God Has Abandoned Us: U.S. Politics November 2023

Good morning!:

People close to the former president say they are seeking out a different type of lawyer committed to his “America First” ideology and willing to endure the personal and professional risks of association with Mr. Trump. They want lawyers in federal agencies and in the White House who are willing to use theories that more establishment lawyers would reject to advance his cause. This new mind-set matches Mr. Trump’s declaration that he is waging a “final battle” against demonic “enemies” populating a “deep state” within the government that is bent on destroying America.

Where’s the gag order?

Dickerson on Trump on Colbert last night didn't really give me much hope for the future:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA0VEa2uQj0

God's abandoned us
God's abandoned us
God's abandoned us
from a distance

The actual lyrics are just as desparing.

Toot toot toot, toot diddelyada, toot diddelyada
Toot, toot, he blows it eight to the bar
He can't blow a note if the bass and guitar isn't with him
And the company jumps when he plays reveille

I couldn’t read that NYT article due to paywall but based on Alfred’s excerpt there’s something I don’t get: what makes Trump and his people think a lawyer like that will fare any better in court? I get that a lawyer like that might be effective on TV but it seems to me that judges won’t react so kindly.

Yeah, surrounding yourself with yes men doesn't work if everyone else still says no.

he just wants the yes men. he doesn't care about the results.

its gotta be hard to find good henchmen these days. trump always wanted that gotti-style servitude from people without having to pay for it. which makes it a lot harder.

I couldn’t read that NYT article due to paywall but based on Alfred’s excerpt there’s something I don’t get: what makes Trump and his people think a lawyer like that will fare any better in court? I get that a lawyer like that might be effective on TV but it seems to me that judges won’t react so kindly.

― tobo73,

I guess they're relying on endless litigation; meanwhile the battle goes on.

Where’s the gag order?

making this the new "where's the tax returns"

he just wants the yes men. he doesn't care about the results.

it's an ego strategy not a legal strategy

yeah, its his mental state. just tell him what he wants to hear because that is all he wants to hear.

someone should convince trump to preemptively freeze his head in a block of ice, for the future.

Though I get the sense he's tried that at least once already.

That article in full:
If Trump Wins, His Allies Want Lawyers Who Will Bless a More Radical Agenda

One of the many bizarre aspects of the way this is playing out is how Trump's (I believe genuine) messianic complex is converging with his essential nature as a grifter.

Lmao

New Quinnipiac Poll with some big 👀 on RFK Jr.:
- Biden 39%
- Trump 36%
- RFK Jr. 22%

Kennedy has a plurality of independent voters (!!!): 36% for RFK Jr., 31% for Trump, 30% Biden. https://t.co/o6T1ZCngsM

— Alex Seitz-Wald (@aseitzwald) November 1, 2023

always wonder if the 'independent voters' really know what that means

'independent voters' are really republicans and libertarians (other republican voters) in disguise

they’re republicans who do their own research

So I see there's an attempt by senate Republicans going on to push through all these military promotions that have been held up by Sen. Tuberville. What exactly is needed to overcome his hold? Is it something like a 2/3 vote or can he just unilaterally stop this forever?

I read about something called a 'standing order resolution', and oddly, it was actually supposed to be Sinema's idea... an unusual procedural move, not a rules change

who actually would benefit from an RFK spoiler? he'd pull Biden voters but I guess he'd pull Trumpers too.

I don't think it's clear at this point

I think he would pull more from Trump voters, but Cornel West on the other hand...

What are they even doing, is it just to garner money and fame? At least Dean Phillips is running in the democratic primary so we can all laugh at him as a joke candidate

West and Kennedy are unhinged, insane narcissists

Good thing they don't stand a chance of winning.

that's not the problem, though

i didn't take many Nader votes to screw the pooch for Gore

RFK would absolutely pull more Trump voters

yeah, he's cousins to JFK Jr. who is part of 'the plan'

RFJ Jr. terrifies Trump's people.

he'd pull Biden voters but I guess he'd pull Trumpers too.

There has been no indication that RFK Jr. would pull one single Democratic vote. He would, however, draw pretty deeply from the crazy end of the Trump voter pool.

you haven't met my lifelong Democrat voting stepfather, a big RFK fan

it is a real fucking problem

RFK Jr. probably would get some votes that otherwise would go to Biden, but the more exposure people have to him I think the fewer of those votes he gets. Right now some number of people answering the surveys are just reacting to the name. On the other hand, he can pull some loons who know all about his anti-vaxx and general conspiracy shit and love it, and a lot more of those are people who would otherwise vote for Trump if at all. Or that's how it seems.

Not yet. This story's a couple weeks old, but it tracks with what I've heard anecdotally:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/10/rfk-jr-independent-bid-could-do-trump-more-damage-than-biden

xpost to sleeve

I sure hope so

Then God has abandoned us.

lol waht, I was agreeing w/yr article!

I mean, obviously god has foresaken us since the breakdown of the bicameral mind ;)

what if God has abandoned us

https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9780802023063-us.jpg

RFK's support is going to be a nonentity - he's weird and creepy, his only positives are (last) name recognition and anti-vaxxer cred. The former doesn't go far (if more of those people start to see him speaking) and the latter will fall back into the Trump camp assuming Big Don doesn't pull an Elvis on the shitter before next November.

I think that's true, my stepfather was a big OG Kennedy fan and that's where the uncritical support comes from, largely

(he may have changed his mind about all this, my last convo on it was in June)

support is

Elvis on the shitter

I know, it's really serious

NEW: As he visits Minnesota, local Muslim leaders say they will "abandon Biden."

The president had no meetings planned with local Muslim leaders while on the ground in one of the U.S. hubs of Muslim life and was met by protests organized by CAIR.https://t.co/SxX5b6Wfsa

— Alex Seitz-Wald (@aseitzwald) November 1, 2023

wtf else would he expect?

Trump pledges to reimpose Muslim 'travel ban'

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231029-trump-pledges-to-reimpose-muslim-travel-ban-at-jewish-gathering

lol sleeve

i don't think arab americans are going to vote for trump over biden; but not voting at all is going to hurt biden's chances in some places.

otm, I absolutely understand not wanting to vote for Biden, even more after the past few weeks, but I fear that people choosing not to vote is going to help Trump more than anything else.

Biden can fix that with one weird trick

Absolutely, but do we honestly think he'll do that soon enough? I mean, it's too late as it is, but I'm skeptical he will move meaningfully on this.

Don't worry, he's going to rural America to hear concerns from voters.

Oh I don’t think he’ll move meaningfully, or any other way, on it

xpost

It’s very simple, the US supports our democratic allies in their fight against terrorism

as monstrous as Biden's statements have been it's not exactly out of line with what the Dem party as a whole is saying. a small handful of Congresswomen have taken a stance saying war crimes are bad and for that they've been getting called terrorist sympathizers from both sides. it does seem with this recent "stand up to Islamophobia" thing the White House is doing they're at least aware that this is hurting them, not that I expect them to do anything about it

USAID seems to say we gave Israel $3.3B with a B for military aid and $8m of economic aid
https://www.foreignassistance.gov/
cool infographic you can parse in several ways.
disbursements to west bank/gaza $110m, you can then see how they believe it's apportioned by sectors, e.g. $48.36m for "Emergency Response"

as monstrous as Biden's statements have been it's not exactly out of line with what the Dem party as a whole is saying.

Fetterman is not exactly surprising in this. Didn’t he allow AIPAC to edit his campaign platform during the primary?

https://apnews.com/article/military-nominations-senate-tuberville-holds-0c3a5441fb94887fdb0e1b1b65a399f5

Sam Bankman-Fried was just convicted on seven charges of fraud and conspiracy. So why does it feel like Joe Biden is the one who’s going to jail?

— New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) November 3, 2023

Meanwhile, in the how's the "not Biden" campaign going?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/02/dean-phillips-town-hall-new-hampshire/

Speaking in a theater here less than a week after announcing his campaign, Phillips faced screaming and profanity from voters disappointed in his response to a question on a cease-fire in the Middle East. He was accused of gaslighting the lone Black woman in attendance, who was escorted out of the event — but not before a handful of other attendees walked out of the room.

Around an hour into the meandering town hall here Wednesday, 23-year-old Democrat Atong Chan rose to ask Phillips to support a cease-fire in the Israel-Gaza war.

Phillips blinked rapidly as Chan asked her question, and then began his response by turning around the question to ask her about how she feels about the Israelis killed by Hamas in the conflict.

“I’m going to answer each of your questions, but I have to tell you, I took note that you didn’t mention — how do you feel about the Israeli babies? And moms and dads and grandmas and hostages in Gaza who were brutally murdered? I just want to hear, before I answer your question, if that empathy is across humanity or only for Palestinians right now?” Phillips responded to Chan, a Manchester resident.

Phillips and Chan then debated whether she was being antagonistic, and when she said she hoped he would change his position on the cease-fire, the event devolved into a shouting match.

“They’re U.S. bombs; that’s the f---ing problem,” chimed in a man from across the room. A person seated in the same row as Chan shouted out that Phillips had not answered her question, and said, “You just gaslit her instead,” before getting up and walking out of the event.

“I gaslit?” Phillips asked, as more voices chimed in, “You did,” before Chan was escorted out of the town hall by three staffers. She accused Phillips of not caring about Gazan children, and he again turned around the issue to focus on Israelis.

Earlier in the event, Chan could be heard saying, “Is it?” in response to Phillips saying that Rep. James E. Clyburn’s assertion that he is disrespecting Black voters by focusing on New Hampshire is sad and wrong. Democrats changed their presidential nominating calendar to have South Carolina lead the nominating contest in 2024, instead of Iowa and New Hampshire, as part of a push for more diversity.

Chan said Phillips’s response on a cease-fire felt smug, arrogant and flippant. As she decried Democrats not doing enough, in her view, to prevent more Palestinian deaths, a staffer for Phillips opened the door of his red, white and blue campaign bus and walked directly behind her — not heeding the visibly upset Chan — to let Phillips’s dog, Henry, relieve himself nearby.

“I’m a Black person; sitting out would be one of the hardest things for me to ever do. There are people who died for my right to vote,” Chan said through tears minutes later. “I feel like I’m being put in a very precarious situation because I never want to disrespect my ancestors. … I’m gonna have to vote for somebody, and it’s going to be hard, because everyone who is running right now, they’re all not people I would ever want to vote for.”

Mark Meadows’ publisher is suing him for lying in his own book lol

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4292647-mark-meadows-sued-by-book-publisher-over-false-election-claims/

“I’m going to answer each of your questions, but I have to tell you, I took note that you didn’t mention — how do you feel about the Israeli babies? And moms and dads and grandmas and hostages in Gaza who were brutally murdered? I just want to hear, before I answer your question, if that empathy is across humanity or only for Palestinians right now?” Phillips responded to Chan, a Manchester resident.”

When it’s going great

Some elections coming up

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/04/10-biggest-races-election-day-00125386

Fingers crossed

“One ⁦@GlennYoungkin⁩ adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity, predicted a ‘massacre,’ saying the state’s center-left orientation and views on abortion would be too much for Youngkin to overcome.” https://t.co/e1Ra9wklUq

— Jeff E. Schapiro (@RTDSchapiro) November 4, 2023

As a newly minted Virginian, my first act is helping him eat shit.

I don't get to vote against my shitass governor (like myself, a transplanted New Jerseyan) until next November, but I'm ready.

I'm trying not to let myself feel too much hope about MS-GOV. Presley has been campaigning hard and Reeves has been hiding out hoping the (R) will be enough.

I hope the Democrats get out the vote efforts are more thorough in Mississippi than they were recently in Louisiana. In Louisiana too many Dems stayed home , allowing a right wing extremist to become governor with only a small percentage of registered voters

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/mike-johnson-son-monitor-porn-intake-covenant-eyes-1234870634/

Evangelicals are all insane.

“Accountability”

I expect his home looks very clean and tastefully decorated in a style that all but shouts "no humans live here".

“And no one beats off here, that’s for darn sure, yessiree.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc7EUmqaR88

its wild that there's only one elected Republican who it feels like you can even remotely relate to right now and it's Chris Christie. you think the high profile ones are bad and then when some random dude from the party starts making news they always wind up being one of the weirdest motherfuckers on the planet.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

1. Two members of @Moms4Liberty have reported several Florida librarians to law enforcement, claiming the librarians committed felonies by distributing pornography to minors.

