Jane Campion.

I'm a big fan of Holy Smoke, though I'm not crazy about the last five minutes. Winslet & Keitel were excellent excellent excellent. A very singular film. And big respect for the Neil Diamond.

Amateurist, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts as empathy is one of the last words I would use to describe her.

what a strange question!!

anyway, it's sad that directors seem to have a shelf life of about 5-7 years nowadays before everyone moves on. does anyone care about jane campion any more? some of her films are astonishing.

A few moments I loved in Sweetie: The dad asking the nodding-off slacker boyfriend "What I mean to say,Bob, is- has she got a chance?" about Sweetie's showbiz prospects; the Aussie cowboys dancing and yodeling to their boombox.

The Keats movie is good, even if Ben Whishaw is a little too emo even for this role. Lovely to look at w/out prettifying the early 19th century too much.

Can't agree with you about Portrait; Ian Softley's Wings of the Dove is a shrewder, better acted approximation of an unfilmable novel.

I mean, for all its subtleties, James' Portrait is easy to parse. Campion's movie is emotionally and rhetorically unreadable; you don't who does what to whom and why.

this aint Cliff Notes, bubba.

really like this bright star movie. in a genre (biopic) that i generally do not go for, i could find nothing wrong with it, it's really quite beautiful. and i was down with whishaw, i mean dude WAS a great doomed star-cross'dly-in-love romantic poet, if anyone is gonna be allowed to be emo...

wings of the dove was mediocre, campion's james movie was odd and not entirely successful but a good effort at least

s1ocki, I don't think it's fair to call this a biopic, esp since I saw the trailer for Amelia before this -- ugh. Keats' life is seen solely in terms of his relationship to Fanny Brawne, even if she's not in all his scenes.

Paul Schneider was much more polished than previously, even if his Scot accent may not have been.

Whishaw looked like he should be fronting the Stone Roses.

I liked this, tucked into Hoberman's review:

The requisite end titles suggest that Fanny consecrated her life to Keats’s memory; in fact, she married and had three children who eventually became rich on the sale of the letters she sensibly saved.

s1ocki, I don't think it's fair to call this a biopic, esp since I saw the trailer for Amelia before this -- ugh. Keats' life is seen solely in terms of his relationship to Fanny Brawne, even if she's not in all his scenes.

i agree. to me the best biopics are the ones that focus on a slice of the subject's life, rather than being cradle-to-grave.

but to tell the truth, fanny is more the star of this than keats is! she's in more scenes, it's more her story, which i think was a great choice. i mean even the title of the film could be said to refer to her.

yes, of course. like Amadeus ;)

(if amadeus was called "jealous guy")

i really want to see this, I think I love all her films. Yes, even In the Cut.

im waiting for someone to use teh expression "high campion"

I'm loving this movie.

Bright Star, that is.

it is great imo.

Another Campion film in which a small child serves as alert observer.

rly good film. ab-corn kills it.

ooh glad to hear this, will view.

yes i absolutely loved this. it took a while for me to adjust to the tone and work out what it was she was trying to achieve. initially i thought it was too modern, that the characters were speaking out of tone, out of period, that the characters weren't carrying themselves correctly and that she was making mistakes... but of course this is a huge part of what she is doing. i thought it was quite thrilling and unique, ultimately. the power dissipates a bit towards the end but there are some absolutely breathtaking scenes.

I love Whitshaw and Cornish's chemistry: how the movie captures the hesitation (nearly an hour passes before they kiss), then commits to their belief in the last half. Lots of effective uses of silence too (I love the scene in which Cornish just stares at Whiteshaw's dirty hand like it's a beautiful dick or something).

overrated.

Paul Schneider is best.

What the hell does that even mean, unless you're Armond White and distrust consensus?

The movie was well reviewed and made a few top tens. It wasn't even an award finalist.

what is your objection to this movie, besides ben whishaw looking too "emo" xxp

best how?

and what's overrated?

xxxp

I don't know what's his evidence. Consulting Metacritic a little while ago, not a single positive review lapsed into effusiveness.

is he saying that you are overrating whishaw and corninsh?

DR MORBIUS WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!

he's saying it's wrong to like a very effective movie.

I LIKE IT.

Not a patch on The Girlfriend Experience, tho.

but Soto, don't post DURING a movie.

is that an attempt armond white style "better than" thing?

whatev, kinda like Obama < Clintons, sad as it is

but Soto, don't post DURING a movie.

Eh, I'd four minutes left.

this was great! terrific use of sound & incidental music.

i have to say i didnt much like wishaw. i dont have a problem with him being fey and emo, b/c i imagine john keats probably was quite like that--but hes not v charismatic, which can make it hard to get why brawne and brown both have such intense things for him.

would have liked more poetry but im an english major.

i loved, loved the scene where brown yells at fanny--"i have failed john keats."

well, he's better casting than Mark Wahlberg at least.

I guess I assumed he was letting the pen do the seducing.

i find him very charismatic in fact i <3 him

Since Ben W has been Rimbaud-Dylan and Keats, I assume a Nick Drake biopic is in his future.

I guess I assumed he was letting the pen do the seducing.

― Fusty Moralizer (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:25 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah thats what i settled on too, but if that was the case, lets hear more of the poetry!!

