Sight and Sound 2022 Round 4: 61-80

Gonna need to rewatch a few of these....

I must say...Céline and Julie Go Boating wore out my patience earlier this week, despite loving it several years ago and admiring Chytilová's Daisies, watched for the first time last month.

it wore me out too...not one I'm keen to revisit.

If I had to vote right now it would be La Jetée

There is a paragraph in Tony Judt's massive Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945 where he goes in on how much he hates Celine and Julie, claiming it's when the New Wave began to parody itself. He was wrong, of course. He also digresses about how much he hated punk rock.

Sansho the Bailiff. The cinematography is stunning, the suicide by drowning scene makes me cry every time!

The Red Shoes, probably

I may go with the only Antonioni film I adore, the best film about white liberal racist guilt (Imitation of Life), or The Third Man.

voted for Spirited Away so that it would have at least one vote

i had the privilege of watching andrei rublev with dr morbius, at BAM in brooklyn. i didn't know what to say about it, as we were walking out afterward. i love tarkovsky, and i'm hard pressed to think of anything of his that i wouldn't eagerly watch. i love it all. why that is, i have a hard explaining, as is true with most art that i like

i have a hard TIME explaining

Did Daughters of the Dust go missing?

I've seen all of these except the two Miyazaki, and will try and see at least one of those this week, but this mostly reads to me like a list of films that I admire and other people love. I liked Céline and Julie Go Boating the single time I saw it and wasn't bored at all. I would have voted Rublev back in school but I know I can't bear to watch it again.

how many times have you seen rublev? i've only seen in the one time.

*it

goddamn, i'm sorry for my many millions of typos over the last few years, i really need to just calm down and re-read what i'm posting before hitting submit, it's not hard.

Did Daughters of the Dust go missing?

yes...shit, sorry. I will add it to the next poll!

I've seen Rublev three or four times, including the 200 min Passion of Andrei Rublev cut at least once.

Didn't realise Moonlight had this kind of stature. (I finally saw it a few months ago, and didn't dislike it, to be clear.)

I hadn't noticed these polls. Maybe this can be my cue to finally watch Goodfellas, my remaining blindspot here.

All That Heaven Allows is in the end the greatest Sirk film for me

This will be two Tarkovsky votes in a row for me, but Andrei Rublev is pretty much my favorite movie period. I love it more every time I watch it. There's so much in it. (I always feel bad about the horses tho.)

That's why I can't rewatch.

Moonlight is a beautiful film with a devoted following

A little tired of Goodfellas, will probably vote for The Third Man. Andrei Rublev and La Jetée are impressive, but I think I like The Third Man better.

I love Sunset Blvd. the most of these and am voting for it, but also L'avventura, Le Jetee, Andrei Rublev, My Neighbor Totoro, and Spirited Away are all great and deserve votes

Hmm

Sunset Blvd. is the ultimate gothic Hollywood film - a horror film, a mystery, or a love film, depending on where you are approaching it from in life

tossed a vote to a matter of life and death, it deserves one!

the red shoes is the last of these i saw that really blew me away, so that's my vote i guess.

i remember being so excited to see la jetee and being kinda disappointed, but that was many years ago.

sansho the bailiff and mizoguchi in general feel like they are top priority 'need to watch next' films that i haven't seen yet. also rossellini.

the gleaners and i is good but something about its pov struck me as a little out of touch the last time i watched it

the miyazakis absolutely deserve to be here

Only two I haven't seen this time: Journey to Italy and Goodfellas. I'll probably watch Journey at least. Hard to imagine anything beating Celine et Julie, though.

I've loved how those Rossellini films have received deserved reevaluation in the last decade, especially Journey to Italy; they presage beautiful-actress-walks-among-rocks-and-cityscapes Antonioni films by a decade.

Andrei Rublev and La Jetée are impressive, but I think I like The Third Man better.

The Third Man is the one it most hurts me not to vote for. Rewatched it recently, just a perfect film.

Really tough to pick but went with Spirited Away. A perfect movie imho

Great showing for the Brits in this batch. Voting Red Shoes as I think Third Man won't need my help.

Touki Buki is well worth seeing.

Out of the recentish movies to qualify, Moonlight is one I'm confident in thinking will hold on to its canonical status.

