The Havana Syndrome

A thread to talk or argue or share news about this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome

Please not another syndrome, I am still dealing with the lingering effects of Andromeda

best theory I've heard is that of unintended consequences - like the Russians or someone are using some crazy eavesdropping technology that also happens to produce splitting headaches

if my job was making me sick I would just quit.

lots of people hiring rn I keep seeing everyone from Fox to PBS concern trolling about biz owners not being able to find people to work

Havana laugh.

What if your job was making other people sick?

Havana Syndrome left me cigared for life

Dirty Dancing: Havana Syndrome

Venis mecha

If I had a magic headache ray, I would absolutely use it on people working in the Cartagena embassy rather than the White House or Pentagon.

Havana Syndrome? damb homie go work at Amazon. At least then a medical doctor can actually determine what’s wrong with you (urinary tract infection from holding pee)

I liked this article on the topic:

Havana syndrome fits the pattern of psychosomatic illness – but that doesn’t mean the symptoms aren’t real

The credulity of the media on the directed microwave theory has been pretty hilarious.

it’s legit and I’ll leave it at that

Why delete this banger pic.twitter.com/u6KuuMU8oG

— yoshi 🎃 (spooky arc) (@NotBanned_) October 21, 2021

The credulity of the media on the directed microwave theory has been pretty hilarious

Given their role to breathlessly reprint any press release about cops or troops, it just follows that they’d worship spooks, too.

tbf those are the only three things the richest nation the world has ever known is allowed to spend money on

Will repost what I wrote on the main politics thread:

I haven't done a deep dive into Havana Syndrome, but I've read articles in credible publications (for instance, this New Yorker article from a few months ago) that basically take the stance of "huh, this is really weird, and there still doesn't seem to be a good explanation for it." So that's basically where my head is at, and I don't really understand the jump to "this is obviously fake," regardless of how one feels about the CIA. (That said, I also don't think that individuals who work for the CIA are inherently and objectively bad or untrustworthy or undeserving of sympathy.)

― jaymc, Wednesday, October 20, 2021 11:10 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had around this, but it clearly isn't going to happen here.

i don't know what inherently and objectively bad means (i mean i think the CIA is objectively bad and no one should choose to work there but this isn't CIA workers: C/D) but being untrustworthy is what the CIA is, for that reason i believe this differs from the fibromyalgia thing.

I already look like a total ass enough of the time that I don't need to make myself look like more of an ass by coming down hard on either side of this issue I barely know anything about. If some kind of invisible headache ray existed and enemies of America wanted to use it to destabilize domestic or foreign policy, it seems like diplomats and CIA workers would be a solid choice in terms of access if nothing else. And that people thinking they were crazy for going public with weird + inexplicable symptoms would just be a fringe benefit. But also if monkeys were able to fly, they might fly out of my butt. So I'll maintain my agnosticism.

it's reasonable to be agnostic. i don't think there's any way to get valid information on topics relating to the CIA as the events are going on. for the TRUTH you have to wait 50 years for a small press to put out a weird book on it that sells 2000 copies!

To be clear, I think there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of the CIA as an institution and of any public claims that it puts forward. I don't think that people who choose to work there are irredeemably bad people.

Yeah, it's a shitty org and I'm certainly no defender but the fact that you even need to say that is more about the increasing insistence 'round these parts that everyone pass some sort of Manichaean purity test than anything else.

Sorry, what I meant to say is that that person who's working as an entry-level receptionist for the CIA is going to burn in the literal fires of hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6UlXZxch-A

Heh, DO U SEE?

If not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFFr2BIft-c

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+eKpVNkxL._SY445_.jpg

I have no idea if any of this is true, but I think it's only being taken so seriously due to diplomats and CIA people being the "victims". Most other people would have just gotten a "ha ha bullshit" response, like with gang-stalking.

for me, initially, it didn’t help that it sounded concocted in a tv writers room specifically to give Morning Jocephus and Zbigniew Brzezinski’s bird-brained kid the vapors

The USA being the country that spends more on defense (i.e. offense) than any other country by orders of magnitude, if anyone has an invisible headache gun, it's us.

We overinvested in wet-the-bed rays

the increasing insistence 'round these parts that everyone pass some sort of Manichaean purity test than anything else.

How? Absolutely no one has been taken to task for being more amenable to the potential goodness of CIA spooks or caring about them.

(Whereas you are basically equivalent to racist doctors if you think the idea of a headache cannon aimed at an organization dedicated to doing evil is something to joke about.)

"the idea of a headache cannon aimed at an organization dedicated to doing evil"

Definitely approaching it with an open mind, I see.

lol literally anyone who works for the cia is a fucking piece of shit, come on, we dont need to ted lasso this one

your mom works for the cia

Definitely approaching it with an open mind, I see.

You got me, I do not have an open mind as to the merit and morality of the CIA.

cia is cool if you just ignore everything they've ever done

The last 70 years were an aberration.

it's a very hard manichaean purity test to pass: just don't work at the torture/assassination place

they're just trying to teach people how to cook, what's so evil about that?

"I am unapologetically me. I want you to be unapologetically you, whoever you are. Whether you work at #CIA, or anywhere else in the world. Command your space. Mija, you are worth it."

lol i have been thinking of that for the past 24 hours

So some CIA officers were in tears during the torture sessions. That's not weakness. It's humanity. Too bad others didn't share it.

— Nicholas Kristof (@NickKristof) December 9, 2014

goddamn i'd almost forgotten about that

xpost

You got me, I do not have an open mind as to the merit and morality of the CIA.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 21, 2021 3:44 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

But we're not talking about "the merit and the morality of the CIA" as an institution. We're talking about """"""Havana Syndrome."""""

