss frankly even if they wanted to.

all of the privileged characters are oblivious though -- they never need to look reality in the face. rachel is another one of these borderline characters. as with paula, in the end she chooses to live in the cocoon of wealth, despite her reservations. i guess the idea is that it's really hard to throw away this kind of luxury, the luxury of carelessness, even though it is a condition that over time erodes the mind and spirit (look at jocelyn)

i read Rachel's return to Shane just through a lens of total cynicism, like she had this awakening to the reality of what she signed up for, recoiled, but then calculated that she'd be insane to prioritize intangible things like dignity and authenticity over money, status, power over others (even if she will never have them in the context of her marriage)

Ultimately I didn't love the series in part because the plot eventually forces all the characters to fall sharply on one side of the have/have-not line. I mean, that is probably totally accurate for a place like that. But it deprives the commentary of some depth and nuance. It was damn pretty to look at though.

she sses that olivia wanted to get close to her guy, but she doesnt' see that the only reason she was drawn to do that is to get closer to *her*. i don't know if it the attraction is sexual, but olivia loves paula in a way that isn't reciprocated. the cynicism of the characters means these aren't feelings they could even discuss frankly even if they wanted to.

I think you're giving Olivia too much credit - she idealizes Paula as an exotic other and uses their friendship as a tool to give some cred to the self-righteousness and condescension she throws at her family and their wealthy milieu. When they talk about Olivia wanting whatever Paula has, and then when she hits on Kai, I think it underscores that she doesn't actually care about Paula too deeply beyond that function. She likes her when she (Olivia) has the power but rushes in to reassert her dominance (or pout at the failure to do so) when Paula achieves something that is beyond Olivia.

Of course genuine friendships can still evolve out of weird power dynamics like that so I'd say it's otm that their cynicism is the barrier - absent that, could see them working through that shit and having something more genuine. also you could certainly read Paula's relationship with Kai as Paula herself enacting that exoticized other thing, like just her way of asserting that she's not really like all these other pampered white guests. Her ultimate plan, pushing Kai to steal the jewelry, supports that read, let alone that she takes no action to implicate herself

she idealizes Paula as an exotic other and uses their friendship as a tool to give some cred to the self-righteousness and condescension she throws at her family and their wealthy milieu.

This is what Paula accuses Olivia of but for some reason I don’t think it’s really true. If it was, I think Olivia would have been defensive or apologetic when called out but she just seems confused. And at the very end, when she turns toward her in bed, I just feel like her biggest anxiety in that moment is losing her friend.

I am not saying that Olivia is a good person. She is cynical and opportunistic and there is a way in which she uses Paula for “cred” with her family. But I think there is also a deeper attraction there. And I don’t think going after Kai was about taking something from Paula, it seemed like a classic homosocial triangle.

In the end, not an important part of the show, really. But I think it shows that deeper feelings between people can complicate these clean divisions based on social and economic power.

xp
Agree. Olivia has a history of going after Paula's boyfriends, but it seems only partly jealousy but mostly about O feeling the bf will take P away, so she's trying to insinuate herself in Paula's other friendships.

i don't know, would be interested to see them in another context. i kinda feel like Paula is there because Olivia's parents told her she could bring a friend, and Paula was the lucky one who got picked out of their group of college friends, not that there's anything particular about their friendship. But it would be fun to see them pop up in the next season, like they're backpacking around whatever exotic locale it's set in

eh, i think olivia and paula def had 1-on-1 closeness that was meant to be a bit inscrutable, they even had a maybe-sexual-maybe-not get high and do asmr ritual

i think it's safe to say white has a particular interest in complicated relationships with tangled, impure motivations

oh yeah forgot about the asmr thing, ok i buy it

Forks otm.

In particular

it seemed focused on the perspective of the occupier as opposed to the occupied and had very little to add of interest in its exploration of the subject. it abused and discarded its working class characters with utter disregard. the arcs of every white character were regressive, poorly considered, unsatisfying and ultimately very very stupidly

Kept thinking there would be some reveal about Kai - was he just a grifter, playing up to some noble exploited native stereotype? Would we learn anything about his family/tensions with his brothers?

Felt like it wanted to be a KNIVES OUT style satire of Rich White Foax, except KO though much more cartoony and stylised actually showed more curiosity about the non-RWFs.

And I suppose particularly disappointing cos I've been watching Freaks and Geeks with my daughters recently, and had a great conversation with them about the 'Kim Kelly is My Friend' ep - which I think Mike White wrote? (he certainly appears in it!) - and which did such a fantastic job of I guess decentering the comfortable middle class centre of the trad US high school/wonderyears type show. Never felt White Lotus took any risks like that...

I don’t know.

Belinda wasn’t a cipher. She wanted to start a business. When Tonya offered to invest, she was skeptical at first but later allowed herself to get her hopes up. When she is discarded—by Tonya, not the narrative—it is crushing. You feel her resentment, her rage and heartbreak.

Armand wasn’t a cipher either. He was an addict who prided himself of maintaining his composure. He even had a theory of what it means to be a good member of the service class—that is, a good listener, barely individualized. But as with Belinda, this wears on him, and he snaps.

Kai was mysterious. But I think that is the point. We see him through the eyes of Paula, who is outraged by his plight, but unable to fully see what it means for him to be in this economically precarious position, forced to work for the resort that screwed over his family. The solution she proposes to him is one that could only make sense to someone who is deeply sheltered. He went along with it because he trusted her for some reason. That is the piece that isn’t fully convincing.

Like Paula didn’t “get” the consequences for Kai. Possibly even at the end she didn’t get it.

Loooooved this show. Belinda was one of my fave characters. I became very frustrated with Rachel’s bug eyed grimacing — did she not know this guy before agreeing to marry him? She was so meek. Shane’s mom was cringey perfection though.
I started working at a restaurant about a month ago (after 20+!years not working in service industry) and the show was extra rich through that lens.

Yeah that was something that bothered me too. Rachel was written like she was meeting Shane for the first time along with the audience, and both her and the viewers are disgusted by the behavior of this total dick- oh wait, she apparently just married him... She says something about getting "swept up" (I think) in the short time they were together, but seemed still a way too new to his quirks and personality. I'd have rather had her more believably demonstrate a familiarity with that behavior that then hits a breaking point over the honeymoon for the same reasons. Would have bought it more.

agree with that. there are plenty of things you could pick apart about this show but my general review is that it was a bunch of awesome actors digging into some great characters and that was plenty for me to enjoy it.

One problem I had was that no ever questioned (besides Olivia, but only to Paula) how Kai got the code to the safe. Maybe the assumption was that he also had a master key to the safe, which I suppose must exist, but I would think is much more closely guarded than a room master key.

I’m sure that is being investigated. Paula might just arrogantly assume Kai will stay quiet about it. She doesn’t seem worried about that at the end. Guilty and conflicted, sure.

Halfway through the season, absolutely love this show, hanging on every scene. Not sure why

yep, i was too.

Feel like molly Shannon kind of disrupted the flow. just out of place somehow….

I became very frustrated with Rachel’s bug eyed grimacing — did she not know this guy before agreeing to marry him? She was so meek.

she was very frustrating. i think she is supposed to be a parallel to paula. both are characters who have one foot in the privileged milieu, and one foot outside of it. and both are repulsed by the arrogance and entitlement they find inside the castle walls so to speak, and struggle in their own (really different) ways. but in the end, neither gives up the protection afforded them by wealth. they choose the gilded cage.

when steve zahn says it's "human nature" to keep what you have and not give it away, this is a very ignorant way to deflect critiques of colonialism and its legacies. however, in a purely descriptive sense, i guess the show is saying that it is true.

but yeah, rachel is a coward, basically. and she is also in bad faith. she doesn't admit to herself that she is making the lazy choice of marrying some rich guy for his money. she holds out this moral superiority over her husband but in the end it's not all that justified.

you guys are mean

the show actually had some with her character getting bullied. "you wrote that? that i 'rode a post-metoo wave' to sucess? that was a really fucked up piece." lmao.

Mean? Please. The world of Mike White is not a benevolent one. I didn’t make the show!

I did look up the actress who played Rachel and she was in a Baywatch reboot — it was interesting to me the way that her real life career mirrored her role in WL. She was valued for her body and beauty and eventually she gave into it.

Her role in True Detective was memorable. Particular one scene that was quite a hit with the internet.

daddario is widely considered one of the world's most desirable women so casting her as the self-worth questioning striver relegated to trophy status after being swept up by money and beauty was a good call. I thought she mostly did a good job figuring out what to do with what she was allowed but found her ultimately hollow, not in the sense of that being who she was as a character/actress but simply underwritten and unconsidered.

i'm 20 minutes in and i am already sold, this is gonna be fun

disappointed to find out she's not a guitar string scion

So, obviously this show (which I haven't seen) has gotten people a talkin', or at least a watchin'. I'm a bit perplexed, though, since I've been trying to find out what it's about without ruining anything for myself. Is it another one those dark underbelly of the rich and pretty stories, or is there more to it than that? Or is that enough?

evil under the sun at a hawaii resort with maximum white privilege

(it’s not exactly that but that’s the hook & that was what got me into it)

Is it another one those dark underbelly of the rich and pretty stories

Superficially, yes

or is there more to it than that?

Lots

my wife was watching this and i caught bits in the background and i hated it for a lot of the reasons forks explained

that scene where they did drugs and ate ass was p good tho

(this is my way of saying u should not take my opinion seriously on this show but also forks otm)

Uncle Rico is distracting
Show makes a hard right exit to the mainstream around ep 4
Season should have ended with ep 3

It’s a clever conceit to use the resort as an ever - changing Joseph Cornell box of characters and situations. Just keep it weird is all I’m saying

i spoke too soon, this might not be fun. spoilers follow, but there are tons in the thread already so i guess i'll not hide them under the tags, sry.

serious issue with the first episode: Lani's character choice to try and get through her first day on the job after going into labor.

yes, the crappy wage index and cost of living here put massive pressures on working people, the native Hawaiian population especially, but this was a huge stretch and i couldn't even briefly imagine that a Hawaiian woman (or any woman, really, come on) is going to grievously endanger her unborn child's life as well as her own for any job, even day one of a desperately needed new job.

yes i googled and saw that this has been reported to have actually happened at least once.

but i think it's kinda racist or at least very problematic as presented here, given that Lani was the only Hawaiian character with much of a speaking part in the episode, thus tokenizing her in what proved to be a consistently demeaning role.

yeah the show is shitting on privileged white people a lot but it's also at the expense of the disadvantaged, disenfranchised native people they're exploiting.

had the writers ever met any Hawaiian women, or, like, any women?

there's only one writer I think

Mike White wrote it all himself, and is a privileged white guy who owns a home in Hawaii

he writes like his actual name is White

bet he's one of those settlers who only hangs out with other haoles

The longer these kind of shows go on, the worse they get. End it early ffs

now that i've seen the whole thing and read the threads, some thoughts (SPOILERS AHEAD, btw):

- agree it was overlong, and Molly Shannon's turn was particularly inconsequential.
- during episodes 2 and 3, Jasmine and i saw so few local-looking people on staff at the hotel we weren't even convinced they shot this in Hawai'i. obviously almost all the casting happened on the continent.
- lots of great acting all around. IDK where Lucas Gage is from but he's convincing as a local haole and rly cute.
- they couldn't have made Armond's character a local boy or girl? wouldn't that have made this show much more interesting?
- it wasn't necessary for the police to have caught Kai. Olivia could easily have figured out what Paula did without that happening.
- this show could've redeemed itself by making a second series centered around the Hawaiian characters, kinda like The Wire. it would've been sick to follow Kai's quest to fight to reclaim the stolen land. the show just throws him away instead, just like Lani.
- Mike White's interview in Vulture explaining why it's okay for this show to do that is outrageously fucking embarrassing and makes me hate him as a writer.

also:

- i'm not over that Vulture interview, seriously what an arrogant piece of shit. all he does is talk about himself, couched in a college sophomore level of philosophical thought.
- this show's representation of the ketamine experience goes from inept to contradictory in every possible way
- for a show centered on place ("Hawaiʻi"), the original score sure feels like Africa
- i am very interested in what hourspass and their ILXor friend might have to say

- they couldn't have made Armond's character a local boy or girl? wouldn't that have made this show much more interesting?

so much of Armond's traits immediately show you that he's an outsider, who has progressed through different states of rootlessness, before you even learn how he's struggling to keep it together. A middle-aged gay man, who grew up during AIDS, who's striven upwards in a competitive industry hat requires you to mask your true self, who speaks the language but in a way that marks him as other from the white privileged customers... all this makes sense immediately AND to underscore the end-of-his-rope guy who has no friends or allies or professional support structure.

