quitting heroin. how?

my prayers are with your friend -- i know what it's like seeing a loved one on heroin, and trying to kick it. (please don't ask how i know -- and it wasn't me).

One of my best friends gave up heroin for her *sixteenth* birthday, just stopped cold...but she has rather a lot of willpower.

I don't understand how it isn't in this case. or maybe I don't understand how it is obviously piss-taking.

The girl I mention upthread is one of my very best friends; Kate has met her too. Honestly, I had no idea Mpls. had such a prevalence of smack use in the mid-80s until my friend told me this story (in 1994 her ex died of an OD, having moved to Seattle to join a harridan's band, having ignored my friend's words of caution). Setting aside how stupid it is to take smack in the first place, I seem to remember it being a case of set and setting - she simply decided to draw a line under it, finished with the boyfriend who'd taught her how to freebase a year earlier, started going out with girls (which answers RJG's question along with 'bought a house in uptown Minneapolis and rented all the spare rooms cheaply to other punx') and had a 'last shot' in style, ie. with Bl!xa B@rgeld after a gig on her birthday (so scwooo yoooo, lovers of Sick Knave).

Grow the fuck up, RJG and Andrew. Your comments aren't funny, and your snideness is really starting to grate.

You didn't have a thing to say when it was Gabriel asking the question. You just had to have a dig the moment Suzy commented.

If you have SOMETHING MEANINGFUL or even pithy and funny about heroin addiction, by all means contribute it. If you want to just take pot-shots at Suzy or I by way of snide comments about our friends, just spare me.

End of conversation.

The problem with smack use is people don't take it seriously enough, at least according to every single pharmacologist and chemical dependency agency person I've ever had the pleasure to interview in Glasgow, Manchester or London, at least according to the addicts I spoke to in the course of my research (some of whom were frantically trying to get off the stuff and died anyway). In addition to long-term users on methadone (more addictive than the actual smack, DANGER!) we found a lot of people who should have known better were doing smack to come down at the end of a night out, and just saw it as something to help them sleep. *Not* a form of transgression, *not* at all chic. A few weeks later some of them had habits, some didn't. If you really believe people are off chasing the dragon because a) some authority figure says 'drugs are bad' and THEY'LL SHOW THEM, or b) some star is meant to be using also, then you are really wide of the mark, a sheltered, coddled little kid - or both.

Also, someone's asked for help upthread, don't piss on his campfire.

kate? you can't really pass remark on people not being on-topic. without seeming, like, whatever.

and we weren't laughing at sixteen year olds w/ substance abusing so much as thirty-something year olds who had substance abusing when they were sixteen. or just a thirty-something. who knows/hangs with celebs now? and had a stylish last shot? I am not fooled ! I can see there is no glamour ! anywhere !

Please do NOT confuse talking about heroin with "glamourising" it.

And if you are going to take potshots at Suzy for her incessant name-dropping, then take pot-shots at her name-dropping. Not her friends.

it wasnt the smack that killed him in the end, he did beat it you see, i'm not really sure how, it was all hidden away when he was doing it, and it was hidden when he stopped. he did it by himself though, but i think it was alcohol that helped him kick it in the end. but then it was alcohol that killed him.

As far as I know, yes. But then I don't know if there's some local law or something prohibiting it. It may be the case that pharmaceutical help is only available as part of a larger treatment (incl. counselling/psychotherapy and other forms of treatment), and it may be that it's not available to someone with "out patient" status (i.e. not checked into a clinic). The latter is highly likely.

You can certainly help by finding out as much information as you can on local treatment centers, psychiatrists, etc. and just by understanding the situation. Substance abuse, just like any other addiction/mental illness, often takes a long process and some failed attempts to treat. Different people respond differently to treatments, and finding the best one isn't always simple.

If your friend really does want to quit, finding someone for her to talk to (a doctor at a clinic or elsewhere) is a good first step. If her parents are aware of the problem and willing to help, they should be learning about treatments and addiction too. If her parents don't know or "can't handle" the knowledge, then having them around or nearby may be problematic.

I'm not a doctor, and I don't speak with any authority on this subject. Only with some experience with psychiatrists and mental illness. Substance abuse is classified as a form of mental illness, at least for the purposes of treatment, and I do know that some of the treatment options are the same.