Chris L at 12:25 16 Feb 23

There is a paragraph in Tony Judt's massive Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945 where he goes in on how much he hates Celine and Julie, claiming it's when the New Wave began to parody itself. He was wrong, of course. He also digresses about how much he hated punk rock.

Celine and Julie is one of those movies that make me love the artform. It’s like something from another planet, but familiar from my dreams.

this group has more personal favourites in it than the preceding. impossible to pick among the two P&Ps and two Miyazakis, so I voted for Touki Bouki

Calzino OTM about the astonishing beauty of the suicide scene in Sansho the Bailiff - Mizogouchi seems to bend nature itself to his mise en scene.

Voted for Celine and Julie, which I discovered through the enthusiasm of a friend who died some years ago - a film about friendship and time, for all time.

I remember somebody telling me about Tony Judt and thinking "this is somebody I should read!" but then I couldn't get through a paragraph, and then I decided I didn't like the person who recommended it either.

I recommend Postwar, actually: read it after Eric Hobsbawm's Age of Extremes. As usual, excellent and not-so-excellent political writers know shit about music.

Agreed, have got a lot out of this and The Age of Extremes, third book I would add to the mix is Louis Menand's The Free World - would look to none of these for tips on film or music though.

The Menand book surprised me. I expected discrete New Yorker essays held in place by Menand's New Yorker-y POV, and while I cringed at times the narrative's compelling, especially when he concentrates on culture and cultural politics.

There was a lot about the architects of US government policies from the 30s to the 60s which was not what I was expecting at all, it was a little difficult to get through at times but ultimately rewarding, feel like in some ways it's a US-centred companion piece to Postwar, which is very much about Europe and only Europe (if anyone can suggest more books along these lines then please let me know)

It’s LA JETÉE or IMITATION OF LIFE

Both are basically top 5 films for me

A Matter of Life and Death

I've shown Modern Times in class three times, each time the students are in awe that a Silent Film Can Be Funny.

The Third Man (Reed, 1949)
L’avventura (Antonioni, 1960)
Journey to Italy (Rossellini, 1954)
Spirited Away (Miyazaki, 2001)
Sansho the Bailiff (Mizoguchi, 1954)
Imitation of Life (Sirk, 1959)

^^^ gonna be one of these for me

Tough choice among several but maybe Gleaners for me.

It's Spirited Away for me, with Totoro and Andrei Rublev coming close

bunch of actual bangers in this list

so much so i haven't voted Sansho even tho it's so fucking amazing

celine and julie only gets more liberating, funny and astounding each time i see it. it is also the objectively correct answer here.

obvs no complaints at mambety placing but touki-bouki is easily his worse work and it's a shame hyenas and little girl who sold the sun arent here instead

Hyenas is fantastic. I will look for little girl..

There is a paragraph in Tony Judt's massive Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945 where he goes in on how much he hates Celine and Julie, claiming it's when the New Wave began to parody itself. He was wrong, of course. He also digresses about how much he hated punk rock.

― Chris L, Thursday, 16 February 2023 bookmarkflaglink

So so lame. Rivette was the only other guy in the Nouvelle Vague besides Godard who seemed like he had a vision.

I'd add Rohmer.

But I can understand the ambiguity between a "vision" and an "ethos."

These are the ones I haven't seen (saw Totoro last week). The Gleaners and I is the one I can see being a contender, otherwise it's Rivette or Mizoguchi.

The Gleaners and I (Varda, 2000)
Modern Times (Chaplin, 1936)
Spirited Away (Miyazaki, 2001)

xp: I think Rohmer made some great films. And that's fine.

Almost voted Imitation of Life; voted for Sansho.

Imitation of Life is favorite. Will have to decide between that and my other favorites.#killyrdarlings

Is a favorite

Always feel like I'm missing something with Sirk.

It's the many murders happening in the background of every shot

otm

This is a very good batch but these three in a row has me stifling a small yawn:

The Third Man (Reed, 1949)
Goodfellas (Scorsese, 1990)
Casablanca (Curtiz, 1942)

My Sarah Jane, she’s born to be…oh wait.

Maybe the fact that Susan Kohner is mother of the American Pie brothers could be your way in.

Hyenas is fantastic. I will look for little girl..

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, February 16, 2023 8:11 PM (yesterday)

I haven't seen Hyenas but the protagonist of The Little Girl Who Sold the Sun is unforgettable.