- this show could've redeemed itself by making a second series centered around the Hawaiian characters, kinda like The Wire. it would've been sick to follow Kai's quest to fight to reclaim the stolen land.

tbf none of us know what the second series will have been going to be about until after it is written and filmed and edited and broadcast

cool cool cool, maybe next season will feature a local character in a speaking role for more than one episode

I enjoyed the series but by the end the issue of the treatment of the Hawaiian characters became more than just an ethical one - it unbalanced the drama. I couldn’t concentrate on the denouement i
I was being presented with on screen because I just had Kai’s fate on my mind and he was nowhere to be seen.

I even missed that (according to this thread) the couple got back together. I thought they were just having an “I’m doing OK” post-breakup moment.

btw davey I agree that a local-focused second season would be much much better than another take on the first!

right?? i didn't mean to imply Armond was an unwelcome character. he was the heart of the show and i appreciated him a lot.

I mostly enjoyed this, but there were so many little, inconsequential moments that threw me off. One that still sticks to mind is that I refuse to believe that Connie Britton's character wouldn't know what weed smells like. Come on. I mean, I'm sure it was meant to play into the idea of how clueless she was about what her kids were up to, but it rang really false to me.

Also that the glass bong already/still had water in it after supposedly being thoughtlessly tossed in a bag and on a long flight?

I read that as she knew exactly what they were smoking but only required their denial to not have to address it.

That's true, I didn't consider that reading. It was minor, just bugged me a little.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2021 season is nominated in the ILX TV poll, with voting ending this weekend:

ILX's Best Television of 2021 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 31, 2022

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

Coming back for another season at the end of this month, set in Italy, excited.

per wikipedia looks like an almost entirely new cast, jennifer coolidge the only one holding over. and f. murray abraham!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Baflc_0XVfY

Abraham’s great. Hard to watch, given all the characters’ contempt for each other, but also really well done for what it’s doing. Nice to see Imperioli have a substantial role.

“Its a penis, not a sunset.”

xerox copy of the first episode of the first season, without any of the charm or originality and with lower stakes, what a bummer

aww
I thought it was really good
tho I got some mental flashbacks of the sopranos episode where Christopha and crew go to Sicily

I can’t deny that it was formulaic, but I’m already hooked.

i was told that the cheese here was made by a blind nun in a basement

yeah, that was a good line

“who do you think I look like?”

*terrible hotel manager scowls*

“Peppa Pig?”

I thought this episode was kind of less than stellar and not very fun. Maybe it was The NY Times spoilers from their dumb article yesterday

The Peppa Pig line was great

Uncle Rico not so Suave

it's absolutely not a carbon copy of the first season, wtf

i wasn’t all super-jazzed prior going into season 2 for some reason, but I am really enjoying it so far

Imperioli in his silver fox phase is v good

and i love Aubrey Plaza in everything! the guy who plays her husband is a bit flat to me but that also is prob the character

and obv the scenery is 🤯

Plaza is annoying
Imperioli doesn’t have a lot of lines

i like the hookers.

can't tell if the rich couple are going to turn out to be swingers, pervs, frauds, or what.

rich dude is v good at giving off generally terrible vibes

Which rich dude?

i like the hookers.

I am vested in this show because I’m a white guy who would never go to a place like this

xxpost the rich techbro silicon valley guy with the redheaded wife

three episodes into season 2, nothing is really working for me. the hookers are a much more boring retread of the college kids from last season. can’t bring myself to care much about any of the 4 people in the 2 main couples yet. it’s great to see imperioli but I’m…just not really buying the drama and tension wrt his sex addiction. and I continue to be baffled by the screentime given to jennifer coolidge and the acclaim she’s gotten for this role. I found myself looking at my phone for the majority of her scenes in the first season

there might be something to the ethan/harper relationship and its excruciating sexlessness, how they think (or at least harper thinks) they “talk about everything” without really being on the same page or having a lot in common dispositionally

The two hot guys will have had sex in college, it will be revealed

Agree with your first post, this is not a good example of “premiere tv,” is forgettable, but is fun to look at. I like the feeling of eavesdropping on these people, as if I’m also at the resort and just hanging out on the periphery.

The two hot guys will have had sex in college, it will be revealed

yeah this "i want to be inside you" comments when they were laying on the bed were either a joke or a huge reveal, and I think it's a testament to the show that you can't tell which yet.

Dunno, I don't like this season as much as the first one but I do think it's good and look forward to it every week.

I thought it was also an excellent depiction of the aggressive wielding of faux-gay sexuality common to a certain kind of straight (?) alpha bro.

Bro code
Broicide
Brotrification

it is washing over me mostly, i’m not like engrossed in the characters but it’s nice to look at

Really enjoyed how the storylines started to overlap in the new episode. And, yeah, beautiful to look at shot by shot.

It's becoming clear that everyone has a scam or scheme in motion, which is very different from season 1. It all feels increasingly Highsmith-y and I'm here for it.

I'm a little resistant to discussing this show, b/c I don't want to break the "spell" (and it's not the kind of series I feel like picking apart, à la "The Mandalorian" or something) - but I'm really into this season, even more than S1. Maybe because it's a little softer-edged and more "subtle"? Idk

The wild thing for me is how show feels like "it shouldn't be as good as it is"... like, the plot should feel mechanical and contrived; the characters should seem like hollow constructs, created solely to be satirized... but they don't! (at least to me, maybe they do to others.) The show is totally effective somehow, even though you can see exactly "what's it's doing" as it does it – if that makes ense. (It probably helps that the casting/performances are so good.)

Last week's episode (E4) was just so damn excellent to me... last night's didn't quite live up, but they had to keep moving the stories along; and not sure how they could have done it without letting the air out somewhat.

I was extremely glad that the mystery condom wrapper was confronted, I couldn't handle that hanging in the air unspoken any longer. But yeah I agree, I'm really looking forward to every episode.

I really appreciate how none of the main characters are either totally hateable, or totally sympathetic (as "people")... some go pretty far in one direction or the other, but there are always these little complicating factors that keep any of them from being absolute heroes or villains.

The actors who play "Daphne" and "Portia" (neither of whom I've seen before) are so good in those roles, just on the level of basic line-delivery, it's like – these absolutely feel like real people.

My wife is totally done with this show now – she feels like the storylines are driven by misunderstandings that would be easily resolved if the characters just talked with each other; she can't identify with the characters b/c they're mostly rich, who cares about their problems; etc.

I think this is totally valid – it's actually how I felt at the beginning of S1. I was sort of repelled, and it took me a few episodes to get into the groove.

But my 2 cents is that the characters don't communicate not only because "you wouldn't have a show if they did," but also because they're not honest ppl... they're all flawed in one way or another, and you're not meant to fundamentally identify with them. I feel like the show works from the opposite direction – it's set up like a satire, the kind that (in less skilled hands) sets up its characters for the viewer to feel smugly superior to (this is what I thought was happening, initially, in S1). But it's so well done that (for me) it succeeds in making the characters sympathetic and "complex," despite their almost absurd privilege, their deep flaws, the heavy hand of the plotting, etc. (I think I'm pretty much just repeating what I said above, in different words, sorry.)

It's like the show takes the predetermination and characters-as-archetypes of classical drama (which I guess it obviously alludes to), and makes something rich and modern out of that. I totally don't expect this approach to work for everybody – and I guess part of what impresses me so much about the show is that it seems really hard to do, and yet it's sure working for me.

Btw – my wife just showed me a post from Reddit or someplace that makes clear who the “cowboy” in the photo actually was, which I totally missed!

THE BREAKOUT STAR OF THE WHITE LOTUS SEASON 2: ANGRY ITALIAN GRANDMA W/ ARTICHOKE pic.twitter.com/XITAeasKEr

— 𝙎𝙝𝙤𝙘𝙠 𝙅𝙖𝙘𝙦𝙪𝙚𝙨 𝘿𝙚𝙢𝙮 (@EmmaTolkin) December 5, 2022

The actors who play "Daphne" and "Portia" (neither of whom I've seen before) are so good in those roles, just on the level of basic line-delivery, it's like – these absolutely feel like real people.

― "Mick Wall at Kerrang!" (morrisp), Monday, November 28, 2022 1:35 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

Daphne is played by Meghann Fahy, who outshone her castmates in The Bold Type.

"my wife just showed me a post from Reddit or someplace that makes clear".... yeah, this is the major reveal that makes sense of (and redeems) that entire storyline.

the photo reveal was great, finally some confirmation that the unknown grift the glamorous gay party posse is up to isn't a plot point in seclusion

Tanya seeing obvious red flags in the last two episodes and then just rolling on because she enjoys all the attention and the atmosphere is just... good god, she never learns. her plucky assistant's going to nope out of this entire charade now

the "threatening" guy who is following Lucia around? hmm yeah sure

she feels like the storylines are driven by misunderstandings that would be easily resolved if the characters just talked with each other;

This is normally a huge pet peeve of mine, but really the only storyline that involves this is the Harper/Ethan one, and that's gotten better. Like in the last ep, I groaned when she saw him talking to the Lucia and Mia, but thankfully in the next scene she says "I saw you talking to those hookers".

Aside from that it's grifts all around.

don't understand why if Harper sees her husband talking to the hookers she wouldn't just go up and start talking to the hookers herself and asking them to explain what's going on

Love the Neil Tennant / "One Night In Bankok" vibes from Quentin.

They're speedy, always grabbing one another by the hand and running around the hotel. Also prostitute/client confidentiality.

xp

"the "threatening" guy who is following Lucia around? hmm yeah sure"

yeah this I dunno about. I saw someone else say that guy was in the first episode but I don't remember seeing him; if he was, then i'm more inclined to believe her.

When imperioli’s son asks Lucia what it would take for the the pimp to leave her alone and she replies money…is that another financial scam in the works? I can’t really read her character and the narrative paints her in a sympathetic light vs the evil little English geezer

It definitely feels like a maneuver to play on the savior complex of the son (and all three of them, as that car scene showed). But the car scene would have been a pretty elaborate gambit, although much less elaborate than the lengths the Palermo crew is going to to set up Jennifer Coolidge for adultery I guess.

I could have sworn that Lucia and Mia have previously talked about how they're doing this completely on their own

my assumption is that the guy following her is either a jealous ex, or more likely she's plotted with him to stage this to turn the situation from several payments for sex work into a lump sum once she gets the entire family sympathetic to her plight

I'm still assuming it's a gambit and he's a buddy of Lucia's.

This is normally a huge pet peeve of mine, but really the only storyline that involves this is the Harper/Ethan one, and that's gotten better.

Yeah, my wife thinks it just doesn't make sense that Ethan wouldn't come clean with her from the beginning – he knows how to communicate w/his wife, and why would he cover for a dude he doesn't even like? But it didn't feel "off" to me personally; I took Ethan's initial dishonesty as rooted in (a) guilt for what did happen (even though he didn't technically cheat), and (b) a misguided loyalty to Cameron, due to that lopsided power dynamic from their college days.

Same. And a desire to avoid conflict, both with his wife and not wanting to cause a "whole thing" by potentially blowing up Cameron's marriage.

(Also, it's just kind of a parable of what can happen when you're not honest – which works for me in the context of this show. "A basically good guy makes a bad decision, and it snowballs...")

I'm pretty sure Harper is just playing with Ethan now in an attempt to make him jealous and get him to actually see her as a sexual being instead of as a wife-shaped fixture in his life

the reveal was interesting, especially in light of the balcony phone convo earlier this season–i think we might know who was on the other end of the line

Yeah – I guess it’s all becoming clear now. That’s quite a long con…

is it? each episode seems to encompass about a day at the resort

If I'm understanding it right, the con would have started when Jennifer Coolidge's husband inititally "hooked" her at the Hawaii resort, in S1; with the intention of marrying her, then eventually bringing her to the Italy resort near where Quentin lives; at which point Quentin would lure her in and do... whatever he's about to do to her... splitting the fortune that will presumably come to husband if she dies/disappears (tho it's not clear why she actually needs to come to Italy for that to happen, so IDK

I don’t think it’s that involved, but… maybe!

Greg wasn’t exactly trying his hardest to seduce in s1

That's true!

But it seems too coincidental otherwise for her to frequent White Lotus resorts, and there happens to be one in Sicily, and Greg's not just disenchanted with his wife but actually willing to go along with this devious scheme that his old buddy proposes(?) I guess we'll see, hope it's somewhat fleshed out in the final ep.

The best guess I saw online was that the marriage had a pre-nup where Greg gets nothing but it might have an infidelity clause

^^yep, that's my theory. The prenup was explicitly mentioned by Greg this season, they had a conversation about it in the first few eps.

Chekov's prenuptual agreement, mentioned in act one

I remember the prenup convo too... I just fear that mere infidelity isn't what they're orchestrating here. They could have done that without making sure that the young guy, Jack, had "hooked" Portia (which I assume started with his first dip in the pool), so he could keep her away from the party that night.

(Or to put it another way – they could have hired any handsome young escort for that, and stuck to the hotel; they wouldn't need a Mafia guy with a gun in his bag...)

She’ll be like the roadrunner and walk away from the chaos oblivious and unscathed into season 3.

