Wedding Terror

Seriously--your parents WILL get over it. That's what they do, "We disown you and the Blessed Mother is crying!" then they realize she's not and it's all good.

I seriously choked up when I heard that. Only in a perfect world would every marriage be like that...

If you sent me to a Meat Palace, I would cut a hole in the wall with a steak knife to escape, kill you with the steak knife and fuck your husband/my dad!

ok, Ned Levi-Strauss...

Actually, this is such a weird divide. My parents are v. easy going (I mean they have to be right? Chinese Man marries White Woman in miscegenation shockah!), so when/if I get married, we'll probably just defer to what the brides parents want in order to make life smooth and happy for everyone.

I mean, it can be tough when people are of very different backgrounds (though my folks just went to city hall and then had a party at their apartment), but I've seen several really wonderful weddings that really incorporated both families and the couple's wishes, that it's hard for me to understand the "f*ck you" contingent here.

Like Chris Rock says, "Big deal if you take care of your kids. You're SUPPOSED TO."

They're also to divvy up the property and get the dowry settled so the woman can stabilize the family line by always being pregnant. Apparently.
-- Ned Raggett (ne...), July 11th, 2003.

You're confusing marriage (a legal/state concept) with weddings (a cultural/religious concept).

..well, if it starts threads like "Meat for Millar", then I guess it's all good for somethin'..

I mean, there's outside... and that sounds very nice, but wouldn't you be freaked out that it would rain or something?

'Zactly. Everyone wants to play til 6 in the morning!

If you're wanting to get married in the Catholic Church, at least one of the partners has to be Catholic, but it's perfectly all right for the other partner to not be Catholic. In fact, the other partner could be ANYTHING, including an atheist or a pagan. But you do indeed have to marry in a church to marry in The Church. This fits my "sometimes I feel like I am going to get married" ideas of what I would like my marriage to be like (i.e. very traditional service, slightly off-kilter reception). Watch, I've just scattered all the incredibly heart-stoppingly wonderful, handsome, AVAILABLE men here....

Oh yeah, and the whole pre-marriage routine can vary in style and rigidness, depending on how your parish priest is like. This is of course a good incentive to go to your parish's Mass services on a regular basis so you can get to know how the pastor is like.... *nudge nudge*

secondly, my advise is do what your fiancee wants ... esp. if she's already made arrangements.

This is all pretty irrelevant though, because your girlfriend does not want to get married in a church. I found myself in the same situation, and because I don't feel strongly about getting married in a church we decided that we would get married outside, in a different country. It was much easier to break it to them that we wouldn't get married in a church when the ceremony was going to be completely different in every way, rather than just getting married in a registry office. As chris said, it will only be the first battle. I think my parents are going to be more upset if it ever comes to children and the issue of baptism and schooling...

You have to sit your parents down, and calmly explain to them that you understand how they feel, but that you love this woman, she makes you ecstatically happy, and that you don't feel that you would be compromising yourself by not having a church wedding (assuming that's true)

You have to convince them that it's your decision as well as hers, or things could get nasty, and keep emphasising that your happy and she makes you happy, and its the beginning of a fantastic new life for you and your fiance together.

I just got married four months ago and the ceremony was the last thing we dealt with. We knew we were not going to be married in a church because it felt weird, as neither of us go to church (I'm baptised Catholic but hardly practicing and wouldn't really describe myself as Christian; my wife is Armenian Orthodox which is essentially Catholic but in another language and with married priests). Her family was uncomfortable with this so we found an American Armenian priest who agreed, after some persuasion, to perform a ceremony on the grounds we rented for the ceremony/reception (the Brazil Room in Tilden Park for Bay Area folks). He was pretty adamant that he could not do a full ritualized ceremony outside of the confines of a church but he more or less did; he did make us take communion even though I'm not Armenian Orthodox. Basically it boiled down to having a pretty untraditional priest (he wore sunglasses through the whole ceremony, making him appear, in my friend's words, as "The Priest from the Future") who knew why we were getting married outside the church, was more or less okay with this, and knew exactly what family pressure can be like and worked a lot to make everyone happy.

SO, what I'd recommend is finding a priest who can do the ceremony outside of the confines of the church but who will do as close to a traditional ceremony for you as you like.

Honestly, the ceremony is the shortest part of the wedding. Theoretically it is the most important part but you won't remember it as well as your cousin getting drunk and vomiting all over the floor later on. Trust me.

Hello.

I was told yesterday that if I don't have a Catholic priest at the wedding, I'm "disrespecting" my mother, and that then I shouldn't even bother having it in the hometown.

Awesome. How to deal with insane Catholic guilt trips?

Become a nun.

Emigrate to London!

Ha! My parents tried to pull this with me. Luckily my husband wasn't raised in any religion so I told them we couldn't have a Catholic wedding. I don't actually know if that's true anymore but they bought it and didn't push the issue any further.

This is all very tempting.

I understand why people elope.

Fiance is not Catholic, but neither is m dad (so she can play that card - "we had an inter-faith wedding!". My mom knows I have "anger issues" with the Catholic Church, but I should do this for her, or else I'm clearly disrespectful.

I honestly think one of the reasons they dropped the issue was that they were relieved we didn't elope. Maybe you should threaten them with that and see where it gets you?

Also, in the end we had a civil ceremony but it was preformed by some married guy who calls himself a "Reformed Catholic". He goes by the name Father Joe and (to my dismay) turned up in a collar. Even though they knew he wasn't really Catholic and it wasn't a religious ceremony, I think that made them feel better.

At this point, eloping sounds AWESOME.

I don't want to use my mom's lame tactics, but it might be something that works. I think she's bluffing. BUT STILL. SO NOT COOL. It's not my mom's show, here. Will she eventually get over that? Because currently, she's spittin' nails.

The fiance and I are totally fine with organizing something low-key in a VFW hall, which involves catering from a local Cuban restaurant.

I'm afraid, though, that the moms doesn't want me to have it in the hometown b/c: "What will her family think? Not in a church?!"

Why not have priest at wedding, just to please mother?

And be heavily pregnant? That'll show her!

don't have to jump through all sorts of Catholic hoops to have a priest anywhere near your wedding?

We're having an Episcopalian priest! And, we're traveling great distances so it can be near my parents, and my ancient grandmother.

That's it. Time to get knocked up.

xpost yup! A Catholic priest won't even consider showing up if it's not in a church. Some might, but it won't be recognized. I think this is my mom's backhanded and passive-aggressive way of forcing us to getting married In The Church.

Also, you'd have to take months of pre-marriage counseling courses, AND promise that your kids will be raised in the Catholic Church.

Maybe you could get an actor pretending to be a catholic priest?

but I should do this for her, or else I'm clearly disrespectful.

Can you gently point out that you are not getting married for her?

If that doesn't work, I'd just plan the wedding I wanted, have it where you want it, and make it clear that your mother is welcome and wanted at the wedding. But that it is YOUR wedding and YOUR marriage.

Molly I really hope she comes around. I know exactly how tough it can be trying to reconcile your ideal wedding with what your parents have in mind. Maybe she'll get used to the idea of a civil ceremony after a little time has passed? Yay for Episopallian priests = Catholic light.

Can you gently point out that you are not getting married for her?

Unfortunately that doesn't always work, esp if the parents are funding the festivities.

Before I had even contemplated getting married, I really wanted some lesbian pagan hippie flailing around on a beach to perform the ceremony.

Maybe I should just go back to that idea.

Good point, ENBB. The money thing was a small problem for me, but most of what my mother wanted, I was fine with.

Okay, now I'm voting elopement, too! ;)

lol Molly - see, you are coming at this from the wrong angle! Start with the lesbian pagan hippie ceremony idea, and she'll be all "whew, and Episcopalian priest!"

and = an

Can you gently point out that you are not getting married for her?

Oh, Sara, I did. She started screaming about some nonsense. She's of the impression that it's "FOR THE FAMILIES" (she actually screamed this out while we were checking out a venue that was having a wedding set up, and the goddamn unity candle was near where the officiant was presiding).

Oh, did I mention that we were JUST at the point where money was going to be put down for the date we reserved for the reception? Honestly, my mother pulls no punches with her emotional blackmailing.

My wife and her mother wanted us to be married in the church. My Mother-in-law wasn't married in the church, so we went to the ceremony and she has to sit in the back when they give communion (right word?). That's pretty conspicuous, so I can see your mother's point of view, given that it sounds like she's pretty attached to the Catholic church.

Having said that, we ended up getting married in the Beverly Hills courthouse because I just couldn't go through all the training / conversion.