Totoro had a lot of atmosphere and a relaxed pace, not something I expected from either an animated movie or a film for kids. It also avoided a lot of the beats I'd expect from a Western movie with this theme - the supernatural elements are subtly integrated, but there's never a moment where the grown-ups have to either disdain or embrace the mystical creatures that the kids accept so readily. Certainly I consider it better than some other films on this list.

postwar is a useful book. have not read that hobsbawm but his previous three "age of"s are fantastic. have long had the menand on my powell's wishlist but am not sure i want to keep having the 20c explained to me by new yorker writers; still, good fellows, on the whole. did their best, you know. oh, i was going to tell you! i was going to tell you about a friend of mine--

Still haven't seen Touki Bouki. I have no idea what might prevail in this poll but there are a lot of good choices. I'm kind of hoping Moonlight will win

xxp

American films for kids mostly set up an antagonistic relationship between kids and adults that centers on the parent's disbelief of the supernatural, whereas in Miyazaki's world, the parents are generally very supportive and understanding of their kids' flights of fancy. It feels much healthier thst way.

centers on the parent's disbelief of the supernatural

and sometimes the parent has the existence of the supernatural proved to them and realizes they were wrong to doubt their kids-- meanwhile the adults in totoro support and even feed the kids' imaginations ("you have to laugh loud to get rid of a spirit") but still don't expect to encounter magical creatures themselves, and they don't.

a lot of atmosphere and a relaxed pace

https://i.imgur.com/lbIxxT8.gif

stalker could use a catbus

I've seen Totoro so many times because it's one of my kids' favorite movies, and I never get tired of it. (For one of my kids' 13th birthday, we had a party at the local indie cinema and he picked Totoro to watch. Pretty cute, a gaggle of middle-school boys watching this gentle movie about two little girls.)

v cool birthday party good job to both of u! i prob watched totoro a hundred times between ages 9-15. have only seen it once or twice since but it always seems to accept new angles.

stalker could use a catbus

It would have made getting to the Room a lot more fun.

And actually, this talk about adults believing/accepting children's fantasy lives makes me think about the Stalker's long-suffering wife.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Went for Sansho..

Had to pick one so....

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

A parrot bit me

Fuck The Third Man but especially fuck Goodfellas

Thank god the Morbsies results were as good as they were

Those were good results, but The Third Man and Goodfellas both placed in the top 15 in that poll.

That surprised me at the time

Fuck The Third Man but especially fuck Goodfellas

― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.),

I have waaaay less trouble with The Third Man. The under-30's I know don't even watch B&W film.

...on my FB wall, that is.

what can i do, old man? i’m dead, aren’t i?

What exactly is the issue with Goodfellas? I can see wearing it out like I have, and I can see having a temperament far removed from it, but dismissing it like it's some kind of blight on film history, that I don't get at all. It's brilliant.

It’s fine, idk

Casino is much better

Lol this fucking messageboard

"What exactly is the issue with Goodfellas?"

iirc Eric H is allergic to bro-y films. A reason he won't watch Seven Samurai.

Like a lot of films in this list: it's fine, just not top 100.

I haven't seen Casino.

Fuck The Third Man but especially fuck Goodfellas

Two perfect movies.

my problem with Goodfellas is that at its heart there's an idea that deep in all men lurks this core of macho territorial violence, and this just doesn't ring true for me, my family, my friends. I mean I do know plenty of guys like this but I dislike them and will avoid spending time with them if possible.

my problem with Goodfellas is that at its heart there's an idea that deep in all men lurks this core of macho territorial violence

I don't know about that.

Hmm, you reckon? I think it makes the life of the gangster seem kinetic and exciting, but I think it's overstating it to suggest it's making any claim for universality, even a gendered one - Ray Liotta is drawn to the life because of a combination of his social situation and character, not because anyone would be, and the fact that his final punishment is ending as "just some shmuck", i.e. like most viewers, that contempt on his side increases the schadenfreude you get from his punishment. I like the film a lot - not enough to vote for it, I don't feel strongly enough about it on a personal level - but my enjoyment has never depended on wanting to BE like those guys, it's pretty clear to me they're shitty and unpleasant to be around...but also entertaining to watch.

xpost

If Scorsese films are "about" anything, it's how men of average or below average intelligence realize they're trapped in these systems of behavior (Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, The Age of Innocence).

Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ too.

to be clear I do like it as a film (but don't love it) and would say the same about most other gangster films, I don't find anything about gangsters compelling, they're just pricks.

Fair enough, that's how I feel about the spy films that don't portray their protagonists as totally irredeemable.

What CAAL said, basically. There’s nothing intriguing about them as portrayed in Goodfellas. Neither their rise to power nor their fall are worth my time.

And, sorry to be a scold, but I DO think a few of the movies in this vein cater to the worst mental impulses of their biggest fans. The world would be a lot better with fewer dorm room Goodfellas posters.

I’ll walk it back on The Third Man tho. It’s just in no way five votes better than La Jetee

I almost voted for one of those two but ended up going with Imitation of Life instead. I guess ILF is just born to be hurt.

I think that's undeniably true of "a few of the movies in this vein", but it's not really true of this one, and yeah sure it's been widely misinterpreted by idiots, but I'm done with "what will idiots think?" as a concern in art, it just leads to horribly literal minded explainer shit. Which is not to say those dorm room poster dudes aren't annoying, I've been lucky not to meet many and perhaps if I had the movie would be more tainted for me as well.

Anyway, thanks for walking that back on The Third Man, the UK's only made like 25 watchable films, all our real talent went into making marxist plays for TV instead, we need you guys to let us have this one.

To me, you're saying it comes from a place that's not your temperament. And that I get--I say the same thing of films all the time (most recently, Daisies). But there's still a lot there I don't understand. The vitriol. The dorm posters (who cares?). Seeing the film as failing some kind of moral rectitude test. I don't want to badger you, though. You don't like it.

Correction: I hate it so much I don’t care for people who love it

I'm sure I join a few people here in saying...noted.

Anyway, thanks for walking that back on The Third Man, the UK's only made like 25 watchable films

I'm sure I join a few people here in saying...noted.

― clemenza, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Just 6/60 or so people who voted. Not bad.

imo it’s Greatfellas!

_Anyway, thanks for walking that back on The Third Man, the UK's only made like 25 watchable films_

24 of which came from the Archers

Archers are probably generally vote split, god knows i change my mind which one is my fave all the time

The world would be a lot better with fewer dorm room Goodfellas posters.

what a sophomoric thing to say

Just 6/60 or so people who voted. Not bad.

This is a one-click poll. I love Goodfellas but voted for something else.

missed this round but it's the red shoes

I can't remember for sure but I think I'm the one vote for L'avventura

Sight and Sound 2022 Round 5: 81-100

what a sophomoric thing to say

― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Twitter has invented the film bro who is on a diet of Godfather and Goodfellas...that kind of stuff.

Having Jetee (an obviously superior film) getting one vote is rough. So indications are these ppl exist.

an obviously superior film

Whereby opinions become facts.

Not to mention that that's like comparing apples to chairs.

I'm sure those people do exist, but I think it's wrong to assume that's what happened in this poll, as opposed to Goodfellas just being a way more popular film than Jetee and ppl choosing it because it's a good film they've seen.

Which is to say, colour me skeptical that the six votes for Goodfellas came from a place of "fucking hate Jetee, why isn't The Dark Knight on this list".

After all that, I don't remember if I voted or what for? Did someone else vote for Voyage to Italy?

I'd love to know how much else from this poll have the guilty six watched.

Daniel_Rf is doing a better job than I am in explaining why this attempt to erase the stature of Goodfellas is bizarre.

I'd love to know how much else from this poll have the guilty six watched.

I too would like a full accounting from all six Goodfellas voters--dates, receipts, everything.

Besides--if Goodfellas voters are so monumentally stupid (or at least culturally ignorant), will it really matter if they take the time to watch all those films that are too subtle for them in the first place?

I'd love to know how much else from this poll have the guilty six watched.

All of them. I think I got 98 out of the top 100.

The 5 people who voted for Casablanca are kinda skating here, frankly.

Don't judge by film posters, people. The only poster I owned was of Chaplin in The Kid which I've never seen, and I don't much like the other Chaplin films I have seen.

Jail for Chris!! Jail for 1000 years!

twitter did not actually invent boondock saints mindset; i guess it just made it impossible to forget

anyway if i can accept goodfellas' tying the best movie ever others can accept its beating the powerpoint pitch for 12 monkeys

kidding.