^^^

I don’t buy it. It feels like Empire strikes back when they made Vader Luke’s dad

If we’re right about what the con is/who the “cowboy” is, leaving that photo out on the table is awfully (and uncharacteristically?) sloppy.

they had loud sex with the bedroom door open

yeah there is not a lot of tact here

Trying to connect the seasons here is unnecessary. The storylines of S2 can stand on their own just fine

It feels like Empire strikes back when they made Vader Luke’s dad

I was SO relieved the boys’ “getting back to our roots” visit didn’t result in discovering Mia’s a blood relative.

(assuming you mean Lucia) lol, I'm glad that didn't occur to me.

Whoops, yes Lucia lol

Michael Imperioli (and his story) is the weak link for me... is he just not a great actor? I don't think I've seen him in much until this show, and his recent role in This Fool – which is very different, but he also didn't seem entirely "committed" to it.

sharing almost every scene he's in with F. Murray Abraham makes it hard for him surely

Is it possible he’s lost his acting chops? I wasn’t aware that was a thing

As a bit of trivia, his wife cursing him out over the phone (in Ep. 1) was Laura Dern.

ok I was finding him somewhat sympathetic but cheating on Laura Dern is unacceptable

Someone mentioned a flashing red dot when Tanya began her tryst with the disrobed Mafia stud... so maybe it really is just a matter of capturing infidelity on video (however evidence like that could be submitted in an actual divorce proceeding).

Yep. Maybe she'll be penniless in s3.

I didn't realize that there's only one episode left, I thought there were two. That's not enough for all this shit to go down!

My work buddy has a kinda funny theory for how the "Michael Imperioli & fam" plotline is gonna wrap up (and who the floating bodies turn out to be), but I won't bother mentioning it unless it pans out.

blunt force trauma via artichoke

Perhaps one of the Imperiolis will murder the "pimp"

pimp is maybe not a pimp but could be Lucia's dealer amd connected to other guy with Tanya

zp Yeah, that's basically his supposition... F. Murray is like, "We gotta do something, COME ON" – and goads the other two into a course of action that results in the "pimp" and the other guy ending up in the water (I think this is unlikely, but given how S1 ended, who knows...)

Michael Imperioli (and his story) is the weak link for me... is he just not a great actor? I don't think I've seen him in much until this show

you never watched the Sopranos?

No! I understand it is very highly regarded (fwiw, I never had HBO until fairly recently).

(I've watched the much-discussed final scene on YouTube... that should cover it, right? lol)

rewatching the first episode, we know "a few" people die and not just the one in the sea. Rocco calls them "hotel guests", so the "pimp" seems unlikely. A Cameron-looking guy comforts Daphne on the beach after she discovers the floater, but they don't show his face.

xp i am going to humbly suggest you pause this show and watch the sopranos

^

ok I was finding him somewhat sympathetic but cheating on Laura Dern is unacceptable

this scene is so much funnier knowing it’s improvised im crying #whitelotus pic.twitter.com/351D3Om0Xy

— Cris ✨ (@lionesspike) December 6, 2022

Checks out:

I was feeling intimidated by Mike White, by Jennifer Coolidge—who, to me, is a goddess of acting—so I was not sleeping, neurotic, a nightmare! I put everything inside Valentina. All the nights that I didn’t sleep, I said “maybe Valentina doesn’t sleep.” Valentina is lonely, Valentina is lost, Valentina feels uncomfortable, and Valentina is bitchy because she’s reacting to her fear. The more she’s bitchy, the more she’s trying to protect herself, because inside she’s fucking dying.

The first click happened when I did an improvisation with Jennifer during the scene where I called her Peppa Pig—that was improvisation. Then another click happened in the first scene I shot with Isabella (Eleonora Romandini), because I was so happy that I could finally be softer.

I laughed out loud at the Peppa Pig line.

Well well well!

Seems unlikely to me that Jack doesn’t lock his phone, and that Portia knows Tanya’s number by heart?; and I’m not sure that conversation was needed, anyway

I’m also kinda nonplussed that Tanya had to go out that way :/

Good stuff overall, though!

(actually, that second thing I said was unlikely isn’t all that unlikely, now that I think about it… she probably needs to enter it into online forms and recite it over the phone etc. all the time)

Well, that was satisfying!

that was a very expensive vacation for Christopher Moltisanti

THE WHITE LOTUS Season 2 Review: This meeting could have been an email.

— Sean Burns (@SeanMBurns) December 12, 2022

I liked Imperioli in this ep, btw… He was very good in the conversation about $$$ with his son.

given that tanya returned for this season and it feels like there are some dangling threads from this story re: greg, I wonder if he will return in season 3, but I really don't want him to.

this was an extraordinary bit of facial acting

In a star-studded finale that was riveting from start to finish, Meghann Fahy stole the whole damn show. Insane performance. #WhiteLotus
pic.twitter.com/g15KLn6Zm9

— Joey (@SoManyWays2Joey) December 12, 2022

I really thought Tanya would make it through to the next season, give a thread of consistency through the seasons. Started wondering if any other characters might show up in season 3, like do we follow Portia or Harper? no those would be terrible. Maybe Mia gets a gig at a different White Lotus. That works for me. I kinda love Valentina's arc, that she actually ends up someone happy and decent.

liked the finale a lot overall, thought this in particular was so funny

after tanya discovers the gun and rope in niccolo's bag and then emerges from the cabin guns ablazing, she still obliviously asks "is greg having an affair?!" as if that's a bigger betrayal than his scheming to get her murdered!

As uncharacteristic of me as it is to root against gay sex, I’m grateful the Ethan/Cameron relationship didn’t resolve in the way that many were expecting/hoping.

The whole final sequence on the yacht was terrific, alternately hilarious and terrifying. Love when Tanya was trying to be so casual walking around the gays but then ran up the side of the boat to use her phone

and the look of horror on her face when she found out the boat captain was gay haha

“Tutti!”

she still obliviously asks "is greg having an affair?!" as if that's a bigger betrayal than his scheming to get her murdered!

for her it is and to watch this show properly you have to respect that

Very tempted to propose changing thread title to "Do you know these gays??"

xp i mean we can understand that it is more important to her without having to respect it

There were several great lines... my favorite was "Not even Instagram?"

Re: the tweet above... right?! Meghann Fahy is just next-level on this show.

xp I think the correct understanding of the show is that Tanya, seen by everybody around her as a rube and a mark, is the only character who really understands what's going on and what actually matters.

The phone thing bugs me to the point that I'm telling myself (as a "No Prize" attempt) that Jack purposefully left an unlocked phone sitting there out of "guilt," to give Portia chance to maybe affect the course of things, etc. Seems unlikely, but it's an uncharacteristically clumsy plot device otherwise... to have him take her phone (which makes sense, but didn't have to happen), and then rig a way for her to make a call regardless.

can't you make an "emergency call" on any of these smartphones with the phone locked?

the show uses a lot of plot contrivances, i don't think an airtight plot is what i watch it for

I kinda love Valentina's arc, that she actually ends up someone happy and decent.

She fired an employee so she could replace him with somebody she was fucking!

xp That's true, but somehow tech "shortcuts" in shows/movies always bug me (lol). I think you can only make an emergency call to 911 or the local equivalent...

Yeah, Valentina's not ending up with anyone... she has to go hit those clubs now!

She fired an employee so she could replace him with somebody she was fucking!

yeah but that guy was lame, mia's fun, and now she has friends.

shows and movies are constantly ignoring the lock screen on phones

i loved tania’s “do you speak english?” to the boat captain & then proceeds to talk to him in english anyway lol

xp I think the correct understanding of the show is that Tanya, seen by everybody around her as a rube and a mark, is the only character who really understands what's going on and what actually matters.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, December 12, 2022 12:10 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i'd love to hear more about this, because i pretty categorically disagree.

if you’re watching tv or film to see people accurately unlocking phones i might instead suggest youtube content that serve ppl with very specific obsessions

So many potential moments for violence that (enjoyable) avoided them. It seemed like the piano player was going to take revenge, and the tension when Daphne starts leading Ethan to an isolated place…

(enjoyably)

xxp I don't think I'm "obsessed" with it, but it def trips me up... it's sort of like seeing someone get in a car and drive off without the keys!

Plus, again, they didn't need to have him take her phone at all (he was passed out drunk, how did he remember to wake up and do it?). The guys on the boat could have taken TANYA'S phone away, and achieved the same result (it would have also avoided the "oops, she fumbled and dropped her phone in the water" moment). All you'd lose if T & P couldn't talk at all would be the conversation that (IMO) spelled things out in unnecessary detail. Tanya's pretty thick, but probably cold have put the pieces together...

Jack could have had her phone in his pocket and thought it was his cuz he’s a dummy (you’re smart. Smarter than me).

i know this sounds crazy but sometimes ppl get up in the middle of the night & then go back to sleep. even ones who were previously passed out

FFS

can you guys figure out the phone stuff & let me know when its sorted

enough w the phone shit jesus christ

Did anyone in this episode go into a bar and simply tell the bartender “gimme a beer”, because that always takes me out of the story

yeah but then tanya shot 'em directly through the heart

OK, I’m on my own here! I won’t mention the phone again, lol

Hey didja guys notice the takeout coffee cups that were clearly empty… (just kidding)

Prosthetic dongs, too.

Maybe Portia had seen him unlock it during their time together and knew the passcode

i liked that the upshot of the whole season /series is that everyone is deeply self-involved and therefore quite stupid. it’s kind of easy to build a “mystery” around gormless characters, literally anything could happen to anyone & it would be a complete surprise to them

like ppl on twitter thinking alby would turn out to be an incel (lol) but guess what turns out he’s just an idiot

like imagine an ethan detective series

DID U MURDER HER
Yes I did
SO THEN U ~WERENT~ WALKING YOUR DOG?
I… Sorry what?
THE DOG! DID IT EVER GET WALKED? IT NEEDS EXERCISE!
Uh. No. I didn’t take the dog for a walk.
YOU MONSTER.

Plus, again, they didn't need to have him take her phone at all (he was passed out drunk, how did he remember to wake up and do it?). The guys on the boat could have taken TANYA'S phone away, and achieved the same result (it would have also avoided the "oops, she fumbled and dropped her phone in the water" moment). All you'd lose if T & P couldn't talk at all would be the conversation that (IMO) spelled things out in unnecessary detail. Tanya's pretty thick, but probably cold have put the pieces together...

― Wet Legume (morrisp), Monday, December 12, 2022 1:16 PM (twenty-three minutes ago)

i think for me what i got out of this scene was less that plot points were being spelled out for the audience -- we were the omniscient ones here after all -- and more that tanya, a profoundly lonely woman, was actually dropping her guard and building something resembling a real relationship (friendship) with her assistant, who i think we can feel comfortable assuming is one of the only people actually present in her life. we see her processing real human emotions -- "i didn't want to hurt you earlier, but i care about you and you've gotten yourself in too deep and i need to reveal the truth to you" ... in that moment i feel like her storyline actually comes full circle from season 1, where we see her step outside of herself to consider caring for/about someone else (belinda) before giving up on the whole thing. the whole final episode is sorta about tanya becoming a real human -- danger becomes so clearly present to her that she actually allows herself some agency over her life -- and tanya and portia banding together is key to that arc.

of course, the kicker is that, in the end, not only does tanya die but it seems like portia takes jack's advice and doesn't return to the hotel or check up on tanya's whereabouts & in fact seems rather blasé when albie all but reveals to her that tanya was found dead. we see portia slow motion panicking over two episodes as it becomes clear to her that jack has ulterior motives for wooing her, and she uses tanya as a crutch to try and escape his grasp -- "i need my phone, i have to call my boss, i'm on a work trip." but in the end all tanya was to portia was a means to an end. she seems quite okay w/ tanya's death meaning that she gets to move on w/ her life, even tho up until her death tanya was, for the first time ever, genuinely trying to help her (or, in all likelihood, anyone)

That's really good, I like that (yes, Portia def. didn't seem too "cool" at the end)

i appreciated portia's blaséness about tanya's fate, felt more to me like a "so yeah that happened" kind of internet-poisoned reaction from someone who is too dissociated from their own self to experience life

Jack told her the mob would kill her if she didn't butt out and get her ass out of Sicily! That's a little more than "advice."

great post jord

xp was he that explicit? i felt like he more so danced around it… but i may be misremembering. i would’ve been like “well idk my computer and electric toothbrush are back at the hotel.” but i guess that would explain why we see portia in a ridiculous disguise at the airport

I wonder if Lucia actually had feelings for Albie, and/or was considering the move to L.A.... her facial expressions (when no one was looking but the camera) seemed to communicate that, to me. But we really just see her carefree and "NO RAGRETS"–looking at the end

was he that explicit? i felt like he more so danced around it

He danced around it, but I thought the implication was clear.

i guess i would’ve gotten murdered

I liked seeing the twinges of uncertainty/regret on the part of the conspirators (or at least "regret" for Matteo, the guy in tears back at the villa)... this seemed to be the first time they did something like this (maybe?), and they were committed to it, but not totally prepared for what it would be like to carry it out. Don't think I've seen quite the same thing before - usually murderers in shows/movies are either hardened/coldblooded, or bumbling amateurs clearly in over their heads.

