Sight and Sound 2022: The Final Showdown

wrong Tarkovsky, at least half a dozen "fuck off" choices, gonna vote Dragon Inn with very little doubt

I voted for Zama because why not

xp Oh c'mon, I only count three, maybe four "fuck off" choices here

yeah tbf that was rhetorical exuberance

Damn, I love all these except for Annie Hall (baggage) and Zama (good, way too soon to call it an all-timer).

Annie Hall in the poll shows how there is no cancellation, never mind justice, in this world.

I'd have a lot more to say were it Manhattan given the free pass here (MD'A had it on his ballot because, gross)

The Spirit of the Beehive, why not

once again, crash

Spirited Away (hope this isn't a fuck off choice)

Nope, Goodfellas is

Annie Hall in the poll shows how there is no cancellation, never mind justice, in this world.

lol I think his new one playing Venice Film Festival makes a stronger case for this than the results of an ilx poll tbh

Think I'll vote Playtime

Spirited Away and Zama were my two other "for consideration"s tbh

also my initial "fuck off" is less about any of these being worthless and much more about the dullness of their admitted quality or in the case of Woody Allen fuck acknowledging Woody Allen

Roman Polanski's latest supposedly tenfold worse than the new Woody

if i had to do a taking sides, filmwise Polanski is higher highs and much lower lows than Allen

if i had to click a button to acknowledge my admiration for either of them in 2023 i think i'd just not click the button

Stalker over Zama, glad Crash is getting some votes. Haven't seen Goodbye Dragon Inn.

I'm voting for "best film in this poll", not "best film of all time", though Tarkovsky is a favourite.

You all know my opinion: “best film in this poll” and “best of all time” = 2001

I’m watching Goodbye, Dragon Inn on Netflix DVD tomorrow night for the second time, to say goodbye to that service, which is folding at the end of this month. It will not be otherwise available to me on streaming

I’m still wondering why Stalker was such a dysphoric film for me. I will watch it again, but am reluctant

Lastly, I don’t think it is too soon to call Zama an all-timer

Crash, Goodfellas, The Third Man and Annie Hall would be my "fuck offs" and Pickpocket is far from my favourite Bresson. Love everything else

The Third Man was my vote! Can't beat good old Brit misanthropy.
One of these years I'll see Goodfellas, hasn't happened yet.

I’m watching Goodbye, Dragon Inn on Netflix DVD tomorrow night for the second time, to say goodbye to that service, which is folding at the end of this month. It will not be otherwise available to me on streaming

Was gonna say it sort of doesn't work as well unless you're watching it in a mostly empty theater that's about to close, but I guess you found a reasonable analogue

"lol I think his new one playing Venice Film Festival makes a stronger case for this than the results of an ilx poll tbh"

Makes it even worse that he's alive and getting work out there. Given the amount we've poured over in regards to #metoo, the talk about toxic masculinity and the Roisin thread currently live on ilm...people here couldn't even restrain themselves a bit for a little poll.

Haven't seen: Pickpocket, Crash (I've read the book), Goodbye Dragon Inn (love the King Hu), Zama

Fuck off: Goodfellas (undeniably entertaining on first watch but not remotely deserving its cultural ubiquity), Annie Hall (Keaton is cool, but I didn't partic like this even when I cared about Allen)

The rest are all great, though I confess to being mostly perplexed by Beehive the one time I caught it. Going with Playtime as I prefer other P&P and Miyazaki films

NV's #1 and top 3 are mine as well. Crash is the only one of these I actively dislike. (Caveat: Saw it once when it came out and haven't revisited, it's possible it would strike me differently.)

I now just feel sorry for the people here who have talked themselves into thinking there’s anything wrong with Goodfellas.

