Meat for Millar

Meat for Millar.
Dick for Dan.
Nookie for Ned.
Ass for Ally.
Booty for Blount.

etc.

haha Geeta to thread

It's not just about the hormones, pesticides, etc. Your fuckin' bowels were not meant to digest meat. Carnivores have bowels shaped like a plastic tube; the stuff goes right through them. Human bowels are puckered and meant to digest with a fermentation process. Meat clogs up your arsehole and saturated fat clogs your arteries. Animal protein forces calcium out of your bones. The list goes on and on...

Ever heard of a varied, moderate diet? A little bit of everything?

even salad bar?

And I'm a firm believer in form and function: we are *supposed* to eat meat because we have canines. Our nearest relative el chimpos eat meat as well. The real problem is that in Amurka we eat too much of it.

Basically, several studies have been done which link meat to cancer and all these other diseases and that's the exact argument the meat industry uses in several court cases to say that these scientific results "don't mean anything", when in fact the findings are very obvious and clear.

There's some wisdom in the new Camper box set "Carrots and Cigarette Juice".

It says something when a person turns down a multi-million dollar future in Baskin Robbins to expose the truth of his family business.

crap.

A great thing about being a vegan is now I don't have to worry about how clean my cutting board is, because only meat is fucking disgusting like that.

Maybe you're thinking to stop chemical dumping associated with meat? No, that's the government's agenda.

Maybe the agenda is to help people lead healthier, happier lives? Well, yes, they should be shot for that.

Maybe they are just animal lovers? Shoot them twice for that.

you need to replace 'is what causes' with 'are factors that can contribute to cause'

It's not just about the hormones, pesticides, etc. Your fuckin' bowels were not meant to digest meat. Carnivores have bowels shaped like a plastic tube; the stuff goes right through them. Human bowels are puckered and meant to digest with a fermentation process. Meat clogs up your arsehole and saturated fat clogs your arteries. Animal protein forces calcium out of your bones. The list goes on and on...

The human body is pretty well adapted to eating meat its a question of balance. One of the functions of fibre/roughage is to clear out residual meat. You miht as well say we shouldn't eat greens because we don't have multiple stomaches. A good deal of the fat in meat is unsaturated and remember the best way to deal with saturated fat is to get some exercise. If you want to change the world try and pursuade it to walk to work rather than to not eat hamburgers.

" Canines = you would have a tough fucking time eating a hunk of meat without a knife and fork. You would have a tougher time eating it raw. Try it, it's good for ya!"

You do have to agree though that we are not built like other herbivores and especially not like the ruminants. Humans are omnivorous.

To briefly explain how wrong this is, I'll point out again that pesticides do not dissipate quickly (they linger for decades) and some were actually created for chemical warfare and meant to kill human beings in Viet Nam. Ridiculously small trace amounts will cause cancer. There is nothing remotely on the scale of these pesticides in the air you breathe or the chemicals in normal everyday use. Unless you're a welder or have some other dangerous occupation, everyday chemicals are not as bad for you as what's in meat. The amount of pesticides in one slab of beef is far more than the amount of pesticides on your fruit or veggies because in the case of meat, you are feeding from the top of the food chain.

Now, on top of that, these animals are fed a steady diet of antibiotics, which creates the perfect breeding ground for super-viruses that become immune to the antibiotics. The animals are sick and insane from the conditions, so they are given drugs to get their appetite up (since they are fed a combination of feces, newspaper, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides and cheap grain [also sprayed with pesticides]) and hormones to grow so large that their bones break under their weight.

And you eat this meat created by an an udderly (ha, ha) unnatural and repulsive diet and ingest massive amounts of pure SHIT. Man, nothing, not even cigarette smoke, will top toxic meat that is absorbed and reabsorbed by your large intestine that can't pass it along properly through natural peristalsis. Think about that next time your grunting and straining on the toilet.

So, for anyone who stumbles upon this thread in the future and is like , "What the fuck? That's crazy!" maybe a few will actually buy the book (Diet For A New America) or start looking at meat a little more skeptically and do a little research. Maybe someone will experiment with a healthy vegetarian diet (and take my advice about cutting out eggs and dairy, too!) and that person will notice changes in his overall health in as little as a month or two. In a year, he might notice he lost a lot of weight he could never seem to get rid of (his bowels finally unclogged and his metabolism shot up). He has a lot of energy and doesn't need coffee anymore (nothing good about being dehydrated, anyway). Hey, things don't stress him out as much anymore (maybe it was all those hormones in the meat? Roid rage?)