^^ same true for Jack The Hustler. It would be easy to make him cold-blooded and ready for violence, but this took a more nuanced and credible route.

ultimately I enjoyed watching this show but I am not sure I can say I was moved by anyone’s fate…though I can appreciate that in a way the prestige TV empty calories are an apt meta-commentary on the show’s own ostensible ambitions to skewer the moneyed and boring

I may need to watch the last 20 minutes again, because I’m having trouble parsing the ethan/harper denouement, whose relationship to me felt the most relatable and potentially fertile for critical reflection. I don’t quite understand what happened there

I thought this was imperioli’s best episode btw, the pathos of his response to albie’s request for money was so knowing and devastating, seeing the most pathetic version of himself in his son… tough stuff

honestly felt nothing for cameron and his wife, the hookers, or tanya. was glad to see her eat it tbh

Portia's lack of self-preservation instinct in the final episode certainly seemed to bespeak a level of dissociation on her part. I was just like 'what.......are you doing rn' pretty much every time she did (or, more often, didn't do) anything as red flags madly popped up all around her.

I was kinda bored with the yuppie quartet by the end, but I thought their storyline wrapped up well (I thought "what happened between each of them" was pretty clear, but I have also seen elsewhere that it is apparently ambiguous to others).

xpost Ethan and Harper basically became Cameron and Daphne is how I read it.

her facial expressions (when no one was looking but the camera) seemed to communicate that, to me. But we really just see her carefree and "NO RAGRETS"–looking at the end

I think that's right -- a big theme of the show is that people do, at times, authentically consider embarking on a project of actually caring about another human being, but then without exception abandon the idea as not being in their interests

xpost Ethan and Harper basically became Cameron and Daphne is how I read it.

― Beautiful Bean Footage Fetishist (Old Lunch), Monday, December 12, 2022 2:52 PM (thirty-three seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

hmm, corrupted by their newfound wealth, I can buy it

Ethan and Harper basically became Cameron and Daphne is how I read it.

Fully agree with this and am surprised at how many people on Twitter see this as a happy outcome

That was the biggest problem I had, I really liked their plotline then it's supposed to be oh cool we fucked again one time everything is cool

Yeah - even if someone doesn't see the infidelity angle as fundamentally dark (no judgment, I guess) – if Ethan isn't fundamentally attracted to Harper, this isn't going to "fix" that

have you guys ever had make up sex before? you might see that reflected in the arc of ethan and harper. i took their cuddling in the airport lounge to mean that they made it out the other side of this tumultuous vacation as being confident in themselves not being daphne and cameron while still taking some of daphne's advice that part of being in a relationship involves making peace with the unknown. i feel like cameron and harper are healthier and more wise because of daphne, while also not being mired in the silent toxicity that exists between daphne and cameron. but i may be projecting.

if you listen to mike white speak about the show, it doesn't seem like he has concrete opinions on his characters, especially what happens to them off screen or "after" the show. i think he's as likely to tell you that they get back to america and their relationship eventually crumbles as he is to tell you that they have a "happy" outcome

i personally took lucia looking back at albie in bed as her expressing pity and perhaps some regret, but not longing. but i also like this as an overarching thesis

a big theme of the show is that people do, at times, authentically consider embarking on a project of actually caring about another human being, but then without exception abandon the idea as not being in their interests

To me, the Ethan/Harper relationship plotline seemed to rehash key elements of Eyes Wide Shut (the Kubrick movie) – but with actual infidelity, and in a way that is less interesting/nuanced (despite having six episodes to explore it).

also want to second that imperioli is amazing in this show, and in that scene w/ albi over lunch. the way he says "no, it means nothing to you" when albi tells him that $50,000 is meaningless to him. there's also a scene a few episodes prior where he talks to his father about infidelity and tells him that he didn't hide it the way that he thought and that it ruined his own ability to have healthy relationships w/ women that i thought was similarly great

I can’t think of a more devastating piece of dark comedy than Tanya “missing the boat” and falling in after wiping out her attackers

right after she tells herself "you got this!"

To me, the Ethan/Harper relationship plotline seemed to rehash key elements of Eyes Wide Shut (the Kubrick movie) – but with [show hidden text] and in a way that is less interesting/nuanced (despite having six episodes to explore it).

― Wet Legume (morrisp), Monday, December 12, 2022 3:12 PM (two minutes ago)

this exact comparison was made in the variety review of the episode. i haven't seen eyes wide shut but i do think that harper becomes really one note half way thru the season, we see aubrey plaza w/ a permanently ashen face for the final 3 or so episodes in a way that feels like it neutered her as an actor. tho i did think their argument in the hotel in the final episode was a well written and well acted fight of that sort.

in the end, i do think that daphne was the key character in the season for me. the way in which she advertises that ignorance is bliss, except she isn't that ignorant, nor is she that blissful, instead she's having a constant internal negotiation about how to find happiness on her own terms w/in her marriage. that felt nuanced and real to me. i think she is the only character in this season that actually provides any explicit wisdom to those around her, while nonetheless being viewed as a no thoughts head empty trophy wife

i was okay w/ harper and ethan as more or less a device for the far more interesting relationship between cameron and daphne (sorry finishing my thought)

Yeah, Daphne was pretty amazing overall (I'll look up that Variety review, thx)

Wow - this reviewer doesn't even sound convinced that "the gays" were actually planning to murder Tanya! It's remarkable how even basic plot elements in this show seem to be ambiguous for many viewers.

Who among us does not have a go bag filled with rope and duct tape and a loaded pistol, because you just never know

Double yuppie adultery -- ambiguous
The gays / the husband actually planning to murder Tanya -- non-ambiguous
the husband planning to murder Tanya starting in season 1 -- ambiguous

it's funny, one thing i have been ruminating on is what intentions they really did have for her. because she becomes convinced that she is going to be murdered, and because we know that a body is eventually found in the water, we get led to believe that the murder will happen in a specific and obvious way, w/ the mob guy taking her off in his skiff and dumping her body overboard. but when she steals his bag she finds a rope and duct tape, which would imply less a quick mob hit and instead some sort of kidnapping. so i think it is ambiguous! tanya is prob not a reliable narrator even of things that may be happening right in front of her face

I also wondered what the exact plan was - if she needs to be found dead for purposes of the prenup/will, how would they arrange for her body to be discovered, etc.

The guys played up the foreboding comments so heavily ("Would you die for this kind of beauty?"... "So nice to make a new friend late in life... er, that's just a French idiom!"), I almost thought there'd be a wacky reversal and it would all turn out to have been a wink-at-the-viewer misunderstanding.

xp j0rdan - interesting…I felt the complete opposite, I found ethan and harper to be recognizable as a couple who seems like they have everything figured out but have no actual conduit to communicate through difficult challenges, with cameron/daphne as their foil. cameron in particular seemed a bit underdeveloped to me. which is I think why the “make up sex” felt unearned to me, to answer your previous question I’ve been in relationships where make up sex has “worked” (obviously being doomed) but it’s been in the context of relationships that had a shared sexual currency that ethan/harper just didn’tpp seem to have…I don’t know, it didn’t seem add up for me

Ethan and Harper basically became Cameron and Daphne is how I read it.

Fully agree with this and am surprised at how many people on Twitter see this as a happy outcome

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, December 12, 2022 2:00 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, I don't see this at all. Cameron and Daphne have this cheery sex-having relationship that's a layer over this dramatic see-saw where they're constantly balancing against the indiscretions of the other, perceived or otherwise.

Ethan and Harper seemed like they were almost looking for something dramatic to flare up to push them into communicating. In the end, neither one felt comfortable with any of the drama and they're like oh wait we can just have sex, we're married

I dispute that Ethan and Harper are actually shown to communicate any more than they had been, unless fucking counts as communicating (I recognize there is a case for this)

maybe communicate is the wrong word, but the channel between them in their relationship is blocked and it's just this constant series of events during the season where they're fumbling through as the log jam piles up. sometimes acknowledging that stoppage is enough

I thought there was a nice parallel between the implied hook-ups, the motivations, and the results.

Cameron/Harper (maybe) hook-up for unhealthy reasons... Cameron as an expression of his mimetic desire, and Harper out of spite in response to Ethan's sexual reticence.

Ethan/Daphne (maybe) hook-up for other reasons... Daphne does it as a quid-pro-quo expression of her own freedom within her relationship (despite having no control over Cameron's behaviour), Ethan does it almost to remind himself of his sexuality (and in doing so effectively proves Harper's previous point, that whatever happened between Cameron/Harper was meaningless, so Ethan can feel the same meaninglessness in a hook-up with Daphne).

So Greg doesn't even have to share the cash with Quentin & co! Maybe he could buy a White Lotus

I do feel as if Greg/Quentin's original plan was to try and get Tanya to overdose on drugs at the party. It doesn't make a tonne of sense as to why they'd be so kind/welcoming to her, celebrating her, etc. Tanya even says "I haven't done [cocaine] in a long time". It seemed like it must've been their Plan A, especially if their Plan B was so grisly (and didn't require any of the preceding obsequiousness)

i guess the red light in the background wasn't a camera filming her after all (that seemed pretty stupid TBH, like there would be giant flashing red light from a hidden camera).

I tip my hat to Mike White for keeping me 90%-sure over the last few episodes that Lucia wasn't playing Albie, and Alessio was in-fact a dangerous force. It wasn't until Albie admits to Portia that "he got played" that I finally accepted it

light could just as likely been a smoke detector.

Or a coke detector!

So Greg doesn't even have to share the cash with Quentin & co! Maybe he could buy a White Lotus

I'm not sure Greg is off the hook... if there's a real investigation, they'll probably find phone records etc. linking him to those guys.

lol what are they going to investigate, all the dudes got shot and Tanya’s floating around. some lady snapped and killed a bunch of people

I guess if the local police are extremely uninquisitive, and they don't find the aforementioned "go bag" contents and start connecting the dots (or the boat captain consipires to hide evidence or lie about the night's events), and the involvement of a supposed mafia guy doesn't raise questions, and Matteo maintains omerta when questioned (etc.)... then yes, maybe they'll conclude a rich tourist just ended up with these guys, grabbed a gun they happened to have for their own innocent purposes (or procured one locally, but let the mafia guy handle it to get his fingerprints on it), and killed them all.

(to be fair, I guess the boat captain doesn't have to lie; he could just say what he knows/saw and it wouldn't necessarily implicate the guys)

local cops in italy are not exactly known for asking a lot of questions about mafia guys lol

So why did they go to such elaborate lengths, rather than just have the guy walk up and shoot her in the head somewhere? I assume they didn't want it to look like she was targeted, as it would implicate Greg; and now it does look like a botched kidnapping / possible attempted murder. I agree, though, justice may not be served!

if you watch the little segment after the show w/ mike white he says that he isn’t sure greg gets away with it because all the murders probably trigger an investigation. but it’s clear he doesn’t claim ownership over his characters’ stories so i don’t think he’d disagree with the idea that the italian police are intentionally or unintentionally ineffective

i think if cops in any country came across three dead guys on a boat, a dead woman in the water, and a living boat captain their first thought would not be “well the woman rampage murdered all these guys and then threw herself off the boat and died.” but i also don’t think sicilian police would be able to, or would bother, to connect it back to greg via quentin, so he probably committed the perfect crime! (setting up his extremely wealthy wife to be killed but then she murders all his co-conspirators and then dies herself leaving him w/ an unimaginable sum of money)

The guy living in a palazzo has an absurdly romantic and ornate murder plot

Was the other body on the beach the guy who jumped off the boat and tried to swim? Actually, even after seeing that scene from the beginning again at the end, I’m still not clear on whether there was another body or not(?)

No other body afaik just the ones on the boat

Ah ok

I think that's right -- a big theme of the show is that people do, at times, authentically consider embarking on a project of actually caring about another human being, but then without exception abandon the idea as not being in their interests

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, December 12, 2022 2:52 PM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

i really love this!

and if you were going to locate an exception (in this season) it would be albie and his dad wiring lucia 50k euros to rescue her from duress she had invented out of whole cloth in order to scam them

and even then you could argue that for imperioli’s character it was a transaction for his benefit, “karmically” or directly as a negotiating chip with albie. so maybe the only person who truly cares for another person is the overly woke rich white kid trying to acknowledge and shed his privilege who ends up as the biggest sucker in the whole show. which is pretty funny

ty cad!

i think albie did care for lucia in some sense (he had a pretty great 3 days if nothing else) but also the stakes for him were incredibly low. take some of dad's money, 5% chance he's actually saved a heroine in distress, and he probably does want his parents to be together.

the cops in italy would probably find some way to blame this on Portia, if history is anything to go by

lol that’s true. good thing she got on that plane! (presumably)

Interesting item on a few deleted Valentina scenes

Prefacing by saying that I really enjoy this show, but I definitely find it succumbs to stereotypes about the host countries (I know that Hawaii is not legally a country). Season one: credulous, good-natured, poor locals are royally screwed by the Americans, because that's what happens to Hawaiians, right? Season two: canny, scheming locals royally screw the Americans, because that's what Sicilians do, right? (I am extending "Sicilians" here to incorporate people from other countries who take advantage of Italy's famously lax attitude to crimes committed by wealthy white men.)