Which is being promoted by the CIA with the stated cause being foreign enemies with headache cannon, yes.

If it was black mold in the torture showers or high-VOC paint it wouldn’t be news. If it was just a “huh, that’s interesting that a bunch of spooks have headaches” it would be a single blog post on Foreign Policy and not legislation for sanctions and giving the CIA more money.

As such, the idea of “Havana Syndrome” is not worth taking seriously, no.

If you don’t think Russia has a headache cannon, then you also disagree with the existence of Havana Syndrome.

It's news because the origin is mysterious and unknown, and that does seem worth investigating, IMO.

I don't know if Russia has a "headache cannon." What makes you so sure that it doesn't, apart from the fact that "headache cannon" is a silly way to dismiss the weapon theory?

Anyway, keep up, Milo, we're calling it """""""Havana Syndrome""""""" (widely reported phenomenon under discussion ITT) to distinguish it from "Havana Syndrome" (specific set of CIA claims about the phenomenon).

lol literally anyone who works for the cia is a fucking piece of shit, come on, we dont need to ted lasso this one

― adam, Thursday, October 21, 2021 3:40 PM (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Can't imagine ever coming around to this position, but then again, I'm the guy who started a thread pushing back on the idea that people of high status and/or material wealth are necessarily irredeemable and deserve to burn in hell.

hat makes you so sure that it doesn't

For the same reason I don’t believe Jesus and dinosaurs existed simultaneously.

Because there’s no good reason to believe such weapons exist and can be deployed secretly.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/10/microwave-attacks-havana-syndrome-scientifically-implausible/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/havana-syndrome-jason-crickets

It’s a psychosomatic illness being used to promote the interests of the CIA and foreign policy hawks. As mass hysteria is wont to do, the more it’s promoted, the wider the phenomenon becomes. This we have 5G conspiracy nuts who are now being targeted by leave-behind GRU cells in Tucson.

widely reported phenomenon

By whom and in what context?

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It’s a psychosomatic illness

I initially thought this as well, but now having my doubts. Delusions don't show up on MRIs afaik

So a bunch of reporting on American spook claims of weapons being used by enemies? Not sure what your point was then?

Delusions don't show up on MRIs afaik

(Note, I didn't say delusions.) Yes! Psychosomatic illnesses (and schizophrenia and depression and etc.) can have effects visible on a MRI.

if I ever found myself being defensive towards people who work for the CIA and defending the honour of the rich. That's the day I'm going to fucking top myself. Anyway I think Havana Syndrome is a load of bollocks. The author who wrote the book on it is a bullshit merchant/grifter. Every person I've ever heard interviewed and talking up this up on BBC WS is either ex-CIA or some fucking variety of centrist media ghoul.

Feel like this thread is suffering from cross purposes wrt the headache cannons.

Perhaps we should leave this thread for discussion of symptoms and moral/ethical issues of punking CIA employees and have a separate thread for discussion of the existence and moral/ethical issues involved in headache cannons.

Headache Cannons: C/D, anyone?

Sounds like something I would've drunk in high school

Headache Cannons sound like the Mickey's Wide Mouth of CIA death rays.

Therefore CLASSIC

Is this the thread for the Paul Simenon solo project from 1990.

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdEt9EuDQhE

Sorry, better quality here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSd1zDD7arY

So a bunch of reporting on American spook claims of weapons being used by enemies? Not sure what your point was then?

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 21, 2021 4:45 PM (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

You're the one who's pressing the point that "Havana Syndrome" refers to specific CIA claims and not the phenomenon that the CIA is making claims about.

So a bunch of reporting on the CIA/State claims proves that this exists as a phenomenon separate from those claims?

Sure, most of the reporting isn't simply printing CIA press releases.

Unless you think the whole thing is a fictional tale concocted from whole cloth by the CIA, that not a single person actually experienced any headaches or dizziness or any other symptoms, and that anyone who has claimed to have experienced symptoms is in fact knowingly telling fabrications in a deliberate effort to spread propaganda? I mean, maybe that's the case, though for now, I think it makes sense to treat the phenomenon (people experiencing symptoms) as distinct from the CIA's explanation for the phenomenon.

Isn't a regular cannon technically a headache cannon?

And here's a study having to with... Canadians suffering similar symptoms:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/19007096v1

Some people in Cuba had some vague symptoms - possibly crickets, possibly bad paint, possibly the knowledge of their eternal damnation wearing on their mind. It was immediately picked up as an attack on Americans by Cubans. Then by the Russians.

From that moment on, the issue is inseparable from the weapons claim and advancing of intelligence and hawk interests.

From there the phenomenon spread globally - I have my doubts Chinese intelligence let Cuban intelligence set up a headache cannon in Beijing, personally.

This is mass hysteria with people being manipulated by the beneficiaries.

As referenced in the other thread, cops who OD in the presence of fentanyl are also having real symptoms of something - a panic attack, whatever. But this is fed by the constant need to present as and believe themselves to be victims, endangered by their job.

Which masses are being hysterical now? I don't get out that much, but I'd like to avoid running into them, if possible.

As referenced in the other thread, cops who OD in the presence of fentanyl are also having real symptoms of something - a panic attack, whatever. But this is fed by the constant need to present as and believe themselves to be victims, endangered by their job.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:32 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

When medical first responders had panic attacks because of fentanyl, was it also because they were cry babies believing they are perpetual victims? You have so much hatred within you.