Keats is one of my top five favorites, but I'm not sure how much voice-over poetry I'd want to hear; the extracts from "Endymion" and "Ode on a Grecian Urn" suffice.

yeah, I'm pretty sure Campion and her producers had a quota of poetry to stick to, it doesn't sell popcorn.

i'm pretty sure campion's decision was based more on alfred's rational than bums on seats.

that is, that i think she knew what kind of market the film was going to get already and that people don't really want to listen to v/o poetry was her rational for not including much of it.

Chances are, you're already a (a) Jane Campion fan and/or (b) a Keats fan to watch this anyway.

im still agog at the way this movie got completely oscar-snubbed

the scene where keats and brawn are walking hand in hand then freeze every time Toots turns to look back to look back at them, frankly... it made my soul swoon.

im still agog at the way this movie got completely oscar-snubbed

― wall•egina (s1ocki), Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:59 AM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah wtf

coulda been justifiably nominated for tons of categories too

Cinematography seems the best argument, but my favorite film of hers is The Portrait of a Lady, which I think got nom'd for Barbara Hershey and little else.

(yes Alfred, not letter-faithful to James and I'm fine w/ that)

plus no blue people

except this guy :(

no seriously, i would have no objection to this getting best pic/best director/best cinematography/best writing noms at least

i would have been ok w/ abbie cornish getting a best actress nod

yeah, she was fine, but I'd prefer Tilda Swinton and Maria Onetto.

topper - best cat

best poem

the scene where keats and brawn are walking hand in hand then freeze every time Toots turns to look back to look back at them, frankly... it made my soul swoon

^^^ this.

i would have been ok w/ abbie cornish getting a best actress nod

― max, Tuesday, February 9, 2010 3:15 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

otm

Maria Onetto for what?

"best actress"

o right

don't think the swints really "acts" tbh

u think "julia" is just how she is in real life?

where's suzy when you need her.

Maria Onetto was The Headless Woman, something Oscar wdn't touch.

they wouldnt dare

plus it premiered in cannes in 2008 which kinda rules it out

uh, from what?

oscar mayer wieners

not seen 'julia' because tilda swinton is in it.

but rly after all the (p much terrible) jarman films (and 'orlando') where she's more model than actress, can't think of one thing where i've been convinced she can act. 'clayton' included. a bit like vanessa redgrave in that way.

I don't like Jarman much either, w/ a few exceptions (Caravaggio).

The Headless Woman was on this year's Academy reminder list. The main eligibility rule is that a film open in LA for a one-week or longer theatrical run. Where it's played before theoretically doesn't matter (The Hurt Locker opened in Italy in '08). Chaplin got a writing nomination, iirc, for A King in New York about 15 years after it was made (Banned in the US when he was Red-baited).

also fuck fucking awards

agreed but bright star should have been up for lots nonetheless.

ya same. hate em but at the same time im annoyed

The Headless Woman was not good though, so I'm glad it was overlooked.

The Portrait of a Lady remains her, Kidman's, and Hershey's finest hour.

John Gielgud's death yawn!

'angel at my table' remains as good as any film ever. putting off seeing 'portrait' till i finally read the book.

Shout Factory is reissuing Portrait... on Blu in November.

thx! I had to watch a crappy VHS.

Think it's only possible to enjoy POAL if you haven't read the novel - o/wise it's p much a disaster (tho' yes, Barbara Hershey is amazing in it - the only actor who isn't horribly miscast.) The scene where Isobel dreams of having sex w/ her various suitors has to be one of the LEAST jamesian moments ever put on film.

putting non-Jamesian moments in is kind of the point.

I read the novel.

i hadn't read any james when i saw it but i've read lots now. on paper malkovich seems like good casting for osmond but he merely does that lizardy thing he does. he's a lazy actor but he does have something of osmond's singular weirdness: "His ambition was not to please the world, but to please himself by exciting the world’s curiosity and then declining to satisfy it. It made him feel great to play the world a trick."

the film is really not that great but it is enjoyable. it's obv. not as good as sweetie, an angel at my table, the piano, or bright star. although i'm probably alone in thinking it's not as good as "in the cut".

agree that Hershey is kinda magnificent but Campion really fucks up the concept with the casting of Malkovich. The whole point of Osmond is that he doesn't act villainous and is the epitome of correctness.

btw this Jamesian loves the film version of The Wings of the Dove.

but Malkovich can do that he just doesn't do it in this film. you could say that it's not Malkovich that's miscast but that Campion directs him badly. I'm pretty sure it's hard these days to get a performance from him that's not pantomime villian but i dare say it's possible.