My work is done.

Would've been nice if people could've actually shown some concern, but I guess it's too late for that.

Anyone do anything stupid when they were kids????????? fuck sake people show some compassion

Whatever happens, and i hope its positive know that there are some people who are thinking about what you, her and her family are about to go through and wish you all the best

Hm. Yeah, after James' posts, I'm seriously reconsidering how entertaing this particular fite is. By the time I got to the bottom of the thread, I had somehow forgotten that all this yelling was related to a real person with a real problem.

of course legally they can do it, thing is, they will probably much prefer to turn her over to drug treatment center most run of the mill psychs don't fancy heroin addicts turning up in the consulting room

if for some reason she doesn't want that to happen, i would suggest going to the psychiatrist and getting meds on the basis of depression or otherwise, if she doesn't want them to know what's going on she doesn't have to tell them

though, if she is planning on going to a psych. it would seem to make more sense to me to allow them to refer her to a treatment center, or to find one herself

this all depends on how much of a problem she has

there's not much you can do, besides be there for her, and help with any of the logistics if she does want to get counseling or treatment

Best of luck.

(Oh, and this isn't relevant, but I rather enjoyed RJG's and Andrew's comments. Gallows humor. On the other hand, I don't know their history with Suzy, and if they knew that baiting her would cause her to go off, they probably should have desisted, since this is Gabriel's thread. In any event, their behavior isn't the issue here.)

http://www.stanford.edu/~gchen/Wedding/Astaire2.jpg

I call myself "Atheist" to let people know that being an atheist isn't a block to 12-step recovery.

Also, what Atheist said about gallows humor is something that will be needed if you really want to help. Some of things written above strike me as naively hysteric/romanticizing. Anybody who has real experience with this subject knows that ability to laugh at oneself is at times the only straw there is to grasp. If you can share that sort of gallows humor with your friend, it will be almost as valuable to her as the knowledge that she can tell you the truth. Good luck! (And don't forget to set your own boundaries as soon as you know what the are. Atheist's three c's are good advice, in or out of the 12-step world.)

pal o' mine is about to have a kid (his better half is): tips on quitting h anyone?

having a kid helped my bro quit.

yeah this is what i think could and should happen.

i'll ask him for tips next time we talk.

nothing that involves an old bald dude and some statues of the virgin mary i hope.

no this bro lives in st. louis. was living in OR when he kicked h.

same for one of my close friends. he was already getting better, but still dabbling pretty heavily. his gf gave birth to their son back in june, and it's changed his whole life. but i imagine this wouldn't apply for everyone. has he tried quitting before? is he considering professional treatment?

he seems to have it more or less under control (uhhh if you get me...), and has been off as recently as last year (not that i always know).

no, i know what you mean. my friend was the same. he got to a point where he was working fulltime and functioning fairly normally. he still dabbles very occasionally - from what he's told me - which does worry me. but he's a smart guy, so there's nothing i can do to help him anymore. the thing i worry most about with my friend is that all his mates are involved in drugs to one degree or another (with me being pretty much the only exception). being around ppl like that while trying to quit isn't the best idea.

i tried it once (with the above friend) quite a few years ago, and i was really disappointed. couldn't see the appeal. (i think my friend gave me an incredibly small hit because he was scared of killing me or something, but i never had the desire to try it again - smoking is a bad enough habit.)

thanks anonym, atheist, wherever y'all are.

someone i care about just emerged from rehab and has already relapsed

Many of my old friends quit dope again and again and again. Some made it out of their personal pits. Some didn't. The only logical thread I can weave thru all of their tales is that of location. The ones who quit junk successfully moved to a more supportive environment where it was difficult to score. A couple years ago, I read Broken by William Cope Moyers, Bill Moyers's son, and it made an awful lot of sense to me, his journey from recurring addictions (mostly crack) to sobriety, and the logic therein.

whoa, i had no idea that bill moyers' son had drug problems....

yeah, this guy is pretty young (to me, anyhow; early/mid-20's) but he has traveled across the u.s. many times over...i wish i could magically transport him to some low-key idyllic town in Montana or something...

compounding the problem is that he is gay...and i dunno how many places in america one can live and feel at ease being "out", and which also have vitually no access to drugz

man dell my heart goes out to you, it's hard to watch somebody go back on it.

one word: bupe

some classic zinging upthread xD

Thanks, J0hn. Also, I don't mean to sound over-dramatic or anything. This is not an s.o. or bff or whatever, but rather someone whom I met a couple of months ago under the kind of weird, totally random circumstances that lead one to believe that you encountered the other person for some significant reason, at least if one is inclined to lend credence to karma/synchronicity whatever kinda stuff.