If Chris Marker weren't such a Marxist he might have thought of licensing La Jetée posters for dorm rooms.

We had to watch La Jetée for a class in journalism school. No dorm posters ensued, alas.

As far back as I can remember I always wanted to make up a guy to get mad at

Besides--if Goodfellas voters are so monumentally stupid (or at least culturally ignorant), will it really matter if they take the time to watch all those films that are too subtle for them in the first place?

― clemenza, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

It's not about that. One of the interesting things about the results is how, once a lot of these films were made available at scale and ease of access, a lot of subtle shifts in ranking have now begun.

Just trying to follow your train of thought here. 1) Anyone who loves Goodfellas is a "film bro who is on a diet of Godfather and Goodfellas" and (re: "I'd love to know how much else from this poll have the guilty six watched") probably hasn't seen much else, but 2) If they could only see La Jetée, they'd magically stop loving Goodfellas and get in line with the times.

those statements are straightforwardly consistent

I have a large framed print of Chris Marker-designed travel mag coves in front of my face as I type this and I love Goodfellas. We exist.

I see this thread has entered Classic ILE Film Thread Zone.

Bye

(xposts) Gotta disagree there. I think they're both very rich films, entirely different, and pitting them against each other is a fabrication in service of a point.

Just trying to follow your train of thought here. 1) Anyone who loves Goodfellas is a "film bro who is on a diet of Godfather and Goodfellas" and (re: "I'd love to know how much else from this poll have the guilty six watched") probably hasn't seen much else, but 2) If they could only see La Jetée, they'd magically stop loving Goodfellas and get in line with the times.

― clemenza, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

The facts are pretty straightforward. Jeanne Dielman won this poll once this was made easily available. One of the Godfather films you love is outside the top 100.

The polls here only show ilx is lagging behind.

That is a wonderful simplification of a whole myriad of factors at work, including your continued fantasy that the second Godfather is no longer a revered film (as opposed to voters settling on the first as a way to, uh, game the vote). You're back in your "nah-nah, we won" voice.

Godfather 1 still made #12 though, miles ahead of La Jetee, so this idea that the canon will magically align with our personal tastes once everything becomes sufficiently available seems a bit naive to me

I just want to point out that Miyazaki got the most votes of any director on this round and I declare him to be the outright winner

From the 81-100 thread:

Xala ain't out on streaming or on blu, Black Girl has a nice release from the BFI here and Criterion in the states, it's all about availability.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

As more becomes available, and there's further discourse/work around these films the more they'll penetrate into the top 100 and the more the likes of Goodfellas will go down.

It's not "nah-nah we won". Nothing childish like that.

It's just a case these films were always better, but they were not seen.

xps

Ok but La Jetee has been widely available for donkey's years and both Goodfellas and Godfather beat it. Could as easily say that, as more becomes available, and there's further discourse/work around these films, the likes of La Jetee will leave the top100.

(xpost) You clearly believe that, so let's check back in 2032 and--if there's a poll, a world, etc.--see what's what.

It's not that the "canon will align". That will be boring. More that the canon will bring a bigger variety of films, more surprises. More games will be played. And some of the stuff that was there not bcz it was good but bcz ppl were not shown what was better. That will be more likely to go.

Overall a better situation

xp = it's a developing situation. Streaming could collapse and we might be back to boredom.

The world might go on...barbarism.

I saw La Jetee in the first month of film school in 1998, same film school had a majority of students who were obsessed with Coppola and Scorcese (and at a push Tarantino) and when told by the scriptwriting tutor "you can set your screenplay anywhere except America and it can be about anything apart from organised crime" let out an audible groan. You can't blame any art for the audience it attracts, but it can certainly put you off something.

The VHS Generation

I agree entirely that the canon becoming more varied is good, yes! What I don't believe is that the films that drop out of it will do so because of some weird platonic idea of Quality rather than just, y'know, becoming unfashionable for a variety of reasons. Some of the films that disappear from the list will be ones I consider great, some will be ones I'm happy to see go, some that come in I'll like, others I won't. I know that's more boring than a narrative where good will triumph over evil but hey.

Streaming collapsing would surely only be good for this? Piracy a billion times more responsible for the canon becoming wider than streaming imo.

xposts

(xposts) Guessing Christopher Moltisanti was in your class?