She's of the impression that it's FOR THE FAMILIES she's obviously been talking to my mother alhtough mine seemed to think it was also for her friends.

ENBB, thanks so much. Her timing for maximum fucked-up-edness is pristine. "Either you agree to my way now, or we'll lose that venue", which is admittedly really cool, and would be awesome for the reception. Alas, I refuse to be bullied by her, as does the fiance, so I guess she has to calm down.

I obviously don't want to be "disrespectful", but I think she should show us some respect too.

Molly, I'm so sorry your mother is acting this way about your wedding. I hate that "the wedding is for the families" nonsense. I do hope you can work it out. I wouldn't hesitate to say that you think it would be hypocritical to make Catholic vows/go through Catholic training, when you really don't believe that way - or want to. You could say, "it would be like lying TO GOD!!!"

mine seemed to think it was also for her friends.

ha ha ha, god, it's all coming back now. "If we don't have a sit down meal that is served, no one will come to your sister's wedding, later!" (I'm sure Heather cared whether or not my Mom's friends came to her wedding...)

Maybe you could get an actor pretending to be a catholic priest?

A friend of ours is an internet-certified preacher/whatever and does lots of weddings. He always wears a collar and is hilarious. And legit!

FIND A NICE CATHOLIC BOY TO MARRYZ

Oh, she is pretty attached, that's for sure.

How Catholic guilt-ridden is this: "Do it my way, or you're being a bad daughter"? I don't want to be a bad daughter! Part of me wants to say, "Fuck it. Call a priest." But then I want to say, "Fuck you for being so controlling!" (I do love my mother, really)

by some married guy who calls himself a "Reformed Catholic"

This would make future mother-in-law shit her pants. Let me tell you it's tempting.

Molly, Ken C is the man to talk to about weddings it appears.

My advice: Elope. She can have a ceremony if she likes. You must make it cleat that drama and blackmail will drive you to it. Remind her that she is not getting any younger and it's not you who will need caring in a few years.

Then anounce that you are knocked up.

Plz post on youtube video of conversation.

Yours,

a bit of a bastard. Sorry.

MR PIKE ? U BECOME CATHOLIXZ?

Well, like I said Molly since having been married in the church and thus being able to receive communion is so visible, I can understand your mother. But I think you should just explain it to her and eventually she will understand.

Maybe you could get an actor pretending to be a catholic priest?

I like this one.

"Mom, this is the priest, Father Phil Oh."

Have the catholic wedding, then run outside and convert to islam.

Maybe you could get an actor pretending to be a catholic priest?

A friend of ours is an internet-certified preacher/whatever and does lots of weddings. He always wears a collar and is hilarious. And legit!

-- Ms Misery, Wednesday, September 5, 2007 3:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Not in New York...

Poor New York.

by some married guy who calls himself a "Reformed Catholic"

This would make future mother-in-law shit her pants. Let me tell you it's tempting.

Yeah see mine just chose to ignore that, I think. The fact that he looked like a priest was good enough to please them and my grandmother (who didn't know about the reformed thing).

He also had a great long island accent and a copstache. It was kind of fantastic.

Molly, I was raised Catholic, and yes - that IS the epitome of Catholic guilt-ridden-ness. Ugh. But the thing is that you are only going to get married once (hopefully anyway) and she should understand that you shouldn't have to grit your teeth and lie through that day just to make her happy. That won't be a good memory for you OR for her.

So, plan an elopement involving a surprised pregnancy with triplets. And make sure to make it clear that there will be a hippie lesbian pagan involved. And possibly drugs.

kv, awesome advice. Seriously. You can't argue with the insane and irrational. I've had plenty of years dealing with her, and it usually ends in screaming, her telling me I'm going to give her a heart attack (which includes her patting her chest). I think it's high time she stops acting like this to get what she wants.

YOUTUBE TO FOLLOW.

Sam, I have a friend who has his internets license too. I didn't know it worked in NY. What about TN?

Mr. Pike, we could serve HOT CHICKENS at the reception?

He also had a great long island accent and a copstache. It was kind of fantastic.

If he'll do a beefcake striptease after the liturgy, he has a deal.

The licensee should know where they can work. I'm just sad that New Yorkers apparently can't have Tori Spelling marry them.

Deadly re youtube, cheers molly! (xxpost)

That's how we could fit my mom's request of playing "YMCA" at the wedding!

I've had plenty of years dealing with her, and it usually ends in screaming, her telling me I'm going to give her a heart attack (which includes her patting her chest).

You have laughed openly at her about this, I trust.

Day-um Ned, that's cold man.

My mum will be able to legally marry people from 1st December. OK, she's Episcopalian, not Catholic, but I'm sure she could put on dog collar or even some wonderful robes and stuff.

her telling me I'm going to give her a heart attack (which includes her patting her chest)

http://timstvshowcase.com/sanford3.jpg

Ned! I've never! In my head, obv. Contrary to what the mom thinks, I'm not bad, OR disrespectful.

Cos your mama taught you that

AMEN, BRO

Also this is what came up on GIS for "fainting". Apt.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19078/19078-h/images/bw32_large.jpg

LOL FANTING NUNN IZ HUEG!i!

I vote for Kate's mother. Upstate NY, right? Whereabouts?

also, she got SUPER PISSED when I said we wouldn't play "We Are Family" or "Love Shack" at the reception. I later changed my mind and said, "Sure, Mom. We'll play it." NB at my sister's wedding, she got TANKED and yelled "LEEEEEEEROY!" during the section of where they sing "tin roof... rusted."

Well, she's based in Vermont now actually, but she could do Albany or anywhere in the Hudson Valley at a pinch.

Wow. So I guess this whole thing isn't really about Catholicism then, more about getting what she wants?

Actually, she's going to Canada to marry my cousin next summer, so, uh, have license to wed, will travel, I guess.

Humansuit, this appears to be entirely about getting what she wants!

We're holding out for a gay bishop to officiate.

humansuit, a little column A, and little column B.

Molly:

Get married in a suit. Make him wear dress. Everything else is as she wants. Go on. I dares ya!

So maybe there is a compromise? I'll play 'We Are Family' if you concede to a hippie-lesbian officiate?

Actually, bad plan! What if his ankles are nicer than yours. Could lead to jealous hissy fit thing! (xpost)

Way to fuck over controlling Catholic relative: tell them you are eloping to ROME so the pope can bless your marriage, and do not invite them. They cannot complain about this since you are getting married in the epicentre of HOLINESS and GOD.

Of course, you don't bother your arse actually getting married there. You have a quiet civil ceremony with your non-deranged friends when you get home.

Just remember to get your picture taken with Pope-a-like in ROME.

Way to fuck over controlling Catholic relative: tell them you are eloping to ROME so the pope can bless your marriage

Wait. Hang on, Mr M is your cousin!? OH NOES!

Pope-a-like

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/pope_looks_like_palpatine_02.jpg

it's true! he might look better in heels!

when i asked her last night, "what can we do to make this easier" she went off on a rant about how i immediately turned her down with her gay ass song choices. mind you, i apologised to her later that evening (when she initially asked) and said we'd do it. NOW SHE THINKS WE'LL BEND ON EVERYTHING.

it seems to me that compromising isn't such an easy option.

Molly I think you're going to have to hire a mediator.

Have a ceremony, keep her happy but don't have a reception that day (she can't blackmail you then). Later invite your friends on another occasion for reception (party), get blasted, drunk-dial your mom and sing "We are family" down the phone. Enjoy!

The joke is I'm actually thinking of taking a mediation course so if I'm anything to go by, don't!

I do not need her bullshit! Mr. Pike and I can plan a bitching wedding ourselves WITHOUT HER. She'll be invited obv., but the idea that she does not get to put her mitts in planning process will EAT HER UP. I hope.

I'm calling her bluff.

Can we come too?

Of course! Goat stew for everyone!

Well, will there be a Catholic priest? I'm not coming unless there is a Catholic priest.

Catholic priest also in stew.

Molly - I really struggled with this too and in the end we came to a pretty good compromise but there was still a lot of my parents (mainly Mom) in the actual reception. That was in the afternoon so L and I rented out a local bar for an afterparty that night which was only our friends and family of our choosing. We picked all the music and everyone had an absolute blast - it was very us. Aside from the actual getting married part the evening party was definitely my favorite part. Maybe you could do something similar so that everyone is happy?

Cheers! (xpost)

I love this thread now!

