Being single - Classic or Dud

Now it just feels like a great big hole in the pit of my stomach. That's nothing to do with being *single* per se, it's to do with not being with the person that I want to be with.

If you're a woman, or a man who's handsome and charming enough to get laid with any regularity: classic.

If you're not: dud.

Overall: dud. I mean, half of everything that happens on Earth is about people trying to not be single -- shouldn't this tell us something?

If any of THAT makes sense.

So, yeah, I'm not serious about anything right now and happy about that.. allowing if something in the future ever becomes seriously good to take that path.

jesus, I make no sense today.

i prefer the anticipation aspect of singledom. so and so or that stranger can hold endless possibilities in your mind.

and hell yeah there is something to be said for independence! i think esp. if you've been in a relationship since schooldays. you can focus on a lot of stuff (career/education/art) that might've gotten pushed aside.

also i don't believe there should or could be anyone in the world whom i could turn to to understand and support everything about me, and that seems to be what drives a lot of people to get into relationships. without that expectation, being single is quite natural. i bet that when i'm older and have no family around and all my friends are getting married and having families i'll end up not wanting to be single anymore, though.

Classic for having lots sex with different women...but in the big picture, dud.

I think a period of being single (after my long marriage ended) did me good, taught me to rely more on myself, and I found some strength that I didn't really think I had. That doesn't mean I want it to continue, of course...

every once and a while i may get a little down about it, but the truth is, i'm not sure i would be able to deal with being in a relationship with someone.

the way i see it could happen is if i met someone and we both kind of accidentally felt like we MUST be together. fat chance of that. i just can't see putting any effort into it. the worst thing about having this attitude is that it does put you on the outside of society, at least in one regard.

c/d - neither

The only thing I worry about re: singledom (2+ years & counting, thanks) is being too aloof about independence, substituting the actual state of togetherness (however tenuous) for the easier-to-handle concept & notion of said togetherness - that is, wussing out of trying to get with someone because of the work & responsibility & vulnerability involved.

j/k Jon =)

it's only classic if you get rumpy pumpy every now and then though.

I started being properly single four weeks ago, and the first few days were sexsexsex, and I thought, "It's gonna be a pleasing summer." And then nothing else happened. It's my own fault, though. Too often I am in. When I should be out.

holy shit. its been almost 4 years since ive dated someone! im halfway to being an old hag!

I don't consider myself single, but I'm also not attached to any one person. If one of them develops into exclusivity, fine, but I'm quite happy to be free right now.

i kind of like being alone

Of course, if she follows my advice and then they turn into a) an All-Star outfielder and b) a five star general*, I'll probably hear about it.

*interesting footnote: the term "five-star general" was coined because George Marshall refused to be known as Field Marshal Marshall!

**i like the footnote

-- nathalie (metalmuza...), August 25th, 2001.

Can't believe the date this thread was started...the day I became "single"...ALWAYS SOMETHING THERE TO FUCKING REMIND ME

Show me the clouds and I'll give you sky if you want me to
Show me the crowds and I'll make you sigh if you take me through
Well, it's not enough to be
If you're gonna look, then you have to see
We're for the dark, baby, you and I

And though before I didn't cry
Now my eyes are never dry
And a thousand jesters couldn't make me smile

I miss you
I miss you

And now I know that I was wrong
But it's too late, for now you've gone
Lady come back
I miss you

And though our times were good and bad
Now you're gone, I'm always sad
And a thousand jesters couldn't make me smile

I miss you
I miss you

I miss you.

Myself, I hate being single because there doesn't seem to be an alternative in sight - EVER.

(xpost - holy shit, Barima, you should be beating them off with sticks! Now I'm even more depressed about my chances)

Other way round! Though personally, I'll settle for just beating them off (fnarr).

(Much as I hate to invoke this particular meme, one day my singledom will be proven - BY SCIENCE (the practice, not the person))

Uh, casual sex?

It's taken me a long time and a lot of heartache to realise that I think I'm actually pretty much happier off in a single state. And trying to think why... it's not like I want the freedom to screw around or whatever. I'm not that bothered about casual sex any more (or rather, well, I've grown out of the one night to two month stand type thing).

It's more this sense of, I can do what I want, when I want. I don't have anyone hassling me about when to go out, when to stay in, what to do, where to go, where to eat dinner, telling me it's time to go home from the pub, making me go to art openings when I'd rather be watching CSI. I can spend my Sunday afternoons on nature walks and my Saturday evenings watching Dr. Who with no one hassling me. I don't feel any obligation to watch my weight or not get drunk.

In fact... I guess that my overwhelming experience of relationships has been that they are, in fact, quite limiting to me. I don't get back more than I put in. I was trying to figure out what "Being In Love" meant. (Partly trying to figure out if I was actually "in love" and partly trying to figure out if I even *wanted* to be "in love".) And suddenly realised that "Love" to me meant that you valued another person's happiness more than, and even to the preclusion of your own.

And suddenly thought about it, and thought "Actually, that's rubbish. I can do without that." Cause it just never seems to be mutual.

The only thing that sucks about it is the idea that I might never have children. I always said that if I got to this age without spawning, that I'd try to have a child with a friend, artificial insemination or whatever. Now I'm not so sure, because I just don't have the money or the stability.

I'm done with Relationships. I'm done with Casual Sex. What I'd really like right now, is to have a Friends With Benefits situation. But that never really works, does it?

One night stands? Random people off internet dating? Prostitutes?

I seem to have two extremes - single and celibate, or else I somehow end up "Practically Married" and I wish there were a middle ground.

being single is also a lot better (some may say better than being in a monogamous etc. relationship) when you are getting lots of offers for causal sex, obviously.

And where do these offers of casual sex come from? I'm perplexed. Friends? Strangers?

Is that the sort of sex where cunnilingus is followed by an orgasm, instead of her coming when you're singing "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot"?

I'm sorry, I had to say that...

