Outside Cats - is it a sin?

Yes and no.

touchy subject with a US/UK dividing line, thread should be insta closed to protect board sanity lest we start 2022 with another tipping

UK no, US yes? I'm Aussie and I think culture here is 50/50.

Take a stand Aimless you coward

i kind of thought it was a sin to be indoors only. rural bg here though.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/caught-by-cats-birds

fwiw re US/UK this might be an ecosystem issue, the RSPB (bird protection soc in the UK) don't consider cats to be a threat to bird populations in the UK - this may not be the case elsewhere

Damn, I’m living in 2021 … and posting in 2022! (I know, not really.)

Wow, nevermind. I suppose the drinks are settling in. Happy new year folks

when i was a kid, literally every cat we ever owned that were let out died outside. run over by car, lost a fight with a dog, eaten by coyotes, you name it.

There are some exceptions, but strictly speaking almost all cats should be indoor cats. However I have known both 'barn cats' in rural places, whose main function was to keep rodents in check, and cats who have spent young and formative months as feral cats, who adopted their "owners" on a provisional basis, but who simply could not tolerate confinement.

yeah HP indoors only is more common in the US than the UK. and people on both sides of the debate are often insane about it (i am pro-indoors only and quite insane about it)(with the exception of barn cats)

xxp

that's why I couldn't have an indoor/outdoor cat again. The first cats my mom got that were indoor-only made it to 23, 20 and 19, not sure any before made it past 10 without disease or disappearance.

But I also despise litter boxes so no cats for me.

That is the opposite of my expectation. I thought more land+higher libertarian values in the US would swing them towards the outside boys.

I'll take my stand, I let my guys outside. two of them never leave my garden, the other one has become cosy with the neighbours who really like him as well. They're all neutered, and over the year they have killed a baby possum, 2 or 3 butcherbirds, and maybe 7 rats?

I would keep them in if: the neighbours weren't happy (I know them all pretty well), or if they were killing things that weren't pests/numerous.

they are definitely a threat to birds anywhere, but I still think it is obscenely cruel to keep them indoors f/t when they seemed to have evolved into the perfect domesticated/wild balance lifestyle that dogs could only dream of after hanging out with humans for thousands of years. Of it's a more difficult decision for people that live in big cities and tower blocks.

"But I also despise litter boxes so no cats for me."

the stench of those things. I worked in a job where I'd go into 10-20 houses a week for years and have so many horror stories about cat shit.

calzino otm. I feel like the domesticated cat was designed to live with humans while still having access to the great outdoors. and whenever I have tried to keep them in I can just see every biological instinct within them rebelling. I get sad going to my wife's parents place and seeing their cats waiting at the door to try escape when we open it to enter, and they have been inside cats for years.

litter boxes kill me

I haven't done cats in a big city though so its all worked out for me so far.

average life span of outdoor cats is 8-10 years lower than indoor cats and nearly every domestic cat gets used to indoor life if you work at it a bit. dogs and hamsters would love to free roam as well but they adapt. domesticated cats have evolved to be domestic, and you can give them 100% of the enrichment they need by playing with them for 20 minutes a day and giving them vertical spaces to climb. many don't even need that. only cat i've ever had that didn't get fully used to indoor life was a feral stray we took in that we probably shouldn't have.

I've had 7 cats in my life and the feral one was literally the only one that ever indicated it wanted to go outside. Wanting to go outside is not an inherent trait in domestic cats lol...just play with your cats

i kind of thought it was a sin to be indoors only. rural bg here though.

― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Friday, December 31, 2021 5:14 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago)

same here

I only ever had inside/outside cats growing up, but we lived in a rural place. We never lost any of them. Since living in cities like Chicago and Minneapolis I wouldn't let a cat go outside on its own.

xxp
okay tbf my wife's parents cat was outside early in life and they have transitioned it to inside after like 4 years? So I'll take your words on how they're raised

world's best cat litter made from corn = no litter box smell, ever

i could never let my cat outside. she's happy inside and i don't want her to die.

I live right on a major highway. If we let our cat out he'd be roadkill.

one of my parents' cats adopted them when he showed up as a year-old-ish guy and he was indoor/outdoor for a couple years but then he disappeared for a few days and my mom was so distraught. he limped home with a bad animal bite and has been inside for the past 10 years, completely content after an initial adjustment period.

world's best cat litter made from corn = no litter box smell, ever

I use and endorse this

for the people with indoor only cats, do you have backyards or balconies, and do you let the cats go there?

I’m sorry but if you’re a bird (ie, a fly-er) and killed by a cat (ground-bound) u probably weren’t meant 4 this world

Grew up in the UK and had cats who spent half their lives roaming outside (we lived in urban areas) and it never would have occurred to me that cats might live otherwise. Moved to the US and discovered that people have indoor cats which seemed weird at first but--run over by car, lost a fight with a dog, eaten by coyotes--yeah it makes sense.

let cats do what they want in 2022

this is like arguing about parenting of human offspring ... I am so not gonna post anything prescriptive in this thread, apart from, if you are going to have a cat, you should love it, and also post pics

thank you!

My semi-wooded suburban neighborhood had a variety of outdoor cats roaming around when we first moved here. Coyotes arrived a few years later. Soon we had a half-eaten cat carcass in our front yard and within a year or so there were no more outdoor cats left.

woman across the road from me has loads of indoor/outdoor cats, she must have at least 8. It amuses me when there are some on the inside on the window ledge and others on the outside of the window all sat there in a row like some big organised crime gang separated by a window, not sure which ones are the happiest at this point but it is a funny sight!

i love my cat way too much to ever let her out no matter how much Outside is All She Wants, she is small and sweet-natured and i have many mean neighborhood cats and coyotes for neighbors. i also posted many pics of her on instagram this evening

Are coyotes actually real? I thought they were just a looney tunes character? Massive lol at the “Australian wild life will kill you!” Stereotype as well. While there might be some danger for outside cats in suburban Australia, it definitely does not come from wildlife

I grew up with multiple indoor / outdoor cats. One disappeared. One got mauled but healed. They mostly managed okay.

let cats do what they want in 2022

― k3vin k., Friday, December 31, 2021 8:52 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they're going to anyway so we should just accept it

Are coyotes actually real? I thought they were just a looney tunes character? Massive lol at the “Australian wild life will kill you!” Stereotype as well. While there might be some danger for outside cats in suburban Australia, it definitely does not come from wildlife

― hrep (H.P), Friday, December 31, 2021 9:34 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

coyotes are real, they live in the woods behind my house. a couple years ago one snatched a little dog out of a yard in my neighborhood. the next day a very distraught woman asked me if she could cut through my yard to get to the woods because she was just hoping to find some remaining evidence of the dog she loved.

We definitely have coyotes here. The tend to leave gruesome roadkill now and then. My kids, back when they were little, would sometimes have recess cancelled because there was a coyote about. I have friends who hear them when they take their dogs out for a walk, because you can hear the long coyote claws click-clack on the street. I myself have come across coyotes lurking about several times, in broad daylight.

When we got our cat (he was born on a farm) it was a challenge to keep him inside. Like, every day, every single time we opened the door, he would try to get out, and to stop him several times a day started to feel cruel. So for most of his life, he's been in indoor/outdoor car. He goes out when he asks, but especially as he gets older, he otherwise stays in. I know statistically their lives are better indoor-only, and tbf he's had a few mysterious injuries, one of which (however it occurred) left him blind in one eye (the eye is intact, but he sustained damage somehow to his optic nerve), but his life as indoor-outdoor has worked out pretty well for him. As he's gotten older (he's about 14) his roaming circle has gotten smaller and smaller. These days he's rarely much further afield than our backyard, or under the deck.

there's tons of coyotes where i live (just outside of portland), in the summer i tend to go running at night to avoid the heat and if i don't run into a few coyotes it's a weird night

Coyote I saw down the street a couple of years ago:

https://i.imgur.com/uh30YTR.jpg

I expect coyotes will be a living species long after the last human dies. they are exceptionally smart, sneaky and tough. Humans managed to eradicate wolves in many places. They have had zero luck eradicating coyotes anywhere, no matter how hard they've tried.