Also, here is the aforementioned married, Reformed Catholic priest who I've just realized looks like a gay porn star:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c287/expatrica/FatherJoe.jpg

Hit me up if you want his info. ;-)

Wow he does look a bit sketchy!

Totally, Molls. Have less to lose, that is the key. Cold hearted, maybe, but enough is enough. You will not be bullied, you are the willow. THE WILLOW, I SAY. Don't bother compromising, or rather decide in yr own mind what you're willing to offer her but don't let her agreement or non-agreement derail you. It's like offering a choice of cookies to a 4-yr old: would you like the peanut butter or the chocolate? No? Okay, then.

Mr Pike, you have luvverly ankles but perhaps a shave will be in order with those pumps?

Laurel - unfortunately it's not always that easy esp if you were raised with a lot of Catholic guilt! That said, I agree that if she can do that it would most likely be the best way forward.

ENBB, ideally, I wish we could all compromise and be happy. Thus far, it's not looking like that will happen. Time is of the essence, and if she's going to pull this shit, GAME OVER. Now that the planning can go back the way Mr. Pike and I had originally planned, I'm more excited than I'd been about what she was concocting.

Seriously: fun ceremony (WITHOUT catholic priest - sorry, humansuit and moms), fun catered food, and 60s soul and rocksteady = exactly what we want. NO GODDAMN UNITY CANDLE.

xpost My mom is the Dungeon Master of Catholic Guilt.

imagine the guilt with which your mother was raised.
perhaps in her eyes, it's a struggle to save your eternal soul from damnation

You know what, I think you'll have fun. And congratulations! xpost

Oh, I know. My grandmother was probably the Grand Wizard, coming from giant Polish Catholic families.

Thing is, my sister was DIVORCED (the shame! moms made sure that shit was annulled ASAP). In my mother's own words, she needs to "cool her jets."

I don't know from Catholic guilt but Mom Mummenschanz needs a taste of her own strong-willed medicine. The new generation must rule!

call in the Priory of Scion!

We had a unity candle, but we did NOT blow out the individual candles that we used to light it. That symbolism is just too crepey.

(Actually, I went to an Episcopalian wedding a couple of weeks ago where the priest used the phrase, "marriage is the annihilation of the self..." Oddly, the bride and groom did not flee the wedding. But they were probably not paying attention to the sermon, either.)

AMEN, LAUREL. AMENG.

I think it's high time I start searching for pagan lesbians.

Day-um Ned, that's cold man.

Shock treatment, y'see.

There's this thing called "Safe search" on your google. Turn that off and have fun... (xpost)

I do see Ned. I see you for what you are. I'm impressed Mr. Raggett you had them all fooled, but not me. I can tell what you are!

NO GODDAMN UNITY CANDLE

To that I say Amen. I didnt' even know about this unity candle, sand ceremony etc. business until I got engaged. Who knew it was so involved?

ps - The I have to put my foot down moment for me came when mine told me she'd picked the music for when we walked back down then aisle. ???!!!! That resulted in our big screaming
areyoufuckingkiddingmethisismyweddingevenifyouarepayingformostofit match. After that, things were a lot smoother and I picked my own goddamned recessional music.

Molly - GOOD LUCK! I really hope she comes to her senses and this is easier for you from here on.

I can tell what you are!

A superstar, that's what I are.

and that it helps to know you're not the only one with a crazy mom when it comes to wedding planning! :-) xpost

Well, whatever. YAY DANCE PARTY.

In this crazy world we call ILX, OTM (xxpost)

I mean, I gotta fly north or I gotta fly south, I don't really care which it is as long as there is drunkening and soul party.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL.

tbh, i wasn't so excited planning the wedding that my mom had her mitts dug in to so deeply. now that i will STAND UP AGAINST THE TYRANNY, b/c we can do this on our own, WITHOUT her, i am really excited. isn't that bad? i wasn't excited about planning the wedding with moms?

NB SHE WANTED TO SCRAPBOOK THE GUESTBOOK

Good luck Molly. I'm sure it will all work out somehow. And keep your mom away from the guestbook - that is crazy!

Also, she got PISSY this past weekend, when she started to give me her ideas of place cards (is that what they're called? the cards that tell you where to sit), and i said, "uh, well, we have an idea. we'll use old catalog cards and type'em out". SHE WAS MIFFED.

xpost Thank you, Sara!

we'll use old catalog cards and type'em out". SHE WAS MIFFED.

This is awesome.

"marriage is the annihilation of the self..."

George Orwell, 1984, Part II, Chapter 9:

Under this lies a fact never mentioned aloud, but tacitly understood and acted upon: namely, that the conditions of life in all three super-states are very much the same. In Oceania the prevailing philosophy is called Ingsoc, in Eurasia it is called Neo-Bolshevism, and in Eastasia it is called by a Chinese name usually translated as Death-Worship, but perhaps better rendered as Obliteration of the Self.

So in summary, this priest Sara heard is AN ENEMY AGENT. Or something.

--

And having been nothing but evil snark on this thread, good luck Molly! You will have it all worked out, I am sure. (Though you could always ask her if her mom made all her decisions for her wedding...)

Wow, that last part is great advice.

But then what if she says yes?

The place card idea is awesome. DO IT!

The slight downside. xpost

lol, Ned. The music at that wedding was inexplicably bad, too. Just four men singing a capella... badly. The fact that they were wearing Episopalian choir garb (or something) and that made me think of the magicians from Dr. Seuss' Bartholomew and the Oobleck did not help matters.

I was seriously suppressing hysterical laughter throughout that wedding.

I'm not sure if Gramma planned the wedding but I know the POLISH WEDDING HAT was involved.

POLISH WEDDING HAT?!?!?!

YES!

In many modern Polish-American weddings, the groom is also given a hat to wear. His hat is ridiculous, and usually includes such items as baby dolls and phallic vegetables.

http://www.weddingdialogues.com/December_January_custom_of_the_month.html

o_0

We have found the next level.

Wow.

http://www.polishtreasures.com/wedding/0180125.JPG

HI DERE

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/71/204451726_1a9ebc7709.jpg?v=0

I demand more phallic veget... wait, I don't.

apparently, my dad's helmet had a giant carrot sticking out the front.

Unacceptable. I mean the cups, at least you could conceivably drink out of them, that's borderline useful...except they look small.

The catalog card idea is really cool. Are you guys librarians?

Can I just point out the occurrence of the word helmet with regard to this phallic business? Thank you. Carry on.

Wedding hat? I never heard of it.

I was at a wedding recently where the priest got the couple to blow out the two candles before lighting the single one. A tiny bit of me was shocked that he had killed them before they had a chance to get married.

Yep! We're both librarians, actually.

Dad had a helmet and my grandmother put baby bottles and carrots in teh camouflage netting (dad is way into military history).

The Unity candle just seems weird to me. It's not part of any liturgy that I know of. Aren't the rings symbolic enough?

We're both librarians, actually.

"Our eyes met as we catalogued.
Our lips met as we indexed.
At ALA we romantically dialogued.
Librarians: truly oversexed."

Weddings: A Choose-Your-Own-Symbolism Adventure

xxpost: yeah, that Unity candle thing seems to be pretty recent - 1970s, according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_candle

The lighting of a unity candle was also performed at the wedding of Luke and Laura on the TV soap opera "General Hospital" in 1981, which almost certainly popularized the ritual to a national, if not international, audience. [2]

great.

I hate to say it, Molly, but god DAMN (hah!) am I happy to have the marriage behind me. Small or big, it's usually a hassle. That said, we should have eloped. Even though it was extremely low key, we're both planning to redo it anyway. Where? In Las Vegas. :-)

heh

http://www.80stees.com/images/products/General_Hospital_Luke_and_Laura_81-T.jpg

* crosses fingers that molly doesn't end up on http://www.marryourdaughter.com *

what in the...

is that for real?

DOs:

Be romantic! This is a marriage proposal, not a business transaction

ok no, it's not for real.

For a second I thought there were two 'y's and was thinking, "That's...illegal?"

they had me for a second! I are gullible.

"That's...illegal?"

and just bad advice all around.

Oh my gosh, I have little interest in getting married, but I would cry if those songs your mother wants played at my reception. Maybe you need to present your choices to her in a stronger manner? Not: how about these card catalog cards for places settings, but: We have decided to use... It seems your mother is not recognizing who you two are, your sense of style, of music, of play... She wants you to fit into her idea of what makes a good wedding. I might be tempted to just get married with a justice of the peace, and then throw a party for your friends.