These polls get to be more fun all the time. I'm a cop because I voted for some dumb Oasis song over some wretched Steve Winwood song. I'm the "there will always be one" guy because I voted for There Will Be Blood (even though it turns out I'm not--the one, that is). I almost want to vote for Goodfellas here so I can be told to fuck off, and there was I time I would have, but I'll go with Double Indemnity and look forward to finding out what grievous sin that entails.

none of the "fuck offs" were directed at posters

xp it is a shame, the way you are being silenced

ineffectively, that is

I don't know--was that implication in my post, that I was being silenced? I'm rereading it...I don't think so.

To the delight of many, I'm close to impossible to silence.

Am I right in my impression that it seems to be more acceptable on modern-day ILX to cast aspersions on another poster's film tastes than on their music tastes? Or is that just a function of who in each group is expressing their tastes and who is critiquing them?

I have done both! Just don't post on ILM as much now.

I would never call you a cop, clemenza

To paraphrase Rupert Pupkin, better a hopelessly middlebrow, '70s-centric Paulette for a day than a cop for a lifetime.

Am I right in my impression that it seems to be more acceptable on modern-day ILX to cast aspersions on another poster's film tastes than on their music tastes? Or is that just a function of who in each group is expressing their tastes and who is critiquing them?

― Halfway there but for you,

Yes tot he first question. I was going to post ask why we're more critical about film tastes.

Only one way to find out, everyone start a thread about their 50 favourite films

Music is more abstract a form than film, thus there’s more room to allow people their subjective tastes

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl)
Posted: 9 September 2023 at 04:18:56
anyone who voted for oasis is a cop

That’s a post about music tbf & you’ll encounter posts like it in countless ilm polls (it’s also obviously jocular and fine and not worth commenting on unless you’re weirdly addicted to making a big deal of your embattled position in polls that don’t matter)

Basically yeah. I try to generally never denigrate others’ musical preferences … they’re so much more tied in with the subconscious imo. Taste in movies, tho, is far more fair game

Also my taste in ILM terms is pretty clearly bad

It won't play.

How does Clemenza keep finding himself on the wrong side of history all the time?

Guy has a real knack for it.

Because history is right now, this moment--there's never a longer view.

And a message board is the world out there.

xyzzzz's question comes off better if imagined as two acquaintances debating shit over pints.

Pretty sure Goodfellas would show up in any aggregated list, so, as Gang of Four said, history is bunk (I don't care either way).

I try to generally never denigrate others’ musical preferences … they’re so much more tied in with the subconscious imo. Taste in movies, tho, is far more fair game

― fair but so uncool beliefs here (Eric H.), Saturday, September 9, 2023

I wonder if that's true, about taste in movies. Music isn't very often more abstract than film, so I'm not sure how it is seen as more universal, with everybody having equally great taste regarding it

My interest in films doesn't align with anybody I know personally, not family, friends, or acquaintances, only with the few of you who post about films here, and sometimes I'm not even sure about your tastes tbh. But that also is how I feel about my interest in music

The meta explanation I'd bring to the table is that most regulars here have had 10+ years of being mean about music on ILM and at some point it gets to diminishing returns.

dreadful thread so far ofc

third man

Because history is right now, this moment--there's never a longer view.

― clemenza, Saturday, 9 September 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Right. You are seeing the long view work now, where the films you love aren't the canon.

And you don't like it.

Dude, stop. Who cares?

Clemenza should stop feeling attacked when nobody is directly going off at him. That's tedious.

Says the poster who is the definition of tedium.

*Waits for the ever-reliable killer Youtube zinger*

But he's great company when he drinks!

Okay, I'll stop now

I give it until the rains break

For me this a three way tie for first between the obvious, boring picks of BLACK NARCISSUS, THE THIRD MAN and THE SPIRIT OF THE BEEHIVE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhqSTcgE3aU

Never knew about this BBC miniseries of BLACK NARCISSUS until just now.

Did know that Black Narcissus was a real perfume, the scent of choice of Jimmie Rodgers, the Singing Brakeman, to cover up the bodily and medicinal odors associated with his tubercular condition.

is that certain or TBC

*Waits for the ever-reliable killer Youtube zinger*

― The Thin, Wild Mercury Rising (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 10 September 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Good to see you knew what was coming. You are gaining intelligence. Hope that didn't hurt.