Coyote in Michael Mann's "Collateral":

https://the-take.com/images/uploads/screenprism/_constrain-1080w/Collateral_Coyote_Crossing.jpg

let cats do what they want in 2022

― k3vin k., Friday, December 31, 2021 8:52 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they're going to anyway so we should just accept it

― call all destroyer, Saturday, 1 January 2022 12:43 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I lean deterministic which definitely correlates to my outside cat position.

sin is a strong word, but cats should be kept inside

the animal that wounded my mom's cat and caused him permanent nerve damage was likely a coyote

my take is simple--cats that are born and raised indoors should stay that way for their safety in most places. cats that have spent some time outside for whatever reason probably should be allowed to continue. their lives will be shorter but from what i've seen bringing an outdoor cat inside full time can be very tough.

our kitty is much to clumsy, goofy and neurotic to be let outside. he seems pretty happy indoors, but needs to play a lot.

Some cats really want to go out, some cats don't.

I've got foxes in the neighborhood, I don't know if they fuck up cats or mutually leave each other alone but I wouldn't want to test it.

I once knew someone who found a cat in a dumpster (so technically an outdoor cat) and took him in and tried to make him an indoor cat. But the cat rebelled and acted mental and destroyed clothes and many other things inside the apartment. So this person told me she hated the cat and couldn't take it anymore and handed the cat over to me. I let the cat be indoor/outdoor (this was in suburban Florida) and the cat seemed to change personality over night, and became a cat that everyone loved and appreciated. And the cat lived approximately 19 years. So I think there is something innate in cats that makes them want to be outside.

We have 6 adopted-as-adults semi-feral cats that are indoors only. 2021 has been a year of litter and litterbox experiments but we're pretty well sorted going into 2022 with 3 Breeze boxes, 3 stainless steel boxes (2 with hemp litter, 1 currently with silica crystals), and 2 puppy pad locations. None of them really want to go outside, though we do set up a catio in warmer weather.

our adopted seniors were indoor guys so we've kept it that way. one of them has gotten out a couple times due to someone inadvertently leaving something open, luckily he yowls loudly as soon as he's out so we know about it.

there's tons of coyotes where i live (just outside of portland)

one night last summer i spotted a coyote in ladd's addition (inner portland). thought it was a loose dog at first as i didn't think it possible that coyotes would even be here... this site told me otherwise.

Coyotes are pretty much everywhere. Raccoons, cute as they are, will also maim and kill cats. Where I am (suburban King County, south east of Seattle), we also have bobcats and the occasional mountain lion.

I grew up on a farm and so all our "pets" were semi tame farm cats, I guess I didn't think about it, I remember a few deadly cold nights mom would bring them in. one was Old Blue, absolutely huge cat with beautiful blue eyes, he'd disappear for a couple weeks then saunter up the driveway. we assumed he had similar arrangements with neighboring farms

If I was a cat I'd just simply avoid continents with coyotes and bobcats!

Yes and no.

Take a stand Aimless you coward

(Aimless carefully looks up at the ceiling and clasps his hands together around his knees)

I often try out a different geographical history on my cats: first fleet Aussie/English prison ship cats, viking hunters, residents of the Egyptian royal court, Mongolian yurt dwelling cats, Moscow or Istanbul street cats. I have never imagined a cat to come from godforsaken coyote-infested America, and for good reason.

Calzino otm

i hate this thread. keep your indoor cats indoors. litter boxes don’t smell if you use good litter and fucking clean them

my cat was a rescue, found in queens in 2013, came to live with me and my wife in BK in 2014. We moved to CT in 2018, where in addition to being a great cuddle/purr friend to the two daughters that came to be while he was in our house, he could run around outside and be the predator he was frankly born to be but could not enact in NYC… he often proudly brought his prey inside…

and yet in early october, we let him out at some point, and I found his his lifeless body in our yard in the afternoon, felled by a bobcat or a coyote… surely by his own estimation, we gave him a great life, but he lived and then died by the sword…

One of my cats was a rescue and he is still really shy around people to say the least. Still really sweet though.

I live in suburban Maryland (outside Baltimore) and we’ve had reports of coyotes roaming about here in recent months, which is surreal.

I grew up with 4-5 cats. Resolutely indoor. My mom was no messing around.

sometimes on instagram I see Americans post photos of themselves taking their indoor cat out for a walk around the neighbourhood on a leash - is this a common thing? I find it impossible to imagine my cats letting anyone walk them around on a leash (but they've been allowed out by themselves all their lives, so it's different I guess)

Soref, it’s an occasional thing from what I’ve seen, but not at all common.

There was a guy in the bit of SE London I lived in til recently who I would see walking around the streets with this Bengal-looking cat just chilling on his shoulders taking in the sights

I once knew someone who found a cat in a dumpster (so technically an outdoor cat) and took him in and tried to make him an indoor cat. But the cat rebelled and acted mental and destroyed clothes and many other things inside the apartment. So this person told me she hated the cat and couldn't take it anymore and handed the cat over to me. I let the cat be indoor/outdoor (this was in suburban Florida) and the cat seemed to change personality over night, and became a cat that everyone loved and appreciated. And the cat lived approximately 19 years. So I think there is something innate in cats that makes them want to be outside.

― Josefa, Friday, December 31, 2021 10:15 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

we found my childhood cat in the bushes next to our house, and for the majority of her life she was outdoor/indoor, though she very rarely goes out these days because she is 20. she’s indestructible

I tried walking one of my childhood cats on a leash, it took him all of 2 minutes to get out of the collar. Not sure I'd even seen a dog harness at that point but it might have been feasible with a cat version.

When I was a kid all our cats were indoor/outdoor and loved it. One would wander off for days at a time, pick fights with neighborhood dogs, etc., another would just lay in the driveway for a while on summer days then come back inside. I haven't had a cat in 30 years though, and I currently live on the second floor, so any cat I might theoretically own would be strictly indoors — I'm not going down a flight of stairs to let a cat in/out.

We have a shit-ton of feral cats on our block; there's an old lady in the next building over who actually lays out plates by her parking space and feeds them, which I'm not sure I agree with.

I adopted a cat not long after moving to Atlanta in 2011 and, despite my best efforts to change him, he would NOT be contained in a tiny 1br apartment with me. I really, really, really hated to let him wander around outside all night, and in the end he got hit by a car like told him he would a thousand times. Strictly indoor cats for me since then (and it helps if you get them when they're kittens so they don't know any different).

our cats are indoor/outdoor. we live in a place where at least one of them is doing some population control to the degree that is probably good for the habitat. a cat we'd lost a few years back had maybe 6-8 years prior been living in an apartment. very overweight and lethargic. her move to our current place resulted in a healthier lifestyle for her remaining years. i would personally have a hard time living someplace after this that required my cat to live indoors full-time.

did you know outdoor cats kill so many birds that there are no birds in britain?

No way are these two ever going to be allowed outside the house.
https://ptpimg.me/g4j77l.jpg

But they're the perfect indoor breed (Persian), and their 10-year-old, formerly feral sister, Clementine, would kill them if she weren't allowed to live outdoors pretty much 24-7. So, Clementine is allowed out. Fortunately, we live far enough back from any streets that I'm not worried about cars, and there aren't coyotes or raccoons in Hawaiʻi. She's so much happier out there, and watched after by the neighbors, too, who all love her. I just wish she could've been adjusted to tolerate other cats in the house. We certainly tried our best, but it was impossible.

One of my indoor cats is eager to go outside. Earlier this year he got out and I didn't notice for about 5 minutes. I go behind my house and he's back there in a showdown with a stray cat, and he's already been scraped and gouged by a thorny desert plant. There are many other strays, many other thorny plants, plus coyotes and mountain lions. He'd been dead within a week if I let him roam around.
I do have a harness and leash for him, but I put it on incorrectly the first time so now he's traumatized by it.

Deeming it "obscenely cruel" to keep cats indoors is just ridiculous

*sips milk, cracks knuckles*

if yr cat is happy to live indoors, that’s best for everyone

if yr cat yearns to go out and you live in a safe area (no predators no loose dogs no busy roads no malicious neighbors no battlecats) with an over abundance of common minifauna that you don’t mind unleashing hell upon, that’s aight, just make sure kitty is vaxxed up

if u meet the previous criteria except there’s cat snackers around then bring yr babies in before dusk & keep them in while it’s dark

if where you live isn’t ideal for free roaming then a couple reasonable compromises would be

i) a catio if you have the space/money

ii) a harness, a leash, and a protected outdoor area (fenced yard or isolated park where you can see other folx and critters coming from a ways off)

it’s a real bad idea to hook a leash to a cat’s collar, which hopefully is a breakaway collar to begin with since they can hang themselves otherwise. at some point any cat on a leash is gonna freak out and try to scarper & it’s better if all that force is distributed across its chest rather than focused on its throat.

like with any strange new thing, when you introduce a kitty to a harness you gotta go slow and build up pawsitive associations, and some cats just straight up won’t have it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

this is my smudgy puff

https://i.imgur.com/z7Ws2OY.jpg

this thread had me thinking about your excellent tips on the kitten thread.

