SARS

Lets just say that riding the subway just got a lot less crowded. Its bump the war of the front page for the past week.

That said, I am not especially frightened of SARS yet- it may be highly contagious but the death rate seems relatively tame compared to many of the other threats occupying center stage of my imagination these days.

my mother, who I'm flying home to visit in april, is trying to pursuade me to wear a surgical mask on the plane because of SARS. same mother who packed vegetables no one'd ever heard of in my lunches at daycamp, while everyone else had lunchables. kholrabi, anyone?

oh teeny dont worry. i'll be fine. i already bought a small packet of surgical masks here in bangkok for like $2. they even have a burberry trim. ha!

This prolly will kill today's rally in stock price:

"News Alert: American Airlines Plane From Asia Quarantined on Tarmac With Four Suspected Cases of Mystery Illness On Board"

I'm am pretty upset about this whole thing - and rather disgusted that it's not getting more coverage. Of course, I've been reading all sorts of charming books about the Influenza epidemics and the various plagues that swept round the world, so maybe I'm jut oddly paranoid at the moment.

It's not surprising that stuff is arising in China, though - the proximity of humans, pigs, and chickens makes a ripe breeding ground for transmission and mutation of avian virus' to virus' that affect humans.

So, um - aren't they saying that SARD is a virus?

Mutation of the common cold is the last I read. At this point I dunno, Im just trying to stay out of the way of sneezing people.

Depends on who you ask.

Something to do with cutting back on the inhaled siliva transfered from hacking and coughing by the sick folk would be my guess.

The UN eh? Freaky. I should go poke around to see who does other then us and our southern neighbours.

Viruses and bacteria are both individually too tiny to be stopped by any sort of typical fabric mask. The trick is this - to travel from host to host, a virus or bacteria has to ride on a droplet of moisture, like the kind that you expel in a sneeze or cough. While not a perfect defense, a simple stretch of fabric over your mouth will prevent most diseases from entering your respiratory tract. For example, if we were attacked using biological weapons, there have been tests with rodents that have proven that a double layer of T-shirt fabric held over the mouth and nose stands an extremely good chance of saving your life. As they say with the 4/4 backbeat, it's cliché for a reason.

(anecdotal remark overheard concerning these experiments: it's a bitch getting folded fabric to stay on a mouse's face)

Tracer's right too - the fatality rate is still a lot lower than some other things you can catch.

Steve McCroskey: Johnny, what can you make out of this?
[Hands him the weather briefing]
Johnny: This? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl -

the proximity of humans, pigs, and chickens makes a ripe breeding ground for transmission and mutation of avian virus' to virus' that affect humans.

lame.

:-D

;-D

I just heard on the radio that the Australian government has advised it's people not to travel to HK, China , Vietnam or Laos. Take care Phil!

there doesn't seem to be a simple explanation for that one.
a large number of them are suffering from kafunsho due
to overenthusiastic monoculture tree farming. all the forests
have been logged and replanted with a single type of cedar which
grows particularly straight. this has caused a huge percentage
of japan residents massive, massive allergy problems.

but that's not the only explanation for the masks ...

it's like all the sleeping commuters. i've heard that someone
is doing a phd thesis on that topic ...

Thanks Chris [and Teeny]. I'm sure it'll be fine. the places i'm going to in China are nowhere near Hong Kong - like a 40 hour train ride away. And anyways, the Australian/American governements are always warning their citizens against travelling anywhere. If we all listened, our holiday options would be limited to Ibiza and Canada. Are you Cabbage Chris, by the way?

Now, that said, let's keep speculation to a minimum and discuss what's actually happening in our communities, and our concerns. Overtly racist stuff (and I'm still not convinced that there has been any, necessarily) will be deleted.

Just as a cautionary note tho: anyone who's familiar with the history of AIDS knows that there was a contingent of gay people who strongly opposed the city of SF shutting down the bathhouses. However, in that case it really was in the public interest to support this measure, not least to keep gay people alive. I mean plenty of right-wing anti-gay whatevas may have supported the measure for all the wrong reasons but if they had been shut down earlier many more ppl. would be alive today. So yeah.

Just wash yr hands after using the bathroom and before eating and cover your mouth when you sneeze. Jesus H. Christ.