Popular Information obtained the video from the Santa Rosa County Sheriff's Office.

WATCH: pic.twitter.com/Korty5aoVs

— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) November 6, 2023

(Dunno the best way to display this thread for the twitter-averse.)

Here's the write-up on it from Legum's website:

https://popular.info/p/moms-for-liberty-members-call-the

The media seems to do a poor job of pointing out that these lunatics define "pronography" in a very different way from the Supreme Court, or, indeed, normal people.

definition? i know pornographers when i see them at the checkout desk

yeah Neko Case stops by sometimes

Tapley told Popular Information that any book that has a "sex scene" is pornography and not "appropriate for minors." She did acknowledge that there may be exceptions for "extreme classics."

And Tapley will determine what the "extreme classics" are, I'm sure.

Lady Chatterley: Extreme Classic

I would like to round up every single member of this fascist loon cult and read to them the most disgusting books I can imagine— I’ll begin with Guyotat’s Eden Eden Eden.

I bet these people are still talking about rainbow parties

XTreme Classics sponsored by Surge

display this thread for the twitter-averse

https://nitter.net/JuddLegum/status/1721521769134125092

I would like to round up every single member of this fascist loon cult and read to them the most disgusting books I can imagine

naw i reckon this is all projection and these fuds are into the sickest shit you could imagine, eg https://newrepublic.com/post/176676/mike-johnson-son-monitoring-porn-intake-national-security-threat

Tapley will determine what the "extreme classics" are, I'm sure.

Already decided. It's the Bible with its numerous sex scenes. No others.

Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat is a musical porn

"dreamcoat" being slang for condom, of course

creamcoat

Amazing unicolor

I still just keep coming back to this incredulity that anybody is fighting about library books, when every kid has a smart phone. And can easily Google celebrity lookalike gang bangs or whatever they want. Just so utterly divorced from reality.

Not if they have the Mike Johnson “Covenant Eyes” spyware app installed!

These women can't possibly think they can police all of this. Which leads me to the conclusion that this is all just a way of stirring shit.

Look for the GOP to push the Supreme Court to roll back the landmark Some Brat v Their Parents decision that allowed kids to have smart phones in the first place.

https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/kelvin-keef-smut-busters.jpg

I keep humming Covenant Eyes to the tune of "Hungry Eyes."

Any idea what the book in question is?

I think it's mentioned in the article, some benign YA fantasy novel.

3. The "porn" at issue is actually a YA novel, Storm and Fury. The book is mostly about humans and gargoyles fighting demons.

There are a few passages w/sexual themes, but it's recommended by the School Library Journal, Barnes & Noble, and others for high school students pic.twitter.com/w8sXVfAu4j

— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) November 6, 2023

Wait, weren't Storm and Fury those pro-Trump shills?

The cops must have rolled their eyes so hard they detached their retinas.

xpost no, it's the upcoming MCU movie starring Halle Berry and Samuel Jackson

i support the attempts to get formulaic YA literature off the shelves and people reading real books

as if one leads to the other

i support the attempts to get formulaic YA literature off the shelves and people reading real books

Yeah, this is the thing — I don't support the psycho anti-"porn" lady, but I also don't support people reading YA fiction, which is absolutely garbage, just not the specific kind of garbage she thinks it is.

y'all never read Henry James' gargoyle novel

Let's ban YA books for non-conservative reasons!

an abundance of trashy novels is hardly a new thing

These women can't possibly think they can police all of this.

oh they are dumb as fuck

Fair point, I think they’re the ones who approvingly quoted Hitler recently.

Mein Kampf didn't have any dirty bits, did it?

Mein Kampf (Dirty Bit)

Mein Kampf gegen die schmutizge Teile

Girl,are you Poland? Because I'd like to invade you.

Hey I just met you
And this is crazy
Here's my border
So come invade me

Are we really getting het up about young adults reading young adult fiction? Come the fuck on

YA fiction gets kids reading, and I am all for it without judgement on content. In fact I’ve seen a lot of YA fiction that brings a lot to the table.

"flowers of indie rock womanhood" but it's YA fiction

I feel like there's bizarrely little attention being paid to the fact that there are a lot of elections that matter tomorrow! The last big election day before November 2024! Virginia and NJ legislatures, Kentucky gov, Ohio abortion referendum -- lotta stuff out there!

Dems are poised to take Virginia's House of Delegates and keep the State Senate, and embarrass our "affable, fleece-vest-wearing" billionaire basement church Governor.

Feeling good?

Mostly city council and mayoral stuff here. Too bad I won't vote for the Dem mayoral candidate because she supports building a basketball stadium in the center of the city, ruining the historic (and THRIVING) Chinatown next door. In fact, the Republican is arguably more to the left than the Dem! https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/10/27/candidates-clash-crime-sixers-arena-debate

I voted as I always do: old-school, in-person, on election day, pre-dawn, school gym, right when they open, fill in the ovals, get the frickin sticker.

Yes I know there are other ways to do it but I don't want to give Youngkin's assholes a single solitary reason to contest (or accidentally "forget") my vote.

Feeling good?

https://www.rush.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/band_geddy_13.jpg

Taking sides: Giddy vs. Geddy vs. Gibby

https://img.texasmonthly.com/2021/09/butthole-surfers-texas-band-pepper.jpg?auto=compress&crop=faces&fit=fit&fm=webp&h=0&ixlib=php-3.3.1&q=45&w=1170

"Hold my beer." - Gabby Hayes

Gabby Giffords, Gabby Douglas, and Yo Gabba Gabba have entered the chat

Are we really getting het up about young adults reading young adult fiction? Come the fuck on

― the new drip king (DJP), Monday, November 6, 2023 7:06 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

What happened to this message board? We used to take Ashlee Simpson records seriously and now we want to ban young adult novels?

i want to ban young adult navels

sorry but I'm finding it all but impossible to not post "You left out the g cause the g ain't in you"

she bans the tin drum

The line at the polling place just off William & Mary’s campus is out the door and only growing.

Most important thing about the line: it’s all young people who are registering to vote today — this doesn’t even include the line of students who were pre-registered! pic.twitter.com/pqN30JLvvD

— Eve Levenson (@eve_levenson) November 7, 2023

The new silent generation?

Too bad I won't vote for the Dem mayoral candidate because she supports building a basketball stadium in the center of the city, ruining the historic (and THRIVING) Chinatown next door.

my friends in philly feel the same way; she's also pro stop and frisk.

xpost Silent, but deadly.

They should never have threatened to take away these kids' YA novels.

Andy Beshear remains governor of Kentucky.

It's not called yet though, is it? I really like Andy Beshear, hope he wins

Kentuckian here: Polls only closed 40 minutes ago in the CST part of the state. The race hasn't been called and will continue to skew closer as more W KY results come in.

The Hill is calling it for Beshear

Looks pretty good in Ohio

people have been panicking about 2024 polls lately so this is definitely welcome news

I've seen enough: in a victory for the pro-choice side, Ohio Issue 1, a measure to establish a right to an abortion in the state constitution, passes.

— Dave Wasserman (@Redistrict) November 8, 2023

👍🏽

Yeah, I'm willing to stop stress-eating now. 79% reporting, and Beshear's up by more than 78K. That'll hold.

good job America

Cautious optimism here in VA. Every individual candidate I'm watching is comfortably ahead, and the overall trend looks promising. Ds will hold the Senate and (fingers crossed) have a good shot at flipping House control.

Happy about Beshear! And based on Ohio I feel like Dems in '24 need to just basically be "ABORTION and WEED! Any questions?"

In my blue-dot Southern Appalachian city, a leftist Black woman incumbent appears set to win reelection to City Council over a white male Republican developer who literally outspent her 10:1. (This despite her being the biggest thorn in the side of our center-left mayor, who I don't think would have been sad to see her go. Tho the mayor was also just easily reelected, so I think a lot of people voted for both of them.)

Interesting times.

One thing I got to wonder about these polling on how Trump is 'winning' over Biden is who the flack is answering these things. As a registered Democrat in KY who votes every election, I got absolutely bombarded with home calls for polls and mailers. I told more than a handful of these clowns calling to f'k off, it's none of their bizness. I got to think in a cell phone info. crush world, this is more the default than answering their BS.

Tiny American flags for some, abortion on demand for all!

I hope with the legal weed in Ohio they start selling it in those old style state liquor stores they used to have up there that used to look like license branches.

I'm sure somewhere on WLW- Bill Cunningham is probably going apoplectic on weed becoming recreational. I'm sure the crazy rightwingers in Ohio will try to f'k it up somehow. They got some serious right wing Aholes in that state.

Decision Desk HQ projects Democrats win control in the Virginia House of Delegates.#DecisionMade: 11:05pm EST

Follow more results here: https://t.co/8sug2Xq9ic pic.twitter.com/3nODVnFGZO

— Decision Desk HQ (@DecisionDeskHQ) November 8, 2023

Rashida Tlaib has been officially censured with the help of 22 democrats. It's pretty despicable they'd jump on board with this nonsense.

In other news, a democrat (fwiw, a former Republican) flipped one deep-red NJ General Assembly seat for the first time in decades. Further perspective: it was also a Trump +35 (!) district.

Great Ohio neww

https://thelakewoodscoop.com/news/breaking-rabbi-avi-schnall-projected-to-win-30th-district-race-in-huge-upset/

Great news for America tonight, it seems the only time we lost our minds was in the year 2016.

Rashida Tlaib has been officially censured with the help of 22 democrats.

Fuck this and them

Which 22 Democrats?

Suzy, they’re here. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4298890-22-democrats-censure-tlaib-over-israel-criticism/amp/

What’s the deal with Ken Buck

I think he cashed in his chips when he got death threats for not supporting Jim Jordan's bid for Speaker.

Face eating tigers, etc.

Dems maintain control and make small pick ups in the assembly and senate here in NJ.Moms for Liberty school board candidates for the most part lost their bids.

Sad that NJ ppl hate liberty and moms

Moms for Liberty school board candidates for the most part lost their bids.

Good.

I don't think people understand the massacre Republicans suffered down-ballot in PA tonight.

Obviously, PA SC was the focus and Allegheny had specific local factors, but Dems swept almost everything in winnable races from school boards, commissioners, etc. Especially in SEPA.

— Joshua Smithley (@blockedfreq) November 8, 2023

Shout out to my mom in SEPA

Josh’s mom OTM

I keep thinking about what is behind the concerns about Biden's age. Yes, all things being equal, I would prefer a president who was younger, and I think the elderliness of Congress is to blame for many of its failures. But as I've said before, in a general election, I'm usually voting for the policies of the Democratic Party vis a vis the policies of the Republican Party, so Biden's personal flaws don't play much of a role for me. So why does his age seem to be such a factor for so many?

I'm guessing a lot of people see all the problems facing the country and look at Biden and don't see someone who is dealing with them in a visibly energetic or forceful fashion. He's not angry, he's concerned. He doesn't yell, he whispers. He stumbles over his words. He can be charming at times but mostly in a leisurely, old-fashioned (grandfatherly?) way.

If you want as president someone who will project a strong image and inspire people, as Obama and Trump did for those who voted for them, then Biden is bound to disappoint. I get that. But it seems a mistake to put so much stock in personality over platform and policies.

Also, it annoys me that the conversation around Biden's age is so often framed around whether he is physically and mentally capable of doing the job. Not that those concerns are without merit, but it seems to me like that's not really what it's about.

First Somali-American mayor!

Nadia Mohamed elected in St Louis Park MN, a first-ring Minneapolis suburb which I am especially proud to call my home town on days like these.

If you look at the results, the American people love abortion, drugs, transpeople and, possibly, porn. It's a fundamental decent country despite a rancid elite.

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) November 8, 2023

Josh's mom loves abortion, drugs, transpeople and, possibly, porn

Josh’s mom OTM

― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:23 AM (twenty-nine minutes ago)

Most people I know who won’t vote for Biden have little to say about how old he is, but a lot to say that’s pretty in line with the Nolan piece that J0rdan posted above.