"NB SHE WANTED TO SCRAPBOOK THE GUESTBOOK"

YHGTBFKM. I hadn't heard that. What is it with scrapbooking???

I like the Polish wedding hat. CREEPY PRE-CHRISTIAN RITUALS SNEAKING AROUND IN WEDDINGS = AWESOEM. We will also sacrifice a goat.

We brought up the unity candle fiasco to my mother last night, and after some prodding she admitted she thinks they're really tacky. But we can't tell that to Mommenschantz or her HEAD WILL EXPLODE.

I wd be more excited about pre-Christian rituals if they were less tacky. But you are doubtless right!! Too bad about the goat, but c'est la vie.

Can we sub a straw boater for the styro version?

Both of our moms were cool during the planning process....it was the eldest sister of Mrs. BLAM that was the pain in the ass. Upon choosing a date - a holiday weekend in the spring - she told us, in no uncertain terms, that we HAD to change the date b/c she was planning on being pregnant then.

This was a year and a half in advance of the wedding.

She has since moved twice, gotten two new jobs, and has been pregnant for approx. 0 minutes.

In the end, you need to do what is right and desirable for you. If this means a screaming match to get your point accross, or financially separating your mother from the festivities, so be it.

You need to make this be the first of many, many, many moves that you and your soon-to-be husband make together.

My understanding is that a wedding is a community affair, a gathering of witnesses and celebrants. It's not just a day where the bride gets to show off her good taste, or a chance for the couple to indulge their private fantasies. It's a feast and a party. A wedding that doesn't involve a wider community is just pared down to the bare bones of a legal contract, sanctioned by the state. That's a bit sad sack to me.

My general advice is to be gracious about what your family wants, but not supine. Just try to keep it a happy occasion for everyone who comes, and don't expect it to carry a heavy freight of your identity as a couple. You've got your whole married life to convey your identity as a couple. Treat it like a big party instead.

If you do it right, it will be fabulously happy day, just because you'll be surrounded by those who love you most, all wishing you happiness in a huge, overwhelming tide of happiness for you. In a week it shouldn't matter a rat's ass if you lit some stupid candle somewhere along the line.

So maybe they should just take all their mothers--I mean, various people in their wider community who love them the most and who violently disagree about what should happen -- in a room and follow the orders of the one who comes out alive? A capitol idea!

Aimless lives in a perfect world I'd like to visit sometime.

I'm thinking of giving my daughter and son permission to put me away if I ever start to behave like all these wedding-crazed moms.

xpost

I agree! Better for the families to spend the force of their violence on each other than for the happy couple to interpose themselves as a human blast shield. I much prefer letting them let each other's blood in the preliminary bouts.

Then the couple can seperate the combatants, make peace by fiat, and then say privately to each party, "We thought you were right all along, but what can we say? We have to live with {insert name} even after the wedding, so we had to let {insert name} get some of what they wanted, you know. For the sake of family peace. We knew you'd understand."

Lie to everyone! Why didn't I think of that!

Hahah whateves. Molls and Mr Pike will sort it out.

I think aimless has the best advice yet and what, in the end, we tried to do.

FYI - I meant this bit:

My general advice is to be gracious about what your family wants, but not supine. Just try to keep it a happy occasion for everyone who comes, and don't expect it to carry a heavy freight of your identity as a couple. You've got your whole married life to convey your identity as a couple. Treat it like a big party instead.

Aimless, you imply that we're being obstinate because we won't do a few silly rituals and hire a corny DJ to please the "community."

I think you need to understand that we're making arrangements for a wedding 900 miles away from us, and nowhere near any of MY family, for the sake of Mrs Mummenschantz and her extended family and large number of friends.

The candle business is indicative of a much larger issue: that Mrs M won't be satisfied with Molly's happiness, but instead has brought up a succession of demands designed to bring our plans exactly in line with her taste. One concession has brought another, and another, and another, because what's clear is that she will not be satisfied until it's (a) a Catholic wedding, and (b) every detail of the wedding outside the liturgy matches her desire.

We're NOT going to be able to find a priest to marry us: we live together unmarried, I won't "convert" and she won't practice, we won't be subject ourselves to half a year of pre-marriage counseling with a Catholic priest, and we will not raise our children in the church. That's a hell of a sticking point. I tried to resolve it by having a priest of my mother's much less dogmatic faith handle the wedding, but it has been made clear that it won't do. If the pressure of the "community" is making future mother-in-law resort to emotional blackmail and lies to coerce us into doing what she wants, we will make other plans.

You act as though we're selfish pricks who won't deign to accomodate people with different tastes. That's bullshit. We have made changes, and we're happy to do so. But you don't know us, or the personalities involved, or the fact that many people we know and love, including my family, would be miserable to see us faking at being Catholic.

If the unity candle was the whole of it, we would light the damn candle. But it's not: it's about a mother whose lack of empathy precludes her from taking pleasure solely in her daughter's happiness. And fuck you for acting like that's our fault.

It seems this wedding couples vs families FITE happened very recently. Or maybe it's just deja vu.

man your soon-to-be mother-in-law sounds like a bitch

(no offense)

yea i seem to recall a similar discussion, can't remember which thread though... i swear it happened maybe a month ago?

(xxpost)

Oh Pike, I didn't think that's what Aimless was saying and if it was then I don't agree.

lolz at Shakey

Well, you know, bring a problem to ILX, get judged six ways to Sunday. It's kind of in the playbook.

xpost

orlly? Who said one word about fault?

Mother M sounds like she is being a mighty selfish prick to me. But if you don't already have a good way to cope with her selfish prickliness, then you're going to have to find one eventually. Since it is unlikely that you will exclude her from the wedding altogether (however tempting that may sound at the moment), you may have to content yourselves with living 900 miles away after then wedding is over.

If the differences are totally irreconcilable, then it would appear to me that you will just have to bite the bullet and treat them as irreconcilable. For me that would mean deciding things for yourselves, telling her what you decided and why, then all of you dealing with the fallout she precipitated. This way is guaranteed to be very painful for a long time, but sometimes pain is both unavoidable and not your fault. Your play.

P.S. I will fuck myself at a more convenient time, if it's all the same to you.

She's being a mother, and one who's used to getting her own way; the shit=fit can be side-stepped, I think, by a little display of independence. I think Aimless is extrapolating needlessly about how many years of pain that will result in(?), sometimes people who boss you just need the wind taken out of their sails. I feel strongly that this is a "call her bluff" situation, not an "exclude Momma from the wedding train" situation, and that all will end well. It's not irreconcilable, it's just emotional over-involvement.

I am roffling hardcore at ILE posters' willingness to talk shit about other posters' moms.

I am very fond of Mr Pike's mother, Dan. :( She is a Southern Belle of the best and most practical kind, as you should appreciate. Molly's momma I do not know but I have a good mental picture.

The problem with what you are saying is the word "community." The Pikes are religiously and culturally very, very different from the Mummenschantz clan. I have never been to a wedding in my family that includes a unity candle, for example, and we are not Catholics. Most of the people at the wedding will be family and friends of Mrs M, and they're a fairly homogenous bunch-- but my family doesn't share that, and in fact would be excluded from participation in the ceremony by Catholic dogma. Much of the same applies to our friends.

There isn't a lot of common ground here. Mrs M would identify "community" with her religion and taste, and chalk up any difference of opinion between us and her to a lack of respect for her faith and person. She's under a lot of family and social pressure, I'm sure, and that's causing her to behave particularly erratically (though she isn't a model of reason and balance normally). I'm sympathetic, but I won't allow her to lie to us and manipulate us at the expense of my own happiness and that of anyone except her and her "community."

In defense of Mrs M: I think she's afraid of what her OWN mother will think. And she also comes from a cultural background where the mother really has absolute power in these affairs, so she really has a meltdown when anyone tells her "no."

Hey Ben! Hey Molly! Good luck with all this crap :(

Just a wild thought. Is there the ghost of a chance that mother m's parish priest might be able to talk a little sense into her on some of these issues? A woman who still quakes at what her own mother might think is altogether likely to roll over and do what her priest tells her is right.

I realize that, being 900 miles from her parish and unconnected with her church would make this a long shot, but I can't imagine a decent parish priest wouldn't be equipped with some experience in such matters and a sense of what is ractical. "Decent" being the operative word here, of course. The dogmatism of the church is stronger in some than in others.

I fully expect Moms to go to confession and have a heart to heart with her priest.

It's not irreconcilable, it's just emotional over-involvement.

Laurel is totally OTM. She is SO USED to getting her way. I am hoping once she realizes we don't need her input/help for possibly the biggest day of our life, I'm hoping she gets some fucking perspective.