Sure. Look at him in Ripley's Game -- Gilbert Osmond as Tom Ripley.

i've not seen it. is he good in it?

oh yeah!

btw Morbs and Jed: Anthony Lane reviews a book about POAL this week.

cheers, alfread. it's you and ward fowler that are the hardcore jamesians on here i think.

h/c jamesians shd stay away from movies

h/c jamesians shd make more movies

kinda with morbs on this one, and i read the book and generally love james and i thought the film was quite good with maybe a mistep or two not derailing the film at all.

hated wings of the dove movie btw

thing filming HJ is a waste of time bar The Innocents but filming like HJ wd be a brilliant idea

The Heiress!!!

excuse me i fancy myself a hardcore jamesian

cannot figure out what you like about the campion portrait, dr. morbs

also noodle otm; filming a James novel seems unworkable--remember that one year it seemed like there were a ton of James adaptations? iirc they were all terrible. the Washington square with Jennifer Jason leigh i remember finding moving, but not exactly good, and nog a patch on the story.

has anyone watched the Merchant Ivory film of The Golden Bowl? Knowing how they botched The Bostonians I stayed away.

ditto. The Bostonians is weird in that in some ways, the screenplay is a model of compression and fidelity, yet almost everything about the film is flat-footed and lumpen, where James is swift and subtle. So I'm not against Campion and her screenwriter adding to, or adapting James (the way the film deals with Isobel's Grand Tour is clever and funny), just that in almost every other way, the choices made, the WAY that things are said or presented so flatly, are just so much less effective than the book's twinkling ambiguity.

Interesting reading above that Rivette is a fan of the film version of POAL, because of course Celine and Julie is partly adapted from an early James short story - and is to my mind another one of the small select group of properly Jamesian movies (along w/ yes, The Innocents)

i haven't read the bostonians. someone put me off it, i can't remember the details though. should i read it?

There was a little bit of chat recently abt The Bostonians on the ILB 'What are you reading?' thread. I can't imagine that you wouldn't enjoy it, Jed, tho' The Master (never, imho, a particularly reliable judge of his own work) didn't seem to rate it. There's a famous letter James wrote when asked, on behalf of a "delightful young man from Texas", for guidance on reading his work. He supplied two slightly different lists:

1. Roderick Hudson
2. The Portrait of a Lady
3. The Princess Casamassima
4. The Wings of the Dove
5. The Golden Bowl

1. The American
2. The Tragic Muse
3. The Wings of the Dove
4. The Ambassadors
5. The Golden Bowl

He added, "The second list is, as it were, the more 'advanced'. And when it comes to the shorter Tales the question is more difficult (for characteristic selection) and demands separate treatment. Come to me about that, dear young man from Texas, later on - you shall have your little tarts when you have eaten your beef and potatoes."

James, for various reasons, didn't include The Bostonians in the New York Edition. When I'm rereading it the novel is by far my favorite James: funny in a wry way about that stuffy Boston milieu and its cranks, perceptive about the heady nature of a sexual attraction composed of equal parts politics. The structure makes it a rough go for initiates. The first evening takes nearly two hundred pages to describe and delineate (the novel is proto-Proust)! For long stretches those delightful secondary characters disappear, leaving Verena and Olive front and center, and often I wonder whether Verena is worth the effort (I get the sense James wonders the same and plays with reader sympathy). But once finished it really takes root in your mind, and the ending is as heartbreaking as anything he ever wrote.

I always recommend The Europeans and Washington Square to novices. I can't imagine short novels being as shrewd and entertaining and polished as these two performances.

I devoted nearly one third of my master's thesis James chapter to The Tragic Muse, making my director moan ("You're forcing me to read a novel I thought I could comfortably avoid for the rest of my life").

Washington Square is beautiful. Perfect, even. Brutal and Funny. I loathed The Europeans but we've talked about that before, elsewhere. I can barely even remember it now though. I just thought it was silly. Merchant Ivory made a film of that too in their early days. I've never seen it and I don't intend to.

Will definitely read The Bostonians though based on both of your recs.

p.s. it's funny to me the number of threads on here that have fairly lengthy Henry James discussions derailing them. It even happened on a Bill Callahan thread.

I'm revising my opinion of POAL: Hershey asking Kidman to smell the English rain on her sleeve, Gielgud and Donovan's last cigarette; Gardencourt has such character.

Her daughter is the lead in that awful Twilight-looking teen witch movie that's coming out soon. I find that very strange.

bravo, A. Listen to your doctor.

She's made a 5-hour TV thriller (Sundance Channel next month):

http://blogs.indiewire.com/thompsononhollywood/sundance-review-roundup-top-of-the-lake

did NOT expect this film to have me in heaves by its last 45 minutes, especially the Madame Merle-Isabel confrontation, acted superbly ("What have you to do with me?" "Everything"). Malkovich still a bit much -- tripping her??

Bright Star was about as good as any canon English poet biopic probably could be right now

The butterflies bit was gorgeous but those were fucking blue morphos, tropical species, not the pride of Britain. Would some actual lepidoptery not have gone amiss?

It's really beautiful. The part where Fanny and John *pause* their country walk when the child looks round to them really stuck with me.

yes, that was completely delightful

love Paul Schneider in that movie a lot, it's a shame he doesn't get more work. he did give us this and "Orblando Gloom" after all

My yoga teacher does some work in films and she told me Bright Star was her favourite job.

Paul Scneider's Scottish accent is the worst thing about the movie.

Fwiw my friend is a good friend of Peter Mullan and she said that he said working on top of the lake was an amazing experience. They rewrote and revised constantly over the course of the shooting and no one in the cast knew where it was going. I think that what transpired was unexpected for everyone involved.

Quite enjoyed Holy Smoke but Keitel's character unravelled far too easily, I think that damaged the film quite a bit.