Tell us if it's hurting, we'll replace with a YouTube AI generator. Pack you off to a quiet life.

ILX Film Threads: The Final Showdown

I may not be directly going for clemenza these days, but I for sure am going after his canon, so it's probably a gray area

I was going to post ask why we're more critical about film tastes.

Maybe for the same reason that Metacritic scores can tend to be much lower for movies than for records - the notion that a film is nominally meant "for everybody", so anyone can take a shot at it, while most music is only going to reach fans of the artist or genre.

Also film and other dramatic arts have so many "practical" elements that anyone can examine and debate, while fewer people want to argue about how exactly a song should have been written or produced.

most regulars here have had 10+ years of being mean about music on ILM and at some point it gets to diminishing returns.

We've also seen all these poorly-aged twenty-year-old threads whose first post is: "Isn't (revered musical genius) just a twat?"

you're kind of all over the place there between "nominally meant for" vs "going to reach"- these are not opposites

likewise "anyone can examine and debate" vs "fewer people want to"

im not seeing any less accessibility or immediacy for music than movies in the ways being argued and indeed am surprised to even see the argument being made given how utterly subjective any such statement would necessarily be

If you want me to connect the dots, the people who (assume they) would have hated a record don't even listen to it. It seems to me that the idea of a "hate-watch" is more prevalent than a "hate-listen" (though ILM would be the place it would most likely happen).

i hear you

but im not convinced people hate watch entire movies

i guess the big difference i might see is you are a lot less likely to walk out of a movie regardless of how bad once you are in, you're gonna skip a song or quit an album for a lot less reason

and if you are committed to reviewing a movie/album you are really gonna resent sitting through a former perhaps if you decide its not for you?

taking that aside i think i still disagree strongly that movies are any more made "for everyone" than music tho

im not convinced people hate watch entire movies

Only come Oscar season

It wouldn't surprise if, say, Tsai Ming-liang thinks he makes films for everyone.

im not convinced people hate watch entire movies

Only come Oscar season

Or if you're on a long-haul flight! Which is how I saw Woody Allen's Scoop, possibly the worst film I ever got to the end of.

I've hate-watched the last couple of Wes Anderson films.

fire him out of yr canon

Probably gonna vote for Black Narcissus, but obv love The Third Man and Goodfellas and they're contenders, with apologies to Goodbye Dragon Inn, Double Indemnity, 2001, and Spirited Away. Love em all. But the first three were altering experiences.

I think historically the most last film I truly hate-watched until the end was Inception, and that was only because my best friend was sitting with me in the audience and he seemed interested in the film.

I didn’t afford that courtesy to the friends I want to see The Dark Knight with however, I walked out and sat at the curb waiting for them to finish the film, figuring they could keep each other company through the overwrought storyline and painfully dominating score

not that anyone cares but jfr I'd like to withdraw my "fuck off" for The Third Man, just looked at my letterboxd and I've got it logged at 4.5, I must've been mixing it up with something else, no idea what. i stand by the others tho

I saw Goodfellas again tonight, as I have been going through Scorsese’s films in order. It was such a clash with his previous film, The Last Temptation of Christ

I can understand the achievement - but it really was a hate-watch for me

Perhaps confused with The 4th Man?

I can understand the achievement - but it really was a hate-watch for me

― Dan S

What made it hateful?

I guess the glorification of toxic masculinity? and the fetishization of violence

I saw no glorification of....anything? Except the American justice system? They all die or go to prison. Besides, every reaction shot of the wives, girlfriends, and Hill himself allows us to see the cost of the violence. I think of that reaction shot of Paulie's wife as he's being led away, for example.

