how do you pronounce the name that is 'stephen'?

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― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

steeeeeeeee-ven

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

the same way you pronounce Steven.

― hstencil, Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, thanks a LOT.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

stee-vin

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

PH IS NEVER V EXCEPT IN THIS NAME?

you are all crazy.

some stephens may like to be called 'steven' but they are just kidding themselves.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

leave them alone you bully

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Step-hen. Ho. Err, ho.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, stee-vin not ven.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Hahaha. We do have our fun with Gillanders. He is losing it.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Poor RJG calls his brother 'Steefen' and he thought that was normal!

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

(his brother's name is spelled 'Barry').

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I think his family have been playing a cruel joke on him for the past 22 years.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, cos Stephanie's not pronounced Stevanie, is it? I have never thought about this until now. I think I'm with RJG, theoretically at least.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not pronounced 'Steefanie' either. That's not the point.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

ronan is right. I didn't mean to say that some stephens are kidding themselves. that was bad.

what I am saying is that dastoor and cook are cunts. this is only truth.

stefan=steh-fan?
steven=stee-ven?
stephen=stee-fen/stee-ven?
stephan=steh-fan?

I guess that I am really arguing that 'stephen' is DEFINITELY NOT ALWAYS 'stee-ven' and, in my experience, not even most commonly.

AND THANK YOU, AILSA.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

for trying to back me up.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I just meant Stephanie's from the same root as Stephen but pronounced totally differently.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Logic has no place here. Out, vile weed.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

stee-ven

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Shar-day

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

sin-KEV-itch

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

stee-vem

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

logic has no place here.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

... Who wants ginger snaps?

― Leee (Leee), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Steve Urkel would transform into Stephon (which is prononced stef-on)

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Get it right, its pronounced "Raymond Luxury-Yacht"!

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 28 August 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

How do you solve a problem like "Maria"?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 29 August 2003 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know.

_____________________________________________________________________

I say "PH is always F."

dastoor warns "you can't think of english as a consistent language!!"

I say "I should think of it as a completely consistent language [wrt this] except for one crazy deviancy??"

I ask ally "is your name [alasdair] pronounced w/ a D or a T like alastair and alistair?"

ally reveals "well, with a D but I don't mind" !!!!

he and dastoor begin to disagree about this and I let them.

nick brings up my use of 'disinterest', telling me that it is not, in fact, 'a lack of interest' but a state of objectivity or neutrality!

even though dictionaries have an actual definition that says 'a lack of interest'. he says this is because people have used it incorrectly for long enough.

I say "is disintegration not a lack of integration?"

dastoor says "you're thinking about english as a consistent language again!!" !!!

I say "PH as V and not F seems like TH as F or [crazily] V--laziness of part of the pronouncer."

ally says "yes, well, so what? that is how it is pronounced now."

these were not their only contradictions as an argueteam.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Mouse mice house hice?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

'disinterest': a state of objectivity or neutrality
or a lack of interest

i ask: are these not the same thing? if you are disinterested, you have no interests in (whatever), so you don't care one way or the other, hence you are neutral.

rjg is right, n. and ally, much like the english language, are full of contradiction

― minna (minna), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Dastoor's right, though. Look at it this way: with the exception of the newest additions, every word in the English language is a fair bit older than its spelling. The word comes first; the spelling comes later. You can't very effectively argue "it's spelled X, so it should be pronounced X"; that's very visibly not the way English works. It isn't always consistent in its inconsistencies: there are greater pronunciation shifts in the feminizing of Nicholas and Stephen to Nicole and Stephanie than in George to Georgia, for instance.

Stephen is probably the older spelling, since there's a Greek name Stephanos (I'm just assuming the English name derives from it) -- but you're focusing on the fact that it appears to be an exception in the use of "ph," when in fact it does follow the overall pattern of words retaining older spellings after pronunciation has shifted. (There are whole sets of synonyms or near-synonyms in English from dictionaries formalizing spellings for "two words" which were simply the same word pronounced with different regional accents.)

And come to think of it, offhand I can't think of many words other than "women" in which "o" is pronounced that way. Nor silent b's that don't follow m's, other than in "debt" (which is one of those near-synonyms; "debt" and "debit" both waltzed in, but we could've done with just one of em).

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

so?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

So what are you objecting to? Stephen as "Steven" is one of many instances of pronunciation not matching up to spelling. It's a common part of the language. It happens to involve a shift from "ph" to "v," which doesn't seem common, but there are other examples that seem to be orphans, too. You called it "one crazy deviancy" above, but it isn't: it's one of many.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Ga-vin.

― ac, Friday, 29 August 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

one crazy deviancy for PH as F, one etc. etc. for blah blah.

so, you're backing me up by saying it was F and is now V?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

If it derives from the Greek, it definitely was, yeah -- when it was Greek, if nothing else. No idea if it shifted to V before or after being used as an English name.

But -- okay, yeah, this looks like it's the only PH->V shift ... but we only have one O->I shift, too, and I assume you don't want to pronounce "women" to rhyme with "nomen." The letters involved aren't really important enough to make it unusual.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks for the back up re: PH as V anomaly.