There's also the possibility that some people suffered genuine, non-psychosomatic symptoms from (insert theory here), which led other staff to feel something akin to those symptoms.. i.e. like the one student that has a fainting spell which causes an epidemic of students fainting. Stranger things have happened.

Yes, I hate cops. Got me.

Cops are still routinely having copioid ODs and having Narcan administered (not something for panic attacks), so the argument about bad CDC guidelines being the cause is obviously horseshit.

You seem to be quite expert on this subject, milo z. where do you find the time?

One thing I know for sure, and that is that Havana 3am sucked

i.e. like the one student that has a fainting spell which causes an epidemic of students fainting. Stranger things have happened.

― Andy the Grasshopper, Thursday, October 21

reminds me of the films The Fits (Anna Rose Holmer, 2015) and The Falling (Carol Morley, 2014)

anyone not taking it seriously should step off. They’re giving training to government families traveling abroad about what to do if they think they’re subject to it.

They’re giving training to government families traveling abroad about what to do if they think they’re subject to it.

Does this training also cover symptoms of demonic possession?

as a radiologist, and regarding one of Milo’s points, the effects of major depression have in new studies apparently been shown by functional MRIs, but fMRIs are still somewhat limited, used mostly for brain mapping to determine the speech center and the motor cortex for people who are undergoing brain surgery. not that many people have had them though, and nothing in the reports by the victims that I’ve read has confirmed any MRI changes other than “brain aging”, which is nonspecific

As referenced in the other thread, cops who OD in the presence of fentanyl are also having real symptoms of something - a panic attack, whatever. But this is fed by the constant need to present as and believe themselves to be victims, endangered by their job.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:32 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

When medical first responders had panic attacks because of fentanyl, was it also because they were cry babies believing they are perpetual victims? You have so much hatred within you.

― Van Horn Street, Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:44 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I refuse to read the whole thread because I value my mental health but I think milo is describing this situation accurately? There's a good episode of The Politics of Everything podcast from Sep 29th that explored it well, I thought.

What to do if they think they’re subject to it, huh?

Hard to imagine how this spread to CIA stations across the globe.

The Langley field trip to the MBV concert without bringing ear plugs was a serious misstep, IMO.

i think a gun that gives CIA spooks headaches would be really funny

what if it made them poop themselves

what if there was a gun that made you sad

follow through syndrome sounds good

Brown Sound Array

Some people in Cuba had some vague symptoms - possibly crickets, possibly bad paint, possibly the knowledge of their eternal damnation wearing on their mind.

Glad you admit that there is a phenomenon separate from the CIA's claims about the phenomenon.

This is mass hysteria with people being manipulated by the beneficiaries.

This could very well be true! I just find the certainty and dismissiveness kind of obnoxious. If it's mass hysteria, that's still pretty interesting and worthy of investigation, IMO.

@ Dan S - did you see this one upthread?

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/19007096v1

I'm not a radiologist (though a big fan of old-timey radio) but this study seems to indicate more specific findings than 'brain aging'? Though it could be pseudo-science gobblygook as well

Glad you admit that there is a phenomenon separate from the CIA's claims about the phenomenon.

An isolated incident is not a phenomenon, unless Havana crickets have been transported to Germany and Beijing.

It was immediately treated as an attack after three people experienced something. You cannot pretend that Havana Syndrome exists separate from the CIA's promotion of it.

With at least three intelligence officers now in severe distress, the C.I.A. and the State Department agreed. On February 17th, DeLaurentis visited Josefina Vidal Ferreiro, who was then the director-general of the U.S. division at the Foreign Ministry. He described the strange incidents and demanded that the harassment stop. Because U.S. intelligence agencies had no clear evidence that the Cubans were involved, DeLaurentis was instructed to tell Vidal that her government was culpable for failing to uphold the Vienna Convention requiring host governments to provide for the security of embassy personnel. Vidal reacted with disbelief, arguing that Cuba had always fulfilled its obligations to protect foreign diplomats. She found it “very suspicious” that DeLaurentis waited to report the incidents until mid-February, some seven weeks after the first American came forward.

I guess I shouldn't put the idea of Cuban biological weapon crickets out in the ether or they might find some necromancers to bring Colin Powell back from the dead.

When your paramilitary bosses tell you you're under attack, I wonder if there's a psychological and physiological response...

re: Andy's post, I love you but

"significant spatial memory impairment, abnormal brain-stem evoked potentials, degradation of fibre tracts in the fornix and posterior corpus callosum, blood-brain barrier injury to the right basal forebrain and anterior insula, and abnormal paroxysmal slowing events of cortical activity"

That is all just such horseshit

is this like when Manning leaked all those docs and everyone was handwringing about endangering spies? Fuck all spies!!!!

anyone else itt starting to feel....🤢🤢🤢

can someone please make a gif of the james bond gun barrel intro but instead of blood crawling down the screen it's barf

offgassing

I didn't mean to be harsh, sorry. I like all of the posts in this thread

I just find the certainty and dismissiveness kind of obnoxious.

speaking as someone who hates the CIA and is skeptical of this thing, you are not alone. it's certainly worth a thread about the "phenomenon" without milo's endless trolling

also, Raymond deserves better

"argue" is one of the 4 words in raymond's post and that's what milo's doing, i'm not reading his posts as bad faith trolling at all

I was intrigued by my best friend’s circumstances in med school. She was from DC. She told me her father was in the US Information Agency (active until 1999), and that he had moved the family all around the world - to Chad, Sri Lanka, Martinique