BTW am I missing something? I don't pick up anything that could
be seriously classed as racist in the above.

I have a friend who's planning to go to China soon and this sorta put him off a bit but...

Also I think Ms. Laura's comments are a bit off, but honestly we can't pretend that China is up to the same standards as the more modernized world re: health risks, especially lately and in the hellish conditions of the Special Economic Zones in the coastal areas.

On the other hand, dense population is certainly more an issue elsewhere in Asia than in China where urban population is relatively light, tho I think that rural density is still higher than elsewhere. I mean urban overpop. is more a problem in Taiwan for example.

I certainly do not condemn anyone, but I stand by my calling out of certain poorly worded statements above.

1) There are plenty of ex-boyfriends of mine that I would be relieved if they moved to China. For good. Or any other far away country that is nowhere near me.

2) There are some of my ex-boyfriends that I would be *GLAD* if they contracted terrible diseases and died.

I was not implying in any way that these two statements were necessarily connected, other than that there is an outbreak of a terrible disease currently focused in China. The link was that I have an ex-boyfriend (who should be joining us shortly to discuss this - his name is Simon and please be nice to him, as he is a lovely fellow) who I do NOT wish to die horribly or require to relocate to far quarters of the world - who happens to be going to China.

ANYWAY!!! I hope that clears matters up. I am not a racist. I am an equal opportunity misanthrope and I hate all cultures and races equally. Thanks.

The stuff about disease vectors and the like I don't find racist at all, but it seems that is what people are taking offense to. When you have a country where almost medieval scales of poverty and overcrowding live cheek by jowl with very modern technology and global travel - you have a problem. It doesn't matter if that place is modern China or India or Victorian London. To state that this is an epedemiologist's nightmare is not racist, it's an educated guess.

To expand that idea to a hysterical "worry" about *all* Chinese people - whether they are third generation Canadians who have lived in Toronto all their lives, or Chinese tourists who might possibly be from a city 2000 miles away from the epidemic - *THAT* is when you venture into the territories of racism.

I mean, look what happened during the Foot And Mouth hysteria - tourism in the UK ground to a halt, and British passengers were detained at American airports and hosed down with antiseptic. Is that racism?

Smee, Nick just stayed with me for two days and he was *fairly* freaked out about Sars, but felt more susceptible than most people because:

He's on a plane about five times this month; this thing seems to use planes as flying petri dish. Well, planes are flying petri dishes anyway and nobody's gone - YO, AIRLINES, FRESH CABIN AIR! CAPICHE?

Britain's Chinatown is predominantly HK/Cantonese, with people and goods coming in and going out every day. This community is shitting itself about SARS, understandably.

He's going to Japan this summer and thinks the epidemic might spread to there and pick off a few of his friends, even though Japanese people are more conscious about hygiene because of the pop density etc. than western folk (example: it's very rude to blow your nose in public there).

He's paranoid. And has been told off.

Not covering ones mouth or nose when sneezing or coughing is the biggie of course, in this context.

Rather I'd say that there is a different sense of what is unhygenic
and what the taboos are.

My prediction is that unfortunately SARS will turn out to be
pretty serious here, once the authorities get around to admitting
it. And I think Japan is ill-equipped to deal with it, from
several standpoints.

I think you should give me and my country a little bit more credit. Yes the papers are blowing this out of proportion, its knocked the US war off the front prage completely in some papers. I don't think the papers are being antichinese or anti-imigration though, we leave that to the Reform Party.

The local paper says it best there I think.

Kate in PRC Travel Agent role SHOCKAH!

I think my actual problem is the image that some have of people from modern Hong Kong (or Calcutta, or Mexico City for that matter). The people that are flying to 1st World Cities from those places are probably not cavorting with chickens and pigs (and that's not a comment on people who actually Do live in proximity to or work with farm animals). I just feel that the throwaway statements above create prejudices about people based on where they're from (I'm from L.A. and have always had to defend it when traveling). This is definitely Not the same thing as racism. In fact I only brought that word up as a joke on another thread.

