boundaries

Have been thinking about boundaries recently in a loose sort of way, mainly brought on by various things I’m reading but also from stories about things houseguests and loved ones have done while staying during the festive season.

My boundaries are very hard-won. It is important to push back, not least because I will not lie awake angry about things that are mostly pretty unimportant. The more you are aware of and enforce said boundaries the more it passes from conscious behaviour to unconscious thought and you can become one of those awful assertive people, y/n?

It is generally a truism that people will treat you how you let them, but also I am aware that I miss out on friends and experiences for this reason. It’s a hard needle to thread. So I move from being too harsh on people for the most part to feeling angry if I have a boundary stepped on or violated and it’s up to me to work that balance out.

It’s important to know where you draw that line, and that will be different for everyone. It’s even more important to understand people’s own personal boundaries and how they protect them, some people are better at being upfront about this and their own needs than others, and it can be easy to take those of people who are quiet and non confrontational for granted. This isn’t an excuse for being less aware.

I’m interested in hearing from everyone about where their own boundaries lie, what they do to enforce them, and if they have similar difficulties.

Id introduce the further additional complicating factor of then being in different places for different people and when you yourself are in various contexts or moods etc

So my answer is its fluid, to an enormous degree

*enters thread waving enormous white flag*

look i know we've had our recent differences and i know a load of you think i'm a stupid asshole, which is to some extent definitely the case, but this thread feels like it could be valuable in unpicking various strands of antipathy that have been of late baked into ilx (which I will admit I certainly share fault in)

my own boundaries are pretty liberal (good choice of word eh lol yes yes) and i do realise a lot of that comes from privilege; i can afford to have liberal boundaries because yielding to others doesn't threaten my extremely secure sense of self (a sense that has come under SOME attack in recent years as i contemplate artistic failure, unwantedness etc - but a sense that is ready to rebound at any moment)

and so it is not my place to criticise when others have harsher boundaries, and in fact irl i have friendships where i now know how to respect these boundaries a lot better (being definitely kinda aspie has meant i've been way too self-absorbed, and continue to be on the internet at times, for which i apologise)

however i think it's good for everyone to examine where their boundaries come from, when they're able to modify them, and circumstances where they are not gonna stand for someone's shit (eg mine, lawlz)

so yeah good thread idk why am i posting oh yeah it's this white flag see

happy new year everyone esp gyac

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

I read Nedra Tawwab's Set Boundaries: Find Peace (twice!) and would recommend it to anyone looking for real talk about boundaries.
Personally, I am very good at maintaining some (with my rude abusive grandmother for example) and (historically) VERY bad at maintaining others (mostly at work). The concept of creating/maintaining/shifting one's boundaries can be life-changing! Thanks for this thread.

super cool of imago to pop in and make it all about him :-/

LL, tbh my op is asking for people to make it about them because by necessity we will (hopefully?) understand our own boundaries best

Kinda opposite LL i think, a lot of my working life has needed clear boundary setting and I think I'm mostly good at that (as long as I feel the boundaries are important and reasonable)

Personally tho idk I'm very conflict avoidant - lol I swear that's true - and sometimes have a compulsion to be over-open maybe? because I yearn for some kind of connection (I just can't make the) so I probably maintain my safe space more thru avoidance and retreat than more assertive techniques. I think mainly I'm fine with that tho

Darragh's not wrong that everything is case by case tho

idk I have a weird "reserve is good"/"absolutely sincerity is good" binary rattling around in me but don't we all contain multitudes?

Nah that all totally chimes with me, open until you see the recoil or you get bit yrself then back into scuttling mode

Have to say i find it pays off richly, when it pays off, a lot of my favourite people are fixtures in my life because they respond well to relaxed openness which i think is too rare a trait

Personally tho idk I'm very conflict avoidant - lol I swear that's true - and sometimes have a compulsion to be over-open maybe? because I yearn for some kind of connection

Would def have said that about you tbh

i've been thinking a lot about some extreme boundaries i've had to put into place recently for abusive family (no contact). or rather, you don't get to interact with me x way, and if you do, repeatedly (they do, and have shown that they want to keep it up), then you won't be in my life. i wonder sometimes just how much it's my responsibility to spell all this out to them when i'm frankly just exhausted and need to not talk to them at all. i wish i were able to do that, i'd feel better about all of this, but quite frankly i'm just not.

i think because i'm a cis man, i don't have my boundaries crossed or pushed as regularly by strangers or by coworkers as i otherwise would. BUT i do have a notably domineering supervisor who does not treat others with respect and crosses boundaries because she can. recently i really stood up for a particular boundary (you don't just get to tell me what to do, citing seniority, without discussing the larger reasoning / goals with me). in the past i would have just let it go and quietly seethed / despaired, but i just couldn't do it this time. i asked for a meeting with her the next day and was pretty good about communicating that i wasn't ok with it.

on the other end, because i was raised by a woman who basically only wants to cross other peoples' boundaries to establish a power imbalance / relationship of control in a misguided attempt at feeling close to other people (and all her enablers), i've had a fucked up playbook that i'm still in the process of erasing and revising. i.e., i have to be really mindful about respecting the boundaries of my relationships. it's a bad habit to slip into acting in ways that cross a boundary without asking about that boundary in the first place (or, in most cases, recognizing what that boundary is based on already-received information).

i had a really wonderful conversation with a friend of mine recently. he teaches at a montessori school and works with toddlers. he was talking about how one of the most important things you can start teaching a child is what boundaries are, how to communicate about them, and that ultimately this is a very loving thing to do. it enables little people to begin the process of treating others with respect, which is foundational for love.

arsehole next door trying to set boundaries when he was totally ignoring mine and had been since he moved in.
I do wonder if it was a white privilege thing, ahole trying to make out I wasa subordinate or something.
& his wife is even worse.
Unbelievable shite.

oh yeah boundaries supposedly being set about them having ignored boundaries which was the cause of the situation

When my daughter got into her teens she actually taught me a lot about boundaries and made me think about how the dodgy societal "norms" of parenting need examination and pushback

obv nil illegitimi carborundum and all that :)

(NV taught me that phrase on here many moons ago, it is evergreen)

I don't know how to tell the difference between a healthy boundary and an obscene fortification with a moat filled with alligators. What if your boundaries conflict with the reasonable needs of people you care about? What if the boundaries you need for your mental health are also bad for your mental health?

(being definitely kinda aspie has meant i've been way too self-absorbed, and continue to be on the internet at times, for which i apologise)

however i think it's good for everyone to examine where their boundaries come from, when they're able to modify them, and circumstances where they are not gonna stand for someone's shit (eg mine, lawlz)

(I mean, I guess the answer here is "go back to therapy you idiot")

xp to self

Do we have internal boundaries from ourselves too?

I don't know how to tell the difference between a healthy boundary and an obscene fortification with a moat filled with alligators. What if your boundaries conflict with the reasonable needs of people you care about? What if the boundaries you need for your mental health are also bad for your mental health?

Do we have internal boundaries from ourselves too?

I know I have things I refuse to think about much, even without dragging the unconscious into it

i think one of the things people talk about when they're talking about boundaries is the amount of work they do, have historically done, relative to others in relationships. for instance, i'm a gay man who was raised in a very patriarchal and homophobic church. i.e., i had to do all the psychic work of staying alive, and no one else had to do any work of changing their beliefs and behavior. so coming out of that, i'm particularly sensitive to any hint of "i'm going to have to do the work in this relationship." i guess one of my boundaries is, i won't work for you if you aren't going to work for me?

to the people who are feeling lonely based on hard boundaries they feel like they have to set - i say, it's so hard to do, but it's just so much better for you than not respecting your needs, keep it up, it's worth it in the end.

I don’t know if I have anything concrete to add here yet - other than that I’m extremely conflict averse generally - but thanks for starting this thread; I’ll be thinking on it.

i've been thinking a lot about some extreme boundaries i've had to put into place recently for abusive family (no contact). or rather, you don't get to interact with me x way, and if you do, repeatedly (they do, and have shown that they want to keep it up), then you won't be in my life. i wonder sometimes just how much it's my responsibility to spell all this out to them when i'm frankly just exhausted and need to not talk to them at all. i wish i were able to do that, i'd feel better about all of this, but quite frankly i'm just not.

I know I have things I refuse to think about much, even without dragging the unconscious into it

xp oh, absolutely. of course it's worth it. i just wonder sometimes about the "spelling it out" part. like, did i let them know enough. but then i remember, yes i did. and at this point, really, shouldn't abusive people know that they need to change, at like 65 years old? if they don't know at that point, it isn't my responsibility to give them an essay about it. holding tight to the actual boundary of no communication is so much more important than trying to explain again, which if you think about it, is a form of substituting myself for what is ultimately not my issue to fix.

it's wild how much no-contact with certain people is by far the most loving thing you can give both them and yourself. i can literally feel the space and healing it gives me.

There are definitely internal boundaries. I've had to set both external and internal boundaries to try to stem some of the behaviours & emotional states of borderline personality disorder, but in doing so I've basically become someone displaying the behaviours of avoidant personality disorder, which, y'know, is also not healthy. But maybe less dangerous? Certainly less dangerous for people around me, because now I have almost no people around me ever, hooray.

protecting boundaries is something I have to work hard on, and for me that involves a lot of rehearsal and preparation.

An example: working in retail during the pandemic, I refused to let anyone enter my shop without a mask or an exemption lanyard, and they absolutely had to respect social distancing and keep their mask on, as well as our store/sector-specific guidelines. I was not prepared to risk my or my staff's health so someone can feel slightly more comfortable when we didn't have the choice of staying at home.

The night before re-opening, the end of furlough, I practised out-loud in a mirror saying "I'm going to need you to take a step back." "I'm going to need you to put a mask on." "I'm going to need you to wait outside as we are at our capacity limit." I did this enough times that I could hear my own voice saying it, and how to sound warm and polite, yet assertive and unmovable, ensuring my language and demeanour suggested all this was non-negotionable and also so obvious as to be undeniable. I found this strategy really worked for me, and I encouraged my staff to employ it too, and we had very little pushback on it, thankfully.

But in my everyday life, if I'm not mentally prepared or expecting an encroachment on a boundary I want to maintain, I find it very hard to react quickly and confidently in that moment. If I'm surprised or horrified I find it hard to affirm those limits, and I wish I was better at responding in the moment. I think part of this is not being 100% confident in what my boundaries are and what crossing them will look like. What strategies can I develop around this?

i'm a gay man who was raised in a very patriarchal and homophobic church

omg and speaking of boundaries ... said homophobic church also sucks at respecting the boundary of "I am no longer a member of your church. Please leave me the fuck alone!" ...my ex spent years trying to get them to leave him alone. ... they would send missionaries and church elders to our apartment at like 8am on a Saturday morning.

Anyway, I am glad, map, that you survived.

my ex had some boundaries that were like emil.y's moat of alligators, and that shitty church was part of the reason why

xp aw thanks :) you know, i suspect that in your ex's case, family members may have been playing a part. i've heard it tends to become a problem because the church is obsessed with tracking people and if you have family members letting them know where you have moved to, the harassment never ends. the way i got my name removed from their records was through a lawyer doing pro bono work - iirc, there was language included that stipulated if they were to try contacting me again, there would be legal action. i think that flips a few switches to 'off' internally. anyway, i've never had them try to reach me again, and it's been almost 10 years.

yeah i pretty much classify being raised in these kind of cultlike "churches" (including american evangelism) as abuse.

The night before re-opening, the end of furlough, I practised out-loud in a mirror saying "I'm going to need you to take a step back." "I'm going to need you to put a mask on." "I'm going to need you to wait outside as we are at our capacity limit." I did this enough times that I could hear my own voice saying it, and how to sound warm and polite, yet assertive and unmovable, ensuring my language and demeanour suggested all this was non-negotionable and also so obvious as to be undeniable. I found this strategy really worked for me, and I encouraged my staff to employ it too, and we had very little pushback on it, thankfully.

At the very beginning of the pandemic I thought that grocery stores should have hired all the currently unemployed strip-club bouncers and stationed them at the doors to keep anti-mask fuckos out. But it probably would have erupted into a shooting war in several states.

Re the general topic of the thread, at first I thought it meant boundaries like "don't talk to me through the door when I'm in the bathroom," stuff like that. But it's clearly larger than that.