Streaming collapsing would surely only be good for this? Piracy a billion times more responsible for the canon becoming wider than streaming imo.

xposts

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Piracy is great. But I've heard a lot about this criterion channel.

Yes, you can't smugly crow that "the films are widely available now; they're simply better, etc." and then subsequently say that games are played to shake up the canon. Those aren't the same thing.

I mean film is going to die or become ossified if you don't open people's horizons to things beyond the American testosterone-heavy favorites, but Goodfellas is still obviously an artful film whether its characters or fans know it or not.

goodfellas is easily misread even tho it's explicitly the chronicle of a trio of mob losers (of varying degrees of loser-ness) who briefly have money and delusions of being big shots, despite forces both seen and unseen moving against them, as it suits their interests. it's kind of a scorsese thing with these films to focus on the guys who are fooling themselves and while he has a fascination w/the lifestyle that leads one into this type of gig, and what happens to them when they get there, to his credit he doesn't have many illusions about these guys being awesome.

p.s. dorm posters are a bad reason to dislike something, i don't even think they're a good signifier of quality of lack thereof! probably scorsese's most popular poster movie is taxi driver, which is a hazy slow-moving mostly action-free descent into madness, while its cultural iconography makes it look like falling down meets scarface.

i didn't vote for Goodfellas because i wanted to throw a vote to...The Third Man.

also can't wholly disagree with any challops rating casino above goodfellas, since i think casino has an awesome accumulated power the further it goes along, with its scope and maybe more honest brutality. as and scorsese himself goes along in his career he certainly makes the mob life look less and less appealing; i'd say the irishman probably truly gets at a certain view that this is a fully wasted way to live one's life, truly thankless and soul-emptying.

The biggest problem I have with Casino is that, for me, Pesci lapses into self-parody for about half the film.

I could really do without the multiple narrators, especially Pesci

The multiple narrators — and the relentless jukebox ost — are good not bad, the film never fucking shuts up in a way that feels v purposeful to me

It looks amazing too, if we’re considering them as a loose trilogy I’d say casino > Irishman > strawfellas (they are all excellent)

I prefer Casino too - merciless.

The Irishman is better than Goodfellas imo. When Scorsese goes on autopilot he's as bad as any bad director. But that definitely does not apply to Goodfellas. Yes the poll is a bit upside down, but it's still a very fine movie.

there's a meta thing at play in scorsese at his best that contains the thrilling notion that movies themselves are sinful

The multiple narrators — and the relentless jukebox ost — are good not bad, the film never fucking shuts up in a way that feels v purposeful to me

It looks amazing too, if we’re considering them as a loose trilogy I’d say casino > Irishman > strawfellas (they are all excellent)

― piedro àlamodevar (wins), Wednesday, March 1, 2023 11:59 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah I like the narrators (Frank Vincent even gets in a bit!), I think it really is sort of a meta thing to an extent and also just a bit of trickery too, for the final bit when the narrator gets…interrupted…mid narration. Pesci is more than fine here I think too, def a different take on his loose cannon persona, sort of more strategically brutal vs unhinged. Probably the pen scene is a bit OTT but I appreciate its bloodiness.

And yes can’t underrate how amazing casino looks, it’s f’in gorgeous throughout.

I have a friend who I watched movies with in the past who just reveled in, and I think sincerely admired, the macho evil of the characters in gangster films. It made me repulsed by that kind of glorification of male aggression, and I couldn't see those films the same way again.

I’m not saying Goodfellas is bad since I haven’t seen in in 30+ years, but take for example The Wolf of Wall Street … that whole film seemed intent on making you identify and sympathize with a despicable evil person and his soulless coterie of rapiers, even through his downfall

i really disagree with that reading of wolf of wall street but its reception on this board confounded me generally

it's just so lauditory and self-congratulatory about fucking other people over financially for your own gain, it really celebrates that, and nothing that happens in the film negates that

maybe Scorsese intended something else, but it didn't come through

No one needs to defend Wolf of Wall Street in court. It’s very obvious what the movie thinks about these people and we’ve got 40 years of the director’s other films to back it up.