In 2020, I was going to vote early a few days after a young man in a mental health crisis was shot and killed by cops mere blocks from my house. There were police helicopters circling protests that entire week, and neither Biden nor Harris had anything to say except hedging bullshit, toothless comments about police accountability. I was going to vote for him, and then decided not to based on what I was seeing that day and what I had seen over the summer.

Images of dead children, of children who have pissed their pants and are covered in rubble dust and are shaking in fear involuntarily and are bleeding from their heads— these images stay with people. And Biden’s refusal to do anything to shift course and to simply “voice concern” about a second Nakba approaching genocidal proportions, will rightly keep many people I know from voting for him. Fuck him, and fuck all the politicians who are aiding and abetting this slaughter.

xpost Moms For Libertine

I keep thinking about what is behind the concerns about Biden's age. Yes, all things being equal, I would prefer a president who was younger, and I think the elderliness of Congress is to blame for many of its failures. But as I've said before, in a general election, I'm usually voting for the policies of the Democratic Party vis a vis the policies of the Republican Party, so Biden's personal flaws don't play much of a role for me. So why does his age seem to be such a factor for so many?

I am coming to the conclusion that the polls indicating that All Americans are Very Concerned about Joe Biden's age are a bunch of horseshit carefully crafted by news organizations in need of content. Election results are what matter, and last night's election results (sure, sure, "Biden wasn't on the ballot") make a much stronger argument than the New York Times or CNN calling a thousand people who still have — and pick up — land lines. Honestly, the HBO documentary Telemarketers should cause people to permanently discount any political poll. Because you know who's answering poll questions? The same idiots who sign their Social Security checks over to "Tony" from the PBA because he sounds so nice and honest on the phone.

Last night's results are def a shot in the arm after the polling misery, tho I guess those elections are harder to game than the general, and don't involve the skewed electoral college.

sorry, i know I'm harshing the mellow

ILX slogan

An interesting result from Montana; a 28-year-old was just elected mayor of Bozeman, though he won't take office till 2026 because of that city's bizarre rules. Bozeman is, I believe, the most expensive city in Montana to live in; it's about $2000 for a two-bedroom apartment in a faceless housing development.

Big takeaway from yesterday for the GOP is not a need for self-reflection but “we need to get better at cheating”. And I’m sure they will.

I saw a clip of Santorum on Newsmax saying a democracy is no way to run a country.

An all-time "quiet part out loud" moment in American politics

Rick Santorum is upset that Americans had an opportunity to vote on the things they actually care about. @atrupar.pic.twitter.com/3EiLJUNHtr

— The Intellectualist (@highbrow_nobrow) November 8, 2023

Moms For Libertine

lol

Sign me up!

Dems should find out how sexy universal healthcare is.

depends how you feel about latex

I don’t know about you lot but I’m pretty goddamn happy this morning. And I don’t even like weed all that much! I don’t even own a marijuana.

Republicans are way mad that Dems own the wedge issues now

I saw someone joke that the GOP was reduced to "at least we held on the governorship of Mississippi."

oh no, condolences WmC

I'm too sexy for my representative democracy.

xp oh well -- I didn't have any hopes up. I wonder what Brandon Presley is going to do for the next few years.

An interesting snippet from MSNBC this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OZyCeFwkG8

Dems should find out how sexy universal healthcare is.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:44 AM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Oh God, I'm so hard (at work because I had access to free preventative healthcare and didn't need to go on disability)

knights731
22 minutes ago

What's more frightening is the idea that people are more concerned about terminating pregnancies than the sustainability of our country and freedom.

I am coming to the conclusion that the polls indicating that All Americans are Very Concerned about Joe Biden's age are a bunch of horseshit carefully crafted by news organizations in need of content.

OTM. NYT (which I subscribe to just to get access to their archives) has run a dozen articles about this, and I've seen only one article I can recall about Trump's age. And even that was an absurd soft-pedal: "How Trump’s Verbal Slips Could Weaken His Attacks on Biden’s Age". Verbal slips? He can't string four coherent sentences together. His nonsensical rambling is further downplayed in the piece as "his usual freewheeling style," "an unorthodox speaking style" and "his usual discursive nature". And for years, thanks to "editing for clarity", most accounts of his rallies and speeches simply select the more lucid quotes and exclude the bizarre ramblings, giving the reader the impression Trump is more sensical than he actually is.

And I say this as someone who definitely wishes Dem leaders were younger. It just rankles me that this is an issue when the other candidate is at about a fifth grade level, mentally. Democrats should just run some Vic Berger clips of Trump speaking as campaign ads to counter this age nonsense.

interesting snippet

The facts were all there and I love how encouraging the election results were, but the way the message was delivered was as homogenized as the canned music in a supermarket. Dems are still bad at cutting through people's "this is just more political bullshit" sensors, even when their accomplishments are real, not bullshit.

Rick Santorum calls abortion & marijuana "very sexy & secret sauce" for Democrats, as opposed to the not so secret sauce named after him.

Meantime, among the adults:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-team-waging-gross-campaign-humiliate-desantis-1234872514/

We aren’t gonna be done with him until he’s fat again,” a crude reference to the Florida governor’s weight loss.

In the past month alone, the Trump campaign, or Trump himself, have also gone after DeSantis for his fashion sense (“Ron’s heels are high, his hopes have never been lower”); his manhood (“[Ron] is now a political eunuch. He’s the last person who should be talking about balls”); his brain (“completely fried and inoperable”); his allegedly bizarre eating habits (“stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tenders”); and much else.

sick burns tbh

or just sick

Where else is he supposed to keep his chicken tenders? Pants pockets are too narrow.

Hm, Trump who wears lifts in his shoes, has been teased for the size of his hands, and subsists on McDonald's mocks DeSantis about his heels, his manhood, and his "bizarre eating habits."

I am coming to the conclusion that the polls indicating that All Americans are Very Concerned about Joe Biden's age are a bunch of horseshit carefully crafted by news organizations in need of content.

Eh don't get swept away by the moment. I'm super happy about yesterday's results too, and to me they point to a solid platform the Dems can and should run on next year, and that platform (plus Trump's despicability and the general loathesomeness and incompetence of the GOP at large) could help compensate for Biden's weaknesses.

But Biden's weaknesses are abundant. He's a very very weak incumbent. He is not popular. That's not one poll or a few polls, it's widespread and consistent. I do not know of another incumbent president with his combination of numbers who has been reelected. That doesn't mean it's not a winnable election, I think it's very winnable. But I think it's winnable more despite Biden than because of him, and that's just how it is.

The modern GOP, ladies and gentlemen

He's a very very weak incumbent. He is not popular. That's not one poll or a few polls, it's widespread and consistent.

Yes, but...polls are clearly bullshit. They collate the inchoate, confused opinions of a small, ill-informed and unrepresentative slice of the electorate. They're bullshit.

In news from where I used to live, reliably Democratic commuter towns in NJ are going Republican, at least on the local level.

Hard to know what to make of that. The candidates are 130 votes apart.

There's always a disconnect between your local guy/issue and the national party/leadership - it used to benefit the GOP when they could win socially liberal areas with a normie businessman who wasn't burning crosses or trying to have the school librarian sent to Gitmo. Now it's benefitting Democrats, the local candidates are running against psychos and supported by popular ballot issues.

yes but it's in a district Trump won by 35 points in 2016 aiui?

xp

Polls are deeply flawed but imo they're not meaningless. Especially when you see the same things consistently month in and month out (like Biden's disapproval ratings). And also we've already run the Biden-Trump scenario once and the results were somewhat less than reassuring. It was really close! (At least, in the dumb Electoral College, which is sadly the thing that matters.) Even with no polls at all, if all you had to go on was the 2020 data, it would look like another tossup at best.

Wonder if, had people somehow known Trump was a lock for the 2024 nomination no matter what, Dems would've held the House in the mid-terms.

Who didn't think Trump would be a lock for the 2024 nomination?!

When DeSantis won big in 2022, there was a moment in which he seemed to have eclipsed Trump.

If you were a political reporter.

An interesting quote from bluesky:

"I feel like the last decade was liberals slowly realizing that lawyers and judges are not actually impartial practitioners of the law, and now they need to learn - slowly, so slowly - that mainstream media outlets are not impartial observers of reality"

After midterms I thought all the money would start pooling towards DeSantis, up until I actually heard the guy speak

i actually wonder if trump's scarred-earth approach to desantis is weakening ron in his own state, just completely wrecking his strongman image, while perhaps paradoxically causing bad blood towards trump among hardcore desantis supporters who might therefore sit out 2024? idk i feel like florida is potentially deeply weird for next november. and i'm not sure RDS is the type of guy to suck it up and throw his full weight behind DJT after all this.

Yeah, I don't remember anyone anywhere saying DeSantis was more likely than Trump but headline writers

i actually wonder if trump's scarred-earth approach to desantis is weakening ron in his own state, just completely wrecking his strongman image, while perhaps paradoxically causing bad blood towards trump among hardcore desantis supporters who might therefore sit out 2024? idk i feel like florida is potentially deeply weird for next november. and i'm not sure RDS is the type of guy to suck it up and throw his full weight behind DJT after all this.

― omar little,

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/22/desantis-florida-republicans-governor-elections-00117514

Feel like any time Trump goes after someone it wrecks their career so who knows maybe this is it for him

My belief is that Biden’s “unpopularity” is largely (but not entirely!) an artifact of today’s ultra-polarized political environment. You can no longer rely on a president from one party to have even a token level of approval from the other party. So the ceiling is now 50%. So if they are a little soft with their party or among “independents”, it will appear like historic unpopularity. And then when the media makes a big deal out of it because they want a big newsworthy thing that makes headlines and clicks, it drives the conversation and influences people’s poll responses (the bandwagon jumpers who want to be on board with the latest popular sentiments). I’m not saying Biden doesn’t have flaws and hasn’t made terrible mistakes that have hurt many people. But I am saying that his historic unpopularity is not isolated to Biden himself, but is at least somewhat a product of the times. We saw this with GWB (second term), we saw this with Obama and of course Trump. The political environment got much more polarized with Trump’s rise, and Biden is our first post-Trump president. It’s not like we have a lot of historical data for comparison in the post-Trump world. And I’m sure we can expect this trend to continue with future presidents.

re: biden's age, i'm actually on-board with handwringing over the gerontocracy! not super-thrilled about newsom being the "fresh young face" -- who else would be in contention?

Whitmer!

So the ceiling is now 50%.

Try 40%.

Try 40%.

"Fuck all these assholes"/"Vote? Fuck that" wins every election.

Yeah I don't think yesterday was a big polling miss, I think more the national head to head presidential polls are coloring a view of the national political environment that's clearly not accurate. https://t.co/Pv4LT22VEJ

— Chris Hayes (@chrislhayes) November 8, 2023

^^ agree w/that

the R dog finally caught the abortion car, and it's "find out" time

i do think the polls will skew more in Biden's favor over time but it does depend a lot on how well he navigates things currently. and also i can't imagine trump becoming increasingly hinged and un-isolated.

Take it from DeSantis' cold, stale chicken fingers...

It has turned out that support for warcriming, having a loser son, failing at student loan gifts, and being older than earth are terrible for yr poll numbers no matter how stable it goes.

yeah that must be it

it's just great that this description basically could be applied to either of our future leaders

(that is the joke)

It's wild to look at George W. Bush's approval ratings, which fluctuated from 90% after 9/11 to 25% at the end of his presidency. Even Obama had a 31-point difference between his high and low points (38-69%), and he frequently swung back and forth between net approval and net disapproval over the course of his presidency. For both of them, approval ratings were highly responsive to what was going on in the news at the time. People

Trump, meanwhile, had only a 15-point difference (34-49%) during his entire four years in office, despite all the chaos that came out of the White House. And while Biden's approval started at 57%, it's stayed within a mere 7 points (37-44%) over the past two years. People are no longer changing their minds based on events; they're making up their minds early and digging in their heels.