I've never had a hard time cutting people out of my life, honestly. In fact, it's been the easy option most of the time. My mom had five sisters, four of whom are still alive, and I don't talk to any of them, or my cousins either, for a variety of reasons. (She's not talking to most of them herself, so clearly it's inherited.) Some of them were nasty to my wife early in our marriage, others just brought nothing to the table, and I've kinda always thought, if we weren't related, would I be friends with you? If the answer's no, then so be it. Blood earns you nothing in my book. But I've also gotten pretty lucky in that my parents were never abusive in any way that registered with me - my dad was an asshole, but when I told him I didn't want to see him anymore (my parents divorced when I was 11 or so, and when I was about 16 or so I just stopped going to visit my dad on the weekends) he just said OK. We reconnected a few years later - I lived with him for a year or so after high school - and it was fine. Then we drifted apart again and that was fine, too. We weren't talking when he died, and that drove a wedge between me and my younger brother for a while (he'd stepped into the breach and become Daddy's favorite), but that didn't last. Now I talk to my brother a few times a year, and my mom a couple of times a month. And my brother hasn't talked to my mom in years, and she never asks me about him. So...we're all fucked up, but we're all good with it, I guess?

i posted this on the working from home thread a few days ago but it's something along the lines of this thread topic

I am currently "on vacation" ... I am not going anywhere but it's like, how do I say "I am taking this time to not work" ... anyway, so a client texts me saying they have a question about a thing and want to get my advice on the thing. I respond "I am on vacation." Client asks, "can I schedule a time to discuss when you are back from vacation?" ... I kinda don't grasp how "scheduling a work appointment" does not fall under the general category of "work" which is excluded from the current status of "taking this time to not work" ... I have not taken more than 3 days in a row off work since 2015. I don't want to get bitchy with clients I generally like, but ...

I saw that and thought the right approach probably would have been to reply to the first email with "I'm on vacation - email me about this on [day you're planning on being back from vacation]" and then *ignore any subsequent emails*.

this was my response to the two clients that emailed me today! thank you ILX

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time, i’m lucky in that my attitude is reflected by my boss, who also doesn’t want me to think about work at all when i’m not working. but i’m also very lazy and a great way for me to feel miserable is to feel like my job is taking up too much of my time and attention, and jobs that have forced me into this position have been short-lived. moreover we must embrace the four-hour workday, etc.

boundaries with family are a lot more fluid which can suck, but again, i’m very lucky, no one i regularly talk to (mom, dad, stepdad) is much of a boundary overstepper. i can’t remember the last time i had a friend who did either. maybe i have good boundaries, i’m just unconscious of them most of the time??? i also think some of my boundaries are trauma-produced, like the moment i feel like a relationship is getting anywhere close to passive aggression or shame-based verbal abuse i’m just out, goodbye

i suck very bad at communication and i’m very conflict-avoidant though

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time

part of me wants to collectively determine which the most boundariless industries are, but the better me feels like that would lead to harmful conflicts.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

^^^^^^^

A few years before my dad died I was visiting with my daughter - she was always feisty and headstrong and sometimes difficult to deal with but I'm allowed to say that, it was clear my dad had a huge problem with her and a lot of that problem was because she wasn't behaving like he thought a girl should. Dick. And something happened and he lost his rag and started having a go at her and when I told him to mind his business he actually fronted up to me, right up to my face and it was funny and heartbreaking and enraging in equal measure

And I walked out of there and we got the next train home and I would have never spoken to the cunt again and after a fortnight he had to swallow his pride and call me and apologise - probably at my mom's prodding - and I never had that kinda trouble off him again, hooray for setting a boundary

i think about my first ltr sometimes and how it ended in a painful way because i was just never able to straight up say "we aren't having sex as often as i would like" and proceed from there.

xp i feel like "do goodism" is a cover for boundary problems in the workplace. non profits, small businesses seem like a haven for them ime.

xxp yeah the real answer is "work, period"

God yeah non profits I've known encourage some absolutely terrible abuse of work/life balance

why i will never be in a "helping" role ever again. the only way i could establish effective boundaries was to quit.

hooray for setting a boundary

Yeah Han is not at all cuddly and it took me a while I guess to figure that out. Having said that she will still encourage me to scratch her feet if we're hanging at home

Oops boundaries soz

I built such an impenetrable boundary between me and my biological dad that I wouldn't even visit him when he was dying of throat cancer because fuck it lol I was watching a 2nd leg playoff game in the pub. My mum didn't put any pressure on me to visit him but did suggest I might regret it when he's gone, but I didn't. I don't know if this is an interpretation of boundaries in the spirit of this thread, but sometimes I believe they are often a healthy way of avoiding unnecessary conflict and unhappiness because there is already plenty enough of that shit to go around.

at my old job I would have to deal with kids a lot. One of my methods for building rapport and trust before what can seem scary to kids is to offer a high-five, and ask some questions about school or anything they had with them eg what games were they playing on the DS. But any kid has the right to say "I don't want a high-five" or not answer questions from a stranger, and that's fine, it doesn't bother me: ultimately my goal was to make the experience easy and pleasant for the kid where possible.

The amount of parents and grandparents who would chastise their kids for not wanting to do a high-five was unreal. I would instantly say "it's up to them, I don't mind!" and yet they would insist. I can't play along with that because it's not fair to anyone. The way we teach kids about consent and permission can be so unreal - you must go high-five the stranger in the shop, or hug your smelly uncle, or play with the neighbourhood kid who pulls your hair... and then we wonder why people struggle to say No at the moment necessary.

Huge otm

Shit dads can fuck off, even if they're dead. And in my experience you don't regret putting that boundary in place (in my situation I am glad I met up with him once before he died but also glad I didn't try to do so more frequently, fuck that noise). Solidarity to everyone in the shit dead dad crew.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, December 29, 2021 11:23 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

this is apparently one of the appealing factors of civil service for some people. There are plenty of people employed in bureaucratic government jobs that show up, punch the clock, do their tasks, get a generous amount of flex time and paid time off, and leave on time. for a while when I was growing up, my mom was a mail carrier. She went in, sorted the mail, put it in her vehicle, delivered the mail, dropped off the undeliverables at the post office, went home. People on her mail route did not call her at home. Her supervisor didn't call her on her days off.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

xp to boxedjoy absolutely! that was part of the conversation with a childcare worker friend i was having the other day. he was telling me that he thought the reason why so many kids are poorly behaved little shits is that their parents treat them as these accessories who are forced to play a role, rather than human beings with agency that needs to be respected. and they act it out all the time.

Can confirm a good civil service job is sweeet

also certain trades ... like this one contractor my org works with, Tony the plumber ... Tony isn't going to show up whenever we want him to. Tony is going to work during Tony's schedule, and will pass on jobs that he doesn't want to do. While he gets paid to deal with literal shit, Tony seems to have a pleasant work/life balance.

yup, much improved mental health in a bureaucratic job

i'm still mad at my parents for making me hug relatives i didn't care about

I realized after posting that I have much more complicated thoughts about my own relationship with boundaries than I relayed in my post. I withheld them bc…lol boundaries. It’s a fraught topic for me and has been as long as I can remember. I’m not ready to get into it publicly so I shouldn’t have posted.
I’m still mad at my parents too fwiw.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

I would prefer to live in a world where my neighbour having children didn't impact on me. But i think that is true with a lot of things.
LIke also seating arrangements on buses back from airports where a family freaks out because i don't like their kid continually kicking the seat I'm in which i picked because i had more legroom since the emergency exit was in front of it.
Or the idiots pushing prams and pushchairs around teh park here . One path that's like 2metres wide or something . So there is space for 2 people to walk by in different directions when necessary. & then I get a bunch of women with prams taking up one sid eof teh path and one idiot walking down the other side. I'm now wondering how total;ly racist taht idea was. like any black person walking in their direction needed to be dealt with instead of them recognising other people use the park.
Or a couple of days ago a father pushing a kid on a wheeled something, possibly horse . he's looking at a football match going on on the park the path's next to and not watching where he's pushing things so the wheeled thing veers right across teh path. I stop way before him because i can see taht he's doing that. I say Excuse me and he doesn't even seem to cop on. NOt sure if taht was the distance or just ignorance. I had stopped way before him because i saw what he was doing. But really one path so should be watching what he's doing. Not my kid and it is my legs that they would have been shoved into.
Ex-gf has a major issue with people not watching where they're going because looking at phones which I definitely share. BUt she makes a vocal thing of it when we're walking around together.

Very badly designed layout of this building. 2 apartments on the top of 4 flights of stairs. The other door is right at the top of the stairs . Ignorant shits who live there decided when they move din taht the bin arrangements didn't suit them so they would just dump rubbish outside their door which I had to walk over. PLus the guy there started leaving his bike on a narrow landing that one really needed all of to navigate.
THis is the same pair who continually leave the street door unlocked despite the landlord having told them not to. & the wife there who i serioulsy wonder what the deal is with and after reading Caste wonder if that is the issue. But I'm not lower caste tahn a delusional idiot who likes to throw lit cigarettes at people or is stupid enough to go out without a key then blame the othe rperson living there if she can't get back into the building. Got this revolting note from this headcase 5 years ago askjing if i was mad cos she had to go to th etrouble of getting her husband from work. I mean I wonder what the story is on boundaries there. like white polish headcase views hers to be sacred and mine to be non existent.
& then earlier thsi year she decidees I'm not allowed to have a paper delivered for some reason. I had had the thing delivered for years before tehy arrived. & she just decides taht if i didn't go down until it suited me to do so it was up to her to dispose of the thing.
Also she messed around with my mail for no good reason , brought a letter addressed to me up and tehn didn't think it suite dher to take it back down and put it back where she got it froml. I found it propped up againsta back wall on the ground floor after it had floated back down there. Annoying?
& then she called teh police on me twice for no good reason once because I was annoyed she was gaslighting me over the thing with the paper. After which I get attacked buy the husband. Standing outside my door threatening me which I should have told the police when tehy arrived.
Instead of which I had to put up with hi eavesdropping as i talked to teh police and getting annoyed taht I pointed out I was the victim. Oh & during which he started going on about me crossing a line, like he had any recognition of line. I just think racist idiot.

Further to that i suspect they are anti vaxxers and she has insisted on standing at the top of teh stairs smoking throughout the pandemic. has absolutely no idea of social distancing which is impossible if she is standing there. hate that i think it's a common thing, an idiot standing at the bottleneck point of a path or corridor or whatever so it is impossible to keep any distance from them. I guess the main thrust of the thing is more about keeping that distance for any length of time but still seems so totally ignorant to do so.

& this idiot woman is working behind the food counter of teh locaol convenience store. Do hope that does mean she was forced to get a jab but really since she does seem to be one of the bolshier idiots I've ever met I do wonder.

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

― imago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You will break this because you are a dick.

Navigating boundaries with some couples can be tricky. In my family I have a sister who I feel I used to know, but now talks in terms of 'we like this/we believe/we hate x, we're doing x' to such an extent that I don't feel I even know her. Every text or message from her feels like a press statement issued on behalf of her and her husband.

Having a conversation or getting her genuine views seems impossible.

during a family dinner outing my older brother casually mentioned he was thinking about buying a motorcycle. my mom gasped 'but i'd be so worried about you!'. my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'. i learned a lot right then and it helped steer the next few years of my life

sorry misedited the first text I sent today.
My problem with teh women with prams was, 1 pram takes up half teh path. There were like 3 prams in a row and one of their group was pushing a pram down the other side of the same path = entire path space taken up by the one group of people with nowhere to walk for anybody else without them walking on muddy grass. & it seemed intentional. Which is like mindless.
Path is there for all of public. I've also been in this area longer tahn a lot of people. I remember that park as wasteland which it was for the first couple of years i was living here.

JUst like bums me out like.

& i do reada lot of books like caste and see my past experiences reflected in ways i probably should have seen at the time. Not just thought this is a bit unjust, how pushy. Or maybe taht is what you do wind up with anyway. Unless you can get some leverage in teh moment to stop it happening or find a way to find it less annoying . & i think you just wind up thinkingthat privileged people are scum anyway unless they actively work against taking as much advantage of it or at least spread the leverage around to those marginalised etc

i can see what gyac means about the dog thing lol

but the conflict avoidant thing can be rough to deal with as someone who is instinctively more of a "let's just get everything out in the open and resolve things with goodwill and respect" person. ... like the thing where some people will tell "you" that they are not upset or that your behavior is "fine" and then flash forward to months or years later and it turns out they were upset! It wasn't fine! And then the "moat of alligators" seems like a very reasonable approach tbh.

