Go to Ireland! Drink in pubs! Do not smoke!

That would make such a great Saturday morning cartoon, though.

The girlfriend's going to Ireland next June, and I no longer regret not going with her.

Reminds me of the first time I smoked weed in my room. My mom knocked and asked: "You're not smoking marijuana, are you?" - "Yes, how did you know?" - "I remember the smell from uni." - "Wild parties?" - "Lecture rooms."

Why am I being dragged into this discussion unwillingly, Ned? Bloomberg will get his.

I think it would be great being able to come home from pubs without sore eyes and clothes that stink of other people's smoke.

my fear is though that this great new law will not be adequately enforced by our brave constabulary.

Only advantage I can see is it might be good for lame attempts to pull. I wish someone would kill Michael McDowell.

Also maybe the clothes smelling aspect of it, is to do with garments that you don't wash all of the time, maybe coats for example.

It's now a finable offense to be drunk, at the discretion of the Garda
involved, I don't hate the police but do you honestly believe they are a just enough organisation not to make this law a total fucking disaster.

Of course drinking won't be banned in pubs but Ireland already has ludicrously strict and archaic licensing laws and this is just more of the same.

Everyone's suddenly mighty concerned about their health despite the fact they're probably drinking till they can't see every week anyway.

the lobbying by the vinters' association against the ban is really picking up steam but it will be interesting to see who's funding it now that they have to declare donations above 127euro (or thereabouts). despite their claims that it'll bring the four horsemen of the apocalypse on the country all opinion polls show that the vast majority of people here are in favour of the ban.

you really need to practise your decadence.

I do not understand this post.

Someone said before that cig smoke keeps the smell of stale beer and bodies from manifesting in bars. In any case I don't mind others' smoke in bars but hate smoking in restaurants.

One should be allowed to smoke while having a drink, particularly in a country where every occasion involves alcohol/bars/pubs. If this means separate rooms/bars have to be provided then fair enough. Also of course people who don't smoke are going to support such strong legislation cos it has no negative effect on their lives whatsoever, but it's not as though they were crying out for it before it was proposed.

but driving does more good than bad for people on the whole - and we are dependent on it. smoking is just a self-indulgent vice that contributes nothing of real beneficial worth to the world, does it? (i'm playing devil's advocate a little here rather than condemning smokers outright - i am not rigorously anti-smoking)

Smokers, because of their habit, pay farfarfar more in tax than non-smokers do. Governments make nearly as much money from cigarette smokers as Philip Morris.

The real reason for all the no-smoking initiatives is not that gov't is anti-smoking, it's that insurance on non-smoking premises is cheaper for employers.

I think it's a shame that more keen-eyed entrepreneurs (or the council, or somebody) haven't set up smoke-free bars and pubs, such that people did have more choice about whether to socialise (or work) in smoky environments.

The problem is that the EVERYTHING IS ORGANISED FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF SMOKERS argument actually holds some water at them moment. Banning smoking in all licensed premises seems like going too far in the other direction to me. The problem being that (health and safety at work aside) the arguments tend to boil down to MAKE THINGS MORE LIKE I WANT THEM TO BE vs I WANT THEM TO BE AS THEY ARE which is not very interesting or productive. If there was a bit more choice perhaps both sides would shut up for a bit.

here pub owners are all lobbying very strongly against the proposed legislation, while pub workers and their unions are supporting it.

There was a surge in business in Jersey cities nearest NYC transportation during the summer--Jersey has no smoking ban as of yet. Coincidence?

I'm not saying whether or not people should smoke etc etc but I'm saying that from a staff point of view, they've all come out regretting this, at least here. So the whole pro-staff argument is nonsense. They've chosen a career with a known occupational hazard and now they're getting less money, again at least here because of the five nonsmokers who totally cannot abide smoke who show up in a bar any given night.

Haha I always wondered what exactly people who argue this so vehemently think are going on to their bodies when they down copious amounts of alcohol anyway--Mark C, please enlighten me. Do you think alcohol is a healthy substance? ;)

(xpost)

So then about two months after these places all finished their work, Pataki swoops in and institutes a state-wide ban which totally obliterates all the loopholes and leeway the NYC ban had allowed, being as apparently the NYC goons had at least some dim, dim inkling of how nightlife works, unlike Pataki.