I don't know, it's the same reaction I had to The Wolf of Wall Street

The fight between Lorraine Bracco and Ray Liotta when he was in prison, with their toddlers crying while witnessing it, that was awful. Just extreme uncaring adult vanity. And the other characters are so much worse

I know the film is ostensibly punishing these people, but not really to me, it is showing these awful men in a very alluring light

i think its explicitly mocking about finding men like this alluring

bracco's delivery of "a very attractive man" does not imo beg the viewer to agree nor to even pass by noting the statement, we are 100% being invited to consider and judge her for this (and frankly imo question its sincerity and/or plausibility) as well as him for who he is

it is showing these awful men in a very alluring light

The fight between Lorraine Bracco and Ray Liotta when he was in prison, with their toddlers crying while witnessing it, that was awful. Just extreme uncaring adult vanity. And the other characters are so much worse

Correct -- the film indicts them all. It doesn't glorify them."

it is showing these awful men in a very alluring light

No, it's not! One of my favorite cutaways in the last third is to Paulie grilling a sausage. That's what his life has become: a mob boss in his bathrobe whose most trusted boy he knows will sell him out, and the only thing he can control is that goddamn sausage.

You're really getting this wrong imo.

I guess maybe you're right.

I just can't separate myself from Ray Liotta's voice-over, and as the narrator it seems like the film is wanting you to empathize with him

That's the ambiguity of the film.

I'm not voting for it ftr

Perhaps confused with The 4th Man?

― Halfway there but for you, Sunday, September 10, 2023 6:50 PM (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

if the 4th man (which i would call a top five verhoeven picture) were on this list it’d be a way more interesting and perverted and bisexual list (crash will once again do in a pinch)

yes the absence of queerness here is, I guess, no surprise

i mean the third man is gay too, tbf

fwiw while I agree with everything Alfred and darra say I also think Goodfellas *does* portray the mobster life as attractive at times, especially early on - you know, the "Rags To Riches" drop and all that. But that is necessary, otherwise it'd just be "horrible ppl do horrible things for no discernible reason", which tbf is the plot of many films but not the kind of thing an old Catholic like Scorsese is interested in. Evil must be alluring, but it must also lead to ruin.

I have no moral issue with any of this, kinda have one with Henry Hill and the fed's commentary track tho (if we're viewing that as part of the Work).

xposts

ofc annie hall is here embodying eternities of straight repression

xp

I also think Goodfellas *does* portray the mobster life as attractive at times, especially early on - you know, the "Rags To Riches" drop and all that. But that is necessary, otherwise it'd just be "horrible ppl do horrible things for no discernible reason", which tbf is the plot of many films but not the kind of thing an old Catholic like Scorsese is interested in. Evil must be alluring, but it must also lead to ruin.

― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, September 10, 2023

but that ruin, with Scorsese's magic, is also portrayed as alluring and attractive, which is my problem with it

Crash was really good, and that last scene by the side of the road after the accident was all-time great

it is the closest a movie has gotten to a poem for me

and yet it is so perverted and disgusting. god

but that ruin, with Scorsese's magic, is also portrayed as alluring and attractive, which is my problem with it

It's dialectical!

but that ruin, with Scorsese's magic, is also portrayed as alluring and attractive, which is my problem with it

Is it? As Alfred says, he ends as some shmuck in witness protection, trapped in the suburban hell he spe t his life trying to escape. It's hardly a Cagney/Scarface glorious death in battle ending.

scorsese is seduced by violence and violent men, he lingers and stylizes and all that, but hes not a mindless moth to the flame of the character imo

I suppose one could say The Age of Innocence fetishizes thwarted longing, but that's not what happens.

Is it? As Alfred says, he ends as some shmuck in witness protection, trapped in the suburban hell he spe t his life trying to escape. It's hardly a Cagney/Scarface glorious death in battle ending.