She was convinced he was a CIA agent, but he never shared anything about that with us. I was able to visit him when he got older, I liked talking to him, but he never gave anything away

this thread is massive tongue-biting for me.

https://quitmouthbiting.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/quit-cheek-biting-mouth-sores.png

I dated someone for a long time whose grandfather was described to me as “doing something vague with insurance” during the 50s-70s that required him to live in a number of Latin American and SE Asian countries. Always in a hotbed of recent military/ intelligence activity when we were Doing Democracy at them. I never met him but he sounded like a caricature of a WASP prick, and that was just according to his kids and grandkids.

yeah this is lies all the way down

yr mom defies the laws of physics as the west understands them

I think it's time to start issuing tin foil hats to State Dept. employees

Behold: The Worst Havana Syndrome Report Yet

Dan S, I had an fMRI at UCSF in 2009 or so, for a study. My friend was interning in a lab. It was very neat! I wonder if you work there.

This hysterical Wapo editorial from last month is my favourite:

Eventually, the culprits must be found and held to account. But first, the injurious emissions have to be stopped. The health and well-being of U.S. officials abroad demand no less. National security depends on those officials to be the eyes and ears of the United States. It is unacceptable that someone is trying to punch them out, and is getting away with it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/28/havana-syndrome-unsolved-unacceptable/

I think another gross thing about these breathless articles— and yes, about some reactions here on ILX— is that they actually put stock in the notion that military combatants of the US are our collective "enemies," rather than constructions of military and statecraft.

Schizophrenics being like "This is what I've BEEN SAYING" about Havana syndrome is pretty funny

— нико (@nietzscioran) October 21, 2021

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2014-08/documents/sick_building_factsheet.pdf

sorry I’m done

See, black mold in the torture dungeon showers.

also, Raymond deserves better

I guess what I find kind of weird ITT is people saying "whatever, it's mass hysteria, who cares," whereas I think mass hysteria is pretty interesting and worth examining!

Just saw this:

According to Jargon’s reporting and previous research, this development involves mostly young women and is heavily influenced by how often they watched TikToks from influencers who said they had Tourette syndrome. The movements are sociogenic, meaning they are developed socially, but have profound and real neurological effects. Patients had physical jerks, such as neck twitches, or were compulsively and involuntarily repeating a word like “beans.”

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tanyachen/young-women-reporting-concerning-behavioral-changes-from

I guess what I find kind of weird ITT is people saying "whatever, it's mass hysteria, who cares," whereas I think mass hysteria is pretty interesting and worth examining!

What's interesting or unique about this case?

I dunno, any case of mass hysteria seems interesting to me, but different strokes, I guess.

Can qe say for sure these are strokes tbf

see now milo is really leaning into the bad faith trolling. yes this is interesting and worthy of discussion, if only as a case study of mass hysteria like the cops who claimed the poison milkshakes. of course these assholes suck, but this is worth following on multiple levels (awareness, media aggregation, skepticism, possibly maybe occasionally actual evidence?).

what I really object to here is milo's underlying assertion that this thread shouldn't exist, and his decision to engage in his usual pointless overposting like Colin Anderson the psychic vampire, sapping the thread of all energy until none remain.

(the 10% of the time that milo isn't engaged in toxic bad-faith trolling, I usually agree with him ftr)

also v intrigued by brimstead's "sick building" post, a phenomenon that is known to exist and is actually documented. Wouldn't be surprised if some cut-corners DoD mentality resulted in shoddy construction that could create these effects.

again, yes, this is interesting and worth a thread.

No thread need justify itself, but let us demand that every post must

(-_-)

darraghmac i somehow just noticed yr display name, made me chuckle

milo's underlying assertion that this thread shouldn't exist

This underlying assertion that doesn't exist?

Cops and spooks psyching themselves up as victims and making themselves ill, how that's spread (paramilitary bosses telling their underlings they're under fire), the spooks and hawks use of the hysteria to further their goals (money, saber-rattling, enhancement of institutional power and prestige), the actual root cause - all things I've talked about in this very thread. That I'm prefacing it with "Havana Syndrome isn't real" (as Havana Syndrome has been repeatedly defined by the people selling it to gullible rubes - and Congressional Democrats, but I repeat myself) doesn't change any of that.

Are there also tossed off cheap shots? Yes, because the situation doesn't deserve some considered solemnity. No one's died (except whomever we decide to target with sanctions), there are no real stakes at play.

Tabes if you spotted a typically garbled reference to a resurgent man utd left back im v impressed

can someone please make a gif of the james bond gun barrel intro but instead of blood crawling down the screen it's barf

― ✖, Friday, 22 October 2021 01:26 (twenty-two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I really thought, before spotting the time posted,and with no small sense of horror, this was gonna finish with 'alec baldwin' and was like wow, dark af

admittedly chuckling at the thought of the bond intro ending with alec baldwin tumbling down the screen instead of blood

Yes i know but my first readings are commonly extremely cursory, shameful but true

JUST IN: Funding for victims of "Havana Syndrome" to be included in Pentagon bill https://t.co/5pr1NHSTJL pic.twitter.com/uTHupoCdd0

— The Hill (@thehill) October 25, 2021

Speaking as someone who lives with Havana type symptoms from long term post-concussion syndrome, I find the list of symptoms quite plausible - they’re all hearing/balance-related - very commonly the kind of thing you get from sustained loud noise/high pitched noise/hearing damage or a knock to the head. Builders and factory workers get these symptoms all the time because noise in the workplace is so poorly regulated. It’s not voodoo doll stuff.