The truth is, I think you're all sexist, classist pedophiles.

with good reason. :-D

who (esp. of the more vocal contributors) has actually been to China? Just curious...

hate to say it but it only makes sense that eventually one of these superbugs would incubate and take hold in China - the scary part is that China (via frequent air travel to and from its major cities incl. HK) offers many more vectors for such a disease to take hold. It's an epidemiologist's nightmare.

t's not surprising that stuff is arising in China, though - the proximity of humans, pigs, and chickens makes a ripe breeding ground for transmission and mutation

The stuff about disease vectors and the like I don't find racist at all, but it seems that is what people are taking offense to. When you have a country where almost medieval scales of poverty and overcrowding live cheek by jowl with very modern technology and global travel - you have a problem. It doesn't matter if that place is modern China or India or Victorian London.

People seem to be pointing fingers at where the disease came from and making deregatory statements about China in the process. The same thing happened at the beginning of the AIDS crisis. Who cares if the disease originated in Africa? It doesn't matter. As AIDS demonstrated, and as everyone on this thread has acknowledged, with air travel, these things affect everyone. I think this thread has become a way for people to reinstate the rich-poor, north-south, west-east dichotomy. I think I'm seeing blame -- just as Africa was blamed for AIDS. As everyone realizes, viruses do not respect borders and infect across nationalities. Along with the blame I sense a disdain for countries that are not developed as we are. I've traveled in China and I didn't notice the hellish conditions that people on this thread are implying.

And on anther note:

Not to mention of course the continued hysteria since the sarin gas attack. And it hides the really, really bad teeth of most Japanese people too (no calcium in their diet).

I lived in Japan about a year after the sarin attack and there was no hysteria then, so I find it hard to see how it could be continuing now. As far as I know, that was seen as an isolated incident, and while of course it is troubling, I don't think people wear masks to protect themselves from it, which wouldn't be affective anyway. (They're not gas masks.)

As far as Momus's comment, if it wasn't a parody I have no words for it.

And by the way, I'm not calling anyone on this thread a racist. I wouldn't presume to make that kind of judgment. As I explained elsewhere, my 'delete racist thread' statement was an attempt at humor. I just find some of the statements above offensive.

I've been to Hong Kong, and there are plenty of parts of it - esp. in the New Territories - that resemble any other "peasant" village in any place in the rest of the world (that includes West Virginia! except I didn't see so many cars on cinderblocks in front yards, or front yards for that matter). The only modern, industrialized parts of the city that I can remember were in Kowloon and the parts (but not all) of the main island. We stayed with friends of my mom in a super-nice and expensive townhouse community near the American high school, outside the "Central" part of the main island (where most of the biz stuff is); in the bay beneath it there was an isolated fishing village with no roads leading to it.

The part where I brought up my (soon to be ex) roommate's concern were his concerns, not mine.

Actually, it's Monaco (really!). Bangladesh is it for non-"microcountries" according to a page on about.com

However, the coastal cities of China are indeed incredibly densely populated (as is Taipei).

I have been to China and Taiwan a few times and I can report never having seen a live chicken or pig, let alone had 'intimate' contact with one, Dan. Vast tracts of Shanghai, Hong Kong and other Chinese cities are as clean/hygenic/properous/safe etc.. as any city in the west. I've been to countries and cities that on the surface seem much more likely to be "breeding grounds for disease." It's not something that can automatically be assumed simply because of density or perceived hygeine etc.

And Dyson, although you might call it being overly PC, some of those comments do call to some minds things like "yellow horde", "they all look the same" etc.

(for the record, I think the "city" parts of HK are much cleaner than NYC - esp. the subways.)

I fucking hate the liberal shit where everyone is "poor in goods, but rich in spirit" and we watch National Geographic specials about their lovely culture and how they sing and dance and love and etc. because well yeah, that's just the way the human spirit is -- it perseveres, but meanwhile hello! let's talk about living in miserable hovels and the growing lack of health services and soforth because they're what needs to be dealt with. I thought, by the way, it was well-known epidemiological fact that Asia was historically one of the key centers for the development and outbreak of new diseases.