It would make me happy if one person benefitted from this thread, so it will be even better if and when that person tells 2 friends and they tell 2 friends and they tell 2 friends... like that old Prell commercial. Change is slow in a deeply-conditioned society, but when people find a good thing, they always want to tell other people. And you know what? Since John Robbins released his book, he's single-handedly devastated the meat and dairy industries in less than a decade and his vision has been picking up momentum ever since.

That would suit me fine, but I wouldn't trust the meat industry, personally. They've been caught in countless lies over the years. Organic meat markets are not so different from regular ones unless they are closely and regularly inspected by some outside party. This is an industry that was found to have widespread use of various chemicals and hormones THAT WERE OUTLAWED after they were specifically found to cause severe birth defects and found to be extremely dangerous. An organic "farm" still crams 'em in filthy, disease-ridden conditions, drives them insane (not good, stress causes diseases in the animals).

But, yes, it might be a tad better than regular meat markets. But, you still have the issue of animal flesh and cholesterol, which is no added benefit compared to a nice, healthy combination vegetable proteins.

No Cholesterol in your diet, you will be dead, its one of those thingwhich is necessary but dangerous in excess.

"What people don't realize is that "a little" is actually "a lot" and doctors have settled on unnaturally high blood cholesterol levels as "normal" just because we're all so unhealthy. Every year you get a little worse and a little worse and your likelihood of disease and death skyrockets!"

this is just irrational

"That would suit me fine, but I wouldn't trust the meat industry, personally."

UK meat industry is now several orders of magnitudes beter than that of pretty any other counrty. Its still not great at the low end, although better minimum standards than just about anywhere, but there is some excellent and fairly priced free range organic meat availible here. It's just a crime that it took a series of enormous catastrophe's to get to where we are.

"An organic "farm" still crams 'em in filthy, disease-ridden conditions, drives them insane (not good, stress causes diseases in the animals)."

Again if you want organic certification anywhere i Europe you just can't do this and I severely doubt that whatever organic certification allows such practices.

there are plenty of good reasons to be vegan or vegetarian including health ones, but you should get your facts right. Yes a veg/vegan diet is better than the average diet but then so is a well thought out omnivorous diet.

Secondly, it's not irrational. Do some research on cholesterol statistics. The longer you live with high cholesterol, your liklihood of disease and death shoot up drastically with each year (based on statistics, of course; there's no other way to measure it, is there?)

Thirdly, Europe is that place where they had Mad Cow, right?

I don't dispute this but this is not an argument for not eating meat, this is an argument for eating with moderation

Thirdly, Europe is that place where they had Mad Cow, right?

As a result of poor husbandry. Practices that caused mad cow have been outlawed in europe, but are still practiced in the US. Mainly the feeding of animal blood and bone meal to herbivores which is, quite frankly, disgusting.

The human affects of mad cow have been minimal and are declining but this is not the point, I know. It is symptomatic of poor husbandry techniques which mercifuly are either being outlawed or are dying out.

Fifthly, yes, I am only referring to American meat packing industries. If you know some guy who owns a farm and kills his own cows, that's probably almost good for you (but I still wouldn't eat it).

Sixthly, you have a point about the moderate and varied diet, but I believe for most people this means meat at every meal, just different kinds of meat. And it isn't only BEEF that causes all these things, it's fish, poultry and pork, too.

But what I always wonder is...when red meat and accumulated animal toxins don't kill us...and tobacco doesn't kill us...and alcohol doesn't kill us...and the air and water don't kill us...

...what will?

yeah this kind of shit is seriously annoying

gotta be said though that the approach you're taking to delivering the information on this thread encourages the "well they told me what to do so I'm gonna tell them how much I love meat!" attitude, which logically leaves much to be desired but which is nonetheless an observable phenomenon: the more insistent someone gets that a vegetarian diet is healthiest, the more meat-eating types feel compelled to go "But meat! It's yummy!" etc.