If Goodfellas taught me anything, it's that a man in a bathrobe is a defeated man.

it's probably arguably true that Casino does a better job of making an even grander and more moneyed world look even more unappealing and hellish, but i think Goodfellas is excellent at showing how shortsighted and stupid these dudes are, living night by night and never thinking more than a couple of steps ahead, to the point that they're incapable of sighting the death coming for them, unless they're fortunate enough to be the last one alive and they finally figure it out. Henry Hill was a dead man walking the instant Jimmy boxed him out of the inner circle w/r/t Morrie, for example. He's living on borrowed time and doesn't know it. i think this film is def in the vein of The Public Enemy or other films, really violent and frequently funny movies which are also more obviously moralistic (and Goodfellas is, just not obviously so.)

as soon as everyone starts wearing bathrobes in Goodfellas, it's over!

Jimmy trying to fit the silencers on the guns: bathrobe city over there

would argue those 30's movies aren't moralistic at all! or well, they have moralistic endings appended to them to placate moralists but with your usual WB joint there's never any doubt that James Cagney or Edward G Robinson are really cool, morally righteous dudes getting theirs

I never hear anyone complain about this but then those movies also don't show up on lists much

I agree

Goodfellas. Basic problem here is, all the imagery that mirrors the viewer's wish-fulfillment fantasies of glamor, wealth and power are far stronger and more memorable than the eventual images of their loss. The unintended takeaway is that most of the audience has never had any glamor, wealth or power at any point in their lives, so those high-flying gangster lives are still powerful images for the audience's envy.

hmm idk, The Public Enemy has the character of Tom's brother Mike, scolding him for a life of crime throughout. I'd say this is NOT a detriment to the story though, those scenes are pretty great. in Goodfellas it's more about who we see on the sidelines and in the background, watching. Scorsese does this in The Irishman too, with Anna Paquin, more obviously but really effectively i think.

Aimless, you said it exactly

Just as grim are the sequences where schmuck fry sausages and collect the morning paper in bathrobes.

What Aimless describes is truer about Warner Bros gangter flicks.

i think what Scorsese does do that the WB films don't is make the downfall not precipitous but gradual, they still think they're living the high life but all around them are the signs that will lead to their doom, but they're too self-absorbed to notice them. Too dumb to make the types of decisions that would right the ship. and thank god for the story imo, they're completely lacking in self-reflection.

Let's change the subject. Can we discuss Goodbye, Dragon Inn or Pickpocket?

Goodbye Dragon Inn is such a mesmerizing film.

I'm sort of afraid to rewatch Goodbye, Dragon Inn because I loved it so much the first time I saw it and I've kind of mythologized it in my mind. But I expect it will hold up to repeat viewing. There's a ghostliness about it.

Goodfellas is supposedly one of the more simplistic movies here yet people continue to not get what the director is doing.

Crash was really good, and that last scene by the side of the road after the accident was all-time great

No matter how alluring Cronenberg makes it look, I implore no-one to seek erotic vehicular death heading southbound on Bayview Ave.

but that ruin, with Scorsese's magic, is also portrayed as alluring and attractive, which is my problem with it

I see this, a little; somebody may be hanging on a meathook, but Derek and the Dominoes make it seem a little grand.

Casino does a better job of making an even grander and more moneyed world look even more unappealing and hellish

I prefer Casino to Goodfellas because it lowers the temperature.

Can we discuss Goodbye, Dragon Inn

One reason I haven't seen this is because I was eagerly following Tsai's films in the 90s, where he seemed to be raising the stakes with each film, until he ended up at the end of the world with The Hole. Then came What Time Is It There? which struck me as so trivial in comparison, I lost interest for a long time.

Goodfellas sucks and is maybe the worst movie ever made

Happy treat some see nuance in it but I think it’s the apotheosis of what makes men awful, and not in a constructive way

Goodfellas is told from Henry's, and occasionally Karen's, perspective, and it wouldn't make sense if a life of crime wasn't portrayed as alluring and something they want to be part of. For a dumb kid with no money or imagination whose dad beats his ass, he's naturally going to want what he sees from his window, which is a bunch of guys who nobody fucks with doing what they want. That's all any of the crew want: what's immediate and flashy and tacky. Their problem is their worldview never expands, and they all run up against the limits of what a life of smash-and-grab can bring you. This is a very common theme in crime movies but it's a testament to Scorsese's genius that it's only with his movies where people do this annoying hand-wringing like they're going to get in trouble for watching them.

