not including hotel bars obv, they are a third thing entirely

I think pubs, even if they don't have a 'Dog and Duck' type name, still have to have enough pubby decor trappings in terms of the mirrors, tables, coving, carpet etc. A pub is maybe just a look to a bar.

pubs have names where you have no idea* why anything wd be called that (partial exception that really isn't: monarch's names, long forgotten military slebs — clearly you do know why, here, except you don't know why STILL... eg who gives a toss enuff abt William IV to go into a place named for him?): by contrast bars have names where you can tell the sensibility being drawn in, for it is here and now and close by in the world

*unless you've researched it or stuff

Someone point me in the direction of the ontological theory that explains how classes of things do not have to be definable by a set of rules. It's family resemblances, innit?

Mark s's quest is entertaining but fruitless.

Unless it's a really *obvious* name. My local pub is named after the palace just down the road, which is also the name of the street it's on. It's definitely a pub.

(as Andrew said, you can just tell).

Is All Bar One a pub or a bar? If the latter, what of the Piano & Pitcher?

Another thing - a pub can't be 'upstairs', 'downstairs' or otherwise tucked away. It must present itself boldly.

eg calling it after a nearby palace: as a naming strategy it's kind of random and self-deprecating surely?

certainly the one in angel IS a bar

all bar one and the pitcher and piano are both bars/restaurants surely? (haven't been in a p&p for ages so forget)

BEING ABLE TO SEE IN: you can see into a bar from the street but not a pub!!

if the food is merely an adjunct activity, on whatever scale, then the carpet stays = no thought has been given to spillage

This might be an exception. I can only think of one other pub with a v. obvious name like that; all the other drinking places named after their location I know are bars.

it's not abt whether they serve food or not, it's about whether serving food is considered so central to the activity that the carpet needs to go

this quest is meaningless unless we accept that some changes cause a bar to become a pub (or vice versa: is that possible?)

(otherwise you just draw up two big lists and say everything in this column is a pub, in that a bar)

caitlin i still don't see why it's an OBVIOUS name: yes i know it's a fairly common naming strategy, but the roots of the reasoning are clouded — why is calling yr pub the same as the area it's in a thing to do?

Pubs have cider on draught. Bars do not. End of debate

I can prove none of this, and I'll be interested if someone can give me counter-examples.

Both.

a bar is bright and horribly clean. Has some sort of weird modern name.

a pub is old and smells of beer. Has a trad sounding name.

I prefer pubs, but then I only ever go to pubs when it is a FAP.

Sometimes pubs become bars after "refurbishment". I was in a bar last night which had previously been a Firkin. Whether Firkins are pubs or not; the new reincarnation of the place is *definitely* a bar.

"let's call our pub the hackney!"
"why would that attract anyone? ppl who live here already know which pubs they want to go to, and ppl who don't are surely by defn not attracted to being in places with the name 'hackney' — or they WOULD live here"
"i know — the name isn't there to attract a clientele, bcz it's a pub and that's not what pub names do!!"
"aha i get it: the hackney it is"

bars usually have the obligatory australian/irish/student barman and they do not sell 4 pint carryouts.

- and don't get me started on giant fuckin jenga players..!

Have you invented a time machine? Can I come?

"wasn't this place called [xxx] last week?" = it is a bar

but then of course the grey area is way bigger than decided area, which is no good to frank bcz not a good guide to how we use the words deep into the grey area, as we clearly do

I was serious about my cider on draught thing. I don't think he can go far wrong with that criterion. Soon he will learn the difference at first sight. Go on, give me counterexamples to the cider rule that don't come from the disputed chain pub/bar area.

cider on draught is an interesting criterion bcz it clearly CAN'T be judged prior to arrival (ie it as an element of "content" rather than "packaging") => i deem it epiphenomenal but only by hunchwork

("content" vs "packaging" is hardly a cast-iron opposition of course, since the ppl attracted by the packaging of an establishment swiftly go on to make up its content)

In a bar, I can ask for a white Russian or some vodka/cranberry combo and get what I've asked for. In a pub, they will have to ask me how to make one or I will take one look around and see that there is no way it's gonna happen so choose something else (the amount of times I have had to tell some pub-ning how to build the perfect Bloody Mary...arrgh).

Also pub staff ask you if you want ice in your drink if it involves shorts and barstaff don't, it's part of the service.

AB1, S&L, P&P are all PUBS albeit 'feminised' pubs. I hate them ALL.