(NB canines=red herring, it's the length of the intestinal tract that's key, and "chimps eat meat" like once in a blue moon - plenty of monkeys are total vegetarians and only eat meat out of curiosity or extreme hunger)

All anyone needs to do is look at America. It's not a 3rd world country. We also have a melting pot here. And yet, we have a diet that gives rise to so much more disease than so many other cultures'. When easterners adopt a western diet, suddenly they develop the same diseases as westerners. Socieities which are mostly vegetarian do not have the high incidence of cancer, diabetes, MS, arthritis, hypertension, heart attack, etc. Put them on the American diet (regardless of where in the world they are) and they start getting these diseases much more frequently in a few short years. So, it is not one of the many causes that contribute to these diseases. It is the primary cause of these diseases.

Dan, to go to Burger King you'd have to be.

I have tried to be a vegetarian a few times, but never with much success - I even got glandular fever/mono during one attempt, and I am a person who eats TONS of fruits and veg. Now I'm just not interested. However, I do like things like seitan/mock duck.

I've just run inventory over my diet of the past few days and I do have a meat thing every day, but it's often something small like a few fish fingers or one slice of bacon cut up into puy lentil stew.

When I have to think of the real problems facing Americans with regard to their health I always come back to the same thing: PLEASE LEAVE YOUR CAR AND DO SOME FUCKING EXERCISE YOU LAZY CHUBBY TWUNTS.

WE CAN CHANGE THAT.

I used to be a veggie but I felt like I was missing out on something, boy was I ever right. mmmmmmmmm meat.

I think the thing people are calling you on is that you are ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE that goes into "the rise in vast array of diseases since WWII" (ie, overeating, lack of exercise, increased carcinogen use, increased industrialization, wider-spread healthcare/better statistics accumulation to name a few off the top of my head) to beat your particular hobby horse into Elmer's Glue. I don't doubt there's some merit to what you're citing and that a meat-heavy diet is a contributing factor, but it isn't the sole factor AND as you point out yourself with vegetarians/vegans who go carb-crazy the problem is much more tied up in the homogenity of diet and overeating than diet composition.

...what will?

The diseases and medical conditions to which you are genetically predisposed. Yes, what you choose to eat and how much you exert yourself does affect how these will manifest during your life. However, a Westernized diet doesn't create the tendency toward the "diseases of affluence," it merely increases the likelihood that they will manifest in a recognizable way.

Another issue regarding morbidity and mortality rates in Eastern countries that have begun to adopt Westernized lifestyles: have the incidences of these diseases been shown to have increased, or were they not as commonly diagnosed in earlier years? For example, in the days when people died of communicable diseases, do you know for a fact that these people weren't at the time experiencing the affects of undiagnosed cardiac/diabetic/cancerous/etc. conditions that might have killed them at a later date?

I have no qualms with vegetarians and vegans. But an individual's health is a matter of many factors, and I suspect that an emphasis on diet ignores other factors' roles.

I used to be a veggie but I felt like I was missing out on something, boy was I ever right. mmmmmmmmm meat.

-- chris (cbrassic...), June 19th, 2003.

That all by itself is enough to make anybody think twice: meat seems to have robbed our Chris of the ability to think original thoughts, or know a played-out attempt at humor when he sees one! Sad. But anyhow my point was that the way you made your point used a bit of overstatement and was unlikely to accomplish much. You might have said "This might sound weird, but DB's response to gore might have something to do with what he's eaten - cf. Scrooge to the ghost of Jacob Marley: 'You may be an indigested bit of roast beef'"

Last I checked, the beef industry was not a development of 1947.

(please note I don't actually eat sausage, that is a disgusting, filthy food)

I used to be a veggie but I felt like I was missing out on something, boy was I ever right. mmmmmmmmm meat

What's offensive isn't the thought - the way you put it in your recent post is great! Your way may not work for me. But this "mmmmm meat" - I mean, if I came in with

I used to be a meat-eater but I like I was missing out on something, boy was I ever right. mmmmmmmm gluten

Wouldn't you go: "Jeez, that was lame"? Of course you would.

So it's another part of our lives where we have to weigh up the benefits - and to me, food is very close to sex when it comes to sensual pleasure, and meat is right up there among foods - against the disadvantages (which Scaredy Cat, among his rather angry rants, which I actually find much less irritating and certainly less patronising than your superiorist dogma, John).