A handsome specimen. Is the name Pele?

I think this conversation, raging 24/7 across the Internet as it is, usually turns into cross-purposes arguing between Americans who have witnessed the aftermath of traumatic coyote-maulings and slightly baffled non-Americans who live happily with tiddles in a quiet residential cul-de-sac in Surbiton or whatever

All the cats I had growing up were outdoors to some degree and couldn't have been convinced otherwise. With current incumbent Richie I'm a bit more minded to go with one of the above compromises because I live on a railway line and also he's kind of expensive looking

yeah if i found a Richie i’d surreptitiously slip him in my bag & saunter away whistling, sorry but that’s the way it is

yes that is my Pele! my bunny, my snoogle, my mushkin, ruler of my house and all she surveys 🙏

gracias visiting! i kind of can’t shut up abt kitties, had to stop myself from posting a dozen irrelevant follow ups 2 that post about earwax and boxes and dangling poop, etc.

I've got foxes in the neighborhood, I don't know if they fuck up cats or mutually leave each other alone but I wouldn't want to test it.

We once saw a fox by our front yard. Our cat was out and just watched it from a short distance. This particular fox didn't care about the cat.

I remember a few deadly cold nights mom would bring them in.

We moved into our current house a week or so before the infamous polar vortex of 2014. At one point the cat went out and didn't return for maybe seven days. We figured he was a goner, what with the temps hovering around -15 or whatever it was. But after about a week or so he showed up at the backdoor again, none the worse for the wear. We figured that because it was so cold all the animals called a detente and just huddled together in a pile of cats, dogs, raccoons, mice, possums, etc., until the worst of the weather waned. And then the smartest of the bunch said everyone had a count of 100 to get to where they needed to be before the hostilities resumed.

Our cat is around 14 or 15, a little chunky, blind in one eye and missing a fang. He still goes out but not far. This is him most of the time:

https://i.imgur.com/4jIdB4F.jpg

most unexpected thread ever.
had no idea this was even a thing.
i have always had cats, and they have all been both indoors and outdoors cats.
my current cat is getting older, 14, and so she spends more time indoors now.
but still, she needs to head out a couple of times a day.
that said, we are off a main road, and have a garden.
she never ever ventures far these days.
when she was a young'un we used to see her on the hunt in the fields behind us, but those days are well over.

A thing here in my US community is people getting super mad about cats in their yards, trapping them and taking them to impounds in other counties where their owners won't think to look for them. Also roaming cats being trapped and used as bait in dog fights. Unfortunately found out about this when one of our semi-feral rescues got out of the catio last summer and never returned. After months of searching for him and postering every utility pole within a mile, we can only hope he found a better home and didn't meet a terrible fate. But it's hard never knowing.

bloody hell.

oh, and what's a 'catio'?

xp fuck me, if they do that to cats I don’t like to think about what else they do

Catio is an enclosed outdoor space for cats - usually has an entrance directly from the house. Ours is on one end of our covered deck.

as soon as i posted i realised : catio = patio for cats.

never heard the phrase before, nor the chaos re owning a cat.

Yeah I think knowing the potential for cat abuse is a big driver for me to have indoor only cats. I rescued a kitten years ago from a ditch behind a grocery store where kids were shooting arrows into a litter. She was the only survivor.

Now *that* is obscenely cruel

oh, and to answer the thread : of course it's not a sin if a cat is an outdoor cat.
have you seen cats vs pigeons/crows/blackbirds
i.e. the predominant birds in most UK environments.
those fuckers totally scare the fuck out of cats.
personally i would love it if cats had the upperhand over pigeons as this plague island could do with a massive cull of the bastards.

A pigeon shat on me from the top of a floodlight post in the park a couple of months back. It went over my hair and down the front of my coat, the only luck I had is it missed my glasses and eyes. The bastard was looking very pleased with its work as well. It was all my indoor dog's fault for pulling me towards the post.

I think it was Elizabeth Kolbert who wrote about the link between humans bringing cats into regions and mass bird species extinctions. Maybe the birds have wised up about these furry killers a bit since the late prehistoric period!

I always thought that the problem was driven overwhelmingly by *feral* cats, not house cats.

90% of the time my boys are doing this
https://imgur.com/a/v03UgQE

Re: birds and cats. My experience has been if the bird finds my cat, they chase it and swoop it til kingdom come. And I feel bad for my cats and curse all flying creatures for their cruelty towards some of my closest friends. But then I will catch a moment where one of my cats finds a solitary bird that HASN’T noticed it. And it gets low to the ground and starts slowly slinking towards it ready to pounce. Typically they fail and the bird calls all its mates and they terrorise my cats again. The vicious circle. The birds in my area are pests that attack small children (seriously) so I don’t feel much sympathy for them when my cat is on the hunt. Between the three of them and their two years of life, they have caught two birds. I’m not crying myself to sleep about it

https://imgur.com/a/v03UgQE

xp not overwhelmingly no - nearly 1/3 is attributed to domestic indoor/outdoor cats, not including barn cats:

We estimate that cats in the contiguous United States annually kill between 1.3 and 4.0 billion birds (median 2.4 billion) (Fig. 1a), with 69% of this mortality caused by un-owned cats.

We defined owned cats to include owned cats in both rural and urban areas that spend at least some time indoors and are also granted outdoor access. We defined un-owned cats to include all un-owned cats that spend all of their time outdoors. The un-owned cat group includes semi-feral cats that are sometimes considered pets (for example, farm/barn cats and strays that are fed by humans but not granted access to habitations), cats in subsidized (including TNR) colonies, and cats that are completely feral (that is, completely independent and rarely interacting with humans). We did not classify cats by landscape type or whether they receive food from humans because the amount of time cats spend outdoors is a major determinant of predation rates and because predation is independent of whether cats are fed by humans

I've been on both sides of this and basically agree with H.P.: I feel like the domesticated cat was designed to live with humans while still having access to the great outdoors.

I grew up in a ruralish area with an indoor/outdoor cat, and then lived for many years as an adult with indoor-only cats. Now we have an indoor-outdoor cat — my wife already had him when we met, and he was already set in his ways. I didn't object, and honestly living again with an indoor-outdoor cat after living with indoor-only cats, you will have a hard time persuading me that indoor-only cats are just as happy. I'm not saying they can't be happy, but I really do not think they are as happy as cats allowed to go outside. My anecdotal experience of my own and my friends' indoor-only cats is that they are more neurotic and more prone to various kinds of weird behaviors because they have to find some way to get out all that cat energy.

But I do feel bad about the toll our guy takes on birds, I find at least a few dead birds in the yard a year (or he brings them inside), and I'm sure there are more that I don't see. (I don't mind him wreaking havoc on the local baby rabbit population, because our neighborhood is overrun with bunnies.) I don't know. It's a little hard for me to imagine having an indoor-only cat again, but it could happen in the right circumstances. I don't judge anyone else's choices or priorities, I don't think it's an open-shut case either way.

I don't own any cats, but I've housesat for them for years.

most of the owners lived in houses and were ok with them going outside in the enclosed backyard area.

I still never like this as sometimes they liked to go there and hide from me or not want to come back in, or they could get under the fence if not careful.

the worst though, was when my live-in landlord's cat, when I let him out one night as the landlord indicated I should. this cat was a frail, old beat-up cat, 17 years old, badly fucked up spine, all kinds of ailments, very slow and weak. so ten minutes pass and he shows up at the door and his face looks weird, and I'm like what's up with your face.

then I looked closer and realized it had a dead cat in its mouth that it had just mercilessly slaughtered in the backyard.

I have a bad thing with rats. I wouldn't let him in until he released the rat (onto the carpet). it was only the next morning when I had the fortitude to pick up the dead rat and dispose of him. almost threw up after. cat outright gutted the fucker.