In season three a group of dreadful white Americans come to Ashford Castle in Ireland to fish and play golf. They become embroiled in a centuries' old family row about a field, and everything is resolved with a feed of pints and a huge céilí, during which the Americans discover their gold is missing.

So why did they go to such elaborate lengths, rather than just have the guy walk up and shoot her in the head somewhere? I assume they didn't want it to look like she was targeted, as it would implicate Greg; and now it does look like a botched kidnapping / possible attempted murder. I agree, though, justice may not be served!

I assume it was because their pre nup had an adultery clause so if she committed it Greg would get a bunch of $$$, which he would presumably share with Yacht Guys

the more you all speculate about everyone's future, the more I like the idea of a White Lotus universe of spin offs and backstories

^^ Three-camera sitcom about Imperioli’s home life in L.A.

xp seems the affair was only to make her comfortable with her eventual assassin and to give her a last hurrah. Most of the work they put in went toward seasoning the chamber of their own conscience. They wanted to feel ok about killing Tanya.

Prefacing by saying that I really enjoy this show, but I definitely find it succumbs to stereotypes about the host countries (I know that Hawaii is not legally a country).

This sounds right... but of course it also plays off stereotypes of rich Americans! I've seen ppl mentioning The Love Boat and Fantasy Island as precedents; I've never really watched either show, but I feel like it may be tweaking a certain kind of "exotic travelogue" soap genre?

Mike White talks a bit about his time in Hawaii and the stereotypes plus predecessor shows (incl the influence of Survivor on White Lotus) in this Fresh Air interview

Thx, I'm gonna check that out... White seems to do a lot of talking about the show! (I was reading his Wikipedia page, didn't know much about him... interesting family background and "résumé")

I haven't been able to watch the finale yet, I am typing this with my eyes closed

The Fresh Air interview was interesting and intense.

It's also clear from the interview that the murder-mystery framework stemmed from Enlightened being under the radar and relatively short-lived. As he says at the interview's end:

as long as someone's dead in the opening scene, I can do whatever I want.

brilliant.

the more you all speculate about everyone's future, the more I like the idea of a White Lotus universe of spin offs and backstories

totally want to see a 70s tv-style crossover with Shiv and Tom from Succession checking in to a White Lotus for the week

shame this never happened

White — who created one of the canonical Best TV Shows You Missed, Enlightened with Laura Dern — had first conceived of a different star vehicle for Coolidge called Saint Patsy. It was going to be a “paranoid road comedy” in which she would play an underappreciated actress who gets a call that she’s receiving a lifetime-achievement award from an obscure film festival in Sri Lanka but spirals when she comes to believe the award is an elaborate ruse concocted by her ex-boyfriend in an attempt to kill her. “Honestly, it’s the best thing I’ve ever written,” White says. “If someone made this show, it would blow people’s minds. Just think of Jennifer getting bitten by a snake in the Indian Ocean and running for her life.”

It's also clear from the interview that the murder-mystery framework stemmed from Enlightened being under the radar and relatively short-lived.

Kinda assumed this, really. The whole 'who died?!?' thing was the least interesting element of either season afaic.

Also, if any of y'all haven't seen Enlightened, get on it. Probably still comfortably in my top five shows of the 21st Century.

enlightened is a great show

the "who shot j.r.?" thing def always felt like a gimmick

^^ Three-camera sitcom about Imperioli’s home life in L.A.

"I told you, I'm taking the car today!"

I was a little disappointed his wife didn’t seem to be Dern in the family photos they showed

“Dad, can I have 20 bucks?” (winks)

I was a little disappointed his wife didn’t seem to be Dern in the family photos they showed

― Wet Legume (morrisp), Tuesday, December 13, 2022 1:14 PM

Or Adrianna (Drea de Matteo).

I'll have to check out Enlightened... my wife isn't a Dern fan (for whatever reason), so it may be a tough sell in this house.

I watched the pilot of that show The Bold Type, b/c it has the Daphne actress – it wasn't very good. Then I saw it had five seasons(!)... maybe it gets better? (In the pilot, she was having a workplace romance with the guy who played Joan's abusive husband on Mad Men... which was an add'l level of bad vibes)

hopefully laura dern shows up in season 3

i imagine that's why she wasn't in the pic - possibility of future casting

xxp I've seen all of The Bold Type, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. There are some charming moments, but it's ultimately pretty silly.

It seemed kinda like Ugly Betty, without... the stuff that made that show great

I completely concede I've resisted this show for totally shallow reasons, but my wife started season 2 (she didn't watch season 1) and the episode I saw was not bad. You heard it here first.

Omg

It was just pointed out to me that the would-be massage entrepreneur from Season One, the one Tanya fucked over, her name is (thy hand) Belinda

I’d like to rewatch S1, I don’t remember it very well (except a particularly… extreme moment that is burned into my brain)

I'm 3 episodes in to Season 2 and I was hoping it would go in a much more gay direction, but probably not

Stay tuned.

Mike White: bury your gays

I'm glad I was pressured into watching this, it's like a cross between Antonioni, Shakespeare and "Three's Company"/"Love Boat."

I like that assessment, ha ha

and peppa pig

So why did they go to such elaborate lengths, rather than just have the guy walk up and shoot her in the head somewhere? I assume they didn't want it to look like she was targeted, as it would implicate Greg; and now it does look like a botched kidnapping / possible attempted murder. I agree, though, justice may not be served!

I assume it was because their pre nup had an adultery clause so if she committed it Greg would get a bunch of $$$, which he would presumably share with Yacht Guys

― a (waterface), Tuesday, December 13, 2022 7:15 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I was also convinced that the adultery was the main thing, and that it must have been recorded. It was still left ambiguous, when Coolidge is on the phone with Portia talking about the prenup and saying "He gets nothing...unless...?!"

Maybe it's both? They need the adultery clause for the prenup, but also need to get rid of her so she doesn't contradict their story?

Also I was very glad that piano guy didn't murder anybody.

When they got on the yacht, I assumed they were going to throw her overboard and make it look like an accident.

Yeah, "He gets nothing ... unless I die." He gun, rope, duct tape were contingency planning, and he seems to always carry a gun anyway.

The more I think about an adultery clause, the less likely it seems like it would exist. Why would Tanya agree to that?

*The* gun ...

Oh I forgot she actually said "unless I die", lol. Tbh an adultery clause sounds more plausible to me than a death clause, the former being under Tanya's control (and she's a romantic), and the latter just encouraging murder.

I just skip the intro myself, but this thread seems potentially insightful:

I know I’m late on this but the White Lotus intro tells us exactly who everyone is and their whole arc.

See: F. Murray Abraham plays a man who ruined lives by not noticing that his wife is aware of his infidelity pic.twitter.com/c2zTJPhdTI

— Leila B (@leilaclaire) December 14, 2022

(I agree w/Jordan, btw... I don't know much about prenups, but I would think they don't typically contemplate death of one of the parties, which would be better handled in a will?)

I don’t really know how prenups work but I imagine the “death clause” is just the usual way things work for a surviving spouse?

Doesn't the spouse automatically get the deceased's assets, unless it's stated in her will otherwise? That wouldn't be part of the prenup, I don't think.

Prenups are for if a divorce happens.

Did Tanya have any other family/heirs etc.? I don't recall how much of her background is mentioned in the first season.

I think you guys are overthinking this.

If they divorce, the prenup is enforced and Greg gets nothing.

If Tanya dies, the prenup is void and Greg inherits her money.

if they *were* planning to kill her why didn't they just kill her vs. what they did which is get her drugged up and fucking some Italian dude

adultery clause, proof on tape--Greg gets $

to go to all the trouble of wining and dining her and then killing her????

Doesn't the spouse automatically get the deceased's assets, unless it's stated in her will otherwise? That wouldn't be part of the prenup, I don't think.

― nickn, Thursday, December 15, 2022 12:53 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) b

right, that’s what I meant

They needed for it to look like an accident. Getting her comfortable with the guy who would later kill her was necessary.

quentin seemed like the type of guy who needed to give her a beautiful sendoff and have the killing done out of sight to keep his conscience clear

wait wait never mind reddit to the rescue

In most US states including California and Colorado, infidelity clauses in prenup agreements are unenforceable. Most states except maybe 4 are No Fault Divorce states so adultery wouldn't matter, even in a prenup. At most it would allow, in this Greg / Tanya scenario, for Tanya to have to pay some alimony. But it wouldn't be much due to their short marriage.

PLUS as you pointed out Tanya's very expensive lawyers could establish Tanya was set-up, isolated and drugged. Greg couldn't afford to defend against that. This is why I would think they plan to kill her. Or, Greg isn't involved, maybe his cancer returned and that is what Tanya was clueless about, and a jealous Quentin plans to blackmail Tanya by threatening to give the sex tape to Greg.

I do think the ending was great and satisfying fwiw

PLUS as you pointed out Tanya's very expensive lawyers could establish Tanya was set-up, isolated and drugged. Greg couldn't afford to defend against that.

I've thought about this angle – but it would rely on Tanya having other heirs to hire such lawyers (to represent her/their interest). No one's gonna do it pro bono...

Well, I guess we'll know how the case went when her heirs turn up at the White Lotus in season three.

Finally caught up to this and loved it. Re Jack’s phone: face ID while he slept. And I’m guessing Imperioli will be the carryover to S3 - enough wealth to be a regular WL guest, fucked up enough to hang a plot around. (Even if I wish it was Lucia for shameful reasons.)

Face ID while he slept? They were eating, he got up and left it on the ta—(don’t make me mention the phone!!)

Idiot me. But he might have it set to wait five minutes before locking, would suit his normal life.

Oh, if that's a thing, then I'm satisfied!

Yep, that’s what mine is set to.

I mean, just get her coked to the gills on the boat and push her into the water. Done!

I thought this was really good, much better than I expected. Direction, writing, acting, casting, score ... all on point, even the "Risky Business"-redux subplot. I've not seen the first season, so I'm curious what it will be like going in reverse, given the general consensus is that season one is better (right?).

I liked S2 better, and it seemed to get more cultural “buzz” (or maybe I’m just attuned to it). I know several folks who won’t give S2 a chance, bc they hated S1… one such guy told me over the weekend, “I didn’t like any of the characters, the show felt cynical,” etc.

Interesting. I thought that that was sort of what I would get from this one - rich people being assholes, shallow/cynical/lazy satire - but it was more complex, or at least more compelling, than I expected, and the targets not as obvious as I expected, either. I mentioned to my wife that yeah, a lot of the leads are rich, but that only sort of passively informs their behavior. With the exception of Jennifer Coolidge, maybe, I could see a lot of the show play out the same way if it was scaled down and set somewhere else less luxurious* (though it might have been less pretty to look at). Is the first season also directed like a horror film? Because along those lines, *another* film this reminded me of was "Eyes Wide Shut." Kind if a dark night of the soul story stretched out over a season, upper class escapism shot through with suspense and queasy, seasick menace.

*Like Fargo/"Fargo"

i couldn't get into s1 and probably wouldn't have watched all of s2 if my wife hadn't been into finishing it. there's lots of stuff i like in the show, but as a satire it mostly feels facile. the cravenness of the wealthy and men being driven by their dicks are pretty easy targets, especially when your characters are mostly cartoons.

that being said i enjoyed the daphne/harper/ethan/cameron plotline. fahy is amazing and the morality of the relationships was a lot more ambiguous than in the rest of the show.

See, to me it doesn't play like a facile satire with cardboard-cutout characters – even though it seems like it should!! – which is the super impressive thing to me about the show (and I've probably said it too many times here already). But I can understand how it may hit others differently.

I also think a great "trick" it pulls off is making the characters sympathetic, even though they're not likeable (in the sense that you probably wouldn't want to hang out with any of them... at least for very long!).

That said, I have seen folks online stanning the character of Daphne in a certain way – e.g., "My life goal is to be as unbothered as Daphne" – which I think is interesting. She's kind of a fascinating character, but I don't think her particular life ethic is one to be "emulated"(!)

i thought season 1's characters were much richer and better-defined than season 2–especially jennifer coolidge as tanya–tho season 2 was more fun

see, I didn't see the show as satire at all. that would have been the easy route. again, don't know about season 1, but this season was about sexual dynamics, sexual power, sex as currency, in lots of different ways shapes and forms. Plus the moral ambiguity of deception.

quick question, because I wasn't really following this thread. what's the deal with them visiting their purported ancestors and getting run out of the house? what did I miss there?

no and by the end it was unclear how much of a victim daphne even was ... her marriage with cameron ultimately seemed like an ongoing battle for dominance/power that both of them were kind of into

Speaking of Daphne, who as she is written and played is a lot more complicated than many of the characters, was that a Freudian slip or intentional when she showed a picture of her kids to Harper when she meant to show a picture of her trainer/"trainer"?