* Unless it's a whisky or brandy.

to me, pubs = where i buy pints (at least early in the evening - once drunk this can go out the window), bars = where i buy bottles of wine or cocktails. admittedly there are exceptions (although the only one springing to mind is the embassy bar, where i tend to buy pints but wd def say it is a bar).

Can anyone tell me why bar staff insist on putting a slice of lemon into every short I order with a coke or lemonade mixer? This is prevalent in both pubs and bars.

Still, generally, studenty bars excluded, bars have fewer pumps. They will *never* have more than four beers on tap, whereas a pub that didn't have at least six would be a poor pub indeed.

Like you say, though, if I see a lot of draught pumps I do think I'm in a pub. And generally speaking, Tavern Snacks are not available in bars.

As to the American = higher standards generally expected of bar staff, I disagree in my case as I have lived here for more than a decade. I remember when all I could drink from a pub was vodka and Britvic orange and going to buy cranberry juice for £4.50 in Fortnum's to give everyone in my flat sea breezes. Things have gotten much better here but there's no real tipping culture to bribe bartenders into making you a stiffer drink.

pubs and bars are both cool when they are doing what they are supposed to do. anything in the middle is ugh

like, early in the night, you want PUB. it should be local, it should have old people in, you should ddrink beer, the carpet should be stained and dirty. there should be geezers. there should be plenty seating room to spread out in. there should be no music.

assuming there is goign to be no club the bar comes later, the bar has got to be the complete opposite. there should be music, it should be dark and neon, hopefully there should be some sort of robot, electroclash airheads with asymetric fringes should be snorting coke in the toilets, juan maclean records should be playing, there must be beautiful people.

no inbetweens ok

they shouldnt be played, not in a bar, not anywhere

first pub
second bar
third club
end of night russian bar

Martin is also kind of right, though too didactic, about the building. As I said earlier, a pub cannot be tucked away upstairs or in the basement. It must dominate the ground floor of the building (inc. frontage). Though of course, many bars can also do this, and still not be pubs.

Irish pubs can be weird - the real ones in crappy little towns. They often don't fulfill the normal look of a pub from the outside, especially if they are in a modern building. That one where he gets beaten up in 'I Went Down', for example.

This points to the difference between U.S. usage and British. As brg30 says, it's a pub if it has "pub" in the title, otherwise not. The title is to connote "Britain," which is considered high-class but in a stolid way, so pubs are upscale in that they're clean and serve big burgers and designer beers, but they're glamourless. U.S. bars are carpetless to accommodate the spillage of blood and barf.

So, what's better, "pub rock" or "bar band"?

Roogalator vs. Blueshammer: FITE

A 'vibe' eh? Interesting. All Bar One is definitely ruled out then.

That is all.

I expect pubs to sell cider, real ale and stout. I expect bars to sell brightly coloured synthetic alcopops.

Much of this will change too when the licencing laws change. Student bars are bars by the above definition because that is how the define themselves (though they would have more physically in common some times with pubs).

English pubs tend to be more loungey than Irish ones in my experience.

Pete this thread is a wake-up call to those of us who have neglected the publog. (ie everyone but you Tim and Starry)

Man, I love that pub and I ain't been there in two years nearly. I need to go back.

BTW, pub = The Charles Bradlaugh in Northampton.

Booths are fantastic for small groups - you can sit and scheme cosily surrounded by the mighty oak (or facsimile thereof). Useless for more than about 5 people though.

The Shakespeare at Victoria Station used to have a CAVE underneath with booths (I think it was the shakespeare).

If only that were still the case.

ie, there is no difference

End of debate.

*this threshold may go up in central London.
**unless it's happy hour or student night or some bollocks.

oh i dunno.

i think what suzy calls "feminised pubs" are the cursed middle here viz ALL BAR ONE (which is fine for eg office xmas lunch)

The other think they all have in common is the light wood - so they could be called pined & wined pubs.

Ricky T has an important point here. One important difference between pubs and bars which is fast disappearing is that bars are all one room whereas pubs, traditionally, were separated into the Saloon and Public Bar. Even though the divides have been knocked down in lots of pubs, many still have separate rooms for playing pool ect ect. Bars may have alcoves, but are rarely if ever have separate rooms.

"On tap" isn't the important thing, it's what comes out of the taps. And whether it is refrigerated or not.

If the person in charge is referred to as the landlady or landlord, it's a pub. If they have a dog, it's a pub. If the sign comes out of the wall at right-angles and it's suspended from a wrought iron structure or it is on a separate post outside, it's a pub.

What about taverns?

