Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

As stated.

I guess this thread is the place for this — I got a press release from our local Sheriff's Office today saying they'd had many media queries about "anti-Jewish Rhetoric being distributed" being distributed in our county. (Apologies for the weird capitalized "rhetoric," our Sheriff's Office is only quasi-literate.) It just said that their major crimes and gang units were "looking into the matter," with no further detail.

I haven't seen examples of what this is referring to, and it struck me that it could be either our local Nazi/Proud Boy types out there distributing horrible leaflets, OR it could be student-led "Free Palestine" social media posts or something, and those things seem like they're increasingly being conflated.

Best piece I've read on literary culture at this time. Hard not to conclude the whole thing is a disgrace.

https://thebaffler.com/latest/at-the-threshold-of-humanity-kattan

Don't know much about this organization but this seems like one way to counteract those who try to stir hate:

The pro-Palestine protesters made it clear that the masked neo-Nazis were not welcome, chanting “Nazis Go Home,” and “show your faces, you fucking cowards,” the Daily Montanan reported.

That is just one of the tactics that organizers of pro-Palestine solidarity protests can use to make clear to neo-Nazis that they are not welcome in that movement, according to Ben Lorber, an extremism expert who is working on a book about antisemitism. “It is vital for Palestine liberation organizers and progressive activists to recognize and counter far-right actors who stand diametrically opposed to the movement’s principles and goals,” Lorber wrote in a recent guide for organizers.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7zx5a/neo-nazis-hijack-pro-palestine-protest-mike-enoch

Personally, I find it much better to see an effort to recognize and counteract this kind of thing, rather than dismissing or denying that it exists

that's encouraging

Black-Jewish Alliance ✊🏿✡
@BlackJewishA
Police are attempting to arrest Jews in prayer.

We shout “let us pray” for Palestine.

The police have confiscated copies of our speeches.

GET YOUR COP HANDS OFF OUR JEWISH COMRADES

Video of harassment within that tweet.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2023/11/02/frick-museum-in-pittsburgh-postpones-islamic-art-exhibition-over-fears-it-would-appear-insensitive-or-traumatic-amid-gaza-war

“When war broke out in the Middle East, we were as heartbroken as everyone, and we realised that we were about to open an exhibition that a forgiving person would call insensitive, but for many people, especially in our community, would be traumatic.”

it's so insensitive and traumatic that muslims exist

this whole thing is so devastating.

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

An Israeli air strike on the Bureij refugee camp today

https://x.com/ramabdu/status/1720067423238308122

If you use this thread on anything going on in Gaza or Israel.

Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging

I have seen videos of anti-Semitic violence over the past week. These videos are exclusively Jewish peace protesters getting harassed by cops in North America, Orthodox Jewish peace protesters getting beaten by Israeli Police in Israel

My heart is ripped in two for my Jewish friends who are saying “not in my name” and being disowned, being called “self-hating Jews”, or— as the Times Of Jerusalem said in an op-ed two days ago: “anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

Jfc just because you’re saying “stop bombing Gaza” doesn’t make you “anti-Zionist”, to begin with

I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”; fine, first I will block you and never speak to you again, second I will call it something else. What, tho? Israel already doesn’t acknowledge a nakba exists. Anti-war Jews are liberally calling it a holocaust, a shoah; those terms are not allowed to me as a non-Jew.

I feel like one can’t even call it “war” or “a conflict”; Gideon Levy argued that it is neither of these things, that it is a violent occupation, nothing more

Haaretz today reports Netanyahu’s latest speech: “nothing can stop us”.

Anyway, 9000 Gazans dead today, 3 hostages returned, congrats everyone

“anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

I mean ... fwiw, I do think a very not insignificant number of Christians are let's just say in Westboro's ballpark, if not on the same base

"I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”"

So much hate.

(xp Not the point of the thread, I know, sorry)

"The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging"

posters on this board are worried about their children being bullied at school for being Jewish

Sorry if my posts were emotional or “in the wrong thread” I shouldn’t post when I’m in a news consumption crying spiral, and I shouldn’t read pro-violence NYT articles (or the NYT at all), I am going to call a friend

I agree with everything else in your post, but you can be horrified by the massacre of innocents in Gaza (and the West Bank) while also being worried about anti-semitic violence

Tbh, the biggest “holy shit what are you guys doing” anti-Semitism concern over the past week has been seeing people on social media cheering on “Yemen declares war on Israel” when it’s the Houthis declaring war, not the Yemeni gvmt, and if anybody is cheering for Houthis then we have a big fucking problem

I have been seeing the odd report of AS attacks across Europe now, like this one.

A Moldovan couple arrested for allegedly spray-painting Stars of David on a Paris school last week reportedly told investigators they were acting on orders from an “individual in Russia.”https://t.co/VvJOmmoCAh

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) November 2, 2023

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

"zionist jews" now trending on twitter, that's that shit i don't like

Caitlyn Jenner's dead name is also trending there today, which says it all

sorry meant to post on the "is this anti-semitism?" thread

I thought this was pretty good:

You are criticizing Israel wrong. Here’s how to do it correctly. pic.twitter.com/DiwBTJOuiG

— Matt Lieb?? (@mattlieb) October 28, 2023

nice to finally see a video of Van Horn Street

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

― omar little, Thursday, November 2, 2023 12:29 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is upsetting me a lot right now. I know it sounds naïve but I was genuinely surprised at how fast people seized the opportunity to be flat out anti-Semitic. I grew up spending 1/2 the year in a mostly Jewish community in NY where I as a gentile was often the odd one out. 3 of my 5 lifelong close friends are Jewish. I said to one of them yesterday that I think I grew up in this little bubble were I didn't realize how much anti-semitism there still was out there and he was like yeah no shit you're from NY. Anyway - there are a million upsetting things (upsetting isn't anywhere near strong enough) happening right now but I have been thinking a lot about exactly this, OL. :/

it's not good. i have a friend who was indulging in some "deep thoughts" about judaism around the time kanye was on one about jewish people, and i had an instagram convo w/him re: a couple of his posts. i don't know that i reached him, but i tried. another friend (no longer a friend) started to get very alt-right and was an associate of ow3n b3njamin for awhile, a podcast comedian type guy who started to get into some anti-semitic and racist stuff a few years ago. that particular friend is long gone. he was at my wedding. he probably helped hold me up high in my chair during the hora. he just wound up being a particularly "bad actor" in life. and a pernicious influence on others.

i live in a bubble in Los Angeles obv, but shit does happen here. threats against synagogues, anti-semitic graffiti on a famous local deli last night, etc...

the Poetry Foundation shelved a 3500-word review of a poetry book that discusses the book's criticisms of Israel...the poet author of the book is, of course, Jewish, and so is the reviewer.

The donor pocketbook is where artistic freedom hits a wall

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes)

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

O rly

If a HAMAS sympathizer or a HAMAS-adjacent amateur lone wolf carries out a gun attack in the USA killing more than 10 people in the name is Palestine … this poll will flip like a flapjack. https://t.co/NkWdyaliV7

— Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) November 2, 2023

and if my granny had wheels, she'd be a bicycle. I like the specificity of ten or more people, it shows a vigorous imagination.

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, November 2, 2023 1:41 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
My kid’s teacher canceled their Russia unit. Like I really don’t think it matters to Ukrainian lives whether our kids are learning about faberge eggs and Baryshnikov

re: that poll.. I'm not really sure that Israel needs much military support anyway... they're a major arms manufacturer/exporter, inventors of the Uzi submachine gun. And they seemed to have no issues selling arms to South Africa's white minority government

and yet the House just approved 14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

$4 billion for the Iron Dome, which kind of seems like locking the gate after the dog gets out.

Wake Forest professor resigns after backlash due to tweet

https://journalnow.com/news/local/wake-professor-resigns-following-backlash-of-social-media-post-on-israeli-hamas-war/article_4e1022a4-78ea-11ee-a828-ffa8e334019a.html

(She’s a really good poet, fwiw!)

14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

er, mm, by long tradition all those billions can only be spent on armaments produced by US-based death merchants military-industrial complex manufacturers.

And lots of defence contracting

Protests are being planned for Armistice Day. Looks like the match will be lit on the tiniest pretence

"They died for your freedom, but don't you dare think about exercising it." https://t.co/xyCICKV35j

— James B (@piercepenniless) November 3, 2023

Clare Hymer
@ClareHymer
HAPPENING NOW: Another peaceful sit-in calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, this time at Kings Cross Station.

the only additional freedoms that came because of GB participation in the world wars was the bankrupting and partial destruction of an evil global empire and the resultant decline arguably sped up the process of decolonisation that followed. "Protect our freedoms" my fucking arsehole, it was a warfare state that forced conscripts onto the battlefield, which is the absolute opposite of freedom.

David Adler
@davidrkadler
New bill in the French 🇫🇷 Senate : 'An insult committed against the State of Israel is punishable by two years of imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros.'

I don't even want to paste in what Germany are doing, just utterly disgusting

Belgian transport workers saved the lives of thousands of Jews in the 1940s by unlocking the doors of trains headed for the extermination camps. Now, they're refusing to load weapons onto ships headed to Israel. This is a meaningful & timeless solidarity with humanity. pic.twitter.com/kvcUMcnJd7

— Amro Ali (@_amroali) November 3, 2023

Wokeness run amok

Scoop: Blinken told Israeli war cabinet humanitarian pause will buy Israel time for Gaza operation. My story on @axioshttps://t.co/PkpZ8vrk5H

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) November 4, 2023

Sorry, I blocked the Nazi social media website but it seems as if somebody is accusing Biden in being “complicit” in Palestinian massacre? What a concept

Quite an interesting set of remarks by this father (terrible headline), on his daughter's who have torn up those Israeli hostage fliers.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/03/news/father-of-aya-and-dana-bakaret-who-tore-israeli-posters-insists-they-are-good-girls/

“What happened in Manhattan with my daughters, I believe them. The lady provoke them, stole from their hand a picture of the baby and told her ‘this is going to keep happening to you as long as you support these people.’”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2023/11/04/nyt-jazmine-hughes-resigns/

Central London blocked. Charing Cross station occupied.

---

Georgie Robertson
@_GeorgieBlaise
·
2h
🚨 HAPPENING NOW: huge sit in at Charring Cross station. Police have closed every entrance so hundreds more outside can’t join us. #CeasefireForGazaNOW #FreePalestine

The New York Times
@nytimes
Jazmine Hughes, an award-winning New York Times Magazine staff writer, resigned from the publication on Friday after she signed a letter that voiced support for Palestinians and protested Israel’s siege in Gaza.

These new twitter links are hella annoying

psa for all you can paste x links into ilx and then just erase the x in the url and type in twitter and the tweet will embed like the old days

There are issues with tweets embeds as outlined here.

Is this anti-semitism?

While that's to do with threads and not individual tweets I am trying to just link tweets as it makes some people mad that I am just linking to twitter at all (I am not going to stop, though I am having a go at defusing the issue).

But right now I think we're past that, because a lot of the messaging that causes people to link together Israel and The Jews In General is coming direct from Israel and pro-Israel Jewish groups, on purpose, with no concern for how they are setting up Jews around the world for a rise in antisemitism. The corollary to "Israel = The Jews; if you are anti-Israel you are anti-Semitic" is "If Israel does something you have to take a stance against, then you may as well embrace antisemitism in general." And right now Israel is committing atrocities and the world is not going to forgive the Jews for that. It's been 2000 years and people are still saying "The Jews killed Jesus" - how long will "The Jews carried out an ethnic cleansing" be used as a weapon against the world's Jewish population? I was talking to my dad about this, and he pointed out that an explosion in global antisemitism means more Jews seeing Israel as the only safe place to live, which means more settlers, which is what Netanyahu wants, so why would he care about the safety of Jews worldwide?

I don't mean this to suggest that I'm looking at this whole conflict through the lens of "Is this good for the Jews?" My primary concern is for Gaza. But when I do take a moment to look through that lens, it is undoubtedly very bad for the Jews.

― Lily Dale, Sunday, 5 November 2023 17:11 (six hours ago) link

I understand this line of thinking, but will never accept it, it's just excusing antisemitism. No one is saying "well Islamophobia is mainly the fault of Muslim groups that associate Islam with radicalization" Plenty of people are just happy to have an excuse to be antisemitic. Antisemitism quite obviously did not start with the founding of Israel. Whatever Bibi does, it shouldn't change that we don't have to prove we are "one of the good ones" before being afforded basic respect and dignity. I apply the same standard to all groups of people.

Yes, it's sometimes difficult to discuss how it feels to experience this as an American Jewish person without others getting weirdly defensive about the mere suggestion that they may have a slight bias or blind spot.

It feels a bit like being a woman and trying to discuss sexism with someone who gets angry and then mansplains to you how he's one of the good ones.

I find it most discouraging when people try to rationalize by explaining there has always been antisemitism, and surely we need to admit this, as if it's just a natural feature of the landscape that we should just be expected to tolerate.

Luckily, I did not grow up to believe that. I had very idealistic and accepting friends and supportive family. I just tune people out that try to explain my own experience back to me in a negative way. We do not just experience history. We also make it.

man alive, I didn't mean to say that antisemitism was mainly the fault of Israel, or that Israel's messaging is an excuse for antisemitism. I just meant that I think any message that represents Jews as a monolithic group is its own form of antisemitism, and one that I find very dangerous right now.