I don't know if it's possible for anyone to argue that meat production standards don't need to be raised. However, ever increasing numbers of people like Ed, Chris, me (when I'm being good) buying humanely raised, organically produced meat is the only thing which will realistically persuade the corporations to make the necessary changes to their methods.

I suspect that converting to vegetarianism will, to an extent, have the opposite effect on the beef barons. They'll cut prices, reduce investment in production and increase it in marketing and genetic modification; put pressure on public schools to raise their meat intakes; find new and all the more artificial ways to introduce meat into the diets of the poor and stupid, both in the western world and abroad. The big capitalist powers of the West already provide a huge amount of the 3rd world's resources - as well as baby milk and Michael Jordan, is it too ridiculous that they would ship cheap, shit-grade beef to Botswana and Vietnam too?

Scaredy Cat, John et al - do you feel as strongly about smoking and drinking as you do about meat?

you are failing to make a distinction between the two different types of diabetes. the causes of type 1 (early onset) are not fully understood but are thought to have a genetic origin and viral trigger. the causes of type 2 (late onset) are thought to be more related to diet, lifestyle, etc (though i've never read a direct "fat" cause in the literature). type 1 cannot be "cured" by diet, it's an immume system disorder. type 2 can often be managed through diet.

Censoring people's rights to say they enjoy eating meat is getting a bit fascist.

Nobody's talking about "censorship," so there's no "fascism" involved

-- chris (cbrassic...), June 19th, 2003.

yeah you're right all of us who enjoy seitan are just kidding ourselves

dammit Scaredy Cat why do you start threads like these when it just brings out the worst in both vegetarians at meat-eaters, I mean I'm sure Chris isn't the asshole he/she is coming off like and I know Dan isn't

-- chris (cbrassic...), June 19th, 2003.

yeah you're right all of us who enjoy seitan are just kidding ourselves

dammit Scaredy Cat why do you start threads like these when it just brings out the worst in both vegetarians and meat-eaters, I mean I'm sure Chris isn't the asshole he/she is coming off like and I know Dan isn't

I have no idea about america but all animal proteins have been banned from anything that is certified as organic in the UK since 1985, see the Soil Association website for details. The notion that it is a 'honor system' is bullshit the testing and inspections required to get certification and to keep it. even windblown pesticides can loose an organic farmer certification on a field of crops. it takes at least five years to convert to organic flushing all chemicals out of the system. Five hard years for a farmer.

Yes it is an honor system. Its the honor of the farmer at stake and that's what makes it work because if the farmer doesn't abide by the rules he will soon get found out.

Just imagine Catwoman narrating the pro-vegan parts and "When Doves Cry" era Prince narrating the carnivorous posts.

These two characters would work narrating any thread, really.

Which pesticides are you talking about that only impact meat and not vegetables, SC?

Yep, Mr D, this kind of thread *can* bring out the worst in both sides, but it's guaranteed to set you off on your little bitchfests.

''Censoring people's rights to say they enjoy eating meat is getting a bit fascist.''

john wasn't really 'censoring' anything.

Gloating over meat is inane; luckily when people do it around me, I usually have a fork to threaten then with. Gloating over not-eating-meat is really no better. Nobody gets converted either way.

My only real motive here is to say "hail seitan!", obviously.

I heart Layna.

Are you missing the top of the food chain concept that's been repeated over and over throughout this thread?

Moderation is as much of a factor as the things you're citing; an obese person would still be obese if he/she overeats. It's also easier for your body to fully digest smaller quantities of food. Overeating ANYTHING is bad for you; you can poison yourself if you eat too many oranges.

2. I smoke and drink alcohol, I eat meat with nearly every meal, and I don't exercise for shit. I enjoy unprotected sex whenever possible. I drive a turbocharged automobile at illegal speeds nearly every day. Instead of investing my paycheck I spend nearly all of it on booze, music and movies. I curse in public and don't shave on the weekends.

Add all that up and see if you think I'm going to care about your argument. I'm dead serious. If you still have trouble understanding where you and I differ, I'm here to answer any questions you might have. I hope you enjoyed making a fool of yourself.

This issue (like many) will get ppl to have strong opinions and sometimes a certain 'politeness' is cut out in the process.