NYC retro next month

https://www.filmlinc.org/daily/jane-campion-own-stories-begins-september-8/

So let's revive this for The Power of the Dog

You’ve seen it? We talked about it a wee bit on the MUBI thread.

it’s on netflix as of today

i loved it. saw it in theatres

It's dullish for is 45 mins, then it takes a expected, sharp turn that doesn't quite match expectations.

is=its

Felt like maybe its real subject was the craziness-making loneliness of the wide open frontier spaces rather than the particulars of the plot.

Here is link to discussion from last week: MUBI (Criterion-affiliated streaming classic, foreign, independent movie site) - c/d, comments, recommendations, etc.

i really would like to be well enough to go see the new Campion in theaters. what did you think?

I liked it. Slow and atmospheric. Cumberbatch is good in this role as a super-angry smartass, first cousin of David Thewlis in Naked. And it was fun to be in The Paris Theater again.
― Sporting with the Fbclid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 12:34 (one week ago) link

that was decent yeah, even though I didn't feel in the mood for Cumberbatch in that type of role, but he does ok.

― calzino, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 12:37 (one week ago) link

Very much of a piece with her crime TV work imo.

Had a grand old time having two bros behind me at the cinema chuckling at every instance of homophobic bullying in it.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 12:51 (one week ago) link

I was thinking something similar to calzino. Do I actually need to see him in this role? Maybe not. But I’m fine with it. The most interesting performance by far was the boy. Oh and don’t blink or you’ll miss Keith Carradine.

― Sporting with the Fbclid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 12:54 (one week ago) link

Wow, BC seems to have engaged in some serious Marathon Man-level Method Acting.

― Sporting with the Fbclid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 24 November 2021 14:10 (one week ago) link
<snip>

― Duck and Sally Can't Dance (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 26 November 2021 21:34 (one week ago) link

https://mubi.com/notebook/posts/the-current-debate-the-obliqueness-of-campion-s-the-power-of-the-dog

― Duck and Sally Can't Dance (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 26 November 2021 21:38 (one week ago) link

I kind of am curious about the novel The Power of the Dog. I assume much stuff that is cryptic or murky in the movie is made more explicit, although Wikipedia has a summary with some spoilers that seems to indicate some different action from the film.

― Duck and Sally Can't Dance (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 27 November 2021 01:41 (six days ago) link

Thought Greystoke: The Legend of the Power of the Dog was pretty good--came up a bit short for me, but thought it much better than Kelly Reichardt's Meek's Cutoff. Felt like Campion was heavily influenced by There Will Be Blood, especially in the discordant score. Benedict Cumberbatch's uncanny Dennis Quaid impression was something of a distraction, but I thought the character was well drawn; I liked that he was good with the book-learnin' instead of just a savage brute. I'm a major fan of Fargo's second season, so Kirsten Dunst and Jesse Plemons together was a plus.

I liked that he was good with the book-learnin' instead of just a savage brute

Ivy Leaguer pretending to be a salt of the earth Good Ol' Boy, an American archetype.

Oh yes indeed

i'm curious to know if native american genocide is touched on, even subliminally, in this film? pretty much only interested in western treatments that acknowledge it tbr

briefly but crucially

I would say no but also it's not a western in the way I think you're using the term? It's set on a range in the 1920's, it's not about the Taming of the West or settler colonialism (outside of the level on which every movie set in the USA is about that, I guess).

There is a scene with native americans in it that highlights the class differences between them and the white characters but calling it an acknowledgement of the genocide would be overselling it.

So the answer to your question is: yes and no.

Yeah, its mainly about other kinds of op/repression.

ok ty

i think i need to see this tbh

Incredible movie

yeah really looking forward to this

I really enjoyed it, but no, it's not even close to a western in the traditional sense; more like a western gothic (if that's a thing) family drama but the horses, cattle and whisky are just window dressing, and a suitable setting for toxic masculinity and rural isolation

otm

Is it wrong of me to feel that maybe the role of Phil should have gone to an unknown and not a big star who could do probably do this in his sleep, even though (or especially because) in this case the guy went through all kinds of Method gymnastics to get in character?

do the do

Best Cumberbatch movie. His Cumberbitchery is almost always unbearable

Sitting here watching matchbox holding my clothes wishing the Ben Kingsley character from Sexy Beast would show up in this move to kick his ass.

I think Cumberbatch did fine. One element is that he's almost a cult-leader to the cowhands, as was Bronco Billy or whatever his name was - an unknown "and introducing" actor might not have been believable in that part of the role

He can chew the scenery and a rollie cigarette at the same time

One thing I really enjoyed about watching this movie was I kept telling my wife that I had no idea what direction this is going to take but I love the depth of characters and want to see where it ends. Afterwards we talk about the movie late into Saturday night.

Bronco Henry. Think Billy was already taken.

xp Yeah, same here... I forgot Dune literally the minute I left the theater, but kept thinking about this film for awhile

He can chew the scenery and a rollie cigarette at the same time
Lol

Was anyone else acutely conscious of how much he sounded/looked like Dennis Quaid?

I wasn't but now that you mention it, geez it's spot on

I recently heard someone say that, maybe it was you upthread. Any particular Dennis Quaid performance in particular? Far from Heaven? Oh wait.