Once watched my parents cat devour an entire rat: head, body, feet, bones. Absolutely nothing left of it. Ngl after the initial shock it was absolutely fascinating. I watched the whole thing. Worried what this says about me.

brb....puking

Our cat does this sort of amazing surgical thing with mice. He peels them apart very delicately and eats the bits he likes — including the brains — and then leaves these vivisected corpses with neat piles of tiny organs next to them. Real Hannibal Lecter stuff.

once I was talking to my brother in the kitchen and suddenly he started violently gagging and I said you alright there? + his quite amusing reply was "I think I've just stood on the remains of a mouse" (in his socks)

remarkable collection of nightmarish posts in this thread today.

Shame on the rat sympathisers. Keep posting the gory details people

Tbh, I wish my cats ate rats whole. Don’t fancy finding decomposing rat body’s in our garden or decapitated heads on our bedroom floor

my cats have never encountered a rat so the closest i've come to witnessing their inner nature is the occasional decapitated roach

then I looked closer and realized it had a dead cat in its mouth that it had just mercilessly slaughtered in the backyard.

Gotta say I did not immediately clock that this was a typo and was like 😯

OMG

we were given a cat by my older sister when she came home from the Ram Dass ashram in college, she was named Girlie Girlie, they told us she only ate brewer's yeast

she was an amazing cat. she growled at us to stay away when we finally fed her meat

I suspect windows take out many more birds than cats.

Once watched my parents cat devour an entire rat: head, body, feet, bones.

I think I read once that one reason cats are so good at reducing rodent-born illnesses is that they don't eat the absolute entire thing and leave behind the (literally) shitty bits, whereas a dog will happily go around hoovering up rat poop all the time and therefore potentially spread rat-borne disease. Hell, my friend's dog obsessively sniffs around the backyard eating rabbit poop. And every dog owner knows that cat poop is a favorite dog treat. (I love dogs, but they're gross; there's a reason there are not many stinky cats).

The most horrific historic cat story I read was re: the siege of Leningrad. As the city starved they systematically ate all the pets (and eventually the odd person or two). As the people died the bodies literally piled up, since there was no place to bury them (the ground was frozen), and as the bodies piled up the rats moved in, feasting on the corpses and spreading disease. When the blockade was breached they had to bring in hundreds of cats from Siberia by train to take care of the rats. Apparently there are statues in their honor:

https://st4.depositphotos.com/1670286/21923/i/1600/depositphotos_219233568-stock-photo-russia-tyumen-july-2018-sculpture.jpg

Yeah, my parents cat did leave this little red part of the rat, looked like a stomach or spleen or something idk rat anatomy. I figured it was the nasty party of the rat. Was impressed he could eat around the whole thing except for this one little circle of red goo

Every city should have golden cat statues imo, haven’t they given us enough?

Every city should have golden cat statues imo, haven’t they given us enough?

I've been exposed to every side of this, and Have Thoughts.

When I was a child we had a few indoor/outdoor cats. Nowadays I keep cats inside. In my mind it's less about the cat's own safety than about the safety of local wildlife, and for my own peace of mind.

Also our current cat is not a candidate for hybrid life - he got out once by accident and it was traumatic for all concerned, so he's an inside cat for good or for ill.

In my youth I worked for an animal protection organization, and as a result I studied every angle and wrote on this topic frequently.

I also did some volunteer work with feral cats - fostering, taming, helping with trap/neuter/release programs. There is a lesser-of-evils logic to TNR. These cats will never be pets. They deserve to live, but it's best for them to be fixed. Kittens born feral can be successfully tamed. Some other alley cats can transition to barn life in rural settings.

Outdoor cats eating birds is a nontrivial issue. Waving it away as "nature gonna nature" oversimplifies. There are various views out there, but I am frankly too tired to debate the ethics.

So I will just send good wishes to all the people and beasts out there, hope you all have a good napping place and a regular source of food.

Outdoor cats eating birds is a nontrivial issue. Waving it away as "nature gonna nature" oversimplifies.

If it were not for the close relationship between domestic cats and people, the number of descendants of the original feline species who later became domesticated cats would be extremely small and they would all live in a very small area in north africa. we are directly responsible for the vast population of cats on earth. the millions of small birds they kill every year is a direct result of our actions or inactions.

But isn't that also saying that cats made a strategic alliance? Cats absolutely benefit from the cat-human relationship, they hitched themselves to a good ride. And they've been work animals for most of that time, they still are a lot of places. Plus of course they're fascinating weird lovable roommates. I'm not going to argue against the human-cat relationship. But I agree that its worst effects should be mitigated.

kinda hoping some intrepid ILXOR will turn this thread title into a song

If it were not for the close relationship between domestic cats and people, the number of descendants of the original feline species who later became domesticated cats would be extremely small and they would all live in a very small area in north africa. we are directly responsible for the vast population of cats on earth. the millions of small birds they kill every year is a direct result of our actions or inactions.

Aimless OTM. There was a sentiment expressed upthread like if a bird (who can fly) can't get away from a cat (who can't fly), then maybe that bird wasn't meant to live. That's the oversimplification I was referring to. Like, okay, but if humans have their thumb on the evolutionary scale then it's not really a fair Darwininian shakeout.

It's morally fraught, but I strongly doubt anyone whose mind is already made up is going to change their mind because of what we type here.

cos everytime I tried to tell you
the words just came out wrong
I hope an ilxor says outside cats are a sin
in a song

I'm not a cat owner and probably never will be, but the happiest, friendliest cat I've known was an indoor-outdoor cat. His name was Diabolo and he belonged to my housemates at the little house I lived at in slightly-rural Normandy. The first time I saw the place it was at dusk and there was mist over the fields, and then this white cat came walking out of the mist, and I thought, "yes, I want to live here." There were cows in the field, and sometimes he would slip under the fence and go hang out with the cows, who seemed to tolerate it just fine. But he loved people and when you got home he would come running to meet you just like a dog and jump up to your hand to be petted. Of course as an indoor-outdoor cat he didn't live long; he was hit by a car a couple of years after that. I have no idea how the ethics and wisdom of keeping him inside vs. outside adds up, but I'm glad I got to know him; he was a great cat.

re: impact of kits on the flappy folk ima just drop this here w/o comment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

again, not gonna comment but if i were to comment it’d prob be something along the lines of pots and kettles except like the pot has caused and is causing myriad — genocides? is that too loaded a term? well i spose we’re actually genociding ourselves/each other anyway so let’s just go with extinctions. and the kettle is one tiny weapon in the pot’s vast armory. and the pot is all “smdh @ u, kettle, with ur bloodthirsty destructive ways, tsk tsk, tut tut” while lounging on an ever-growing mountain of bones.

outside cats, it's too dark to read

Feels like I'm knockin' on heaven's cat door.

when I look back upon my life
it's never with a sense of shame
i ate the bird but i accept no blame
it's no sin

loll!

birbocide

There was a sentiment expressed upthread like if a bird (who can fly) can't get away from a cat (who can't fly), then maybe that bird wasn't meant to live.

Our cat doesn't do much hunting (or at least killing) anymore, even if his presence keeps pests away. But over the summer he did bring home a bird in his mouth. We were so proud of him, but then we learned that West Nile was making a lot of birds sick and vulnerable to old, fat cats.

ok if you look at the ethics of outdoor cattitude in terms of the CAT dying earlier, you may be thinking about it the wrong way round

Like, free-roaming predatory wild animals dying earlier is part and parcel of being wild predators - they take their chances. In some sense they may be happier this way, even given the risk. That is as it should be. There will be cars and foxes and coyotes and such. If you don't want your cat exposed to those possibilities, then keep your cat inside.

The proper question is about the animals they will inevitably eat when they're out there, and whether that is cool or not cool. I think that it is not cool, for reasons already discussed. But this, this is the relevant question in the thread.

The proper question is about the animals they will inevitably eat when they're out there, and whether that is cool or not cool. I think that it is not cool, for reasons already discussed.

considering that the majority of ILX is not vegan, (I'm not either), this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical. If the folks who are saying this are themselves vegan, then I stand corrected.

I totally get and respect the "i don't want my cat to get killed so i keep it inside" argument. Also, I am very glad that people have started posted pics of their cats in this thread.

personally I'm glad my landlord's cat killed that rat.

i stood over the rat and told it I was glad it was dead

but that's my fear of rats talking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSuH1E4yZxA

if you've had to smell and/or clean up ratshit, (not saying you haven't), you also have other reasons besides fear to appreciate the rodent death

don't you mean this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4H1RHqVI58

voted other, because it depends on where the "outside" is. would be a sin for us, as we have a nearby busy road and a garden that attracts birds.

this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical.