I actually dunno about the chickens pigs people in proximity thing -- my intuition tells me that most rural families can't afford to keep any significant livestock and that those who can don't need to live next to them, so its a small layer this would apply to. That said, in Malaysia I've seen plenty of households which keep a few chickens around. Though, again, I doubt if its the animal sitch as much as the human density and health services problem which tends towards the fermentation of new nasty bugs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with framing your statement as such. I don't think there's anything wrong with a serious, balanced analysis of what conditions may lead to disease. I just found those types of comments I highlighted to be lacking in that regard.

A troubling issue that hasn't yet been brought up is that the Chinese powers are reluctant to inform people both inside and outside the country as to the extent of the problem.

If that doesn't work try pasting the following url
into a browser:

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1680078

However, there are also discouraging signs that the denial of the SARS threat will continue long (as it did (does?) for AIDS and BSE). NHK news last night focussed on the problems in Hong Kong. The only Japan related SARS item is that most tour companies have cancelled package tours to hotspots.

There is plenty of daily traffic to/from all of the SARS hotspots.
And probably not as much checking as there should be. A colleague who returned last week from a trip Vietnam and Singapore was not even questioned. Another one returning from Hong Kong was not checked or questioned.

If SARS gets into the busy commuter trains in Osaka and Tokyo, there will be a massive problem.

???

Cities provide offer excellent opportunities for enterprising young viruses.

The frightening thing about this SARS is the degree to which it seems to be contagious. That combined with it's obvious nastiness
(though I agree that one can blow a 5% mortality rate out of proportion).

I was surprised by this thread because it hadn't crossed my mind that anti-Asian sentiment over SARS would be much of an issue. I'm not certain there's really been any on this thread, but I was sort of surprised to see conversation head in the direction of public health conditions in China.

Having been to Thailand, China, Hong Kong, Macau, KL, Manilla, Singapore, and Hanoi (among other places in se asia) I feel fairly qualified to say that I've seen some fantastic skylines etc. but also more widespread and nasty poverty than in the U.S., and generally gotten the feeling that there's a thing layer of "modern" over generally 18th century living conditions (at best), or perhaps that the two are mixed together pretty thoroughly even at the top layers of society.

All this "we have caught up with the west and are the asian TIGERS of INDUSTRY and COMMERCE hello MODERNITY we come to TRUMPET OUR ADVANCEMENT to the world" bullshit I thought died a hard & ugly death in '97.

Anyone can make a relatively small patch of pretty looking clean glass & mirrors (or even, with the right business enviornment a whole island like Singapore) but we're talking places where basic infrastructure like y'know paved roads is in short supply for the most part.

hstencil captured my sense of Hong Kong fairly well, at least in part. If you stick to the back of the island, the waterfront, and the top its fancy as all fuck but even in the compressed blocks that make up the front of the main island there's plenty of miserable living conditions to be found. And like he said, once you start to go inland...

and Sterling, this statement:
All this "we have caught up with the west and are the asian TIGERS of INDUSTRY and COMMERCE hello MODERNITY we come to TRUMPET OUR ADVANCEMENT to the world" bullshit I thought died a hard & ugly death in '97.
...seems really angry and I apologize if I'm pissing you off with something.

a question: have you spent much time in any really poor areas of the usa? people tend not to go to the very destitute places because they tend to be very dangerous as well.

I'm from Kentucky, my stepdad is from West Virginia, I've got family all over the South, etc., etc.

well we're pretty far off-topic ... perhaps we should consider a new thread?

Look, in the poverty one-upsmanship game, my firsthand knowledge of world poverty is pretty limited, extending only to what I've seen in and around the U.S. and Ethiopia. The latter is obviously not representative of anything but itself. But even just based on that, I am deeply skeptical of claims that poverty in the U.S. by and large approaches the scale and depth it can elsewhere. Not that it really matters if someone having a shit time in one country is technically worse or better off than someone having a shit time in another -- and not to say that people in the U.S. should "just be glad you're not in [x]" or anything stupid like that. But just to be truthful, on a really basic level, there are loads of people in the world exposed to conditions that are way different and in quantitative sense way "worse" than the bulk of the American poor.

And if you feel uncomfortable making that assumption about people in the rest of the world, feel free to listen to them: they're not happy about that shit either. It's possible to be proud of and committed to the culture of your non-western nation but still prefer to be relatively sure that you won't die of malnutrition or disease anytime in the near future.

but..