The other side to that is that these men are a tiny subset of society who embody the whole suite of toxic masculine traits, and are vastly over-represented in movies. Showing them from early on in their careers does give us an overview of how these traits start out - the aggression, combative banter, one-upmanship, sexism, etc. - and how they develop over time, but that starting point isn't an everyman thing, maybe it's mainstream male culture, but I just don't identify with that at all, I don’t find any of them charming or even interesting, except Joe Pesci maybe in that he's an out-and-out villain who gets his comeuppance. For the rest of them, it's just that I'm spending a couple of hours with people I wouldn't want to spend any time with in real life, and their downfalls just don't hold any emotional weight for me.

most things that appear frequently in movies are vastly overrepresented in movies

And that's bad

its fine

it's no crime, it's just boring

The argument that they’re not relatable sounds like a studio boss giving notes to me. The most interesting movies are very often ones that document some particular subculture or niche aspect of life in depth. As to why that has to be criminals so often, well, this same director has made impassioned movies about Tibetan monks and Jesuit priests and look how those fared with the public. Gangsters are over-represented for the same reason cowboys and vampires have been: it’s a popular genre. It matters how the filmmaker contextualizes and/or subverts the material with their own personal expression.

And besides, there’s a reason Goodfellas is one of the most quoted movies of the last half-century or so: it IS funny as hell while also being clear-eyed about who we’re watching. The movie’s most famous scene is about this dichotomy.

I hate to use the word "relatable" but when I find every character in a film to be an irredeemable asshole then I just find it harder to appreciate.

These movies are not for everyone but irredeemable people can still be entertaining and even capable of insight. This is just an uncomfortable truth and can be the subject of great art.

Cowboys represent the exploration of a new space, the building of a new society, I can get that, as problematic as it obviously is. Vampires are all about sex, youth and conquering death, I can get that too. But what are gangsters about?

Should say here, I don't hate Goodfellas, the "funny like a clown" scene is a highlight, sure, but great art?

I would say cowboys and vampires can also be about more than that and gangsters are no different. Crime movies and shows quite famously mirror power structures in more so-called legitimate industries or aspects of society. The best ones are honest about vice and the temptation of taking a shortcut to get ahead when it feels like you have few options. And Italian-Americans are not the only cinematic subjects of this treatment.

I would say to deny Goodfellas is art is pure elitism and, in a few people, resentment that some Catholic who’s not an intellectual per se could come up with something so good. It’s been so widely imitated (with diminishing results) because it’s such a deliriously effective work by craftspeople who know cinema inside and out.

It is pretty funny that the anti-Goodfellas feeling here has lead to it being the only movie anyone talks about for the second time in a row.

How do we feel about Double Indemnity? Prettt irredeemable protagonists iirc.

Harry Lime also pretty charming.

couldn't accuse holly of it tho

in order to ensure the moral safety of the audience double indemnity carefully inoculates its protagonist against seeming glamorous or attractive by casting fred macmurray

it's no crime, it's just boring

― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 11 September 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Leave crime to toxic bros

be gay do crimes iirc

You got me

what fools we are, talking this way. as if i'd do anything to you: or you to me!

The discussion is basically "there is no anti-war film" again - I'd agree that Goodfellas is short for the Copa far more than Paulie in a bathrobe (though bathrobes are of course great)

in order to ensure the moral safety of the audience double indemnity carefully inoculates its protagonist against seeming glamorous or attractive by casting fred macmurray

― difficult listening hour, Monday, 11 September 2023 08:53 (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

agree with this, i found it a major problem. he has a head like a fridge.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uBI_C4PMrtw/U_kAdyVzQ5I/AAAAAAAAuJ0/Vs38Q9sCITE/s1600/Comb17082014071057.jpg

ILX polls have their five-year plan, and so have I!