I think the analogy man alive makes in your previous post is quite a good one. Regardless of whether or not one thinks that all Muslims bear responsibility for the actions of groups who purport that atrocities they commit are in the name of Islam (and, to be clear, this is similarly a horrible and racist idea) it is clear that to do so is common and, based on a quick skim of British newspapers, respectable in many quarters. In this equation I think its pretty clear that there are a range of actors linked by an interest in making Islam and violence synonymous, regardless of the extreme divergence of their motivations. Both are culpable for forging this slanderous connection.

The wholesale commandeering of identities by fringe or conservative elements within them, motivated by deep animus, is common and tends to be enthusiastically embraced by the sensible, measured bigots that populate the opinion columns of the world. I think also of the, often unchallenged, framing of transphobia as the protection of women's or "LGB" rights. The spectacle of swivel-eyed right-wing thugs 'standing up for "LGB" rights' is not a reassuring or comforting development, and I feel a deep but difficult to articulate resonance with the images of the Jewish protesters being arrested in NYC with 'Not in my name' t-shirts. The horror and nauseating feeling of being implicated and used in such a cynical way. It seems especially galling given that apportioning blame for the state of Israel to jewish people everywhere is recognised as a fundamental expression and vector of antisemitism.

Nicholas Courtman
@CourtmanNick
German MP from the liberal party (!) calling for the parliament to eliminate foreigners’ right to organise protests and deny their right to association as a response to pro-Palestinian demonstrations, I see

dunno what that ! is about - the liberal party is the FDP, i.e. libertarian cranks, no surprise they'd be into this

Have seen a strong reaction to protests in Germany (and ofc the UK), across the pol class. But yes it's to be seen whether something is ratified in Parliament...just something to keep an eye on.

I could imagine it going through yeah, and it is v scary

wouldn't put it past the german left either tbh

Interesting thread on why the US having no red lines is bad foreign policy.

---

Jeet Heer
@HeerJeet
·
1h
1. I want to suggest that Biden shouldn't be guided by domestic politics on this but by what is in the foreign policy interest of the USA. Biden is giving de facto unequivocal support (with a few rhetorical cautions) to a massacre. That is bad for America. Period

the thing about this copy paste technique is that there's no way for us to click to the rest of the thread

I prefer it

I know, it's responding to something else so the embed would be an issue here.

People who are on twitter can seek it out.

People who hate the platform can ignore it.

xp

8. What you have right now is a State Dept filled with people who know the policies they are executing are bad for America and for the world, in addition to being morally revolting. The domestic politics of this seem secondary to me compared to that.

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) November 6, 2023

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-wanted-to-fire-far-right-minister-caved-under-ben-gvirs-opposition-tv/

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wanted to fire Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu for saying one of Israel’s options in the war against Hamas is to nuke Gaza, but buckled following opposition from far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, Channel 12 news reports.

Ben Gvir, who heads the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, of which Eliyahu is a member, told Netanyahu he would not cooperate with the effort, saying the government should be focusing on destroying Hamas, not “educating ministers,” according to the network. Netanyahu then folded."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/humber-student-boycott-israeli-apartheid-1.7020897

kicked out of school for a "boycott Israeli apartheid" sticker...

Rashida Tlaib censured by the House due to "from the river to the sea"....https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/07/us/politics/tlaib-censure-house-israel-gaza.html?te=1&nl=from-the-times&emc=edit_ufn_20231107

A source shared with me this resignation letter from Victoria Ruiz, the pro-Palestine public defender who was forced out of her position this week by a NY Post-led harassment campaign. Tells her side of the story. pic.twitter.com/a17KTgYjH7

— Brendan O'Connor (@_grendan) November 8, 2023

New York public defender forced to resign for attending a pro-Palestine vigil

Surrounded by some of her progressive Democratic colleagues, Tlaib said earlier Tuesday she would not be "silenced" and accused members of distorting her words.

"I can't believe we have to say this, but Palestinian people are not disposable," she said before she broke down in tears for several seconds earlier on Tuesday. Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., stood to comfort Tlaib before she continued.

"We are human beings just like anyone else. My sity, my grandmother -- like all Palestinians -- just wants to live her life with freedom and human dignity we all deserve," she said. "Speaking up to save lives no matter faith, no matter ethnicity should not be controversial in this chamber. The cries of the Palestinian and Israeli children sound no different to me. What I don't understand is why the cries of Palestinian children sound different to you all. We cannot lose our shared humanity."

ridiculous censure vote, ridiculous institution

This is something at least:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/congressional-staffers-stage-walkout-gaza-ceasefire-1234872959/amp/

Over 100 congressional staffers staged a walkout in front of the Capitol on Wednesday afternoon, calling on the representatives they work for to endorse a ceasefire in the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza.

The staffers held a vigil for the 1,400 Israelis killed in Hamas’ October 7 terrorist attack against Israel, as well as the more than 10,000 Palestinians killed in Israel’s retaliatory siege against the Gaza Strip.

“We were horrified by the brutal October 7th attacks on Israeli civilians, and we are horrified by the overwhelming response by the Israeli government that has killed thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza,” Congressional Staff For A Ceasefire wrote in a statement. “Our constituents are pleading for a ceasefire, and we are the staffers answering their calls.”

“Most of our bosses on Capitol Hill are not listening to the people they represent. We demand our leaders speak up: call for a ceasefire, a release of all hostages, and an immediate de-escalation now,” they added.

A friend was fired

https://hardcrackers.com/on-being-fired-academic-repression-and-the-struggle-for-palestine/

Fired for teaching by the syllabus? I hope she does file a complaint.

From the latest Bookforum newsletter:

Since we last wrote you, more than five hundred writers have signed a letter boycotting Artforum and other Penske Media Corporation (PMC) art publications, including Art in America and ARTnews, in the wake of editor David Velasco’s firing. n+1 has published an open letter drafted by a group of Jewish writers, artists, and activists disavowing the idea “that any criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic.”

BED BATH & BEYOND SCION PRESSURED ARTISTS TO RETRACT GAZA CEASEFIRE CALL IN ARTFORUM LETTER
The editor who published the letter in Artforum was fired after the wealthy art patron Martin Eisenberg’s behind-the-scenes push

Big Pillow strikes again

That popped up a lot on my feed last week. Quite a few people (writers and staff members such as editors) also resigned or pulled written pieces from Artforum in protest.

Taj Ali
@Taj_Ali1
·
21h
BREAKING: The Trade Unionists for Palestine group have shut down a Melbourne port, preventing trucks from accessing the area where an Israeli shipping line operates.

Protesters say shipping line ZIM has a long history of complicity in the oppression of the Palestinian people

Taj Ali
@Taj_Ali1
·
7h
When Nelson Mandela was released from prison he came to Australia to especially thank the trade unionists who had blockaded ships carrying goods to and from apartheid South Africa.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/09/palestinian-author-adania-shibli-frankfurt-book-fair

The Zoomers are all right:

https://www.browndailyherald.com/article/2023/11/an-open-letter-from-jewish-students

There is a big protest at Union Station in Toronto today, Jewish people staging a sit-in in solidarity with Palestinians.

https://x.com/surjto/status/1722601639666696560

That statement from the Jewish students of Brown is really good

Certainly the best student statement I’ve read

Yes, it's incredibly well-articulated. When you consider, too, that the most vitriolic anti-Semitism is being directed toward them, it's inspiring to see such erudition and grace in the face of such bullshit.

Just a week ago, an op-ed from The Jerusalem Post argued to strip anti-ceasefire Jewish protesters of their Judaism, calling them "un-Jews":

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-771479

*pro-ceasefire, excuse me

I really hope the students don't have their lives totally destroyed over this

I thought this was the most interesting part of that deeply unpleasant article:

The prominence of visibly Jewish anti-Zionists in the ongoing flood of bile and opprobrium targeting the Jewish state in the aftermath of the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust should repulse us all.

bile and opprobrium is right - the existence of these people is clearly irritating on an existential level - does "should repulse us all" imply that they aren't repulsing enough people yet?

There was an absolutely horrific editorial in the Jerusalem Post saying that left wing Jewish people involved in the protests shouldn’t be considered Jewish at all.

oh sorry, I didn’t scroll up.

I hope it goes no further than just being a horrific editorial - it is evidence that the protests are genuinely undermining their propaganda efforts which is something

Would like to find out where in halakha it is written that the editor of the Jerusalem Post has the power to determine who is and is not Jewish

https://www.timesofisrael.com/avi-mayer-prominent-pro-israel-activist-named-editor-of-the-jerusalem-post/

Propagandist zaddy tbf

fp

:)

I hope it goes no further than just being a horrific editorial - it is evidence that the protests are genuinely undermining their propaganda efforts which is something

― Left, Thursday, November 9, 2023 12:59 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

there are a lot of people in the israeli government very interested in adjudicating who exactly is jewish. small example below

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/ultra-orthodox-mk-compares-reform-jews-to-pigs-672296

also waht is a person who is "visibly jewish" they see them at protests

I think there are still a lot of liberal American Jews, especially older ones, who don't realize that the Israeli right wing is also against them. It's easy to not get it if you just go hang out in Tel Aviv, see the Wailing Wall, and come home.

even the wailing wall isn't safe, the kind of thing described in the below article happens fairly regularly

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-clash-with-reform-worshipers-at-western-wall/

https://newrepublic.com/article/176781/open-letter-why-leaving-democratic-socialists-america

In the face of the wanton slaughter of innocents by Hamas, the calculated and depraved cruelty of its premeditated murder and kidnapping of the defenseless, including children and the elderly, several DSA locals—including its flagship New York City chapter—and the DSA International Committee promoted cheerleading demonstrations in support of Hamas’s actions. Given the well-known history of the organizations with which the NYC local and the International Committee partnered, it was predictable that the NYC demonstration would feature speeches that callously mocked the victims of Hamas and provided a venue for open expressions of antisemitism.

Not a single person I know who is a DSA member in NY— and all of them are Jewish!— agrees with that article, fwiw. It’s been making the rounds.

well, that's why they had to quit I guess

Good thread on the Indian "export" of up to 10k construction workers to replace Palestinians. As the thread notes they will face shitty conditions and racism.

Like they do in much of the middle- east. Not really sure what unions can do.
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Ayushi Nayak ଆୟୂଷୀ ନାୟକ
@ayushi_nayak
Trade unions in India have noted their decision to oppose this, and I really hope the different groups can come together to protect the rights and safety of all Indian workers which will undoubtedly be put at risk if they are “exported” to Israel right now 1

There is a close relationship between Netanyahu and Modi.

I think there are still a lot of liberal American Jews, especially older ones, who don't realize that the Israeli right wing is also against them.

Liberal American Jews fully realize this, which is why they have always been anti-Netanyahu, especially now that Netanhayu has welcomed the true psychos, once consensus pariahs, into the government.

One of the DSA quitters wrote a “why I’m quitting the DSA” piece two years ago.

I wonder how often you can do the “I’m a lifelong supporter of blah, but now I’m voting the other way” as a grift. Maybe do some compensated cable channel appearances. One such guy was documented doing this twice in the last year on twitter!

The key is flip-flopping. "I was a lifelong Democrat but" "I became a born again Christian Republican but" into infinity.

i have always been of opinion that consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative

There is a close relationship between Netanyahu and Modi.

Yes, they both hate Muslims.

What a joke.

---

Eylon Levy
@EylonALevy
If Hamas is holding your relatives as human shields in Gaza City, please ask them to call the
@IDF
’s Human Shield Hotline.

It could save a life

Workers for a Free Palestine
@Workers4Pal
BREAKING: 400+ trade unionists are blockading multiple entrances to an arms factory in Kent which provides weapons for the Israeli military.

We demand an immediate #CEASEFIRENOW to halt the killing of civilians in Palestine & an end to British complicity in Israeli war crimes!

Not read this yet. In the latest LRB you have this piece on the arms industry and it's exports to Israel.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n22/james-butler/up-in-arms

_There is a close relationship between Netanyahu and Modi._

Yes, they both hate Muslims.

... and they both hate Muslims and prefer them dead.

yes

There is a close relationship between Netanyahu and Modi.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, November 9, 2023 5:27 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

hating muslims really brings people together

lol sorry i'm the 70th person to say that but narendra modi is my bete noir

Indian elections next year, not sure how he is doing with the polling (or what the BJP are doing to get the system to work for them, e.g. cheat).

I haven't been following Indian politics as much lately, but thus far the problem with ejecting Modi has been the lack of credible opposition. Would love to have missed something on that front though

Same, don't think Congress are up to scratch but like to be wrong.

Modi is more popular than ever afaict.

the thing is, in a multi-ethnic or multi-religious state where there's a supremacist majority...it's hard to vote in tolerance! Indian Hindus, particularly upper-caste Hindus, are like, he makes the trains run on time!

xp not quite, but he is remarkably popular for having been in power for 9 years: https://www.reuters.com/world/india/inflation-hurting-modi-still-likely-win-indias-2024-polls-survey-2023-08-25/

and yes horseshoe otm, he's legitimately popular, though no doubt the BJP cheat frequently as well

and hating Muslims is like popping champagne together on New Year's Eve

xp

Seems like we are seeing more and more of these "coalitions" against popular incumbents. A coalition has won in Poland but iirc lost in Hungary.