She was telling Harper that her trainer was the father of one of her kids, which doesn't make sense for her to do, but was a dramatic moment.

From the way she said "oops" when Harper said this is a pic of your kids, i thought it was clear that she had done it purposefully.

I thought it was purposeful too based on her oops, but wasn't sure. I also wasn't sure about the revelation, does she actually outright say he's a father of her kids? because that's a pretty extreme secret to tell someone, let alone keep. I thought her ambiguity throughout the show wa one of its best attributes.

what's the deal with them visiting their purported ancestors and getting run out of the house? what did I miss there?

More than a specific plot point, I took it as showing that the men in past generations of the family were no better than the current ones, and that the men weren’t welcome for that reason. And to be kind of heartbreaking for the F. Murray Abraham.

Also holds true to the idea that Sicily, away from the tourism venues and cafes, isn’t necessarily a friendly and welcoming place. I loved the scene, and almost don’t want to find out who played those women.

xp Wow, I didn't even consider that angle. I thought she was saying, "Here's why I stay with Cameron, and do what I have to do to be OK with the way our relationship is... it's for the kids."

(i.e., I didn't think there really was a "trainer"... I thought she was saying that her kid is the one she spends so much time with, knows better than her husband, etc... or whatever her specific words were.)

xxp I thought the scene was great, as was the odd phrase iirc "pretty money." that almost scans like an intentional mistranslation, is that supposed to mean their bodies? like, you asshole men took advantage of us once and left, I'm not going to let it happen again, you won't get our pretty money this time.

xxp

No, she doesn't outright say it, but pretty clearly implies it. Which, agreed is a ridiculously big secret to share with someone you don't know for no particular reason. She could have just said I have a hot trainer, we fuck sometimes.
But I guess that is part of her ambiguous character, is she impetuous or is she plotting something?

tbh i missed the implications of this too but i do think mizzell is correct, bc daphne says something about the trainer having blue eyes before showing the picture of her kids, one of which has blue eyes iirc

Right, but I thought the implication was she was "actually" talking about her kid (sort of in code)... the other implication would indeed be a huge thing both to happen and to reveal to a stranger (as mentioned), but I guess it is possible!

" as a satire it mostly feels facile" that's because it's not a satire

My impression of that scene was that she was reminding Harper of her kids and was basically saying "we can skirt around this topic but don't you dare say or do anything that would obligate me to blow up my marriage." As long as all the indiscretions aren't said out loud, their arrangement works, but if it's out in the open they can't keep up appearances.

the kids/trainer thing is, I believe, just purposefully ambiguous. I'm not sure Mike White knows what the answer is there.

really don't want to get into a discussion about what constitutes satire but i am morbidly curious about people who see this as a realistic, grounded depiction of the lives of the wealthy

Triangle of Sadness is a satire. this is just a story. there's exaggeration, particularly with Tanya's character, but otherwise it doesn't really 'satirize' anything IMO.

but i am morbidly curious about people who see this as a realistic, grounded depiction of the lives of the wealthy

― na (NA), Monday, December 19, 2022 11:14 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

is Bourne Identity a realistic, grounded depiction of the lives of CIA agents? is it satire?

pgwp totally otm re: my interpretation of that scene (fwiw)

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/02/the-brilliant-biting-social-satire-of-the-white-lotus
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/aug/02/the-white-lotus-hbo-mike-white
https://www.slantmagazine.com/tv/the-white-lotus-season-two-review/
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/10/1013361477/the-white-lotus-hbo-hawaiian-resort-mike-white
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2022/10/26/triangle-of-sadness-menu-white-lotus-wealth-satire/10596224002/

etc etc
now you say that the new yorker and npr don't know what satire is either
then i say "ok dudes" and stop posting about it

Oh

I don't think the paternity of Daphne's oldest is actually known by anyone. I think Daphne suspects that the child is the product of an affair with her trainer. I think Daphne takes some spiteful pleasure, in the face of Cameron's flagrant philandering, in entertaining this possibility.

There was a scene in one of the last episodes, too, where Cameron is flossing and Daphne is calling him to come say hello to their kids on FaceTime. Cameron has this look of simmering resentment on his face as he dutifully finishes his flossing before going to say hi to his kids. The way his demeanour shifted telegraphed, to me, that Cameron, too, has either a conscious or subconscious suspicion about the biological parentage of (at least) his oldest child with Daphne.

Also I posted upthread that one of the things I like about Mike White's writing is that a lot of the "did they? or didn't they?" questions are kind of moot... it's the possibility that "they could've" that has the effect on the characters. It doesn't matter whether or not Harper and Cameron hooked up, the effect is the same. It doesn't matter whether or not Ethan and Daphne hooked up, the effect is the same.

I feel like the trainer moment is another one of these things. It doesn't matter (to us, or to Daphne) whether or not Cameron or Daphne's trainer is the bio-father of her oldest. The effect is the same... Daphne feels powerful in knowing that it is a possibility, and Cameron feels punished in knowing that it is a possibility

Before the finale, I thought Daphne might have killed everyone. Pushed Ethan from the edge, etc. Credits roll to Billy Joel's "The Stranger."

Maybe she did and the airport is purgatory. #lost

The kid reveal seemed like a way to rapidly escalate intimacy between Harper and Daphne, whether for personal or plot purposes I’m not entirely sure.

one of the things I like about Mike White's writing is that a lot of the "did they? or didn't they?" questions are kind of moot... it's the possibility that "they could've" that has the effect on the characters.

Fully agree with this though I do wonder whether part of the appeal of this read for me is that it elevates me above the normies arguing about whether they did or didn't

almost don’t want to find out who played those women

ideally it's Michael Imperioli's actual grandma and that's really how she feels

I thought that that was sort of what I would get from this one - rich people being assholes, shallow/cynical/lazy satire

Neither shallow nor lazy but it is indeed extremely cynical

it was unclear how much of a victim daphne even was ... her marriage with cameron ultimately seemed like an ongoing battle for dominance/power that both of them were kind of into

An instance of the cynicism is that the show really leans into the idea, not merely that this approach kind of works for daphne and cameron, but that there is actually no alternative and this what marriage actually consists of if you can bear to look straight at it.

I just don't think that's true, and that's my major problem with the show!

I generally don't like when shows/movies have hidden but crucial plot points, that the viewer is supposed to sleuth out as a key to fully understanding the show (as if appreciating narrative art is just a matter of "cracking a code")... so I think I naturally resist believing that such a thing is operative in a show I like... but part of the reason may also just be that I'm really bad at "catching" that stuff to begin with!

xp

An instance of the cynicism is that the show really leans into the idea, not merely that this approach kind of works for daphne and cameron, but that there is actually no alternative and this what marriage actually consists of if you can bear to look straight at it.

That's interesting, I don't think I agree that the show conveys or "endorses" this message... I'm not sure I think it really has an "ethic" at all (which may be why it doesn't seem cynical to me); but maybe it's another case of the above; i.e., not thinking too deeply about an angle I would naturally cringe away from.

I don't think the experiences of these characters are meant to be universalized – beyond maybe the fact that all people are flawed in certain ways (though hopefully not as much as some of these characters!)? And that gets to why the show feels like it's doing something more than just "satirizing rich tourists," or whatever – it's touching more deeply on "relatable" aspects of character flaws, relationship issues, commitment, compromises (and whatever else) that the viewer can identify with, while also being entertained and comforted by the fact that your life isn't THAT f'd up (hopefully!)

An instance of the cynicism is that the show really leans into the idea, not merely that this approach kind of works for daphne and cameron, but that there is actually no alternative and this what marriage actually consists of if you can bear to look straight at it.

i don't agree with that, it also presents the alternatives that marriage can be about the husband cheating on the wife but the wife not cheating on the husband, or it can be about the husband having the wife murdered

I don't think Daphne was "into" Cameron's actual philandering in the slightest. They could joke about it, and make it sexy, but I think the actual fact of Cameron's routine (and obvious) sleeping around was something that made Daphne feel powerless. Daphne regains her feeling of power within the relationship with whatever works-- night away at the villa with Harper, maybe-fucking Ethan, maybe-fucking-and-having-the-baby-of the trainer.

It's funny, when considering that "infidelity" is the crux of the drama between DaphneCameronHarperEthan, that Tanya's last words to Quentin were "...is Greg having an affair?" As if infidelity is more of a preoccupation for one of Mike White's characters than, say, being the target of a murder conspiracy

otm, also upthread about that flossing scene before Cameron puts on his happy face to come talk to their kids.

xpost I found that strangely sad and touching, the way she went there after gunning down all these scheming evildoers.

I think even the cynical elements of the show are often ambiguous, since even at their most transactional a lot of the relationships are nonetheless built around a certain degree/kind of affection and understanding or even respect and honesty, which is partly what makes many of the characters so oddly sympathetic (even at their most pathetic). I brought up Shakespeare, and while the show (thankfully) is too unpretentious to make the nods explicit, it shares more than a few elements of plays like "A Midsummer Night's Dream." It's like all these people have gathered in this one place and been put under a spell, with a "did it all really happen?" haze hanging over them at the airport the next morning. It's not a coincidence (probably) that the one plotline to get a clear, definitive resolution (Tanya) is the one that transpired away from the fantastical pull of the hotel/resort.

Yeah, S1 played out a bit… differently in several of those respects (which may be why it came off as more cynical to some)

Nicely put, Josh

the most unbelievable aspect of jack's phone isn't that he would leave it unlocked on the table, it's that he wouldn't have taken it with him to doomscroll while shitting. sitting on the shitter is prime phone time, come on.

but he doesn't have social media

hah, touche. maybe it was a burner mafia phone!

while i'm nitpicking, i found it strange that everybody seemingly ate at the hotel restaurant breakfast, lunch and dinner (other than the night where tanya peeps portia, and the arancini.) they even joke about knowing the menu front to back. i guess it's convenient for all the 'chance' encounters that drive the plot.

i sort of thought one of the appeals of vacationing in italy was, well, you know, italian food.

Both seasons have emphasised the tourists’ fear/disdain of the local culture, they want the bubble experience. Even the visit to the historic mansion was packaged up with the Godfather car and references.

Also I haven’t thought much about Tanya’s fortune teller experience, but it’s surprising she let herself take such risks after a warning which was clearly credible to her.

If anything, everyone dining at the hotel may be one of the more legit instances of satire: these folks all go to Italy for their reasons, but spend all or most of their time at a resort, a luxury simulacrum of reality. Or more likely maybe it was just all included, which is often why people go to resorts in the first place (Another point in this show's favor is iirc no shots of food porn!)

I can totally imagine Jack not having his screen locked, ever. Or anything else locked, for that matter. Carpe diem, etc.

yeah, but you can maintain the bubble experience while leaving the resort - presumably these people have black cards with concierge service, they're going on vespa rides, renting benzes. there are michelin starred restaurants in sicily.

it was easier to believe in season 1 given how luxurious those suites were, here they had more standard shoe boxes.

These aren’t the only people in the world taking advantage of all-inclusive resorts.

overthinking

I feel like a large part of the show is the writers encountering types of guy in the world and thinking “kind of interesting but this way of living kind of sucks” and then just positing how these types would interact. There’s no high-minded moral judgment or deep satire, just tossing them in a fishbowl. Like the girls in season one being red scare podcast listener types

I think the satire is in the cynicism, just every type of guy (non-gender exclusive they’re all guys) in different annoying ways and letting them play off each other

Yeah, it could be that. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they sort of worked backwards — developed the main story beats, and then sort of fleshed out the characters in a way that fits the setup (but also kind of doing what you said – "What if this guy was like this?"). I think that only b/c some of the character traits seem kind of "extra," or not necessarily what drives the story... they're just part of what makes it feel rich. But this also kind of fits what you're saying.

I mean, a key to HBO’s best shows has been that they are stories that could only take place in a particular location: suburban New Jersey, Baltimore, L.A., etc. And this certainly follows that approach and lives up to that standard.

(continuing my fuzzy thought) I think it feels almost “novelistic”*… like when you can sense a writer taking pleasure in imagining and fleshing out their characters, to fit a story.

As opposed to a tv show like, say, Mad Men, where the action feels largely driven by the characters’ specific traits and motivations (as developed & refined over the seasons).

*NB: I haven’t read a novel in decades

are there "writers"? I haven't read anything BTS about this show (or Enlightened)

mike w says he writes is all alone.

the eating at the white lotus while in sicily is def not realistic and i think supposed to be funny. its like their stuck in this italian purgatory limbo thing. if you're in sicily and you're rich, you're out eating at a lot of places no matter what. cam even says at one point "why the fuck we are we looking at these menus? we know them inside and out." i think that's supposed to be a laff.

one great thing about this show is no one is cool. everyone is a dork. sure they are rich and kind of beautiful, but no one is someone i want to be like or shown to be sexy or a role model. like the opposite of euphoria.