Usually I overlook this stuff and argue with the 'content'.

"I hear they're throwin' in free chicken tenders with the whopper this week"
"yeah you're right all of us who enjoy seitan are just kidding ourselves"
"meat seems to have robbed our Chris of the ability to think original thoughts"

And that's leaving out your digs at me (which are fair enough, pretty much). And that's leaving out the streams-of-sarcasm in previous threads on the subject. Is it any surprise I react? I do try to argue the point, but no, I disagree with you, so you dismiss it. I'm under no illusion that I'm your equal when it comes to knowledge on the subject, so why do you resort to such pettiness?

Also, you were bitchy to a friend of mine. My good intentions go out of the window sometimes.

Your attitude toward your existance is just as lame as that of a vegan. Ho-hum, predictable. In 10 or 20 years, you'll probably look like a haggered piece of shit and feel like hell warmed over. That's your business.

Incidentally, Dan your argument about oranges is completely retarded. We're not only talking about pesticides, but if we were, we'd be talking about 1,000 oranges vs. 1 orange in a single meal (if cows ate oranges).

Also, point I've been making all along:

"Your business" does not equal "the truth". In other words, just because Millar doesn't care, doesn't want to believe, etc. does not make his argument true.

That's why this thread was started. If you project your own ideas onto this, that's your business.

That was his initial argument.

Then later it was, "I smoke, drink and drive fast cars."

1. read a newspaper because in it you will find lots of details about wonderful diseases you can catch that will kill you regardless of what you put in your mouth - also, the idea that meat is worse than cigarettes? Please. Besides, trying to argue with you on the grounds of fact is a completely worthless waste of time; you've proven this repeatedly.

2. "self-destructive rebel"- said with the utmost condescension, I'm sure - I never uttered those words (nor did I ever tell you to 'shut the fuck up,' in fact when I first posted in response to you I tried to be as profanity-free as possible, which to regulars should seem vaguely impressive), all I did was point out that extending my life expectancy is nowhere near the top of my priorities. Besides that, eating meat is nowhere near the top of the list of things that are likely to kill me, certainly not compared to the alcohol, tobacco, aggressive driving and, fuck it, choice of profession for that matter. But now I'm back to stating facts again, and we know where that gets us.

It doesn't matter what I say, none of this even registers to you. Every response you've posted has been knee-jerk, and there's not a single person here you've convinced of anything besides the fact that meat is an industry run by cruel and greedy bastards (surprise) and/or red meat in quantity may lead to an early death (son of surprise) - that and the fact that you are very, very annoying (surprise's revenge!).

Anyway, I just want to clarify, the "wood up yonder ass" as well as poking fun at Millar's rebel attitude wasn't meant to read truly as a vicious attack or anything. I'm just trying to wrap this up now that Millar's given his closing arguments. I'm not mad at anyone, so I hope nobody else is, either. But, I am done with this thread for now if it's going to turn into an attack festivus for the rest of us.

"I hear they're throwin' in free chicken tenders with the whopper this week"

That was just me jokin' with Chris P. 'coz I think he's a vegetarian! Not me being snotty! Chicken Tenders actually one of the few fast food items that still occasionally sounds like good eatin' to me!

Email me privately if you like about this bitchy-to-a-friend business, I try to be nice to everybody except when arguing on ilx0r since my assumption here is we're amongst friends & if we choose to enter high-emotional-content arguments (war, vegetarianism, electoral politics) then we go into it expecting to get heated up - Millar & I have gotten seriously steamed at each other before & come out of it friendly. So I'd like to clear up whatever it is that's got you takin' snipes at me.

I thank you for the advice and polite restraint.

And yes, the reason this thread was started was exactly to show how right I was. I was addressing the issue of my statement being "patently false". If you don't like it, you don't have to play along. I'm surprised so many people actually did. I expected a one sentence dismissal from Millar and maybe one or two people cracking jokes.

The orange example actually related to overdosing on vitamin C, not pesticides. The point was much less that you can get pesticides from oranges and much more that overindulging in any particular food item is unhealthy.

(Part of me is curious as to how many times I can repeat this before everyone reading the thread goes all Oedipal and gouges out their eyes [after sleeping with the mothers and killing their fathers, of course].)