And often with these symptoms, psychosomatic and actual physical symptoms become interdependent. Sometimes it’s pureky psychosomatic, sometimes it’s purely the result of actual physical damage, and sometimes it’s both – I’d say both was more common. Anyone who’s had tinnitus, either briefly or for a long period, knows this is pretty normal.

But those causes are easily identified. The cause they found in Havana was crickets, which the sufferers (and the conspiracy people who love them) are rejecting.

Those causes aren’t easily identified at all. Many, many people with concussion/trauma issues and functional neurological disorders have no idea what originally caused them.

Former CIA officers urge response to what they believe are Russian microwave attacks known as Havana Syndrome: “Enlist U.S. allies, expand forward deterrence, limit the adversary’s reach, choke off money, and bring those accountable to justice.” https://t.co/nyKr6pyZsI

— Ken Dilanian (@KenDilanianNBC) October 25, 2021

we're gonna nuke every microwave in russia

*HUNTED*

"I just process visas, I'm not CIA!"
Russian Tommy Lee Jones - "I don't care."

Huh

https://theintercept.com/2014/09/04/former-l-times-reporter-cleared-stories-cia-publication/

the wiring and networking in the brain

🧵This from @juliaioffe is 45 seconds of a firehose of idiocy and since it just might be the pretext for the next war, I’m going to go through it piece by piece. This is Elizabeth Holmes “a chemistry occurs” only more arrogant and confused. pic.twitter.com/8NJ2TeTG4Q

— Daniel Koffler, MD 🌹🏴🔥🇵🇸 (@dmkoffler) October 28, 2021

someone has brain damage, that's for sure.

you don't even need to know anything or see it debunked, it's obvious from her hedging and body language that she's full of shit

shades of 'a chemistry is performed'

How does this gibberish get published

A thing that has surprised me in this spate of skeptical Havana Syndrome op-eds is that many of them have failed to reckon with the possibility that the tech at play could be iterative—and that different iterations are now in the hands of multiple actors. https://t.co/mDH4KfB4d7

— Katie Bo Lillis (@KatieBoLillis) November 4, 2021

Katie Katie Bo Lillis
Banana fana fo Fillis
Me mi mo millis

Katie (Annoyed Grunt) Lillis

The dreaded multiple actors.....

Do journalists understand how burden of proof works?

It has caught me by surprise too. Skepticism is good! But insisting the matter is settled—when the public-facing literature is hardly unanimous & a majority of the data remains classified & therefore unavailable for public debate—doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a journalist. https://t.co/zaBxl80f8Z

— Katie Bo Lillis (@KatieBoLillis) November 4, 2021

there are journalists and there are USIC stenographers

lol @ the 'captain-save-a-genocidal-torture-factory' s itt. havana syndrome is obviously a collective psychosomatic manifestation of the existential guilt felt for unconscionable actions, a telltale heart for all the victims of torture and suppression around the world. if you had any feeling or sympathy you would save it for the CIA's victims rather than its operatives.

saw this on site new answers and assumed it was about a band I never heard of

Ry Cooder, Tom Waits & Marc Ribot, Havana Syndrome

Havana Swell Time

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/cia-says-havana-syndrome-not-result-sustained-global-campaign-hostile-rcna12838

In a new intelligence assessment, the CIA has ruled out that the mysterious symptoms known as Havana Syndrome are the result of a sustained global campaign by a hostile power aimed at hundreds of American diplomats and spies, six people briefed on the matter tell NBC News.

In about two dozen cases, the agency can’t rule out foreign involvement, including many of the cases that originated at the U.S. embassy in Havana beginning in 2016. Another group of cases is considered unresolved. But in hundreds of other cases of possible symptoms, the agency has found plausible, alternate explanations, the sources said.

This report, if true, would seem to run directly contrary to milo's hypothesis that the CIA not only knew from the start that this syndrome was bogus, but that the CIA cunningly boosted its signal as part of a disinformation campaign, purposely creating a hysteria beneficial to them and their spymasters. If it all was working so well to that end, why repudiate it?

i would guess with a lot of certainty that the CIA was grasping at straws as to come to some sort of conclusion for all of these incidents.

If it all was working so well to that end, why repudiate it?

They got their money and grifts have to end eventually.

“The CIA admits it was bullshit, this proves they didn’t know it was bullshit” is an interesting argument, though.

see this watch? i got it by Crying. my car? crying. my beautiful wife? Crying. My perfect teeth? Crying. now get the fuck out of my office

— wint (@dril) January 14, 2012

Tryna make fetch happen

CIA interim report is disinformation. Other agencies furious no coordination occurred & they disagree. This still shows how individual agencies disregarding uniform approach & not including proper experts. Why?

We already filed lawful whistleblower complaint challenging CIA. https://t.co/t1t1VduUN4

— Mark S. Zaid (@MarkSZaidEsq) January 20, 2022

best guess is that multiple people in this thread have dealt with the CIA regarding the matter

This report, if true, would seem to run directly contrary to milo's hypothesis that the CIA not only knew from the start that this syndrome was bogus, but that the CIA cunningly boosted its signal as part of a disinformation campaign, purposely creating a hysteria beneficial to them and their spymasters. If it all was working so well to that end, why repudiate it?

Don't think anyone ever claimed it was working well? Why not cash yr chips in when it's clear the con isn't working?

Not sure how “Havana Syndrome=Profit” works. Sounds like “hospitals get paid more if they call it a COVID death”.

ah the cia simps are out again

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompleteFriendlyAustraliancurlew-max-1mb.gif

aren't they just testing a weapon on their own people? that's kinda their m.o.