Looks like economics (inflation) will dictate whether Modi wins. Definitely looks like it rn.

Probably under recognised how much the BJP interfered in the last UK election in certain marginal seats.

This article is better actually.

When I clicked the link, there was nothing there.

Sorry that’s my fault, I deleted the amp part of the link but didn’t see the alternative url at the bottom of the article

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/25/uk/bjp-kashmir-tory-uk-election-ge19-intl-gbr/index.html

I don't really have a good sense of how well effective the "anti-hindutva = hinduphobia" line has been playing internationally but it has been pretty infuriating how poorly the british media has covered this development, often just repeating the accusations uncritically because of who the targets are

man arrested in Calgary and charged with a hate crime for chanting....From the river to the sea. Legal scholars appear to be unimpressed

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-protest-arrest-palestinian-chant-1.7024279

Saba Amro, an organizer with Justice for Palestinians, said she was at the meeting before the protest with Cooley, as well as another organizer from her group, a CPS community liaison officer and another officer from CPS.

Amro says her group was told by police before the protest began that the phrase "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" was being looked at by the Crown prosecutor as potential hate speech.

"We asked the question directly, would anyone be charged on that particular day, Sunday, Nov. 5, for saying and chanting the phrase … and the answer we received was no," Amro told CBC News in an interview.

Richard Moon, a professor in the faculty of law at the University of Windsor, researches freedom of expression and says the charge of causing a disturbance with hate motivation applied to it is "surprising."

"It seems like a way of trying to bring about charges in a case like this where it seems unlikely that the requirements of the hate speech law could be satisfied," he said in an interview.

"Because the speech does not, clearly or obviously, count as sufficiently extreme to be regarded as hate speech under the Criminal Code, it appears the police may have used this roundabout way to bring charges against this individual."

When asked if the phrase in question meets the definition of hate speech, Moon said, "Certainly not. Its meaning is far too open-ended."

There’s some absolute horrific stuff being published in the UK atm

Can’t believe JC published this antisemitic filth. I had relatives murdered in the camps. It matters not whether their murderers had regrets. Are there worse people than Nazis - no there are not!

We should see resignations at the JC but we won’t. https://t.co/5b2vKu9mhe pic.twitter.com/SXeHk4ffYP

— Alex Sobel MP 🟣 (@alexsobel) November 10, 2023

Oh it's by Douglas Murray, that explains the pro-Nazi tone.

سماح
@samah_fadil
·
13h
a palestinian owned burger joint was burned down in melbourne. the owner has been vocal at pro-palestinian protests. pls check out the gofundme and help if you can

People protesting the slaughter in Gaza are sometimes asked why they don't protest about other atrocities, or why they're protesting here in Britain, far away. Part of the answer is that the UK directly arms Israel. I wrote about it for the new @LRB. https://t.co/p9SsVPJl8d

— James B (@piercepenniless) November 11, 2023

yeah also I feel like if your response to mass slaughter as we speak is whataboutism, you have some self examination to do.

The reality of people killing people in Congo or Sudan doesn’t erase dead Palestinian babies

Whataboutism is the very core of the Israeli government's approach to PR.

The UK is a bigger arms exporter to to Turkiye than to Israel so I don't think thats the reason per se. That being said, perception is more of a factor than actuality, and the UK govts are more vocally supportive of Israel than they are of Turkiye. I don't think there's any single reason behind why some protests are larger than others

🐦[People protesting the slaughter in Gaza are sometimes asked why they don’t protest about other atrocities, or why they’re protesting here in Britain, far away. Part of the answer is that the UK directly arms Israel. I wrote about it for the new @LRB🕸. https://t.co/p9SsVPJl8d🕸
— James B (@piercepenniless) November 11, 2023🕸]🐦

Higgins is more contemplative than angry, however. He has just returned from a state visit to Vietnam and Laos, and as he recounts his trip he remembers an encounter he once had with Henry Kissinger when the old cold war warrior was visiting Trinity College Dublin several years ago. “I remember I asked him if he regretted the illegal bombing of Laos and Cambodia (during the Vietnam war). He said: ‘I don’t think, Mr Higgins, I could ever find the regret that you would find sufficient’.”

who has actually heard of Western Sahara, West Papua

I had a realization the other day while I was having this same discussion about caring about one atrocity vs another, and it hit me that *I* care about Palestinians more than Rohingya because I care about and have connections to Israel. I can’t speak to what motivates other people. My views don’t fully square with most of the Free Palestine movement and I can’t pretend to be a part of it. But that’s why I have been spending probably 1/4 of my waking hours for the last month thinking and agonizing and reading and listening about these deaths, and not some other deaths.

For the people who demonstrated for us in London, thank you from Gaza. pic.twitter.com/MhBF4rBwNv

— Muhammad Smiry 🇵🇸 (@MuhammadSmiry) November 11, 2023

*I* care about Palestinians more than Rohingya because I care about and have connections to Israel

this is how I feel too

i have not been to any of the protests in my city up until now because i don't like flag waving and i don't want to participate in that from the river to the sea chant. i decided today that was not enough of a reason not to show up.

so, i went today. there was a bit of from the river to the sea chanting so i stood mute while that was happening, but that was just a tiny minority.

i listened to a much loved local actor recite 3 beautiful poems written by people from Gaza who have all been killed in the last 4 weeks. one was 9 years old and hers included the line Hands are for shaking with friends, not for shooting guns.

the turnout was quite overwhelming. i'd guesstimate that at least 75% of the people there had never been on a demo before in their lives. lots of families. lots of children. there were so many people there that the vast majority were unable to hear any of the speakers yet they stood there for hours, peacefully, in solidarity.

i heard someone say this is our Vietnam but that is too simplistic. i think it's bigger than that. i have been on hundreds of demos in my life for myriad causes but have never felt what i felt today. the sadness was almost too much.

i think these gatherings are going to get bigger by the week and at some point our overlords are going to get the fear, or at least i hope so. i'll be there every week i can.

Israel playing in Pristina tonight, pro-palestine march banned by the authorities

Man the replies to this tweet are so ghoulish and racist. Thankfully her mother (who is an amazing person Ash has posted many times about) is ok.

---

Ash Sarkar
@AyoCaesar
Yesterday, after the demonstration, my mum was accosted by two men on the tube. One shoved her pro-Palestinian placard into her face, called her "disgusting" and an antisemite, told her to go back to where she comes from.

As for me I caught the fag end of the protest yesterday. All the chants were played. All hits.

“Rishi Sunak’s a wasteman” my personal favourite

^^^

A summary of events in Germany:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate

"Some of the hostages held by Hamas have German citizenship, so when I asked a politician from Germany’s governing coalition what the government’s position was on those people, I was shocked when his response, in private, was: Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen, which translates to: well, those aren’t pure Germans. He didn’t choose from a host of perfectly acceptable terms to refer to Germans with dual citizenship, he didn’t even use adjectives such as richtige or echte to refer to them not being full or proper Germans – instead, he used the old Nazi term to differentiate between Aryans and non-Aryans."

There is a D-Notice in place to stop UK media reporting on SAS role in Gaza.

But we know SAS has deployed to UK base on Cyprus. We also know 33 RAF transport flights have flown from Cyprus to Tel Aviv in past month.

All media acceding to the D-Notice are complicit. pic.twitter.com/HN95HMGmqC

— Matt Kennard (@kennardmatt) November 12, 2023

Hamilton Nola has thoughts about how the political response in the U.S. has redrawn some lines for "the Left."

I have loved Bernie for years, and I am not writing this to relitigate anyone’s legacy, or to pose as some sort of moral arbiter. (I also know from long experience that there is nothing more foolish than purporting to Speak For The Left; I am only speaking for my own thoughts.) I am just making, I guess, a prediction, but even that would be overstating it. I’m just making an observation, of something that is already happening but maybe has not been fully digested yet. The Bernie Era of the American Left is over. I don’t know if another single most prominent hero will rise up behind him, or whether we’ll just have a period of many different people doing different things, but I am sure that the leaders who failed to find the moral clarity or courage to be in the right place on the issue of Gaza’s decimation have lost their credibility to a degree that will make it impossible for them to maintain their status as leaders on the Left.

https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/the-new-leaders-of-the-left

Nolan, obv.

Thread detailing a protest in Chicago today.

---

Jinx Press
@JinxPress
·
6h
HAPPENING NOW: Hundreds of activists occupying Chicago's Ogilvie Transportation Center.

Escalators have been shut down, protesters sitting on them.

Chants of "CEASEFIRE NOW!" ringing through every level.

That thread:
https://nitter.net/JinxPress/status/1724077488559583700

I'm here with Jewish Voice For Peace (@jvplive) where hundreds of us rushed in and occupied the Federal Building in Oakland.

The govt of Israel does not act on behalf of, nor represent, Jewish people.#CeasefireNOW #LetGazaLive #FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/KUorzUOaWl

— Boots Riley (@BootsRiley) November 14, 2023

Others will know better than me, but that JVP organization posted 'The Myth of "Civilian Israelis"' one their IG (albeit prior to October). I think they're like DSA or BLM in that they have different chapters so may not be representative of the whole thing (in this case it was Detroit)

Make own judgements on how much, or if, that matters, but worth mentioning at least

Layla 🪬
@itslaylas
first lawsuit is here for the doxxing truck at columbia university.
A student is filing a lawsuit for defamation, violation of civil rights, & intentional infliction of emotional distress.

---

People starting to sue for being called "pro-Hamas" and anti-Semitic.

I have mixed feelings about JVP eg for reasons stated above, also because they do weird caricatured versions of Jewish prayers/rituals seemingly in order to lend themselves legitimacy, which bothers me on a gut level, like if you don't wear tefillin as part of your normal practice that's fine, neither do I, but don't get up on a national stage and put them on wrong just to look more "Jewish." I also have friends who very sincerely protest with them and I don't think it's a bad thing overall.

Tracy Fuad
@tracyfuad
A museum in Germany cancelled an Afrofuturism exhibition the day before installation citing that the curator's posts on Instagram

---

You can guess the content of these posts.

were they pro-palestine or were they virulently anti-semitic?

I do not have Insta but was able to see this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Czl3iUyuvoz/?hl=en&img_index=1

that sounds like some bullshit

could be that some were deleted, but nothing struck me as particularly offensive on the page

It's best to begin any sentence with "I disavow the actions of Hamas" this month regardless of what follows. It was a little confusing at the McDonalds drive thru, but you can never be too cautious

"Sir, this is a Wendy's"

According to the letter posted in the Instagram account, Germany passed a resolution in 2019 declaring support for BDS antisemitic.

(Just fyi, I don't have an opinion on BDS.)

It might be helpful to remember that countries outside the US do not have a First Amendment (freedom of speech or freedom of association). As far as I know some countries have in fact made illegal certain forms of speech that are not illegal in the US.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I believe France apparently makes certain forms of antisemitic speech a violation of the penal code.

yes that is true, but I still think it's BS for Germany to declare that stating support for Palestine is anti-semitic because it wasn't prefaced with "of course October 7th was wrong". I mean I kind of think that's a given. That said, maybe it isn't for some people.

Yeah, you'd hope that they could have a video call, the museum could explain about the 2019 resolution, and the one slide about BDS could be taken down from the curator's insta if that were the issue so the Afrofuturism exhibit could go on.

Knowing Anais through friends, there is no way they would take down a post about BDS. Fuck that museum— but hey, at least Anais got the honorarium.

Also BDS isn’t antisemitic. Period.

Yes, I agree.

this like the museum being afraid of running afoul of german law

Most social media is ad-supported. So the entire social media industry is financially motivated to encourage controversy and grift. People are incentivized to stoke outrage and conflict by getting attention and clicks.

A few facts can be plucked out and sensationalized. People start doing their own research like they did with Covid.

No idea if avoiding controversy or creating controversy is in the best interest of the curator, the museum or the artists in this Afrofuturism exhibit. Because of where we are, a perceived failure to read the room has these kinds of outcomes. I feel bad for all the artists who won't have their work shown.

One of the most insidious things about calling BDS “antisemitic” is that it presumes that consumers— whether individual, corporate, or state-related— serve corporations, and that by refusing to buy from or invest in corporations based on values, those consumers are running afoul of basic human decency. It’s corporate interests legislating ethics, and that should make people feel queasy no matter whether it’s BDS or any other type of boycott or divestment.

Museum rep also states that BDS "questions Israel's right to exist", which seems a pretty nonsensical statement to me.

imo that 2019 resolution fucking sucks and curators falling foul of it are right to stand their ground, and if artists don’t get exhibited as a result that is the fault of the suck resolution and not of the curators

Was reading this thread earlier today on boycotts (wrt to the goings on in the Congo). It's strongly put, which is how I like it.

I can't boycott this, I can't stop watching that, I can't stop drinking this shit I can't stop eating that shit etc etc. Evaluate yourself because it is extremely sad how unable you are to be human.