Well yeah it would be, if anyone had ever said what you quoted there. The issue isn't "cats shouldn't eat creatures" but "cumulatively, cats decimate wild bird populations and so we should consider that when deciding to let our pets roam outdoors"

sarahell, upon further thought I think it should be this one, do u see?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CYrJ1POzns

cumulatively, cats decimate wild bird populations and so we should consider that when deciding to let our pets roam outdoors

uh, that's just a more politely worded version of what I quoted ... still think that if y'all are merrily eating meat yourselves it still seems hypocritical. Or maybe the birds in your yards are just inherently more worthy of life than the ones you eat? idk ... it's not horrible to think that way tbh

Well yeah it would be, if anyone had ever said what you quoted there.

thx GD. I was going to say that climate change deniers and minimizers make an argument very similar to saying you must be a vegan to have legitimate concerns about the effects of half a billion cats on the ecosystem. It runs along the lines of: people who are clamoring about the climate crisis, but who still make use of gas-powered autos, fly in airplanes, or consume items transported by trucks are nothing but hypocrites, and they can't suggest that anyone else ought modify their habits until they have stopped using all fossil fuels themselves.

I've had inside cats all my adult life and haven't had any qualms about keeping them inside. Twice in the late oughts, an untagged/uncollared cat wandered up and adopted us, and I got it neutered and kept it fed as an outside cat. The first, Bruce, was a total stoner pal, and loved to climb into the large pot where I'd sown catnip and just laze around and occasionally smoke a bowl eat a leaf. He was safe in our fenced back yard, but one night he wandered into the front yard and was attacked and killed by roaming neighborhood dogs. This happened under my daughter's bedroom window, so she got to hear the whole thing. The next year, Ziggy adopted us, and one day went from apparently healthy to obviously dead of a respiratory issue before I could even get him to the vet. I like outside cats, and there are a couple on our block that come up to me for skritches, but the emotional whiplash is a bit much.

sara, the issue is more one of vast ecosystem destruction with songbirds as a major marker and domesticated and feral outdoor cats as one of the key concerns
https://www.birds.cornell.edu/home/bring-birds-back
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

there are some seriously delicious vegan "meats" and "cheeses" out there ... like, hey, you care about the bird population and ecosystems and you are keeping your cats inside because of it, that is a thoughtful thing to do ... another environmentally thoughtful thing you could do is reduce your own meat consumption.

The wildlife issue with domestic cats is far less killing and eating than killing for sport.

The “oh but you eat meat” argument would work if you’re talking to someone who goes out in the neighborhood killing birds and squirrels for the hell of it.

The first, Bruce, was a total stoner pal, and loved to climb into the large pot where I'd sown catnip and just laze around and occasionally smoke a bowl eat a leaf.

We have friends a couple of blocks away whose dog had clearly eaten something that was making it act off, and it turns out she got into the stoner neighbor's yard and went to town on a pot plant. The vet essentially said she just needed to sleep it off.

also imagine a factory farmed chicken would behave a bit like Sporky if released in the wild. the evil is baked into the bird's existence.

the problem with eating bird meat isn't that we are depleting a once thriving bird population. The problem is that we are fostering a monstrous bird population incompatible with the natural world, similar to fostering a monstrous predator cat population. In this comparison, eliminating the factory farmed bird population entirely is more similar to keeping your cat indoors. It makes no sense to draw comparison between eliminating the factory farmed bird population and eliminating the wild bird population.

considering that the majority of ILX is not vegan, (I'm not either), this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical

Considering that the majority of ILX eats meat, and people are made of meat, and people are very environmentally destructive, then the whole "don't eat people" stance is also a bit hypocritical.

I mean, since I eat bacon and hamburgers I might as well eat bald eagles and spotted owls and my neighbors' children, right?

Any other stance would be... hypocritical eek

I feel like we've collectively addressed the weaknesses of sarahell's 'hypocrisy' argument now.

"still think that if y'all are merrily eating meat yourselves it still seems hypocritical"

Then I still think you're not grasping the argument being put forth. But I get that it can be pretty difficult to part with a "the people I don't agree with a just hypocrites" comfort blanket.

(Tho fwiw I'm not a staunch "you shouldn't let your cat go outside" person)

as milo already correctly pointed out, the emphasis on cats being 'allowed to eat birds' is somewhat misplaced since non-feral cats that hunt and kill small birds and animals rarely eat them anyway; they are usually very well-fed and do it for reasons other than appeasing their hunger.

because they're adorable little psychopaths

I was inspired to become vegetarian by a lost cat poster. I realized I couldn't justify my compassion for a cat while eating a different animal.

whenever you have the choice between killing and not killing, not killing is best. keep kitties safe inside, play with them a lot, provide stimulating environments and experiences so they don’t get bored, be a good servant and steward to all the creatures around you.

some cats won’t ever be happy with that, though, and some cat owners can’t provide it. then you have to balance the happiness/misery of the animal whose life you’ve personally taken responsibility for with the dangers and vulnerabilities of your immediate ecosystem, which can differ vastly from country to country, region to region, neighborhood to neighborhood.

gonna paws here to reiterate, keeping kitties inside is best and everyone shld try it wherever feasible

but there’s no pristine ecological system left to preserve, those horses escaped that barn centuries ago, and the barn is on fire and the horses are on fire and everything is on fire and the rising seas will swallow it all up anyway

https://www.britannica.com/science/invasive-species

https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/nature-decline-unprecedented-report/

this is not to abdicate responsibility! even if everything’s burning it’s still morally indefensible to just give up and add to the blaze for the numb nihilism of it. but a dozen ilxors and their pets, strewn across the globe, will have no impact either way.

so hug your cats, spay and neuter your kids, skynet for presidetn 2024

also what is the root of Neando’s rat antipathy, i met a rat once and it was a very nice person

https://imgur.com/a/XYhJYft

Pele sez go veg

https://imgur.com/a/B7F4Iql

also buy four of horses by softer drive, available at a bandcamp near u

https://imgur.com/a/m6Lvd1V

FTR I am well aware that when I open a can of cat food for my inside cat, what he's getting is bits of birds and fish who were once alive. Further, I know that I regularly nom on animals. That doesn't mean that letting my cats loose inside the Small Mammal House at the zoo would be okay. There are differences in degree and in kind at play here.

Now it makes sense why they asked me to leave that zoo

I have an indoor cat and I am vegetarian, hmu if you want me to post an opinion itt

If god had wanted cats indoors hed have made them with little houses already around them imo

The diversion into the morality of veganism in animals is already a strong contender for 2022 best ofs

right like church mice and barn owls

precisely

opine, rob, opine!!! and post pic of catkin?

Ya Kid K is back again
Outside cats, is it a sin?

human habits can foster an oversize population of one animal or another. sometimes we hunt them to prevent a disruption. I guess we don't generally shoot cats with rifles like deer, but we do catch and kill them. keeping your cat inside so it doesn't heathcliff the hood seems a reasonable and compassionate request that has nothing to do with veganism in animals.

All cats guilty until proven innocent does not sound a progressive starting position to me tbh

^^this is the case. Each cat has a different level of aggression, different responses to the world around them. I respect all of the arguments brought against inside cats (danger of their death, effect on the environment around them), and I think about these things before deciding to allow my cats outside and only allow them out because in my context I don't see these effects really happening. Obviously I could be blind to the mass destruction they are performing or the death-hound and band of coyotes that secretly live at my neighbours and the 11:30pm traffic rush on my dead-end cul-de-sac that I have never noticed, but hey you gotta roll with the cards you've got and I think the happiness and quality of life they are getting because of their outside privileges is worth it.

Besides, they spend 90% of the day asleep on my bed anyways, lazy bastards.

case in point

https://imgur.com/610YcKr

test post, I think this is how you post images.

https://i.imgur.com/610YcKr.jpeg

opine, rob, opine!!! and post pic of catkin?