Being single for long periods of time = Usually fine, cool, no problem at all. Really nice to have all this time to myself and be able to make choices without asking, "Well, what do you want to do?"

However, lately, the briefest hint of mutual interest or attraction = OMG I want to fall in love badly.

It doesn't matter - that's the whole point!!

"being amazing and special" is an EXTREMELY subjective thing.. and I stress "EXTREMELY".

yessir. being able to watch movies again without feeling varying degrees of crumminess is a definite plus.

on the whole, i say single is dud. there were so many experiences that I really wanted to share with someone as they were happening but couldnt because i was alone. not a problem when im coupled.

This is a great point, but i counteract this with "imagine all the moments, or places you could see, that you COULD experience had you not been involved at the time." To further refute myself though: "the times spent together in those special places would indeed be that much more special."

I still think the pros and cons of single and non-single are perfectly balanced, generally. I'm just in a "pro-single" phase right now.

Living in Seattle helps with this attitude I think. Of course there are cuddling couples anywhere, and Seattle is no exception, but it's hardly forced down your throat here as much as it is in southern California.

People cuddle around here? I thought they just air kiss to NPR soundtracks.

In O.C.? I thought they'd air kiss to Limbaugh. (OK, I realize O.C. is not just Newport Beach, I know, but I had to get that in there.)

Even though there were times I was desperate to fall in love/settle down, I never EVER felt this way. I was never jealous of people being in love, living together,... Never looked at people holding hands, they probably just lived in another universe, in a seperate bubble. ;-) Being single is great, but, honestly, there were times - usually going to bed alone or going to an empty house - was a major fucking (or rather not fucking) dud. I think people are meant to be together. I could do the single thing for the rest of my life, but I'd not feel complete (yet still manage to be happy) if that makes sense...

Coincidentally, I watched The OC for the first time in ages yesterday - and it had a Death Cab for Cutie gig on it.

Again, "complete" is subjective. I'd feel less complete if I didn't get a chance to see as much of the world as possible, rather than experience a wonderful LTR. I'd happily give up the latter than the former. *shrug*

Well, you know I have been in love with you for a long time...

Oh wait, you were talking about Jon, weren't you? Dang! ;)

But, thanks to shitty economic times getting worse as I get older, it seems there are two forks in the road, as someone who loves to travel:

a) settle down in an LTR, and rarely travel
b) stay single, and travel a lot

the chances of being able to be in an LTR *and* travel alot together are getting slimmer and slimmer. People are being forced to work longer and longer hours, and the chances of "But, honey, we CAN'T do the trip that weekend. I have to go to *insert obstacle here*" only grow as we get busier. Right now, imagining having to deal with that all the time just makes me want to say "fuck that noise. I'll stay single for a long time, and when I'm sick to fucking death of travelling, and I've 'seen it all', then maybe I'll settle down"

One downside of sorts is when you fall out of sync socially with all your single, casually prowling mates and you might not feel 'in' with them anymore, and you're not really the sort of person or in the sort of position to 'fix them up'.

I'm not alone. I have a pretty good network of close friends. That does make a huge difference.

See, THIS makes me happy. There's this unspoken thing about constant attachment about LTRs that just irritate me. I've gone out on many dates feeling out how her bodily chemistry works, and almost every time, it's been a "I want to hold on to you all the time" type chemistry..and while that's a great compliment and it's a very nice vibe at times, I'd go insane if I were held to that on a regular basis. I want to be able to have an LTR where I could take an extended break from her, and she could feel the same. (Dare I say, I might be better off starting things off as an open LTR? Then again, I guess that's just a different way to phrase a very close, emotional friendship with "benefits")

it's not jealousy, it's them being a reminder of things you miss out on when you're single, and how great it can be.

Memories of a decade-plus-old relationship to thread in my case.

Finnish technical sex acronyms? Share!

Oh no, you're not alone in this!

Anyway, I ask "don't you ever feel alone?" in the sense that if you go to bed, don't you feel as though you miss an empty space in the bed? (Not just for sex, but also just for talking.) I know friends help, but I still had times I felt extremely lonely. Not for long, usually just ten minutes but still long enough. ;-)

I'm all in favour of a law against PDA. ;-) I'm kidding, but I'm not one to hold hands in public. I don't have that need.

I tried to do that "eat a spagetti from both ends, then kiss when you reach the middle" from Lady and the Tramp with a girl once, but she stopped before the kiss. How unromantic!

i get bored of people much too easily (even friends ha!), i cannot live w/ others, i partially moved across the country to be away from family members....i really feel as if not only do i function best alone but i can perhaps only function alone. i need S P A C E ....but since post-high school i havent had any sort of long-term relationship i can't compare either situations, can i?

singlehood just feels normal, and i somewhat fear relinquishing its freedom - having a full-time SO in my mind i'd always have to answer to = threatening prison-like state. but yes, at the same time i do have my infrequent emo-lonseome moments at night. maybe its time to continue in the "gorwing up" thang and settle down (but what if i feel as if it's inimical to my spiritual progress?!)

I dunno, Vic, all my family are Saggitarians, doesn't describe them! Then again all three have either gone away for a long while (Dad on the submarines, etc.) or talked about long trips away and sometimes openly envy me when I go, so you never know. ;-)

Agreed. and agreed again.

it's funny--i'm starting to lose interest in all the "me" things that i used to love. movies, literature, philosophy, music. i don't get much pleasure from them anymore. i feel like i keep running up against the wall of myself again and again and it's painful. i know better than to think this wall can be overcome, but i'd like to think there is something better than this kind of loneliness.

all of this is of course exacerbated by meeting the rare girl that catches my interest, except she is moving away in august!

Wow, yeah. I feel weird thinking this sometimes, tho.

Hmmm, maybe it's not bad luck. Perhaps my skin is very uncomforting and is made of shark scales or sandpaper or something?

*applies bandaid* OWWWWWWWWW!