— K.Diallo ☭ (@nyeusi_waasi) November 14, 2023

UEFA "looking into" Kosovo fans booing and whistling Israels national anthem. They recently fined Romania for "Kosovo is Serbia" banners in a recent qualifier (which in itself is contentious as Romania doesn't recognize Kosovo so the banners were a restatement of the Romanian governments official position)

Reading about the "March for Israel"

---
philip lewis
@Phil_Lewis_
Van Jones at the March for Israel: “I’m a peace guy, I pray for peace. No more rockets from Gaza, and no more bombs falling down on the people of Gaza.”

The crowd breaks out into a “NO CEASEFIRE” chant shortly after

Which country is that in?

an ad I was just served

https://i.postimg.cc/rybz1Kgw/Screenshot-20231115-085407.jpg

abominable

Every post on Threads, the failed response to Twitter that IG/Meta continues to try to push, is just the most ludicrous, racist pro-Israel stuff. I normally wouldn’t notice but there are ads for it when I scroll.

This is the report on a press conference on the situation with the International Law UN expert:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/australia-and-other-western-governments-paralysed-in-response-to-gaza-conflict-says-un-expert

Clip found through social media of the reporter asking the question on "domination", and getting a fairly contemptuous reply:

Daniel Hurst from The Guardian.
Allegedly he's the Foreign Affairs correspondent.
He tried to smear Francesca with gotcha question focusing on the word "domination".

Francesca is smarter than this media hack.
She chooses words bc there's legal justification. pic.twitter.com/Vi8md4RIvD

— Dean Rosario (@DeanRosario) November 14, 2023

Threads has a really annoying but apparently effective algorithm. I keep seeing pro-isreal posts from Threads in Instagram because I clicked on one once just to read what it was saying (I clicked on pro-Palestine threads also, but it keeps shoving the pro-Israel ones at me). I barely even use Threads.

I suppose that's just what discussion is like on most social media, but since I only use bluesky where things to this point have been mostly intelligent it's a shock to stumble upon what the rest of the internet is like.

It’s just Threads showing this stuff to me, no other social media.

The Reddit algorithm shows me stuff from all over MENA now. It’s been interesting to read perspectives from Lebanon, Tunisia, etc, although I suspect Reddit skews toward a certain demographic in those countries like it does in the US

My insta threads posts are solidly pro-Palestine, not that I ever click on them.

I have a few Jewish friends who are fairly hawkish but otherwise progressive on IG who need notice/support navigating antisemitism, but only one is sharing the kind of pretty-girl Israeli propaganda that’s become me A Thing since 7/10.

The Reddit algorithm shows me stuff from all over MENA now. It’s been interesting to read perspectives from Lebanon, Tunisia, etc, although I suspect Reddit skews toward a certain demographic in those countries like it does in the US

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, November 15, 2023 6:45 AM bookmarkflaglink

Agreed, it is interesting. I browse posts from r/Palestine, r/Israel, r/NYC, r/worldnews and other subs to get a sense of what people discuss and where they are posting from.

Very polarized opinions and sources. It's been a study in seeing selectively presented information.

I am glad that The Times - seeking to condemn our movement as extremists - clarified which of my words they found most threatening pic.twitter.com/HtLrT6rIPG

— Barnaby Raine (@BarnabyRaine) November 15, 2023

I think I only saw this on bluesky, but this VC dipshit is getting fired. Nice to see someone taking a fall for anti-Palestine comments for once (his commentary was blatantly racist and genocidal).

https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/sf-tech-firm-fires-partner-gaza-18491861.php

"Ballenegger posted comments on social media about the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas that were blatantly racist toward Palestinians. According to the screenshots, he wrote Sunday, “After the war, Israel should handle Gaza like China handles Xinjiang. Full surveillance state. Re education camps. Sterilizations. It's warranted and the only way to pacify the jihadi population.”

Business Insider reported that he doubled down in a second post, writing, “They reproduce like rabbits and raise them to be terrorists, creating more poverty misery and terrorism. Why should we allow that. The world would be a much better place if they didn't reproduce.”

Very good to see. Hope Biden chokes soon.

---

Indonesian Pres. Joko Widodo surprises Joe Biden by calling on the US "to do more to stop the atrocities in Gaza," declaring that a "ceasefire is a must for humanity." Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, and millions have rallied there in recent weeks. pic.twitter.com/NxKFLTNa3n

— BreakThrough News (@BTnewsroom) November 15, 2023

This is on the goings on at the NYT and American media in general

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/new-york-times-gaza-letter-resignation

Relatedly, Anne Boyer, the poetry editor for the NYTimes magazine, tendered her resignation today via a Substack post.

If this resignation leaves a hole in the news the size of poetry, then that is the true shape of the present.

https://www.kron4.com/news/apec-sf-2023/bay-bridge-protest-blocks-all-westbound-traffic/

SAN FRANCISCO (KRON) — Protesters blocked all lanes of westbound Interstate 80 traffic on the Bay Bridge during the Thursday morning commute. The protesters stopped their cars on the bridge, east of Treasure Island Road, and threw their keys into the Bay before chaining themselves together and to the bridge, according to California Highway Patrol.

"Relatedly, Anne Boyer, the poetry editor for the NYTimes magazine, tendered her resignation today via a Substack post."

Hope she can find something good soon.

from an interview with Zainab, a school student on the Tower Hamlets protest/walkout today https://t.co/Jh7E6xRiw5 pic.twitter.com/P3m17qfbyW

— bat020 (@bat020) November 16, 2023

Newham kids doing this tomorrow

Great.

---

You voted for a genocide.

My statement about Labour women being threatened, intimidated or having their offices vandalised: https://t.co/vDOLJVStpU pic.twitter.com/Cegt7vfMFD

— Siobhain McDonagh MP (@Siobhain_Mc) November 17, 2023

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-suggests-israel-should-prioritize-support-of-evangelicals-over-us-jews/

Former Israeli ambassador to the US Ron Dermer suggested Sunday that Israel should prioritize the “passionate and unequivocal” support of evangelical Christians over that of American Jews, who he said are “disproportionately among our critics.”

“People have to understand that the backbone of Israel’s support in the United States is the evangelical Christians. It’s true because of numbers and also because of their passionate and unequivocal support for Israel,” Dermer said in an onstage interview at a conference organized by Makor Rishon, a news outlet affiliated with the national religious community

The interview marked Dermer’s first public remarks since he ended a marathon seven-year term in January as Israel’s ambassador in Washington, where he became known for having the ear and “brain” of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

For years the Israel on Campus Coalition—a little-known organization with links to Israeli intelligence—has used student informants to spy on pro-Palestinian campus groups.

Haven't totally absorbed all of this, dismayed at the lack of support for a ceasefire, but some aspects of this are better than I expected

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/18/joe-biden-gaza-hamas-putin/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAwMjgzNjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzAxNjY1OTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDAyODM2MDAsImp0aSI6ImZmYzA1MTdmLWUyNjgtNDM3Mi05YjE1LTA5OWEzYjQwYjdlYSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9ucy8yMDIzLzExLzE4L2pvZS1iaWRlbi1nYXphLWhhbWFzLXB1dGluLyJ9.mOFUXh68oAfi8ipyt2e2znXrWbOasX59Nsavc9sjhaI

That letter is abominable. He won’t even cite the undercounted figures of Palestinians murdered by Israel. Pathetic.

don't think it'll lead to anything but at least it's being made an issue: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/18/democrats-in-senate-house-discuss-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel-00127930

The Netanyahu government, or hopefully a new Israeli government, must understand that not one penny will be coming to Israel from the U.S. unless there is a fundamental change in their military and political positions. Read my statement: pic.twitter.com/x3LlSRhuYO

— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) November 18, 2023

I only learned recently that Reagan suspended fighter jet sales to Israel in order to pressure them on Lebanon. I was kind of surprised by that. Made me think a little better of Reagan.

Uhhhh no

You dont gotta hand it to him

There been a lot of Reagan/Bush stanning lately by 20 year old self described Communists on Twitter on this one issue and I’m thinking “do you guys know anything else about these guys?”

i think 20 year-old self-described communists on twitter are aware of at least some of reagan and ghwb's (i'm assuming that's the bush you mean because i haven't seen much gwb praise) many other failings and if anything them seeming better than biden re: israel is just an indictment of biden and a sign of just how far things have shifted for the worse

i do think gwhb having done more to try to force a resolution to the situation than any other president in the last few decades is worthy of praise and is one of the few positive parts of his legacy

Yeah, otm - there are shades to this. The US can do more by being a lot tougher on arms sales and applying pressure, and I see the Biden admin's wordings as a continuation of domestic policy by being really anemic, late and ineffective on policy and communication.

Palestine continues to win the PR battle on 0.1% of the budget or probably less pic.twitter.com/h0lqNj6jXH

— ‏تمار 🌴 Тама́р 🌴 תמר (@tamars) November 17, 2023

I see the Biden admin's wordings as a continuation of domestic policy by being really anemic, late and ineffective on policy and communication.

it's worse than that really, it's that they're fundamentally not interested in applying pressure on israel beyond the bare minimum needed for pr purposes - "you have to let at least a little bit of aid in so you don't look too monstrous" etc.

i think 20 year-old self-described communists on twitter are aware of at least some of reagan and ghwb's (i'm assuming that's the bush you mean because i haven't seen much gwb praise) many other failings and if anything them seeming better than biden re: israel is just an indictment of biden and a sign of just how far things have shifted for the worse

i do think gwhb having done more to try to force a resolution to the situation than any other president in the last few decades is worthy of praise and is one of the few positive parts of his legacy

― ufo,

GHWB's secretary of state James Baker was the last to tell the Israelis to fuck off.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/18/23966137/us-weapons-israel-biden-package-explained

there are a lot of interesting/depressing details in this article, including:

Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin is a former board member of Raytheon, the major military contractor that co-produces Iron Dome receptors with the Israeli company Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. RTX, as Raytheon has been renamed, is one of the most significant providers to Israel. Austin and many other senior appointees to the Pentagon bring a depth of experience working for the arms industry. Even if they aren’t directly involved in the day-to-day — Austin has had to recuse himself from the Department of Defense’s dealings with Raytheon — the heft these appointments bring shows the seriousness with which the Biden administration takes the defense industrial base.

As Austin told the Senate, “We are flowing security assistance to Israel at the speed of war.”

Secretary of State Antony Blinken co-founded WestExec Advisors in 2017, which has worked for military contractors, new military-tech startups, and Israeli companies. Blinken, for his part, advised the defense contractor Boeing, according to his financial disclosure. Last month, Boeing rushed the transfer of 1,000 smart bombs and 1,800 GPS-guidance bomb kits to Israel.

Much of the team that worked to get Israel the $38 billion Obama package over 10 years is leading the way. Other key State Department officials include Daniel Shapiro, who also worked for the Israel spyware maker NSO Group when he was out of government. Intelligence leaders, too, bring vast experience. Avril Haines, the director of the Office of National Intelligence, has worked as an adviser to the data-processing powerhouse Palantir, which has been a staunch supporter of Israel and apparently provides advanced tech to the Israeli military.

Saw some talk of the polls on the US threads but this seems Ike an overreach to me. There is more than a year to go and as awful as the genocidal actions are by the Israeli government people forget.

Biden is destroying his presidency (and possibly American democracy) on behalf of a government of fanatics that is carrying on war of retribution that his own military says has no coherent strategy and endgame. https://t.co/pdiwRqgqRL

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) November 19, 2023

second half of the sentence is bang on tho

NYT reporting on Israel’s video of the Al-Shifa tunnels demonstrates a marked change in tone for the paper

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/19/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/israel-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-gaza-video-tunnel?smid=url-share

wasn't sure what you meant by that - how so?

some xposts but it is not surprising that the ghouls in Biden’s administration make bank off of ethnic cleansing. Shameful shit.

So is the U.S. looking forward to more Trump or ersatz Trump?
Shame there isn't more alternative to govt than the 2 parties.

@tamars
·
1h
IAF bombing of Indonesian Hospital injured Head of Orthopedics Dr. Adnan Al-Barash

🎥 Staff at Indonesian Hospital unable to evacuate patients and wounded from ICU due to critical condition
🎥 Martyrs from IAF bombing in courtyard of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Deir Al-Balah

Yes to this in the UK too. Everyone on the left is mostly marching, at the least.

Fracturing?? I’ve never seen the left more unified than it is now. YIMBYs, NIMBYs, socdems, commies, anarchists all marching and organizing together for Palestinian liberation. It’s genuinely beautiful pic.twitter.com/O2ymQ8CoaB

— dylan saba (@shaabiranks) November 20, 2023

Imagine being the official account for the Auschwitz Memorial and tweeting this out at this time.

https://x.com/AuschwitzMuseum/status/1726517498088931617?s=20

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2023/11/20/an-open-letter-on-the-misuse-of-holocaust-memory/

BREAKING: South Africa’s parliament votes (248 vs 91) to close the Israeli embassy in South Africa, send the Israeli ambassador home, and suspend diplomatic relations with Israel.

— Shailja Patel (@shailjapatel) November 21, 2023

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-11-20/ty-article/.premium/deep-faked-soldiers-and-spoofed-websites-russian-campaign-pushes-gaza-disinformation/0000018b-ed5c-d36e-a3cb-fd5fadd90000

I’m kind of surprised by how subtle a lot of the examples are.

pretty rich for Israel to be talking disinfo and false propaganda

Sorry if this was posted before, someone I know shared this on Facebook as the gospel truth and it seems like the most insane thing, like straight up fiction.