My sister is a bartender and waitress at a bar/short order grill three blocks from her house which some ilXors have even been to drink/eat at (see Minnesota thread). It has regular, local customers (inc. one pro US football coach) who are in there a few times each week, know the names of bar staff, and don't go anywhere else in the area for a quick drink.

My dad, for years, was manager of 'sports bar' full of regular, known-to-staff-by-name guys who participated in the bar's softball team, which went to play other teams from other area bars also comprised of locals (sports bar locals are alwayus the guys who were jocks in school, long since retired to armchair sports, like my dad the 300-lb former Junior Olympics athlete).

A local bar in the US will have a few different beers on tap and burgerish food is served with fries in those plastic baskets lined with wax paper. In fact, 'local' rule of thumb for the US is whether or not the bar exhibits some kind of Burger Pride.

Frank: a 'tavern' is a local bar in Wisconsin.

JtN, the function is *exactly* the same as the function of local pubs here (such as the nice one under our flat). Americans go to their local bar to watch the game on Sunday and eat either brunch or burgers or even Sunday roast, you *do* have affiliated sports teams, a dart board and billiards, and usually you can bring the family in with you to eat the food.

Headfuck of the Day: you can only buy Tavern Snacks crisps...in pubs.

*invalid if australian

But Jer (if I can call you that), this now is the middle. Back in the '50s, when Fiedler wrote his essay (about comic books!), the process by which the art freaks allied with the juvenile delinquents to create successive bohemias and those bohemias were then absorbed into the middle and so new JD-art-freak bohemias had to break off, this played out over years, whereas now it takes about two weeks. And I think Leslie underestimated how much art-darkness already was a part of the "middle's" values: when the freaks separate out, they don't at first come up with values counter to the culture but rather take those values to extremes, act out contradictions.

But I'm being glib here, and don't really remember the essay. I think what underlay it (though I don't remember his addressing this directly) was official America's refusal to acknowledge limits on equality, and so the rejection of literacy embodied by comic books was also a rejection of standard class mobility but still further a rejection of conventional "working-class" immobility - so it's sort of like how Elvis was a movement up into flash and style rather than a movement up the ladder. And the well-spoken Leslie-Jew-boys moving into lumpen flash and style is not at all like hanging out in proper boozers. He's seeking the hero boys doing the battle of good and evil in the City of Night.

I remember sometime in the '70s reading about a New York bar called "The Saloon" that ran into trouble when someone unearthed an old, unrepealed prohibition-era ordinance that forbade an establishment's advertising itself as a "saloon." So the bureaucrats said, sorry guys, you're going to have to rename. So the bar reopened as "The Balloon."

-- gareth (gareth@norfolkwindmills.com) (webmail), February 3rd, 2003 1:14 PM. (gareth) (link)

I prefer to call them Places of Hell and Rugby Shirts.

Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I want handbag clips and big windows. Just fuck off with your marketing. Fuck off. < / bete noir>

Jerry, I think the whole point about locals is that generally only locals go there, so you not beiong local tended to prohibit you feeling a sense of belongng and finding out about the bars baseball team ect ect.

Anna's spot on with the Rugby Shirts.

This sounds like the ultimate test of an ILX FAP -- how many of us would gather specifically to go to this place?

Sorry, that was off-topic, but seemed relevant to "The Middle Vs. Both Ends."

Alas, on the 'other routines please,' Our Hero has asked for a reduction in use of this phrase. He must be summoned by alternate means.

(i still think i'm right: it's an anxiety of influence deal)

It begins!

It is unfortunately untrue.

Though mention of Queen Mum brings up the spectre of Gin Palaces.

I.e., called Julie Burchill penny dreadful and a dreck columnist, but when I first read your post, Mark, I thought you were saying that he launched into the writerly equivalent of "Please Please Please," complete with cloak routine.

What is the feminized pub again?

I had a bit of trouble distinguishing bars from clubs in England. Gareth: Was Mother a bar? And if so, why was there a line to get in?

Let us not foget the late '90s bar offshoot (US) -- the lounge!

I don't what Mother is or was, but if there was a queue I cann't accept it as a pub. People do queue for bars, as they can be trendy.

The one US English-style pub I was taken to, in San Diego, was horribly wrong, a bad pastiche rather than an authentic transcription.

But that is right for us, I mean, I think you got the real thing, the real pastiche.

San Diego has lots of Blarney Stars, yes? Or is that just where I end up my relatives?