I feel like a lot of relationship problems (including romantic, family, friends, professional) are based on differences regarding approaches to conflict. Then throw in unequal power dynamics, and things can be super toxic (especially for the person/people who are already less powerful due to gender, age, race, etc.). Yeah, this is somewhat contradictory to the first paragraph I wrote. There is definitely a tendency for people who are the "less powerful" ones or even just had formative experiences as a child with a parent where they were "less powerful" ... for people to be conflict avoidant and not communicate that they do/did feel harmed by another's behavior.

Conflict avoidance is a bear to surmount when you're raised in an environment filled to the brim with toxic conflict and you subsequently come to assess all conflict as toxic. And even fully understanding that that's a fucked perspective doesn't instantly unfuck the wiring. It's apparently just a lifelong process of unfucking. I mean, hats off to anyone who has it licked but I for one still have a long row to hoe.

my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

Like, worrying over does not equal caring about someone. Makes me think of the bit in "Hamlet 2" where the one girl learns of something bad happening to someone and her immediate reaction is "why is this happening to me???"

A fantastic line, genuinely think of it all the time

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

i think he was only able to utter it thanks to therapy, but it's been very instructive esp when it comes to dealing with my very well meaning and frankly sweet + nice parents. but you still have to, not TELL them, but *suggest* they fuck off now and then. it's a good ability. plus 150 XP any time you scorn your aging parents

I wish I'd had that line to hand 30 years ago

a friend today told me they can't use their laundry machine cos she is in a unit next to the main unit, and the main unit is occupied by someone who tested positive for COVID.

she needed to do it this afternoon before her shift. I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

uh, because my mother is in the midst of a huge load of laundry that won't be done for hours. otherwise I would have.

I offer to help all of the time, this particular time it wasn't really convenient, mom would have to take out scores of wet clothes and wait hours to dry them.

Have you learned something from not making other people’s problem your problem from this incident?

is this friend someone who you are currently having sex with or would like to have sex with if living situations were different?

Sorry if that question is crass, but it is a factor in setting/maintaining boundaries imo and lol ime

I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

Not sure this is a boundary issue as much as poor communication. She’d have done better to ask directly on the first place rather than hinting. And the answer sounds a bit brusque.

But it’s urgent and key that we know the details of the sexual relationship status ( and intentions )of all your friends and acquaintances.

xp she sounds like a dose tbqh, someone getting brusque over your own needs coming first like that = their problem, not yours

gyac otm

Seconded. Feel like the thread should be called Boundaries: Why are they so bad and hated difficult?

The thread title is fine, you can discuss your inability to keep boundaries, everyone has had this difficulty at some point usually.

It's a work in progress.

I divide all my friends into “would smash” and “uggo” so I can set the proper boundaries. Simple as.

A fine, time-honored approach.

you only have two categories?!

Really glad the thread has turned into this

i was merely trying to think of any reason why this would not be a clear cut "not my problem" situation, and sexual interest is the only thing I came up with ... sorry.

i will get me coat ...

to question above, can't really say I learned anything if I keep doing the same thing over and over, can I?

bullying and intimidation through formative years led me to be a doormat, I made gains in the opposite direction in my early 30s, but stress and declining self-esteem kind of erased those gains.

at least seeing everybody's reaction that my response wasn't irrational helps because I don't even have that anymore as a center.

Building self esteem for yourself takes a while but when you do it, it lasts longer than external validation IMO and the start of it in my experience is setting your boundaries and making people aware of them - saying no, not putting other peoples needs first, not setting yourself on fire for others to be warm. It’s difficult to do but you can look yourself in the mirror. Good luck with it.

Of course part of that can be learning to recognise that you have boundaries and that you're entitled to them

yeah, external validation is kinda like taking a pain reliever for a chronic problem that needs like, surgery. definitely going to be my biggest goal in 2022 is getting away from that.

Yeah sorry, that’s a hugely important point to make

xp good luck with it, cut them all loose IMO and you will do better for it

i think often, and i'm not necessarily saying this is the case with neanderthal's recent story, often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange. i'm thinking specifically of the case with my parents. they kept giving me stuff well into my adulthood, and because i already had a hard time becoming an independent adult, it kept me dependent and in the boundary-crossing relationship for much too long.

i think it's worth reflecting on what you might be getting out of relationships where you seem to be the one whose boundaries are crossed. there are needs there, but you aren't meeting them this way.

That’s a great post map and so fully agree

often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange.

yeah, and this scenario is something that can be considered normal in a professional context. Like, if you work in a service profession, there's the classic difficult customer who gives you a big tip. And part of me wants to say, that's okay, if that's just your job and you can shrug it off at the end of the day. However, it shouldn't extend the same way into your personal life.

I think I tend towards the moat of alligators, and so an abundance of boundaries (qualitative not quantative, its not like a list just a state of mind) can be my disfunction. Where I try to address this mostly is with other people who I have to realise are warmer and more open in their natural temperament than me. So the proper and loving thing to do is to warm up.
I guess I realise I act as if there is a simple equation between: boundaries = cold, absence of boundaries = warm. I know I am simplifying something there, but my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches. Anyone have any experience of productively reducing some boundaries: how/andwhy?
My wife is the other way around which is very good. She could do with more boundaries and I need to open up more. I think we have significantly helped each other out.

my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches.

yep, that's my background as well, especially in terms of family stuff. I set boundaries with my family from a ... fairly young age, actually.

I was texting with my younger cousin a month or so ago about why I wasn't a flower girl at her parents wedding. I was 6 or 7 when her parents got married, so, perfect flower girl age. My aunt asked her sister, my mom, whether I would be a flower girl. My mom said yes. No one asked me if I wanted to be a flower girl. ... This goes back to the child as property topic.... I don't remember when my mother informed me about my flower girl role, but I think it wasn't that far in advance of the wedding (which I think was expedited due to my aunt's pregnancy ... I don't think she was secretive about the fact she was pregnant, she just didn't want to be visibly pregnant in the pictures). And I was offended that I wasn't asked if I wanted to be a flower girl. Yeah, it was kinda bratty. But I felt like I deserved the same respect an adult would receive about something like that. ... So I said no. Not gonna do it. I don't remember how long my mother and I argued about this, but it was long enough so that she realized that I was not going to back down without some serious disciplinary escalation. And my mother decided that it wasn't worth it. (There would be plenty of other things where she decided it was worth disciplinary escalation, but not this one.) So, fortunately, my uncle-to-be had a 3 year old niece who was not opposed to being a flower girl, so they had the one flower girl, and that's just the way it was, and I don't think anyone bore any real resentment about it.

I was the same, I was a terror at school because I refused to be treated any less than an adult would wrt respect. Not so much at home because my parents did treat me with respect from as young as I can remember and I sincerely love them for it. Even though I am very strong on not treating kids as property, I've realised later in life that brattiness is definitely real and good parenting doesn't just ignore it wholesale. Sounds like your mum was good at picking her battles though.
I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents? Mine were crazy strict on never ever lying to us (they didn't even mention Santa Claus as kids), strong personalities that valued integrity highly.

I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents?

Well, first off, my parents were/are mentally stable and had no substance abuse problems and there wasn't any domestic violence between them. Viewing my parents as reasonable and safe was definitely a key aspect for my assertiveness, I'm sure. Though there was definite strictness when it came to other adults and being "in public" ... I think it instilled in me the sense that I can only be "myself" with people who loved me, and that I had to assume a certain role with everyone else. I probably posted about this in some other thread that both LL and I are on, but, when I was about 8, my grandfather went into politics, and we had to attend a number of social functions as the "warm, loving family" and it was very important that I behave and dress appropriately at those, and of course, smile!

Sarahell yr story made me think about why I’m pretty rabid about my boundaries - I wasn’t allowed any at all, until I left home. My mum stayed at home with my two younger siblings till I was 13 and then I was expected to take over most over the cooking, as well as babysitting after school (I was 7-10yrs older than my sibs), household chores etc. And my parents would loan me out on babysitting duty without asking me. Then I started working 20+hrs p/week from 15-18 on top of that (9hr shifts Saturday and Sunday, a 4hr shift on a weekday, plus 9hr shifts every statutory holiday). I honestly felt burnt out by the time I got to college.

Now I don’t do any-fucking-thing I don’t want to. If I feel any type of emotional pressure or manipulation in a friendship I’m out. If you have any kind of expectations of my time and energy, we’re not gonna be friends.

I think I got my first real taste of boundary setting when at 21 I realized I didn’t actually have to keep up a relationship with my asshole older brother (9yrs older). I didn’t even say anything - I just ghosted him after a particularly bad incident where he said some really cruel shit to me. It’s been 20yrs and I’ve literally said 10 words to him (only bc my mum tried to violate my boundary after I’d clearly stated it and tricked me - jokes on her tho bc it was so awkward for everyone that she hasn’t tried it again). As far as I know he’s never asked anyone why I cut ties and he’s never tried to initiate contact with me (which says a lot about the state of things as they were).

Since then I’ve been pretty fuckin slapdash with cutting off friends and family, tbh. Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

It bugs me that I have so little control over my environment that I am stuck with neighbours I'd rather not know exist.
That and having the shared space between me and where things delivered to me are delivered , letters, papers etc. I once had mail at least coming in through teh door of teh flat until it was found that fire regulations hadn't been complied with and they had to replace teh doors without letterboxes.
I think I actually may have been advised to take the flat taht didn't open onto the top of the stairs but in doing so I opened myself to have some mindless idiot decide that they owned taht space at teh top of teh stairs and could block me in by parking bikes in the way or leaving rubbish there.
I think those may be criteria one has to be aware of when choosing a space. & wish I could choose my neighbours but you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

*sigh* yeah

Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

this made me lmao, for real

a concept my friend put me onto this year, something I knew about for years but didn't know it had a name. This phenomenon seems relevant to the non-enforcement of boundaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

anybody have a "missing stair" in their life? I used to, don't anymore. but when they're family, harder to get rid of (fortunately mine were just friends).

lol "missing stair" basically describes my boss

part of my job entails literally fixing missing stairs, while working with groups where there are metaphorical missing stairs ...

the project I've been working on for the past 8 months or so was initially blocked by a metaphorical missing stair ... who finally got removed from the building (partly stemming from an online interaction where I challenged this guy) ... anyway, turned out dude was a hoarder and had been doing his hoarding inside this building, which was totally against the code of conduct.

I’m the daughter of a mother who had narcissistic personality disorder and was a raging alcoholic. Many many people would have set boundaries but it was something I was totally unable to do for many reasons including that I loved her very much. I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this. I really need to get better at this because it makes life so hard but I struggle with it so much. I’m an EA so that’s probably the worst position for me to have because I say yes to everything and get walked all over. Anyway, interesting thread. Will keep reading.

I also find the idea of someone not liking me or being mad at me intolerable. It’s a terrible combination of things which result in me never sticking up for myself ever. :/

I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this.

do you feel like this is who you are because of the way your mom was, or do you feel like this is something innate to *you* regardless of your mom's problematic behavior?

ENBB I have that problem too. it is hard to stand up for yourself when your goal is not to be true to yourself but to preserve harmony with other people. and yet, one can know this and still not be able to avoid feeling this way (case in point...me).

it's kind of infuriating because I thought I had licked the problem. in my 20s, because I was unmedicated (and badly needed anxiety meds), and didn't have a lot of friends, I tended to be very paranoid about abandonment (for no discernable reason - nobody had 'abandoned' me before). then I got medicated and I was actually suddenly very good about boundaries, accepting people wouldn't like me at times, and not being afraid to be 'vulnerable'.

it's basically the reason I got promoted, I had a tough exterior, didn't mind being direct without being nasty, and people at work got annoyed at my demands and I didn't care, I didn't lose sleep at night.

one frustrating breakup and a 2 year period of extreme, overwhelming stress at work and I went back to my bad habits and haven't kicked them since. mostly because the stress never subsided. immediately after the 2 year period at work subsided, my dad dropped a bombshell on my brother and I that he wanted to move in with us and they were moving back to Florida, they got themselves in financial ruin, Pulse happened, Trump happened....like there's been no respite.

i also feel like gender expectations play a role in "people pleasing" tendencies? Like, I am conscious that I learned that behavior (the hard way) because it was how women were supposed to be, and a certain amount of it is engrained at this point. Obviously considering there are cis-men who are "people pleasers" ... it isn't entirely gendered.

xpost some of it possibly due to my dad, as I've mentioned before, I love him dearly (I mean lord knows I talk about him all the time), and he mellowed out in his 50s-60s which helped our relationship immensely, but it was testy in my youth and teens because he was a screamer as a kid, and his voice was so loud and booming he terrified us at times, sometimes flying off the handle for unfair/inconsistent reasons.