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/columnist/365220/the-inside-story-of-how-palestinians-took-over-the-world

People of color, particularly antisemitic Black groups like BLM

oh fuuuuuuuuuuuck you

Just like you were a Zionist campus activist, we will create, over the next years, Palestinian campus activists in America and all over the world. Bigger and better than any Zionist activists.

Has anyone measured these new activists?

pretty rich for Israel to be talking disinfo and false propaganda

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, 21 November 2023 19:50 (one hour ago) link

Haaretz is not "Israel" and the article is not only about anti-Israel disinformation, but your reflexive responses continue to be boring and bot-like.

point taken about the article.

My responses might be boring and bot-like, but perhaps that's the price of not seeing an issue as "complex."

My responses might be boring and bot-like, but perhaps that's the price of not seeing an issue as "complex."

In this instance no one could accuse you of not being fully self-aware.

Some of the most evil shit I’ve ever heard. Of course coming from a guy from the Obama admin.

A lobbying group has severed connections with Stuart Seldowitz, a former adviser to ex-President Barack Obama after videos where he made Islamophobic remarks and issued threats to a New York City food cart employee surfaced online.

The footage, shared on Twitter by a Columbia… pic.twitter.com/jyAYhxZgU5

— AHMED | أحمد (@ASE) November 21, 2023

From the looks of it, he makes a point to return to that cart on different days just to harass the guy with racist taunts and threats, all for his own bemusement. What a piece of shit.

After a ceasefire has been agreed as a wording this fucking shit of a man calls it a humanitarian pause to save face

Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
I welcome the news of an agreement to release the first hostages and to have a substantial humanitarian pause in hostilities between Israel and Hamas

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/should-us-aid-to-israel-be-contingent-on-human-rights

Every one of these interviews with mainstream democrats - "yes i recognize that awful things are being done by Israel and Palestinians have a reason to be angry as well, but you have to understand, i'm trying to avoid thinking about that."

The Israeli propaganda operation in the US just isn’t hitting the same these days.

https://x.com/mbueckert/status/1727440702123204927?s=46&t=z1egexpHAtHcPPxgbp4Hrw

Yeah the propaganda effort elsewhere has been mostly embarrassing too e.g. this transparent attempt at pitting Malaysians and Singaporeans against each other over their differing approaches to Israel (Malaysia = pro-Palestine, no diplomatic relations with Israel; Singapore = neutral, receives military support from Israel). Backfired very quickly:

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3242483/malaysia-singapore-users-x-slam-israeli-activists-bid-sow-discord-between-neighbours-were

March in London this Saturday.

🚨The route for the March for Palestine on Saturday 25 November has now been confirmed. 🇵🇸

It will be assembling on Park Lane at 12:30PM and marching to Whitehall.#CeasefireNOW #FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/iStUNeB25L

— PSC (@PSCupdates) November 23, 2023

BREAKING: Several pro-Palestine activists were arrested for staging a sit-in on the march route of the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade in New York City pic.twitter.com/kv9pUQgO77

— BreakThrough News (@BTnewsroom) November 23, 2023

some dear friends among those arrested

HARVARD LAW REVIEW EDITORS VOTE TO KILL ARTICLE ABOUT GENOCIDE IN GAZA

You can read the article here

Seldowitz arrested!

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/22/us/seldowitz-ex-obama-official-islamophobic-comments/index.html

Excellent! what a shitbag!

Israelis have “children”, while Palestinians have “people aged 18 and younger”. https://t.co/5nmLPc0VKN pic.twitter.com/gsoSs9HE8N

— Karl Hansen (@karl_fh) November 23, 2023

https://www.972mag.com/october-7-families-victims-hostages-peace/

This is a very good article

They made a fake Hamas website that's literally just "hello we are evil please give us money to kill Israel and take over ze vorld muhahha" https://t.co/NyZtNla8Dw pic.twitter.com/PNQ7sd5qyi

— Hbomberguy (@Hbomberguy) November 24, 2023

Cal CS lecturer apparently being investigated for giving this talk at the end of a lecture

https://www.reddit.com/r/berkeley/comments/181vkym/peyrin_kao_after_lecture_transcript_about/

Its not just that the hamas.com site is so ill-thought out, its also why did it take Israel 38 days to create it? In fact, why did it take them any days to create it, why wasn't this built and registered beforehand, years ago ready. to update whenever necessary. The PR and propaganda for western markets has been so basic and lackadaisical, its unathomable

if they ever got called on that site directly, in a press conference or something, what would be the answer? "the site is meant to show the evil of Hamas, ppl aren't meant to believe that it was actually created by Hamas but it shows what they stand for" or something like that?

Also why are they the ones tweeting it out directly, instead of either using a major western personality to do it, or a smaller niche one and letting it bubble up from there. It feels like they haven't built any of that out

I’m not sure “Israel’s propaganda ops aren’t robust enough!” is the lesson we should be garnering.

It's an observation not a lesson. Anyway on top of the myth of the allseeing ominpotence of the Israeli intelligence services going down the toilet, they are coming out of this looking like rank amateurs on the PR and propaganda front.

oh absolutely.

On top of the bragging about being the only democracy in the Middle East, Israeli governments like to present an image of being sleekly professional, efficient and effective in the midst of dreadful chaotic Arab states who couldn't organize the proverbial piss up in a brewery.

I didn't previously have much of an opinion either way on the attempted interference in UK elections thing (kind of presume all states do this to some extent), but it seems less likely now

A thread on the topic of hasbara and its failings as of recent:

https://x.com/MouinRabbani/status/1727948091053977757?s=20

The addendum points out something salient, too, and that is that since the late aughts, Palestinians have been training people to be citizen journalists and broadcast news to the world...so that the hegemony of Israeli narratives has essentially been shattered by social media platforms. This also explains why older people still tend to be more pro-Israel and younger people tend to be more pro-Palestine, I think.

Table

Americans overall continue to side strongly with Israel, but polling shows those views have grown increasingly polarized across party and generation since even before the war. An NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll earlier this month found 48 percent of Gen Z and millennial adults said Israel’s military response has been “too much,” compared with 38 percent of the public overall. Most young adults disapprove of Biden’s handling of the situation, according to national polls this month by Fox News, Quinnipiac University and Marist College. And a recent poll from NBC News found that 70 percent of voters age 18 to 34 disapprove of Biden’s handling of the war.

This is from

https://wapo.st/410Ydis

(Non-paywall gift link)

thanks!

So tired of watching Israeli government spokespeople bullying, browbeating and arguing with interviewers, while mechanically churning out the same buzzwords and set phrases. Not sure what the point of interviewing these people is.

Hamas offering the release of the rest of the hostages for all Palestinian prisoners.

Here are the latest developments in Gaza and the occupied West Bank as the truce deal between Israel and Hamas enters its third day.

🔴 LIVE updates: https://t.co/QSgZrAagUW pic.twitter.com/dJsmQJnEjV

— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) November 26, 2023

https://news.snbc13.com/burlington-shooting-palestinian-students-hisham-awartani-kenan-abdelhamid-and-another-hurt-heavy-police-in-burlington-vermont/

Was about to post that. Awful.

It’s pretty bad when I have to sympathise with a cunt like Leo Varadkar.

Irish citizen Emily Hand was one of the hostages being held by Hamas. She is only six years old. When her father heard she’d been taken hostage and (initially) suspected dead, he said he was so happy she was dead because he feared what would happen to her.

She was released yesterday. Leo Varadkar made a statement about it:

This is the full statement I issued yesterday regarding the release of Emily Hand pic.twitter.com/v6N6bmbbmo

— Leo Varadkar (@LeoVaradkar) November 26, 2023

#Breaking The Israeli foreign minister says he has summoned the Irish ambassador in Tel Aviv "for a reprimand" following Taoiseach Leo Varadkar's remarks on the release of Emily Hand https://t.co/P57j6GyMMp

— RTÉ News (@rtenews) November 26, 2023

In response to Mr Varadkar's social media remarks, Israeli foreign minister Eli Cohen accused the Taoiseach of "losing his moral compass" and needing "a reality check".

"Emily Hand was not 'lost', she was kidnapped by a terror organization worse than ISIS that murdered her stepmother," he said. He added: "Emily and more than 30 other Israeli children were taken hostage by Hamas, and you Leo Varadkar are trying to legitimize and normalize terror. Shame on you!"

That's so stupid

"his love has been constant" lol ok

Not sure what is “lol ok” about that.

not sure "thank god my daughter is dead" is a constant love but we all show love in different ways

Yeah because he was in the horrors imagining her being tortured and harmed - that’s the context for that remark. Given he didn’t know that he’d ever see her again, it would be better for the child to have died rather than the child to have been tortured during the rest of her life. Didn’t think that would need so much (or any) explaining. I’m not even a parent and I understand what he meant.

we all show love in different ways, don't we

I’d rather my child were dead than raped and tortured for two months. I’m glad you can be so smug about the superiority of the way you prefer people to show love. Get bent.

as a parent i’m saying each of you should stfu

Why are Israel going after...Ireland?!

yeah it's a mystery

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/11/09/there-can-be-no-peace-or-security-for-israel-without-justice-for-palestinians-says-varadkar/

worse than ISIS

this is some tim heidecker shit

This is where twitter really comes into its own.

this is actually so insane, does BBC think no one in the world speaks arabic and will be able to tell that they are lying? https://t.co/80wa1P7VUt pic.twitter.com/ccYx2DgMB4

— tara (@taraxrh) November 26, 2023

https://abcnews.go.com/US/suspect-arrested-shooting-3-students-palestinian-descent-vermont/story?id=105173520

https://heavy.com/news/jason-j-eaton-burlington-vermont/

another one of these people who sounds like they were in a precarious mental situation already and then spent entirely too much time online and went over the deepend.

Cindy McCain on Gaza:

“We are looking at possibly being on the brink of famine. With that comes disease. We need more trucks in, we need to have more access to distribute that aide. Hopefully a longer time to do that, not just four days.”

“It is a massive, catastrophic event… pic.twitter.com/vJMNHaSRIX

— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) November 28, 2023

cindy mccain probably the only human in the mccain clan

Exqueeze me, are you hating on Edwin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qrTmNDZ-nc

i'm not fooled, you can't put a wig on Billy Corgan and get away with it

(in seriousness though, you know it's fucking bad when a McCain of all people says enough is enough)

she's like a director of the world food program it's kinda her job

ton of people whose job it is who are turning a blind eye to what's happening, tbf

not that anybody deserves special credit for doing their job in this case

Never has the university seemed so desolate and despicable. Institutions truly showing their asses.

@Columbia cancelled another #Palestine-focused event, this time one organized by Columbia Global Centers in Amman, Jordan. It was scheduled for this Thursday on "Academic Praxis and the Question of Palestine”. 🧵1/3 pic.twitter.com/DCKFWN4Jn4

— Katherine Franke (@ProfKFranke) November 27, 2023

Worth clicking through, but what it gets at is that Said had bulletproof glass on his offices and faced constant bomb threats throughout his time at Columbia. They've now effectively disavowed him and his scholarship. A real pity.

Thread from Vincent.

Vincent Bevins
@Vinncent
In May, I was invited to give the keynote address at an interdisciplinary conference at the University of Regensburg (Germany) to present my new book. Two days before the talk this month I was informed this invitation had been rescinded, due to pro-Palestine posts on social media

This was his post from October 7th but I feel that this is fine as a response from an outsider. Yair Wallach, who is a reasonable academic whom I follow, disagrees

This was neither smart nor cool https://t.co/0wwJTmO9DE

— Yair Wallach (@YairWallach) November 28, 2023

This was a further caveat

Vincent Bevins
@Vinncent
·
7 Oct
I find the death of any human being deplorable, and I admit I do not really know what is happening on the ground. But as a general principle almost everyone will justify war and violence under certain circumstances. Right now I truly hope for as little human suffering as possible

Bevins is in the right, imho.

YW is right to comment on that, though Bevins seemed to have been reacting to events before details emerged - who knows. He may have left the tweet up for accountability. Either way, he wasn’t just speaking in general terms, he was commenting on a live event, so criticism is deserved because he was not commenting on abstract events.

I am trying to be forgiving of people's in-the-moment reactions. I can even see how maybe, before the extent of the carnage was appreciated, some people might have gotten excited to see bulldozers tearing through the border fence and paragliders sailing over it and the like. The question I keep trying to ask myself is "Am I just using this person's behavior or statements as an excuse to wall myself off emotionally, because it's easier?"

Gyac, this may surprise you but I have actually thought about your comments to these threads a lot recently and they have been helpful to me in hanging onto some sense of humanity and hope.

Seconding appreciation of gyac

gyac as Valued Poster so great as to deserve its own thread IMO

Gyac, this may surprise you but I have actually thought about your comments to these threads a lot recently and they have been helpful to me in hanging onto some sense of humanity and hope.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)
Posted: 29 November 2023 at 14:43:09
I am trying to be forgiving of people's in-the-moment reactions. I can even see how maybe, before the extent of the carnage was appreciated, some people might have gotten excited to see bulldozers tearing through the border fence and paragliders sailing over it and the like. The question I keep trying to ask myself is "Am I just using this person's behavior or statements as an excuse to wall myself off emotionally, because it's easier?"