Just in general. Tried searching the two names together, and there are few general results and one specific to this film.

https://variety.com/2021/film/reviews/the-power-of-the-dog-review-jane-campion-benedict-cumberbatch-kirsten-dunst-jesse-plemons-1235054229/

"Phil, played by Cumberbatch as a drawling cowboy monomaniac with a mean leer that makes him seem at times like an evil Dennis Quaid, is a haughty macho customer who rolls his own cigarettes, taunts his brother by calling him 'Fatso,' and likes nothing better than to ride the range and go boozing and whoring with his stable of hired hands."

Quaid and Jeff Bridges were me and Morbius' dream casting for a 1980s Brokeback.

/pvmic

Feel like this movie was a couple of movies rolled into one, including some kind of artsy Aussie take. Seem to recall some antic dancing cowboys in Sweetie iirc.

(xpost) I think mine was Katherine Ross and Jan Smithers from WKRP--not sure if it would have worked.

Chewing that rawhide like bubble gum
Sun is out and I want some
It’s not far not far to reach
We can get to rock at Bronco Beach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPCnM6M7v4w
0:30

including some kind of artsy Aussie take

I get this.. there was an off-kilter river bottoms mysticism (with buzzing insects) that I've seen in a fair amount of oz cinema

FP’d you both

Wonder how I got this far without knowing you were a crocfarmer, sic

Sorry, that term never caught on.

i found this both off-putting and shallow.

it seemed to be a reactionary tale about bullying hung around a few fine performances (the brothers). i didn't buy the son's character. the mother's character waan't interesting at all to me. they were both pretty cipher-y imo. plemmons did a lot with not-much. cumberbatch, i'm not really sure, it was an impressive performance, but i don't know, i just didn't buy the character (again). ultimately i wish it had something more eloquent to say about the opposite of loneliness, but it was too busy focusing on what makes people feel lonely in the first place. it seemed really intent on being about that, at the expense of believable characters. strangely shallow in a few ways - the native american / hides scene stands out as a particularly egregious "this is what the white characters are feeling" trope. **

I didn't love it but it's a top ten for me.

Gavin Smith of Reverse Shot got it right, I think, except when he praised Jonny Greenwood's "haunting" score.

also, call me crazy, but i'm a little tired of seeing new zealand landscapes in film tbh

xp yeah i didn't care for the score either

The Kodi Smit-McPhee performance reminds me so much of the effeminate gay guys I knew in high school and college, trying to be totally kabuki and to not to show any emotion or mannerism to give themselves away. They were tormented anyway. Their experiences have been haunting to me because I knew I was the same but just better able to disguise it, and I didn't come to their defense.

thought that performance was really good

My favorite too, and wisely kept in the background for maximum deployment.

I too thought he was great, although reminding me of Nathan (For You) was quite jarring. Found a lot of the rest to be the Benny Cumberbitch show, distractingly hammish. Dunst great as often, Plemons a bit of a blank space, also massively distracted by cowboys riding where the orcs were about to attack on giant CGI wolves.

i warmed to the character a bit in the first rabbit scene and the badminton scene. he reminded me a bit of harold from harold and maud.

my queer experience is closer to the world of the cumberbatch character. all of those types of masc cartoons are wounded children at heart, which he definitely got right and convincingly.

the whole movie messed with my emotions in a not-satisfying way tbh. it also seemed like it was trying to be too much. i don't think it had anything very interesting to say about its subjects. the bits i knew about the movie beforehand, i thought maybe the son character would just break cumberbatch's character's heart by going off to school. that would have been a route to the more subtle character study it was aiming to be imo.

xp lol, yes, that's what i mean by nz on film. also didn't look anything like montana afaict, more western oregon.

one thing that didn't work for me was i didn't feel that benedict cumberbatch's bullying was harsh enough to cause kirsten dunst's swift descent into alcoholism. maybe it's more fleshed out in the novel and stuff got cut, but it seemed like a melodramatic overreaction. he's obviously creepy and abusive, but like for example the scene where she's practicing pianos and he intimidatingly does duelling banjos against her, i didn't really get why she was so overwhelmed

agree. it didn't get a fair amount of human behavior right for a movie that is about that. like, a pretty hacky script honestly.

i felt like the inclusion of the brothers' mom and dad was a major lost opportunity too, they were just blank faces.

Good to see Keith Carradine after all these years. Well-cast too.

Yes, that was a nice surprise. Have to confess I wasn't paying attention to the credits and didn't recognize him so had to look up this guy who sort of stole his scenes or at least held onto them in spite of the B.C.B.O. wafting across the set.

I must not have recognized Carradine. Rene Auberjonois was in First Cow. They're all paying homage to McCabe & Mrs. Miller.

He played the governor in that dinner scene with the parents. I had one of those "shit, can it be?" moments when I heard that confident drawl.

Keith Carradine should be in everything.

If it was obviously him, I may have recognized him and just forgot about it as soon as the film ended. He was good in Fargo's first season.

He recently made a notable appearance here: Old time actors and directors that you were surprised to find out were married to each other once upon a time

I just had an auditory hallucination of B.C. saying the word "pianer" [sic].

god this really sucked. all neatly slotted together according to packed instructions, appropriately foreshadowed and signposted; complete with compelling landscapes ruined with ugly digital photography, and one of the more embarrassing drunkard performances of recent memory

I watched THE POWER OF THE DOG (2021).