*applies bandaid to bandaid*

haha this is exactly the phenomenon that ALWAYS precludes these I Crave Girlfriend periods like the one I'm in now

And like okay guys yeah the cuddling and waking up together and all that is great, but not nearly as great as when it is COUPLED (did you see what I did there!?!?) with BADASS FUCKING

you xposter you

And also sometimes just bodily touch and warmth will just do.

right now, being single is dud.

in other words, being crazy helps keep singledom interesting, but its hard to find someone just as crazy as you on that weird wavelength to really relationship with. and being a manehore gets boring and is dud

maybe that's what i need to work on.

I dunno, it depends... Some time ago I had a what you call a regular partner for casual sex (I don't like the term "fuck buddy" for some reason), and even with her we sometimes ended up just cuddling and stuff, no sex. But to each his own.

I always seem to view my relationships unfavourably with those of other people, though. So many couples I know seem so perfectly matched for one another it makes me wonder if its worth dragging someone else through all the nastiness when I'll only be thinking "we don't click like Boy X and Girl Y". Aah, greener grass.

so true.

Need?! That sounds so cold and dismissive. Is it really a need? I guess there's the subconscious desire to be reassured, but I can't think of holding someone's hand as anything other than a happy, shared moment of intimacy.

(obv there are also times when one feels possessive and clings in one way or other to one's girlfriend, but there's usually a reason for that, such as Spencer Chow walking into the room or something)

It's okay to hold hands in the park, in private, etc. But people who walk down relatively busy streets holding hands are dicks.

I guess a lot of the things that I've said were "limiting" about being in a relationship sound pretty petty, and yeah, there's more to it than being able to watch CSI when you want. I guess it's because the two long term relationships that I have had have been with partners that were *so* controlling (and in one case actually abusive) that I really lost a part of myself that was very important and I've had a lot of trouble getting back.

It's not so much the freedom to go to the pub when you like, but important things like... the freedom to live in your own place, the freedom to have the career/job you want, work the hours that you see fit, without interference from your partern. These have been the *serious* things, though of course the things I've complained about have been little things like me having to go to their events, but them never going to mine.

I suppose what a lot of people are saying is that a relationship would have to be *perfect* for them to sacrifice their singlehood for. I don't think that perfect relationship exists. And at the same time, I *accept* that all relationships take work. But I don't feel prepared to settle any more.

i like the idea of a relationship but it's tough to find someone that I trust enough.

Exactly!

Also, you get a cuddle after sex, don’t you?

great

i just got a dirty look from my boss for laughing out loud when she was on the phone.

I think I'd change that to someone that makes me want to trust, but totally.

And the cuddle thing is so not me -- especially after sex. Ugh...don't touch me. I'm not really an overly touchy sort. I hug my family and my cat, but that's about it.

x-post

-- jel -- June 13th, 2005 7:07 PM.

a round of updates is well over-due.

The miserable Bank Holiday weekend I had earlier this year, with the cough and chest pain from hell for 3 or 4 days by myself, is a strong memory.

-- Eyeball Kicks (eyeballkick...), June 12th, 2005 10:18 PM. (Eyeball Kicks)

I managed to go out a few times in the week after this post, and it was sexsexsex again, and then suddenly I wasn't single any more.

strange, that's what having a gf has been like for me

Oh the painful memories. (Not of this game, of the early eighties playoff matchup.)

i'm just appalled at this statement i made five years ago. what a vile braggart i was.

the most classic thing is being in love but not cohabiting. fuck, i'm in TWO relationships, if i was cohabiting i would get NO time alone and that would drive me quite batshit.

Oh the painful memories. (Not of this game, of the early eighties playoff matchup.)

Worked out all right for me. It was the Superbowl that sucked.

I loved being single and I love being married. Christ, I'm no help here.

No, that I was fine with.

This kind of thing fills me with joy.

I'm not so sure about this... Sometimes you just feel like your lacking human intimacy, you know. I at least have nothing against casual relationships, where both participants know it's not gonna last that long, but you can still share a bit of warmth and dating and fun.

my default setting is that of a single person i think. im too particular about girls most of the time. so im usually by self, most relationships have a top limit of 2 months for me, after that its usually friends. or sometimes 'friends'

(xx-post)

To me it goes in periods. Sometimes I just want to be by myself, sometimes almost any decent person would do.

I was kinda referring to briefness of the relationship there... I think you can have plenty of warmth without True Love.

as for intimacy or whatever, i dunno, i kinda lack that. i work better on a friend level, which is the whole 'default setting single' type thing. most rels i have pretty much default back to that after the initial couple months.

am i happy about that? dunno, sometimes not so much, other times is fine

This is me, to a T. Except for the "friends" bit - I don't even bother pretending that any more.

And I remain mystified by this "friends with benefits" thing. I'm still not sure how it happens.

I'm quite a strong believer that in order to be happy in a relationship, you first have to be happy being single. But I think I have that default single setting too. In fact, I think my position is almost exactly the same as Gareth's.

That said, the friend-with-benefits thing can be good for affection and intimacy too, I think.

I don't believe in this "friends with benefits" scenario. I don't believe it exists, I think you're all making it up.

if i'm cheerleading for boring 'normal' relationships, i do agree that people who have to be in one all the time spook me a bit, it's almost like they don't care about who they're with.

i believe friends with benefits exists. i read about it once

i think my relationships have all been 'friends with benefits', from their side haha

This wasn't about my supposed heroism, it's was more about going through the doubts I had in my own mind.

And I still want a long-term relationship.

otm

Also, they tend to be the people who feel that you also have to be in a relationship, or you're not worth bothering with.

I have a couple of friends, whose every conversation with me can be guaranteed to open with "so have you found someone yet?"

When sex is probably the benefit of a relationship that I miss the least.

I mean, sure, short-term relationships work for some and for some they don't, but long-term relationships and True Love are still the norm (even if in real life it doesn't exist in its pure form), and going against the norm can make you doubt your own actions.

i think you may be too hung up on the quite literally Idealized ("it doesn't exist in its pure form" -- hi dere plato) notion of True Love.

long-term relationships are the norm, possibly, but what the hell are they? like 'FWBs' they cover a whole range of things.