^^ great points

I, too, am skeptical that S2 is best-defined as “satire”— or at least, a satire about wealth and privilege. White seems in this season specifically to be writing more about universal notions of human psychology and desire and insecurity than he is pointing-and-laughing at the foibles of the wealthy. S1’s conflicts (between the spoiled husband and his wife, the spoiled husband and the hotelier, the author and the reporter, the spoiled child and her less-privileged friend) definitely felt like satire to me… S2 had much less of this. The only plot element that really approached “satire” for me was when The Men tried to reconnect with their ancestral relatives and were threatened with an artichoke

in the behind the scenes with mike white after the finale, he said S1 was about money, S2 was about sex, and S3 will be about "death and eastern religion and spirituality"(???)

fgti otm

he says all kinds of things, season 3 will probably be set in a motel 6 in nebraska

In that Fresh Air interview, he says that when he started scouting locations for S2, he thought the season would be about power and status among businessmen, but after finding the resort (and Sicilian art and fables) he pivoted to sex.

Thinking too much about S3 might jinx it, as with True Detective and Sufjan.

he says all kinds of things, season 3 will probably be set in a motel 6 in nebraska

yeah but EASTERN Nebraska

season 3 of the white lotus will finally be the one that focuses on botany

Schitt's Creek but it's White Lotus

I have a friend who is meeting up with a couple of her college friends and, despite protestations, the planner of the trip settled on a fancy hotel in Scottsdale, Arizona where they will be sharing a room, but that room is somehow $1000/night

I’m kind of wondering if she’s been coerced into the Scottsdale White Lotus

I don't know if you've spent a lot of time in Scottsdale but that concept would totally work

I have heard and read enough about Scottsdale that I have no interest in going. Probably not for me

Scottsdale, come off it

these fucking scottsdale mailers i have read e-nough!

Still speculation, but ...

https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/it-looks-like-white-lotus-season-3-will-be-set-in-kyoto/

I am still somewhat haunted by the shot of Tanya dinging her head on the side of the boat

Just finished this last night. I think Mike White should capatalize on the shows popularity by opening a chain of these resorts around the world, except that the package includes participating in an elaborate murder mystery where guests have to figure out who will be murdered on the final night.

What I found irksome about the whole thing with Jack's unattended, unlocked phone is that in the same episode we also had Portia's unattended phone and an unattended sack of murder gear.

Parker Posey feels like an “oh, snap”–perfect new cast member for this show

parker posey + jason isaacs = inject it directly into my veins please & thank u

More new season 3 cast members announced today - Sarah Catherine Hook, Sam Nivola, Patrick Schwarzenegger and Aimee Lou Wood. But they had me at Walton Goggins!

I always get Jason Isaacs confused with Julian Sands (RIP), who would have also worked.

In Harry Potter for sure. In other shoes I get him confused with other people. The internet seems to suggest people confuse him with Jon Hamm but I don't really see that. Maybe a bit of Clive Owen. I'm not sure.

Would have loved to see Meghann Fahy win the Emmy, but can't be mad at Coolidge winning!

The White Lotus drops Miloš Biković after Ukraine accuses actor of supporting Russian invasion

Details of the season are being kept under wraps, but according to Deadline, Biković was expected to play the "small recurring role of Russian Valentin, a flirtatious yogi and the hotel's Life Enhancement Mentor."

they should’ve kept him for a 5 min cameo, then some guest asks “oh, where’s valentin?” “didn’t you know? he got drafted.”

there's a lot of good phone stuff in jurassic park 3 if you're into that

Man, S02 still haunts me

https://rave.dj/Th-8o_w_m9-Dag

Turns out S3 of “Hacks” has a few instances of “phone stuff” that goes above & beyond the “phone stuff” I complained about in this show!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwQRkOK5KC4

Already renewed for a S4 too!

Thoughts on s3e1?

I ain’t got much yet. White really isn’t interested in varying the formula at all. That said, the setup is intriguing enough, as always.

Is it one episode at a time? I saw and liked S2 but still haven't seen S1, should I see S1 before we start S3?

S1 is definitely worth watching

Oh yes, definitely watch s1. While the seasons are relatively self-contained, s3 is already referencing thing from s1, so it might be worth it even for background.

There was a lot of awkward expositional dialogue in the first episode, but the cast seems good.
Schwarzenegger Jr so immediately, viscerally hatable I'm already worried he will be redeemed

I tried S1 of this recently but had to bail. I watched into the third episode because the flat tone of it was intriguing, but that quickly gave way to a sense of 'oh, it is just a bunch of privileged people being awful', which is obviously a time-honoured telly tradition but also, nah.

That's why I didn't watch the first season, but I really liked the second season.

There's an added bonus to the "rich people are awful": the locales are so scrumptiously photographed that you can't help but be wishing your next vacation was at a White Lotus (thus putting the viewer in the sightline of the satire)

I think my issue was that the satire was so thinly spread it didn't feel like satire at all. It felt like rich people porn. Which again, time honoured and all that but my feeling when watching wasn't 'I secretly wish I was there and oh, aren't we awful' but more like Jamie Lee Curtis driving her car into the lounge.

The first season turns a corner about halfway through. IMO

I think the selling point to me is the staff of the resort and the people who have been swept up into the orbit of the moneyed, like last season's plucky assistant and, it seems, the character played by Aimee Lou Wood from Sex Education. I'm already wondering what the deal there is, how she ended up at the resort with Walton Goggins' character, and what that dynamic is going to look like because they both have such unique screen presences

tbh though, I'm just here for the different remixes of the theme song each season

Yeah. The satire stays at a low simmer to make the viewer complicit with the hideous assholes before turning up the heat.

xp

funny to see Christian Friedel from The Zone of Interest and The White Ribbon in this

and Babylon Berlin!

My husband tells me that gay social media is going crazy over the Schwarzenegger (and siblings) stuff.

First episode was remarkably efficient at setting so many things up. Great writing, great cast, great little character beats that tell us just enough but still all we need to know (so far). I was really impressed and, per the "Severance" discussion (#onethread), utterly confident Mike White is going to pull this off (as much as I don't want any sibling incest in this season). Maybe because there is no central mystery in these shows, just a bunch of mysterious stuff surrounding these rich (in both sense) character studies?

Well, and the seasonal murder mystery.

I did feel some sense of diminishing returns from first episode but plenty of time for it to heat up. I was most immediately interested in the Walter Groggins-ALW relationship, and great to have Parker Posey and Jason Isaacs.

xpost Is the murder mystery really central? Like I said, I've only seen S2 but don't recall any real interest in a who-done-it/who-died. I just figured it was a winking hook, like killing Kenny in South Park or ... didn't Six Feet Under (never saw it) start with a weekly death?

But yeah, in terms of the characters, any one of them (at least as of the first episode) is like a ticking time bomb ready to explode into who knows what. I could see each one revealed to be the total opposite of what we think of them. Or, sure, I could also see half of them murdering someone. It's all very clever and sneaky, like a meta Agatha Christie where motives and messed up relationships matter more than any actual murder.

I have nothing to contribute except to say that it's really fun to imitate Parker Posey's accent

Apparently it's her effort to fuse a Southern accent with a snobby mid-Atlantic accent? Def. quirky!

Ha, I guess there is a lot of online talk about her accent and Jason Isaac's accent, and whether they are terrible? Be funny if that became a plot point, I love it when shows and movies do that, though they rarely do it. Like, Cronenberg's "eXistenZ," I remember watching that and wondering what was up with all the off accents, and then it becomes important! Or Ryan Phillippe's Scottish accent in "Gosford Park."

Posey is originally from Mississippi, so she has a natural Southern accent, though it may not be a good North Carolina accent.

Jason Isaacs claims it's the very specific accent of Durham NC

https://www.eonline.com/news/1413614/white-lotus-season-3-jason-isaacs-and-parker-poseys-odd-southern-accents-explained

Eh, if he says so.

I can't say if it's accurate or not, but I did work on a project once with a contractor from North Carolina and that was damn near his exact accent! It was uncanny when I first heard Issacs talk.

Really enjoyed this, but I’m also living though one of the UK’s most dismal Februarys ever, so I’ll take whatever glamour and sun I can.

As ever, everyone except Natasha Rothwell is an asshole and that’s fine, although these assholes feel slightly assholier than Season 2’s. The balance wasn’t quite right for me, but it’s only the first episode, and White is usually skilled at getting the balance right without tipping into punishing nihilism. We’ll see!

I think it was a good move to change the intro setup this time round - a live shooter, rather than a corpse, instantly made things more tense than usual.

Posey’s daughter has a weirdly familiar face but I haven’t seen anything on her IMDB page.

xposts Fun fact, I was born in Durham. I don't have an accent, though, and anything I attempted would be some broad deep south Alabama-y variation on Posey's. Both she and Isaacs are leaning into the Daniel Craig/Col. Sanders in "Knives Out" kind of ham, which is fun. Wonder what legit southerner Goggins thinks of these poseurs, lol.

As ever, everyone except Natasha Rothwell is an asshole and that’s fine, although these assholes feel slightly assholier than Season 2’s.

I agree they maybe seem like bigger assholes than S2, which makes me wonder how or if our perceptions will shift. Carrie Coon, for example, definitely seems cut from a different cloth than her cohort. And Goggins, there seems to be a reason for his grouchiness.

I can't believe how slow I was in twigging who other-girl-at-the-bar's LBH boyfriend was.

Funny how he keeps showing up

The “black lives matter” thing is still the funniest bit the shows ever done.

Taking bets for who the active shooter turns out to be

Isaacs is trying for a specific North Carolina regional accent that I recognize, but he's not quite nailing it (one episode in obv)

Posey is doing something else entirely, with her broad Southern accent and WASPy mannerisms cranked up to 11 by medicated loopiness. When I first heard her I joked "Nobody from NC talks like that, only people from South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, or some parts of Virginia." #narcissismofsmalldifferences lol

Both are recognizable as real types of people that I come into contact with.

I suppose it's conceivable that someone from another southern state could move to North Carolina

The active shooter thing could even be misdirection. It could be security shooting at a tiger, for all we know.

Is the murder mystery really central? Like I said, I've only seen S2 but don't recall any real interest in a who-done-it/who-died.

There's a really good Fresh Air interview with Mike White after season two where he says that basically HBO gives him a ton of freedom as long as he sets up a mystery in the first few minutes. (And after Enlightened was cancelled, I'm sure he was relieved to find a convention that lets him write his kind of relationship stories with a bigger safety net.)

enjoyed the first episode

That Schwarzenegger kid is like junior Patrick Bateman! ugh! such a hateable creep right out of the gate

praying for a non-incest storyline. PRAYING. dnw x 1000

goggins’ guy has sex-tourist/sex-pest written all over him. hope i’m wrong

I got past the potential incest creepy feelings by reminding myself “they’re not actually siblings, they’re actors”

i will try that thx lol

Goggins clearly has some sort of scheme that requires the (American?) husband of the older woman who runs the wellness program, probably thinks he owes him money.

First, I have not seen the new episode yet, but will in a couple of days. But I did see the first couple of episodes of the first season. They're OK. I know I liked the second season a lot though tbh I can't remember what it was I liked about it, but the first episode of the third season seems more much in line with what I've seen so far of the first season.

First, I have not seen the new episode yet

I want to get out ahead of the news cycle and confess that I have not seen it either.

High five. Posted preemptively in the off chance seeing said new ep changed my opinion. But glad to know you're keeping tabs.

I haven’t seen next week’s episode either

I heard it's set in Thailand.

I did finish season one and thought it was good. Great cast, great acting, great writing, great directing. It felt shallower than S2 but it was still pretty sharp, a cynical bedroom farce or jaundiced "Midsummer Night's Dream." Where did they find Murray Bartlett? Between this and "Last of Us" he's had a great couple of HBO showcases.

he was also on HBO’s ‘looking’ which was where i first encountered him

yes! he was great in Looking

I loved Looking so much. I always get excited when I see Looking people in other contexts.

same!

Bartlett also did fine work as a pseudo Richard Simmons in the second season of Physical.

I’d almost forgotten how good Parker Posey is at playing terrible people

she really found her mean person groove in this new ep

telling her kids to be mistrustful of everyone because they're just going to try to scam them is horrible irl parenting but probably good advice in the world of this show!

also nice ah hah moment to see Belinda recognizing Greg, which I should have expected from the first episode but didn't

the interactions btw the three women friends (Coons et al) give me hives & i love it

my theory for this season? monkey with a gun

hear me out: monitor lizard vs monkey shootout

omg the three friends make me so nervous
basically every time one of them speaks it's excruciating

goggins' girlfriend is giving me major shelley duvall vibes (partially her teeth but also just how natural and weird she is)

she was great on Sex Education!

yeah i’m enjoying her a lot

I hope we find out the source of Goggins' angst quickly, the mystery around it is tedious after 2 episodes.