I like the Western genre (and setting it in the 1920s is different!), but overall this film was rather too mysterious and enigmatic for me.

again, I don't think it's a western

agreed with everyone re: NZ landscape, was p obvious to me that wasn't the US

Wait, it wasn’t?

j/k. I couldn’t tell what was going on for a bit. Thought it was a special effect at first, a glass shot, like in Black Narcissus, although I knew Natalie Kalmus was not around anymore to supervise the color.

Just watched this movie and found it really frustrating; one of those movies that makes me want to just edit the crap out of it because it has the potential to be much better than it is. Thought the acting was all-around great, Cumberbatch in particular - the way he talks, that ever-so-slight lag and carefulness that creates a little bit of space around each line, almost like an echo. You get the sense that he's shaping the words in his mind and then listening to them as they come out of his mouth.

But the movie telegraphed so many things that could have been left to the performances to suggest, and then left other things out that needed to be there. I didn't need to hear the name "Bronco Henry" quite so many times. I didn't need to see BH monogrammed on that kerchief; I could have figured out who it belonged to. And really, would Bronco Henry have monogrammed handkerchiefs? If he did, would BH be the initials on them? Is Bronco his actual first name?

I didn't really buy that Phil would have a box of muscle mags, either. I thought the idea was that all his Bronco Henry memorabilia was the closest he came to acknowledging his sexuality, so it just came across as a clumsy signpost - LOOK, SEE, HE'S GAY, as if all the homophobic taunting and the fixed attention couldn't have clued someone as smart as Peter into that possibility already.

And then there were other clumsy things. Why is the movie structured so that at any given time only two of the characters are interacting with each other? Why do we see Phil tormenting Rose over the piano, but no Phil/Rose interactions at all during the whole time that she's supposedly descending into alcoholism because of his bullying? Where is George during all this? He pretty much disappears from the movie while his wife is drinking herself into a stupor every day. Why?

And how exactly does Peter get on Phil's good side so quickly? I mean, yeah, Phil is attracted to him, but that's been the case all along. Why does parading past Phil suddenly get Peter all kinds of positive attention, rather than more homophobic bullying? And how does Peter know that will work? It seems like the movie is missing a scene where Peter actually reaches out to Phil and asks him to teach him about ranching. (I kept thinking this movie was like the gay cowboy version of "Me and Jesus the Pimp in a '79 Granada Last Night," but the song has the kid putting his plan into motion by writing to Jesus the Pimp, whereas here Peter's plan seems to fall into place by magic.)

So yeah. Frustrating. Great performances, good overall storyline and concept, and then it's brought down by clunky writing that doesn't trust the actors or the audience.

Lily Dale: I agree about the frustration, but unlike you I didn't think it was telegraphed so much as the opposite: too obscure and mysterious.

To take up one of your points: yes, why does Phil suddenly befriend Peter? You say: because he's attracted to him - well maybe he is - but there's been no sign of it previously, this is really just conjecture based on the revelation (if I understand correctly) that Phil enjoyed pictures of muscular males.

I also agree that 'Bronco Henry' was cited far too many times, has far too much weight in the film, for a character who's utterly invisible and has, by definition, no presence or flavour for the viewer at all.

I also don't understand the 'dog' motif. Two of them claim to see the image of a barking dog in the hills. I couldn't. Either way, that image didn't add up to anything, save the entirely coincidental echo with the last line, from the Bible.

Could never figure out the dog thing either, maybe it is in the book?

Clearly there is some kind of oil and water thing going on with this movie, with different people responding positively and negatively to distinct parts of it. Perhaps that bodes well for its staying power.

what i understood phil's motivation to be, switching on a dime to liking peter, was that it was the only way he was going to be able to keep his secret. and then quickly he developed an attraction by projecting that mentor / mentee thing on it. i didn't quite understand why the scene where this initially happened was staged the way it was. i.e. peter walking toward a tree, looking at birds, and then walking back. it seemed very self-consciously symbolic, if anything.

i need to mention that one of the worst scenes in this was when the native american traders appeared in order to be magically wise for the white woman. just awful.

the more i think about it, the more i disliked this movie. i agree that the performances were mostly impressive. but ultimately it was just a hacky 'clever' plot movie based on poorly conceived motivations and unbelievable characterization. it would have been much better if it had decided to be a western instead - the western elements (the phil + bh stuff) provided the only warmth in the movie, other than peter and his mother playing badminton, which, if it went more in that kind of comedic, light-hearted direction, it also would have been better imo.

i think there's a critique of this to be made that it's very un-queer-friendly, heteronormative and reactionary. the first line of the movie, about peter protecting his mother at all costs, had my hackles raised from the get-go. i think its insistence on not being a western is related to its being conservativee in the standard hollywood sensibility sort of way. i guess the most charitable thing i can say about it is it made me imagine 10 other movies i'd rather see.

I still like the film, but these are legit criticisms. Funny how this is Jane Campion's straightest film in every sense.

xp Oh, you're thinking Phil knew or guessed that Peter had found the box? That would certainly make it make more sense.