I still get anxiety hearing someone moving about in living room areas in strange houses because there were times I'd hear my dad poking around the living room and if he saw something he didn't like, he'd often barrel into the room and scream at us.

(he wasn't abusive, he didn't hit, but sometimes he just needed to be mindful that he was a big man with a big voice and we were 4 feet tall and timid).

so on days where I didn't make him mad and he didn't yell, I felt happy that I "pleased" him and avoided being yelled at.

I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this.

do you feel like this is who you are because of the way your mom was, or do you feel like this is something innate to *you* regardless of your mom's problematic behavior?

― sarahell, Wednesday, January 5, 2022 3:31 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Good question. I have to think about it because I honestly don’t know. Probably a combination of both but definitely a lot of her influence. I wasn’t allowed to question anything she said ever and I constantly had to do things to keep the peace and not upset her etc.

"having to keep the peace", trying to avoid a fight/calamity early in life can definitely manifest itself later in life, for sure

Yeah - absolutely.

weirdly I just had an argument w/ teh same friend I had above and held my ground calmly and without budging. idk why it was so easy today, maybe i've just stopped giving a fuck this week.

I don’t think I’ve ever not apologized first to someone after an argument and usual I’m not remotely sorry - I just hate worrying that people are mad at me so much.

it's hard too cos eventually resentment at not supporting oneself can lead to overcompensating the other way.

I didn't have that problem til the pandemic. Now when people are mad at me I try to be a diplomat at first even if I'm not wrong because I just genuinely hate fighting, but if they needle me again after that I have a tendency to explode with a level of rage not exactly warranted by the infraction. and then I feel ugly and feel extremely guilty for injuring that person, because even though they WERE wrong, they probably didn't deserve that level of response.

(I'm not abusive but I tend to flood the person with all of the things they've done to infuriate me, like I'm George Costanza's dad)

imo it’s not just boundaries between you and other ppl that you need to build and maintain but also between you and certain things in the world. I see it playing out big time with the pandemic - ppl inundating themselves with news, research, other’s opinions. Like I get wanting to be informed but there needs to be a boundary between having the knowledge to keep yourself safe and seeking out so much knowledge that you’re not keeping yourself *mentally* safe.

My husband was coming to me every day to repeat all this terrible covid stuff he was reading online, working up his anxiety - and fucking with MY boundary around covid news. I asked him what exactly he was getting out of this info that he couldn’t get from just following one reliable source and checking in with that source once a week.

Xpost booming post

And my newest area of dev

that rings so true, I just did there reading COVID story after COVID story with no purpose

I do the same thing with hurricanes and election forecasts

Definitely have to put up a lot of boundaries on social media, and it’s always kind of creeping over them. Huge list of muted words on twitter, carefully selected and small group of fb friends. I’ve just started using insta and I’m going to have to set some boundaries / stick to some rules there too, it gets me in an overwhelmed scrolling daze too often.

it’s not just boundaries between you and other ppl that you need to build and maintain but also between you and certain things in the world

totally! I used to be like "let me find out as much as I can about x thing that will make me angry / anxious so that I will know" mostly in terms of professional or scene stuff, and now, I think it was because of some awesome hilarious post by estela on a breakup thread about how there are six million other people in the world who are not your ex, and most of them don't know you or your ex (I am not doing the post justice here), and I realized ... the vast majority of people do not care whether so-and-so got this grant and I didn't, or arts org I don't work for is getting accolades for having some show people think is cool. I can exist quite pleasantly not being reminded of how awesome people who aren't me are.

The age of the internet is this v fine balance between helpful and harmful. Like, being Very Online has taught me so much about race, feminism, politics, mental health stuff - all kinds of important shit I would’ve never learned about otherwise. But it also can absolutely bombard you with all the negative shit in the world. I’m very aware of how cops are killing Black ppl - do I need to watch every video of every murder? I knew trump was a dangerous fuckhead - did I need to read every one of his ridiculous tweets? You gotta be aware when you’ve reached the limit of useful knowledge and are just into a kind of morbid, obsessive curiosity.

But I’m also not prone to obsessing and I find it easy to compartmentalize. I know it can be much harder for some ppl.

As for people pleasing, i try to think: do I actually want this person to like me, or will they be a drain on my energy if I go along to get along? But I’m pretty introverted - I don’t like a lot of social interaction bc it’s tiring - do the PPs in this thread consider themselves leaning more towards introvert or extrovert? I’m curious if there’s a correlation there.

Extrovert for me

A big issue when trying to set boundaries for myself is that "acting outside yr comfort zone" is so often pushed as a positive thing - obv. at work, but also in my personal life: I think as an introvert I have kind of accepted the idea that it is still something I shd be getting over or growing out of, and putting myself out there will somehow improve me.

Something that really helped me w/r/t social media was running a record label’s Twitter account. We followed our artists, and a couple of accounts that provided relevant, reliable news about the music, and that was it. We had thousands of followers but didn’t follow any of them back; they were the audience.

I have close to 4000 Twitter followers myself, but am only following a couple of hundred people, and only interact with about a dozen people there, having actual conversations, sharing jokes, etc. The rest of those people are my audience. They care what I think/say (or they wouldn’t be following me), but I feel no obligation to reciprocate.

I am a people pleaser to the core. I grew up in a house where the threat of violence - physical, mental, emotional - was constantly in the air, and I learned the safest way to proceed around that was to do what was necessary rather than what was best for me. I'll be the first to admit that I am hypersensitive to shifts in moods and atmosphere, and will naturally assume that if someone is in a bad mood then it is my fault, rather than them just simply being in a bad mood, and I will find myself reaching to change that bad mood instead of letting them sit with it. When we left that household, I was then expected to be primary caregiver for my younger brother, because my mother had "suffered enough" and "deserved a chance to be happy" and I was basically forced into it via a mix of emotional and financial blackmail. Add into that, being a camp gay man and learning how to self-police your own behaviours, actions, what you reveal about yourself for safety - I have spent massive chunks of my life being completely malleable in my identity in the name of self-protection. Being conflict-averse for many people isn't just about keeping the peace, it's the very real threat of the consequences if you don't.

The thing about people-pleasing is that so often you're trying to win the respect and approval of people who aren't ever going to give you it anyway. As I get older, I'm getting better at saying No to people, but it's not my natural response. I practice it a lot - saying the words out loud in the mirror before saying them to the person, so it sounds natural and confident coming from me. That's really helped me with asserting boundaries: thinking of what good behaviour looks like, then practicing it until it becomes more instinctive.

In my early 20s I spent a lot of time hanging out with people I had very little in common with, doing activities I had very little interest in, and not enjoying the things I wanted to do, certainly not with other people. My boundaries of what I would put up with, what I would go along with, what I would tolerate - it was so low, because I wanted to be liked and part of a social group. Now I'm older and I have more self-confidence/self-belief I am really quick to just Nope out of things, and if people resent me for that then that's fine because that's not someone I need in my life, and I'm certainly not going to insist on people doing things just to please me. It sounds really basic, but saying to my pals eg "I'm not into horror movies so I'm going to sit this one out" hasn't meant I've become excommunicated from the group, it just means they do something I'm not part of, but it took me so long to get to a point where I felt comfortable with that happening.

For boundaries to work, you have to enforce them, and I think that's often the hardest part. If you don't answer your phone to someone nine times, and then pick up on the tenth, you've not enforced a boundary - you've merely taught them that persistence works and you'll give in. I went no-contact with my mother roughly five years ago, and it's been hard. Not because I want to speak to her, but because I've had to do the practical and logistical work of boundary setting - blocked phone numbers and social media, email re-directs, shutting down any insinuation from extended family that I might want to engage with her. It doesn't work if there's a modicum of doubt over where the boundary lies.

The concept of "the missing stair" really has shaped the way I view a lot of stuff. About five or six years ago I took a promotion to a branch that had a terrible reputation, with the suggestion that I would be the right person to manage and motivate the team into a healthier place. I realised quickly that the team was made entirely of missing stairs - guys who were at best "sleazy", a woman who refused to carry out instructions for tasks she didn't enjoy doing that were nonetheless necessary, people who were turning up hungover regularly and being rewarded for it with easy non-customer-facing work. Every time I asked the question "why are we putting up with this?" I was told "that's just what they are like." I didn't have the power to get rid of these missing stairs, and I realised that as long as no change would be forthcoming in attitude or behaviour or team make-up, then whoever was in the role was doomed to fail, so I quickly retreated. Since then, in both work and my personal life, I've always asked the question about things that don't seem to work: "why are we putting up with this?" and if I can't get a good answer or make a change, I get myself out of it as quickly as possible.

boxedjoy your situation in the last paragraph is very familiar, definitely felt that same pain! from a direct report who refused to meet deadlines and who inexplicably was never disciplined despite doing it across 3 years and multiple project managers, and leaders of the department warning other project managers "she's somewhat of an issue". like....do something!

regarding doomscrolling...

it really does present as addiction in some ways, not to like 'drugs', but things like candy, that make you sick.

It starts positively - during any kind of emergency or emerging situation, you acquire knowledge that hasn't made it to the press yet, you are informed more regularly throughout the day, and you can even share a few cool pointers with your friends and seem knowledgeable.

Problem is, it's only like that sporadically. The more you dig, the harder it is to find new, novel information, easier to find harsh in-fighting amongst people as to what is really happening, so then you dive in further. And at that point, it can become easy to shut out the world around you - where hours pass and you barely notice, or people trying to get your attention and you can't focus on them.

and the more you do it, the easier it is to adopt a negative bias, where you are more likely to believe 'negative' information than positive. and due to the prescriptivism present across a lot of social media, you can feel pressured into thinking you're "irresponsible" for holding the wrong opinion, or become convinced that public knowledge on a subject is currently "wrong".

There were people during the last hurricane that sort of impacted Central Florida who were outright telling people to ignore the National Hurricane Center's latest guidance, and referring people to amateur analysis, or worse, offering their own amateur analysis, leading people to panic and freak out, when of course, the hurricane wound up skirting us altogether and giving us at worst an extra day off during the week.

Likewise, there's lots of 'shame' language that can actually be controlling the more you doomscroll. People who hold contrary opinions to the more incendiary "experts" (i.e., the ones who tend to use their daily news-shares to build their brand as opposed to actually, y'know, help) are called "minimizers". "you're a COVID minimizer!", "you're downplaying the hurricane!", "you're overconfident in the polls and are going to hurt turnout with this messaging".

One prominent Twitter abuser, Dr Kim Prather, one of the many insane members of the #covidisairborne hashtag cult, accuses other Tweeters of putting "thousands of lives at risk" for other experts who offer advice contrary to hers. (pro-tip - if you find you MUST Twitter scroll for pandemic info, avoid her, Jose-Luis Jimenez, Denise Dewald, Anthony J Leonardi, and any other members of the #covidisairborne cult. COVID *is* airborne, but they are basically internet bullies who sic their followers on people they either disagree with or minimize their experience in their field and completely thrive on panic and histrionic language, which breeds more doomscrolling).

I've been getting clowned on here for my doomscrolling and it's not without merit, it's just - not the easiest thing to do when you're hunkered down all day. I avoided doomscrolling pre-pandemic because...I went out and lived life, I did things. I went to bars, concerts, theater productions, comedy shows, hung out with friends, filled the time up that I would do these harmful things with positive things. Much harder to do that now, so bad habits die hard.

I had managed to stop doomscrolling completely in October/November, but once Omicron whispers began, I started that very day and have only started to manage to start 'reducing' the habit in the last week. but haven't kicked it.

There is also the illusion of a moral imperative to doomscroll - this fallacious thinking that if you are NOT keeping up with the latest information, you are ill-informed and irresponsible or not taking it seriously. But being someone who has had his brain rot from weeks and weeks of doing this, there is absolutely no nobility in rotting your own brain to know approximately 0.33% more information than everybody else knows, information that might be complete bullshit unless you're an expert that can ascertain for themselves. There's no nobility in making yourself miserable.

Obviously that hasn't stopped me from DOING it, but at least in the last week I've been able to tell myself "wouldn't you rather do something else?".

I find 'boundaries' a very amorphous concept. It feels useful, but I'm not sure the meaning stays the same across different contexts (personal, work, family, online/social media) where the sense of 'self' can differ.

For boundaries to work, you have to enforce them...

Many relationships seem to have more complicated arrangements than the Northern Ireland protocol, and with a greater variety of 'no hard border' and 'backstop' solutions, and protracted negotiations and threats to trigger unilateral dissolution.