Bottom-line is, he disappeared off the map for a while, and then happened to call me a couple of nights ago to fill me in on what he's been going through. He laid some line down on me to the effect that I was the only person that he could tell the truth to...and I asked him why he hadn't called the ppl who universally extended themselves to him at the meetings he went to after coming home, and he sorta started to break up and say "I dunno, I dunno..."...I realize that I have prob. more or less negligible influence over what happens from here on out, but it tears me apart b/c he is a. a human b. has lots of amazing stuff going on, and c. i have family members/old friends who have died or gotten into horrible situations because of this stuff

warmsherry, i have never read much about bupe before. that's interesting.

ibogaine, though. hmmm...

Five years ago I met a girl named Cynthia at the poetry slam. Me, her, and another poet got really close. We would meet at the hookah bar two or three times a week and read each other poems and bounce ideas off each other and inspire one another. We'd hang out at each other's apartments watching movies all night. She was funny and beautiful and quick witted and had an incredible ear for meter and alliteration. She smoked crack and did heroin, but she wouldn't do it around us. I guess maybe we thought if we hung out with her enough maybe she'd stop? I don't know, we were all 18. What the fuck did we know?

She started losing weight and stopped coming around the slam. I'd call and she wouldn't answer. She'd sent me text messages like "I smoked a rock I hate myself please help me" and then wouldn't answer my replies. When she came to the old hookah bar with a new friend, a guy who said he'd been an addict and had gotten clean, we stupidly approved. Cyn wanted our approval and we gave it to her because we thought "hey he beat it! he can help!" He moved in.

He relapsed. She relapsed. The relationship got abusive. She tried to kick him out but he wouldn't leave. Her phone got cut off. She moved out of her apartment, but nobody seemed to know where she'd gone. My only lead to find her was the slam, and nobody there had seen her. My head was so far up my ass that summer, I was so weeded and focused on stupid fuckin Nationals, that when summer ended and I got back home I realized I hadn't seen or heard from her in months. I had no way of contacting her. I tried to get on with my shit and forget about this girl I'd written so many poems about and months went by and I packed my shit and got ready to move to Austin.

I'm on the Interstate when my cell rings. I don't recognize the number but I pick it up like I always do cause hey, maybe it's a new friend right? It's Cyn. She's moved back in with her mom and is working on getting clean and really wants to see me. She says I can reach her at this number any time. I call back the next day and it's disconnected. I never hear from her again.

I have no idea what's happened to her. I don't even know her last name, so it's not like I can google her to see what shows up. But I miss her. I keep telling people this story like maybe if I tell it enough she'll hear it sometime and come find me.

God I hope she's OK.

:-(

Sometimes I wonder how many people I've known have ever worried about where I ended up. I'd like to tell them, old friends I've google-stalked on those late boring nights, make a facebook account or whatever for once just to say "hey check it out I'm doing awesome" but then the other side whispers CREPEY NARCISSIST BRAGGART and I don't do anything.

I'd like to see them all again. But high school and all that? It's not your life. I got people I work with, people I love, people I care about that I met under much more important circumstances that I know I can trust, adult to adult. And it's certainly not worth the risk of being horribly let down when you discover what's become of people you thought were great when you only had a few people to choose from who'd even put up with you.

imo.

Why'd you think about her tonight, h00s? Did something happen?

Tom I think I understand your point. I'd like nothing more than for her to have completely forgotten about me because she's busy with a real job (even a shit job!) or raising a kid or something. This other poet friend, the third of the trio, he has her last name written down in a notebook somewhere in a box somewhere in his old shit. He doesn't want to look her up because he's afraid of what he'd find: dead or maybe just depressing that she didn't make something of herself? But honestly I just want to know that she's alive and has something approaching satisfaction with her life.