Yeah, that Native American scene was bullshit, and featured the excellent actor Adam Beach in an insultingly tiny role.

yes, re: finding the box. the point wasn't explicitly made, though. which is maybe related to pinefox's point that it was also mysterious in ways that didn't serve it.

im with alfred, i liked-not-loved it, but this is mostly fair. the handkerchief being monogrammed BH is really funny tbh, that hadnt occurred to me but youre totally right.

i also figured phil assumed peter found the box. isnt the thing with the dog just that phil enjoyed the being the only person who can spot the dog, validating his sense of being a superior galaxybrain? i read it as that he was initially befriending peter simply as a power game to torment rose, but then when peter spots the dog its phils first stirrings of actual respect & attraction to peter, not just a predator-prey relationship. idk what any of that has to do with the bible verse though.

Trying to remember the Jane Campion short with the "Daydream Believer" misquote- Happy Birthday, Davy! #onethread. Seems to be Passionless Moments. These days more familar with the tribute/hommage/copy Fit, by Athina Rachel Tsangari.

want to see this film again, feel like there was a lot I didn't get

Nothing to see here, move along

:)

Think a Sweetie reviewing is imminent.

i watched bright star on nye; everyone itt in 2010 was right, it's a dope movie

Tried to watch Sweetie about 30 years ago, but never finished it; vague memories of grossness. I liked the other four Campion films I've seen, though, and I'll look into the new one.
I still remember Cinematheque Ontario (TIFF) taking a poll that acclaimed her and Spike Lee "directors to watch for the 90s". I imagine that even before the end of the decade, there were a bunch of disappointed viewers.

It is a bit of a clever-plot movie, and there is a lot of telegraphing. But the alienation of the entire thing, including the weird and obviously out of place landscape, for me gave it kind of a buzz. There's a lot of tension in it, it's Hitchcocky in parts.

i agree with quite a few of the criticisms of the movie itt (even though overall i really enjoyed it) (although i really don't see how it's anti-queer and reactionary but i was confused in the first part of the movie because i thought kirsten dunst was peter's sister lol) but it's depressing to see every post in the thread raging at a jane campion movie; she's such a great and interesting director imo. i recommend In The Cut (2003) for haters willing to give her another shot

having never been to montana, i was able to suspend disbelief about the landscape. (i suspect that even if i had been to montana, i wouldn't care, because i'm not fussy). but the landscape was really beautiful and the valley surrounded by mountains fit the claustrophobic atmosphere. also some of the most stunning shots were the slow-mo close-ups of horses' backs which mirrored the relief

i saw this in theatres and most ppl are watching it on netflix, and i think i usually like everything 15% less by default when i watch on netflix. just something about the interface cheapens it

i think the best things about this were the cinematography and benedict cumberbatch's performance

Campion's best movies are all after The Piano. Her Henry James adaptation is one of the strangest and best. I owe Morbs for making me re-think my original response.

Interesting, because I (mostly) gave up with Il Piano. Will have to revisit.

xxp the landscape didnt look outrageously out of place to me either, i'm sure it'll look like NZ next time i watch it now that i know, but i bought it at the time (having also never been to montana). it looked unusual but i just chalked it up to not being filmed in california or arizona like most US westerns.

Oh man In the Cut was really good. I saw that movie three times, once in a theater and then twice on an airplane, I liked it so much. I should rewatch it.

I think this is a great film, and what I like is that it isnt Brokeback Mountain II, though it seems like that's where it's going for a while. But it's a pretty good take on the dangers of toxic masculinity. Set aside everything in the film and what happens at the end happened because a dude wanted to always look like a hardman who don't need no stinking gloves.

I loved the book, along with every other book of hers (Susanna Moore) I’ve read, can’t remember how I felt about that movie. Disclaimer: I had a co-worker way back when who went to college with Meg Ryan and used to refer to her as “Peggy,” which may have biased me somehow.

Susanna Moore’s first novel, My Old Sweetheart, reminded me a bit of ILB favorite Marilynne Robinson’s Housekeeping but I liked it a bit better.

Most people have never been to Montana or New Zealand. And most people couldn't tell you what the differences between the two landscapes might be, save -- maybe more koalas in the second?

I would have had no idea where this was filmed, or that it wasn't the US, if people on this thread hadn't repeatedly stated that the landscape looks like NZ and not Montana.

If the film was set in NZ and you told me that it had been shot in Montana then, on the basis of the pictures (if maybe not the economics), I would have found that equally plausible.

I've not been to Montana or New Zealand but I have seen plenty of films set in Montana and New Zealand, don't think you really need first hand experience to notice it.

montana or new zealand

https://carrollvanwest.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/cropped-img_0085.jpg

https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2013/12/07/11/34/new-zealand-224510_960_720.jpg

are those koalas

Orcs imo

lol I guess when I say the landscape was obviously wrong it's really just because I've driven through Montana. But also because those particular landforms, the way the hills in the movie are shaped, really don't look like anything I've seen anywhere in the continental U.S. I didn't mind that it was obviously not Montana, I accepted it as basically the evocative set for a theatrical performance.

OTM.

I'm sure there are parts of NZ that look just like Montana, but those particular mountains looked especially volcanic and more like Hawai'i. Howzit Brah?