https://deadline.com/2014/01/martin-scorsese-on-wolf-of-wall-street-a-happy-moral-ending-to-scandalous-stockbroker-expose-would-have-turned-it-into-a-tv-movie-659127/amp/

It’s a movie that says most people are dumb in different ways and intelligence is figuring out ways to corral the greatest number of people in one spot to take financial advantage of them

God sometimes I feel like Scorsese makes things like Silence as a form of self-flagellation

He talks about WOWS in similar ways he talked about Vegas in casino-era interviews, and he’s always had an interest in the way in which criminals are parasites generating money thru fear, intimidation, cons, skims, etc. just bc they’re having a good time doesn’t mean it’s a celebration I mean ultimately despite being a fairly genial dude I suspect Scorsese has a lot of fury at people like these.

Wolf of Wall Street to me bears about the same relationship to Goodfellas as some terrible '80s Neil Young album does to After the Gold Rush. Artists do get worse, even if some of their preoccupations stay the same.

It’s a movie that says most people are honest and trusting in different ways and evil or psychopathic criminality is figuring out ways to corral the greatest number of people in one spot to take financial advantage of them!

Honestly I dealt with con artists targeting my late father in law, I’d be over at his place screening calls during the pandemic and he was a very good dude, very honest, 90 yrs old though and the people coming at him were these 20 to 30 somethings just savagely berating him into paying up. It was relentless. His number must’ve been out there. He never paid up, which was lucky.

That’s a different thing I guess, but their methods were similar, though a lot of it was just fake bullshit owed debt stuff, send us five grand and you’re in the clear etc.

without even thinking about the apparent moral ambivalence of WoWW I just thought it was a very LOUD and extremely annoying terrible movie

I've had no interest in watching Wolf of Wall Street but to call it as a valentine to Patrick Bateman types is absurd. Scorsese films a sequence where DiCaprio is so fucked up he has to drag his body; I'm fairly certain the audience laughing hysterically was not thinking, "Shit! I was that fucked up too!"

Yes, I have no doubt Scorsese has nothing but contempt for the characters in that film. But as with his mobster movies he needs to make it look at least a little dazzling to explain the appeal, and while I can deal with that in a movie about gangsters, when it comes to moral decrepitude people in the finance sector is where I draw the line. Also calz OTM that it's not a good film regardless of these issues - the CGI ocean, the shitty needledrops. The scene of DiCaprio trying to make it to his door while fucked up on drugs has a certain Looney Tunes energy to it tho.

I would say one aspect of both Goodfellas and Wolf Of Wall Street that IS morally questionable though is the fact that both of them were done with the collaboration of the real life monsters they're based on, who have been dining out on them ever since.

But as with his mobster movies he needs to make it look at least a little dazzling to explain the appeal, and while I can deal with that in a movie about gangsters, when it comes to moral decrepitude people in the finance sector is where I draw the line.

why?

Gangsters tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds (much of the mobster movie canon still set in an era where Italian wasn't fully counted as "white") and there's an underdog appeal to these fuckers using violence to succeed in a system that despises them, which I hasten to add doesn't mean I think their actions are defensible. White collar finance dudes don't tend to come from a place of poverty in the first place and at the same time are much less shunned by polite society, DiCaprio in Wolf is a "rebel" in the same way Boris Johnson and his Bullingdon buddies were rebels for trashing restaurants, it's impossible for me to feel any sense of the evil seductiveness of it because the stakes are very different.

I'm not expressing this opining in a prescriptivist manner, like.

The guys DiCaprio hires as he's making his climb are not white collar, they're a bunch of schlubs and misfits who come from outside of Wall Street.

Belfort's a college graduate and the son of accountants.

Yes, and after his career flames out he teaches a bunch of scrubs how to game the system and they love him for it.

WoWS might be the definitive movie of the Trump era so far (coming 2 years ahead of the curve), an era where many entertainers and artists failed to meet the moment. It takes a long look at the people who cultivate great wealth and decadence but still consider themselves outsiders, but also at the level of sycophancy that attaches to men like Elon Musk or Andrew Tate.

The movie is not about those scrubs though, we barely get a look into their lives. It is all about Belfort and frankly, as portrayed in the film, his psychology is just bog standard finance bro shit, I don't think he's anywhere as eccentric as Trump.

He's like Trump in that people feel liberated by his total lack of restraint. He's doing wrestling promos in front of the whole company, at totally unreasonable moments.