Congratulations, that’s the stupidest post yet itt

Thanks - I take my plaudits where I can find them!

I guess you’d have to.

I've been getting clowned on here for my doomscrolling and it's not without merit, it's just - not the easiest thing to do when you're hunkered down all day. I avoided doomscrolling pre-pandemic because...I went out and lived life, I did things. I went to bars, concerts, theater productions, comedy shows, hung out with friends, filled the time up that I would do these harmful things with positive things. Much harder to do that now, so bad habits die hard.

I keep a stack of books within arm's reach. Annoyed by Twitter? Dive into a collection of art criticism essays! I know it sounds like telling a kid, "Oh, you're hungry? You don't need cookies — we have carrot sticks and hummus!" But consciously finding something else to read, something that requires you to put your phone or laptop down to read it, really does work sometimes.

Journal writing has also been useful for me cos it forces me to get to the bottom of the reason I’m doing it

i just got a new book too from a friend who was worried about me (not a book ABOUT anything mental health wise, lol, it's a Sopranos book), so there's an idea.

creativity is another thing I sometimes try, to write spoken word or play my guitar, but lately my hand has been cramping worse than ever when I play instruments. not the usual 'hand cramp' yo uget when you haven't played in a while, one time I felt the pain for a half hour after.

hope the 'ritis isn't hitting my hands too, got a lil in my feet

Theres boundaries between doomscrolling (which like wanking isnt anyone else's business) and immediately bringing anything you find, in longwind form, across multiple posts, to every possible thread you can think to post it on (which like wanking in a shared space, isnt cool even if two or three of the dozen others there are telling you its cool carry on)

y'know you can always unbookmark the thread, dude

rather than staying in it to constantly police the type of content that goes into it

Real boundaries are the opposite of amorphous. They’re hard lines you explicitly decide on and they’re about respect for yourself, respect for others. Obviously you don’t have the exact same boundaries for everyone - eg it’s ok for my sister to FaceTime me whenever she wants without texting first but it’s not ok for my boss to ever FaceTime me.

yeah and for boundaries to work you have to actually enforce them, because the types of people who actually are the reason we have boundaries are the type that will hear you say "I can't/won't do THIS" and will ask you to do exactly that thing anyway.

and once they see you cross the boundary once, they know they're in like Flynn forever.

That was a particular post relevant to a post you made like in the last ten minutes about literally the thing you do that you know is an issue my man, if you're here to admit it and own it and then just carry on for pages and pages doing it immediately anyway then why even pretend.

And i dont have the covid threads bookmarked but id point out that if that behaviour was an issue then this is another thread id need to drop if that were the case.

That’s one of the major pros of having boundaries - helps you see who’s worth having in your life and who’s worth getting rid of. Someone who continuously pushes on a clearly stated boundary is someone who doesn’t respect you, doesn’t view you as real person but rather as a tool or a side character in their life.

Everyone in my immediate family knows my older brother is a dick - I was singled out by him to a certain degree bc of our relationship but he was a fuckhead in general. I told my mum I was done with him and I guess it’s no surprise she didn’t realize what a grudge holder I am bc she’s never really known anything about me. I think she thought it would blow over. After a couple years she started gaslighting me (it’s just the way he is, it’s not that big a deal, no one else is acting the way you are etc). Which honestly just automatically reinforced my boundary. Then about 6-7yrs ago while I was back for a visit she organized an extended family get together for me and revealed literally at the last minute that she’d invited my brother and I was instructed to “be nice”. Of course I refused to acknowledge him when he arrived so Mum started kicking me and muttering at me so I said Hi and that was it looool. There was prob 15 ppl around and the vibe was awkward as fuck. Anyway afterwards my mum understood that if she tried to ever pull that shit again she’d be next in line for the chop, so she promised she wouldn’t.

Boundaries are about power, too. Like, tbh I get a lil rush when I cut someone off. If you’ve been powerless most of your life and it’s a giddy feeling to take control over of a relationship that’s trying to disempower you in some way and end it on your terms.

If you’ve been powerless most of your life and it’s a giddy feeling to take control over of a relationship that’s trying to disempower you in some way and end it on your terms.

totally!

your mum and your brother sound like real fuckheads justine! i really appreciate your posts itt about family relationships and boundaries, they are very clear about this concept and help me think clearly about what i'm doing and why.

also boxedjoy with a massively otm post. practicing scripts out loud is so key and something i don't do as much as i need to because it really is hard work.

It sounds really basic, but saying to my pals eg "I'm not into horror movies so I'm going to sit this one out" hasn't meant I've become excommunicated from the group, it just means they do something I'm not part of, but it took me so long to get to a point where I felt comfortable with that happening.

this is super otm. I was a misfit and weirdo for so long, and had really shitty self-esteem in terms of thinking that no one would want to be my friend, that I just went along with whatever, and would be friends with anyone who was nice to me lol.

estranged and no-contact family is, like, really hard ime, the grief and anger is always lurking around a corner. and those relationships are so crucial to our makeup that it can feel like some kind of major surgery (even tho the surgery is tumor removal!). it's probably not the best resource out there but others dealing with it, especially queer people, might be interested in the podcast that d4nny l4very does as an advice columnist, titled "big mood little mood". certainly not always on the topic of family estrangement, but they are very honest and eloquent about it when it comes up. it has really helped me deal with my own situation to seek out the company / experiences / general being of others who are going through similar things.

going back to the doomscrolling / doomposting thing ... it basically reinforces a sense of powerlessness, which can be super triggering to some people and merely annoying to others, and triggered vs annoyed can vary on a daily basis ... though maybe other doomscrollers appreciate it? idk.

I find it annoying, but I think a lot of it is due to my work. A significant amount of my work involves helping people navigate stressful bureaucratic situations, where a lot of what I do is give people a list of things to do, and what they can do is often limited by "wait and see" in terms of "official response". I end up having little patience for "can this horrible thing happen? what about this other horrible thing?" when there really is nothing in addition to the things on the list I have given them to do that the people or me can actually do to mitigate those horrible things. So, I tend to focus on "what can I do now to make things better or move things forward?" And if the answer is "nothing" then I just mentally move on or at least try to.

twice more have I enforced boundaries calmly this week. i've learned if I just let myself feel anxious without letting the anxiety guide what I say/do, it passes quickly and then I can calmly state my case. and learning to not take it to heart if the person pushes back after.

like just1n3 says, it is exhilirating a bit. It's been a while since I've mentally been in this place and looking to stay here.

Problem is, I can't do this without consciously suppressing the anxiety, which makes it linger on even longer.

And I have severe hesitant speech problems, which makes things even worse.

getting slightly better. had a friend (who is actually good w/ boundaries) ask me if I can help them clean their house tonight. I guess their unit is being inspected tomorrow, as a surprise, and her three kids routinely tear the place apart, so it's a mess.

I've gone over there a bunch to help in the past, but I am completely wiped today. taught two stressful four-hour classes with only a ten minute break in between, didn't barely get to eat, still working and have no idea when I'll finish. and haven't barely helped mom with dad all day. so I said politely that I couldn't.

I still feel bad, but...I had to remind myself that I'm not the only friend she has and that other people can step up. and she did ask other people.

the idea of asking a friend over to help me clean my house is... ??!
maybe to help decorate or move. But clean up?
might ask a few to see their response...

I guess their unit is being inspected tomorrow, as a surprise,

i have spent many hours in the past year helping clean for inspections tbh ... though it's part of my job

as I expected, they were able to get help elsewhere and we've had a pleasant, good friendly conversation with no hard feelings.

think I just grew up with too many shitty friends that I was expecting otherwise. my best friend growing up was really a bully that constantly made me feel shitty about myself (until high school, then I got better friends)

had to say "no" today and did it just like a rip of the band-aid. a friend of mine (Stage IV cancer, I've talked about him here) wanted to take a trip here to visit his mother, but couldn't afford a plane ticket and didn't want to drive by himself and his girlfriend isn't available.

I held out to see if it was possible, if we would have home health care at the house by now, but we don't, and my brother isn't available, and after dad's fall this weekend, there's no way I could leave him in mom's care for an entire day and a half, nor can I afford to pay out of pocket for a nurse. not to mention, the money it would have cost me to come get him and bring him down.

I had every valid reason to say "no", and he's apparently going to try the trip solo, but he managed to throw in a few sentences that seemed to be attempting to make me feel guilty for it, talking about how his girlfriend worries, and he only has a short list of people he could ask for this type of favor. but I didn't react to it, for once.

He knows I did him a favor like this once, but those were different times - my mother was able to take care of dad solo back then, as he wasn't as much of a fall risk, and she wasn't recovering from thoracic surgery. and that trip about killed me - because of my inexperience driving 27 foot truck, I damaged a local business's wall while pulling out and wound up shelling out $500 to reimburse the guy.

I would have totally done it, too, had things been different, but i can't imagine how stressed out I'd have been away from home had I done it.

so ...yeah, doing the uncomfortable things!

cool, i'm glad I finally have the ability to enforce these, but that doesn't mean it doesn't leave me feeling hit by a truck afterwards.

bump for the holidays! lol. no communication with my immediate fam and it's been good. how long has it been now? over a year? i genuinely can't remember and don't really want to!

anyway, i saw a fb post that made a good point about boundaries. they are declarations of what you will or won't do if someone does x, or continues to do x. i.e. if you email me on a weekend, i won't respond until monday. that way you have control over that action and you stick to it. that's the boundary.

going through this right now with a client -> former client --> client ... they're totally testing me and pushing and doing the thing where they are trying to make me feel guilty or bad for putting boundaries in place where I initially had fewer/none

I don't particularly think I was ever great with enforcing boundaries, but I was way better at it a decade ago.

Now, I get into stressed-out mode and tell everyone I need a quiet night to myself, instead I'm dealing with a hysterically crying friend talking to me about her breakup simply because I'm too fragile to take someone telling me that I'm cold.

I'm just apparently never allowed to deal with my own shit.

hope that don't take your whole night

geez, neanderthal, your post exemplifies why i'm leery of getting very deeply involved with most other humans. sorry you have to deal with this, but the alternatives often aren't much happier. where ample love is lacking things get thorny very quickly.

It turned out ok.

I'm just in "too much going on" mode with the holidays

Oh - this was the thread where my "stupidest post yet itt" unsurprisingly went straight over gyac's head.

one of my favorite songs of the year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPd1cB2yy4o

xp almost a year ago and you’re still smarting over that? Couldn’t be me. The idea that there was more to that “joke” than meets the eye…nah.

Skirmishes continue to break out along the border.

so at the gay bar where i dj there is a resident queen, let's call her mia. she works at the bar on weekends but also comes in on my dj night (thursday) to hang out with her friends after she does a drag queen bingo gig. i was unguardedly friendly to mia at first, and then over a period of a few months realized that she is manipulative and controlling under a guise of being "nice" and "cute". last week things came to a bit of a head. she came up into the booth and made a demand to change what i was playing, then when i demurred she watched over my shoulder for two minutes and said "that was good" when i mixed into the next track (n.b. her "compliments" are disingenuous and part of her game.) i turned to her and said "i don't give a shit what you think" and then "i need some space up here, would you please leave?" later on she tried to engage me by dancing to some songs. she stayed to the end with a few of her hangers-on and was pretty much right at the exit when i finally left the bar at the end of my gig. i didn't say another word to her. one of her little friends laughed at the tension.

so this week, i knew she was going to make an appearance and announce herself to me in the booth as always. my plan was to say "hey, do you have a song request?" and after dealing with either answer move quickly to "ok then, need to get back to work." treat her as just another customer at the bar. that is exactly how it went down. i couldn't help but add a little spice to it by playing a song after that called "let a bitch know." nothing as ice cold and satisfying as setting an effective boundary! removes the personal heat of someone who likes to play head games by treating them like a stranger that you exchange civilities with. anyway she and her friends left a few songs later and the night was a good one, i could focus on other energy.

hahahaha awesome ... "let a bitch know" hahahaha good job!

trying this new thing where when I'm tempted to give someone an explanation they don't deserve, I put down the phone and come here.

typical bullshit where someone invited me to something late, I had other plans, and he got mad at disrespecting 'tradition', since we've spent many years watching it together (nevermind that it wasn't every year, AND each time he had formally invited me weeks in advance, I didn't just show up at his doorstep due to some 'tradition').

I got about five words into a message defending my choice and remembered I don't owe it to him and deleted it. I do think I probably have diagnosed OCD due to some of the obsessive spirals my brain has gone in where an unresolved issue can actually take away an entire day from me, unable to move past it (esp w/ COVID). but I'm teaching myself to be comfortable with discomfort.

