Are you enlightened?

wow, i never got that prize. kids these days have it all.

I'm enlightened in some ways, unenlightened in others.

here's a faq from '98
http://www.mind-gear.com/faq.htm#def

they talk about it at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mind-l/

there's some wishy washy stuff in there but I've also heard of very weird people talking about exotic states of consciousness using interisting styles of enunciation
:-)

Excerpts from "Zen Without Zen Masters"
Camden Benares
Copyright 1977 by Camden Benares
Falcon Press

From I. Guides and Lovable Fools

Solitary System

There are many individuals who are liberated or who appear
to be so. Some of them seek disciples because they have not
heeded Nietzsche, who said, "What? You seek followers? You
would multiply yourself by ten, by a hundred, by a thousand?
Seek zeroes!" Remember this and know that any system of
liberation may work once, for one individual.

Masters And Teachers

When asked about masters and teachers, Ho Chi Zen always had
this to say: "The Old Fox can learn more from the young Fool
than the Young Fool can ever hope to learn from the old
fox."

Mal's Truth

When an interviewer asked Mal if his teaching was serious or
humorous, Mal replied, "Sometimes I take humor seriously and
sometimes I take seriousness humorously. Either way it is
irrelevant."

The interviewer responded by proposing that Mal was crazy.
Mal grinned and said, "Indeed! But don't reject these
teachings just because I am crazy. I am crazy because they
are true."

Ben and The Fanatic

In his teachings, Ben stressed that Zen was his path because
it allowed him to be himself. All the other routes that
allegedly lead to cosmic consciousness seemed to put him in
conflict with his own nature. He advised all seekers to
examine carefully what each system asked of the potential
initiate, keeping in mind three rules:

1. What you are required to believe is what the system
cannot prove.

2. Anything that you are asked to keep secret is of more
value to the teacher than to the student.

3. Any practice that is forbidden offers something that the
system cannot successfully replace with an alternative.

One listener asked, "Don't you believe that giving up the
pleasures of the senses will produce a different
consciousness?"

"My personal experience," Ben replied,"was that it produced
the consciousness of fanaticism."

Audience Response

Ben was once asked how he expected anyone to take some of
his teachings seriously when they provoked so much laughter
from his listeners. he replied, "Laughter is the only
genuine form of applause."

A Common Disease

By surrounding himself with true believers, Waldo fell into
the trap of taking himself too seriously. This led to
unhappiness and ill health. When he asked Ralph, one of the
few who had penetrated his multilevel cover stories, what he
thought the problem was, Ralph replied, "You're suffering
from hardening of the orthodoxies."

Anyway, after playing with it for a few days and really giving it a shot, I decided I prefer regular meditation. This particular mind machine seems to put you in a somewhat uncomfortable trance and it's annoying to not be able to see when you want to, especially if you happen to enjoy open-eye meditation, like the "shamballah warrior"-styled meditation I finally settled on after 3 or 4 years of trying different techniques.

In fact, from my experience, I almost wonder if mind machines produce dangerously close results to the TM™ style of meditation, which has left several people with a "spacing out" brain disorder.

Definitely true. The vibration of the skull affects the brain waves.

The best book for anyone who wants to verify quickly that meditation can do very interesting things is "Undoing Yourself With Energized Mediation And Other Devices". I bought that after about 2 years of regular meditation and, after trying the first exercise, I went into a state that I'd never been in before (and it wasn't Utah). It's full of annoying hippyish RAWilson stuff, but if you skip right to the exercises, they work almost frighteningly well. Actually, "frightening" might be the exactly proper term because I went back to my old routine fairly quickly.

Many times. I used to love it. Nowadays I find it a bit talky, a bit pretentious. And I still don't get the bit about him turning into a simian something or other and eating a lamb and waking up naked in the zoo. Is that supposed to be funny? Because it's hilarious to me, but 'hilarious' is not what the movie is finally going for, obviously. So either it's incredibly badly executed drama, or very poorly placed comedy.