Gyac otm

My dear friend renounced her Israeli citizenship last week and made a video about it that has been making the rounds:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0NbMSkhxlb/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

thanks for sharing that FGTI

I often feel very torn between defensive and critical postures because so much completely batshit and covertly antisemitic stuff gets said about Israel and at the same time there is enough actually bad stuff to criticise. E.g. I just saw a college activist claim that the Israeli military killed its own civilians on 10/7 because it has a "doctrine" that it will kill anyone who comes into contact with Hamas. This was an extremely wild telephone game distortion of something called the Hannibal doctrine which actually was just a concept proposed with respect to military hostages and it's not clear it's ever actually been applied (the prisoner exchange for Gilad Shalit would suggest otherwise).

Even the tenor of posts on the other thread occasionally veers not quite into conspiracy theory territory but "here is another bad thing said or done by an Israeli" with the implied collective effect of "Israelis are irredeemably bad people."

I appreciated and fully understood everything said by FGTI's friend, and at the same time I think there are *some* aspects of what she said that would be true of any society - the poor have less power than the rich, the poor get the shitty jobs in the military, hierarchy plays a major role in society, there is racism, the nation does not live up to its national mythology, etc. In the context of actual atrocities and her childhood experience, I can see how those other things take on a different significance. I have certainly had the thought cross my mind a bunch of times that I'd like to just never visit Israel again, dissociate myself from it, etc (I don't have citizenship nor have I ever intended to get it). At the same time I retain a certain feeling of "Jews are a small people in the world, and however imperfect, we have to stick together, no one else will come for us if we don't help ourselves." That remains my eternal internal conflict. Today I feel less like dissociating myself and more like advocating for some kind of political solution that will mean that Israel's existence (in some form or other) does not have to require the occupation and domination of another people or the deprivation of their rights. I don't know what it is, and I think whatever it is will have to be imperfect and messy and not a socialist utopia, but at least something with full rights for Palestinians (whether within a single state, two states, a federation, etc.) that doesn't cause so much death and humiliation and doesn't require so much of its youth to serve as an occupation force.

I often feel very torn between defensive and critical postures because so much completely batshit and covertly antisemitic stuff gets said about Israel and at the same time there is enough actually bad stuff to criticise. E.g. I just saw a college activist claim that the Israeli military killed its own civilians on 10/7 because it has a "doctrine" that it will kill anyone who comes into contact with Hamas. This was an extremely wild telephone game distortion of something called the Hannibal doctrine which actually was just a concept proposed with respect to military hostages and it's not clear it's ever actually been applied (the prisoner exchange for Gilad Shalit would suggest otherwise).

Your post is thought provoking as well.

The thing is, I am psychically and emotionally attached to Israel in a way I can't fully explain, and that I don't think can be reduced to *only* a rational idea (I could go there if shit hit the fan) or solely to nationalist mythmaking/propaganda, and certainly partially though not solely being married to an Israeli. Like when Israelis are attacked, I feel attacked, and when Israel does something terribly wrong, I feel as though I am responsible for it in some way, to the point that it haunts me day and night. And I'm sure it is partially from generational trauma and partially from the mythology and partially from the role of the idea of Israel (not necessarily the modern nation state, but Israel) in Jewish liturgy and theology that I grew up with, and partially some complex I have about strength, weakness, masculinity and victimhood, and partially fear of death/non-existence. So I don't know how to answer the good question you ask about conflating Israeli, Israelis, and Jews more generally, because I feel this identification with the state I can't let go of, even though it's very much not of a piece with people who attend Israel rallies and wave flags.

Like when Israelis are attacked, I feel attacked, and when Israel does something terribly wrong, I feel as though I am responsible for it in some way, to the point that it haunts me day and night.

Yeah, intellectually of course I know that’s true. I have an obsessive personality. I don’t want to exaggerate either but the current situation is very much haunting me, as though I have an obligation to find an answer.

(Very unusually for me) I wrote my congressperson today to call for the release of Anas Abu Srour, who runs a youth center in the Aida Refugee Camp that people from my church visited last year.

https://english.pnn.ps/news/46607

I think I need to retreat from Big Thoughts and just try to focus my energy into these kinds of small daily exertions, following the lead of people who have been at it for longer when they tell me "Just do this with me, it will help."

appreciate your posts Man Alive. You really articulate a lot of the same thoughts and conflicts I've been feeling

I had an Israeli passport as a child and I guess I just assume my citizenship has somehow lapsed...definitely not planning to take any steps to reup.

One reason why Vivian Silver and her story have haunted me is that she represents a model of an Israeli who stayed and fought against the apartheid state...it's very hard to have any influence on Israel from Vancouver or Toronto (especially since Israel only allows absentee voting for active duty soldiers or for settlers). I feel some element of guilt about my own powerlessness, but the reality is that just as Israel's responded aggressively to many non-violent forms of resistance from Palestinians and their allies, there are not many choices for Israelis who want to end the occupation.

I think gyac points to the crucial challenge of assessing the appropriateness of the tweets by Bevins (and other similar types of comments/responses).

On the one hand there is an important moral assessment, which is what gyac discusses and what I would argue is most pressing. People may vary in how they assess this and I think the way that moral discussion is so easily derailed into moralising makes this kind of discussion fairly undesirable in a public realm saturated with bad faith. I'm totally in agreement what you said there gyac about how easy it is to substitute compassion with a self-serving calculous of one-upmanship in this context. On an individual level this is so imnportant to hold onto and so difficult when the natural response to such ongoing horror everywhere you look is to become steely, resolved and correct.

That said, I think when you think about it in the context of Bevins being cancelled, the comment needs to be considered in a different way. Would a similar comment, where the author had expressed support for the ongoing military actions by Israel in the oPt, resulted in a similar censure. Even without the excuse that the scale of brutality is not yet known, many 'respectable' figures have continued to argue that Israel's ongoing actions are justified by the events of October 7th. This is not just uncontroversial, its practically mandated in some sections of media and politics.

I think its important to separate these two ways of thinking about (in this case) Bevins tweet. I feel like in the first way of thinking about it he's in the wrong, but in the second way he's in the right and that both of these framings co-exist and are important but shouldn't be confused.

Sorry for meandering 'moral calculation' post. The tweet not being "smart" nor "cool" seems a weird and beside the point criticism though.

It doesn’t really seem weird to me for the reasons I said: the two are aware of and peers of each other, Bevins more left wing than Wallach but both on a continuum, YW is no doubt pulling his punches. I’ve read a lot from him over the years and he’s written a lot about Israel and his family and was devastated by the attacks - it seems pointless to litigate a single snide comment that clearly comes from a place of pain and disappointment if you are aware of him and his background.

But then I would - and have! - made similarly pointed remarks to people like that myself, usually with the aim of registering my own disappointment without wanting to fully litigate it at that point, so I get it.

i didn't mean it so much directed at YW (who I don't know), i guess i'm just consistently surprised at the language academic experts will now use publicly to discuss their field of expertise though that is a separate issue and one muddied here by the factors you mentioned.

I've only followed Wallach properly since October. Any hint of Israeli lives being in anyway -- as he sees it -- cheapened for anti-colonialism's sake gets a response. I think that can easily slide into what he sees as some kind of student-y leftism. Hence seeing Bevins as going for something "cool" and "smart" which isn't what Bevins was going for.

xp he’s probably not even that old

xp yeah, it shows.

I think it being his field of expertise probably less relevant than him being from Israel and having friends and family there. Where’s the academic distance there, and why should it even be requested in such circumstances? The majority killed were civilians. They were innocent. It might be abstract to Bevins and therefore he was thoughtless, but it wasn’t to him. That’s how I see it.

Sarah_Woolley
@Sarah_Woolley
·
17m
A friend who carries Shane MacGowan’s music deep in his heart told me today that the first time he ever encountered anything to do with Palestine solidarity was The Pogues fundraising in the Brixton foyer in front of an enormous Palestine flag

I would argue that it wasn’t abstract to Bevins. It also begs the question of how the daily violence of occupation is abstracted.

I would argue that policing a tweet of a few words of an Israeli man to this extent is extremely weird and not remotely smart and cool.

I don’t care.

Yeah, I can tell.

Even the tenor of posts on the other thread occasionally veers not quite into conspiracy theory territory but "here is another bad thing said or done by an Israeli" with the implied collective effect of "Israelis are irredeemably bad people."

This is certainly not a perfect comparison - I hope it's not an offensive one! - but I've often been reminded of how I felt during the Iraq war, as a terminally online kid with a lot of US friends. I was obv opposed to it, but found the way it was discussed amongst a lot of ppl I knew irl very bothersome, just all these assumptions about Dumb, Arrogant Americans and v little acknowledgement of the popular opposition to it in the US. ppl on holidays getting roped into being asked to justify political decisions they didn't agree with in the first place, that kind of thing.

anyway in retrospect I don't know if I had my priorities right - international outrage over the conflict was justified and correct, the fact that it trickled down into a kind of boorish chauvinism perhaps inevitable with any movement that garners widespread public support. obv it wasn't cool my friends were set upon by so many ppl eager to treat them as official representatives of the US government, obv also this shouldn't even register on the list of injustices surrounding the conflict (goes without saying that muslims around the world were experiencing something similar at the same time to a far more extreme extent). but yeah it sucks to be viewed as a representative for your country's shitty political decisions, and it sucks that many ppl can't look at conflicts without a tribalist "everyone living in this nation is a baddie" lens.

I would argue that policing a tweet of a few words of an Israeli man to this extent is extremely weird and not remotely smart and cool.

― mojo dojo casas house (gyac), Thursday, 30 November 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Doing direct feedback on his posting might be, but unless YW posts in this corner of the web.

Bevins losing speaking engagements over that tweet is clearly ridiculous, and Germany's threats to criminalize pro-Palestine sentiment are egregious.

I do find it disingenuous for Bevins, who wrote a book on the effectiveness of mass protest movements, to say he couldn't possibly know enough to comment on the strategic effectiveness of the Hamas attack.

On the march against semitism that took place in London.

https://vashtimedia.com/2023/12/01/formats/opinion/a-long-way-from-cable-street-antisemitism-march-palestine/

surprise surprise meme

all these assumptions about Dumb, Arrogant Americans and v little acknowledgement of the popular opposition to it in the US.

Still understandable when you recall that at the start of the Iraq war polls showed the U.S. opposition to be very scant, with a huge majority in favor.

I met more Americans that were in favour than not at the time, though this says more about Americans on holiday in European cities than the population as a whole.

1. Remaining quiet is not the same as consent, given the extremely small chance of one's opposition even getting recognized, let alone having it affect the outcome.

2. I was actually there, on the Mall, and we made a lot of noise, and it made exactly no difference.

Someone should ask Joe Biden, Kier Starmer, Rishi Sunak etc if they’re pleased by the resumption of bombing, given their earlier opposition to a cease fire.

well my point wasn't that the Iraq war was opposed by the majority of Americans, it's that if you have a personal connection to a place, know actual people from there, it's natural to feel a certain defensiveness when these kind of blithe categorical statements about countries come up, even when those countries are objectively fucking up

I say "natural" as opposed to "correct" or "important" because yeah I don't know to what extent it's justified to focus on that when actual atrocities are happening, man alive's post just hit on some stuff that made me remember those times tho as I said the situations aren't analogous

also see: thinking everyone who lives in a Red State is a conservative

we are, we all converted the moment the election results told us to

americans should get over it imo

there was widespread support for the Iraq war in official media channels. Journalists like Pankaj Mishra have written about how it was incredibly difficult to get published if you wanted to critique what Bush was doing. pretty much out and out censorship of dissenting opinions.

there was a great deal of popular protest, but it was covered as though it was fringe, as though dissenting was tantamount to terrorism.

anecdotally, as an American Muslim who opposed the war, i was surprised by how many acquaintances on the left supported it even though they had been critical of American military ventures in the past.

part of why i am having a hard time shutting up in my critiques of Biden, Blinken, et al, these days is because i feel guilty about how relatively quietist i was then.

your culture is so dominant that even the dissident parts of it are well known internationally - people saying americans do this or that know they're making sweeping statements but american feelings aren't their priority xp

people saying americans do this or that know they're making sweeping statements but american feelings aren't their priority

Nah that wasn't true at all for the situation I was talking about, because opposition to the Iraq war in Europe was mainstreamed to an extent where every pub bore was at it - which was ofc good because it was 100% the right position.

Not an American obviously.

Ok, then do we get to blame England for Tony Blair

President keyes you are not ever gonna get any blowback from left or indeed most ukilx posters for attacking England for any reason at all, have you seen our threads

Ok, then do we get to blame England for Tony Blair

The UK not England. Personally I have no problem with, for instance, Europeans thinking the British are a bunch of Brexit-voting xenophobes, I know I'm not so why should I care?

personally I blame britain for america

and england for britain for that matter

That was a Scotsman's idea though.

How central is Joe Biden to the US's continued support for Israel?