(Those are all Gallup polls, fwiw.)

clearly the way to higher approval ratings is to stage another national disaster

i vote for dinosaur invasion

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warehouse-13-artifact-database/images/9/9a/Fullcabinboard.gif/revision/latest?cb=20170330230817

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warehouse-13-artifact-database/images/9/9a/Fullcabinboard.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20170330230817

oh ffs

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thecabininthewoods/images/2/29/Cabinboard_span.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/398?cb=20120421035619

I give up

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/thecabininthewoods/images/4/48/Tumblr_m8wg5dW2RD1qbvj0oo1_1280.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20121008042721

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warehouse-13-artifact-database/images/9/9a/Fullcabinboard.gif

would start pooling towards DeSantis, up until I actually heard the guy speak squeak

There’s still a chance Donnie keels over before November. Ron’s playing the long game.

don't rule out Donnie winning the nomination despite being dead

Weekend at Donnie's

also i can't imagine trump becoming increasingly hinged and un-isolated

Trump's quandary over the next year will be threading the needle between refusing to play the media game (I don't expect him to participate in one single, solitary debate between now and next Election Day) and needing to be at the center of attention every single minute ever (I also expect Fox News and others to routinely broadcast his town halls).

On the marijuana front:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/11/8/2204458/-A-majority-of-America-will-have-access-to-legal-marijuana-following-Ohio-election

The accompanying map is pretty interesting to me -- literally only one state, South Carolina, is now bordered by states that also fully ban it. (This had already been the case but it leaps out at me further here.)

https://images.dailykos.com/images/1245001/story_image/MarijuanaLegalStatusStateCartogram.png?1699463891

i'm not sure RDS is the type of guy to suck it up and throw his full weight behind DJT after all this.

I feel like one thing I learned from 2016 is they are all, every one of them, exactly that type of fucking guy

After midterms I thought all the money would start pooling towards DeSantis, up until I actually heard the guy speak

QFT, I was developing some level of anxiety about DeSantis based on his successes and his news coverage until a I saw a clip of him whining at the press, at which point I realized he’s a Bobby Jindal variant

literally only one state, South Carolina, is now bordered by states that also fully ban it

Georgia's gotta just be a matter of time now.

at which point I realized he’s a Bobby Jindal variant

Jindelta, if you will

OmicRon iirc

Hell I'm pretty sure a legalize-weed referendum would pass in Tennessee if it could get to the ballot. But our legislature did away with citizen-initiated referendums, they can only come through the Legislature.

Jaw-dropped at some of the Gen Z turnout rates from last night's election compared to 2021.

—Temple University: 523% HIGHER
—Penn State: 300% HIGHER
—College of William & Mary: 128% HIGHER

interesting if true

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-friends-struggles-to-explain-abortion-rights-election-results-a-majority-of-americans-dont-like-the-rape-and-incest-thing/

are state dems running on a legalize marijuana platform in texas? or do they hate winning?

That Mediaite clip, I almost never see anything from Fox News but when I do I'm always surprised at how shoddy and amateurish it seems compared to CNN or network news. All goes to the exceedingly low bar in conservative media, where ideological commitment matters more than any form of competence.

Law-enforcement and penal system stanning is the big hurdle to weed legalization in Texas.

are state dems running on a legalize marijuana platform in texas? or do they hate winning?

https://www.texasdemocrats.org/media/media/release-take-texas-higher-its-time-to-legalize-marijuana

Texas Democrats don't hate winning, Texas voters hate Democrats

Voters outside urban areas.

Georgia authorized medical use a couple years ago but the implementation is completely fucked up.

TX gop needs a cut taxes with weed initiative i think they'd go for it

Abbott, shitbird that he is, is pretty reasonable when it comes to legalization.

QFT, I was developing some level of anxiety about DeSantis based on his successes and his news coverage until a I saw a clip of him whining at the press, at which point I realized he’s a Bobby Jindal variant

― the new drip king (DJP), Wednesday, November 8, 2023 1:28 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

He’s like an anti-charisma zone

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.c60db0955b7d16d93693c9648a0845ab?rik=9bOz1JUs2iQx3Q&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

If legalization in Texas were put on a ballot it would win by a massive margin, Texans of all political stripes love weed. Don't know that it would help democrats though...

The most interesting bit of the Fox & Friends clip is the part where the female host gets completely fed up with the talking points and baldly states “I’m not putting my 9 year old daughter through that. Sorry.”

Well yeah, she lives in a state with legal abortion. QED.

Well also from her tone of voice and demeanor, she seemed to be 100% fed up with the bullshit and couldn’t parrot the talking points at that moment. It felt like a glimpse of a relatable person, which I seldom if ever get from my limited exposure to Fox & Friends.

Any word on whether Trump has called DeSantis "Puss in Boots" yet? Would be a real failure in childish name calling if he hasn't

i'm assuming that the TX GOP oppose legalization and that it's a layup issue for democracts. is the problem that they can't get it on the ballot? or that the GOP would support it if it actually got on the ballot?

weed is the one thing the GOP has no problem taxing the shit out of

Georgia authorized medical use a couple years ago but the implementation is completely fucked up.

south dakota passed recreational weed several years ago and the governor just scuttled it. i'm surprised to see that there is even medical weed there; I'm not sure where you get it.

I like weed

pretty sad if the big MSO's can't even bribe their way into a legal state

Georgia is apparently about to permit pharmacies to sell medical THC. Well, they are accepting applications, anyway.

Comment I just encountered on a FB thread that had to be shared: “Who’s gonna tell Mike Johnson about his son’s burner phone?”

i'm assuming that the TX GOP oppose legalization and that it's a layup issue for democracts. is the problem that they can't get it on the ballot? or that the GOP would support it if it actually got on the ballot?

The problem is that no one in TX pays attention to the Democrats and what they want/stand for/etc.. The Q rating on statewide candidates who aren't named Beto is zero. It's a catch-22 they need the platform to win but they'd need to pull off a miracle win in a statewide race (or recapture the Lege) to get anyone to pay attention to the platform.

mike johnson will prevail by the power of the lord. tax cuts!

Additionally, Texas doesn't have citizen referendums. This week we voted on 14 Constitutional amendments, but those come from the legislature, which is controlled by the GOP. So neither Texas Democratic voters nor the Texas Democratic Party have any means of getting something like marijuana legalization "on the ballot" until they control the legislature.

ah. Thank you Milo and f hazel.

I almost never see anything from Fox News but when I do I'm always surprised at how shoddy and amateurish it seems compared to CNN

I don't know if everyone's like this, but whenever I see a clip of Judge Jeanine ranting on that Fox roundtable (muted), she is almost compulsively talking to and looking at the camera rather than the people with whom she is ostensibly speaking. I find it super distracting.

Curious to see if this D.C.-area brothel bust goes anywhere:

The Justice Department said it is investigating numerous people who may have paid for sex, including “politicians, high tech and pharmaceutical executives, doctors, military officers, government contractors that possess security clearances, professors, lawyers, scientists and accountants.”

Or if it the investigation just disappears

Be great if Johnson was the first one on that list.

J.D. Vance got the memo I guess. But a federal 15-week ban is a loser from both ends of the spectrum.

J.D. Vance, the Ohio GOP senator, says Republicans need to shift their approach on abortion and begin to embrace federal legislation -- namely a 15-week ban with exceptions.

"We can't give into the idea that the federal Congress has no role in this matter," he told us

— Manu Raju (@mkraju) November 8, 2023

"my constituents overwhelming voted to support the right to safe abortion, so it's time for Congress to embrace a federal ban"

yeah, that's how politics work, good luck with that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Street_scandal

The lesser bans used to poll well but I wonder if people have been radicalized against them completely because of the GOP's insanity and open desire to roll on toward banning birth control and such.

overturn of Roe vs Wade was a really shocking catalyst... very much a 'dog catches car' moment for the GOP

Ohohoho, this is rich:

After a particularly disappointing night of election results for Republicans, former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) lamented “pure democracies,” where major decisions are left up to voters rather than their elected officials.

“Thank goodness that most of the states in this country don’t allow you to put everything on the ballot, because pure democracies are not the way to run a country,” Santorum said Tuesday night on Newsmax.

“You put very sexy things like abortion and marijuana on the ballot, and a lot of young people come out and vote,” Santorum said.

Nothing sexier than an illegal abortion, eh Rick?

as sexy as a Donna Summer 12"

re: Ned's weed map above (which is excellent btw)

https://preview.redd.it/5ed97mut16zb1.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=9f2077c870709542b02242c1fbeb2313850a6e08

In a weird way I sort of agree with old Rick, based on what California's ballot initiative process has become... big money interests can afford to collect signatures, and pretty soon we're voting on 'sexy' things like physician staffing at dialysis clinics, or whether ambulance drivers get paid for lunch breaks (these are actual thing we've seen the last few cycles), things that really belong in the regulatory part of gov't

But god forbid the actual voters go behind JD Vance's back to pass this stuff, am i right?

J.D. Vance got the memo I guess. But a federal 15-week ban is a loser from both ends of the spectrum.

it lost virginia last night

I think citizen referendums are like any other part of our system, they can be used or abused for good, bad or weird interests. But living in a state that doesn't allow them, I wish we did.

Influential Republicans are circulating polling and focus groups that show their abortion message is failing badly. And that voters now believe "pro-life" means banning all abortions without exception... which they're pleading with candidates to combat.https://t.co/J1iLOEV58P

— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) November 8, 2023

Good job, GOP!

Turns out that’s what pro life actually means to these people who knew

Maybe if only all those states hadn't completely totally banned abortion people wouldn't think you wanted to completely totally ban abortion idk.

Leave my Daughter out of your Voice sounds like the title of a Julia Holter album

Who hasn’t tried to ban abortion without exception - lord knows i have

When faced with a poor outlook in terms of population demographics and trends, the GOP leaned hard into cheating and extremism as their two-pronged approach for prolonging and even potentially cementing their tenuous grasp on power. Turns out those two pillars are not popular when it comes to elections! But it’s way too late for them to shift course- how can you temper your message now without alienating the extremist voting bloc you are relying on to maintain what power you have- and potentially turning them against you?

Case in point

Ramaswamy: The GOP leadership is so weak. It let two journalists question our candidates — rather than pushing culture war to its logical end, which means replacing "their" people with ours. You can't just sit around complaining about bias. You have to remove them from the frame. https://t.co/A0DQsfxJKq

— Jay Rosen (@jayrosen_nyu) November 9, 2023

Thing I keep telling this right-wing evangelical guy I know — most people don't want to live in your weird little world, leave us out of it.

Trump is politically smart enough to know it's a losing issue, but that sets up an interesting reckoning with his lunatic megachurch base, which loves him almost as much it hates abortion.

yeah see that's the problem they've basically alienated everyone who isn't plugged into the right-wing mediasphere. and studies show for that shit to work they have to consistently be watching it. like didn't they do one where people switched from FOX to CNN for a week and they became way less radical? but to retain viewership you have to say increasingly insane shit and before you know it you're running guys like Dr. Oz and Herschel Walker while basing your entire party platform on the whims of a 78-year old 4x indicted reality TV star whose entire business model has been exposed as a total fraud from the ground up. not sure what the off-ramp is either it's not like they do anything for the people that they can actually run on

Trump is politically smart enough to know it's a losing issue

You can slam Trump pretty easily for his three (3!) SCOTUS nominations who were absolutely chosen specifically for their anti-abortion credibility and who cemented the downfall of Roe v Wade with their votes.

When you can’t broaden your base, you work really hard to narrow the electorate.

You can slam Trump pretty easily for his three (3!) SCOTUS nominations

Your honor, he was acting on advice of counsel.

But it seems a mistake to put so much stock in personality over platform and policies.

what if you don't care about his personality but simply on their merits don't like his pro-genocide policies, his pro-domestic-child-murder policies, his pro-climate-collapse policies, or his union-busting policies, and also think that being old and set in his ways might impact his dedication to these policies?

For more than 50 years, employers have been able to thwart their employees’ attempts to form unions in three simple steps (I have often wondered why “union avoidance” lawyers and consultants make so much money, given how straightforward this is):

1. When workers give their boss signed union cards showing a majority of them want to form a union, refuse to recognize or bargain with the union.

2. Use the NLRB’s sluggish processes to delay an election for weeks or months.

3. Use that time to retaliate against or threaten workers so the same group that signed union cards ultimately votes against forming the union they wanted.

Retaliation and threats are against the law, but the legal consequences are farcical. If an employer commits an unfair labor practice in the period before a union election, the NLRB will often, and I am not kidding here, require the employer to put up a poster saying they won’t break the law again, and then do the election over again.