Mordy:
I've got a picture of her along with some other photos of friends on my white board by my desk. I glanced at it and "Lord I'm Discouraged" started playing on the computer and that pretty much did it. I can't listen to it without thinking of her.

As a footnote here: an old slam friend got married this past summer. I went and snuck one of the guys aside and asked if anyone had seen her since I'd left. They said she came by once or twice looking really bad and then no one saw her anymore.

Fuck it you know what I'm calling my mans tomorrow and getting him to dig up that notebook with her name in it if I've got to drive down 35 and find that shit myself.

I just need to know.

no, you really don't.
The friends you find along the way are more important than the ones you leave behind. There's a point where you realize why so many folks prefer "family" - wherever it comes from.

Hoos I gotta break it down to an extent. I think you just need to get busy with work and school and building your own future, so you don't worry about momentarily entrancing people you never learned the last name of.

tombotm

also just in general it's better not to think about all the junkies you've known that are probably dead now

I still think sometimes about my high school friend De4n. In high school he scored us all weed. He always wore the same jean jacket. Something was on the back of it, but I can't remember what. He would crash at my place a lot when his Dad was on a drunken rampage (or so he said). He'd sneak in my window and crash on the floor. We had signals and a system and stuff. He was the consummate stoned conversationalist. Everything he said came awfully, sometimes dangerously close to making sense. After I went to college, I saw him again -- he came over, crashed on the couch, ate all my food, tried to turn my smooching my girlfriend into a 3-way, and basically just horrified everyone around him for 3 days until I had to kick him out. You know it's a bad guest when you have to kick them out.

Anyway. I haven't thought about him in a long time. I hope he's alive. Amendment: I hope he's alive and not annoying anyone.

just in general it's better not to think about all the junkies you've known that are probably dead now

― mad loli vamp bone (cankles), Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:46 AM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah otm

i feel u tom thx

Conversation I had on the bus with a neck tat dude:

HIM: Hey, what are you knitting? That looks really nice.

ME: A scarf. I started knitting and it's the one thing I've found that replaced smoking enough so I could quit.

HIM: Man, I know! Quitting smoking is harder than quitting heroin.

ME: That's what they say.

HIM: No, seriously, it is! I quit heroin but I'm still smoking.

ME: Well, congratulations on quitting.

HIM: I still do it sometimes. Just snort it. And only when I need to write songs.

ME: ...

LOL Abbott do you wear the same sign over your head that I do? Mine says "Crazy people, please come talk to me, I am friendly and will politely humour you until we pass a bus stop I can transfer at"

You ride on the same bus as Scott Weiland/Dave Gahan/Iggy Pop/(insert name of ex-junkie singer here)?

You were knitting on a bus?

hey I have that sign too

x-post

I once got proposed to, a minute after the guy (my potential suitor, natch) woke me up and told me it was dangerous to sleep on buses. Apparently it is dangerous because crazy people will wake you and talk to you.

I have that sign. I resisted the temptation to recount the book Christiane F to him. Mainly bcz the conversation was weird and yeah, thank god, we were almost at the transfer.

i'd rather they wake me and chat rather than...
http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2269998/Grisly-murder-aboard-Greyhound-bus-in-Canada.html

kinda disappointed you didn't recommend taking up knitting for when he needs to write songs

A guy on the bus who was a five percenter tried to convince me to join the Five Percent Nation and how they need people like me. I tried explaining I didn't meet any of the requirements, but he said they'd like me anyway. Then he told me I should move to Chicago bcz I'd be a good Cubs fan. Dide had my life planned out for me.

haha would love to see a Five Percent Nation "We Need White Girls" recruitment poster

LOL

kinda disappointed you didn't recommend taking up knitting for when he needs to write songs

― This Board is a Prison on Planet Bullshit (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, April 7, 2009 4:46 PM (14 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

or snorting heroin to knit of course

Abbs for the record you would be a really good Cubs fan.

i disagree tho w/hard work and discipline u could contribute greatly to the nation of gods and earths

we need wite girls btw

The bus I used to ride to work was full of erm . . . colorful characters. One time I accidentally bumped into one such lady who turned around and just went apeshit on me. She was screaming and ranting and then shoved me. The driver threw her off the bus and let me off across the street but she came running after me! It was one of the scariest/funniest moments of my life. Scary then, kind of lol now.