So - relationships turn me into a bit of a MESS! Living with a significant other just seems - alien and strange! I am a social robot! Argh!

I do however miss the "someone to do stuff with" element, (or perhaps - to encourage me to do more stuff, I have a bad tendency to hermit out when by self at home), and the talking in "we" speak - which strikes me like a bomb whenever I become single again. O, alas!

No, it's more a case of being able to accept that two people can like each other, fancy each other, want to act on that impulse but still not particularly want to be In A Relationship with each other. It's not de facto a case of one person callously leading on the other. Although you have to be very sure both people are singing from the same hymn sheet, which is the tricky part.

actually, im skating into territory i dont really want to talk about here, i think i should go revive a thread about bus stations

Yeah, when you're Freinding W/ Benefits, you need to make a rule that as soon as one party starts harbouring proper affections to the other, you kill it dead.
-- dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (juror...)

oh you.

I was really bad at being single and endlessly chased relationships which also made me miserable (the chasing, the rejections AND the relationships I ended up in). I only got good at the relationship thing when I met a person that I was good at being myself with. If I was as sensible then as I am now, I'd have been OK at being single. But I wasn't. I was trying to escape from something (being single) that wasn't actually the problem, but it's only in the last few years that I've realised that.

or in erith, kent

Even if it isn't, you still usually end up alone, possibly in the dark, and with someone trying to get you to go away.

is this from your post about Blur, or your post about Beck?

xpost

Even the setbacks during the chase are good. Being chased is good too.

I am v.happily in a relationship and am very very fortunate to have what I have considering what a sorry mess I have made of things at times. But it's a different kind of happy.

What is that MTV show? People who are eternally single are treated like CSI corpses: MTV dissects their life and person to find out why they are single. What an aweful... aweful show.

not so great if you want teh s3x and doesn't get it

pretty good if you're not really bothered about teh s3x and want/need time to complete civ4 or learn about project managment.

Same reason that people read The Rules, but a different "Authority".

x-post

The funniest thing about that MTV show was when they said: "You're so uptight. You're the kind of person who probably gets angry when the cap isn't on the tube of toothpaste." Oh shit, that was sort of ME at one point! I can get so frustrated when my husband (or anyone else) doesn't put a cap on it. A tube I mean. wink wink nudge nudge.

I think that's the brilliance of the term "Smug Marrieds" (though I got called on it for using it on my blog last week) - is that it turns this conventional wisdom on its head. That there's not something wrong with people for being single, but more that Being Married is this weird state that makes people lose their minds. :-D

-- teh_kit (kittenslikemil...), November 15th, 2006 1:28 PM. (g-kit) (link)

we're all on the same page here!

I'm going to gender generalise here, but it seems like men are the ones who miss teh sex like it's a giant urge that will kill them. With women, it's that sense of wanting to be crushed out on someone.

I'm perfectly happy being single when I have a crush. It's just when the crush is on someone IRL, not some random musician, and it doesn't actually work out, that becomes all shite. :-(

Bah! Don't they know how to masturbate?

i haven't done any statistical study on this obv. apart from knowing single friends of both genders and have a good idea of who is getting some and who isn't

But..... it don't think teh sex IN ITSELF is that big a deal. I mean, if that's all you want, a steady supply of sex, then you can get it. But I do concede that for most men sex with she who is being chased/crushed on etc etc is the most impt thing. What is the most important thing for women with a crush?

I think men see that rush as more of a purely sexual thing.

a) its not very, well, blokey
b) its easier to retain a veneer of emotional detachment and pretend things are purely sexual, possibly through...
c) fear of looking too keen, or that you're about to be taken for a ride, or just that you'll look creepy or plain mental

People lie. Both to themselves, and to others. How is supposed to know what someone is thinking, if they don't talk about it? If a person acts as if such a supposition is true, it might as well be true.

few xposts, bnrq OTM

I *do* miss that, I absolutely do, I'll be perfectly honest about it.

I have just, in a sense, "given up" thinking that it's ever going to happen. Not for any of those bullshit insecurity reasons listed in that other thread, but simply based on the evidence - that it hasn't happened yet, and everything I've actively done to persue not being single has actually made me feel *worse* both about being single and about myself.

To the point where I do actually think it's healthier to just give up, and no longer expect it, or even hope for it.

bnrq is!
-- teh_kit (kittenslikemil...), November 15th, 2006.

difference between LAWS, TENDENCIES, and THINGS I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES

This is my main worry when starting a new relationship.

Then again, I've been on the receiving end of it too, and I've known women (well, a woman) go from "I think you're perfect for me and I want us to be together forever" to "I don't think we click as a couple" within a week.

I do think that in relationships I can't decide whether to drown both of us in togetherness and emotional intimacy or to maintain boundaries and behave like two separate people who like dining/conversing/sleeping with each other. Not very good at navigating that, tho of course it's different with every partner, but I'm afraid I'm just in the habit of being single as much as I crave not to be.

dr c: yes, yes i can >:)

The giddy romantic thing - yes geezers get this too, but call it something else. That's what I miss.

**Dr. C, please to share your secrets of how to get a steady supply of sex. There are literally millions that chase this elusive knowledge!**

Be very very unselective about who you have it with. And have it with people who are similarly unselective. I mean most given nights, if you absolutely had to, you could go out and get a shag from SOMEONE. But it would be hideous so you probably wouldn't.

even with the right schpelling i'd still not understand it. :-(

(kit really getting those excelsiors in today!) :-D

brennschluss
orgone

-- Fake Tuomas (lixnixn...), November 15th, 2006 2:18 PM.

Fixed.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/images/mansladder.jpg

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/images/womansladder.jpg

I don't understand the woman's ladder... Can someone explain it, please?