Can we talk about something else? So Mu, are you a KLF fan?

Of course; for Christ's sake, does it need to be said? Look, the whole point of U.S. government policy has always been to ensure a proper standard of living for its citizens (those that choose to participate, that is). Try John Nichols - he may have a one-track mind but he lays it bare. Fresh bananas at the supermarket every day of the week? You better believe it baby. Thank you, CIA! Thank you Kissinger!

anyways we're way off topic ...

I would have liked to see more compassion for SARS victims on this thread.

I did not know this. Remember my post further up there about my conspiracy-theorist-self that thought about stuff like this? HE IS NOW IN CONTROL.

And I think Mary does have a point, we're really not showing much compassion for the afflicted in here; I don't think it's much a lack of compassion in our hearts though, more like our general mentalist deconstructionizing-everything usual ways. But yes, certainly my heart goes out to those afflicted by this mysterious illness, as well as to all those living in fear due to their proximity to these cases.

And I'll have none of this maligning of stoned backpackers! :D

China, by virtue of having had y'know, a revolution and stuff (and to some extent Vietnam) I actually would agree is better off to a certain degree, in terms of social services etc. But things really went downhill from 1980 on. In 1984 or so the petitioners campaign put a stop to some of the more out of control market measures, and Tiananmen put another brake in the plans, but still. In all the coastal SEZs the "iron ricebowl" of guaranteed employment, basic necessities, etc. has been broken to provide armies of cheap labor. China really came the closest to overcoming the urban/rural divide but, again, the changes of the past 20 years really transformed its landscape. The NY Times has actually been running a real nice series of articles on conditions there.

Also I'm actually annoyed by my comments up there, because they make it sound like everyone in the non-western world is starving. Obviously this isn't true, a great number of people in any given place are doing quite well. I'm just always mystified that it's so controversial to talk about the fact that developing countries are, like, developing. They have modern stuff, some of which is great (better hospitals) and some of which maybe isn't (industrial pollution). And they have non-modern stuff, some of which can be great (traditional culture) and some of which isn't (poor health). The weird thing about this thread is that it's just a discussion of which of these things we should emphasize in the particular case of China: it looks to me like Mary and Spencer both got the sense, based on previous posts, that people imagined China as this stricken backwater packed with filth and livestock -- and as such want to correct that misimpression by stressing its middle-class modernity.

The problem with a discussion like that is that everything winds up based on your impression of someone else's impression of the place in question, which is just a complicated thing to deal with. The conversation becomes:

"Obviously I know it's a modern nation as well, but that doesn't change the fact that there's still poverty."

"Obviously I know there's poverty, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a modern nation."

I mean, what Mary's arguing isn't "China's all modern," it's "China is more modern than you people appear to think."

The fact is that I was reacting to very specific statements that did not require impressions of impressions.

but Sterling:

things really went downhill from 1980 on

b-but, what about five year plans, great leaps forward, cultural revolutions etc? Millions of dead from starvation and persecution might argue with you there. It's true that there might be increasing disparity, but not necessarily increasing despair. The poverty is more visible, but it's always been there, even through the glorious revolution. The supposed safety net is weaker, but life is certainly better according to relatives and friends.

The first five year plan was fairly rational -- it was the second which was utterly insane coz it was the great leap forward and yeah led to mass starvation etc. and the cultural revolution okay sure yeah massively disruptive & terrible etc. But through it all certain safety nets and norms of distributions were maintained, for the most part. You would never have what you have today -- vast roving armies of migrant homeless labor. From a purely public-health standpont this is a terrible thing.

Situation in Hong Kong SAR
The Department of Health in Hong Kong SAR reported 26 new cases today, compared with 23 yesterday. These figures represent a significant decline from the 155 cases reported on Tuesday and 60 reported on Monday. This trend suggests that the extraordinary control measures undertaken by the government are working. The Department of Health further announced that 89 SARS patients have been discharged from hospitals.

Update on cases and countries
As of today, a cumulative total of 2270 SARS cases and 79 deaths have been reported from 16 countries. This represents an increase of 47 cases and 1 death (in Hong Kong) compared with yesterday.