The NLRB’s recent moves, however, should throw several monkey wrenches into this strategy. On Aug. 24, the NLRB issued a final rule that will speed up union elections, screwing up Step 2 of employers’ union-busting playbook. The rule, effective Dec. 26, will eliminate common delay tactics that help employers: pointless waiting periods, the chance to request numerous extensions, and the opportunity to flood the process with irrelevant arguments.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/biden-administration-union-strikes-nlrb-win.html

his union-busting policies

what exactly are his union-bashing policies? was under the impression that biden has been unusually pro-union in gesture and deed

Joe Biden siding with rail companies on sick leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-biden-rail-strike-labor-unions

He has also been a big supporter of cop unions, which shouldn’t exist. There are other examples of how his support of unions isn’t as robust as it could or should be.

Yes, it's fairer to accuse him of two steps forward, one step back

lol, "siding with rail companies" and "union busting."

the administration intervened to prevent a strike because of the effect a rail stoppage would have on the economy. AND they continued to push for paid sick days. union negotiations continued and now most US rail worker now have sick leave.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-unionized-us-rail-workers-now-have-new-sick-leave-2023-06-05/

you can disagree on the correctness of the strike call, but it is not union busting. we're a union household and Biden has strongly and repeatedly spoke on the importance of unions, and supported them.

I'm not disputing you bulb, but grim lol at 4 days of sick leave per year being a win in the era of covid

agreed

bulb & rob otm

lol, "siding with rail companies" and "union busting."

the administration intervened to prevent a strike because of the effect a rail stoppage would have on the economy. AND they continued to push for paid sick days. union negotiations continued and now most US rail worker now have sick leave.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-unionized-us-rail-workers-now-have-new-sick-leave-2023-06-05🕸/🕸

Meanwhile it's looking like the Moms 4 Liberty wave has peaked and is receding in a lot of places. Not totally surprising — polling pretty consistently shows majorities most places in favor of teaching real history and against banning books — but good to see.

https://popular.info/p/update-school-board-voters-fight

They're empowered in Florida, alas, thanks to Governor Chicken Fingers.

Mostly true in deep blue MN too, but for an unfortunate result in Anoka-Hennepin (state's largest, and very suburban, district).

I know when M4L types show up at school board meetings here everyone just rolls their eyes.

one of my former coworkers was a school board candidate that defeated M4L-backed candidates this week!

I love M4L... Max4Live

that's right

Re: M4L- It seems like their intention was to make up for what they lacked in numbers and actual support, with sheer volume, brashness and headline-making amplification. It worked on the short term, until people caught on. Turns out those headlines that they were relying on to make it seem like they were riding a big wave of support, came around and bit them by causing just the sort of backlash you would expect.

My wife was lurking on the local M4L FB group for a couple of years and watched them ping pong from "re-open the schools" to "no more masks" to anti-CRT and anti-trans all the while purging anyone who offered a deviant opinion and finally demanded dues money to stay in the group. So it's basically lure them in, radicalize them, soak them for cash.

I can see how this has also shrunk their numbers.

yeah, M4L is basically the Westboro Baptist Church now.

the level of in-fighting in M4L and similar groups is insane

a similar group in my state called the "mama bears" managed to blow up after one of the leaders made false allegations of abuse in her peer's home. turns out those calls are recorded and it's illegal to lie about that!

You get all the craziest most unpleasant people all together in one place, crazy and unpleasant things will happen. Marx said this.

"the craziest most unpleasant people all together in one place" for December thread title

I hope you keep a Google Doc file with these proposed title, little flower.

LOL pic.twitter.com/vbGG4xhTX6

— Acyn (@Acyn) November 9, 2023

Manchin announcing he will not seek reelection

Maybe the WV dems can find someone electable who's not such a dickhead. Obviously the problem there is 'electable'; they could find someone who's less of a dickhead by holding a lottery.

That seat will surely go to a Republican.

Well it didn't take long for someone to come along and crush my dreams.

Manchin knew he was going to lose to Jim Justice. Maybe he'll join Kennedy, West and Stein as a sixth party candidate.

https://i.imgur.com/qMJ3ZPR.png

https://thetoycollectorsguide.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/img_0172.jpg?w=520

A Manchin Presidential run was discussed during the three seconds the No Labels Party was a thing.

No Labels Party will be a thing as long as there are rich dupes

yeah, his endorsements are the golden touch, that's how we ended up with Senator Herschel Walker (R) who knows a thing or two about werewolves & vampires

It’s been a weird couple years

Yeah Justice will romp and it was looking dicey for Manchin anyway. In respects this clarifies things all around; don't have to headscratch over it, allocating resources etc.

So long, Creepy Joe.

Sinema is still on-track to get primaried next year, yes?

Manchin wants to get back down in his coal mine, back to basics, back where it all began

xpost You can't primary her, she already quit the party

are there any states dems are expected to flip a seat?

Not that I've seen. WV will go Republican, the Dems will be lucky to hang onto AZ and OH.

Ted Cruz and Rick Scott are the only ones who could conceivably picked off

And that's unlikely

Still, gotta say...I like this guy:

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:x4qyokjtdzgl7gmqhsw4ajqj/bafkreiea25ghzfa2axerb6oze6x5tmj2ame4xbxxusffg44q76vrxpshoy@jpeg

yeah, maybe he can pull a Fetterman

#CarhartDems

wow, Luke Combs running for senator

Re Sinema:

SCOOP — NRSC poll presented to GOP senators at lunch today has Ruben Gallego cruising in a 3-person contest w/ Kari Lake & Sen. Kyrsten Sinema

Gallego 41
Lake 37
Sinema 17

Daines said poll shows Sinema is splitting the R vote, not D vote

w/ @bresreportshttps://t.co/mDLv3uREtd

— Andrew Desiderio (@AndrewDesiderio) October 31, 2023

(Not sure I would call a 4-point lead "cruising," but seems like Gallego is in good position.)

Roffle, that would be kinda weirdly perfect.

That's a pretty good margin, for sure.

I saw a poll a few days ago which shows a wider Gallego lead should one of the two fools drop out.

yeah, maybe he can pull a Fetterman

Fetterman should campaign with him. 100% serious. That would likely be what saves the seat.

Brilliant

Don't worry, I'm sure Schumer has a totally great candidate in mind

W Va still has some dudes like him god bless

uh xpost

Sinema will end up a cushy lobbyist for Big Chardonnay

I like that AZ poll. Without knowing much about Gallego I feel like you could poll

A. Sinema
B. Lake
C. ANYBODY ELSE AT ALL, JUST LITERALLY ANYONE, YOUR BABYSITTER, THE LOCAL SPIN CLASS INSTRUCTOR, ANYONE

and get similar results.

wait I thought Sinema was the local spin class instructor

Sinema kind of has to increase her income, since all the places she used to hang out are full of people who hate her now.

Fetterman will never get a vote from me again after his sickening displays over the past few weeks.

His legs aren't that bad

lol Alfred

His legs aren't that bad

Jim Justice is the very popular Republican governor of West Virginia, who will be termed out and who has announced his candidacy for Senate. He is 100% going to win!! (and Manchin knows it). Democrats should not put any money into that race. They should throw everything into Tester in MT, Brown in OH, Gallego in AZ

And regarding Andrew Desiderio's inane tweet posted above, the numbers clearly indicate that Sinema splits both the Republican and Democratic votes, so anything is possible

If Sinema continues to poll consistently in the low double digits into next September her support will dwindle considerably by November. As it sinks in to voters that that she's hopelessly behind and can't possibly win they'll wander away into one camp or the other or just sit it out.

Manchin wants to get back down in his coal mine, back to basics, back where it all began

His campaign staff: just four guys in a mine, jamming

'how long must this go on??'

Not that I expected to see a Dem win a governor race in Mississippi - not to mention the sad regressive views Presley had on multiple issues - but I was especially disappointed when I assumed that Brandon Presley would be able to build upon the 2019 coalition that Mike Espy and Jim Hood were able to craft among BIPOC voters of all education levels, the small group of white working-class voters who consider themselves moderates or liberals, and the small-but-growing group of white voters with a college degree.

Presley held strong with BIPOC communities (at least where ballots didn't run out) and improved with WWC voters, but actually lost ground with college-grad whites, bucking the trend we see basically everywhere else in the US. Presley campaigned heavily against the corruption of the "good ol' boy" network, which one would figure would be a good strategy in a state where standard of living for a sizable chunk of all races can still be described as 'Dickensian'. But no, the gains he had with WWC voters were more than countered by a drop with college-grad whites because, in Mississippi, they *are* the good ol' boy (or girl) network, and how dare he threaten their fiefdoms.

Then again, what should I have expected from a demo who openly embrace a college with a racist mascot.

Abortion presumably hurt him with the white college grads, right?

Or are they all pro-lifers too?

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/09/im-so-tired-of-these-psychos-moms-for-liberty-is-now-a-brand/

“Local residents also feared that rewriting history classes to adhere to right-wing mythologies would ultimately harm the school's reputation, which could hurt both their property values and the ability of their kids to get into good colleges.“

Lmao

vince_mcmahon_eyes_meme.gif

lol that's great. the right might want to rethink painting the Ivy League as the pinnacle of wokeness

Letter from 27 Ohio House Republicans, just after voters approved a constitutional right to abortion.

Says they will "do everything in our power" to prevent antiabortion laws from being removed. pic.twitter.com/FuXcxQQZvc

— Jake Zuckerman (@jake_zuckerman) November 8, 2023

That's not even half of the GOP conference, it should be noted.

States' rights!!! (... to ignore the will of its people)

Good times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/nyregion/adams-fbi-investigation-phones.html

Pssh, the FBI is pretty biased, they're only investigating him because they think he did something criminal.

Let your haters be your waiters when you sit down at the table of success

https://nitter.net/SeanCasten/status/1722971856712442027#m

I'm too used to Twitter pasting, and didn't realize this was just a link. It's a thread from Sean Casten illustrating just how dysfunctional, unserious and batshit the House GOP are right now.

"5. They then used the first 20 days of that 45 day period to fight over a new speaker. Should we pick someone who hates gay people, fought to overturn the election or creeps on his son's porn? It took a while, but the @HouseGOP finally said YES to all three." haha

The Ohio legislature would be fools to try to undo issue 1. Loudly huffing about how anti-abortion they are while conceding they don't have the power to outlaw abortion is absolutely the sweet spot for Republican politicians.

They will undo Ohio Issue 1. The Republican Ohio Supreme Court has already ruled for the third time against the partisan gerrymandering of the legislature, but they've ignored it and they continue to use their maps for state elections without repercussions, so what's to stop them? There appear to be no consequences.

I haven't encountered "nitter dot net" before, there was a truncated version of those remarks on twitter, but that thread is awesome

Nitter just lets you read twitter without giving Elon the satisfaction (or requiring registration to read)

Good morning!

In regard to the Republican majority in the House, looks like soon we'll need the news networks to start up a chiron, a'la the Iran hostage crisis in 1979-80: America Held For Ransom, Day x.

You Love To See It: "Sinema left the Democratic party. Democratic donors left her too."

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/13/kyrsten-sinema-donors-democrats-00126676

Sinema is like the definition of "I sold out, but no one was buying."

turns out democratic donors want democrats to be elected, who knew

lol

HFC Official Position on CR: No More “Rolling Over Today To Fight Tomorrow” pic.twitter.com/8rE2VbRCbe

— House Freedom Caucus (@freedomcaucus) November 14, 2023

HFC more like KFC

high fructose cockfarmers

terrible punctuation in that official statement

We’ll Fight Tomorrow, wherever there’s trouble
H.F.C. is there!

fight fight fight

Have NEVER seen this on Capitol Hill:

While talking to @RepTimBurchett after the GOP conference meeting, former @SpeakerMcCarthy walked by with his detail and McCarthy shoved Burchett. Burchett lunged towards me. I thought it was a joke, it was not. And a chase ensued...

— Claudia Grisales (@cgrisales) November 14, 2023

Burchett con't: "You got no guts, you did so, ...the reporter said it right there, what kind of chicken move is that? You're pathetic man, you are so pathetic."

Burchett starts to walk away from McCarthy, tells me, "What a jerk," and then yells back, "You need security Kevin!"