Expanding your window of tolerance. Good on you! Also good job not explaining.

thank you!

have never exactly been GOOD at the boundary thing, but I used to be better at it and I don't know what happened other than my mental health cratered due to specific events in 2013-2014 and even after those things faded, never recovered. I outright stopped talking to my oldest friend for *four years* because of toxic behavior on his behalf. didn't buckle once, and he finally years later atoned for it, went above and beyond actually atoning for it and I let him back in, and he's been great since. I can't even imagine having the courage to just bounce on someone like that now. the pressure, the using other people to try and talk to me to 'give them another chance' would work on me in two minutes now.

but...baby steps.

I'm getting better at saying, "I am sorry, but actually I can't do this for you." or ... "I don't feel comfortable doing this." ... I used to be the person that said "No" all the time, and then I realized that I was denying myself opportunities out of fear, so I said "Yes" a lot ... and that turned into saying "Yes" to too many things, and now I am "curating my yeses" better and working towards being more honest with myself about what I want and can do for other people, as well as cultivating "the enthusiastic maybe"

that's a vibe I totally get - I was similar (at least in the saying 'no' part), but very easy to overcorrect.

I used to have a problem of overcommitting by rushing to say "yes", so my new strategy is to never say "yes" to an invite (unless it's a same-day invite) when initially asked, to always say "let me take a look and get back to you", because that gives me time to check my calendar and make sure I didn't forget something, but also to do an assessment of how busy said thing will make me and removes the impulsive part of the response from the equation.

yeah! my go-to re invites is, "Cool! I want to go! But I've gotta see if I can actually make it."

update from yesterday, he and I had a good heart to heart where we both listened to each other. i still didn't cave, I did acknowledge a few thngs that in hindsight I could have handled better, but I also stayed firm and brought up things he did that didn't sit right with me and he owned them and apologized.

which probably wouldn't have been possible if I'd just caved and took the blame all to myself yesterday so...progress :)

meanwhile I might end up doing something I have avoided doing because I don't think it's something I'm good at, which is teaching/training on work that I do. There is this whole convoluted set of circumstances that have made it so that if I were to do this, it could solve problems for several different people/groups. Also, it might be a good way to frame some of the collective process issues so that there are clearer boundaries, like, in this scenario, I would be the teacher, and they would be the students ... as opposed to a peer based relationship where sometimes people will complain that I "take up too much space" by talking too much, in a context where I am the person who knows things that they want to know?

I know Neando and LL, y'all teach and train people ... am I being stupid by thinking about this?

Not at all - I’m most comfortable where there are clear and formal role distinctions, whether I’m the teacher or the server.

No, it's a great idea! frankly I still do love teaching people, even if the company I do it for frustrates me, and it does give you a different dynamic to work with that might help a more fluid communication and help wipe away some of the confusions or frustrations that exist with these people and groups.

as far as not being good at it, I think it just takes a lot of time to get there. I was a reallllllly bad trainer like, people that I trained back between 2006 - 2009 would laugh if I told them at the time that I'd pursue doing this full-time. it just took a lot of trial and error and feedback, and pre-practice before sessions.

but it sounds like an innovative way to problem solve on your team and I think it could definitely work!

thank you! I am trying to alleviate anxiety on my part by thinking of it like I'm playing a show. If students don't show up, or if things don't jibe, then at least I've shown up and done my set, and I can work on doing better next time ... and it isn't like this is for any sort of certification for anyone and the stakes are fairly low?

exactly. it being a performance helps a lot with the anxiety. I tapped into my theatre skills a lot and it helped me not take things personal.

i looked mighty dumb but there was one time I taught a class I had never taught before, and for 8 hours the day before I walked around the room saying the material so that instead of it sounding memorized, I was talking off of the top of my head and making it conversational, and it helped a lot the next day.

like, going back to LL's Girls Rock Camp presentation where she quoted me, I will play a bag of potato chips as an instrument.

Neando -- I definitely am realizing that a key to doing this well is preparation. One of my potential students is a clothing designer/seamstress as a creative hobby ... and I have been thinking about how accounting in Quickbooks Online is similar to making a garment.

Exactly!! You also have to accept that there will be nerves whether it’s a performance or a teaching role. Being prepared and having a plan helps a lot w that. I always try to remember that no one wants an anxious teacher (or an anxious drummer!!)

Also the similarities between volunteer coordination and teaching ... like, you kinda need to have ideas for tasks and how to do them prepared in advance, so you can ask, "who wants to do this?" And then they will inevitably ask, "What exactly do I have to do?" ... And then "ta da!" you have materials on hand to explain the task and hand it off to them.

xpost honestly infusing humor and being corny is how I deal with my nerves. like...I tell bad jokes on purpose in class, and if I make a mistake, I don't belabor it or draw attention to it, but some light self-deprecating humor is fun and relatable ("hmm I can't speak today!").

LL very much otm.

let us know how this works out if you do go that route. i think it's an awesome idea.

I mean, I've done volunteer coordination before but it has always been very concrete things like "paint a wall" or "take money at the door" or "sell beverages at the prices listed on this piece of paper" ... this is slightly more complex work

thanks y'all for yr support

oh and my best volunteer coordination task -- "all of this stuff over here is garbage, load it into this guy's truck and he is going to take it to the dump"

Gyac -

I'm responding to you on that alleged 'joke grievance' that you insist on bringing up on other threads (crossing boundaries in fact):

For boundaries to work, you have to enforce them...

Many relationships seem to have more complicated arrangements than the Northern Ireland protocol, and with a greater variety of 'no hard border' and 'backstop' solutions, and protracted negotiations and threats to trigger unilateral dissolution.

What I am saying is not entirely a poor joke - what I am saying is that if you identify hard boundaries, and insist on actively them, I can see this getting very protracted, involved, bureaucratic - and unpleasant. I'm wondering it's actually worth it.

To be clear- I didn't hold a grudge on your post for a year or whatever. I simply found my post again when the thread was revived - and noted that you hadn't grasped what I said.

By the way, I wonder if the irony has occurred to you that you were 'hard policing' a boundaries thread with your comments.

may the conflict over this post not last as long as the referent

Has anyone got any good tips for dealing with persistent interruptions? I work in teaching, so of course interruption is woven into the fabric of the job. On a given day, outside of the usual madness of lessons, I might get visited by upwards of 10 kids who just want to check in, which is fine. But it's the stuff after school when I might have an hour/hour and a half to get prepared for the next day and it's just relentless - and complicated by the fact that it's not one person (to whom I could say, 'look, any chance?'), but multiple people, none of whom are really aware that I've just got rid of the last person. I guess I have an approachable demeanour, which is fine, but short of a sign on the door saying 'leave me alone' the only real tactic I have is to get grumpy. Today, I went and hid in another room and got so much done. HELP.

Can you do your wrap-up work from home or do you have to sit in the office til 4:30

I mean a sign is perfectly reasonable also imo. Come on in/knock/do not disturb/out. Seen those a million times in my life!

A set time for office hours on your door and otherwise not available? A sign up sheet?

There's a weird grey area in teaching (in UK schools, anyway) where you're free to go at 3.30 and no one will judge you but 'oh, you're the kind of person who goes at 3.30 are you?' is absolutely a thing. Eh. Plus, I've set myself a boundary, that I stay at work and get finished up so that I don't let it bleed into my home life, because will it ever if I let it.

And the sign is fine, but certain people - senior management, lolbantz colleagues - would totally ignore it: the former, fine, that's expected; the latter would make it a point to come in and talk to me about the sign and I'm back to being grumpy. ARGH.

Interruptions by colleagues rather than pupils, right?

I actually think about this gif all the time
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2018-11/28/13/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-02/anigif_sub-buzz-11354-1543428630-7.gif

Not just cos it’s amazing (though it is) but as a slightly unusual example of enforcing personal boundaries in a way most people are going to have trouble responding to. The interviewer asks Mariah about JLo, who Mariah hates; Mariah just breezes straight through with “I don’t know her.” What are you going to say to that? Can you prove it? Are you going to call out someone saying something so brazen? No, most people won’t want to get drawn into awkwardness. The conversation moves on.

Anyway in this situation you can probably take a leaf from Mariah’s book - less is more. It might take a while and it depends on what the interruptions are.

You can gesture at whatever you’re working on and smile sweetly (if you can do this, I personally can’t) and say “really sorry, can I come back to you, I’ve just got to finish…”. The trailing sentence is important! Don’t specify! There are two reasons: 1) it may not be any of their business and 2) you want to cut the conversation short and not give them an opening to ask about what you’re working on. It’s really important to be nice but firm about it.

It’s probably not useful for you but in my circumstances if I have time to volunteer to help people at other times then I’ll do so, purely so when I say no, they know that you are the kind of person who will help, crucially, if you have time.

Headphones are usually a good “don’t bother me” signal but you will ofc run into people who cheerfully ignore this. Might not be appropriate in your workplace either.

Oh yeah and importance of saying along the lines of “I’ll come back to you” factors into Mariah example. You may have zero intention of doing so, especially if it’s a trivial interruption, but it softens the excuse and it actually works with your reason: if you don’t come back to them on their timetable, you can simply point to the thing you’re working on (sorry, you know how it is!) & eventually they may get the message. Either way it’s good to get practice at saying no.

That all makes a lot of sense, gyac. And I'm here for a Mariah solution. I like the 'playing the long game' vibe of it. I do that 'turn back to my computer and just get on with it' thing but, it's either all teachers or I work with a particularly thick-skinned subset of teachers, my colleagues have a remarkable facility for just carrying on rabbiting at me.

I'm second in the department, so it is sometimes work-related, which is obviously fine; but mostly I think it's either a) someone avoiding making a decision and fixing it through me or b) plain boredom/distractedness.

If you’ve ever been on the tube at night & had someone fall asleep on you, I liken the kind of people who cheerfully ignore these signals to people slightly impaired from drink. They probably don’t mean any harm but they don’t know what they’re doing and you don’t want them in your way, right? So the gentlest nudge to move them on. That’s why it’s important you say “Sorry can I come back to you…” cos it makes it impossible for them to ignore the other signals you’re sending out.

and, if you let it slide enough times without pushback, eventually it can become a much more angry "leave me alone" that comes out of you out of nowhere as the frustration builds up and isn't processed.

i was pleasantly surprised the first few times I said "I actually am a bit tied up at the moment" gently how well it was received. sure, every now and then someone gets cranky about it but wasn't very often.

Amen gyac.

I've got a sense of being much better at putting boundaries in place as I get older. I've stopped commenting on a bunch of different WhatsApp groups, and have stopped going to a bunch of things I used to out of duty, and I honestly don't miss any of it but I do get a twinge of worry sometimes, and am conscious of becoming an 'only on my terms' guy and isolating myself. I don't know. Does that ring true with anyone else?

You make it sound eminently achievable, Neanderthal, which is totally what I need to hear!

I do that 'turn back to my computer and just get on with it' thing but

genuine pro tip, stop turning away from your computer when you dont eant to be disturbed

its something i was told a few years ago, working in an open office, and it's a genuine game changer

i am way too hungover to have boundaries convos with not one but two people today. jfc.

somewhat shockingly though I remained calm through it and weirdly perversely enjoyed it the second time.

what it tells me is that these people are used to having people in their life who are willing to shit on their own needs to appease these people

i have realized after 3 years of covid, that if i am not physically in the same place as someone, it's really easy to ignore them ... also, if i am in the same place as them (this doesn't work if you live with the other person), it is fairly easy to leave because there's this thing you have to do for someone else.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/14/what-are-relationship-boundaries-jonah-hill

It's amusing AF when the people who tried to puppeteer me when I was in a serious wave of depression recoil now that I've been putting a stop to it since I've been feeling better in the last week.

I don't get it. I'm by far not a perfect person but there is zero part of me that would ever want to see a friend loved one only through the lens of what they could do for me.

the neighbour who lives across the landing from us is a perfectly fine normal woman for the majority of times, but every few months, maybe a dozen times a year, she will have a bad weekend and decide to get absolutely wasted on wine. She'll chap our door when she's already drunk and ask me to go sit with her for a bit so we can have a chat. I've done it a few times, out of kindness. But I can't always drop my evening, and I don't want to sit drinking on a night when I'm working the next day, and crucially I just do not want to do it sometimes, which is a valid reason itself.