This is completely OTM, whether it's describing a potential relationship or a past one. Nothing will take the fun out of being single like (a) missing your ex, or (b) getting over your ex, meeting someone you're really into, and getting shot down.

loads of blokes have that same giddy sweeping romantic thing. It's just not very fashionable to talk about it because

a) its not very, well, blokey
b) its easier to retain a veneer of emotional detachment and pretend things are purely sexual, possibly through...
c) fear of looking too keen, or that you're about to be taken for a ride, or just that you'll look creepy or plain mental

More than a few women will drop a guy as soon as they know he really, really likes her. It's the counterpart of the male tendency to lose interest after having sex with a woman: these people are still in the "thrill of the chase" stage, not the "willing to build something together" stage. All of them are in some sense porn addicts, it's just a question of whether it's physical or emotional porn.

Really, I think a lot of women are more likely to be hung up on a guy if he's detached, cool, seems semi-uninterested. And I can see the counterargument coming that "Guys do that too!" but it has no resonance at all with my experience, I love it when a girl I like is upfront about her interest, and just about every guy I know does too.

Yes. But as you suggest, once that interest is reciprocated, the whole thing collapses. Uh?

1) F-buddy.I'd remove this and put 'non-friend'. Otherwise it sort of assumes that the only way into dating zone is via friend or fbuddy. I think that f-buddy is a special subclass of friend which need not clutter the first order model. But what's missing is a way into the dating zone with someone you don't really know and are not a friend with first.

2) Speaking from experience, the Zone of Pain should be much LARGER and cover all possible states. Perhaps on a 3D model it would hover overhead in a different plane. In an animated model it could engulf any of the states and flash on and off according to circumstances.

Mmm, wait....but if I get rid of f-buddy, then the axes are wrong. You need to account for the fact that you find them physically attractive but don't know much about the mental attractiveness (yet). So perhaps f-buddy gets reinstated and the model becomes 3D with another axis coming out of the screen to account for this. Or something...

However, if it's as true as the female side (that is: not true for vast sections of female persons) then I just roll my eyes in disgust at the whole thing.

But, seeing as how it's written, apparently, by two guys, with no input from females at all, well...

Oh, fuck it. Shit like that makes me want to shoot myself in the head rather than ever have sex again. Do people really view the world like that?

and no, kate, those things are enormously simplified FHM-ed 'comedy'. They're the premise upon which a thousand awful BBC3 sitcoms are based.

kate...if i took that seriously i would want to shoot myself in the head too! but i just think it's kind of funny

f-buddy and friend can then extend to intersect where pain zone was (ie below lacuna of brennschluss which is important and must stay)

I guess I just don't understand what men are like, at all. Even the ones that I'm friends with, or quite close friends with, can come up with things that horrify me. :-(

And I have only a limited understanding of women, either, because obviously I don't act like them, either. Argh!

My only "ladder" is that when you meet someone, quite soon after (we're talking minutes, hours at the most) they get put into "yes, sure" or "no, never" or "well, perhaps I could conceive of it..." categories.

People can definitely switch categories - though the switching is more likely to be on account of behaviour, rather than looks. (A clever, funny but not so pointy-nosed bloke can become attractive as you realise his cleverness and funnines - and conversely, handsome is as handsome does, if you realise a pointy-nosed bloke it a total ASSHOLE they can fly into the "no, never" category quicker than if they had backhair.)

i. ppl who consider them made to be broken are k-sexy
ii. SOMETIMES when you pursue such ppl you discover why the rules got invented
iii. BUT NOT ALWAYS

x-post

But don't you find that there are many contradictory rules? Someone says 'don't appear too keen' and the next person says 'for god's sake TELL them you're interested'.

and if the people you meet don't then there's not much use dwelling on it.

I repeat what was said on another thread, that every time a bloke says this, he usually has in his mind a *specific* woman, shown in a soft focus film running in his head.

In retrospect, I think it's probably easy to get too caught up in this. Most of the so-called rules are often just helpful guidelines, and you should really just go on your own instinct while keeping the "rules" in the back of your mind. For instance, after initially meeting the girl I've now been dating for seven months, I called her right away (knowing I'd get her voicemail, and just to say "it was nice meeting you"). Several of my friends thought this was poor strategy, and I knew it was a risk, but it also felt right to me, and obv. it had a good ending.

there are several women who almost pass every category but no specific can meet all goals.

everyone otherthinks things.

It depends on the way they are upfront about it!

With some women, it's great. With others, it's just frightening. Over time, I am managing to see fewer as frightening and more as great.

(I am also better able to *notice* when they are being upfront)

The last Date I went on, the bloke messaged me less than an hour after the date to say that he had enjoyed it. I waited a few days before emailing him to tell him that I wasn't really interested in him.

Now, I'd already made up my mind about 5 minutes into the date that I wasn't very interested in him. However, he might read it as I rejected him because he messaged me too quickly. Which is a valid conclusion, but an incorrect one. Had I been interested in him, the quick text would have been a very great positive.

However, anyone deciding to make a Rule out of that correlation would be very much mistaken.

The statement ' classic unless there's someone you want to go out with' interests me. For me when I was single the pursuit (that sounds predatory - I don't mean it that way) or being pursued was classic even if it wasn't working out too well. I mean once you've got over the first couple of rejections, it's more fun than not. Even the pain, the longing, the agony, the embarrassments are classic really. They're just things you have to do.

The answer is that whoever cuts and runs needs to get themselves to a therapist, I guess? Or just wait until they're old enough that the anxiety about dying alone is greater than the anxiety at having to commit to someone and deal with reality. (Hopefully by that time they'll find a good match, rather than just settling for the first etc.)

I repeat what was said on another thread, that every time a bloke says this, he usually has in his mind a *specific* woman, shown in a soft focus film running in his head.

Well, I think it's fair to say that we men are probably picturing a woman we'd be attracted to, sure. But I don't think women are any different in that department -- so what's your point, exactly?