Not sure how “Havana Syndrome=Profit” works

why would they decide to stop the massive havana syndrome gravy train versus just making a fake report that says it was definitely a foreign power?

because it didn't gain any traction and is being mocked by all but the most susceptible

also the purpose of a con doesn't have to be exclusively financial gain

but i thought the overly credulous shill media was buying it hook line & sinker? itt the cia is all-powerful but also susceptible to twitter criticism, their motives unknowable but also completely obvious & predictable

the objective isn't to convince the media, it's to convince the populace

INT. CIA HEADQUARTERS, NIGHT: "Bad news, fellow spooks... it's being mocked by all but the most susceptible... there's nothing left to do, I guess, but release a report that tells the truth. We did our best."

I don't think the CIA is "all powerful" at all, it has a long and storied history of fucking up while meddling in world events, judged by the standards of what it was trying to achieve

I also don't think it's motives are ever unknowable, they're pretty straightfoward

I mean I dunno man, we're talking about an organisation that has a long history of lying to the populations of other countries and its own, this isn't even some leftist conspiracy stuff it's acknowledged by the organisation itself, though of course always within the framing of "we needed to do this to protect freedom/America".

Dunno why when an organisation that does this comes out with a wildly outlandish claim our default should be that they're acting in good faith.

the cia is obv a historical bad actor but i guess i just have never heard an explanation for this particular conspiracy theory that makes any sense, even by those terms. the purpose of this gigantic worldwide con operation was intended to increase the American public's antipathy towards a group of countries most Americans already virulently fear & hate? except the cia suddenly changed their mind and decided to give up?

Have you considered they are just kinda dumb and paranoid and genuinely believed they weee on to something

Were

much of the CIA's 20th century activity was aimed at increasing animosity against countries that most Americans already virulently feared and hated

if the report said it was definitely a foreign power ppl would say "of course theyd say that, the cia acts with total impunity to alter the course of world events", but when the report says the opposite its "of course theyd say that, they are total bumbling goons and are obviously very embarrassed."

Like not everything is a fourth dimension false flag psy-op. It’s possible they really think there was some sort of death ray giving them headaches cause they are dumb and paranoid that antifa is out to get them.

otm. and we all still get to think the cia is dumb and make fun of them! everybody wins.

I don't think that believing that they could pull this story off makes them any less dumb than believing it was actually true tbh

if the report said it was definitely a foreign power ppl would say "of course theyd say that, the cia acts with total impunity to alter the course of world events", but when the report says the opposite its "of course theyd say that, they are total bumbling goons and are obviously very embarrassed."

Well yeah, I'm not going to give a CIA report creedence no matter what its conclusions are, think that's pretty reasonable

except you have to shift your entire estimation of the cia depending on which conclusion you want to believe the opposite of(?), is my point

I was reading the timeline of a scholar who studies not national security, but the culture of the national security community and his conclusion is basically that they are really insulated from reality, subject to groupthink, not bright at all, and genuinely believe all protest or left wing movements are all in lock step and directed by central masterminds.

I mean, when the starting point is "the CIA are always bad intentioned liars" (which is, historically, not a bad starting position to take), it's easy enough to twist the narrative around this to be whatever you want it to be.

You don't, really - they float shit, some of it works, some of it doesn't. Just because an intelligence agency tries to influence public opinion doesn't mean there's some determinsitic guarantee that it'll work.

xpost

I mean "of course the CIA would say that" is the get out of jail free card for literally any discussion around this and, once laid, it's pointless to engage in any further nuanced conversation.

has the cia ever previously publicly called bullshit on their own psyops operation bc they sensed the public wasnt buying it?

fwiw my reaction to this isn't at all "of course the CIA would say that"; the fact that they'be backtracked is somewhat surprising to me

it's the conclusion "well this is proof that it must have been started in good faith" that I find hasty and unconvincing

I'm clearly in the minority and I really don't want to put myself in a position to get bullied by milo in yet another thread, all I'm saying is that I also think the CIA is full of shit but I maintain there is an interesting conversation to be had around why this did pick up steam as it did and how even the dumb, media driven narrative may have led to seemingly "real" symptoms for people.

I just think the whole story is somewhat fascinating from a sociological perspective without believing any group is out there aiming actual magic ray guns at the heads of diplomats. This just clearly is not the thread for getting into that, lest you be outed as a "CIA simp".

The 'you were saying it was a psyop!!! from the start' line doesn't really work either. As covered upthread many times, some people felt bad for some reason (crickets, ennui) and the natsec state (not just the CIA - State and the NSA and the usual crowd of DC hawks) immediately began treating and promoting it as an attack - that's not a psyop, that's institutional paranoia being used to further their goals (get money, foster hostility to 'enemies').

It’s a psychosomatic illness being used to promote the interests of the CIA and foreign policy hawks. As mass hysteria is wont to do, the more it’s promoted, the wider the phenomenon becomes. This we have 5G conspiracy nuts who are now being targeted by leave-behind GRU cells in Tucson.

Some people in Cuba had some vague symptoms - possibly crickets, possibly bad paint, possibly the knowledge of their eternal damnation wearing on their mind. It was immediately picked up as an attack on Americans by Cubans. Then by the Russians.

The new report requires no 'twisting of the narrative' for anyone suspicious of the hawks' motives in promoting this - and as above, some of them are still trying to make it happen.

we all know this thread is itself a cia psyop, seeded with double-agent assets secretly tasked with baiting posters into defending cia's good faith, its clear as day

I don’t care about wether it was in good faith but just arguing that these people are dumber than we usually give them credit for qua “manipulating public opinion” or whatever.

i'm bummed cuba/china/russia doesn't have a mind ray, which would be evidence of a great leap in understanding

Historically they've been quite successful at manipulating public opinion - the failure* here has more to do with the position America's imperial mandarins find themselves in these days.