As an additional note, all of the bans started being instituted like practically two days after they raised the taxes on cigarettes to $4 A PACK--I mean jesus, they should be making all establishments smoking, not discouraging the practice.

* The obv. downside to this secret room is that if NO ONE but smokers were allowed in this room and it was completely sealed off, it obv. also becomes the INSANE COKE PARTY ROOM, a lot my friends were actually all looking forward to testing that theory.

Clearly you've never been drinking with Ally.

then on other nights i cd don freshly washed clothes and go out with mark c and tell him how much everyone at the smokers' bar was secretly not really enjoying themselves

What we've been talking about is a specific instance. It's not the end of the world for smokers and non-smokers alike, and it's not like I avoid pubs because of the fact they let in smokers. BUT it's antisocial in an immediate and obvious way which can be regulated.

Truly horrible, though, are smoking carriages on trains.

smoking suXoRz hypothecation r00ls u r all faghags DO YOU SEE!!??

If you don't want to breathe in other people's smoke, don't work in a pub. This would seem like plain common sense. It's not like there aren't hundreds of casual jobs in non-smoking workplaces.

I'd rather be Nate Dogg than Warren G, can you switch up who is doing the regulating in that verse, Mark?

there are a few things i disagree with in this. firstly just because some types of work have increased risks associated with them doesn't mean that attempts shouldn't be made to protect people working in those industries. recently in ireland there's been swaths of legislation brought in to protect those working in the construction industry and the death-rate there is declining. surely this sort of legislation can only be a good thing, people shouldn't have to leave their jobs to protect their health.

the other thing is that the system by which bar staff make there money in ireland is totally different than that in new york. bar staff are never tipped here, their full wages are paid by their employer. i've read in several reputable sources that the new york dept of labor figures show a slight increase in the numbers employed in bars and restaurants there over this time a year ago (but their site is so cumbersome that i've just given up on trying to find the figures there) which would suggest good news for irish bar staff.

Haha this explains the whole tipping/not-tipping conundrum causing massive rows between US and UK ILXors, I never really paid enough attention to note that the barstaff there are paid properly.

However, I do believe people shouldn't take jobs that they know have certain health risks and then sit around bitching about it. As noted previously, it's not that much harder to get a job in a non-smoking establishment (ex. in NYC instead of being a bar waitress go work at a regular restaurant, wtf?)

So even if the popularity of bars goes up post-ban, any advantage is likely to be offset by an increase in the desirability of working in the bar (increased supply of available labour => lower wages, it seems).

so do you reckon that the employers of people who work in offices have no obligation to provide ergonomic workstations as rsi is a known health risk in office jobs. if you get it tough, just leave and find another job? i don't think people should have to leave their jobs to protect their health. also the damage their health has suffered may effect their ability to find other work.

I have consulted the Irish bar staff about this, and they're flabbergasted. However at this particular pub the smokers go outside because you can't smoke spliffs in the pub.

I think his idea is OK and the 'danger' aspect is amusing.

It is striking to notice that Mark C and the Dirty Vicar... *agree* on this issue.

I think going to see a show versus just being out drinking are highly different events, as well. Of course everyone gets over it, what else is anyone meant to do? Bars let people smoke in them anyway, still; I can think of at least three recent examples of this.

I am well aware that standing next to a bottle of booze isn't going to kill anyone. However, I've known quite a few more people who've died being mowed over by drunks in their cars than people who have died because I smoked a cigarette within ten feet of them. That's my only point with this--everyone's quite worried about the second-hand effects of smoking but the potential second-hand effects of drinking are far more obvious and immediate, so let's ban everything ever!

As previously noted, I like standing outside and getting the break from being inside with a pile of people so it's not really anything I actively care about. I'm more bothered by the strange delusions apparent in the idea that giving people any choice whatsoever is some kind of inherenty evil thing.

so do you reckon that the employers of people who work in offices have no obligation to provide ergonomic workstations as rsi is a known health risk in office jobs.

Not really. Sorry. I'm a bitch like that. Employers gotta make cash too.

not exactly a wide sample.

we probably won't agree on this then. i don't think employers are entitled to damage their employees' health in the name of profit. workers and the state need to organise and legislate to ensure that this doesn't happen, because companies will try to get away with anything they can to make money.