— Claudia Grisales (@cgrisales) November 14, 2023

whats gotten into the usa congress

A US senator named "Markwayne Mullin" challenging a Teamsters leader to a fistfight makes me feel like we really have gone back to the mid-20th century pic.twitter.com/ktcKn6iRQ6

— Populism Updates (@PopulismUpdates) November 14, 2023

Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) declared during his weekly news conference Tuesday that the House “is a pressure cooker” after lawmakers have spent 10 weeks together in the halls of Congress.

No moment was more evident than minutes before when Rep. Tim Burchett (R-Tenn.) came up behind Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) and began yelling in his ear, accusing him of elbowing him in the back as they passed each other in a crowded hallway.

“Hey Kevin, why did you walk behind me and elbow me in the back,” Burchett said as The Washington Post interviewed McCarthy. “You have no guts.”

“I didn’t do that,” McCarthy replied.

As Burchett continued to yell, McCarthy laughed and stated, “Oh my god.”

“You are so pathetic,” Burchett said before slowing his steps to no longer be directly behind McCarthy.

“Thank you Tim,” McCarthy said.

McCarthy largely demurred, shrugging instead of answering questions about the altercation and other topics.

The altercation took place as Republicans were filing out of their weekly conference meeting where Republicans debated over the contours of the funding bill Johnson proposed last weekend. Burchett was one of eight Republicans who voted to oust McCarthy as speaker last month, and McCarthy has since continually called him out for prioritizing media attention over governing.

“He’s just a bully,” Burchett told reporters after the exchange. “He just needs to go on back to Southern California.”

as many have noted, it woudl be a good thijng for the entire GOP to kick each other's asses

Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) declared during his weekly news conference Tuesday that the House “is a pressure cooker” after lawmakers have spent 10 weeks together in the halls of Congress.

ok theyre just grumpy from having to go to work, relatable

man, wait until someone spends five minutes washing their coffee cup in the dining area

xp

*woudl
*thijng

i am rusty, sorry. my keyboard is also broken is several places, including multiple letters and the period key. it is a trying time, but we have to gather up our last remaining dollars and bet it all on the congressional representative who is most likely to not only survive fight club, but to win in a surprising way so that the odds are stacked against them. i am going with jake laturner

the distinguished gentleman from maryland microwaving crabcakes

there comes a time in every person's life when you stand behind the fence and yell "wh-OH! yeeeeowch! kick his ass jake!" and bear witness
https://i.imgur.com/NkdHZvx.png

Is that "mid-20th century" reference in that tweet supposed to be mid-19th Century? Wake me up when one of these ghouls brains another one with their cane on the Senate floor.

think they were referring to the mid century hearings on union corruption bobby kennedy vs jimmy hoffa and so forth, an imperfect reference for sure

Everything falling apart with this idiots

-@RepJamesComer flips out when he gets confronted on the loan to his brother by @JaredEMoskowitz!

This is good stuff! 🔥🔥
pic.twitter.com/4H0TbNwnu3

— Skyleigh Heinen (@Sky_Lee_1) November 14, 2023

These idiots are even affecting my grammar

And lol as this teamster mocking that tough guy asshole

Lol pic.twitter.com/SaFgr7YRUt

— Acyn (@Acyn) November 14, 2023

you look like a smurf just goin around and all this stuff

Thirty-two Short Films About the Dying Empire

We truly are living in the days of the kakistocracy.

lol

https://x.com/michaelarria/status/1724512124053930445

Ayo bipartisanship

we finally found the thing they believe in

there comes a time in every person's life when you stand behind the fence and yell "wh-OH! yeeeeowch! kick his ass jake!" and bear witness

lol. Is it ok if I use that Burchett-McCarthy image in our local newsletter? Burchett's our congressman.

Jab in the Back

Jeb! In the Back

Get Jebbed

When candidates and campaigns tell you who they are, listen to them.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech

IT’S MY JEB IN A BOX

"They're just calling Trump a fascist because they know that Trump will put them to death if he wins" is a hell of an excuse for using fascist language.

Cheung later said he was referencing their "sad, miserable existence" instead of their "entire existence," the Post noted

Oh, okay.

"He's rich, that's how they refer to the less fortunate..."

House just passed the stop-gap funding bill which was about as good as it was going to get; will the Freedumb Caucus remove Johnson now?

NEXT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9u9K7Up4Ts

Johnson is a kook and he's obv doomed as Speaker, but I guess I'll give him this one... doing the bare minimum that your job description entails?

So “vermin” is fine but “deplorables” is slander. Just trying to keep it all straight.

Following the testament of this nut that tried to bludgeon Paul Pelosi to death... I know she wasn't at the house at the time of the invasion, but is there really no 24/7 security for her home? She was second in succession to the throne

^^^ maybe 'testimony' would be a better word, maybe not

yeah it's pretty weird there was no security there.

critically I think this funding bill does not provide any funding for either Israel or Ukraine and I'm....ok with that if that's the case

When candidates and campaigns tell you who they are, listen to them.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech

― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, November 14, 2023 2:31 PM bookmarkflaglink

This is alarmingly true.

Sorry if this was already posted, but Trump's plans to use the Insurrection Act to deploy the military after his enemies and other assorted changes to the Constitution are absolutely chilling:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/05/trump-revenge-second-term/

He may seem like an utter clown and buffoon, but consider that even being out on supervised release for 91 criminal charges, and convicted of sexual assault and on trial for all manner things, he is still leading the polls in 5 swing states.

Lots of low-info voters, or people who - for whatever reason think that a second Trump term is fine.

Univision cancelling a bunch of pre-bought Biden ads after meeting with Trump seems... baffling? And possibly not good?

That’s a weird story (and maybe not the best thing to read when you first wake up)

As a side note - “‘You are a United States senator!’ he shouted” for December thread title

...or "Stand Your Butt Up"

amazing how this guy can just lose any and all sense of goodwill from anyone under 40 in less than a few months

Court Upholds Biden Admin’s Willow Oil Drilling Project

Remember when he promised to stop all new drilling on US lands? So do I!

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267

Prosecutors grapple with alternate reality defense of the political fringe in Paul Pelosi trial.
The trial has become something of a test of what happens when certain far-out strains of digital-age American radicalism collide with the criminal justice system.

I'm really not sure why they aren't going for an insanity defense

"he wasn't going after Pelosi as an elected official, see, he also wanted to kill Tom Hanks for being a pedophile" isn't a very good defense

"he wasn't planning on kidnapping her he just brought along zip ties for some other reason in case things went bad"

"He may seem like an utter clown and buffoon, but consider that even being out on supervised release for 91 criminal charges, and convicted of sexual assault and on trial for all manner things, he is still leading the polls in 5 swing states."

America has gone insane

Judges and juries have largely rejected the claims of Jan. 6 rioters. But a handful of judges have found that some rioters could not face weightier charges because they had no clue what was happening in the Capitol and therefore couldn’t have intended to block certification of Biden’s victory over Donald Trump.

U S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson found that one defendant — who surged with the Jan. 6 mob onto the Senate floor — had such a “unique stew in his mind” that she couldn’t be sure he had any idea he was breaking the law.

A unique stew

wasn't it a single poll? xp

Whereas now he has a unique stew in his pants

https://media.giphy.com/media/YubmsAgCotPm8/giphy.gif

Definitely a good solid sign of a functional justice system when "too stupid to know they were committing a crime" starts to work.

America has gone insane

― | (Latham Green), Wednesday, November 15, 2023 9:02 AM bookmarkflaglink

Yup. Roe overruled, affirmative action made illegal.

Trump has a team working very hard on legal rationalizations for making the Justice Department an instrument of political suppression

https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-2025-second-term.html?unlocked_article_code=1.-kw.6Bfk.UvIlsYrmbr2r&smid=url-share

otoh

https://www.abc4.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2023/11/6554134bae24f9.12346718.jpeg?w=876&h=493&crop=1

WE ARE UNITED 💀

wasn't it a single poll? xp

― c u (crüt), Wednesday, November 15, 2023 9:15 AM bookmarkflaglink

I was referring to the NY Times story but it's not just that.

A lot of polls and focus groups have Trump an absolute lock for the GOP nomination and Biden losing support quickly.

Love to live in a country where our choices boil down to "genocide supporter" or "guy who wants to bring back concentration camps".

was there a time the United States did not support genocide?

Fair point, but there were a few decades where they at least pretended to not publicly advocate for it at least.

Some of these themes trace back to the final period of Mr. Trump’s term in office. By that stage, his key advisers had learned how to more effectively wield power and Mr. Trump had fired officials who resisted some of his impulses and replaced them with loyalists.

They did not learn how to effectively wield power in the final days.

for Trump, effectively wielding power means finding ways to fire people he don't like

Wray: If you are asking whether the violence the Capitol on Jan 6th was part of some operation orchestrated by operatives/sources, the answer is no

Higgins: Do you know what a ghost bus is? These are nefarious in nature and were filled FBI informants dressed as Trump supporters pic.twitter.com/t8wgitZRy0

— Acyn (@Acyn) November 15, 2023

bro what?

I ain't afraid of no ghost ... bus.

fuck this whole 'just throwing it out there, people are saying' strain the American body politic

people are saying Republicans kill kittens for fun! that's what I hear, everyone is saying it.

But a handful of judges have found that some rioters could not face weightier charges because they had no clue what was happening in the Capitol and therefore couldn’t have intended to block certification of Biden’s victory over Donald Trump.

"Gawrsh, all I did was get on board a bus from Indiana that was painted I LOVE TRUMP, wearing a STOP THE STEAL shirt and carrying zip ties and bear spray. I had no clue what was going on."

Sounds good to me, case dismissed.

Also, it goes without saying but Clay Higgins is an absolute moron.

Wray: Can you explain what a Ghost Bus is?

Higgins: You're leaving a place you know where you're independent and on your own and, in a lot of cases you're going to your house where you grew up with your parents or your friends, and, so there's this transaction mentally that's occurring where you're going from one place toward another but you're not there yet, and while you're traveling you're in this kind of cocoon that's just really dark and weird and surrounded by strangers and you most often have your headphones on and you're trying to shut all that out but usually have trouble sleeping so you're up but you're tired. There's an emotional character to that and there's an emotional character to you getting a cheeseburger at 2:30 in the morning. And the way the lights are and if it's been raining. Ghost Bus has a completely different connotation in England and in Europe. There it's just about shitfaced people piling onto the ghsot bus to get home after a night of heavy drinking.

ha

Roy: One thing. I want my Republican colleagues to give me one thing. One. That I can go campaign on and say we did. Anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come down to the floor and come explain to me, one meaningful, significant thing the Republican majority has done pic.twitter.com/RGc4FTAelt

— Acyn (@Acyn) November 15, 2023

Ghost buses in the sky

Lol

Sorry if this was already posted, but Trump's plans to use the Insurrection Act to deploy the military after his enemies and other assorted changes to the Constitution are absolutely chilling:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/05/trump-revenge-second-term/

He may seem like an utter clown and buffoon, but consider that even being out on supervised release for 91 criminal charges, and convicted of sexual assault and on trial for all manner things, he is still leading the polls in 5 swing states.

Lots of low-info voters, or people who - for whatever reason think that a second Trump term is fine.

Would love to see WaPo change their tagline from "Democracy Dies in Darkness" to "Democracy Dies in Broad Fuckin' Daylight."

I'm really starting to think most polling is utter hogshit

I don't pick up numbers I don't recognize on my cellphone... and I rarely listen to rando voicemails left there either. I can't be alone in this. Are they still just calling landlines and hoping they get some bored person who will talk for a few minutes? Like 1993 style?

I wish the wheels of justice turned a little faster

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/nevada-false-electors-trump-investigation-00127369

They turn slowly but grind exceedingly fine.

The polls were accurate this year! The problem is now people made saying that because the democrats lived up to the polling numbers in elections this year that means…Biden’s polls are inaccurate.

the problem is Trump doesn't officially have the nomination yet, many of the polls have over 10% "undecided" responses still, we're over a year out, state-level polling aggregated is more valuable than national and it's not yet being done frequently enough by high enough quality pollsters, and there are still plenty of other factors like how Trump's various trials are going to impact him later on the campaign trail, or how Kennedy's independent campaign will impact things. if some of the economic news continues to look better than expected, Biden is also likely to rebound from some of the negative noise that's currently impacting him.

the polls that were accurate in previous Presidential elections weren't the ones that were run a year before the election.