― cat? (cat), Monday, January 3, 2022 7:25 PM (thirty-four minutes ago)

opinion: people should eat less meat!

pic:

https://imgur.com/myqe2jx

ah right I did the thing too

https://i.imgur.com/myqe2jx.jpg

The diversion into the morality of veganism in animals

this was such a badly wrought provocation that you should consider turning in your provocateur's license, deems

What if i agreed to go through an agent

those are both really great pictures

wait did i post mine wrong, did my 3 excellent portraits not show up, should i post them again

many fine cats itt

xps - said agent would simply deliver similarly dismal results at one remove

this is important, it’s worth the risk of double posting:

consume veggie

https://i.imgur.com/fLKLLwx.jpg

love music

https://i.imgur.com/986xDef.jpg

https://softerdrive.bandcamp.com/releases

I like your smudgy puff

i like her too!!!!!!! very very much!!!!!!!!!!!

https://i.imgur.com/FmJ94bF.jpg

♥️ ♥️

Yowzah!

Everyone get in here and post photos of your cats!

Gus before an arvo beer

https://i.imgur.com/tymdLT0.jpg

Gus after an arvo beer

https://i.imgur.com/F3YJvV1.jpg

lol

https://i.imgur.com/Z5hJm9b.jpg?1

bones is goin outside over my dead body

would snorgle all this kitties by golly

bones looks very proper

these cats look nice enough, but their looks belie a bird murdering rage

We had one cat who wanted to be an outside cat so desperately. In order to enter the house, you would have to open the door a crack and stick your foot through it to shoo him away and interrupt his escape plans. His escapes were successful a few times. Once, he fell out of a tall tree and ended up with some serious bruising. I tried harness training him, but he never enjoyed it.

The three cats we have now show little interest in going outside, even though two of them were literal strays we rescued from an abandoned house in our neighborhood. They have spent hours trying to get at our parakeets though and once successfully caught one. That bird survives until this day, despite having been plucked from the literal jaws of death. I've bought them feather-chasing toys such as Da Bird and Mystery Motion. Those help a lot with exercising their hunting instincts.

Murder on their minds:
https://i.imgur.com/5QZvGMl.jpg

My girl Connie, who I relate to a lot:
https://i.imgur.com/RzTRgo6.jpg

Here's the two weird ways Oscar has been sleeping lately:

https://i.imgur.com/BTlWHyi.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Afv6j0F.jpg

Hmm. Reminds me of someone I know. Nice.

love that this has turned into WDY(cat)LL. my handsome boy Chauncey, contemplating the horrible 'outdoors' with disgust and loathing. if he ever encountered a bird face to face, the bird would surely murder him without trouble.

http://i.imgur.com/4OfV8t7.jpg

Also, I'm currently reading the Warriors book series with my daughter. They're chapter books for kids about clans of feral cats who live in the woods and hunt the hell out of birds (in between murdering each other and lots of other general drama). As far as I've read, they have discussed food scarcity issues rising from human encroachments on the environment, but not the depletion of bird populations caused by cats themselves. However, I have some serious catching up to do. Maybe this will be covered in a more recent book.

Chauncey is a dapper man.

I had to give up on those Warrior books due to murdering of helpless kittens by rival clans ;_;

Warriors, stay in and play

Those are the "kittypets" which must always be said with a vicious sneer.

Yeah, it's definitely a brutal series. It's got my kid into reading again though, which she was veering away from for a while.

Always a good thing! I started 2021 with it (due to ILXor sunny successor) after a 2020 of not being able to read much, so it got me kick-started as well.

On a selfish level, if everyone kept their cats inside, then I wouldn't get to make friends with the cats in my neighbourhood.

We walk our dogs around the block at bedtime, and before our cats got too old and housebound, they used to come with us. It was great. Sometimes, if I was bringing the dogs to the green at the bottom of the road for a little run around in the day, our tom cat Linus would come with us and hang about getting pets from the local kids. He loved to socialize with people. I never liked him being out without me, though. I had to scare the shit out of some kids one day who threw a stone at him when he was chilling in the front garden, minding his own business. I happened to be standing right beside the front door and ran out and ROARED at them. They never came near my house again. I'm lucky they didn't hit him, because if they had I might have really lost my shit at them and then I would've got in trouble.

Great photos of Oscar. Give that meaty boy a big ol’ pat from his biggest internet fan, H.P

Great photos of Oscar. Give that meaty boy a big ol’ pat from his biggest internet fan, H.P

Great photos of Oscar. Give that meaty boy a big ol’ pat from his biggest internet fan, H.P

Willie Wildman, Cali from accounting, Cherry the Arkansas Redcat, Security Chief Leon, and Miss Pamela of the GTOs at their least murderous:
https://imgur.com/a/OyTu1xV

And the CEO's grandson, Squit (who was declawed by a previous owner before being abandoned on a freeway onramp in Florida):
https://imgur.com/Cc3kCvl

good job ILX! keep the cat pics coming! <3

That's a hell of a band pic, Jaq!

awesome! not sure how anyone could get a picture like that

leo has taken to eating canned pumpkin as a treat. he loves it. here's a photo of him not eating pumpkin.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FITZ-bEVgAEHkUA?format=jpg&name=medium

Awwww Leo, what a gorgeous boy!

(I've been clicker training these guys - Squit is just not interested, but all the rest of the crew is very treat motivated.)

they are very statuesque

Boys will do anything for their treats

Jaq's group photo is amazing!

amazing, adorable, vaguely ominous - checks all the boxes.

not to damn it with faint praise but it has strong meme potential

top cat that Leo

all the cat pics are v welcome & appreciated ^v^

There's a feral outdoor cat that's made appearances in the neighborhood over the last few years. We've all had the same observation, that while very wary of people he seems to have no problem with other cats, nor they with him. That's something I've always wondered about exclusively indoor cats. They're inside with their people, cordoned off from the rest of the world, spoiled, special, the only cat in the world, and then one day, out the window ... they see another cat! WTF? I know they're probably wired to recognize them, but part of them must be totally freaked out. And then every day for the rest of their life inside, they're probably thinking, did I hallucinate? Did I see another cat? Will I ever see another cat!? (The rest of the time they will be sleeping.)

its funny, ive had indoor cats who fully lost their minds at their first sight of another cat and ones who couldnt have given less of a fuck. with my current indoor cat who has never seen another cat, i often wonder about what his sense of self is like, whether he thinks me and him are the same kind of animal or not.

Heh. When my outdoor cat, Clementine, appears on the other side of the screen door, Sappho runs right up to her. Oftentimes, this freaks Clementine out and she retreats to a more comfortable distance! This is a little surprising, as Clementine is much bigger and tougher than li'l Sapphy. I guess her wariness fear of other cats takes control. Eventually, we adopted Alex, who's even tinier than Sappho, and a little shier toward the big mean cat outside. He too is clearly curious about her.

I wonder what my Persians must think about their confinement to the house, and suspect they might pine for the freedom to roam when confronted with Clementine's presence. I'm glad we managed to socialize my indoor cats and they have each other's company to enjoy. Sappho seemed a bit listless for some months before Alex entered the picture.

On preview: exactly what One Eye Open says! It seems very dependent on personality. And I have the same questions about what cats must think of us and how they conceive of the human species.

one of my cats will run at and attack any strange cat in his territory (the last time this happened he came off worse, because he'd just had his claws done, is mostly indoors and not really used to fighting for real as usually the other cat legs it before anything happens, the invading cat being a fully outdoor cat probably has been in a lot more scrapes than mine has). the other is more likely to run away

I think one of the books I've read about cats (The Lion in the Living Room?) does say that research suggests cats at least in some ways relate to us as other big cats, that they see us as part of the pride (or whatever) at a level above them. The way they relate to each other, though, our vet once described it as not that different from how people relate, similar to roommates. Some roommates become friends, some are just there, some are antagonistic, etc. Some click, some don't.

I LOVE CATS I LOVE THEM SO SO MUCH T____T

i read a book called Cat Sense recently that got into that, with the author positing that cats see us as some combination of parent and giant clumsy alpha-cat. the roommate idea is funny bc this author also got into a theory that cats who live in proximity but are not related will often invest energy into maintaining cordial relations with each other, and will periodically show affection or deference to each other as a way of sort of keeping up a good working relationship without actually being "friends". i am very much amused by the idea of a cat thinking "i havent rubbed my face on that other cats face in a while, i better make some time to go do it so things dont get weird between us around the automatic feeder."

like behind their rep as the ultimate in dgaf swag they have annoying social obligations just like the rest of us

Wonderful pics in this thread!