It is pretty funny that the anti-Goodfellas feeling here has lead to it being the only movie anyone talks about for the second time in a row

I'm fully aware of my role in sealing Goodfellas' inevitable win here

Tell us if it's hurting, we'll replace with a YouTube AI generator. Pack you off to a quiet life.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 10 September 2023 16:28 (yesterday) link

But what are gangsters about?

power, money, institutions, the state and its shadow, civilization iirc

good clothes and bad nightclub acts

Yeah, no more bathrobe slander

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/studio-ghibli/images/f/f0/Ushioni.png

https://i.imgur.com/8rROrY0.gif

It only requires chipcore-level computing strength to predict your BS, to model your "intelligence."
― The Thin, Wild Mercury Rising (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 11 September 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Stop trying to form thoughts, that will give you migraine. Where are the YTs? Flood this thread up so we can stop this Goodfellas discourse.

How's about we all make a pledge to always allow xyzzzz to have the last word in any exchange? If he's awake, he's going to insist on having it anyway and it's quicker just to concede it ahead of time.

fellas

Aimless otm

At least NRK had the decency to leave us and write some proper articles and publish a book or two, this parasite just sticks around like a tapeworm.

'Aimless otm' lol. Brain rot is set deep already. Too late.

Yours in permanently pickled, so now you’re some kind of evil genius brain is a vat. The Philosopher’s Song to thread!

(YouTube link provided upon request)

I requested many YTs many times already. Are you slow?

Anyway, I am in awe of your formidable stamina. Your'e like that one old sot who survived The Andromeda Strain.

Chat GPT, save us!

YouTube!

ChatGPT!

Rinse and repeat!

Fancy a pint?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQaLmme-eg

voting playtime with a side of killfiles

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XmhEpIHpL.jpg

the Joe Pesci version of the character in Goodfellas is a heavily sanitised (and shortened version). The real one was a 6"2 musclebound psycho who once shot a random stranger just to test his new gun out. Joe Pesci irl would get bullied by children on the average UK council estate.

Vector Erice

The most likeable characters and best real-life role-models in any of the films listed above are the little girls in Beehive, Stalker and Spirited Away.

I rewatched Goodbye, Dragon Inn, and it was as mesmerizing, perverse, content-free and inscrutable as I had remembered it being

At the beginning of the film we're peeking from behind the curtain and there are a large number of people in the seats. Maybe it is an earlier showing? But shortly after that, without any break, it appears mostly empty. That is not explained at all

The dialogue in the movie that is showing in the theater, Dragon Inn, is oblique, but often seems to be speaking to the audience who are experiencing it as a farewell.

There are people eating a variety of concessions with loud smacking of lips, and a person putting his bare feet up over the seat next to one of the patrons.

The scene where the main protagonist, the ticket woman with the limp (Shiang-chyi Chen, who was also in Stray Dogs) slices the peach bun and then looks at it motionless for an eternity before taking it up to the projectionist (who is ignoring her) is so subtle and great, as is the scene where she looks from behind the curtain and is enchanted by the larger-than-life warrior princess on the screen.

The young man going from seat to seat who is trying to make connections with other men in the theater feels like the other protagonist. He is alternately repulsed by the other men and completely thwarted by them

The constant rain, ceiling leaks with buckets placed out, endless dingy hallways and unused rooms, and large lavatory all add to the ghostliness

There seems to be a repeated thing in the movie where men congregate together, either sitting next to each other in a mostly empty theater and ignoring or scrutinizing each other, or lined up together side-by-side at urinals in an absurdly large men's room. Towards the end, a young woman shows up who changes the atmosphere a bit

The sad pop song that was played at the very end while the ticket woman was walking home in the rain, after all of the silence, was kind of surprising but felt right

Yes, yes, yes, and yes to all of that. Plus its gay bona fides

The ticket woman looking at the bun, that's one of the images I remember most from it.

https://www.highonfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/GDI-cover.jpg

"The sad pop song that was played at the very end while the ticket woman was walking home in the rain, after all of the silence, was kind of surprising but felt right"

One of the best endings

So what did the Tsai fans herein think of What Time Is It There?