Jerry's description of a pub-like Denver establishment sounds like a sports bar, which I don't see entering into the UK picture: I assume sports get watched at pubs? Sports bars are terrible. Absolutely terrible. They are like bars, not pubs (pubs, in their constant attempts to be like something out of Dubliners, only show European soccer) -- only they're not like bars, insofar as the point is mainly to serve people chicken wings and beer while they watch events.

Sorry, had to point that out but otherwise the American 'pub' locator you suggest is flawless.

Urgh, Hooters. A pastiche of this has opened on Clerkenwell Road called HONKERS and it is morguishly empty every time I pass.

(Ha, okay Amateurist, I have not been to Nevin's in years, but yes it used to be a fine example of a "pub" without the word "pub" in its name. But now they have, like, John Cale and Yo La Tengo bookings -- and where are they doing this stuff? did they take over the ex-Cajun place next door to put in a stage? -- so clearly they are trying hard to become a "bar" and not just a bar but a venue. Which sucks so far as I can tell because surely their oh-so-terrific shepherd's pie will eventually be a thing of the past.)

This is only funny if you have been to Fado before, seeing as it's a CHAIN restaurant that serves dishes like baked brie and munster and pear quesadilla. Sounds really authentic, hm?

Kill people like this the next time you see them, please.

Sorry, Suzy - I have lost track of where you live. No offence was intended.

Our backward circle is still on 'puppies', I'm afraid.

Naw, Gabor's wasn't pub-like and wasn't a sports bar, just had the game on. "Fuck and Run" was on the jukebox.

You lucky, lucky circle.

Unemployed NYCILXCHIXOR! Let's open this!

[From Television Theme Song]

Making your way in the world today
Takes everything you've got
Taking a break from all your worries
Sure would help a lot
Wouldn't you like to get away

All those night when you've got no lights
The check is in the mail
And your little angel
Hung the cat up by it's tail
And your third fiance didn't show

Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name
And they're always glad you came
You want to be where you can see
Our troubles are all the same
You want to be where everybody knows your name

Roll out of bed, Mr. Coffee's dead
The morning's looking bright
And your shrink ran off to Europe
And didn't even write
And your husband wants to be a girl

Be glad there's one place in the world
Where everybody knows your name
And they're always glad you came
You want to go where people know
People are all the same
You want to go where everybody knows your name

Where everybody knows your name
And they're always glad you came
Where everybody knows your name
And they're always glad you came

The first step? Take a flight at Heathrow and flip through the CD racks at the Air Mall. You'll find funny names, lots of cover versions, and more compilations than you can shake an ambassador at. The most famous comp is Now That's What I Call Music! and England's already up to Now 53 in the series. (That's right, we stole the idea.) If you think it's just kids buying sugary kid stuff, go hit a pub anywhere in England. The social space is the blueprint for the product—pubs themselves are compilations. Unlike those American bars that nurture misanthropy by keeping everyone drunk in near darkness, English pubs are often light and spacious. Some even have gardens out back, and many do plenty of business during daylight hours. Families have dinner, students meet for drinks, kids run around the pool table, and gnarled football nuts plunk down an empty glass, walk over to the jukebox and put on Kylie or Robbie at all times of day and night. Yeah, mate, dance pop. Nice beat, I can sing along, the missus enjoys it. Wot are you looking at?

Pubs with "family rooms" classic or dud?

still, good to know that the words to the verses we never hear are so awful

Family room != nursery - as many families seem to think.

like, early in the night, you want PUB. it should be local, it should have old people in, you should ddrink beer, the carpet should be stained and dirty. there should be geezers. there should be plenty seating room to spread out in.

There are no old geezers in the Foundry. There never are. This precludes it from being a pub. There's no carpet either, but this isn't a prerequisite.

Guess I ain't been to a pub. Why would you carpet anyplace where the liklihood of spills is so high as to be mathematically inevitable?

a bar is just one main 'bar' room, or a stupid trendy name that toffs use to call any place where people sit and drink ale.

carpets and geezers are not an issue.

no mention of uncarpeted bars in my post, are you talking to me ?

anyway you misread my post completely if you are. where did i say that no drinking took place in the other section?

The Foundry has plenty seating room to spread out in?

As I said to Matt last night, no old geezers, no pub.

What I think of as the classic model is:

1. an uncarpeted saloon (or public) bar with few tables, often high standy-uppy ones. This is where the serious drinking is done, and where the Real Men are.

2. a carpeted lounge bar where the ladies can sip their gin and tonics accompanied by the unreal men, where you watch your language and sit down at a table and maybe get a bite to eat.