"any particular food item except beer," I'm sure you must mean

The "kneejerk" reactions I've been accused of, I believe are evidence of me knowing what I'm talking about, which made it easy to argue any point thrown at me. I wasn't just throwing out random shit there.

The main purpose of the thread was to show that meat eating is the root cause for most of the diseases that we suffer from today (and I still stand by that). Toxins in the air, paint, laundry detergent, etc. are not as difficult to combat if you have a strong immune system, which is difficult when your intestines are filled with super-bacteria, and your body polluted with chemicals and hormones.

The other issue is just the meat (not the chemicals). Cholesterol is also the root cause of many diseases and found in the lean part of meat. This is a problem pure vegetarians don't have. If you take the argument to an organic meat-eaater vs. organic vegan diet, the vegan diet is likely to be healthier since human beings have saliva and intestines built for vegetables. Carnivores have much more acidic saliva and shorter, flatter intestines. They can "wolf down" all the meat they want. They were made for it. Also, even organic farms tend to use fish feed and since scientists have trouble finding fish that are not contaminated, by eating from the top of the food chain, you are eating all the contaminates ingested before you. This makes it decidedly more toxic than organic vegetables.

That's it, really, in a nutshell. You can argue that a little meat is healthy, but it's just not as unhealthy as other worse diets. Everything in moderation is a good concept, but that doesn't change the fact that meat is the root cause of most diseases that we suffer from today. It's not just the meat YOU eat since you were born. It's the meat your parents and their parents have eaten (remember, this toxic shit doesn't break down for decades). If disease has escalated this far in a few decades, it will only be worse in the future, as more kids are born sick or with defects.

i'm not gonna argue this, but you should really clarify that you don't mean just eating meat, but the TYPE of meat we eat. (right?)

Little factoid about Ted Nugent:  He's gone on the record as being against factory, mass-producing ranching. He says he prefers free range ranching to that, and hunting as the means for acquiring meat over all.

Scaredy Cat, you give vegans a bad name with all of your "holier than thou" sanctimony. Your talk about cancer and other diseases is nothing more than a pile of shit, a thin disguise to further your agenda that Everyone Who's Not a Vegan = sinners who will go to hell, and The Only True Way is that of veganism. I'm sure there are a number of vegetarians around here who are absolutely cringing because you are giving credence to the stereotypes about people who live meat-free lives, and they don't need that because they're perfectly happy with living their own lives and letting other people live theirs.

Oh yes, and most everything in this universe has the potential to be a cancer-causing agent. You want to tell my dad that he's got cancer because he's a Bad Man Who Ate Meat? Well, go right ahead, be my guest. Because the way I figured it, it was all the asbestos and lead he worked with in his many years in construction that contributed heavily to his disease. Gee, I didn't know that if he had just cut out meat from his diet he'd be a healthy man instead of the ghost of a human he is. You want to tell Mom that she almost died of cancer a long time ago because she didn't abstain from eating meat? Because I guess I must've been deluded to think it was the whole "cancer running in her family" thing that contributed heavily in her case.

Get off your high horse and let people eat in peace. Ok? Politics off the damn table.

You, sir, are correct. Reagan was in office the last time I (intentionally) ate meat.

This thread is an embarrassment.

Also sb's comment but claiming meat-eating represents some kind of health disaster is just a nonsense, not to mention an insult to all the Third Worlders who subsist on fucking grains and die at 40.

Nicely put.

We are all going to be riddled with illnesses while we live first world western lives. Deal with it, dudes.

i'm not gonna argue this, but you should really clarify that you don't mean just eating meat, but the TYPE of meat we eat. (right?)

Well, I wanted to be done with this thread, but I guess the intent behind this statement needs more clarification in a couple of ways than I had suspected until just now.

"Root cause of most of the diseases" definition: most of the diseases Americans suffer can be directly linked to meat eating. There are too many diseases, sicknesses/conditions to even take the time to list which are directly and dramatically improved in a short time on a pure vegetarian diet. True, a vegan can have high cholesterol, but that vegan is really eating a shit diet high in fat, which would be an indication that it's not so much meat that's the problem, but how much of whatever you eat. Well, that sounds true, but let's take a look at a little chart, shall we?