Bibi, glimpsing a robin through a window, before we'd ever let her out. Her outdoorsyness wouldn't be denied... but, a year later, that was also the end of her :(

https://live.staticflickr.com/4770/25750504558_9ede293808_b.jpg

Harriet, on her own now, encountering snow for the first time. (Went missing for 18 days summer 2020... there's a lot to be said for indoor enforcement).

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50908978818_d025e5c4c8_b.jpg

the roommates idea sort of works. I used to have 3 cats:

#1 & #2 = friends
#1 & #3 = just there
#2 & #3 = antagonistic

no longer have cat #2 so now I have 2 cats that basically just deal with each other but aren't really friends, which kinda sucks because it was so cute when #1 & #2 used to cuddle together. #1 & #3 mostly tolerate each other but do fight a bit, normally just around feeding times

yeah, lol. it's funny because cats don't have the same transparency/obviousness behaviorally as dogs do ... like dogs with barrier frustration who bark

Idk if an alien examined how humans view the cats they live with they might conclude humans think of cats as a smaller, dumber, perpetually childlike member of their clan. But it's not like we REALLY are confused by what they are yanno? I assume it's the same for how cats view us. Plus they don't sit around contemplating classifications like humans do. Accept reality for what it is and live in the moment.

xps to One Eye and MJ:

Beautiful picsharz <3 <3

I read 'Cat Sense'! Forgot about that (good) analogy, that to our cats we're giant, clumsy, unpredictable cats. That is an excellent book, it gave me lots more understanding and sympathy for cat-kind's struggle to meet the demands that human domesticity places upon them.

Speaking of cats and living in the moment, I would like to read this book: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/cats-and-the-good-life/

Integrating 6 grown cats into one household has been incredibly interesting - just observing their interactions and working through all the introductions (and omg litterbox issues). I started the clicker training as a desperate attempt to get 3 of them to stop stalking and attacking Cherry who by rights was first cat but didn't know how to deal with bullies. Adding Cali, Leon, and Squit to the mix each within 2 weeks of each other (after Jimmy disappeared) was rough for a bit in that the intros couldn't be super slow. But all are fairly respectful of the others now and there is no extended outright aggression any more - generally a peaceable kingdom right now. The balance of cat power shifts rapidly at times though, so you never know.

I mean, who among us *doesn't* like to sleep face down like a chunky weirdo?

https://i.imgur.com/msuimtL.jpg

we've got one who does that all the time, not sure how he manages to breath in that position

breath breathe

<3 that "full loaf" sleeping

https://imgur.com/a/NDbYNfv.jpeg

Currently experiencing the down side of granting outside privileges: I haven’t seen my beautiful Butch pictures above in 24hrs now 🙁 in all likely hood he will walk in before the end of today as he’s never been away for any longer than a day and a bit, but it definitely sucks not knowing where they are even if there’s a pretty low chance of danger (this dude runs and hides from everything and stays out of sight of anything that moves, he is definitely the most danger aware of my three boys).

my cat sleeps face down often. she likes to put her paws face up and smush her face into them. i call them her paw pillows.

Best wishes for safe Butch return, H.P.

Many thanks <3

loool cat loaf <3 <3

Butch is majestic btw.

FWIW, during the last week I hadn't seen my Clementine in 4 days, and I was buggin. Then, Monday morning, she scampered right up to me as I took groceries into the house.

Hopefully Butch turns up sooner than that, H.P., but take heart that he's probably just fine, out there doing his cat thing living the good solitary cat life <3

As predicted, here is butch 30 seconds after me finding him at the door and him eating just enough bickies to get crumbs all over his chin. Thanks for the well wishing Davey, made me feel better.

https://imgur.com/a/d6AVWNt.jpg

*fist pump* yessss

Aw Butch is both majestic and a sweet goober <3

Jaq is playing Neko Atsume for real

Lololol you're not wrong! With the upgraded food and all the fun toys even :)

Another vote for Cat Sense

Butchieeeee do not scare us like that! so happy he came home safe

Went for a walk around the beach yesterday and ran into my sweet 70ish yo neighbour across the road who informed me that my Gus had learnt how to use her cat door and would come in most mornings to say gday to her and her cat Dexter. Apparently Gus and Dexter get along really well, and have formed some sort of agreement that Gus can nip at the remains of Dexter kangaroo mince brekky (way better than the stuff we give him!). I naturally at first apologised for Gus’s breaking and entering but she assured me having Gus around is one of the highlights of her day.

We spent 20 minutes talking about our cats and their blossoming social lives. Sweet suburbia

i feel like there is already a very contentious thread on this subject here called 'indoor kitty' or something

ah ha "She's an indoor kitty..."

One of those things against having indoor/outdoor cats is they will proudly bring in their still live catch. I spent yesterday morning navigating an unharmed bird out of my house. I have other horror stories they've done that I'll avoid mentioning.

i posted this on another cat thread a couple years ago but it belongs here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3-sie5pNUE

This fellow Curtis gets in and out, mostly out for his First Summer but mostly in for his First Winter, whatever he pleases really, I'm basically a butler at this point. Last few weeks he has sat at the window nardising at the birds in the near trees, then the neighbour started putting bread out for the birds so they were down on the grass and I opened window for him and he was out stalking, came haring back in whiley later with something in his mouth, I was secretly proud at his capacity to kill and right enough, he had caught... a piece of stale bread, bless. He's the most ill-behaved cat I have ever known (lately stealing fag-ends out the ashtray to throw about) but also the most gregarious, his two best friends are the postie and a cat from across the close called Sonny or possibly Sunny, I have only heard it aloud. He's no Xabi (RIP) and Xabi was no Kenny (STILL ALIVE in my heart, he just went away) and Kenny was no Paisley (RIP, ok the only cat in my lifetime to die to traffic, but I blame the driver, long painful story I don't want to relitigate. But he was a proper village cat, he used to follow me to the Doctor's and wait outside the door, or stroll down the street to visit my mother's aged cats that he knew as a kitten). But Paisley was The Greatest and no one could live up to him, mostly I LOVE Curtis and his obnoxious foibles.

Just now he brung in a frozen BEE, all excited. I assume it was pre-dead from the frost but he was so proud, and so narked when I took it off him (cus DEAD BEES CAN STILL STING!). So he's scratching at window currently to get back out and see what else he can "hunt"

I've heard that a significant percentage of indoor/outdoor cats have second (or more) families that feed them, sometimes let them in, etc.

One time Kenny was "out" all night, came home somewhat perfumed, it was noted from multiples, and I thought HMMMM, I kinda don't trust the creepy cat lady over, one time So(/u?)nny came to call on Curtis and put his nose and paws in my window and she clapped at him told him to come home, I wanted to shout at her aye, I know who's enticing my cats into her creepy house (but I didn't cus I'm a good neighbour and also freak out at human interaction). I've seen her making eyes though and shoogling treats...

In fact that boy just came chapping right now, this is them necking as greeting:
https://i.imgur.com/lf6Vcl3.jpeg

Aw.

I have a friend that had a cat stolen (!) by a neighbor!

xpost "Hmm, what kind of creature are you? Whiskers, ears, tail ... holy shit, it's another cat!" (Hissing and scratching commences)

Josh, one of my childhood cats would vanish for suspiciously long times. We found out that a neighbor was feeding him crab meat. She was surprised that we had any objection. Apropos of nothing, that cat was named Jeep (for his ability to travel vertically up furniture).

Our current cat, Oliver, had been a stray when we met him. A family acquaintance found him at a bus stop and thought we might be a good choice of home.

My wife and children loved him immediately and wanted to keep him. I was a little skeptical, because he looked like a kittypet and probably already had a family.

As it turned out, he had a chip and did, in fact, have a family. But that family didn't want him back and had already replaced him. Apparently he had too much cattitude for them. Hence he became ours. He is good beastkind.

But it took a while - he escaped once, before he'd had time to really grasp the concept of home. It was a big effort to get him back. Hence he's inside for the foreseeable future. Honestly I'd feel a smidge better about letting him out if I had any confidence he would return.

outside of an aforementioned cat that had passed on, my other 2 cats were abandoned by a tenant that had previously rented the place we were living at the time. our landlord didn't have the heart to take them to the kennel as they were very nice and sweet and were known to have been outdoor cats. this was pretty far out in the country, maybe 5 other houses within a mile of our place. over time we'd check in on them/feed them and eventually adopted them as our own.