The there was the dude on that same bus who always wore quarters in his ears and announced every stop.

yeah, my old bus route went by the local methodone clinic, I feel you

(I stopped taking it cuz it got too crowded and unreliable, altho I still ride it on occasion)

As a minor postscript to my last sob story revive of this thread: about two weeks ago I got ahold of Cyn's last name. I'd hoped I could update this thread with a photo of us happily having lunch or something, but her name proved useless as a tool in finding her. No obituaries in the SA papers, no social networking profile (she always did hate the internet), nothing. So I'm just letting it go.

For a second shakey, I thought you were talking about heroin.

I only snort it when I need to get some perling done

purling even

Interesting.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2u3wnep.png

(xpost) I've heard of programmers doing acid, but heroin?

looks to me like people are googling less

StanM I am going to knit a sweater that has stripes modeled on that chart.

I have a niece who got off heroin. I am pretty certain it helps to be in immediate contact with 1) ex-addicts and 2) people who love you no matter what. I do not think I have any further useful information to impart on the subject except i am damned impressed by anyone who succeeds and i wish anyone luck in their attempt.

I know several people who got off heroin. Two of them are now a couple, and work really hard, and own two homes, and basically completely turned their lives around after near-death rock bottom junkiedom. The odds are long, but you can come back from this mistake.

i have a niece who is trying to get clean. it is rather frightening since i have known a few people who died. a very nice boy died at my house and i had the horrible experience of finding him, it was the saddest, most awful day of my life. i know a lot of people are skeptical about recovery programs but i am not, i think he would have tried anything that helped him keep living if only he'd known he wasn't going to.

my boss got off heroin probably five years ago. the other day she was complaining about a constant upset stomach and i said, "you know what soothes stomach problems? heroin." she got a faraway look and everyone at work got quiet and i felt bad for a minute but i'm laughing about it now, thinking about it.

All best to your niece & to you, estela.

thanks abbott.

Gosh estela, thats really sad :(

Oh Estela, that... I just can't imagine how horrible that must be. :-(

Hoos I gotta break it down to an extent. I think you just need to get busy with work and school and building your own future, so you don't worry about momentarily entrancing people you never learned the last name of.

Yes, let's all focus on ourselves. (Half joking here.)

Sorry about all that, estela. I have worried I was going to be in your position -- fortunately it didn't turn out that way but it could have, and I feel you.

Jergins, you are going straight to hell, and we're all coming with you.

if its any consolation most people do figure this out and rejoin the world to get zinged by their merciless coworkers

Nijoli and I lost a friend to an OD two days ago.

He was one of those people that laughs reaaaally suddenly and loudly, and way after everyone else has already finished laughing at the joke, or the joke has gone un-laughed at. We were all sitting around yesterday drinking his favorite drinks, listening to his favorite songs, and the absence of that bizarro laugh when we'd tell stories about how hilarious he was was as obvious as an anvil being dropped into the center of the table.

aw roxy, i'm sorry

Tragic. My best to you both.

I lost a friend to an OD last year. It was probably the hardest time I've had dealing with death, until my uncle passed away a month ago. It was a guy I used to work with, and was still very good friends with--we hung out regularly, he was cleaning up... it was election night, which just reeks of "one last time to celebrate" and makes it all the harder to take. he had just moved into a new place, away from the bad influences of his old one.

I feel you, Rox. Anything I can do lemme know, etc.

My friend was cleaning up, too. He actually hadn't fucked with heroin in quite a while, and was getting ready to move far away because the scene he was getting embroiled in here was full of people starting to get really into it, and also morphine. He did both in something like a 15-hour period. Fell asleep and never woke up.

Or, I guess, passed out.

sorry about that rox

omg I'm so sorry rox :(

yeah rox that's awful. I'm really sorry. :-(

Friend's son died of an overdose. Based on some evidence, they think there's a good chance it was his first time doing it alone. He'd had a hard time growing up but was now at UC Berkeley and looking forward to grad school. Really sweet kid. Feel like I got punched.

that's horrible, sorry to hear

thanks, just needed to vent about it.