I don't think of meditation as religious. Out of the 8 Jhanas, I'm fairly positive I've gone to some of the higher states quite a few times, but lately I just meditate to start the day for about 20 minutes, almost as simple maintenance, like eating and I do it because I enjoy it. I guess it's similar to Howard Stern's routine (and he's not religious), except that he does TM, which is something I'm not interested in at all.

"Religious" is a weird word (kind of like the word "love"). I am religious in a certain sense about life, but it has nothing to do with a religion. It's like when somebody says they "work out religiously".

TM causes brain damage?!! Tell us more!!!

from http://minet.org/TM-EX/

"...What
we do have in common, is our desire to assist those leaving the movement;
to make the public aware of the fraud within the movement; and
the physical and psychological harm, that has resulted for many, from
the practices of the TM Program. "

from http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/t/tm/dissenter.htm

"HARMFUL EFFECTS: Studies have found TM results in tiredness, anxiety, depression, regression, suicidal tendencies, headaches, sleeping difficulties, neck pain and involuntary twitching for many. The German government studies found that the teachers of TM were not qualified to deal with the problems associated with its practice.

WARNINGS: Warnings have been issued about the dangers of TM by the German government, the Vatican, the Cult Awareness Network, the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults, the Interfaith Coalition of Concern about Cults and various professional organizations."

I love meditation. In Utero... just kidding.

I've read about Buddhism. I've also read about Taoism, Confucianism, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism.

I'm still a Christian. :)

I'm still a Christian. :)

Ah, but have you ever read about Christianity? (Just kidding). There are still more choices, btw, but to the point: are you enlightened?

No.

I know that things are getting tougher
When you cant get top off from the bottom of the barrel
Wide open road of my future now...
Its looking fucking narrow
All I know is that I dont know
All I know is that I dont know nothing
All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
We get told to decide
Just like as if im not gonna change my mind
All I know is that I dont know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
Whatcha gonna do with yourself
Boy better make up your mind
Whatcha gonna do with yourself boy
You're running out of time
This time I got it all figured out
All I know is that I dont know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I do not know nothing
And thats fine

sorry heh

I'm still following the tracks, but so far I've only seen the ox's tail sticking out of a bush. It had dingleberries on it.

Latebloomer - the album that's on made my top 15 on that stupid meme that's going around. I still love it after all this time.

Monday nothing, Tuesday nothing, Wednesday and Thursday nothing, Friday for a change, a little more nothing, Saturday once more nothing.
Sunday nothing, Monday nothing, Tuesday and Wednesday, nothing, Thursday for a change, a little more nothing, Friday once more nothing.
Montik gornisht, dinstik gornisht, mitvokh un donershtik gornisht, fraytik for a novehneh, gornisht gigeleh, Shabbos vider gornisht.
Lunes nada, martes nada, miercoles y jueves nada, viernes por cambio un poco mas nada, sabado otra vez nada.
Na na nana, na na nana ...
Oh, Village Voice nothing, New Yorker nothing, sing out in folk ways nothing. Harry Smith and Allen Ginsberg, nothing nothing nothing.
Poetry nothing, music nothing, thinking and dancing nothing. The world’s great books, a great set of nothing. Haughty and foddy, nothing.
Fucking nothing, sucking nothing, flesh and sex nothing. Church and Times Square, all a lot of nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing!
Stevenson nothing, Humphrey nothing, Averell Harriman nothing. John Stuart Mill nill-nill, Franklin Delano Nothing.
Carlos Marx nothing, Engels nothing, Bakunin Kropotkin — nyuthing! Leon Trotsky, lots of nothing. Stalin less than nothing!
Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, a whole lot of, a whole lot of nothing. Nothing, lots and lots of nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.
Not a goddamn thing.
Nothing.

you can spell "enlightened" without "lighten"

can't, hawww

bedtime

http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2007/10/lolcat-funny-picture-found-pills-ate-eat.jpg

Harry Smith and Allen Ginsberg, nothing nothing nothing.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/bobbysixer/clowningaround.gif

The Holy Fools

Is enlightenment in Zen Buddhism meant to be a permanent state that is reached?