Top 250 update: Histoire(s) du cinéma (Godard, 1988) has changed position from =84th to =78th. This is due to an incorrectly assigned vote being corrected

— Sight and Sound magazine (@SightSoundmag) March 2, 2023

o_0

No doubt we'll see a few more of these along the way

It took them so long to publish the results and they still managed to screw it up

BTW, that tweet thread includes links to everyone's ballots

guessing someone spelled the name slightly differently and they didn't pick it up, Morbsies was much better-organised.

Way to go, Sofia Coppola: The Heartbreak Kid and Lost in America.

Looked at Martin McDonagh's list and this was his only comment (they defaulted to G1)

"Godfather 1&2 if possible as one choice. If not, just Godfather 1."

Must have been a misprint; everyone hates GFII now.

clemenza...we're all a part of the same hypocrisy. Never think it applies to ILE.

Just wanted to say that if we still posted stuff to Excelsior threads I'd def post this:

As far back as I can remember I always wanted to make up a guy to get mad at

― piedro àlamodevar (wins), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 16:08 (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes, you can't smugly crow that "the films are widely available now; they're simply better, etc." and then subsequently say that games are played to shake up the canon. Those aren't the same thing.

― Chris L, Wednesday, 1 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

They...are? An old film like Jeanne Dielman would've been a fairly small release in '75. But it was vastly superior to the gangster/banker boy films you are all talking about all along, as the results of the '22 ballot show.

I live in a major metropolitan city and only got to see Jeanne Dielman in a fuzzy old print once, so there's no way it could've been voted on unless you really went to look for this. And even then!

As critics get to see a bigger range, and as these come from a variety of backgrounds it pretty much means the shaking up of the canon (via gamefication or otherwise) will go on.

xyzz, it is so weird that you take critical consensus as some sort of objective measure of quality like you've never been on ILX or something.

like imagine arguing that a writer is clearly superior because they've won a Nobel or an album is clearly great because it topped the Village Voice poll that year. that's what you sound like.

The issue ILM had with the music canon came from this being selected by rockist boomers. It often neglected music outside a narrow range.

S&S are beginning to address this by widening the number and range of voters. And again the range of things that people are able to vote on has increased. This is a very different situation.

As I've mentioned before this widened range didn't prevent The Godfather from getting to #12. So if you want to say that the results "prove" Dielmann is better than The Godfather you also have to accept they prove The Godfather is better than La Jetée. You can't have it both ways.

I am not saying this is perfect and the canon will never align (nor would I want it to) but there is enough here to suggest the effects of both more ballots and availability.

Yes but you keep using that general point, which I totally agree with, to argue these "this proves BY SCIENCE that film x is superior to film y" points about specific films and it just doesn't work like that.

Just wanted to say that if we still posted stuff to Excelsior threads I'd def post this:

As far back as I can remember I always wanted to make up a guy to get mad at

― piedro àlamodevar (wins), Wednesday, 1 March 2023 16:08 (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

to argue these "this proves BY SCIENCE that film x is superior to film y" points about specific films and it just doesn't work like that.

― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 3 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

I am mostly trolling Clemenza, who is clearly uncomfortable by the way things are going.

I'm just fine with "the way things are going," because though I'm immensely interested in this poll, I don't attach a bit of meaning to the results, other than being the transient snapshot Daniel_Rf has described them as. Which is why statements like

But it was vastly superior to the gangster/banker boy films you are all talking about all along, as the results of the '22 ballot show

are so laughable. Because I think you really do believe that.

The Bank Dick 4ever.

Here's a Jeanne Dielman joke, you can objectively determine if it has merit.

People can't believe a 24-year-old director could make a rigorous masterpiece like Jeanne Dielman, but it also makes sense a 24-year-old would make a movie about how cooking and cleaning an apartment could drive you to kill someone.

Weirdly, I associate it with the fact that 2/3 of Tangerine Dream were teenagers when they made their largo in four movements, Zeit. Something about youthful focus. Don't know what Franke and Baumann thought of housework.

Akerman's teenage short film Saute Ma Ville takes place mostly in a kitchen, it's sort of the rebellious flipside of Jeanne Dielman's repression.

are so laughable. Because I think you really do believe that.

― clemenza, Friday, 3 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

I do, no joke.