The right now thinks they're agents of the deep state out to get Trump, the left has always correctly read them as pure evil, their only constituency is a narrow band of liberals (who like the CIA/FBI/etc. because they think they're agents of the deep state out to protect us from Trump) and remaining Never Trump conservatives.

*they still got blank checks from Congress

It’s a psychosomatic illness

Lock thread.

given that these stories specifically state that several clusters of reported symptoms including one in vienna and the original one in havana are being deemed unexplained and are still being investigated, it kinda feels like you guys are arguing over nothing

no we explained them

Black mold in the torture dungeon showers, hangovers after getting honeypotted for national security secrets.

The right now thinks they're agents of the deep state out to get Trump, the left has always correctly read them as pure evil, their only constituency is a narrow band of liberals (...) and remaining Never Trump conservatives.

But bland as it seems, the great majority of the CIA's institutional activities consist of gathering up-to-date information about other nations' economic and military resources, and analyzing it. The thousands of intelligence analysts are just drones with little capacity for independently doing evil.

Where the deeper problem lies is always in the transition from information gathering and analysis into US political policies and actions. These do not originate in the CIA. The CIA's evil in the world is a direct extension of the evil policies of our government. Those elements of the CIA who do shit like 'rendition' and torture are the mafia underlings following the orders of the capo di tutti capi. Cut off the head and the body will die.

For too long, Americans affected by directed energy attacks have struggled and fought to access the care they need and deserve to get well. Their experiences drove my effort to establish this coordinator and reform our government response to provide equitable access to care. https://t.co/hRX06G1Xnb

— Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (@SenatorShaheen) February 1, 2022

Do you suffer from DEA? Now there's help for you.

We need justice for contrail victims

I suffer from a magician-keeps-pushing-a-cloud-over-my-head syndrome. When will I get some relief?

yeah i’ve got Havana Syndrome…Simply Havana Wonderful Christmastime

— chase (@chuchugoogoo) September 22, 2021

BREAKING: Inside sources at the CIA are saying the agency is looking seriously at the possibility the Chinese navy deployed a high energy acoustic weapon at the USS Carl Vinson causing an F35 to crash land. The Navy reported a strange sound hitting immediately before the crash. pic.twitter.com/l3Nb822WzM

— IntelliNEWS (@IntellNEWS2) February 7, 2022

Sub-Eric Garland-quality grifter account but the idea of Havana Syndrome headache rays explaining why the F-35 sucks is a great bit.

Big-ass story on this on 60 Minutes tonight. They interviewed John Bolton, so it MUST be true!!!!!!!

This shit is insane. I can't believe they didn't bring Lara Logan back to report a story this transparently full of shit. They played a recording of what they claimed was the magic headache ray and actually *reassured the audience* beforehand that the sound itself does not cause the effects - the sound is a byproduct of the brain-death ray, "like the sound of a gun." It was like something out of that show Brass Eye.

Where the deeper problem lies is always in the transition from information gathering and analysis into US political policies and actions. These do not originate in the CIA. The CIA's evil in the world is a direct extension of the evil policies of our government. Those elements of the CIA who do shit like 'rendition' and torture are the mafia underlings following the orders of the capo di tutti capi. Cut off the head and the body will die.

No H.W. Bush, no cred. I thought this was the greatest hits thread wtf.

I asked Alexander Stubbs, Integrative Biology PhD student at UC Berkeley, and author on first analysis of Havana Syndrome cricket noises about 60 Minutes recording - his response:

"My initial analysis of the recording in the 60 min piece is indeed the same species of cricket." https://t.co/A7iD4Tb9FS

— Dan Vergano (@dvergano) February 21, 2022

I adjusted the levels and ran it through some filters so you can hear that it's NOT a natural sound - people need to hear this: pic.twitter.com/uYbldA68WU

— 忍者の神 Marxist-Yeagerist ⌬ (@delmoi) February 21, 2022

damn it

I went to college with that twitter poster and I swear he's followed me around the internet to irritate me

No H.W. Bush, no cred.

Been saying it for years.

The US is ready to track down the evildoers behind this:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~7UAAOSw8idc6c-9/s-l1600.jpg

NOTE: Listening to a recording of the sound will not injure, it is a byproduct

We're just declaring outright that these sounds are the cause, huh?

Harbl did d3lm0i used to be a regular here or was that another forum I’m remembering?

i don't think so, i just found it in the replies

it sucks that a dude is blind in one eye

Unless his ‘unnamed government agency’ was the CIA, in which case lol good.

viborg did you ever read metaf1lter? that's one he plagued, lol

The grunts and squeals are by Josh Gad.

Slipping a little Havana Syndrome in here for fun

My hair wasn’t always white. Russians use chemicals, poisons, bullets, nerve agents, directed energy and information as weapons. https://t.co/H5BYoat4q5

— John Sipher (@john_sipher) February 24, 2022

someone replaced my just for men with krazy glue and i think i know who it is

Somewhat ignorant question, but is it only Americans who have reported symptoms? The bullshit headache ray manufacturer will want a better return on investment than targeting some GS-10-scale CIA drones.

it's only tuned to american brainwaves so far. the french are currently planned for a patch sometime in Q2

Right now it only attacks the lobe of the brain that appreciates Luke Bryan music, which appears to exist mostly in Americans

Rooting for the magic headache cannon tbh

Twenty yeasr ago, at a CIA black site in Afghanistan, Ammar al-Baluchi was used as a "living prop" to teach torture—trainees lined up to take turns at knocking his head against a wall until he got brain damage.