And if the argument is "Everyone wants attention from Hot Guys/Girls, and is more ambivalent about attention from Less Hot Guys/Girls", then I think that's obvious. People who are immediately compelling on a physical basis will always have an edge: so it is and thus shall it ever be.

And maybe it's true that someone who doesn't think that much of you, physically, will be more intrigued if you act all mysterious. But I think you're probably better off finding the person who does want you the way you are, rather than needing to be wrapped up in a package of mystery.

xpost Exactly, Kate, the "rules" change based on what a person thinks of you, and you of them, which is why hard-and-fast rules don't amount to much. No doubt he's on a message board somewhere complaining that you would've been more interested if he'd played it cool!

a year ago i was in the midst of that awesome bliss-state when you first start dating someone and the two of you really click. that amazing time early in a relationship where every small discovery about the other person fills you with a sense of joy so great that it feels like your heart is going to swell so large it might explode out of your chest.

now i'm fucking around on the internet.

I like Starry's first post, and Laurel's, especially.

sadist

I don't have to ask permission to go to the pub. I tell him I'm going to the pub, then I go.

xpost, OTM

</massive chip on shoulder>

xpost Um, I've dated plenty of girls, and plenty of them didn't write if they weren't feeling "the spark" or what have you. What you're describing is not a male-exclusive phenomenon.

I also know that for both genders, walking around with a massive chip on your shoulder about the opposite sex is pretty much the #1 way to guarantee that you're not going to get in a good relationship anytime soon.

So again, what's your point?

(how "heteronormative" of me)

x-post, Mark S OTM!

I don't know who I'm confusing him with! If I knew, I'd not be confused!

I honestly think that people would be generally happier if "rules" about how women and men should act would disappear. (To give you a non-romance related example, I think one reason men have a higher suicide rate than women is the fact that men are less likely to talk abotu their emotional problems, because "guys don't do that"). The reason I'm drawn to non-gendered people is not because I find rebellion sexy, but because I recognize something similar to me in them.

Dude, you know you'd be all over that with accusations of sexism if someone had made a generalization about women, "joke" or not. Do I have a chip on my shoulder about that? Yeah, absolutely, I hate to see people get away with making gross generalizations about men, and it annoys the crap out of me, because half of the shit you say has no connection to my experience as a male, and is about on a par with "Women be shopping" at best. So sue me. (Or stop complaining, either one's fine.)

because half of the shit you say has no connection to my experience as a male

Well, I'm not surprised. I've never dated you, have I? (Unless you're an ex boyfriend in disguise.)

"The Shit" I say is almost exclusively based on *my* personal experience of men I have dated. This is not representative of "all men", any more than I am representative of "all women". If I had to amend that in to every post I ever made, well, it would get it a bit tedious, wouldn't it?

If I have made sweeping generalisations on this thread, I have said that they were such, and other men have managed to discuss or refute them perfectly reasonably.

Um, an ad hominem go is NOT the same thing as disagreeing with the way you talk about men. I don't know you personally, and can't speak to your morals or what-have-you: I just don't like what you're saying, and think it's hypocritical. Nice try, though!

"The Shit" I say is almost exclusively based on *my* personal experience of men I have dated. This is not representative of "all men", any more than I am representative of "all women". If I had to amend that in to every post I ever made, well, it would get it a bit tedious, wouldn't it?

Yes, except that if some guy comes on here and says "Women always ____" or "Women never ____", they'll totally get shat on, whether or not they invoke the "my personal experience" disclaimer.

So why is it OK for you to do it? Because you have friends here? Because you're female, and the global oppression of womankind gives you a free pass? It just annoys me, and seems counterproductive at best.

I mean, here, let me try:

"I think most women, or at least the women I've known based on my experience, secretly/ subconsciously want to fuck their father, and haven't sorted that out in therapy yet."

Now don't you dare call me on that one, because after all, It's My Experience!

This sounds lovely.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Mandalion/Workdo.jpg

(note: these people are not my friends)

There is a lot of forced contact between those couples. Not terribly coupley, all told.

xpost

Manders, amazing photo.

(there are four too many GURLS for it to be improv music!)

(sorry tuomas and lurker to TRANSGRESS THE IRON LAW OF NEVER MAKING OBSERVATIONAL GENERALISATIONS FOR COMICAL PURPOSES LIKE EVER)

playing vs not playing a role, has nothing really to do with letting things develop vs making something happen with plans and effort.

# Suicide was the 11th leading cause of death in the United States.
# It was the 8th leading cause of death for males, and 19th leading cause of death for females.
# More men than women die by suicide.
* The gender ratio is 4:1.
[...]
No annual national data on attempted suicide are available; reliable scientific research, however, has found that:
* There are an estimated 8-25 attempted suicides to one completion; the ratio is higher in women and youth and lower in men and the elderly
* More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 3:1

Every study I've ever read says that men are much more likely to use methods that have no chance of failing, i.e. guns and the like. My Own Experience is that everyone I know who's attempted suicide, but has been found or otherwise saved, has been female; everyone I know who's succeeded has been male.

xxpost nevermind gear just saved the thread :D

Yes, and this is part of my point - for women, a suicide attempt migh be a cry for help, and often, if they still have the social network to help them, they won't try it again. Men, on the other hand, have fewer ways of dealing with emotional and mental problems, so they tend to follow it all the way through. But this is just an extreme example, I think there are countless other ways how gender norms do actual damage to people (eating disorders, for example), so I see little point in defending them.

By the way, with "non-gendered" I meant "doesn't follow steretotypical gender norms" and with "womanly" "stereotypically feminine". I thought the idea was clear anyway.

Well hello there The Pinefox! Hope all's well etc etc.

Tuomas I suspect you are completely out of your depth on this one. Really, just stop wading.

Maybe I am - I've seemed to regret it every time I "lower my standards." It's not as if they're particularly high, but nevertheless, I just don't meet an awful lot of eligible/single lasses. Nor would I like to be misconstrued as a creep/asshole.

Anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes are not data.

Of the two women I know who I know attempted suicide, one tried it twice and the other three times.

Anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes are not data.

Yeah, that's why I put the word "often" there.

-- Tuomas (lixnix...), November 15th, 2006.

if you want the rules to disappear why is it you who's coming up with the shitty generalizations all the time?

god, tell me about it :(

all it takes now is for tuomas to say "yes it's gendered but only under the specific conditions of western culture" and we'll have a really productive discussion on our hands...

(xx-post)

that is psychology as i know and use it

The thing is your "feminist" slant leads you to see patterns that aren't there. You dumped a girl because she liked to cook for you! If your "vision of the future" (sorry for the tone of my previous post but phrases like that ring 'up-own-ass' alarm bells) precludes partners from being nice you can keep it.

You're miles of the money with "if they still have the social network to help them, they won't try it again" whether you say "often" or not - "occasionally" might have been closer. Every girl I know who has attempted suicide has done so more than once, all received as much help as everyone around them could give. Social networks are great, but sadly not a cure for suicidal depression.

Well, as I said a suicide attempt can be a cry for help. Yeah, I probably shouldn't written "often", but comparing the 4:1 ratio to the reports on attempted suicides still seems to suggest suicide is a different kind of solution for men.

i suppose i'm saying that i suspect there are many factors influencing such a stat which may interact in different ways, obviously related to gender, but i think it's really simplistic to say that a generalisation could explain the discrepancy.

personally I can't see any other major explanation for the 4:1 ratio except that women tend to have a better, wider social network to rely upon in times of trouble.

no disrespect, but that's fucking stupid. if they have a better, wider social network then why the fuck are they attempting to commit suicide more!

in such a generalised world, women could also
1. feel a greater sense of obligation to e.g. parents, acquaintances, whose lives will be affected by one's own suicide, and not want to make other people miserable, and therefore stay their hands;
2. be more squeamish about blowing their heads off with a shotgun, prefer more uh 'gentle' measures such as putting yr head in the oven, slitting your wrists in a nice warm bath, taking overdoses of sleeping pills, etc.;
3. have some kind of innate survival instinct that kicks in and stops them from taking it all the way, for all i know! as how you're supposed to be incapable of suffocating yourself.

-- gem (gemilyinterrupte...), November 16th, 2006 10:59 AM. (trisk) (link)

SEXIST!

I don't think women choose pills and wrist slashing *because* they're inefficient methods. Maybe there's something in the psyche that makes men more likely choose guns and jumping off buildings - I know if I try to imagine killing myself I never imagine chewing paracetamol.

(Every successful suicide I know of has been a hanging at home - one woman, two men)

First of all, I didn't dump her, and the thing I mentioned wasn't even the biggest reason why out relationship ended. And I didn't find it problematic that she was being nice, rather than that she always wanted to do certain things because that's what women are supposed to do. Can't you see that this sort of imbalance can be a problem if you're looking for someone with whom to be on equal terms?

Gender and suicide: In the Western world, males die much more often than females by suicide, while females attempt suicide more often. Some medical professionals believe this is due to the fact that males are more likely to end their life through violent means (guns, knives, hanging, drowning, etc.), while women primarily overdose on medications. Others ascribe the difference to inherent differences in male/female psychology, with men having more of an operational mindset and women being more aware of social nuance. [6] Typically males die from suicide 3 to 4 times as often as females.

Excess male mortality from suicide is also evident from data from non-western countries. In 1979-81, 74 countries reported one or more cases of suicides. Two of these reported equal rates for the sexes: Seychelles and Kenya. Three countries reported female rates exceeding male rates: Papua-New Guinea, Macao, French Guiana. The remaining 69 countries had male suicide rates greater than female suicide rates. [7]

in such a generalised world, women could also
1. feel a greater sense of obligation to e.g. parents, acquaintances, whose lives will be affected by one's own suicide, and not want to make other people miserable, and therefore stay their hands;

Okay, I do think both of these can be true also, so I should've written "one major explanation among others". I'm sorry. I still believe it is a major explanation if not the only one.

ok also, well i dunno about relying on data that is more than 25 years old! quite apart from wikipedia not being my resource of choice in general

trust a girl to do maths

dude sick

wtf with all the gender stereotyping?

Tuomas hates men. Typical feminist :-P

there's something amazing maddening about an explanation which is simultaneously circular and self-contradictory!

(Also, in many cases a father of the family commits suicide exactly because he has failed to provide the family, and therefore failed as a man.)

(x-post to Ken)

wtf with all the gender stereotyping?

You don't think gender norms have real effects on people? I don't say this is the case with all the men or all the women, but the suicide rate thing seems to be one case where gender does have an effect on how many people behave.

So why do more women than men attempt suicide? Don't you realise there are men who think about it every day but don't act on it *becaue* of the effect it would have on e.g. their children.

xposts

No one is saying gender norms DON'T have an effect, Tuomas. What's winding people up is that your explanations or theories for this behaviour are at best facile and at worst totally wrong.

Also it's slightly comical that your solution for breaking down behavioural boundries between men and women is 'behave exactly how I think women behave'.

but tuomas you then immediately leap to: since "gender has something to do with it", i am entitled to help myself to my favourite gender stereotype and argue that it is therefore PROVEN BY SCIENCE while allowing myself to luxury of (a) "bemoaning" this "fact" and (b) feeling superior to anyone else foolish enough to share my belief in it!

once you let loose the word "socialising" you can gussy up ANY EXPLANATION YOU WANT (see earlier post for example)

You seem to suggest that in every suicide attempt people know 100% sure they're going die, instead of the said attempt being a way of trying to get people's attention. The statistic posted above reads like this:

* More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 3:1

Which doesn't tell how serious the reported attempts were. Maybe women use suicide attempts as a way of getting attention more often than men, but are less likely to go all the way through. Also, it could be that men are more ashamed of suicide attempts and report them less often (or they're just less inclined to even talk about such personal matters). I don't think the difference between the 3:1 ratio of reported suicide attempts and 1:4 ratio of succesful ones is explained only by the fact that women choose more feminine methods of offing themselves (though it no doubt is one contributing factor).

haha, i think reporting your own suicide is the reason why women often fail.