My understanding is that a wedding is a community affair, a gathering of witnesses and celebrants. It's not just a day where the bride gets to show off her good taste, or a chance for the couple to indulge their private fantasies. It's a feast and a party. A wedding that doesn't involve a wider community is just pared down to the bare bones of a legal contract, sanctioned by the state. That's a bit sad sack to me.

This isn't going to be the Mummenschanz and Pike show. Why do you think we wanted to have a priest in the first place? I'm happy with a JotP or a hippie pagan lesbian. We were trying to keep it simply as a "big celebration", because that's what it should be about. Moms' actions show that it should be otherwise ("I'm going to invite ALL my friends"). Do you compromise what you and your fiance want to the point that everything down to the scrapbook guestbook is dictated to you? Because that's what is going on here.

Aimless, I hear you, and I hope for the best, but I don't count on it-- I bet what she explains to the rector is going to be unrecognizably muddled by her own self-deception and desire to look like a victim/martyr.

your mother invited people? aren't you the one that's supposed to be doing the inviting?

Yup. and Yup.

This was all sort of the compromise, I guess. I don't really know these people too well, but they are important to my mother, so sure, they can come.

"tradition" sez: mother of the bride in charge of wedding
"tradition" sez: father of the groom in charge of rehearsal dinner

In the end, you need to do what is right and desirable for you. If this means a screaming match to get your point accross, or financially separating your mother from the festivities, so be it.

also, thanks BLAM. I've felt awful for screaming at her (several times -- ahem), but she needs to realize that this isn't the Mommenschanz show.

I am lucky that both sets of parents were smart/kind enough not to try and pull any of this controlling/planning stuff with my wife and I for our wedding... I would have told them to all go fuck themselves in no uncertain terms if that had been the case. The worst we had to deal with was worrying about how my mom-in-law would react to being in the same room with the rest of her family after 15 years of not speaking to them.

I have no useful advice sorry :(

No no, that's okay! I need to build up the courage to say officially, "Go fuck yourself" and tales of others brave enough to do it are inspiring.

NB I'm not a wimp, and am happy to speak my mind, but dealing with such a mother is a bit troubling.

well, such things are tricky cuz its basically a game of chicken between you and (in this case) your mother as to who's more willing to alienate the other and who will take that harder, i.e., if you yell at your mother to stop trying to control everything because you need to be your own woman and this is YOUR day more than it is hers, etc., would she be willing/likely to disown you and how okay with that would she be. (And if she thinks that IS okay, ayiyiyi)

The one thing I learned from my experience is: do exactly what YOU want. We compromised on one tiny, tiny thing with my parents and my other half hasn't let me forget it to this day!

If something is important to you, even enough that you actually have a preference about it, do it - one of you will end up resenting either the parent or yourselves for giving in, otherwise, and memories of the day will be clouded by the whole big deal. (If it's something you genuinely don't care two hoots about, e.g. colour of flowers, but yr mom is insistent, then you may as well appease on those things...)

It's hard if it causes fights, but I guess your best bet is to just quietly go ahead do what you feel you want for YOUR wedding. Explain why you're doing it and don't feel you have to overly justify it.
Hopefully the quicker she accepts it the easier it will be.

Oh c'mon, just tell Mommenschanz that if she withdraws her support, the alternative is a nice dress and a JotP in the city where you live. She'll totally come around. Like I said: just have less to lose.

Thing is, she's really easygoing about things like flowers, cake, etc. (well, I should say thus far, anyway - wedding is next summer), and seems to like my ideas. Mr. Pike and I both have our preferences, as does she, and if we don't do what she wants, obv. we're both being assholes. "IT'S FOR THE FAMILIES." Actually, mom, it's not entirely about you.

xpost - Exactly, Laurel. I call her on her bluff and raise... ONE MILLYIN.

"IT'S FOR THE FAMILIES"

The amazing thing about that "reasoning" is her presumption that she speaks for MY family as well as hers. Honestly, it shows the extent to which she has identified her taste and opinion with UNIMPEACHABLE FACTS ABOUT THE UNIVERSE.

"fight the real enemy"

Oh molly and Mr. Pike, you have my most heartfelt sympathies. I'll help man the barricades for you when it comes to standing up for what you want and not caving.

After completely scheduling one wedding, I was told by my mother that the festivities could not possibly happen on that date (for a vague but pressing reason). Uh, ok. I rescheduled it by moving the whole thing up from October to May 31--in March. I replanned an entire wedding in 3 months... and that thing she was so worried about? Didn't happen. Now she feigns ignorance with regard to changing the date.

she's really easygoing about things like flowers, cake, etc. (well, I should say thus far, anyway - wedding is next summer)

Just wait. If she's stubborn about this thing then she's got a whole year to get more "involved" in the other things.

My mom probably wanted me to get married in her Catholic church, but even though I'm totally, completely, vehemently secular I respect other people's right to have their religious beliefs - and getting married by someone who I have no connection to, in a place that means nothing to me, under the guise of something I'm often quite opposed to, seems to make a mockery of the people who actually are into the Catholic church wedding thing. I'd be totally faking something that a lot of people take seriously.

So my sister and my wife's brother performed our wedding. He got his ULC certification and as far as I know it was legal. A couple years later during the height of the Catholic church molestation scandal my mom told me how happy she was that neither of her kids got married in church.

getting married by someone who I have no connection to, in a place that means nothing to me, under the guise of something I'm often quite opposed to, seems to make a mockery of the people who actually are into the Catholic church wedding thing.

so totally OTM

I have a bumper sticker for you guys:

http://i15.tinypic.com/4kndhcw.jpg

The Pikes are religiously and culturally very, very different from the Mummenschantz clan

The moomins do Romeo and Juliet.

Sorry just the way I read it earlier.

I don't really know these people too well, but they are important to my mother, so sure, they can come.

That sounds fairly normal at most weddings. It's the financial commitment they make gives them a couple of free passes. Also there are people that you might not think of that feel they should be there having seen you both grow up.

So, I'm going to email the parents today (calling will probably = screaming match). Here are the options:

1) We elope.
2) We have the ceremony down here at the non-denominational chapel and the reception in buffalo
3) We do it all up there, as long as Mommenschanz chills the fuck out.

Good plan.

HEY ELOPE TO NY!

No don't do that, elope to, like, London, where you'll actually be on vacation.

That's a good idea!

yrs
Someone Totally Impartial :)

good plan, and having a list of choices might make it feel like she's actually picking, rather than being 'disrespected'. but just accept that there's at least one huge family blowout in every wedding that isn't an elopement, from what i can tell. i did mine long distance for several months over the guestlist, it finally came to a head when we visited and toby actually stood up to my dad, which was bad at the time, but obviously serious enough to make them realize we weren't backing down. by the time the wedding rolled around, they were convinced everything had been their idea and they loved it. so seriously, stand up for what you want, and after you've done that you can develop compromises along the way that will make her feel happier.

Good plan, Molly = and good luck! Hopefully your mom will get the message.

Best of luck!

You're all very optimistic, I fear, but still: good luck!

Thank you, all!

I've just sent the email for Ben to proofread.

I've included such gems as:

I'm sorry you feel that by not doing what you want, we're being disrespectful. We by no means intended that to happen. We both feel that we shouldn't be doing something that makes us uncomfortable on our wedding day.

Molly I really hope this works out for the best. Parents are the best, even when they are being completely hard-headed.

getting married by someone who I have no connection to, in a place that means nothing to me, under the guise of something I'm often quite opposed to, seems to make a mockery of the people who actually are into the Catholic church wedding thing.

I ended up fighting my second cousin's case on these grounds, expect it was a none-Church of England wedding.

Good luck Molly.

Stan, I hope the moms is bluffing. But, if not, oh well. As Laurel said, moms has more to lose. She's going to have to explain to all her friends why it's not in Buffalo, while Mr. Pike and I just have to do some hardcore saving.

xpost thanks, humansuit and all! my parents are totally awesome in so many ways, but this is just one of their less-desirable quirks that you have to deal with, i guess.

my parents are totally awesome in so many ways, but this is just one of their less-desirable quirks that you have to deal with, i guess.

Some wouldn't take the long view this generous way -- proof yer a good soul. Good luck indeed.

I know what you mean. Before I went to college my Dad got fuming mad at me because I'd rather play soccer than tennis. He said I'd get injured, and I was just arguing to disagree with him. (?)

Having a child now, I know how insane I get with worry.