Theoretically we've set up a system where most bars are non-smoking but a small number of smoking licenses are allowed for those who really want to smoke inside while having a drink (with the assumption that the staff will be informed that this is a smoking establishment when applying for a job). You're objecting to this system on the grounds that a non-smoker might decide that s/he wants to work in this particular specialist smoking establishment and objects to the smokiness?

you have to see it within the context of irish society

at the moment,minister michael mc dowell is on a puritanical mission to prevent all fun ever-from monday,happy hours and drinks promotions are banned,all licensed premises must close at half two with no music for the last half hour (this includes nightclubs)

this is due to a perceived problem the nation has with drinking

i agree that this is a problem,but mc dowell is trying to clean up the nation's image through measures such as the ones above,without adressing the basic issue:-that all the pubs close at the same time (and nightclubs as well now)in a country that loves to drink
the pubs close early,so people end up drinking loads just before closing time
then they are all kicked out into the street to drunkenly look for the same taxis,queue in the same chippers,etc

the practical upshot of this is that the streets of dublin are absolutely disgusting at night,full of drunken assholes fighting...

now the main thing that the minister should do,in my opinion,is insist that all police are issued with the directive that their main priority is to protect their citizens from immediate danger - ie wade in and prevent fights rather than stand around the streets hassling people who look like they might have a bit of hash on them or whistling at girls...
until this issue is addressed,all other measures should take a back seat

so now a bad situation will become even worse,with the new licensing laws causing more fights and the new smoking laws meaning there will be even less police bothering to do anything about it

seriously,the level of violence in dublin at night is fucking sickening,worse than anywhere else i've ever been,and something needs to be done,these new laws will only make things worse

i also think that you should be allowed smoke in pubs because it'll be so much hassle otherwise,for example the friend i go to the pub with most frequently smokes and i don't,so it will be really annoying going for a few pints-do i get up and go outside with her every time she has a smoke?
if so do we have to bring all our stuff with us,losing our seats,or do we risk having our bags stolen by leaving them there?etcetc

It's been statewide in California for years and still in place.

and if they give up smoking they can go on the dole, because Ronan and his mates want to be able to smoke while they have a drink outside the home.

look, this isn't fascism, no one is telling smokers that they can't smoke - at home, or on the streets, say - but the regulation is allowing for the rest of us who don't smoke to be able to enjoy a drink in a pub without some stinky fucker ruining it for us.

Is this really what your argument is reduced to?

However I like my mates more than I hate the smoke so I guess I gotta take the rough with the smooth, and to be fair smokers will often move away if the smoke is making me have a fit or something.

Like Ronan I fail to see what is wrong with having designated smoking and non-smoking pubs. Surely a better system than banning it outright.

I suspect that everyone will ignore it completely, like they do in Paris where there's a ban in place despite every French person in the world smoking like a chimney.

Is this really what your argument is reduced to?

you are the one who said that smokers could be employed to work in smoker pubs.

?? Sounds like lawmakers have not given sufficient thought to the nursing home attendants currently on the dole as a result of their smoke intolerance.

For christ's sake just admit you want to decide that other people shouldn't smoke and be done with it. I didn't see anyone complaining about the construction industry safety conditions when that was an issue. A tiny bit of self righteousness? I think so.

xpost

attitudes like yours and Ronan's make me want to see all smokers rounded up and euthanased.

When have I not?

if smoking's so horrible why not stand up and say "this is horrible stuff that kills millions and it ought to be banned from pubs.

tracer, this may have happened already, hence the banning :)

why are you trying to save us all so much then!!!

still waiting for a decent argument for banning them from ALL pubs.

I read this as 'outright circumcision' and for a moment thought Tracer was overegging his rhetoric.

I always follow your spiritual lead on these matters.

R5 this am were broadcasting live from the scene of the ban.

According to the nine o'clock news there have been NO INCIDENTS so far. Johnny Fox's has a *smoking bus* (pun merchants beware) outside the pub. I am moving to Glencullen.

The contract runs for 15 years at a time.