I'm so sorry, tragic

that’s awful, lukas. hope you and your friend are okay

The older brother of one of my son's friends OD'd last spring. I'd never met the brother, but the friend himself is a really sweet guy and unfortunately is the one who found him.

Really awful, so sorry to hear.

Whether or not it was fentanyl-related, doing it by yourself is always a bad idea. I lost a really good buddy years ago, and he was doing it alone.

So sorry to hear it. I have a friend whose son died of an overdose when he was 17. That was going on 12 years ago, and it's still a constant source of pain for her. She keeps reliving his last days, if only she'd known, what she could have done ... It's awful.

The only anti-drug message I have ever given my kids, repeatedly, is stay the hell away from powders and pills. You don't know what's in them, and unlike lots of things adults say are bad for you, they can actually kill you. Especially here in one of the fentanyl capitals of the country. It's the one thing I'm unapologetically scare-tactic about, I will show them news reports of kids their ages or a little older who died.

Sage advice

I know this isn't the sad Olympics, but I've lost more than twenty friends to ODs since I was 15-- last year was actually the first year without one in the past decade.

My first friend who ODed was Luke, who was the bassist in my first band. I had an enormous crush on him and his death still haunts me.

I've done pretty much every drug under the sun, but have never touched heroin or rent as a result of that teenage experience. I've been better for it, but I really wish I didn't have to keep watching my friends die.

So sorry to hear it. I have a friend whose son died of an overdose when he was 17. That was going on 12 years ago, and it's still a constant source of pain for her. She keeps reliving his last days, if only she'd known, what she could have done ... It's awful.

Yeah exactly, I'm trying to guide my friends (not just his dad) away from wondering what they could have done differently, but ...

Sorry to hear how many of you have lived through this.

I lost one of my best friends 7 years ago. I still think about it all the time. In retrospect the signs were all there but we...just didn't get it.
It was a real gnarly experience for me. I still remember those last two days, which I've had to relive several times at the request of the local detectives. 4:30, we're frisbee golfing and I notice he's constantly checking his phone, and then suddenly he just gets up and leaves. 8:00, we are at his place playing cards with the guys. He calls the game early and retreats to his room. We can hear him blasting Modest Mouse in there. I continue to hang out until like 10:30.

Next day, I get a call around 2 PM from one of his co-workers who's a mutual friend. He didn't show up for work so this guy's picking up his shift. That's weird, I tell him, I saw him last night and I thought he went to bed early. It's not like him to just forget a shift. I text him when I get out "find him yet?" and he says no. I decide to swing by, maybe he did stay up late and is just sleeping in. His car is still there. I walk up the stairs and his roommate is there, "hey, you see (this guy)??" "Uhh, I think he had to work at noon" "His car's here, he's probably sleeping."

We try to open his door but it's locked. We start knocking on it, "hey, wake up!!", no response. His roommate goes "oh shit, he might be in trouble"...I didn't really know what kind of things he was up to but **he** definitely knew. Suddenly we're breaking down the door and when we get it off the frame the first thing we see is him, on the floor, no shirt, pale skin, with puke (??) all over himself, and these patches on his chest. I call 911, he's over by him shaking him and screaming at him to get up, to no avail. I tell the roommate "hey, the cops are coming, you should probably hide your shit", but he's too traumatized to move. All I can think of are his parents, who treated us like their own, thinking we let them down, we could've stopped this, we should've known, etc. etc.

Apparently the patches were fentanyl. Which I'd never heard of before. I looked it up and right away it leads to drug addict forums and even the people there were warning everyone to stay away from it. I'm still upset at him about it.

damn dude sorry

i've had so many friends addicted to this shit. one friend died when he was like 22 and his little brother died of the same thing like 5 years later. one of my best friends lived through a terrible addiction, but i still worry he'll relapse at any moment

Chilling story, frogbs. A dear friend came home four years ago to find her partner of ten years, a nurse who worked with marginalized populations and drug users, dead of an overdose. Just...I dunno. So much sadness in this world.