If so, riddle me the koan:

Show me the enlightenment of the senile Zen Master?

[I suppose the answer is something like: Nansen smiled and left the room with his slippers on his head]

Is enlightenment in Zen Buddhism meant to be a permanent state that is reached?

Not in the Soto Zen tradition at least. If you're interested, my teacher had the following to say on the subject. Forgive me for the tl;dr.

Enlightenment is "sudden" because we are already Buddha, are already complete. However, it may take time for us to gradually realize this fact in our lives. We must realize this, and make it real, moment by moment in our lives.

Greed, anger and ignorance obscure the peace and perfection of our lives, so we must constantly make effort to wipe each away. But the best means to "wipe each away", is through sudden on-the-spot tastes of contentment, peace and wisdom (we see that there is no dust in need of cleaning, even as we wipe the dust). And we can never fully "wipe each away", not so long as we are human beings with these often greedy, angry and ignorant human bodies and minds. Thus, we do not extinguish "greed anger and ignorance", so much as see through them, learn not to be trapped by them, learn to see life in other ways free of "greed anger and ignorance". THE ENDLESS WIPING (and NOT WIPING) --IS-- THE PERFECT CLEANING ACHIEVED.

Enlightenment is not a single stopping place (although, yes, in one of its many facets, it is a taste in which all things "stop"), but a freedom to live moment by ever changing moment in this life. More than peace and stillness, it is the ability to taste peace and stillness amid and as the ever changing turmoil and movement (often chaos) that is this world.

If I understand correctly in some traditions one becomes and remains enlightened.

aaaaaaand hoos takes over another thread with zen bs

sry dudes i'll dip

Hoos - you're beginning to see why the old Zen people went around saying the 'Cyprus Tree in the Court Yard' and playfully whacking people....it breaks up the explanations.

Ahsrams are gross places full of coersion and sexual manipulation, Buddhism as practiced in the west is largely undone by a fascistic power structure (see frauds like alcoholic rapist Chögyam Trungpa). Stay unenlightened. Trust yourself.

Oh good you're here

Interesting discussion is largely undone by misinformed ideologues who get their information about the world from libertarian blogs, iirc. But yeah welcome!!!!

Did you mean: coercion

Buddhism as practiced in the west is largely undone by a fascistic power structure

I don't think this is anything unique to the West. What you prerogatively refer to as fascism is a part of traditional Buddhism as well. In fact I don't know of any monastic order, in any religion, that does not involve authoritarian micro-management of the lives of the disciples.

just wanna say A+ display name, Heave

Mr Hoos I support any and all of yr zen bsing

http://inalucila.com/portfolio/design/enlight_cover.jpg

http://www.wie.org/uimages/covers/j41-350.jpg

ILX: Are you entitled?

Frank Herbert was right, fear really is the mind-killer.

This question feels relevant again for the AI/Chat GPT era…. For anyone thinking they are enlightened, they should ask themselves: Out of all the possibilities available, why am I choosing to believe in a role where I alone am the enlightened one dispensing wisdom, whilst everyone else is in ignorance? What other psychological motivations could be going on here for me?

who said "alone"

im not certain ive ever seen an espousal of enlightenment that builds in "relative to everyone else"

in practice? sure, most people are like this as soon as they think they know anything at all, but its not to my mind what enlightenment "means"

Yes, it's not really something I can see anyone saying with a straight face, even to themselves.

i figured Bob was referring to the red pilled/conspiracist mentality more than any kind of buddhist thing

FROM CHAT GPT :

LICKABETH (shaking a glowing frog bible):
So dial now.
Tap into the chaos.
Feel your programming and call it HOLY.

TOGETHER (with insane grins):
📞 1-800-MEANING
"We can’t fix you.
But we can praise what’s broken."

thats right