This makes me wonder what the hell this vegan was eating. Was this person actually a vegan? Did she eat coconut, palm kernel oil and chocolate (the only plant foods significantly high in saturated fat. Deep fat frying potatoes in vegetable oil would be cholesterol free.

Countries such as the U.S. which have a higher per capita meat consumption than almost any society in the history of the world also happen to have a higher average life expectancy than almost any society in the history of the world (which has increased by 30 years over the last century). You may be able to make a political point out of this, but claiming meat-eating represents some kind of health disaster is just a nonsense, not to mention an insult to all the Third Worlders who subsist on fucking grains and die at 40.

Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders and Russian Kurgi tribes, which have the highest animal flesh consumption in the world—and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only live about 30 years. Contrast that with other peoples, living in equally harsh conditions who eat little or no animal flesh and have some of the highest life expectancies in the world. Russian caucasians, Yucatan Indians, East Indian Todas and Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years (and their elderly are physically fit and able to work and play in the ages most Americans have 2 broken hips and Alzheimer's, even on their 100th birthday, retirement is unheard of).

The United States has the most sophisticated medical technology in the world, and on eof the most temperate of climates. One of the highest consumers of meat and animal products in the world, it also has one of the lowest life expectancies of industrialized naitons. Rated 24th out of 191 (not many of which qualify as "sophisticated industrialized countries).

The cultures with the very longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who reside in the Andes of Ecuador, the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Norther Pakistan, all of which are totally vegetarian or close to it. So, your reference to starving people who barely get by on one food source isn't much of a point, is it?

And finally, back to the issue of pesticides, for people who still don't get the comparison between meat vs. veggies pesticide issues. Meat contains approximately 14 times more pesticides than do plant foods; dairy products 5 1/2 times more. So, by eating anything, however little, from animal origin, one is ingesting greatly concentrated amounts of hazardous materials. In animals, as in humans, these chemicals are stored in the fatty tissues. This is why mother's milk is contaminated; a nursing woman's body draws on its body fat resservoirs to make milk. In these reservoirs, virtually all the toxic chemicals she has ever ingested, inhaled, or absorbed through her skin are stored. So, when you eat from a cow, drink milk or have cheese, you are not getting great concentrated doses of pesticides. Vegetables, having no fatty tissues, are far less contaminated. Vegetarian mothers are found to have 1,000x less contamination in their milk than meat eaters (only 1 or 2 per cent contamination as that experienced by the national average, the greatest percentage of contamination occuring in those with a heavy meat, dairy and egg diet.)

Interestingly, these pesticides also tend to collect in the male reproductive tract. This is pretty important. These chemicals are toxic enough that they can change the DNA molecule. Changes in chromosomes of sperm or precursor cells may be transmitted to all future generations of humans. Chromosomes can't be repaired (well, okay, we've mapped the human genome and can clone things now, so maybe we don't have to worry about this issue). A handful of dioxin is sufficient to kill ten million people (actually more).

So, in summary, I am not differentiating between red meat, white meat or fish. I'm also not saying that every person who gets cancer is due to meat-eating. When I say "root cause" I mean "of primary concern, moreso than many other factors (barring things more extreme like welding jobs, etc.) I am also referring to AMERICAN meat packing plants. I trust Ed when he says Europe is different.

So, yeah, that should clear up those last few questions. Hope I didn't make a bunch of HTML mistakes, cuz I sure ain't gonna look back and check.

little known fact, children of vegetarian mothers have been some of the greatest heroes of recorded history: Lincoln, Einstein, the Wright brothers, Werner Von Braun, John Lennon, Alexander The Great, Siddhartha Gautama

It's an issue of fact... and I haven't seen anyone besides myself and JO1n mention facts. There is a lot of what I'm sure seems to be logical guesswork by people who just react to something which seems a bit extreme, but it's coming from people who really don't know shit about the issues their arguing (quite obvious to anyone well-read on the subject, so please stop kidding yourselves).

"...So, when you eat from a cow, drink milk or have cheese, you ARE getting great concentrated doses of pesticides."

James, make a point, rather than being nasty.

When will your God allow you to rest?

as long as you're gone, that should be a breeze

Now that all the facts to back up the argument are finally in place, there's no more argument. There's just, "Why you argue for? We know that stuff..."