I wonder how much is based on your mum's experience at her own wedding. I just think that she might see this as normal all this anger. I dunno though. I don't know your mum.

Yer man Pike seems nice enough though. Good catch both of you! Ben = good strong name. As a fob might you suggest that first daughter within wedlock will be called after her if she agrees and if she doesn't first daughter of out wedlock will be called after her.

Failing that, first son.

They're funny about names in the South.

Moms got to plan, pretty much entirely, my sister's first wedding. Also, if you couldn't tell, she's a bit of a control freak. I stressed to her when we got engaged, that we wanted something "simple", but I think she forgot about that part.

Also, I'm not naming my kid "Barb", even if the child is a bastard!

I didn't read the thread. Has it been asked whether the parents have provided any significant funding for the wedding?

Name him Barb Arian. On second thought ...

Yes. Mum is paying for it I think.

Barb and second kid Ella. It would be BRILLIANT!

n/a, we're just about to tell them thanks, but no thanks with the $$ if there are so many conditions that can't be compromised on.

NO NO KV TERRBILE!

Oh yeah ok. We felt like we had to give in to parents' wishes for our wedding since they were paying for the bulk of it, but fortunately their demands were pretty much limited to a) us arranging a dinner for the families the night before and b) "play some music we can dance to."

Ha ha! (xpost)

Yeah, her (not so much my dad) requests go above and beyond that, and throw in some Catholic guilt to boot. It's just too much of her to ask, and we can't in good conscience accept the money if it's going to be a mockery of what she believes in. I don't think she understands by turning her Catholic priest idea down, we're respecting her views even more than if we went through the motions and had one officiate.

I kinda feel like the "traditions" of the wedding are getting to be a moot point for all but those devoted to living the Barbie dream. Do parents still have any rational obligation to pay for it? I have no idea -- you could easily say not, since couples are usually older and the post-Victorian white wedding has become a MONSTER and not what the family was originally responsible for at all.

So...if parents are feeling charitable they can offer funds, otherwise our young couple will just have to make do...and if that means dinner in their adopted home city for a dozen friends, then parents who don't want to get the bill can just...adapt. I guess?

Yeah, I think they're going to just have to adapt. It's weird. My parents didn't raise me to act like how my mother is currently acting.

You'll be amazed how like her you'll behave in future. That is the curse of being a son/daughter :(

OH DEAR GOD NO

Well, I can already tell that I act like her in some ways, but Mr. Pike keeps assuring me I'm not as batshit in this way as she is.

He is trying to lie to himself as well! It's okay, he'll turn into his parents! It's all fine. Ignore me plz, on a bit of a downer.

I take the point of view that my parents will turn into me. (Aside from the hair.)

the threat of elopement may have worked. or not. i'm also receiving emails from my sister saying that this will DIVIDE THE FAMILY FOREVER.

i'm getting to the point where eloping sounds fucking fantastic.

That sucks! It might make it easier though...

Wait, Molly - does your sister think you should just go along with what your Mom wants you to do? Because that would be really annoying.

She sent me this bizarrely passive-aggressive and threatening email, saying she's afraid our family may "never be the same," and she doesn't want to see "anyone be so staunch in their stand that it drives a horrible wedge nto our current and future relationship as a family."

also, keep in mind when i called her, she TOTALLY PLAYED INTO MY MOM'S PATTING OF HER HEART. She said something along the lines of, "I don't want this to stress them out because they're not going to be around forever."

NO SHIT SHERLOCK. IF YOU HADN'T BEEN SUCH A PANSY AND STOOD UP TO HER FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, MAYBE THE MOMS MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE WELL-BEHAVED.

/end rant

Molly OTM!

(we're not really helping, are we?)

Your sister is an idiot. Forget her. The family survived her wedding spectacle and also its eventual result, they'll survive this. Duh.

no no! it's great! i was bummed out last night after reading my sister's email, which lead to a large consumption of wine. I WILL BE STRONG. i shall fight the passive-aggressive and controlling bullshit TO THE END.

xpost Yeah, totally Laurel. I should respond with: Catholic Moms survived yr divorce. She'll get over this.

YOU SHOULD!

Catholic Moms survived yr divorce. She'll get over this.

OH SNAPS

Put "OH SNAP" in the subject line.

hahaha xpost

Thing is, I'm happy to just ignore my sister's idiot comments, in an attempt to not have her against me as well. Maybe that's be being a pansy too. I dunno. If I were ready to give everyone a big FUCK ALL Y'ALL, then I would. I'm not there yet, but recent events and emails are sending me on that track.

nd she doesn't want to see "anyone be so staunch in their stand that it drives a horrible wedge nto our current and future relationship as a family."

What the fuck does she think your mom is doing?

My mom tried a little of this crap with me, and I finally had to very firmly tell her "Mum, you already had YOUR wedding, this is MY wedding, back OFF."

It worked -- mostly.

EXACTLY. BACK A SISTER UP FOR CHRISSAKE.

whoa i missed all this but sorry it is sucking. maybe you could appease all parties by asking pat lafontaine to officiate?

Ugh, sisters are SO not supposed to do that!

I know, right?

Do you think Gilbert Perrault officiates weddings? B/c I know my mom would probably be really cool with that, actually.

This thread is just reminding me that my wedding is not for another year and there's already been some bullshit between Babycakes and her mom and aunt over the guestlist. Similar passive aggressive bs in insisting we invite people who were friends with Babycakes' late grandparents from their old church, people who haven't seen Babycakes since at latest early childhood and are not like particular close to anyone presently living. This, despite our insistance that this is a more intimate occassion and that the reception hall we're using only holds 75 people anyway. The issue seems to have blowed over although I'm not entirely sure what the outcome was or if it even matters. I just want to get hitched and make babies later, why is this such a damn deal?

we eliminated a lot of bullshit by keeping the place small as well - our reception venue could only hold 50 people max, which was just barely enough for immediate family and friends. I've never understood the impulse to invite people who don't really know you or give a shit about you to a wedding.

The only way I managed to deal with guest list horrors at wedding number one was to tell my mam and mother in law that they could each invite a certain number of people. 40 each, to be exact. That would cover the family end of the wedding.

Of course, mother in law came back with a list of 65 people who simply had to be invited. I just gave it back and said "great, but you can only bring 40 people, so you have to cross off 25, or I will". Pleasantly, like. It worked. I was amazed.

Oh, the guest list hasn't even really been discussed fully yet.

This whole thing is fucking depressing.

"great, but you can only bring 40 people, so you have to cross off 25, or I will".

^^^ the way to go. although man 40 people apiece for both moms seems like a lot! Didn't YOU get to invite anybody?

I guess we also avoided a lot of these conflicts by paying for almost everything ourselves. Mom-in-law paid for the wedding dress, my dad paid for our honeymoon, and my mom kicked in a little bit but that was it. The bulk of our expenses went on our credit cards... which is probably more feasible the smaller you keep arrangements (our venue was outdoors, other family members generously supplied the homemade liquor - mostly what we had to pay for was flowers and food and stuff like that)

Passive-aggressive email recieved from Mommenschanz with the line:

But--you do what you gotta do for your Mom!!!

(in reference to the errands, etc. she runs for my grandmother)

DRINKS PLZ K THX

xpost: The 40 people included ALL family except siblings and parents. We had a total of 150 people at the wedding, which was made up of 40 family members from each side, about 10 actual parents and siblings, and the rest were friends (I forget how many that is).

It was easy for me, though, because in Ireland you can really only get married in a church if you've a large wedding, because the registry offices are all tiny and you can't legally get married anywhere else. So everyone just gets married in church, which actually makes a church wedding kind of meaningless (as I think someone pointed out upthread). I fully expect that when they change the laws about wedding venues, you'll have plenty of Irishers coming on to threads like this with the same problem you guys are having. I don't envy you.

Second wedding: me, Mister Monkey, JOP, my parents, our friend Lorraine, in a park in Halifax, NS. Sweet.

I am sorry your wedding is becoming a source of woe, Molly. Especially if you just wanted something simple and laid back.

So your mom thinks your wedding is an errand for her, Molly? How sweet.

Okay, but running errands is so not equal to having a Catholic priest officiate your wedding when you are not, nor do you wish to be, Catholic!

Nawh, she was just pointing out what she does for HER mother, and I obv. should have a Catholic priest officiate to be a good daughter.

SUBTLE AS A BRICK, MOMS.

I would just like to note for the record how totally stupid the "1-Year-of-Catholic-Marriage-Counseling" requirement is for Catholic weddings.

among other things.