I liked it, but it's been a while so I don't have firm thoughts about it.

I like it as much as Goodbye, Dragon Inn.

I saw What Time Is It There? several years ago and remember liking it. The connection between the characters in Taipei and Paris was interesting, and the sound design was really great.

It also starred Shiang-Chyi Chen, the ticket lady from Goodbye, Dragon Inn.

There is no way to watch it again for the foreseeable future though, at least in the US, unless you have an older dvd copy

What Time is it There? feels a bit like it’s fallen into the Blue Velvet zone, where at the time it came out it was thought to be an instant signpost of its director’s career, and is still in many ways the crossover hit, but is maybe now regarded by acolytes as a slightly “square” choice compared to the movies that go way harder into Lynchland/Tsaispace. That could just be my bias creeping in though

Dead Ringers is also in that same class these days, I’d argue

Dead Ringers always comes up among Cronenberg's two or three best, though. Am I wrong?

i never see that one come up compared to videodrome + the fly + crash

I'd put his Scanners through Naked Lunch run up there against anyone.

Yeah, Crash and Videodrome feel like the current Cronenberg go-to titles at this point. I rarely see many citing Dead Ringers these days

Also, The Brood’s take on trauma plays well with the times more than any of his other early/gory period

Dead Ringers is one of my fave Cronenbergs, Crash probably my least favorite of the ones I've seen, so I guess I'm out of step with the times.

Up here, I think Dead Ringers was a watershed where the mainstream press could finally talk about him as a Respectable Artist rather than a guy who makes those nasty horror movies.

(xpost) Not completely--or rather, you're not alone: Dead Ringers is so much better.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Crash has my in-spirit second-choice vote

The thing is...Dead Ringers is as grisly if not more than the earlier films.

The casting of Brideshead poof Jeremy Irons gives it a veneer of respectability, I guess.

I love it, but to me it definitely has kind of an arthouse veneer production-wise that the earlier ones don't. It feels more "serious."

I don’t see the anger in Ringers as being any more palpable or powerful than in The Brood

(Not the misogyny, for that matter)

DR is funnier than The Brood. And co-stars Genevieve Bujold.

“What is your deal, chum?”

Art Hindle using a child’s drawing to cover up the bludgeoned face of a preschool teacher while her class cowers is pretty funny tbh

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

There it is, the same #1 as the Morbsies #1

CRASH (David Cronenberg; Canada; 1996) 4

my people

GOODBYE, DRAGON INN (Tsai Ming-liang; Taiwan; 2003) 7
GOODFELLAS (Martin Scorsese; USA; 1990) 7

My people ... deadlocked with there's-always-one people

thing about needing to always snipe about it is you're the group saying they dont want to talk about it

Well you've got me wrong there. I'm always very game to shit on Goodfellas

You guys sure like Kubrick

p good top5 if you remove the winner

Same number of votes for Crash and Annie Hall, which feels appropriate

Does anyone who dislikes any of these films literally think they should not be seen? Like would you advise a young film student "do not watch this, it's that bad"?

I would advise young film students to watch bad movies a lot, you learn a lot from them!

It's difficult for me to think of a movie that "shouldn't be seen" period but there's certainly a few on this list where I'd say "consider watching this instead, it's a better version of this sort of thing".

I would advise young film students to watch bad movies a lot

Ditto

What lesson does 2001, viewed as "bad", teach better than a run-of-the-mill bad film?

My advice to film students

'I have no general ideas about the cinema. I can only talk to you about my cinema.'
This International Translation Day, we recommend you preorder "My Cinema," a 400-page volume of writing by Marguerite Duras about her 19 films.
Arriving in December from: https://t.co/FTKmpvlL5J pic.twitter.com/WeFOictuey

— Another Gaze / Another Screen (@anothergaze) September 30, 2023