Listen to the analysis of Rachel Maddow, broadcaster and author, on the latest #Americast

— BBC Sounds (@BBCSounds) December 1, 2023

Maddow going full on fan fic here

This is encouraging, at least:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/01/uaw-ceasefire-gaza

Jennifer Hodgson
@jenniferhodgson
·
2h
We saw police arrest 3 children at the sweet and peaceful Palestine rally in Brixton today

Seeing the odd journo claiming they have been sacked for signing this letter

https://www.protect-journalists.com/

Protester self-immolates outside Israeli consulate in Atlanta

Reuters

December 2, 2023 9:03 PM GMT+9

Anat Sultan-Dadon, consul general of Israel to the southeastern U.S., said in a statement, "We are saddened to learn of the self-immolation at the entrance to the office building. It is tragic to see the hate and incitement toward Israel expressed in such a horrific way. The sanctity of life is our highest value. Our prayers are with the security officer who was injured while trying to prevent this tragic act. We are grateful to the city of Atlanta’s law enforcement and first responders for all they do to ensure safety."

Probably one of the more vile things I have read all week tbh

these terrorists will stoop to anything won’t they

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Americans approve of « Israel’s military action in Gaza » is driven by racial factors. Two out of three person of color in the US are opposing it, and two out of three white Americans are supporting it. College education doesn’t have an… pic.twitter.com/sxAszZyVwj

— Mohamed Dhia Hammami - محمد ضياء الهمامي (@MedDhiaH) December 3, 2023

Who'd have thought?

Statement by Hisham Awartani, one of the three Palestinian students who was shot in Vermont:

https://theindy.org/article/3137

He is paralyzed from the chest down, there is a gofundme for him- will link if i can locate it again.

cool I had been wondering if there was one

What I’d like like to say about Sultan-Daron’s statement upthread is pretty much unprintable.

here is the gofundme:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-hishams-recovery

Jonathan Cook
@Jonathan_K_Cook
·
9h
Letter to the British Medical Journal questions how it's possible that, in its rampage on Gaza, Israel has waged an unprecedented attack on hospitals and health care workers, and yet there's been not a peep of protest from western medical associations, the World Health…

Table, I’m hearing from a friend in Philadelphia that some Palestine advocates are targeting/boycotting Jewish-owned businesses? How true is this?

People are boycotting and targeting businesses owned by Michael Solomonov, whose culinary empire doubles as soft propaganda for Israel. https://www.zahavrestaurant.com/chef.html

"Goldie, Goldie you can’t hide, we charge you with genocide," the protesters can be heard shouting in the video.

The protesters shouted outside the restaurant and vandalized it, officials said.

This is not a great look.

My friend who lives in South Philly said it was more than just one guy’s businesses, that other Jewish-owned businesses were getting targeted. If that’s true, I’m not sure that’s how BDS is meant to operate (I don’t buy Israeli produce or goods fwiw, but personalising Zahav guy in that way doesn’t sit right with me).

Solomonov has raised around 100k for IDF related charities, and that seems to be what groups are protesting. However there's also a boycott of other businesses:

Since October, though, the Philadelphia Free Palestine Coalition has targeted what they claim to be “Zionist” restaurants and owners for boycotting — a boycott that has targeted not just restaurants who raise money for the IDF, but any restaurant owned by those they identify as a “Zionist” or raising money for “Israel” (“the Zionist State,” in the organization’s words). The lack of clarity from the coalition around the parameters around how they define a “Zionist” individual have left some to interpreting that they’re mainly boycotting openly Jewish restaurant owners and chefs.

BDS certainly isn’t meant to target individuals. I don’t know about the Philly Free Palestine Coalition’s goals around any bans or boycotts.

That said, Solomonov is an apologist for Israeli fascism, and isn’t some small businessman. I don’t really have a lot to say about it other than that, because we’re probably not going to agree.

Meanwhile, those businesses are still open and doing pretty well, and hundreds of Palestinians are getting murdered by a religious fascist Israeli government every day, so I am not too concerned about them at the moment.

In what sense is he an "apologist for Israeli fascism?"

If you’re raising funds for the IDF and you have said stuff like the below quote in official interviews, sorry, it’s apologism.

"Representing Israel and being an ambassador for Israel is my life's work, as is representing Philly. I think both places are often misunderstood and not appreciated to their fullest."

can’t believe i honestly have to debate people about this, the guy raises money for the military forces that are committing atrocities.

See, in that case I would probably not want to eat at his places but I wouldn’t picket - I’d recommend Palestinian food elsewhere instead. The last time I picketed a restaurant was at a UK burger place that deceived its workers (some of whom were undocumented) into attending a staff meeting where Immigration Control were waiting for them.

that's too bad, Zahav is an incredible restaurant.

I can attest to the absolute astonishment of Federal Donuts, but that’s all I know of his businesses— and I didn’t realize they’d switched ownership until a few weeks ago.

So the only info I could find about him raising money for an "IDF related charity" is United Hatzalah, which is a volunteer EMS service that serves all of Israel. I don't think the fact that it treats IDF soldiers along with civilians is really equivalent to making it an "IDF related charity" but maybe there's something more to it that I'm missing? I'm sure Palestinian medical services treat Hamas fighters too.

I guess I see the argument as far as him doing soft pro-Israel prop or whatever. Like I said, not going to lose my mind over it.

fwiw I saw this on bluesky when the protest came up: https://forward.com/food/378197/star-chef-solomonov-named-israels-new-culinary-ambassador/

But protesting this guy seems like a total waste of time and energy, tactically speaking

He told the public that he would be donating 100 percent of all sales on Thursday, October 12th to Friends of United Hatzalah — a nonprofit emergency medical service that is currently partnering with Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) during the war to provide medical supplies and training. The fundraiser raised more than $100,000, according to Solomonov’s Instagram.

While United Hatzalah is supporting the Israeli army during wartime, typically it functions as emergency medical support complementary to Magen David Adom, Israel’s paramedic and Red Cross service.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/04/white-house-philadelphia-protest-israel-restaurant-antisemitic

wow quoting Canary Mission just because they emailed you is pretty bad

The amount of manufactured consent that people are breathlessly buying into about this incident is wild— a few stickers were put on a door. Some slogans were chanted. And suddenly thousands of people calling for an end to genocide are guilty of antisemitism. Ridiculous.

Speaking of genocide and the inability of western media and governments to say what is happening:

Prism: Your research also touches on how the identities of the victims can shape conceptions of genocide. I was wondering if you could tell me a bit more about that.

Samudzi: It’s this idea that there are certain kinds of people that are inviolable: that certain kinds of people, because they are not human, can be killed and enslaved and rendered as collateral damage. And so what’s difficult and what’s challenging about these genocide recognitions or these utilizations of international law is that all of these liberal democratic international political structures have the logics of imperialism and colonialism enshrined within them.

For example, the ICC overwhelmingly has tried and convicted Africans. This is not to say that the people who had been participating in the ongoing brutal humanitarian crises in the Congo should not be brought to any kind of justice. But it is to say that—why is it so much easier for international law to consistently go after these African violators of international law while they’re so unable to confront these Western states? Why was there not more insistence for George Bush or Tony Blair to go to the Hague for what they did to Afghanistan and to Iraq?

The world has been divided into racial geographies of people who create these laws and invent and interpret definitions of criminality and people who are simply subject to their political and geopolitical whims.

Yesterday, I asked a Foreign Office minister if British soldiers were being deployed on the ground in Gaza. He refused to answer.

Today, I have written to the Foreign Secretary demanding urgent clarification. pic.twitter.com/uTvqA1Drri

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) December 5, 2023

Right now there's a House Hearing on Antisemitism on College Campuses and Congressmen are calling out UPenn Professors by name and saying they are members of terrorist organizations.

Horrible.

---

Quite a brave thread, I think, in several respects. I hope Sky backs her in the way that certain other Anglophone news organisations definitely wouldn't. pic.twitter.com/0vH0NFQzPn

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) December 5, 2023

Right now there's a House Hearing on Antisemitism on College Campuses and Congressmen are calling out UPenn Professors by name and saying they are members of terrorist organizations.

Asking honestly, worried for some people I know.

I think it's over now, but I heard some of it through this page:

https://thehill.com/homenews/4341930-lawmakers-confront-university-leaders-on-rising-antisemitism-live-updates/

Here's a vid of a Congressman demanding specific profs to be fired:

UPenn's president tries to justify not firing faculty who have openly expressed antisemitic viewpoints.@RepJimBanks: "You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You're defending it." pic.twitter.com/NlqHtJhscx

— House Committee on Education & the Workforce (@EdWorkforceCmte) December 5, 2023

Okay, not anyone I know.

Still, completely absurd that this is happening at all IMHO. Just goes to show that Islamic students don’t matter to politicians or on college campuses.

One thing to keep in mind is that Philadelphia has the third highest Muslim population of any city in the US— a few blocks from UPenn’s main campus is an incredible and thriving Little Lebanon (tho of course it is made up of Lebanese, Palestinian, Yemeni, Tunisian, and other nationalities).

The anger at Solomonov is also part of this— even before the current conflict, he was accused of essentially appropriating Palestinian and Middle Eastern food and labeling it “Israeli.”

(Note that I merely know of these conflicts with Solomonov and am reporting them)

David Adler
@davidrkadler
BREAKING 🇮🇱🇩🇪 Starting this month, the German state of Saxony-Anhalt will require all applicants for German citizenship to submit a signed declaration of Israel's right to exist

Talk about overcompensating...

that house discussion was the lead up to this toothless resolution that conflates all anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/politics/house-vote-resolution-condemning-antisemitism/index.html

that conflates all anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 3:43 PM bookmarkflaglink

Not this again.

We've done this.

In this case it’s the Congress stating that anti-Zionism equals Antisemitism rather than folks on the internet arguing about it.

From Rep. Nadler’s opposition statement:

More problematically, the resolution suggests that ALL anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That is either intellectually disingenuous or just factually wrong. And it unfairly implicates many of my orthodox former constituents in Brooklyn, many of whose families rose from the ashes of the Holocaust.

While most anti-Zionism is indeed antisemitic, the authors, if they were at all familiar with Jewish history and culture, should know about Jewish anti-Zionism that was, and is, expressly NOT antisemitic. This resolution ignores the fact that even today, certain orthodox Hasidic Jewish communities—the Satmars in New York and others—as well as adherents of the pre-state Jewish labor movement have held views that are at odds with the modern Zionist conception.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, “the anti-Zionist world-view of the ultra-Orthodox groups . . . like the Satmar Hasidism perceives Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel as an anti-messianic act. . .” This is to say that these ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews believe that only the messiah can bring about the true Israel. And, I assure you, the Satmars are certainly NOT antisemitic.

I should also note that there are those who try to smear even progressive pro-Israel supporters with the inappropriate label of “Israel hater” or “anti-Zionist.” Under this resolution, those who love Israel deeply but criticize some of its policy approaches could be considered anti-Zionist. That could make every Democratic Jewish member of this body—because they all criticized the recent Israeli judicial reform package—de facto antisemites. Might that be the authors’ intention?

Again, let me be unequivocally clear: most anti-Zionism, particularly in this moment, has a real antisemitism problem. But we cannot fairly say that one equals the other.

this was a good report on it: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/house-anti-semitism-resolution/

I'm agreeing with you.

The resolution was stupid and the correct vote was "present."

It distracted from the testimony of the hearing of the horrific conditions on US campuses. It was an accountability for antisemitism hearing. Not an accountability for antizionism hearing.

Both violence towards Muslim students and death threats to Jewish students are abhorrent. They don't cancel each other out.

Except only one seems to be a real priority on campuses at the moment?

I think that one of the reasons I am so frustrated with current conversations about college campus environments is that there is an execrable rise in hatred toward both Jewish students and Muslim students, but the institutions seem to be really addressing only the former while presuming that the latter is just business-as-usual.

This is to say: the amount of latent, even blatant, antisemitism on college campuses before 10/7 was awful and real, and so was the amount of Islamophobia. I have taught students who told me that they didn’t wear their hijab because of Islamophobic harassment, and that’s in a city like Philly with a huge (and racialized) Muslim population.

I guess this is all to say that I really want people to feel safe, yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

It's a really stupid resolution and it's depressing that it exists. It strikes me as potentially somewhat inconsequential, but I really don't want to see further moves toward a McCarthy-like inquest into antizionism (and I don't even label myself as an antizionist).

Muslim students being shot does not cancel out with words directed at anyone.

yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 6:40 PM bookmarkflaglink

Did you watch the hearing?

What they are talking about is not privileging any group at the expense of another. It is about providing education in an environment free of bullying and harassment based on national origin, race, or ethnicity in accordance with federal law. This is an incredibly low bar and applies to all protected groups.

It's a nefarious thing to twist legitimate opposition to antisemitism in the US, or any group for that matter, into an affront against other US groups. Any principled legal argument against discrimination or harassment based on national origin, race or ethnicity is also a principled argument against illegal discrimination and harassment affecting other protected groups. If opposing discrimination or harassment of any protected group upsets you, then you might have some issues.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/05/nine-arrested-over-pro-palestinian-banner-in-london

felicity, your post doesn’t address the heart of my post, and willfully misreads me as another effort to smear me. i won’t be interacting with you or your bad-faith arguments on this site any longer.

Maybe a weird question, but is anyone familiar with Nissim Black? He's coming to perform at a Jewish solidarity rally here next week. I'd never heard of him, on first glance he seems like kind of a religious kook. But I have no idea what his standing is culturally in Israel or elsewhere.

Israeli officials justify bombing Gaza by recalling the Allied bombing of Dresden.