Does the RNC have any kind of contingency plan for Trump splitting the vote/support in the multiple scenarios where he's not or makes himself unable to be the official (R) candidate?

Oh for sure the RNC definitely has very smart and well-thought-out strategies for any eventuality. lol.

I think polls are stupid but my gut tells me that they are directionally correct. again this will hinge on GOTV efforts.

Are they still just calling landlines and hoping they get some bored person who will talk for a few minutes? Like 1993 style?

that nyt swing state poll used a mix of landlines and cell phones. but it's true that the response rate is minuscule.

"...The former president reposted a message that called for a citizen's arrest of Judge Arthur Engoron and Letitia James."

2024 FUCK YEAH

The polls were accurate this year! The problem is now people made saying that because the democrats lived up to the polling numbers in elections this year that means…Biden’s polls are inaccurate.

― deep wubs and tribral rhythms (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, November 15, 2023 2:10 PM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

well yeah the fact that Ds continue to decisively win what should be close elections, particularly in swing states, is a good indicator that Biden's poll numbers probably are not gonna wind up being correct. I mean again, we're a year away and I don't think polls this far out have ever really been predictive, its really just all vibes at this point. once the public at large has to hear Trump speak again I guarantee those polls will start looking different.

As I think I pointed out earlier, Trump actually seems fine staying quiet-too-quiet outside of his cult audience this time around. I don’t expect to see him at a single debate ever again.

eh I don't know if he could help himself from doing the presidential ones. not only is it a much bigger audience but the optics of appearing at a debate vs. people you're going to crush is a lot different than going up against the person you just lost against. especially when your entire attack line is that he's senile and can't speak or whatever

The last time I posted a missive from Salaita, I was shouted at by various users (even tho he was correct), so I anticipate being shouted at again here (where he is, once again, correct):

Consider for a second the moral assumptions inherent to a political philosophy that insists on voting for genocidaires rather than making genocidaires accountable to their victims. If we are obliged to reward violence with power, then we essentially resign ourselves to passive spectatorship of ecocide and dispossession. How can we conceive of a decent existence in a society that only allows for mechanical participation? After all that we’ve seen, how can we give even perfunctory license to the U.S. ruling class? Visualizing an outcome different than the current horror is exceptionalism in its most dangerous form.

American exceptionalism is primarily a set of national mythologies asserting that the USA is a unique force for good in the world. This self-image is inextricably tied to conquest both in the past and present. American exceptionalism, then, is also a narrative process about non-Americans and their ontological position in relation to the United States. The process renders much of the world’s population an exception to the dignity of political and economic freedom.

https://stevesalaita.com/genocide-joe-and-the-electoralists/

I agree with Salaita's post. Except:

Merely entertaining the idea of voting for Joe Biden is an insult to the thousands of innocent souls whose slaughter he endorsed. The least we can do is ensure that their memories supersede the same old liberal delusions.

The piece could've named chairing the Senate Judiciary Committee during the Thomas hearings, the crime bill, MBNA, the Iraq War vote, in addition to his acquiescence towards American exceptionalism and Israeli slaughter -- and I will vote for him because that's how our system's set up.

That's fine, you do you.

Exactly.

To live at all today is to insult others' existence

But I agree with the snippet too, aside from it being "passive" spectatorship

If there was a single ounce of ETHICS in the “Ethics committee”, they would have not released this biased report. The Committee went to extraordinary lengths to smear myself and my legal team about me not being forthcoming (My legal bills suggest otherwise).

It is a disgusting…

— George Santos (@MrSantosNY) November 16, 2023

(Headline is cut off there: he's not seeking reelection)

Alfred 100% OTM. I clung to the absurd "my vote is my voice" shit long into my 30s, to my discredit, and was disabused of it right here on good old ilx, but it's mystifying to me that people my age still can't get this. if you stay home, it doesn't matter. if you vote third-party, you're not actually voting, you're just giving that third-party candidate a warm feeling when they look at their numbers, which will be low, because this isn't a multi-party system. it's two. you're gonna get one. your vote indicates which of the two you believe will do less harm. that's the Democrat. nobody here, afaik, is arguing "the Democrats are secretly good." they're very un-secretly bad, terrible really, just not as bad as the party whose candidate openly embraces fascism and who, for example, puts laws on the books in Tennessee making it illegal for a man to have sex with another man. vote Dem, you get the party that will "tut-tut, now we mustn't" to that law instead of passing it. that's it. you don't get "good candidate." you're not gonna. ever. Americans aren't revolutionaries and they won't be getting their shit together enough to change the system, it may collapse under the burdens of its own failures but on the left we think solidarity is something to be avoided so don't hold your breath. you get "less bad." that's all anybody's vote means.

and that's how good cop/bad cop politics thrives, as long as the good cops can point to their mandate

I love how voting for Biden makes you morally complicit in genocide but letting Trump get re-elected is, in Salaita's eyes, totally consequence-free morally. He's very lucky that he's too stupid to realize that inaction is also a choice that moral consequences attach to.

There's also that.

well, if 160 million people vote, your vote counts for 0.000000625% of 160 million ?

Being held at gunpoint and being told that no matter what choice you make will lead to slaughter and that not making a choice will also lead to slaughter isn’t the best fucking thing in the world, and defense of it will always strike me as pathetic

The only alternative is suicide and that is also awful. Existing as a citizen of a wealthy nation involves some level of rationalization that your existence is harmful, there’s literally nothing getting around that and everyone here has very clearly done that because we are all here.

one of the two appointed 3 SCOTUS justices who reversed Roe v Wade and are presiding over a not very subtle rollback of protections for marginalized groups and enabling a christofascist state.

I don't like the system but I know one reality I can't live in again.

table, if you have like a ruling royal family ready to go for America that will free us from this unpleasant franchise, go ahead and set it up

DJP otm

(well, the other alternative is political violence, as we've also seen)

the only movement that gets people's attention involves buildings being set on fire/rioting and we've seen, unfortunately, how precious people get about property damage over human lives when that happens.

xpost

Looking forward to the army occupying our cities on and the executive order ending birthright citizenship on Inauguration Day 2025!

That was not a poke at anyone in particular our votes won’t matter lol

ya the best thing about trump II is nobody can go "i didn't think he'd eat MY face!"

maybe it'll just be "ay america has always been eating faces really, this is fine."

Apart from the selfish reason of not wanting to deprive friends, my nieces, and godson of my estimable company, I don't want my enemies to think they've won by forcing suicide.

I detest cheap sentiment

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/11/15/political-violence-civil-war-q-a-00127350

"Right now we’re at an interesting moment politically in the United States where there isn’t a lot of accountability for anything right now. We’re in a climate where it’s unclear what people can and can’t do or what they can and can’t get away with. Some of the behavior we’re seeing, there’s an assumption that people will get away with it because all kinds of people are getting away with all kinds of things right now politically."

Being held at gunpoint and being told that no matter what choice you make will lead to slaughter and that not making a choice will also lead to slaughter isn’t the best fucking thing in the world, and defense of it will always strike me as pathetic

no one's defending anything, it's just a reality. if you choose to say "to me personally it makes no difference which of these two bad choices wins," that is indeed an expression of your privilege. it's demonstrably true in this country that however marginal -- indeed, pathetic! -- the difference in quality of life for people who, e.g., need government assistance to feed themselves or their families, will be under Democratic control than under Republican, it's still a measurable "if you're getting welfare, you better hope for a Democratic House & Senate. The other guys actively want to take your benefits; the Democrats will concede more than they should, much more, and make deals that are bad to preserve things they should be actively fighting for, and it sucks; and, again, if, for you, there's no difference between "people who want to eliminate your welfare check and people who will let the other guys take too big a bite of it" doesn't seem like a difference, that's an expression of privilege.

isn't envisioning every marginalised, impoverished, endangered voter as a hostage to the largesse of the Dems another form of privilege?

no, it isn't, and it has nothing to do with "largesse." it's really a very simple question, everything else is parlor games: one of two parties will have power; which will do less harm? nobody's going to overthrow the government this week, or next month, or next year, or in the next five years, unless it's the fascists. pointing out that your choices are "bad" and "worse" and that you should of course vote for bad, it's honestly a no-brainer, isn't privilege at all, it's math.

and that's how good cop/bad cop politics thrives, as long as the good cops can point to their mandate

― Tyler Perry's Cystitis (Noodle Vague), Thursday, November 16, 2023 10:24 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

true but I don't think letting the bad cops win ever led to there being better cops. like some people seem to hold on to this idea that if we let Trump win and the country tank as a result we'll wind up with a Dem candidate that's actually good and revolutionary, when we've seen that who you actually get is Joe Biden

nobody here, afaik, is arguing "the Democrats are secretly good."

I actually have! well, somewhat. I think Biden has actually done a lot of good things that he isn't getting credit for, because the Dems really really do not know how to sell themselves. in fact up until this Israel/genocide shit I was convinced he was the best President of my lifetime, in fact he probably still is sadly

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_D5cvPWcAAcPxA.jpg

The tweet that included this screenshot reads:

>>I’m genuinely not joking that Biden should make this part of the campaign. Cut an ad: [Biden voiceover] “we’re bringing jobs and diplomacy back to the United States, but that’s not all we’re bringing…”, cut to a panda doing roly-poly stuff. Feels like a layup.

Everyone does love pandas, they are adorable.

Saw a guy sum up the state of affairs like this:

If you're on the right, shitting on Dems is how you demonstrate the shared hatreds that make you part of the tribe.

If you're on the center-left, shitting on Dems is how you demonstrate the above-it-all independence that earns the admiration of peers.

If you're on the left, shitting on Dems is how you demonstrate the moral & ideological purity that are the price of membership.

If you're in the media, shitting on Dems is how you fight off accusations of bias & establish your "objectivity."

There is no faction in US politics -- barely even elected Dems! -- for whom praising Dems is socially advantageous. There's no approbation waiting, no reputational boost, for anyone. It is, from almost every vantage point, uncool. (Just try it on Twitter to see for yourself.)

Thus we get today's information environment, which responds to a transition from four years of violent irrational madness & mass death to three years of relative scandal-free sanity & economic recovery with ... unrelenting, top-to-bottom negativity.

No faction -- far as I can tell, not a single individual -- wants to reckon with their role & responsibility in this state of affairs, so I guess we're just going to talk ourselves into outright fascism and it's gonna be no one's fault.

My point is that a reluctant, strategic vote for the lesser evil isn't registered as reluctant or strategic but is used as evidence by that lesser evil that they in fact that enjoy support and therefore their policies are correct and justified

I guess my concession to this politics of despair is to not dictate to people who are more at risk than I am how they should vote, but there is a long game even in the theatre of electoral politics and arguments about some pragmatic election-by-election "vote for the least worst option" necessity are based on ignoring the longer term

And I don't see any evidence that voting least worst had done anything except encourage the alleged left/liberal parties to move further and further right over the last 50+ years

Real gross domestic product (GDP) increased at an annual rate of 4.9 percent in the third quarter of 2023

Which is currently the highest of any industrialized economy.. but yeah, voters 'trust' the GOP more when it comes to shepherding the economy, that's the ticket

I think Biden has actually done a lot of good things that he isn't getting credit for, because the Dems really really do not know how to sell themselves. in fact up until this Israel/genocide shit I was convinced he was the best President of my lifetime, in fact he probably still is sadly

My sense is that it's exactly because these good things are not hyped that the administration is able to sneak these good things by (for a failure in being lowkey, Biden's apparently very good FCC pick was bullied into withdrawing) which also tracks with their handling of Israel which is impossible to do in a lowkey way (unless they're secretly working behind the scenes to undermine Bibi while publicly maintaining full-throated support, but that smacks of 5D-Chessism).

many xposts No one is holding anyone at gunpoint and telling them to vote. You may receive some tut-tutting on a politics thread if you live in a swing state and want to keep your hands clean but that's about it.

I think people should vote or not vote as they see fit, but in the bizarro landscape of our electoral system I will say that I think there are basically two kinds of voting: mostly symbolic and mostly pragmatic. One is about signaling personal beliefs, the other is about actual programmatic results.