Tonight has been one of those nights. She chapped the door. I told a white lie and said we were expecting visitors and said it wouldn't suit but maybe we could get together through the week. She called, texted and knocked the door. I went out, and said nicely but firmly that tonight simply wouldn't work, and closed the door. A couple more texts and another knock at the door. I went back out and this time said sternly, tonight isn't happening, and closed the door right over before anything else could be said. Now I'm getting cheeky text messages about how I'm "just like the rest of them" and "not to be trusted" and accusing me of lying about having a job (?!?).

I just want to relax on a Sunday evening with some music and a bar of chocolate, I don't want to have serious conversations with someone too drunk to make sense. I refuse to feel guilty about wanting to spend my time on my own terms. But trying to set and enforce this boundary is draining. I'm sat waiting and expecting another message or chap at the door, and dreading the awkward small-talk next time I see her in the gardens or the shop.

That sucks. The first time that happens it sorta feels like one is doing a good community service by listening to someone who needs to talk.

The 15th time, when one realizes that it's always the same talk and this will keep happening until someone puts a stop to it, is a drag.

It doesn’t apply to me but I think it’s great that my fine state has legislation about not requiring workers to be available by phone 24/7

since Dad has died, of course mom is receiving a fuck ton less social security, as she gets the greater of what dad got and what she was getting, not both.

I was very lenient for a while with helping financially after he died, as was my brother, but the same bullshit behavior has crept back in. mom got hired by a teaching assistance service, that she worked for pre-Dad's disability. She signed up for about 8 shifts since she's started - she bailed on 4 of them, which cost her probably $300-$400, while owing my brother and I money. She couldn't finish paying for my brother's rehearsal dinner, as I expected she wouldn't, so I did it to save it for my brother. I basically blew through $1,500 in a very short period of time thanks to his wedding and helping.

She quit paying her debt relief program on the advice of a lawyer. she's getting sued now thanks to that. she can't file for Chapter 7 because she just did 6 years ago. lotta good it did her and dad - they were racking up toxic debt within minutes of it being discharged last time. can't file again until 2026, and they told her Chapter 13 would kill her financially.

as usual, being her roommate, I'm the one who deals with it every month. Every month, she gets her social security. Every month, it's gone within days thanks to her bills and lack of other income, as well as the toxic debt she took on. every month she tries to find a way to afford expenses and pay bills for three weeks with no money and inevitably at around 11 pm one night every month comes the "can I ask you for a favor" msg.

my brother and I told her we can't do this or our futures will be ruined, and he's married now. I just escaped a near disaster but will be right back there if I'm not careful - I basically ripped through $1,500 thanks to my bro's wedding. This time around, mom's promising to work it out on her own, and insisting for me and my bro not to help, but I don't trust her. she would not do the GoFundMe I insisted she do a few months ago due to 'pride', but didn't have any issue asking my brother and I for money that same month. and the stress weighs on me a lot because I'm in a bit of a captive situation because anything that causes her not to be able to pay her rent means that I have to pay it or I get evicted too. so far that hasn't happened.

the boundaries aren't the hard part. it's the exhaustion of enforcing them, and the second-guessing after. right now I'm feeling shitty like I should be offering to help while the other side of my brain KNOWS it's the wrong thing to do, KNOWS I go to bed and fight heart palpitations most nights worried about how long the money I came into will last and whether I'll make it through the debt management program or wind up filing bankruptcy anyway.

like this isn't something that sprouted up yesterday, it's been going on for 25 years. I love my mother dearly but...this has caused an immeasurable amount of strain on my brother and I for over half of our lives, and we were too naive to stop it early on. he wound up on antidepressants and going to therapy himself, largely due to it.

I confronted my folks several times, practically calling in tears once to say I couldn't take it anymore, them saying I was 'heard', only to just go back to trying to cross my boundary and hope I didn't push back.

at least so far this month, I'm holding firm, as is my bro. but it's not like peace comes with that.

my mom keeps also saying that one of us should just take control of her finances, and I keep saying "why should I have to do that? I am stressed enough handling my own". not to mention there's nothing to 'take control' of. right now, significantly more money goes out than comes in. it doesn't take a math degree to know that unless you somehow reverse that algebra, you can't pay your bills. there is no amount of cutting back that will stop it.

so I'm mentally steeling myself up now for the moment sometime later this week when mom says "I know I said I was going to try to figure this out on my own, BUT...", and doing exercises and rehearsing what I'm going to say to hold firm and not budge. if I wind up in financial ruin by my late 40s, well....my self-destructive behavior of the last 3 years is going to look like a cakewalk compared to what comes after that. will be amazed if I don't have my first heart attack before I'm 50.

Dude (Neaderthal), reading your post with compassion... (I'll move my troubles over from the family estrangement post because this is probably a more appropriate thread)

Like I mentioned earlier about my sister, it just feels like a runaway train and you can't stop its trajectory.. all you can do is get out of the way

I'm able to push off my sister's requests because she's in her late fifties but it has to be much harder when it's your own mom... ugh

Update on my sitch: I'm getting unexpected phone calls from beloved cousins I rarely speak in person with (Minnesota, now Colorado): "So Andy, good to speak with you.. I wish I was calling under better circumstances" etc. And then they ask what the fuck is going on with my loser sister, my cousin in Colorado was like "well, I guess I'm supposed to pick her up at Amtrak tomorrow morning, she said she's been drinking beer on the train, is that normal?" And like I'm dreading that she's heading west to California to show up at my door broke and drunk. She has (apparently) no income whatsoever, and just bailed on her house when the eviction sheriffs showed up, presumably leaving her broken-down truck in the driveway in Missouri and probably releasing her cat into a forest, I have not a clue what her plan is. But she's involving all these other family members who haven't seen her in a decade or more, they've all been very compassionate and describe the other black sheep in the fam.. but it's still kind of embarrassing

But I've put my proverbial foot down: I could foresee helping with a security deposit for an apartment or something, but no more shut-off utilities, car trouble, behind on rent, etc. She's three years older than me but she acts like she's ready for a 100% unfunded retirement

since Dad has died, of course mom is receiving a fuck ton less social security, as she gets the greater of what dad got and what she was getting, not both.

Is this right? I feel like my mom collects my dad's SS checks (he died in 2003) and her own. I hope she's not running some kind of scam...

ex won't get the hint I don't want to be friends. like we had a tumultuous relationship. blah blah, and several times over the last several months, I have tried to underline that it's not working for us to be friends. you know the kind of friends minus the sticky, messiness of longing and desire. finally, a week-ish ago, I wrote a letter and clearly stated my position though I was tender; but essentially said, we can't be friends. He continues to disregard my letter- actually, he didn't even address or respond to the letter and continues to act nonchalantly and cavalier with me. striking up a glib conversation. anyway annoying is what it's become and kind of offensive

Pepper spray.

After trying to be gentle and sensitive for a bit, eventually I told an ex: "I DON'T LIKE YOU AS A PERSON DON'T CALL ME ANYMORE" and hung up on them. That did it.

don't know how people can carry on with this odd, borderline psychotic, entitlement to be in other people's space. I'm very much a stay-in-my-own-zone kind of person, if I even get the slightest hint that someone doesn't want to talk to me I will back off immediately and probably never engage with them again, or at least give it a few years! But showing up on people's doorsteps and imposing yourself on ppl who are not close or even comfortable with your presence is completely fucked up behaviour.

it must be terrible for their own self-esteem as well as the victim

I think some people just don't like to be the " bad guy" so to speak and want to have everything wrapped up in a little bow. he has this idea we can be friends. I can't see loving him as a friend, for the foreseeable future. I think it's foolish to try to push us in that direction. we should not absolve ourselves of the pain we caused each other.

I love this person and hold so many sentiments of love for them but I just want the messiness to end.

my friend named him "Mr. five star"

back to the drawing board

I had an ex like this, where we didn't have a bad relationship, but we were a bad fit and we broke up and like a day later she was saying she was upset that I didn't see more upset by the breakup and kept texting me "I still miss u" (even though she initiated the breakup, I just didn't protest much). and one day I said "Please leave me alone. I told you I don't want to get back together, and none of these 11 pm text messages are going to change that, and it's fucked to keep trying to guilt me into it". and she went dead silent...for two weeks, until she asked ot hang out and said she might kill herself soon.

i actually accepted that time but kept a big distance, said we were just friends, and offered support from a big distance. then never saw her again. she's married now and I'm legit happy she found someone that's right for her.

but sometimes you gotta be the bad cop in those situations, when the politeness doesn't take.

calzino also otm, like the easiest way to get me to go away is just give the slightest hint that I bother you. I disappeared for like two years from this place due to that.

(there, now you all know how to get rid of me, get to it)

The kind of behavior being described here is boldly manipulative. And not ok. Next step is them getting mad and casting themselves as a victim DARVO-style. We all have exhibited problematic behavior at some point in our lives, I’m sure, no one is perfect, but it does help to be able to identify/recognize manipulation if you’re aiming to maintain a boundary that you set.

it is, for sure.

lmao...so mom took i to initiative today and started resuming driving Uber Eats after a several year absence. awesome! and got herself a marathon gig to work! alright, we're cooking now.

then floats the idea 'OOOOH MAYBE I CAN DO SEVERAL DELIVERIES AT DINNER AND YOU CAN HELP ME WITH THEM'. (this being because she can't drive at night due to her glaucoma)

......

had to respond back to her for her to hear the absurdity - "so...to clarify...you want me to essentially get a second job, outright eliminating any free time I have to wind down after my actual job, one in which I won't get paid anything for? Or...just maybe...you could do this during the day, while I'm working?". it was immediately dropped after I phrased it that way.

i swear.

(she probably wants this as Dad used to help her years ago before his stroke, but Dad was the type of guy who would sacrifice all of himself for his family, and that's probably one reason he wound up wearing down so fast).

-i to

i just want to cry.

so after the above, she does one more Uber Eats shift, but then signs up for a pretty lucrative gig at her job working a marathon. her friend does a GoFundMe for her and it raises a ton. but her friend didn't put her banking info in, so the money took over a week to get there. Mom asked me to borrow money to pay for things until the GoFundMe money arrived over the period of a week, and the amount she got was significantly above the amount I loaned ($500). because I'm an idiot and thought even she wouldn't fuck this up, with a gig on top of it.

Saturday night, in typical fashion, she tells me she's giving up the gig on Sunday as her knees don't feel well. I had to go to a movie shoot 2 hours away an hour after she told me, but she promised she'd pick up another, and I reluctantly said "whatever", because she still had enough to pay me back, and I'd stay on her to get another gig.

yesterday, she gives me $150 and I say thanks and, as she asked me to do, I tell her that leaves $350, and she gets this look of....."I owe you $350?", and starts reciting the charges she remembers, which....was $200 short of what it actually was. I had it all noted in Venmo so I shared w/ her that, no, $350 is accurate. And she kinda gives a non-committal response.

I thought she'd only received some of her GoFundMe money, which is why the partial payment. I found out today she's gotten all but $100 of it. and she no longer has enough to repay me in her bank account. she didn't bother to make sure she'd actually be able to repay me when factoring in her bills, and did things she could have waited until after her social security arrived (oil + filter change), overspent at the grocery store (which I paid half of, but still). I'm going to be holding the bag again.

last night, my gambling addiction, which has come back, largely inspired by 'trying to make money quick', and I blew $300.

I just want to crawl in a hole. I know this is my fault and don't need to be reminded, but I am supposed to be going on an out of town trip tonight and taking a little mini vacay this week, and now I no longer want to do any of it. I hate my life. I hate constantly being surrounded by people , blood or otherwise, that respect me so little that they only care about how much they can use me. I hate that I'm going to have to ruin my week off by now confronting (and probably screaming at) mom for how fucked up it is that she borrowed money from me on the pretext that she was just waiting for her GoFundMe, then pocketed that money too. the me time I was looking so forward to is trashed.

fuck all of this shit. when Dad was alive, he kept a lot of her tendencies at bay, but now I'm bearing the full brunt of them. my life is ruined and I'm only 43.

and for the record, previous come to jesus moments worked for ten minutes, involved me breaking down into a ball and crying, only for her to keep on doing it anyway. next step = threatening to move out.

at the very least I can't have my living situation tied to this bullshit.

I’m so sorry 😞

This is just a thought and may not be helpful. You could ask the courts to appoint a conservator for your mom. It's not as drastic as a full guardianship, but it effectively takes control of her financial matters out of her hands. If you are willing to accept the appointment it's probable the court would do that.

I know it sounds drastic and it is, but it may have reached a point where drastic is the only path by which you can save your mom and yourself from her improvidence and irresponsibility. A lawyer could give you some guidance around the viability of this idea, but with your own financial bind I doubt you'd be eager to take this approach unless it felt utterly necessary. Anyway, good wishes and good luck.