Also, is it normal for so many people to hate being on lavish vacations?

also v curious why the daughter is constantly being dressed like an American Girl doll

xp to Moodles -- i would imagine so, if you are with family and they are dysfunctional it doesn't matter where you are because they are there too.

it may just be that the show just focuses on people with various problems as opposed to all the people on vacation who actually are enjoying themselves, which may not be very interesting from a dramatic perspective

also those three ladies are awkward af and haven't had a single authentic interaction the entire time so far -- that does not seem very enjoyable to me tbh. the bubble will pop at some point, soon i'm sure

Amy was a scene stealer in Sex Education so it's easy to like her.

Agreed re: Goggins, it's getting old.

xpost yeah LL same i want them to just have an airing of grievances & interact as their actual selves! it’s too much like watching poker

You look exactly the same
No you exactly the same
We’re all beautiful and look exactly the same [gulps wine]

(later)
(loud whispering) OMG DID YOU HEAR HER SAY WE LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME? WTF LOOL

it is all my high school nightmare of high status women smiling & saying benign-but-pointed compliments while burning off the top layer of your flesh with their eye lasers

i need a drink

Predicting Goggins is a hit man

parker posey was right to be standoff-ish, leslie bibb is bad news!

oh that scene was magical, so funny

i dont think goggins is a hit man idk why but he seems too casual

i think he’s in a smuggling ring or something like that

idk i think rick was already starting to show cracks in this one...this show always operates at a simmer for a few episodes, i am confident there will be a worthwhile payoff

i do enjoy the vibe of this series, it’s weirdly relaxing somehow. just let the weirdo vibes wash over you

haha for sure, we were talking after this episode about how off-putting the tone of the first part of season 1 was knowing nothing about where it was going, but now it's pure comfort food

totally!

I think Goggins wants something from that woman's husband, make some kind of deal.

Also he's definitely going to have a redemptive arc.

I thought maybe it was his father. Then I thought he killed his father. Something to do with his parents. The way that was discussed in this therapy session made me think there was something there.

And I def think he ends up a good guy or hero. He’s too much of a dick now for that not to be a red herring, and everybody loves groggins.

Speaking of which to promote he just did one of those tours of his house for arch digest on YouTube. Worth watching. Beautiful space

I watched that AD segment and yeah, Goggins has an incredibly cool house.

So many good faces on this show, but for me Fabian (who I always want to call Florian) is the real MVP. His pained expression when the blonde trio told him he should perform his songs at the next dinner show... Transcendent.

I think Goggins is out for vengeance, but obv. we don't know why just yet.

This was a good (relatively) low-key episode. Very elusive, despite all the cringe and latent conflict. Like how Mike White tweaks and shifts his themes and tropes. At first it felt a bit like going back to the same well again (if it ain't broke ...) but I think it's a little more subtle than that. Or maybe that's just because I saw the first season, which is not particularly subtle. This season, so far, seems to be splitting the difference in vibe between the first and second seasons.

it is all my high school nightmare of

Carrie Coon dropped large non-hints about how this escalates in the back half on WTF yesterday

Yeah, I was disappointed to hear her spoiler-ish (sounding!) comments.

I had to look up the actress who plays Chloe to confirm that she's not somehow related to Joan Cusack.

I think it’s ok to admit that this season kind of sucks so far
- goggins has few lines
- incest shocking for its own sake
- cougar infighting uninteresting
- native girl and security guard budding romance is zzz
- too many cuts to monkey
- robbery for no reason

have you guys seen more than two episodes or something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnVf1ZoCJSo

ha, that's exactly what came to mind

I must strongly disagree with the assertion that there are too many cuts to monkey.

someone needs to release the all monkey cut

too much monkey statue, not enough actual monkeys. I think they’re teasing us with a false chekov’s monkey thing

have you guys seen more than two episodes or something?

― brony james (k3vin k.), Friday, February 28, 2025 4:00 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’m just wondering about the incest comment. what is that about?

That was pretty heavily implied in the first episode alone.

Yeah, that's definitely been a thing, the vibe of the entire family is weird and creepy including the way the parents find the son's totally inappropriate comments hilarious.

And yeah that Arch digest clip of goggins crib was great. Love that you can spend 10 million on a house and still have fuckin’ ants on your kitchen counter

Finally saw the first episode yesterday, and (since this is the kind of prestige TV where we look for clues in symbols and metaphors), the dinner dialogue with the three women was interesting where they remembered all being onstage acting as one body. Since they all look more alike than not as well, this feels like it will resonate as some grand Buddhist thing and/or just an orgy.

- cougar infighting uninteresting

The doesn't she look great > doesn't she look awful trajectory in the scene where the other two are talking about Laurie was something I've never found in White Lotus conversations so far: predictable. I find those three the least engaging group.

The scene with Victoria blanking Kate in the restaurant was great.

I'm enjoying it, but definitely less than the other two seasons so far.

feel like a lot of people are confused by the pacing this year because it’s 8 episodes instead of the usual 6

I thought the convo between the ladies was banal af on purpose, like it was the typical dance they always do and they don’t feel comfortable having authentic conversation bc they aren’t comfortable around each other anymore in spite of their shared history.

Which is why Coons’ character laments in private

I don’t know ANYONE’S name in this show my apologies. Except for Belinda.

Oh I had to look them up don't worry. I don't know why I didn't just stick with the actor names.

The only thing we know about coons character is she didn’t get promoted or something and drinks a lot. Gripping

did you get promoted

And her daughters having trouble.

did you get promoted

how are you not gripped by the plotline of three women competing over which young man each of them get to fuck, that you made up in your head

A few years old--they're clearly riffing on s2--but pretty funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDK7_M59os

feel like a lot of people are confused by the pacing this year because it’s 8 episodes instead of the usual 6

one of my favorite very small moments from this new ep was when Leslie Bibb wakes up & goes outside & realises her friends are talking about her.

There’s a look of something like “oh god its happening again” or “oh god now its me” that felt so genuine, like in a flash she’s reliving a long-forgotten feeling

Anyway i love her micro-expressions & this was a GREAT one

and Goggins chemistry with the actress who plays Chelsea (forget her name, sry) is so great. Like he’s a complete asshole all day but there’s these small moments where they coms together & you feel there’s a real history there, and just this tiny candle-flame of warmth that changes the dimension of who/what they are. Really great.

also my personal rule: never go to a snake show while stoned.

I think Rick & Chelsea’s relationship is really interesting, tho their interactions are getting a little repetitive… he says or does something rude or weird; she shakes her head and says, “You have problems, you know that?!”; etc.!

that Black Lotus SNL skit was hilarious cryptosicko.

I am looking forward to the new episode of White Lotus. I think the show was always - and now still is - meant to be boring at first, but then it is meant to devolve into a satire about different competing factions of rich people, where their financial machinations as well as their repulsive personalities and feelings about each other come to light

I don't mind the slow pace, but it doesn't seem like a slow pace in service of very much right now. No real ratcheting of tensions, in either plot or relationships, just kind of spinning wheels. Which is fine, though it's pretty bonkers to have a main character bit by a cobra and that be kind of a brief blip of a brushed-off digression.

Three episodes in and all the connections to the previous two seasons, both characters and themes, feels almost like a summation. I know he said he could do these as long as HBO says yes, but did he say he's got ideas for a 4th or fifth or whatever season? Or could this conceivably be a final season?

I think he said in this recent profile that he’s gonna ride it out as long as he can…

Three episodes in and all the connections to the previous two seasons, both characters and themes, feels almost like a summation.

As a digression... a few days after Ep. 1 aired, I stumbled upon someone's "theory" that was so ingenious, I felt 90% sure he was OTM (and I was a little bummed by the "spoiler," even though it was just a prediction!). Both elements of the theory have since been disproved, but I'll hide them anyway, in case they're ideas that come into play in a future season:

1. Laurie, the NYC lawyer, would turn out to be mother of Portia from S2. This was based on a similar outfit she wore (floppy hat, etc.), as well as a line like, "Your daughter is turning out to be a really cool person." Her daughter ended up being named in Ep. 2, however, and it's not "Portia."
2. The season would turn out to be happening before S1 – i.e., it's a "prequel" season! This was harder to square with what we saw in Ep. 1 - how would Greg be living so high on the hog before meeting Tanya? etc. – but I loved the idea that the rug could be pulled from under our feet like that.

The point being that even though these particular ideas didn't play out this time, White always could do stuff along those lines...

parker posey is awful in this snow

show

third episode was zzzzzzz

Yeah, I didn't know if it was me or the episode, but I got annoyed with it to the extent that the breathy music started getting on my nerves.

Also, is it cool for an employee of the company to march up to a guest and start quizzing him about where she has seen him before? Aren't you supposed to be super discreet at this kind of high-end resort in order to avoid embarrassing horrible rich people?

I guess she's in an ambiguous position- both guest and employee- that might allow her to do that? But it's also possible that the choice to talk to Greg may come back to bite her, I suppose

There are a few people that know or recognize each other in this season, very "Clue" the movie. Natasha Rothwell and Jon Gries, Parker Posey and Leslie Bibb, *maybe* Goggins and Jason Isaacs? Goggins and Isaacs had some confrontational exchange in maybe the second episode. Right now they seem to be spending the most time on Isaacs, but his plight is pretty banal. For fun I've been focusing a bit on sweat bead continuity. Goggins in particularly can go from sweaty to relatively dry from scene to scene.

And can I just say again, someone got bit by a cobra mid-episode and was back at the resort the same day with a band-aid like nothing happened.

the offending cobra was defanged probably

Then why rush her to the hospital? I remain offended.

I’m committed to enjoying this show so I did not mind the slow ep

It's def. enjoyable, because the cast and acting are fun. But it's been a couple of slow episodes in a row, which is remarkable, given that one of those episodes featured an armed assault and robbery and another featured someone getting bit by a cobra.

Perhaps this is social commentary on the newsapocalypse we've all become used to

I find it pretty easy to suspend my disbelief regarding the authenticity of snake bite venom to recovery time.

If anything, it's kind of funny, bit by a cobra in the afternoon, then back at the resort with a band-aid and drinking cocktails by evening.

" ... and then the cobra *bit* me!!!! (takes sip of drink) Anyway, is it just me or are the room towels kind of starchy? I'm going to call the front desk to complain."

I do like that about her character. I can imagine if any of the more privileged women had been bitten, there would be a lot more fuss about it.

I have been checking about cobra bites. Mortality rate pretty low, but they usually keep you under observation for 24 hours.

I’m committed to enjoying this show so I did not mind the slow ep

Same, I have faith that it's going somewhere and I don't expect big answers and reveals in the first half of the season (although the cliffhanger with Belinda at the end felt a bit basic, I mean it's probably a monkey in her room, right?). And if Parker Posey is so awful then why am I on the edge of my seat to hear what bizarre syllables will come out of her mouth?

Internet says/claims: "it was a monocled cobra bite, naja kaouthia. It causes necrotic tissue damage and often amputation."

Honestly, though, it was a shady roadside attraction, it's possible the snake had no venom and the schlubs running the show had no idea and rushed her to the hospital in a panic.

Things we have seen/heard so far this season that can kill you: guns, snakes, poison tree fruit, pills, Greg ...

monkeys

who is Greg? that's Gary!

I like complexities such as how the show leads you to sympathize w/Gaitok, while also feeling that, yeah, he probably deserves to be fired (it looked like the thieves pulled a distraction move on him, but nonetheless...)

It’s easy to forget how many Sopranos episodes felt slow and incidental when they aired one at a time, with the constant potential for someone important to get whacked.

I could see Gaitok having a massive, explosive meltdown in a future episode: my eyes are on him.

I saw someone express optimism about the "budding romance" btw Gaitok and Mook, and I thought, like... yeah, I'm not too optimistic there.

yeah Gaitok my dude: the friendzone is located here, here and here and you are seated directly in the center. enjoy yr flight and thx for flying friendzone airways

Anyway i love her micro-expressions & this was a GREAT one

very funny micro-expressions in the conversation about being an Independent too

Show finally got a shot in the arm via stoned Goggins letting the snakes free…”go find a tree” lmfao

Great episode this week, IMO. We’re back!

Funny, I thought this one was pretty dull. Or at least, anything that happened seemed pretty preordained so, in essence, kinda belated or besides the point. It's well acted (cast is great), but it's getting kind of dull and dramatically inert after what more or less feels like the same episode three or four times in a row now.

I thought the penis was funny

yes that was hilar!

i didnt mind this episode but definitely more filler than anything

I like Gaitok very much, but that man is bad at his job.

Just terrible, it’s a shame too

Chekhov's Monkey

Wieners are funny, but even that gag was recycled from the first season.

I dunno. It's been a while since I saw S2, but I recall it having this real air of queasy menace. S1, which I saw much more recently, was sillier, but had a clear escalation of tensions, to a comical degree. This one? A lot of furrowed brows.

The detail that Lochlan practices close-up magic, and does so not as pickup artistry (he seems totally disinclined to show off until his brother starts wingmanning him) but seemingly for its own sake, is just perfect.