If you do not live in a swing state — which I would define as at minimum any state where the perceived or expected gap between the GOP and Democrats is less than 5 points, and maybe even 8-10 points — then I think it literally doesn't matter how you vote or don't vote. In California or New York or South Carolina or Idaho, all votes fall into the "mostly symbolic" category. Because while it's theoretically possible that if enough people voted third-party or didn't vote in those states they could end up with surprise winners, in practice that's not really going to happen. So symbolize away!

If you're in any kind of competitive state and considering sitting it out or voting third-party, then you are moving away from symbolic into pragmatic territory. That vote for a third party, or refusal to vote at all, carries the weight of real potential consequence — it could help make the difference in the outcome. As a mostly pragmatic and rarely symbolic voter myself, I don't care too much how people vote in noncompetitive states. But people in competitive states I hope would really think through the practical consequences of their votes, rather than just their symbolism.

isn't envisioning every marginalised, impoverished, endangered voter as a hostage to the largesse of the Dems another form of privilege?

― Tyler Perry's Cystitis (Noodle Vague)

I'm a gay man in Miami-Dade County, Florida. The only ones who hold us hostage are DeSantis, the Florida legislature, and the national GOP, who want to kill me and the queer people in worse economical positions than me.

and frogbs otm. I've allowed myself only a couple of arguments with GOP relatives since early 2022, and every time they wanna play a gotcha moment -- expecting a stuttering defensive Dem -- I rattle off every good thing Biden's done; they're especially gobsmacked when I say, "He's nominated the federal judges I want: those who don't treat the Constitution as a tombstone erected in 1787." So used are they to FOX/OAN talking points that they're thunderstruck when they see positive defenses of liberalism.

re: the 'mostly symbolic' vote in non-swing states... they still add to the vote total. Trump was denied a majority in 2016, again in 2020, and I think this matters as we continue to do absolutely nothing about the vagaries of the Electoral College

This bizness about Better Presidential Candidates amuses me. The best presidential candidate of my lifetime, Barack Obama, did shit for congressional and local races, whereas the most risible hack, i.e. Joe Biden, has signed more meaningful legislation than any prez of my lifetime.

re: the 'mostly symbolic' vote in non-swing states... they still add to the vote total.

I mean, I agree with you. I can make a whole case about the importance of minority-party voting in red states. But I wouldn't waste a bunch of time trying to persuade a fellow Tennessean of it, vs. trying to persuade someone in Arizona or Georgia or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin.

There was a WaPo article about voter revolt in Nebraska, a red state that is proving increasingly unresponsive to even ostensibly conservative constituents:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/15/nebraska-ballot-initiative-paid-sick-leave/

Which is to demonstrate, GOTV/education/canvassing can sometimes still make a difference, even if the party in charge is predetermined.

So used are they to FOX/OAN talking points that they're thunderstruck when they see positive defenses of liberalism.

well yeah it's the same thing as "wokeness" like they spend so much time trying to figure out what things have gone woke and basically no time trying to figure out why that's a bad thing. they just assume everyone thinks the same as them. but if you actually ask point blank "why is it bad to have a black Little Mermaid" they just stammer and talk about "history"

it seems pretty obvious to me that there are epiphenomena associated with voting in a non-swing state that still makes it essential to do it

Just to while away the time...multi-xps:

Consider for a second the moral assumptions inherent to a political philosophy that insists on voting for genocidaires rather than making genocidaires accountable to their victims.

This bit of rhetorical binary thinking appears to treat the two named alternatives as somehow equivalent in scope and moral suasion. Nothing could be further from the truth. If Salaita is implying that simply not voting for the genocidaire serves as a morally effective means of "making them accountable", that is an absurdity.

If Salaita is implying that each of us is morally responsible for making genocidaires accountable to their victims through some other means, then what other means is he suggesting? afaics his major conclusion is implied where he says "how can we conceive of a decent existence in a society that only allows for mechanical participation?" By which I take him to say that a "decent" (iow, morally acceptable) existence requires our recreating society. This is what every idealist has told us for millennia.

OK. If it is within each of our power to recreate society then why hasn't Salaita done this already? According to him it is a personal moral imperative. Ofc, this is an absurd question because the implication that each of us is individually morally responsible for recreating society is as much of an absurdity as the idea that simply not-voting-for-genocidaires will make them accountable to their victims.

But I notice another fallacy hiding in his rhetorical question, "how can we conceive of a decent existence in a society that only allows for mechanical participation?" It's the "only". Given his impassioned plea, I must presume that Salaita is doing as much as he understands to be possible to him to recreate society in the image he desires. He is speaking up, telling truth as he sees it, urging and inciting others to follow his vision, calling genocidaires to account, and probably other activities as well. Which he is currently allowed to do.

In a nation that is actively advancing toward more virulent forms of fascist oppression than we've experienced in many decades, where the police state will be more widely and violently applied to all forms of dissent, it seems better to do whatever we can to preserve at least the imperfect freedoms we currently 'enjoy', which allows us to speak up, tell truth as we see it, urge and incite others to follow our vision, call genocidaires to account, and pursue other activities as well. Even if it includes voting for the guy whose major virtue consists of not openly embracing white supremacists and calling for concentration camps for dissenters.

But I wouldn't waste a bunch of time trying to persuade a fellow Tennessean of it

I lived for Georgia in 30 years and never imagined we'd have a single viable Democratic U.S. Senate candidate, much less 2 sitting Democratic senators, this soon. In 2016 our Senate candidate was Jim Barksdale who is a complete nobody and was clearly a sign that the national party did not give a rat's ass about Georgia. By 2020 things were completely different.

Now I'm in Tennessee and of course I'm aware of the overwhelmingly bleak state of the citizenry's politics, but what happened in the suburbs of Atlanta could potentially happen in Nashville in the next few decades.

One of the things making the GOP more and more apocalyptic is the prospect of Texas becoming a swing state.

Are there any urban areas where the GOP's star is waxing instead of waning? Maybe Oklahoma City?

their strategy to deal with that is to disenfranchise voters in the larger cities (see Texas Senate Bill 1750, letting the GOP take over elections in Harris County... spoiler: that's where Democratic stronghold Houston is and they're going to make it as difficult as possible to vote there)

xxxp When I moved to Georgia in 1996, Democrats still held most state offices and controlled the legislature. The state's Senate delegation was split. By the early 2000s, it had gone completely Republican. Now, things have started to change, although the state is so gerrymandered it will be difficult for the Dems to retake control. It will be interesting to see what the legislature's response will be to the recent loss in court finding that the last redistricting was at least in part racially motivated.

that kind of stuff backfires a lot I feel, I mean the GOP did a lot of this shit in the runup to 2020 and it turns out "they're trying to take away your right to vote" actually brings people out

Are there any urban areas where the GOP's star is waxing instead of waning? Maybe Oklahoma City?

In a sense, maybe like Los Angeles? Seattle? At least compared to where they might've been 10-15 years ago?

Miami-Dade.

“A jury has convicted the man charged with breaking into the home of Rep. Nancy Pelosi and striking her 83-year-old husband in the head with a hammer in an act of political violence fueled by hard-right delusions.

David DePape, a Canadian citizen who was living in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time of the attack, was found guilty by a jury in federal court Thursday of assault and kidnapping charges that could send him to prison for decades.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/16/conviction-in-conspiracy-fueled-attack-on-paul-pelosi-00127648

yeah, I don't think having DePape on the stand was such a great idea, but I don't really care that much

Why was that in a federal court?

because he was attempting to attack a member of congress, I assume

meanwhile members of congress are attacking eqach other

The GOP’s star isn’t waxing in Seattle, mainstream Dems are the GOP here. Even the Nextdoor Nazis are democrats.

Lord Alfred and f. Hazel bringing wisdom.

I am a huge nerd and a horserace addict and an inside-the-Beltway creature, so feel free to disregard my opinion. But actually think those epiphenomena are meaningful.

The vote totals for losing candidates in noncompetitive races (or in noncompetitive states) can and do matter, in terms of measuring the viability of, and support for, losing points of view. They affect who runs. Who gets donations. How popular and unpopular various positions are.

When people say "eh, I'm in New York (or Mississippi), my vote doesn't matter," they deprive us of data on what may - eventually- matter in those places.

remember that election where you traded votes via the interwebs, and then got lectured that you broke the law, and you were like yah, right

fwiw, i posted the Salaita essay because i agree with it. i still agree with it. that doesn't mean that i think everyone has to make the same personal choices that i do, and frankly, being lectured or "reasoned with" about it doesn't really change what i see as facts. i'm used to being an outlier here in my political persuasion, that's fine.

"used to" also sometimes comes a little bit off as "pretty god damned proud of it" fwiw

But, as you said upthread, you do you ... the fight needs fighters in all flavors

^^ all the tools in the toolbox plz

one thing the fight absolutely always needs is extreme condescension

When people say "eh, I'm in New York (or Mississippi), my vote doesn't matter," they deprive us of data on what may - eventually- matter in those places.

― Oh I believe in Yetis' Day (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, November 16, 2023 5:12 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Isn't this is a little strange to say in the context of today's posts? table has just been informed repeatedly that he should vote for Biden despite being vehemently opposed to Biden's stance on something that matters to table. it's the very fact that votes for Biden are counted as endorsement of his policies that is the problem

More interesting than lecturing people here would be whether there's any data to support the idea that lecturing non-voters is effective anywhere or at any time.

T/S: lecturing non-voters vs being lectured by non-voters

rob, wrong: I have not told tabes to do shit

I explained what I will do.

the discussion started in reaction to an article that suggested it was immoral to vote for Biden because of his position and actions on Israel/Palestine, fwiw

Isn't this is a little strange to say in the context of today's posts? table has just been informed repeatedly that he should vote for Biden despite being vehemently opposed to Biden's stance on something that matters to table. it's the very fact that votes for Biden are counted as endorsement of his policies that is the problem

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:47 PM bookmarkflaglink

Rob, you better paste quote the posts you are talking about.

JCLC's posts are right there

right where? I don't think people appreciate being misquoted or misunderstood.

xxpost i don't think anybody itt is happy with things as they are and/or unwilling to work to change them. however, we also know the election is in less than a year, and the opponent running lead a pretty scary insurrection attempt only 2 years ago.

my feelings on the matter might be a lot different if 2017-2021 didn't happen, Roe v Wade was still standing, SCOTUS still functional, and Biden's opponent someone like Mitt Romney, who woulda fucked a lot of shit up but wouldn't be like throwing outright gasoline on a fire.

I'm hardly going to police anybody's vote anymore...but just sayin.

xp got more whenever somebody needs to be, lol, "lectured"

haha ty

xp
you're right and that's fair, Alfred. I was being too broad-brush, but in my defense other posters were p prescriptive imo. in the spirit of your posts though, I will concede that while it is possible that over the next year I may threaten to not vote out of disgust for Biden/Dems, I will almost certainly do so because I fucking hate republicans. ultimately though, count me on team "pres votes don't matter, mathematically" (eternally registered in Oregon unless I repatriate)

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

feel like there also needs to be a distinction made between ppl who don't vote at all because "the system is broken" or they don't care or w/e, those ppl are disgusting savages (and I don't think any of us here do that?). like, I'm sure table votes in local elections, so I care a lot less about debating his presidential vote and its effectiveness.

felicity, I can do that I guess, but as sleeve said I think JCLC's posts were pretty clear. that said, it is also possible that I am unfairly drawing on past convos here, since this discussion has happened many times before

― rob, Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:21 PM bookmarkflaglink

That's good. As it seemed your objections were to "today's posts" and not previous conversations, I was wondering.

xp

pointing out that your choices are "bad" and "worse" and that you should of course vote for bad, it's honestly a no-brainer, isn't privilege at all, it's math.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:04 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

But people in competitive states I hope would really think through the practical consequences of their votes, rather than just their symbolism.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, November 16, 2023 1:55 PM (four hours ago)

These were the main posts I had in mind, but I admit on review there was less lecturing directed at table than I thought. I apologize for exaggerating.

And my only point was that the arguments for voting for Dem presidents had gone from utilitarian pragmatism and harm reduction (e.g., JCLC's post) to an embrace of the symbolic messaging power of voting (the YMP post I responded to), and the latter struck me as quite close to table's position in the first place.