With the addition of the first probable case in Brazil, SARS is now being reported on four continents.

New cases were reported in Canada (4), Hong Kong (26), Taiwan, China (1), France (2), Singapore (3), the United States of America (13), and Viet Nam (1). Brazil reported their first probable case. Two of Romania’s three reported cases, one of the two cases in the Republic of Ireland, and the single case in Spain were removed from the list when determined to have other causes.

[who.int]

http://www.who.int/csr/sarscountry/2003_04_04/en/

i think the scale of movement of EVERYONE worldwide went up a notch probbly in the 80s — primary vector cheap-ish airflights — and this includes the chinese population mass, who are more mobile themselves now (as you yrself argued, re migrant labour) internally, plus the number of types of external contact has increased right down the class ladder

(pop exchange in the top levels of society is still a far lower level of contact-exchange, surely)

"A deadly virus has spread to another densely populated part of Hong Kong, and a top health official warned on Tuesday that cockroaches might be carrying the respiratory disease from apartment to apartment. Deputy Director of Health Leung Pak-yin told a radio program that cockroaches might have carried infected waste from sewerage pipes into apartments in another huge housing complex, Amoy Gardens, where more than a quarter of the city's 883 cases have occurred."

[/vent]

Go Ulaan Bator, Irkusk, Almaty. Although I've always wanted to see Kashgar, I've no idea whats there but it holds a sort of mythical place in my immagination, as most of central asia does. Have you read the Peter Hopkirk books?

Yes, everything is normal here.

Though between SARS and me eating a street sausage people thought I was a nut.

I'm trying not to get too upset on the subway...people have always come onto the subway while they're sick and coughing up a lung, that's just the joy of living in an urban centre where people rely on transit to get to work or the doctor. Unfortunately now everyone is a bit more wound up than usual and people are afraid to cough. When I eat sugar or drink beer I get a bit congested in the lungs and have to cough, even though I don't get SICK, but now I'm worried that if I go on a sugar bender people will think I'm some sort of vector. But hey, if that clears a circle around me then maybe that's not so bad.

This makes a lot of sense. Maybe it would be a good thing if this caught on here in the States, especially for people who are sick but still come in to the office. It's like "Yes, you are such a dedicated employee, but you could please not breathe when I'm around."

i always thought that had something to do with the pollution in the area.

and as for toronto, the situation is getting blown a touch outta proportion. i mean we had our fap last week without the transmition of a single disease.
er...
ya.

"I am going to claw everyone of you TO DEATH"

Masked palm civets have short fur that can be brown, orange, red or gray, with black bands on the head and feet. They eat mostly fruit, weigh up to 13 pounds and have bodies that grow up to two-and-a-half feet long, with tails of nearly equal length.

Judging from their activity and feeding habits, infected civets do not appear to feel any ill-effects from the virus. Only a small number of civets have been tested so far. Professor Yuen declined to say precisely how many, but most seemed to have the virus.

It is possible that the disease originated in another species and then spread to the civets, he said at a news conference this afternoon, while adding that he believed that the disease came to people from civets. While no tests have been done, it is also "theoretically possible" that household cats could become infected, as they are very similar biologically to civets, Professor Yuen added.

The raising and slaughter of civets and other exotic animals should be strictly regulated to prevent further outbreaks of SARS and possibly other new diseases, he said, while contending that a total ban on consumption of them could not succeed. "It is very difficult to stop a culture; it has been there for 5,000 years," he said.

There is nothing strange about the Sars coronavirus, they said; it certainly evolved from other known viruses.

One leading expert said Professor Wickramasinghe's letter "must be a joke"; another said it is simply ridiculous.'

surely it is the Professor's name that is the joke here?!@@

THEY GOT THE DISEASE BECAUSE THEY WERE EATING KITTENS DO YOU SEE?

GOD IS A TWEE BASTARD

AIDS - mysterious lethal disease whose appearance is attributed to a virus spontaneously "jumping" from one species to another

I need to not be so paranoid.

I for one am massively impressed by the way knowledge and research data about this disease has travelled through the international medical community. I think the way this has been handled by the WHO etc. is nothing short of amazing, really. Look at where we years ago with regard to similar new illnesses. Like Wow.