CIA kept the info classified until this week.https://t.co/ofruMEVlrb

— Avi Asher-Schapiro (@AASchapiro) March 15, 2022

they don't do that stuff anymore though

Biggest airquotes of all time

I guarantee that you will not guess where Law & Order went with this. pic.twitter.com/uuPsSTchpl

— biftechnoir 🇺🇸🇫🇮 (@kenmegalopsuxos) May 15, 2022

:D

"Ripped from the headlines!"

SCOOP: FBI personnel have been reporting symptoms of the mysterious syndrome that first afflicted overseas diplomats and spies... inside the US. Members of the FBI say they've been injured in DC and Florida, especially in the bureau's Miami field office, @MarkSZaidEsq says. pic.twitter.com/gDkUzo50hU

— Sasha Ingber (@SashaIngber) August 26, 2022

That's just too much Miami bass.

victims of some kind of miami sound machine

I gotta get one of these things.

Keep their heads ringing

https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/sung-tieu-art-basel-miami-beach-havana-syndrome-1234648478/

Evidence that Havana Syndrome exists

For many of the years I was at CIA, I included this MLK quote as part of my email header:

“Cowardice asks the question, is it safe? Expediency asks the question, is it politic? Vanity asks the question, is it popular? But conscience ask the question, is it right? (1/2)

— Gail Helt (@ghelt) January 16, 2023

maybe they were the resistance inside the company

honestly no worse than the "he was a Republican, you know" crowd

shocking news

Scoop: A long-awaited report by the US intel community concludes ‘Havana Syndrome’ was not caused by an energy weapon or foreign adversary, shattering a widespread theory that a secret device debilitated scores of spies & diplomats. By @shaneharris & me https://t.co/EkxPx8c1u1

— John Hudson (@John_Hudson) March 1, 2023

Turns out it was caused by trans people waving pieces of paper with the word fentanyl written on them out the window in the direction of US embassies.

it is caused by a car driving by going burbbhrbhbbhbburbbb

I can't believe you used that word unperson, I clicked open this thread and immediately saw four cops fall down on the sidewalk across the street.

Tell-Tale Heart Syndrome doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Havana Syndrome opens your third eye and allows you to project into the astral realm lol https://t.co/b2ZN7hnhkf pic.twitter.com/uYG1XjdQKT

— Robert Skvarla (@RobertSkvarla) April 10, 2023

god some fucking prog band is totally going to write a concept album about this

I don't even know if I'm annoyed or excited about that

I kind of liked that movie when it was released as The Men Who Stare at Goats

in lounge in dad's nursing home and History Channel is basically doing a special on Havana Syndrome which uncritically accepts it as a real thing.

Have opted not to turn it off because it's bringing lols

havana syndrome is real but it is actually caused by watching the history channel

yeah it was weird, as soon as the History channel came on, my bowels evacuated.

I tried to apologize but they just assured me they'd have the spaghetti luncheon on Thursday instead

60 Minutes is doing a report on Havana Syndrome right now. Turns out Russia did it.

Details on the 60 Minutes story.

I’m skeptical! 😂

https://assets1.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2024/03/31/11c1df63-cf41-402d-a138-7d61004dac26/thumbnail/1240x698/18fce29c6f81c421f6d18f00eb7a49c5/targeting-americans-video.jpg?v=3d62f4cc0092e6eb151a9685301ed284

Does she have to wear that wig because the Russian mystery ray made her head swell up, or something?

She has Patricia Arquette Syndrome

At the same time, she said, the battery in her phone began to swell until it broke the case.

So the cricket ray is blowing up batteries now?

A battery swelled! I’m convinced!

so if none of this is true does Russia even want to make a denial about this err no

I'm not going to read a bunch of suggestive theories. Are they explaining it through voodoo or have they discovered a cause that has some respectable physics behind it?

One guy supposedly found a Russian ledger line where they paid a guy a consulting fee for something so clearly the headache ray is real and Putin done did it.

My poke place has 60 Minutes on every Sunday I’ve been in, not sure what stories they run anymore beyond China or Russia fearmongering.

Has their reporting been off?

Well, their big story tonight being complete conspiracy-addled nonsense points to “not great” on the reporting side. Depends on how often you check under the bed for Red Chinese operatives undermining America I guess.

I've seen enough "blow things up in a microwave" youtube to know that Li-ion batteries burst into flames when bombarded with microwaves. Swollen battery syndrome is apparently rare, but can be related to not fully discharging the battery enough and overcharging it. I still think this is a load of bollox.

cockney putin: "just havana bubble mate"

hergé was a mole:

https://i.imgur.com/zK9aBu5.png

Meanwhile, a new study apparently contradicts the brain injury findings from 2018.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-with-havana-syndrome-show-no-brain-damage-or-medical-illness/

Battery swelling is increasingly rare, but it was relatively common when this occurred.

I’d also bet that most swelling comes from manufacturing defects rather than discharging.

yeesh that 60 minutes article… is George Noory on the case?

"There is, in my view, without a doubt, evidence of a cover up. Now, some of that cover up is not necessarily that, 'oh, we found a weapon,'" Zaid said. "What I've seen more so is, 'we see lines of inquiry that would take us potentially to answers we don't want to have to deal with, so we're not going to explore any of those avenues.'"

This is the most incredible motte-and-bailey.

"There's a cover-up." "By that I mean that someone somewhere isn't taking something seriously."