These cats sound marvelous and I would like to see pictures of them plz

& more stories of catventures w/ happy endings purr favor

toesy bro:

https://i.imgur.com/MwflQZv.jpg

I also, would like to request the furtherance of happy cat stories and furry photos.

In return, here is one of my own. Notice Butch’s subtle claw-flex just in case Gus tries any funny business.

https://imgur.com/a/lf9C1MJ.jpg

xp: so many toes!

yesss, thread delivers.

i'm dead tired but i will return with stories/photos

Outside cats benefit the community. The three main outside cats in my London square are valued personal friends.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJBWEYUXwAMDI_s?format=jpg&name=small

Good job everyone

https://i.imgur.com/iLLlFhL.jpg

one of mine sleeping in a gardenbed of cilantro

tbrr w/u i am scrolling through and only looking at the pictures itt

the important thing is that

https://i.imgur.com/qfZYfRC.jpg

tho we must also keep in mind

https://i.imgur.com/lAhV07A.jpg

i would like to add that

https://i.imgur.com/xfdM55B.png

clay otm

Not to be a contrarian, but we all need to keep in mind that
https://imgur.com/a/FGN8zuI.jpg

Good lord I used the same phrase as cowboy. Ban me pls

See thread: Reusing the same phrase used in a post several posts above yours - is it a sin?

not when you are making an excellent point, as H.P has! we can’t let minor concerns over word choice distract us from

https://i.imgur.com/tCaGzSg.jpg

Automatic thread bump. This poll is

http://i.imgur.com/rpf9D9X.jpg

https://giphy.com/gifs/Ybp1giphetsePsHxjI

my client considers the matter closed and is unwilling to offer further comment

Without outside cats, there can be no...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48632574832_2823fb1b00_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48504536986_55066d6468_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51528922593_d51a8ae438_b.jpg

wish flappy bird was around to offer their perspective

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJGeBH8XwAokAVb?format=jpg&name=large

JUSTICE FOR SIMPKIN

SIMPKIN JUST WANTS TO LEARN, DAMMIT

THERE’S NOTHING IN THE RULES THAT SAYS A CAT CAN’T HAVE A LIBRARY CARD

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJJjd4cXoAQ_J48?format=jpg&name=large

apparently they already have a more civilised regular indoor/outdoor cat in this particular library called Walter. This unbidden intruder thug-cat Simpkin (who belongs at Hertford!) has been causing him some distress.

this is a matter for the cats to hash out between themselves, in the age-old battle for dominion over human knowledge and the right to snooze on that knowledge

Consider yourself lucky your library would have two cats! oh but to have only one :(

Agree that his seems to be a problem for the cats and the Brits considering their history would do well to stick to matters of their own kind. Let the Cats govern themselves

H.P otm, as am i. if this “walter” chap cannot defend his library then perhaps he should consider a less demanding and competitive venue, like a bodega or a wharf. libraries belong to those cats with the will to take them. this is the immutable law of the jungle and human interference will only disrupt the natural order of things.

Cowboy Bopeep a Simpkin burner account confirmed.

i’m just sayin you pull one thread and the whole house of cards could come unraveled, sheep on the bus, badgers in the closet, i don’t think the uk can handle any more chaos right now

JCO steps into the controversy

is this really good? our poor enervated indoor cats get virtually no exercise, ever. they are born to hunt, stalk, chase, kill, devour their prey, even in the dark...instead, not only are they fed constantly, their food is placed literally in front of their mouths. not good. https://t.co/1Wnv08DZx3

— Joyce Carol Oates (@JoyceCarolOates) January 17, 2022

We have an indoor/outdoor cat and there's no way we could keep him permanently indoors - on the few occasions we've had to keep him in for a few days, he's gone stir crazy insane. When I was living in Paris, I heard numerous stories of "chats d'appartement" who fell to their deaths from balconies - and I used to watch with horror a cat across the road from our apartment block, who would leap from one impossibly narrow ledge to another, five floors up.

It's tricky as no doubt cats are a scourge on the local wildlife, although I'm pretty sure my particular cat doesn't manage to catch anything beyond cockroaches and small lizards.

It was extremely cold in NJ yesterday, so I emailed my mom to check up on her, and as part of that, asked how her cat was doing. He goes out; he even has a little "igloo" on her back porch that he hangs out in, but I figured he might have converted to an indoor lifestyle. Turned out he hadn't been outside since October, but then went outside yesterday and lasted about a minute before curling up right next to her wood stove. She lives on the edge of a state park and has seen bears in her driveway in the past, but the cat seems to know not to go outside when there are large predators around.

This morning our cat projectile vomited his wet food all over the basement windowsill, where he was sitting, staring out. I would have much preferred he did that barfing outside.

“our poor enervated indoor cats get no exercise”

i’m sorry i’m assuming jco had a big house and cat toys. for fuck’s sake

has*

damn what luck josh, your cat threw up on glass instead of a rug. good for you

Ha, actually, the cat missed the window entirely and did it all over the windowsill/ledge (it's on the stairs leading down), where it *then* dripped down ... onto the carpet.

cats are very good at picking where to throw up it’s amazing

i’m sorry i’m assuming jco had a big house and cat toys. for fuck’s sake

I'm imagining poor, enervated JCO holding a cat toy and staring at it, wondering what it is, how it could possibly be used, why anyone would think she would need such a thing.

Most of my cats are not hunters. The one who is used to love it when I threw her kibble up the stairs, a piece at a time, so she could hunt it and kill it. Even she can't be arsed with that carry-on nowadays.

i imagine she is affluent enough that she could hire a personal trainer for her cat

but seriously -- more pics

https://i.imgur.com/U7PdCjL.jpg

Context: this is from last summer, when some birds were sick and sluggish with iirc West Nile, which explains how my guy, arthritic, missing a canine and blind in one eye, was able to catch his first anything in years.

That is a great picture Josh. Captures it all

Heeeeeeat veeeeeeeeent
https://i.imgur.com/TCaphW6.jpg

Norm outside at the end of summer.

https://i.imgur.com/8XL8Ed6.jpg

And trying to get back INside:

https://i.imgur.com/Yp3By2f.jpg

YOU are cold. They have fur.
Do not let inside. pic.twitter.com/WrVIdF9mkh

— Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation (@OKWildlifeDept) January 20, 2022

I take it those furry kitties have the tendency to rip the face of people? Otherwise how could you not let a playful kitty like that into you home

Found out how to get Butch to stay with me when I’m studying too. I introduce, the washing basket.

https://i.imgur.com/XsjZ47b.jpg

Had a great lesson in the natural order of things very early this morning. Our daughter woke us up around 3am because she thought she heard a woman screaming outside. We figured it was an animal or a cat fight, and because we have other animals around here and our cat was outside, my wife went downstairs to let him in. She said when he came inside his tail was all bushy, but also that when she opened the door to call him she was met with this horrifying shriek from the darkness. She didn't know what it was, just that it was some demonic animal. Based on that description we surmised it was probably a fox, and when I woke up I googled and found a clip that my daughter and wife confirmed was what she heard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk1mAd77Hr4

What's interesting, though, is that our cat didn't even react to the clip I played, staying sound asleep. Makes sense, the fox is not really a threat or predator, more an outdoor peer, and the cat is ambivalent at best about youtube clips. But when I called up a sound clip of coyotes, just to rule it out, he leapt from his chair in the other room at full attention, eyes wide, wildly looking toward the windows then to the computer then to me and back again. Because his tiny little brain apparently knows, through instinct or experience, what a coyote is, and knows they are bad news.

Meanwhile, our big guy was pretty happy to enjoy a near '70 degree day yesterday (though weirdly enough he seems to prefer colder weather; maybe it's the fur?)

https://i.imgur.com/CkdvAS1.jpg

We had a male indoor cat who, inexplicably, started pissing everywhere. On everything. There may be a way to break male cats of this habit, but I never found it. Anyway, he was exiled to the outdoors where he has happily lived for more than a dozen years. He never goes off very far, and despite the near constant presence of coyotes and foxes in the neighborhood has managed to stay in one piece.

This morning in a pleasant change to the monotony of dead lizards, we instead woke up to a half eaten sausage roll my cats had dragged off the street onto our bedroom floor

"it's for you"

I do appreciate that this is there way of expressing love

You provide food for us, we provide food for you kind of deal

imagine your cats instead of Lana del Rey in "Video Games"