Catholic priest officiate your wedding when you are not, nor do you wish to be, Catholic!

But Sara, it's ABOUT THE FAMILIES!

Fuck the Pre-Cana classes. Also, I'm living in sin already, and I highly doubt they'd look too highly on that.

Huh, weird, cuz I thought it was about the marriage and the family is there to witness and support the marriage.

Oh, MOTHERS.

Oh, Molly - you're right - there's your angle! My sister couldn't live with her fiance because the priest would then refuse to marry them. Possibly this is true of other Catholic priests?

xpost Sara, I thought so too!

Ahh well. I guess I just have to reconcile the fact that my mom will think I'm an asshole because Mr. Pike and I want the wedding to be special FOR US. Go figure.

The thing is - unless one of you is a practicing Catholic, most priests wouldn't marry you. You might want to contact her parish priest - he would very possibly side with you.

Jaq OTM

She'll get over it. Hopefully in time for the wedding. (In my experience, the actual wedding day overwhelms moms and they forget how aggravating they have been during the planning and also that they had Other Ideas. I hope your Mom is like that.)

Yeah, that's perfect back up ammunition, Jaq! My main argument is, "Moms, we're not getting married IN a church. Therefore, no Catholic priest will even consider it." I should go all librarian on her ass and make a pathfinder of Catholic resources, with nifty citations and links.

Thanks, Sara! I hope so too.

Hahah, do it Molly. The more official the imprimatur, the better.

That would be awesome!

(fwiw, I finished my conversion to Catholicism 1 month before I was married the 1st time, when through pre-Cana and a Tobit weekend. It's possible I converted in reaction to my family's absolute terror of Catholics.)

Jaq's OTM re: the likelihood of a Catholic priest marrying a living-in-sin, non-practicing Catholic outside of a church. Weird that your mom even considers this a possibility.

For all of these reasons (and more) I am 100% glad I planned and executed my wedding in 3 weeks. Even so, I STILL wanted to kill my mom before it was over.

It's probably more like she just hasn't realized that Catholicism is SO MUCH NOT part of your life, and she's sticking on the wedding point b/c she doesn't want to admit it to herself.

Ie "where did I go wrong???"-style hand-wringing.

I have never and possibly will never understand why wedding = mom loses her mind.

In which case I say force the point gently down her throat, because it's not like you're ever going to live a lie to spare her admitting to herself that you don't share her religion.

Adding to what Laurel is saying, yeah - if you get the point across to her now, if you have kids, maybe she won't start with "but you have to baptize the baby in the Catholic faith!!!"

I don't know. I don't think mothers ever give up.

Laurel, exactly. The email from my sister mentioned how they're so "hurt" that I've rejected their religion. When I was in high school, I kept up the charade with my confirmation, etc. because I knew it would make her happy, and it was what I was supposed to do. I don't know. Maybe that added to the current shitstorm we're now experiencing. BUT I'M ALL GROWED UP NOW. I can't and won't carry on such a farce.

xpost Sara, yeah. This hopefully will ease her into it.

but your babies might go to purgatory!!!

also didn't you see that statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe that CRIED REAL TEARS!!?!!

I also saw the piece of toast with jesus' face in it!

my favorite Catholic mom story is the one about my bandmates' mom who, upon seeing the pope on television, scrambled for her camera and TOOK A PHOTO OF THE TV.

Point out that all the money spent on a Catholic wedding goes to cash settlements for child abuse cases. (Not strictly true.)

Woah. That's intense.

Since my wife tends to shut down completely under stress, I'll probably wind up being the nervous mom for my daughter. If kiddo and I were to co-organize the event, it would probably wind up being a 2-minute ceremony with everyone in Dr. Who costumes, followed by an 8-hour foodies' geek-out reception.

I don't know. I don't think mothers ever give up.

My mother has always been happy to let me go about my business, probably because she's so happy that I'm not doing hard time like my brother. I guess it's different for sons than for daughters.

yeah I think my mom was just super-excited that I was getting married, period. my wife's mom was probably likewise relieved/excited that her daughter's love-life didn't turn out like her own (pregnant and married to a mentally unstable coke-dealing emigre from Hungary at the age of 17)

So the moral of this story is really KEEP EXPECTATIONS LOW, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

If kiddo and I were to co-organize the event, it would probably wind up being a 2-minute ceremony with everyone in Dr. Who costumes, followed by an 8-hour foodies' geek-out reception.

I can come to this, right?

wedding performed by K-9 hopefully

I bet we could get him!

Wait, she's not even seeing anyone yet. Rock, why isn't she seeing anyone? She's not getting any younger.

Oh god, now I'm doing it.

hahaha

Yes, you can come to this. In fact, she'll probably want to have it in Ireland.

time to pass the church donation plate

I just want to say good luck and reiterate that I think eloping was one of the best moves I ever made.

although honeymooning at a swingers' resort is right up there too.

So the moral of this story is really KEEP EXPECTATIONS LOW, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

Exactly this. I didn't date anyone for about a year and I'm quite sure my mother thought I was a lesbian... which for her would have been a horrible disaster. So when I started dating A., I think she was just relieved. ("Yay, my daughter is dating someone with a penis!" Although she would never put it that way.)

I dated this dude (WHO WAS ON THE PEOPLE'S COURT) for a long time. He was an ass. My mom should just be happy I'm not marrying him, and opting for someone who's most excellent, and someone they all really like.

I dated this dude (WHO WAS ON THE PEOPLE'S COURT)

You can't leave us hanging like that! What was the case, details details...

hahaha. Wow.

He was on after we broke up. He was suing his tenants, I believe.

WHO EVEN DOES THAT? I mean, are you just proving what a supreme asshole you are by suing someone ON NATIONAL TELEVISION? The asshat didn't even OWN a television!

dang I was hoping it was Judge Wapner

doug llewellyn?

Wow, blasts from the past.

Maybe you could get in touch with him and have him call your mother to remind her of what a twerp he is and how lucky she is you're not marrying him.

That is GENIUS.

OMG DOUG LLEWELLYN. HIS HAIR!

This was only a couple years ago, so I think he had that sassy lady as the judge.

I should just say asshat's name. That should be enough, really.

Just have him ask for your current number, cos he was thinking it would be good to get in touch, you know, catch up about old times, maybe borrow a few hundred dollars....

HAH. MOMS WOULD SHIT A BRICK!

My mother has always been happy to let me go about my business, probably because she's so happy that I'm not doing hard time like my brother. I guess it's different for sons than for daughters.

Inappropriate giggles, esp. at last line.

oh lordy. talked to the fams. how does one politely suggest to their own mother that they may need psychiatric help?

Don't suggest; just have her committed and she'll get the message. ;)

i wish it were that easy! she's now claiming she doesn't remember half of the big blowout conversation. this worries me.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:xtW4xttj2NF-oM:http://content.ytmnd.com/content/a/e/d/aed2c900a7e2002a0fb860a8192bd97b.jpg

Hopefully this one is clearer. The sentiment still rings true:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:B4U20IM57uVfiM:http://faroutshirts.com/images/ItsATrap-preview-1.png

Ah fuck it...

sounds like she feels ashamed or embarrassed of her own behavior and is attempting to save face? it sounds troubling, but people have done far stranger things to avoid the cognitive dissonance of realizing "i am being a complete bitch / asshole."

(not calling your mom a bitch, fwiw)

i just mean to say she probably did not enter a fugue state during the conversation.

don't worry. i've said that about her enough in the past week.

my big concern is that she was in a total state of hysterics (screaming, sobbing, etc.) when she made the grand monologue about how we should plan it our way, and now she doesn't remember? if she's lying, bad form. if she genuinely doesn't remember, i'm srsly concerned. i'm so used to her displays of hysterics, that i just got used to it. i'm realizing now that this isn't so normal.

That is disturbing, Molly. Was your father (or anyone else) around for the conversation/hysterics?

Oh yeah. He was. I think he's afraid of her. Who can blame him?

Blurgh. As of right now, it looks like it's happening down here. There were some other shitty conditions last night put on the whole thing, and it was enough for me to officially say "fuck it."

On the plus side, my friends who do this great rockabilly/country radio show here have volunteered to DJ the reception, so this is superb. I'm actually excited about it now, so this is a good thing.

Amen.

Oh, that sounds like you will have a ton of fun and be a lot less stressed out!