What's Nate's Burger King? I just noticed that. Is there a Nate here who owns a Burger King? I sort of read that as "Nathan's" before (the famous frank place). And also, my name is Nate. But, I own a Krusty Burger.

meanwhile

Here's where it all comes from:

My response to Donut Bitch anxiety attacks:

Donut Bitch, you're probably suffering emotional problems due to a shitty diet (just a guess). Cut out meat, dairy, eggs, coffee, cigarettes and alcohol for a full month (eat healthy instead, don't eat potato chips and spaghetti). Then, go back on the net and go straight to rotten.com or bangedup.com or some other sickness and see if it bothers you. If it does, continue with the new diet for another month. Keep doing this until you are dead because this diet with help, anyway, even if it doesn't cure you of this weird problem you have.

-- Scaredy Cat (pushki...), June 19th, 2003.

My second response (trying to help):

Seriously though, it's not just coffee, cigarettes and alcohol. Do you have any idea how meat & dairy is produced. It is the root cause of most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII.

Meat, dairy and eggs = the only generic foods that advertise regularly. What does that tell you? I can't remember the last time I heard a radio spot for vegetables, but I heard a dairy commercial about 6 times today and saw "Steak. It's what's for dinner." ads on the subway.

That shit is worse for you than coffee and cigarettes combines. Not sure about the alcohol, since being a raging alcoholic is pretty unhealthy lifestyle.

-- Scaredy Cat (pushki...), June 19th, 2003.

This was a half-serious, half-exaggerated post. However, studies have shown that vegetarian smokers are less susceptible to cancers, alcoholics less so to liver diseases and less damaged by coffee.

Millar's Response

This is so patently false that I advise you to shut up immediately. There are other threads where you can discuss the pros and cons of various diets from Vegan to Atkins and in between. I would however advise you to quit making statements like this one without first, I dunno, reading the newspapers once in a blue moon maybe.

-- Millar (tmilla...), June 19th, 2003.

And that is why he is being hectored.

Do you see now that this thread was not about spreading the word of veganism or nagging Millar for enjoying meat?

Similarly: So meat contains more pesticides than vegetables. Does your body absorb pesticides from all sources at the same rate? Etc., etc.

And even if this is true (which, sure, it probably is), the obvious answer isn't to individually choose to not eat meat because of the pesticides: We should be demanding an effective FDA that doesn't allow companies to sell us pesticide-riddled food! (That is, after all, more or less how the situation Ed describes in the UK improved, right?)

a vegetarian diet will not "cure" type 2 diabetes, the person will still have that disease, it won't be gone away forever. diet is a means of managing it not curing it.

you're talking complete nonsense about type 1 diabetes when you say that with a vegetarian diet the diabetic will produce "more usable insulin". type 1 diabetics don't produce insulin. that's what the disease is. a reference for you here .

Referring to Type 1, studies in animals have suggested that bovine serum albumin (BSA) is the milk protein responsible, and an albumin peptide containing 17 amino acids (ABBOS) may be the reactive epitope. (I don't know what the last bit means, just including it for your sake, if you do know what it means).

I'd have read it as well-intentioned warning that you'd end up looking ridiculous. Which you have.

Well that's a shame, because I can't be arsed to argue back. You said "J0hn belittles people on this subject all the time", which I'm sure is based on what you've read, and I'm saying "no, he doesn't. He's one of the lesser-seen non-preachy vegetarians." based on what I've read.

the cause of type 1 diabetes is not known. there are several theories and numerous studies in the area. a complex immune reaction to dairy is one theory, other foods such as wheat and soy are also implicated in this theory. there is no conclusive proof for what you are saying. here are some references which will give you information on suggested causes. please read them with an open mind and don't just assume that the one you want to be right is right.
causal theories listed at end
an overview of the different types of diabetes with mention of possible causes

*a famed meat palace in Chicago

(could some moderator move the quote mark in my previous post to the end of the line so that I can win this? Thanks)

EH? EEHHHH? EHHHHEEEHEHEHHEH???? *strains eyes*
...

*is flabbergasted*

No, for real.

If you need the vomit, just get yourself a glass, tip the keyboard towards the glass, and watch the magic roll downhill. (Yum.)

Hahaha.... oh, I kill me. Or someone else can, its for the best.

"And you may ask yourself - how did this vomit get here?"