3. possibly some snugs which in my experience are rarely carpeted, poss due to virtual impossibility of getting a vacuum cleaner in and around them.

I suspect the phenomenon of completely carpeted pubs is a fairly recent thing, likely dating somewhere between the 50s and the 70s, when lots of pubs were trying to move upmarket and effectively re-fitted both bars as lounge bars. This may also correspond to larger-scale industrial production of cheaper and more resilient carpets made of modern materials but I know nothing of the history of carpet making and therefore have made this factor up.

I grew up just down the road from Axminster, I've no excuse.

rubbish, there are plenty of places that people class as 'bars' around our way with an abundent amount of old geezers hogging the corners of the bars.

obv brown carpet is the way to go.

Well yeah. The whole idea of wall-to-wall carpet dates from the 50's the the 70's, much less in pubs. That don't make it a good idea. From the 50's to the 70's, wall-to-wall carpet was sometimes even seen in bathrooms. People went goddamn carpet crazy.

Pubs smell romantic and sickly. And sick-y. And like being 17. And like home.

I can't argue with something smelling like home. You love what you love. But my home smells a little less like vomit than yours does, I would guess.

r you might like to say, as Matt and Steve like to, that a pub is a traditional drinking establishment with wood and tables and hand pumps and carpet and (in extreme cases) horse brasses, while a bar is something which looks different and modern.

Or you can say that a pub is an establishment which sets out to accommodate a broad range of its local community while a bar tends to be more demographically focussed. Perhaps that would be better said as "a bar knows the word demogrpahic, a pub won't understand why it's relevant".

The Rosemary Branch in De Beauvoir Town used to have lots of wacky sculpture and painting and that but that seems to have calmed down a lot since it's been operated by the same people as the Swimmer and The Approach.

The Approach has an real actual contemporary art gallery upstairs where you can see proper contemporary art, some of which is really good.

pub explodes

Oooh, that's a good one.

I had no idea the Rosemary Branch had art, although I did win the pub quiz in their once. I gained an odd reputation amongst the collegues I was drinking with as being some kind of pub quiz genius, but I was just luck y with the questions.

So Wetherspoon'ses would be bars, then?

ale is not (cf. v seldom) sold in bars!

haha this could go on for some time.

More arguments for the foundary's pubpshness.

Just because gezzers are shaved bald and rather gay looking does not detract from their geezerishness.

The feeling The Foundry gives me is that it's aimed quite squarely at a Trendy Hoxton demographic. Edgy, y'know.

Ste: but how many types? one's not enough

the thing is that all the factors (architecture/design, 'content'/decor, clientele, range of products on offer, entertainment facilities, general atmos, historical significance etc.) do not stand up on their own as signifiers, but you have to be able to tick enough boxes for a place to be a proper Pub imo.

there, that's my personal opinion.

this argument is a lot like the 'what makes a big club?' argument.

Key difference for me is defined by their answer to this question: "Can I have a pint of bitter please?"

former can be defined by capacity i guess.

latter by spending potential, i suppose.

you can put a number to both, as your definition, and those near the threshold number are medium sized, which are neither big or small, and then the further from that number the bigger or smaller a club they are.

you can do that to define whether a piece of string is long or short, too. using some form of average (e.g. median) value of all pieces of strings in the world.

http://www.fancyapint.com/main_site/thepubs/pub2178.html

Errrrmmm... *studied*? I don't think so.

i dont often think about the outside. in that photo, it looks like birmingham 1975

which is preferred - bar or table?

This is partly because it's not a "watch the football" pub, it just has a couple of screens which show (apparently) random sporting events. I really like it in there, haven't been in for ages.

Gabbneb are you calling some kind of FAP or did you decide not to?

(I'd be well up (?) for a FAP if persons wanted to go to the trouble, but don't really know my schedule yet. I think I'm going to be free on a sat night (the 25), and perhaps the tuesday or wednesday of that week, but need to hear back from a friend and make some decisions first. I may or may not be going to a quiz night on the Sunday. Don't know where and I'm guessing it's not music-related.)

Foundry remains stubbornly undesignatable for me - scuzzy - check, lots on draft - check, wouldn't order a white russian - check; yet the suspended bondage dolls and narrow demographic. I would just call it a "student pub" and be done with it except it's not right next to any school and everyone in there is about 30.

they fail to mention that its probably one of the cheapest bars in the area, which for me is a great incentive. for that i am uninterested in their opinions on this point.

i may also.....gotocamden

Where is this pub/bar exactly? ;-)