"Hello 999 erm yes sorry to trouble you, I've just slit my wrists, just to let you know like for your monthly report."

Whereas men obviously pick themselves up, dust themselves off and go on being manly and stuff, unable to admit to anyone that they (1) need help and (2) have fucked stuff up.

Men be proud creatures, women be wusses. Have you learned NOTHING from this thread?

Mail, shrly?

Yes, Tuomas wants everyone to act like stereotypical women, then he won't go out with them because they act like stereotypical women.

SHUT UP, STOP WHINING AND GET A LIFE

Also I agree with mark s that "achieved suicide" and "failed suicide attempt" are categorically different things which may be explained in different ways.

stumbling to the A+E dept is also POSSIBLY another reason why women fail at suicides!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xpost

Old Joke: I don't trust nothing that can bleed for a week and don't die.

I'm really sorry, truly I am.

I wasn't talking about just that, but don't you think that suicide attempt where you're mostly looking for help (and in the end might not go all the way through) hurts people less than one where you're 100% sure you're gonna die.

Anyway, my point was related to a wider issue of social networks. If you view the fact that women's suicides are less likely to succeed as partly caused by the fact that they're also ways of trying to get attention and help, then person in question still has to think someone can possibly help them. So maybe men are more likely to pull all the way through partly because they feel no one can help them.

the assumption that "attempted suicide" and "achieved suicide" are examples of similar -- ie slightly differing but essentially comparable -- phenomena may purely be a result of GENDERED SOCIALISATION, tuomas

Huh?

to be fair to tuomas, i don't think his solution to the problem (of discovering patterns which will tell you in advance who it is going to work out with) is ANY more contradictory or self-deluded than any of the rest of us: it's just he is convinced he is also beaming us important messages from an advanced ethical dimension

This was never my intention. I know that I made a sweeping generalization which certainly doesn't explain every male suicide, but I feel that it might be one important explanation, which is why I think it's worth considering and discussing about.

Hah!

I don't.

I don't.

Well, don't you think one of the reasons women succeed less often in commiting a suicide is that in the end they pull off because they don't want to hurt close ones?

Yeah, because putting the burden of having to keep them happy enough to not do it again is in no way upsetting to one's friends.

i need to count the pain.

the point where you go "HUH?" is a very concise neat proof of that (so hurray me! yet why do i feel it is but a PYRRHIC VICTORY?)

tuomas: "holes? what holes?"
mark s: "the fact you cannot see the holes is the result of GENDERED SOCIALISATION!"
tuomas: "but it is surely undeniable that women achieve suicide triumph less often because they don't want to hurt the people in their unfair social networks who have helped them be better women and thus fail in their merely symbolic suicide victory bids?"

(x-post)

"and thus fail successfully in their merely symbolic suicide victory bids?" would be more tuomas-esque perhaps

if the person in question think she's hurting her social network less this is proof she is not competent at social networks therefore not a proper woman QED

The reason I wrote "Huh?" is because I genuinely didn't understand that one sentence of yours. I'm still not sure if I do. Maybe you could elabourate on that?

I just read an article about suicide letters. It was so heartbreaking reading them. Sometimes they (men and women) asked for forgiveness, sometimes it was just so cruel (hurting the person, laying such a guilt trip on the ones left behind) and another time a woman explained why she had killed her kids (and herself).

(x-post)

I liked this thread better when it was funny.
-- teh_kit (kittenslikemil...)

Tuomas banned funny from this thread way above, saying "jokes had no place on a serious thread". Despite the fact he'd just made one.

First of all you're not giving your friends the right over their own life. People have a right to kill themselves (no matter how sadding it is on our part). You're basically saying your happiness is more important than their state of mind. If they are chronically depressed (or whatever), I can understand their want to die and their choice to do so. I know if a friend of mine died, I'd probably say it's unfair but *neutrally* I'd say that my friendshould not think about me. Does that make sense? Secondly sometimes death is better than life. Sometimes it's better to let go.

Well, I'd like to think that me killing myself is gonna hurt my loved ones more than me stopping at the last moment. I don't think in a situation like that you're really thinking about the consequences of the latter choice, so in the end it could be more selfish, but that's probably not what you think at the moment.

xpost

I'm not sure the extent to which last-ditch fear of hurting loved ones figures, whether you're male or female.

would you prefer them alive because their existence in your life is something you love to have, even though for them living is incomparably painful and they are completely sure that there is no way their situation will improve? Would you prefer them alive because you think that, somehow, someone (or someones) will be able to 'fix' them and their circumstances? Would you prefer them alive because if they committed suicide you - and all those tangential people they knew and socialised with, who'd hear of their killing themselves on one grapevine or another - would feel like it was your/their/society's fault in some way?

xpost uh also what Nath said.

I think that selfishness is an overrated argument in suicide analysis. People who commit suicide (and are depressed) do think of themselves but I hardly guess that they don't think about others. Also it's like the Other saying: THINK ABOUT ME. The hell with that, you should be saying: the future can be different.

Oh yeah, I want to state that I love single, married, male, female, English, American, Belgian, Dutch, happy, depressed, tall, tiny, fat, underweight, cool and nerdy people equally.

I've been the selfish "me me me" one in the past here, btw (I'm a girl! It's not my fault! It's what we do!). I wouldn't do it to anyone now because I have gained some perspective as I've grown up. Also, it's not fair. If I genuinely wanted to kill myself, I would. If you want talked out of it, you aren't doing it right.

I feel quite uncomfortable talking about this on such a public thread - I'd like to say this is not meant to be me saying "THIS IS HOW IT IS" at any point, so yes, cos I know people on this thread have gone through things like this and you know. DISCLAIMER FROM ME.

So hey stopping to look at this thread at lunchtime was a good idea...!