Yeah, that sounds like a mess, Neanderthal - take care of yourself first and foremost. Maybe you can still do a scaled-down mini vacation, but do whatever you need to preserve your sanity

yeah, and honestly man, for your own sake, i just need to say something i have been wanting to say but have held back on:

you do not “owe” your mom anything, especially as it is totally apparent that she is willfully and even maliciously taking advantage of you. move out. you don’t deserve this and she doesn’t deserve you.

I know you’ve mentioned before that she’s asked you to take control of her finances but you felt like she should be responsible - and I agree, but my other advice is to cut her off and I know you can’t do that. Taking over her finances will at least give you control. At this point, it really seems like your only viable option. This stress is killing you and it can’t continue indefinitely. You’ve got put a boundary in place that actually works, and what you have currently is not working at all. A real boundary is something that you have complete control of - telling your mum she can’t keep doing this… or what? You’ll let her become homeless or starve or whatever other consequences she’ll have to face as a result of her own lack of accountability or care for your wellbeing? Realistically, you would never be able to let that happen. If you are in control of her finances than she can’t spend money she doesn’t have.

I’m also concerned about the gambling addiction. Her financial demands on you may have triggered a relapse but they aren’t what’s actually responsible for the addiction itself. I would suggest you ask yourself if her putting you in a position where you tell yourself that gambling feels like a desperate attempt to regain footing is actually true or a way to justify the gambling. As long as your mum is burning through your money you have a reason to act out in really risky ways that feed your addiction. I’m not being harsh to be an asshole - I just want you to see your situation as clearly as possible so you can make decisions that work for YOU.

I know this is an incredibly hard situation - your parents have put this burden on you your whole life, I can’t imagine what that’s like or what effect it’s had. Financial stress literally kills people and I don’t want to see that happen to you. You’re a good guy and you have a good heart.

<3

Finally sent an email I was dreading, stepping down from a publishing project that I was asked to eventually "take over" from a collaborator. I am working two (and once late August hits, three) jobs on top of full-time library school, and simply do not have the time for another project in which I am not totally invested and totally on-board aesthetically speaking.

Felt a weight lift once I sent it. Of course a probably difficult conversation lies in the future, but I can deal with that.

I love "no", it's my favourite word tbh. Great work tabes

But what do you do if you have boundaries that are actively damaging you? I don't like talking one on one to people, but I feel better if I do. I'm about as likely to do so on my own as I am to walk through a tree, but if I allow someone to force their way through my boundary it will help me but encourage them to hurt others.

I guess it depends what someone forcing their way through a boundary looks like. If your boundary is actively damaging, but you’re worried about encouraging bad behaviour, not acting doesn’t change anything and it sounds like you’re unhappy about yours.

Which I guess is to say, sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is really difficult and can really put you out of order but if it’s for something you deem worthwhile then sometimes you have to push through it.

Christine, is this a professional situation or a personal one or … a general thing? I forget whether this is the thread where emil.y and I discussed having a “moat of alligators” in terms of boundaries. But, it is a flipside to having too few boundaries or not enforcing them.

In my current job, I get tested a lot. Based on what you’ve said about your work, it sounds like you also have a lot of intense emotional demands placed on you. It’s hard when you really want to help someone and solve their problems but there’s only so much you (often as a result of the systems and hoops our society has put in place) can do.

Bump so I can gather my thoughts about this.

Idk if I've said this elsewhere but I went to an "author discusses their new book" thing and the author (Prentis Hemphill btw) said "Boundaries are the distance between us that lets me love you, and love myself, at the same time." (I might be paraphrasing, it was months ago.)

That felt like someone had opened a door in my brain and I can't stop thinking about it ever since. If I move a boundary too far, I do too much for you (give love, give whatever), and I hurt myself because I'm over-extended and my needs aren't attended to. Or the opposite, I protect myself (love myself) too much and hold you very far away which negates our connection? doesn't attend to your needs/wants.

Some people TAKE so much, I need a different boundary for that than for someone who is respectful and attentive. It's so obvious.

But what do you do if you have boundaries that are actively damaging you? I don't like talking one on one to people, but I feel better if I do. I'm about as likely to do so on my own as I am to walk through a tree, but if I allow someone to force their way through my boundary it will help me but encourage them to hurt others.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

I think "comfort levels" are different from how the concept of boundaries is meant in therapeutic circles? In therapy-speak a boundary is specifically a thing that you express to another person that has to include a thing that you're asking them to do, or not do, and a notification of what your response will be. "If you do that again, I will leave." "If you don't treat me the way I asked you to, we will not have a relationship."

It's been a month so I guess I'll share my perspective.

I've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. One of the challenges for me with that is avoiding all-or-nothing thinking. I'm trying to develop porous boundaries, a sort of semi-permeable membrane. It's challenging.

First off, being able to enforce good boundaries isn't _entirely_ a self-directed act. I have a boss, for instance, who does not respect her employees' personal or professional boundaries. Having healthy boundaries, for me, means getting out of that current work environment. That's a long-term goal I have to balance with the short-term goal of, well, surviving. I literally wound up in the ER on Friday in large part due to the stress I face at work. (I'm fine. It was just an unusually severe panic attack. After a couple hours my heartrate was back within the normal range and they discharged me.)

In other words, boundaries only help us if we have the power to enforce them. When I can't enforce my own boundaries, I take alternative, less effective actions to keep myself safe. This can include avoiding situations that would be helpful to me out of fear of being hurt. It can also include making unhealthy emotional demands on other people. Now, that's a really fucking difficult thing for me to diagnose. I think a lot about that REM line - "Oh no I said too much, I haven't said enough". I seem to often find myself on one side or the other of that equation, and for the exact same reasons.

I also have to tolerate that... I'm not going to be able to perform up to the standards I'd like. I'm not going to be able to take care of myself as well as I'd like, because I'm in this really toxic situation. I'm working to get out of that situation, but that's not immediate. I don't have complete control over that. I'm working to exercise the control I do have, but it's incredibly fucking hard. It's very hard for me to be kind to myself when someone who actively has power over me is _not_ being kind, compassionate, or respectful towards me. It's very hard to talk about that, knowing that I am choosing to continue to stay in that situation, knowing I have very good reasons for staying in that situation. That for now, it's the best decision.

Never mind. (I need to start learning my lesson about putting off replying to posts.)

well, i'm always glad to hear from you, even if you decide not to say a lot of the stuff you were thinking of saying :)

I'll go ahead and post it, then.

I have no problem with telling people no, in fact, I think I tell people no too often for my own good. Having people respect my boundaries doesn't make me feel any less nervous about dealing with people, and it gives folx a vulnerability that they can use against me. I also am really not the best judge for knowing what is the best for me.

That last thing must make you super anxious… I have felt that way in the past and it can be immobilizing. … I hope you can feel more comfortable and confident at some point

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

I have no problem with telling people no, in fact, I think I tell people no too often for my own good. Having people respect my boundaries doesn't make me feel any less nervous about dealing with people, and it gives folx a vulnerability that they can use against me. I also am really not the best judge for knowing what is the best for me.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

that's really super relatable. i have that problem a lot too. i'm really defensive and i say "no" a lot. i also have a hard time trusting my own judgement. i know in theory that i am the best judge of what's best for me, that nobody can know what's best for me better than i can, but i'm not always right. i make mistakes sometimes. and i worry about facing disproportionate consequences for those mistakes. idk if that's anything like what you experience, but that's what i'm going through right now.

What I'm saying is that I become slipshod and thoughtless when I'm confident with myself.

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

FUCK yes it's those fucking hard compromises, it's doing everything one can and it still winding up not being good enough. this past week, i got a lien on my car and it's going to auction because i was too stressed to figure out how to take care of it. i haven't been able to figure out how to get tested for colon cancer and i wound up so worried about bleeding that i wound up in the ER Friday evening because I was afraid I had serious health issues. (It was just a severe panic attack). my eggs keep going bad in the fridge because i don't have the energy to cook with them. i feel socially isolated because i didn't get around to making social plans with anyone this week. my boss keeps threatening to write me up because i'm not meeting my goals. it just seems like it never stops.

and i know intellectually it's not because i was confident in myself, it's because a lot of times we have unreasonable expectations placed on us, and we get blamed for not meeting those unreasonable expectations. because sometimes a person is expected to do everything by oneself without ever needing help, and if a person can't do that they get treated as a failure. i got told, you know, when i do all my work, _then_ i can relax and enjoy myself, but i never actually get everything done. there's always something else. usually too many other things to count.

i don't know your situation, but from what you say, it sounds like you are also being held to unreasonable expectations. it's hard to feel good, to feel happy, to feel comfortable and confident, when it seems like something's always on fire, and it always seems like there's something else one could have done, an easier way. and i don't. i don't feel comfortable or confident. i don't feel happy. i'm doing my best, though. i know there's nothing wrong with me. i get the impression you're doing your best too, and that there's nothing wrong with you, either. it really doesn't seem to me like you being confident is causing all of the bad things to happen.

One reason why I cannot stand people intermingling their checks at bars/restaurants w mine....

Got asked by a friend if I could spot them a few drinks today until they got paid. Said "sure". Then they went inside, ordered a $20 meal, put it on my tab, then told me "I thought you were covering me today" when I asked if they were gonna pay me.

I've been paying for all of my mom's expenses for weeks because she ran out of money earlier than planned...so it's not like I'm cheap, but taking advantage of me using my card for our tab and going beyond what I agreed to and intentionally violating a boundary just makes me feel so disrespected and I really just did not have the energy to have to call them out like I had to today.

Yeah that’s incredibly selfish of them. You are in the right.

We just got in a fun little fight over it. Yay merry Christmas

I'm probably going to have a fatal heart attack before I turn 50 at this point

Neando you recognize that financial abuse is real right?

That’s not me being flippant — I genuinely see the way your mother (and occasional friend) treats you and it’s abusive.

need to drop or greatly minimize going out to social events if those kind of friends/acquaintances are taking advantage of you. obviously harder with family members. like - there's certain social behavior i'll brush aside when you're still relatively young. but if you're pushing 35 plus and taking advantage of people in those kind of situations i'm sorry but i don't have time for that anymore.

Not flippant at all, LL, you're correct.

As we get close to when this lease expires and I'm not inextricably linked with mom anymore, I'm going to suggest she find a friend who is willing to take her in rent free...or close. And I will move on to my own place.

Regarding social activities, I had become a bit of a hermit outside of concerts, but this last two weeks wound up with an unusual amount of social commitments and it's on me that I didn't say no to more of them.

I just don't stick up for myself well because I don't respect myself.

I'm ok now tonight after I had my mini meltdown but I gotta get back to therapy in Jan

you're a confident poster Neanderthal! (much more confident than I am), and I think you do respect yourself. I like your very big sense of empathy

Wish you the best in the new year and beyond. Everyone deserves better than what you’re describing.

Neando, you might benefit to have some go-to phrases handy to decline if someone asks you to spot them some cash or something - “money’s been tight this week” “waiting for a paycheck to clear,” etc. A way to avoid the unpleasantness of what you describe. Or even to do a non-monetary favor. “Would love to give you a ride, but Ive been having a rough week/feeling stressed lately and I’m trying to lay low at the moment.” Having a sense of you as a highly scrupulous person who holds yourself to high standards, I can relate to the idea that you want to be as giving as you can be, and honest, and that you might be hard on yourself to hold back or deploy white lies. But there is nothing to feel guilty about for protecting your own hard-earned time, money, or energy to allocate to your own needs

It sounds like the thing with your friend (unless they have a habit of this behavior) made you flip out mostly because of what’s going on with your mom. Like, my instinct was you were hoping this hangout with your friend would make you feel better and less hermitty and distract you from the frustrations you are experiencing with your mom and your job. … But then your friend does something that triggers the shit you were trying to escape by hanging out with them.

Idk a significant part of friendship is trust and goodwill… which is a two-sided thing. Like I don’t see your friend’s behavior as inherently shitty (based on what you’ve said)… but the context of what you have been dealing with made it shitty.

My advice is not to isolate from your friends because of this one thing.

This is really good advice. I got a friend who's dealing with the fallout from her parents' financial abuse and it's not pretty. Most people in this world aren't going to treat you like your mom does. (That one's from Kate's list of "advice I regularly give other people that I should really consider taking myself".)

yeah we're still ok the friend and I, she actually said "I feel like you're reacting to something more than just me here", which was true. we wound up having a much better evening after that lil emotional bloodletting