As for your mother... I hope your Dad can handle her. You shouldn't have to worry about that right now.

i was gonna suggest that you get married at center ice between periods of a sabres-preds game, but the sabres don't come to nashville this year ;_;

On the plus side, my friends who do this great rockabilly/country radio show here have volunteered to DJ the reception, so this is superb. I'm actually excited about it now, so this is a good thing.

Sounds wonderful! :-D

Thanks, all! mookie, wouldn't that be awesome if Sabretooth could rappel down from the ceiling and then officiate? Oh! If only!

UPDATE: Moms has seen the light.

On the phone last night (in an extremely civil conversation, btw), she actually asked, "Molly, what do you want?"

HOORAY.

WEDDING AND DANCEPARTYRECEPTION IN NASHVEGAS.
LATER DATE RECEPTION FOR THE PEEPS IN B-LO AT THE FAMS' HOUSE.

YAY.

Now, what to serve at whatever hall we get?

BBQ?
Meat and 3?
or Puerto Rican food?

moms be seeing the light!

That's awesome!

Friends of mine served Brazilian food and it was TOTALLY GREAT. So I vote Puerto Rican.

I want Puerto Rican too. A lot of the folks at the wedding will be FROM nashville, so meat and 3 and bbq won't be a big deal.

ROAST PORK Y TOSTONES FOR EVERYONE!

That sounds really fun and a bit different than the usual wedding fare.

Peurto Rican & BBQ!

Great news. Watch out for twisting and convenient memory loss like above (sorry, great news but I just would be a bit cautious but that's only me and I worry about everything so just ignore me. YAY!).

Yeah, PR food sounds fun.

Also, the PR restaurant here is called, "Los Happy Bellys."

HOW CAN WE NOT HAVE THEM CATER?

With a name like that molly you're just going to have to!

kv, yeah. I set some ground rules before the conversation even started by saying, "If either of us gets too worked up, we need to just end the conversation."

Also, it seems to me (and the counselor I talked to yesterday), that it's very possible she gets worked up into a fugue, and forgets. It's more common than one would think, apparently.

Hooray! Happiness! :-)

HAPPY BELLIES INDEED

Isn't there a place called Los Happy Wallets? </obvious> ;-)

How much do kegs of beer cost?

Happy Wallets all around!

i want to know how mom changed her mind. did a friend talk her around? did she cave? what?

i think she talked to friends, and i'm really hoping my dad helped calm her down. better late than never, dad!

she also asked me to apologize to mr. pike for her behavior, so maybe her own sense of decency kicked in too.

So glad to hear it, molly. Sounds like it will be a kick ass wedding!

hallelujah and fingers crossed for you!

my mother is breathing down my neck and telling me we need to go register.

i do not know how to answer questions about what color linens i would like!

i do not know what kind of shower i would like (theme, kitchen, etc.)!

this is frightening. i am frightened.

also, i just found out you can legally marry your cousin in tennessee.

weird.

first cousin or further off?

first cousin!

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/51168542.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DViewImages%26k%3D2%26d%3D17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CEB99A942AACF7CC2CA40A659CEC4C8CB6

Oh dear.

I am so overwhelmed by the industrializing/commercializing of weddings. Not to mention grossed out. If you need stuff to make your lives better, tho, then I guess register for it! Like bedding, kitchen utensils, a set of dishes that didn't come from Target, etc. Otherwise I dunno...choose a charity and ask people to donate? An animal shelter or a literacy program or SOMEthing?

I mean I think it's considered "okay" manners to let people know that cash would be more useful than a gift...esp if the cash is going to something specific that you can cite, like your honeymoon or saving to buy a home or something. I was raised to find any mention of money kind of horrifying, though, so I'm not sure I could do it. Not to mention at least one of the mothers might keel over....?

My mom said letting people know we wanted cash was an absolute no. My wife's Israeli family is totally the opposite - apparently there you're more-or-less expected to bring money. Which makes at least equally as much sense as buying dishes from a registry and a LOT more sense than buying a decorative pitcher. (Thanks, parents' friends who I don't know! This is really helping us start out in life!)

Apparently, you can marry your cousin in NY too.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm

xpost Laurel, yeah. The themed shit makes me want to barf. But, I am in dire need of nice things (hello, stainless steel cookset!). I just don't know how to answer questions about color schemes and shit.

My cousin is getting married (NOT TO ME) and his fiancee has EVERTHING sorted already, and they're getting married in August. She has even told me the color details of her living room.

I think I'm bad at this!

Envelopes of cash can be classy, just pretend you're in Goodfellas.

I would not turn down whatever family and friends are kind enough to give us. Cash would be good. We'd like to buy a house eventually, but we'll probably wait until the housing market tanks entirely.

Blah. What color towels do I want? I have no idea!

I think cash is pretty acceptable. Wedding I went to last year there was no mention of gifts at all I mentioned it to my friend, the groom and he so that they didn't really want gifts for the sake of getting a whole load of homewares they already had but they had an amazon wish list with some art books they wanted for anyone who felt they had to give something. Which was nice.

I think the mention of registries is just going in the shower invitation. I think. Actual wedding invitation may not say anything. If people want to know where we're registered, they can ask, but I'm not going to say, "YOU MUST BUY ME THIS BRIGHT RED KITCHEN AID ELECTRIC MIXER."

If you don't know what colors you want, pick white or natural and point people to 100% cotton/linen. You can dye it later, or pair it with colorful stuff.

Get beige everything. It will most likely match with whatever you are moving into and, if you save the receipts, you can exchange them for an equivalent thing in a better color if you survey your new surroundings and say "oh no THIS WILL NOT DO".

The details about what you are registering for aren't nearly as important as getting a fuckload of things on there that you could conceivably return for store credit so you can shop at your leisure later.

I think we wound up putting out the registry word through the parents. We made it just big enough to avoid even more pointless ceramic gifts (and get a few things we'd probably never buy like all-clad pans), but small enough that some folks would still give us cash.

Jaq, that's a super idea! I even have dye!

Srsly, that is a really good idea. I was looking at the Macy's catalog online and became totally overwhelmed.

xpost - Yes, yes yes! This is the advice I needed. My mom is freaking out in the most excited way possible. She's calling me tonight, so I need to be mentally prepared and have answers to her questions.

On the plus side, wedding shower is going to be at a BREWERY (the same place we were originally going to have the wedding).

Your mother thinks you need to register for a complete kitchen re-make? Oh golly. Way, way too much. And you're right -- wouldn't you rather buy your OWN tea towels when you see ones you really like in a store at some random time?? If a few family members chipped in for the KitchenAid, maybe you could even afford some extra dishcloths down the road....

This is not Barb's wedding This is not Barb's wedding This is not Barb's wedding and so on

Actually, she's been pretty good about all of it. The thing is she gets SO EXCITED and it's hard to calm her down. Also, she talks about it ad nauseum.

She talks about it more than I do. That being said, I'm not as gung-ho in the planning process as she is. I'm not sure if that's a poor reflection of myself.

Kekeke

register for yarn and roving ;)

OMG YES.

or maybe a new spinning wheel!

"Wanted: butter churn"

YES PLZ

ned! butter churning would be A+. i also want to learn how to make cheese! (for realz)

MOLLY TELL THEM TO BUY YOU GOATS. Then see who would rather send a check.

Even if you don't want or need gifts, people will still be buying you stuff anyway. Have a wishlist/gift registry somewhere, seriously, or you will have 8 squillion vases and no things you'd actually (we never lived together before we were married and I had always been a tenant in flats with people who owned stuff so had pretty much nothing to start with in our first house and thought it was pretty great that friends wanted to buy us things like an ironing board).

We got some cash/cheques - just make sure you write a thank-you note telling them you spent it on something specific ("we used it to buy a casserole dish that we had been looking at") rather than telling then it went in a big fund of drinking/holidays/rent/whatever. Several people also got us vouchers for the shops we'd placed the registry with which was good too for the things we'd have liked but which no-one bought us.

ailsa, excellent advice. thank you!

we are going to do a registry at macy's and perhaps target. or linens'n'things. i'm not sure. i've heard tales of people who registered at target and got a bunch of junk, which wasn't on their list.

In my experience, some people will still give you random junk that wasn't on your list, but registering really does cut down on that. It feels weird, but it helps your guests a lot, and it saves you from having things that you dislike but feel compelled to keep so as to not hurt someone's feelings.

i just had a conversation with my neurologist (she's around my age) and she told me of the glory of returning things to get what you really want. and then we talked about migraines.

wow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wrlEWQ9eIs

http://weddings.theknot.com/pwp/pwp2/view/MemberPage.aspx?coupleid=8890821830833235&pid=3671975