The smoking ban is a load of shite. As I've been saying for months, it's been illegal to smoke on the buses in Ireland for nearly fifteen years now and people still do it. You're not supposed to smoke at the baggage carousels in Dublin airport, but everyone still does, and you're not supposed to smoke hash in public places, but lots of people do that too. I have few hopes for the ban's success, although I would like to see it work.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/upload/300304fsmokefree_lg.jpg

from the rome airport, early this year. When we went in late 2000, I think the customs guy was smoking.

Is that how they make em?

This is at least almost true.

Perhaps it is just sunny in my head.

I haven't been to a pub since the ban, but I must fix that.

Today I saw certain people from Dublin, for quite a while, though doubtless not long enough (for my liking). I don't think they were worried about the ban.

They are not after ... "bringing" back any House of Love CDs to Erin, alas. It's crowded, over there. I hope that some kindhearted customs official at the airport can violently relieve them of their... Airport Girl 45s. That really would be taking the boxty, cluttering up the place with... those.

In London it was sunny, rainy, sunny, rainy, and now (is) sunny again.

I know that there are many other spellings. Yes, I have seen them.

'Dinnshenchas Etymology' on the www just gets me stuff about how the dinnshenchas tell us stuff about etymology. I want to know about the derivation of the word, ie: which bit of it means 'lore' and which bit 'place' / 'place names'?

(And which means 'of'? No.)

and many others.

I am surprised at your momentary, no doubt oneoff, lapse in erudition.

I see (where) Declan Kiberd has stopped posting to ilx.

Lore? Hm.

So, do you reckon 'Dinn' means 'place'?

I will admit that my buildingblock approach to etymology is crude, here.

The run.

http://img37.photobucket.com/albums/v115/nickdastoor/decorativetatatruck.jpg

I wish the run didn't seem as long and as daunting. What fool wants to live forever?

Perhaps we just won't care by then.

We're happy for you.

I'm not finding it that miserable. Toilet smells are nicer than smokey smells.

some pubs smell of things other than toilets. They are always things that sound very unpleasant, but are nicer than smoke.

Ireland -- too wealthy for pubs. (It's in the Washington Post, it must be true.)

Revive!

I'm probably going to be in Ireland late October/early November and will have a week free to run around.... suggestions?

i mean...the whole of ireland or have you any particular fixed items we can hang ideas off've

Legend has it, on the feast day of the saint (24th of July) pilgrims would crawl under the stone as a cure for arthritis. However the mythical tale also warned that the stone should not be approached by the unworthy as they risked getting stuck and trapped for their sins.

a lot of Irish holy relic tourist attractions seem to need you to do a risk assessment before approaching them!

in case you are interested that is St Declan's Stone, it's no Rock Of Cashel type draw by the sound of it but I might be tempted to see if it fixes knackered ankles as well as arthritis.

GO: to Clonmacnoise if you’re in my neck of the woods
EAT: a spice bag, fresh fish if you’re out wesht
DRINK: a pint of plain/red lemonade

But seriously, give us more detail!

GO: to the giants causeway and the bushmills tour if you're up north
EAT: irish stew imo, we do good comfort grub
DRINK: whiskey

GO: enjoy the eerie ambience of a Tuesday evening in Borris-in-Ossiry
EAT: a bag of curry chips
DRINK: guinness and/or murphy's stout

GO: to Tubbercurry
EAT: garlic cheese chips from Supermacs, preferably in a small town centre watching drunks fight
DRINK: A whole 3l bottle of Country Spring

mmmm Tubbercurry

ignore advice to go to borris, which gained several mentions in our "worst places in ireland" discussions of yore

We went to the Aran Islands last year and spent the day biking and hiking all over. Laid stone walls everywhere, not that many people, 5th century graveyards, neolithic stone forts!

Also highly recommend hiking in the Burren and Conemara.

Gregan's Castle Hotel is one of my favorite hotels ever. Peat fires, great food, beautiful setting, warm service.

i mean...the whole of ireland or have you any particular fixed items we can hang ideas off've

We don't really have a fixed itinerary at the moment except for getting off the plane in Dublin and then wandering around/hanging out for awhile before going over to Scotland. (the timing is such that we want to be in London for The Raincoats' 40th anniversary shows in mid-November)

thats still kinda vague!