2 problems with that argument:
1 The Geneva Convention was brought in after WW2 to prevent such mass killings of civilians.
2 The destruction in Gaza is already comparable after just 2 months. pic.twitter.com/0HVbuc38SC

— James Schneider (@schneiderhome) December 7, 2023

The bombing of Dresden was two days.

I believe the point is that the destruction is still ongoing in Gaza

yeah I'm not sure what he's trying to convey in that post. that said both situations are deplorable and no one should positively compare their actions to the bombing of dresden as though that were some kind of good thing. maybe Israel needs to read Slaughterhouse Five.

They've been using that analogy since the start of the bombing campaign.

Sorry, James Schneider is "Israel"? Why do people provide these Twix posts without source or attribution.

Bombing is bad, sexual assault as warfare is bad, hostage taking is bad. What source are we discussing.

The tweet is discussing what Israel have said and why that's a problem. I don't know who is saying "bombing etc. is good here".

Here is more on what's unique here.
---
@joolsd
·
43m
and i think uniquely among these kinds of campaigns there are no air raid shelters in gaza, unlike north vietnam, germany, britain, etc

Sorry, James Schneider is "Israel"?

uh, James Schneider was not in any way trying to identify himself as "Israel". Nor did he attribute the argument to "Israel" as a whole, but to "Israeli authorities", unspecified, but the implication is the people with some sort of governmental authority. Both of those are quite clear if you take a moment to read it slowly.

What are you saying then.

His tweet uses a PDF with no link to source. Not to say that it's misinformation, but a PDF rather than link where the source can be verified is often a giveaway for misinformation.

It's basically hearsay. So fine, discuss this guy's take. But's that's what it is.

I recognised that graph from the FT

https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8aee7b

What I was saying was that your response, as quoted, made no sense when compared to what you were responding to.

Fine, let's discuss the graph from FT then.

Aimless, there are weeks of misinformation and conspiracy being posted here gullibly from Xitter for weeks, and the takes here further distort the truth.

Why don't you take a primer in recognizing and counteracting misinformation instead of thread policing one of ILX's few women immediately after I just mentioned the #metoo unless you are Jew protests about the 10/7 sexual assaults that were all over the news this week.

"Fine, let's discuss the graph from FT then."

Happy with that take from JS, hence posting it. It's hardly conspiracist.

The war has been going on for two months. Numerous ilxors have discussed their deep upset and fear about the war itself, their relationship to Israel and numerous other topics. I’ve seen people in these threads show patience and kindness to and actually try to discuss stuff with others like adults, if you don’t feel that’s something you can do, Aimless, find a way to block felicity, or stop posting itt. We can do without your “contributions”. It’s pretty easy to see when someone is posting from a place of upset and not goad them like a spiteful pos.

Yes, it's a take you are happy with. But people have complained about you doing this before. Post what you want, but don't expect people to go wading through the cesspool of Xitter to rely on or trust your sources.

The other day you were posting the MIT graduate advisor who was spreading anti-Zionist conspiracy theories, in response to the hearing if it was unreasonable that an American student would not want to be advised by him. And his citation to the video did not support the claims in the tweet you reposrted. But his thread was full of the "Z word" in the way you agreed not to use. He posted "Is Zionism a mental illness?" This is a graduate student and faculty advisor in neuroscience at MIT.

So yes, when you post tweets from people like that approvingly and without comment you are very much spreading conspiracy.

xp thank you gyac

Here is a basic article on recognizing misinformation.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/breaking-news-consumers-handbook-israel-and-gaza-edition-on-the-media

There's nothing wrong with your posts, xyzzz

table is the one who posted

Still, completely absurd that this is happening at all IMHO. Just goes to show that Islamic students don’t matter to politicians or on college campuses.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:27 AM bookmarkflaglink

in reference to the House hearing on antisemitisim and then said I missed the heart of his post.

Again, there's nothing wrong with anything I posted, or anything that you have posted, xyzzz.

"The other day you were posting the MIT graduate advisor who was spreading anti-Zionist conspiracy theories"

He hasn't been sacked by MIT. Besides all that the tweet is very clear in terms of the point made and the double standard he was arguing about, which is what I wanted to put across.

So I've got no problem with that either.

I think it's debatable whether "Israeli officials" did this, but there is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/the-gaza-diplomacy-of-biden-sunak-and-co-seems-to-be-heading-for-failure

Blinken’s bigger US goal to establish safe zones in Gaza’s war zone was never easy, and may ultimately prove a mirage. Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli ambassador to the UK, pointed to the bombing of Dresden in the second world war, as she insisted civilian casualties were inevitable in wars.

I'm not sure if that's a reference to this interview in particular or further comments made elsewhere: https://www.mediaite.com/uk/israeli-official-evokes-dresden/

Which is also what my earlier post was about, which felicity declined to actually address in any kind of way, instead opting to smear me by saying that I don't care about antisemitism. This was my post:

Except only one seems to be a real priority on campuses at the moment?

I think that one of the reasons I am so frustrated with current conversations about college campus environments is that there is an execrable rise in hatred toward both Jewish students and Muslim students, but the institutions seem to be really addressing only the former while presuming that the latter is just business-as-usual.

This is to say: the amount of latent, even blatant, antisemitism on college campuses before 10/7 was awful and real, and so was the amount of Islamophobia. I have taught students who told me that they didn’t wear their hijab because of Islamophobic harassment, and that’s in a city like Philly with a huge (and racialized) Muslim population.

I guess this is all to say that I really want people to feel safe, yet I become really frustrated when it feels like one group’s safety is privileged over another’s, in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 6:40 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

rob, a recent report from CNN has intimated that Israeli officials initially wanted to "flatten" Gaza, and had to be walked back by US officials. That said, it seems like they're getting their wish.

oh I don't need convincing about the derangement of Israel's military campaign; the numbers speak for themselves while also being incomprehensible. 1 out of 150 Gazan children have been killed according to an otherwise typically iffy Kristof column in today's nyt, and the current evacuation & bombing policy in the south (widely reported in lots of mainstream media) is astonishingly cruel. The 10/7 attack was also abhorrent if I need to make my perspective on that clear.

Anyway, I am sorry to pile on felicity, but I was wary of the misinformation characterization when the specific Dresden comparison rang a bell with things I'd seen earlier. Obviously other tweets posted in the past may have been misinfo--I'm not sure what the MIT discussion refers to.

It’s interesting to read the NYT and see a particular trend emerging: a multimedia story today about “life for people trapped in Gaza”, with reference links to three other stories that also claim people as being “trapped” there. Prepping readers for a feeling of relief when surviving Gazans are inevitably permanently evacuated: this wasn’t their home, it was a trap they were caught in

"But his thread was full of the "Z word" in the way you agreed not to use. He posted "Is Zionism a mental illness"

Zionism is far too much in the discourse, there have been things posted by other posters that use the word and discuss Zionism, so it can't be entirely avoided.

The point I took from our discussion wasn't to use the Z word in an aggressive manner myself, but ofc I will bring in other perspectives where needed. I want to see Palestinian voices on here.

Otherwise I do some checking of what I post (like I know who James Schneider is in UK politics) but in the end I am often posting a take, discourse for people to talk about if they wish. It's a take I am often agreeing with but it's fine if it's not perfect or sourced. Like, I know this.

felicity declined to actually address in any kind of way

First of all, I am not obligated to focus on what you deem important. You're not a tyrant.

instead opting to smear me by saying that I don't care about antisemitism.

You'd better quote paste where I did that.

What you may have been taking personally is saying that there is something wrong with people who do not identify as either who constantly feel the need to play Muslim students in the US against Jewish students in the US. Maybe this is you.

in an almost exact mirror image of how things are playing out in the larger conflict.

Do you understand that you are dragging Muslim students and Jewish students studying in US universities, who have nothing to do with foreign policy, into a discussion about "the larger conflict" and it's extremely offensive. Please stop playing with groups of people in your mind in this way.

As for your student who feels intimidated to wear hijab, that is terrible and I hope you exercised your obligation as faculty to report it and do what you can to make the school a safe place for her. If more teachers would do that instead of posting hate online maybe we wouldnt be here.

xyzzzz, as you know I like you and am not trying to stifle you. Just take care with who you spread if you can.

i won’t be interacting with you or your bad-faith arguments on this site any longer.

Though ultimately I will keep posting as I am I would just add that I am only explaining this at length because I like you too Felicity.

Take care.

And table - thanks!

felicity, I'm a little confused about invoking the House hearing. I didn't watch it, but I read a bit about it and got the impression it was a GOP-led opportunity for grandstanding and berating the presidents of three elite northeastern private universities (all three were women, notably I thought), but not in any way a genuine attempt to address antisemitism on college campuses, especially across the US and in other kinds of institutions. Am I wrong? Did you find it to be a serious effort? I'm genuinely asking as like I said I didn't watch it, but people I broadly trust dismissed it so I assumed I didn't miss anything worthwhile. Plus, the chances we'll see a similar hearing on anti-Palestinian or Islamophobic sentiment is nil imo, so I was pretty cynical about the hearing itself (not the issue of antisemitism).

This is a much more eloquent way of saying what I was trying to say in my original posts

i won’t be interacting with you or your bad-faith arguments on this site any longer.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 7 December 2023 19:26 (forty-four minutes ago) link

You said that yesterday.

instead opting to smear me by saying that I don't care about antisemitism.

You didn't quote paste where I said that. Because I didn't.

felicity, I'm a little confused about invoking the House hearing. I didn't watch it, but I read a bit about it and got the impression it was a GOP-led opportunity for grandstanding and berating the presidents of three elite northeastern private universities (all three were women, notably I thought), but not in any way a genuine attempt to address antisemitism on college campuses, especially across the US and in other kinds of institutions. Am I wrong? Did you find it to be a serious effort? I'm genuinely asking as like I said I didn't watch it, but people I broadly trust dismissed it so I assumed I didn't miss anything worthwhile. Plus, the chances we'll see a similar hearing on anti-Palestinian or Islamophobic sentiment is nil imo, so I was pretty cynical about the hearing itself (not the issue of antisemitism).

― rob, Thursday, December 7, 2023 11:35 AM bookmarkflaglink

Keyes invoked it. I am in favor of people watching primary sources and drawing their own conclusions.

I would be very interested in discussing specific portions. There were House members using their allotted time to discuss incidents of Islamaphobia on campus. There were statements from House members about race segregated dorms at MIT. There was also grandstanding and bullying and poorly advised college presidents stammering and issuing Tweets revising their statements the next day.

What I did not see was what Keyes called:

Right now there's a House Hearing on Antisemitism on College Campuses and Congressmen are calling out UPenn Professors by name and saying they are members of terrorist organizations.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Tuesday, December 5, 2023 8:15 AM bookmarkflaglink

Specifically, I did not see any Congresspeople calling Professors "terrorists." Perhaps Keyes can point to who said that in the hearing.

The point I am making is that accuracy is not a left-right issue. And asking people not to brainlessly repeat whatever paraphrasing of hearsay sources of political events they feel like unless they are willing to discuss and correct as needed. History shows this kind of rumor mongering leads to bad things and I would hope ILX does not want to pour gasoline on the fire.

I think the hearing was definitely political grandstanding. It’s kinda absurd to see Republicans concerned about anti-semitism tbh considering stuff like Charlottesville. The MIT president had the best response with stating she had not heard any calls for genocide. It all seemed to hinge on the semantics of the term “intifada” which is definitely fraught for sure, but I think a lot of people on the Left are using it not to advocate for genocide against Jews. It is unfortunate imo that a lot of younger American leftists don’t have the most solid grasp of history and I feel like they are actually ignorant of how others interpret some of their terms and slogans.

The NYT article about the Students for Justice in Palestine is worth reading

rob, the testimony will go in the Congressional record. Like the January 6 hearings, it may not be immediately clear where this leads.

But a number of these schools are being investgated for civil rights violations under Title VI. So one way this might work is the testimony triggers an "actual knowledge" of discrimination or harassment that could lead to the school's defunding from federal grants and nonprofit tax exemptions if not satisfactorily addressed. These tax preferences are in the billions or tens of billions of dollars and contribute to the elite ranking of these schools along with their multibillion dollar endowments.

There was also a some weird evangelical stuff being said, and generally the politics of the GOP House are abhorrent. But focusing on that is to me like reading a gossip blog item in Gawker and thinking you know what's up. I believe it's wrong to use antisemiticsm in the US as a political football. A stopped clock, etc. Antisemitism is a problem on the left as well as the right. Attempts from eithet party to blame the other party while silently standing by and ignoring it disgust me equally.

It all seemed to hinge on the semantics of the term “intifada” which is definitely fraught for sure, but I think a lot of people on the Left are using it not to advocate for genocide against Jews. It is unfortunate imo that a lot of younger American leftists don’t have the most solid grasp of history and I feel like they are actually ignorant of how others interpret some of their terms and slogans.

― sarahell, Thursday, December 7, 2023 12:45 PM bookmarkflaglink

Thank you for this intellectually honest take. I agree.

Not sure what people on the left want to do with chants of "there is only one solution! Intifada revolution!" but a lot of them seem very naïve.

Nonprofit tax exemption is not governed by this issue. But yes, federal funding is definitely at risk, you are correct.