Campion's best movies are all after The Piano.

does Holy Smoke hold up? I haven't seen it since 1999, but at the time I thought it was pretty great/wild and overlooked

I've been to both Montana and the part of NZ where the film was filmed. I have very fond memories of that area, so was motivated to the see the movie as much by the NZ scenery as anything else. If I didn't have that specific experience I doubt that I'd have even suspected it wasn't Montana. The one scene early on where the two bros are riding through small volcanic formations would have been the only give-away, but I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in Montana there are similar formations. (Think it might be the Pisa range between Wanaka and Queenstown).

Campion's best movies are all after The Piano.

One thing's for sure, I'll never watch An Angel at My Table ever again.

That's my feeling about Sweetie.

(first pic was montana, second pic was new zealand)

Why do you guys dislike those two earlier movies so much?

AAAMT works. Sweetie concentrated on grotesqueness for its own sake without making me see the germaneness. It's been many years, though.

Among other things, it's a biopic, which is like seven strikes against it from the get-go.

well, sure, it's just like The King's Speech and The Eyes of Tammy Faye.

I didn't think Cumberbatch's performance worked while I was watching it but when I think back at what a ridiculously macho figure he cut it made me think about his relation to the other characters, and to what extent he was fooling anyone; e.g. Did Jesse Plemons's character feel sorry for him? Is that the real reason he puts up with him?

sweetie is fucking amazing. everything about it is so heightened - the colors, the framing, the performances - but it still has a real emotional core while also being very funny. the score is all gospel choir music, which doesn't make any sense but somehow still works. it's not particularly grotesque or gross imo? there's more beauty in it than grossness, especially when they leave sweetie behind to go visit the mom out west.

otoh i don't really get the critical revival of "in the cut," that's the movie that made me feel gross

I need to watch Sweetie again. It's been almost 30 years.

The Thomas Savage novel The Power of the Dog, which I've almost finished, is pretty excellent.

I really liked the book of In the Cut, probably said so recently, perhaps in this thread, but the movie I didn't dig so much.

Still haven't seen In the Cut but will check it sooner than later.

While I have your attention, did you ever get around to finishing Rio Bravo?

Sam Elliott, no longer on my Christmas card list:

“You want to talk about that piece of shit?” Elliott told the host before launching into a tirade about why the film centered around Phil Burbank (Benedict Cumberbatch), a hardened and sexually repressed ranch owner in 1920s Montana, is a major misstep for the genre.

“There was a fucking full-page ad out in the LA Times and there was a review, not a review, but a clip, and it talked about the ‘evisceration of the American myth,’” he said. “And I thought, ‘What the fuck? What the fuck?’”

Drawing a bizarre comparison between Campion’s vision of cowboys and Chippendale dancers wearing “bowties and not much else,” Elliott then added, “That’s what all these fucking cowboys in that movie look like.”

“They’re all running around in chaps and no shirts. There’s all these allusions to homosexuality throughout the fucking movie,” he continued, to which Maron countered by reminding him “that’s what the movie’s about.”

“The Power of the Dog” has indeed been praised by many for how it thoughtfully deconstructs toxic notions of masculinity and repressed homosexuality against the backdrop of the American West. The film dominated this year’s Oscar nominations with nods for stars Kirsten Dunst, Kodi Smit-McPhee and Cumberbatch, as well as a history-making honor for Campion.

Elliott, who’s appeared in a slew of classic Westerns throughout his decades-long career, next turned his attention to the New Zealand director. Despite acknowledging Campion as a “brilliant” filmmaker, he took issue with her shooting the film in her native country.

“What the fuck does this woman from down there know about the American West? Why the fuck did she shoot this movie in New Zealand and call it Montana? And say this is the way it was? That fucking rubbed me the wrong way,” he said.

"There’s all these allusions to homosexuality throughout the fucking movie,” he continued, to which Maron countered by reminding him “that’s what the movie’s about.”

Wait 'til he watches some of his former co-star Lady Gaga's videos.

is anyone gonna tell him about the big lebowski?

or Blazing Saddles?

Is Sam Elliott parked at the commissary?

Jeez, what a foul mouthed, wretched little creature.

sam elliott watching power of the dog https://t.co/6DqsAgu1q5

— Good Steely Dan Takes (@baddantakes) March 1, 2022

is anyone gonna tell him about the big lebowski?
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open)

or Blazing Saddles?
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

Or Red River!

power of the dog is even better on a rewatch imo. the power dynamic seems so different when you know from the beginning how sad phil is and how crafty pete is.

opens in a theater near me next week & i'm very much looking forward to revisiting it on a big screen

n/a is otm, and it quite helped that I read the novel b/w my first and second viewings.

boom

Jane Campion responds to Sam Elliott's #ThePowerOfTheDog comments: "I'm sorry, he was being a little bit of a B-I-T-C-H. He's not a cowboy; he's an actor. The West is a mythic space and there's a lot of room on the range. I think it's a little bit sexist." https://t.co/I32wQ8lCiF pic.twitter.com/Tftq4AoXCy

— Variety (@Variety) March 13, 2022

kinda put her foot in her mouth shortly thereafter tho

Lol “kinda”

it's kinda likely to cost her an oscar

Haven’t they voted already?

Voting runs March 17-22.

I bet she still wins. She will get fewer votes, but it's hard for me to imagine any of the other nominees overtaking her at this point.

yes, think she will win best director and the film will win best picture

Called it.