'women' always made me angry as a small boy. etc.

this has sidetracked a little; it all began because dastoor and cook denied and made fun of my pronunciation. which is not right. their making fun of. not my pronunciation.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, +

dastoor can't have mocking my back-dated 'correct' pronunc. AND have his denying my up-dated 'disinterest'. OK.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Voila

― Leee (Leee), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, any making fun of warrants a punch, I won't argue with that :)

The disinterest one is tricky. There aren't actually good words in English to explain the very different ways people use the dis- prefix. I mean, look at "disagree": it's more than a simple lack of agreement. I don't agree with nickalicious that bagels with caramel sauce are tasty (I'm making up an example here) -- but I don't disagree with him, either, cause I've never had one. Disagree is the opposite of agree, not just the lack of it.

... had to answer work email in the other window and forgot where I was going with that. Eventual point was: I don't have a problem with your use of "disinterest," and don't agree with the idea that "new" or more recent usages of words are automatically incorrect.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Pretty much off the point, but related -- there is probably a connection between the "F" becoming a "V" and the short E becoming a long E. Those shifts are usually because of where the tongue and so on are in the mouth -- one shift practically determines the other. That's vague because I've never been able to "picture" that myself, so I'm regurgitating text here: I've got a mostly repaired speech impediment that makes it next to impossible for me to be aware of what's going on with my mouth to make me talk. But I'm pretty sure I've got that right.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:18 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks again.

yes, the best source for examples of changed or 'incorrect' pronunciations are the extreme cockneys [whom I do not hate].

TH as F or V and R as W or missed and no real T at all [the last is common w/ a lot of scots accents, too].

you try pronouncing like these and you can feel your tongue not touching teeth/palate...your tongue barely moves.

THURSDAY = fuh[w]z-day???

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

no real T at the end of words, I meant.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ask alice cooper.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd500/d595/d59581r1wit.jpgSteven
I hear my name. (Steven)
Is someone calling me ?
I hear my name. (Steven)

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Friday, 29 August 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Whatever, I am definitely going to be calling JtN 'Stephie' from now on...

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 29 August 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what about "stephin" then?

― Katja (blue), Friday, 29 August 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Stee-vun.

Innit.

― mei (mei), Friday, 29 August 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I love it when RJG can't admit he's wrong.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

: )

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i have to change my ilx name

― kephm, Friday, 29 August 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

car-smile

trou-sers

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 29 August 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

rjg isn't wrong though. Cf. "Stephen King" who pronounces his name "Stee-fen". Soft 'f'. More proof that Dastoor is insane, says I.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no doubt there are other people who choose to pronounce it 'Stee-fen'. The point is that RJG was under the impression that it was weird to pronounce it any other way, when in fact it's the norm to pronounce it the same as 'Steven'.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

this is the most fucking boring thread i have ever seen

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck you, stelfox.

dastoor, you and cook were the ones that reacted to my pronunciation and pronounced it 'crazy', claiming it was only ever pronounced with a V. I knew this to be TOTALLY WRONG and WE BEGAN.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

its not that bad daphen. no, actually it probably is

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

No, Nick, what I'm saying is that it IS pronounced "Stee-fen", but the distinction in the English language between the "f" sound and the soft "v" sound in the context of that word, it sounds basically identical. You'd have to really overemphasise the "f" sound to make it sound notably different to the common man. Ergo, none of us can really say which was is the normal pronunciation because I could be saying "Stee-fen" and you could say "Stee-ven" and there'd be no really massive difference in the way it is being said, so we'd be in conversation, thinking we were saying the same word, YET WE WOULDN'T BE!!

Do you see? RJG is right, it is correct to pronounce it with an "f" sound whether or not this is done--and that's the only way to debate it cos the "f" and the "v" sound almost identical in this particular word linguistically so we might as well just shoot ourselves (DO YOU SEE? V REPLACES F IN THIS IMMEDIATELY PRIOR WORD!!!) in the face if we're going to split hairs over that sort of nonsense. Who are you all, Tolkien? Blimey.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, it is pretty bad.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I break my posting ban for THIS, what in the hell.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Stephen is the plural of Steven as evidenced by the words "ourselves/ourself". Would someone actually say "ourself"? What would that mean?

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the day began with my usual feeling of mild ennui, but i have been sent plummetting into abyss of abject despair by the fact you people are even talking about this...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

WAIT WRONG WAY, Stephen is the singular, I'm sorry. :(

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

singular? plural? ally, i was with you right up until that point...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

IT IS ALWAYS PRONOUNCED AS A "V" UNLESS YOU ARE AN IDIOT... I DON'T KNOW WHY AND I DON'T CARE AND NOR SHOULD ANYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF COMMON SENSE!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

you probably think oswald pulled the trigger, too.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Dafe perhaps you need to ignore.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

dave's noisy obsession with the correct pronunciation of this name marks him out as quite an odd fellow IMO

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

OR A SOFT "F" THAT SOUNDS IDENTICAL TO A "V"... *SHAKES FIST IN FRUSTRATION, EYES BULGING LIKE MICHAEL DOUGLAS JUST BEFORE HE GOES COMPLETELY BLEEDING BERSERK IN FALLING DOWN"

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not an obsession... I DON'T CARE!!! why can't people accept one linguistic anomaly and be happy with it!?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I accept far too many as it is. this one will not stand.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Steve, it was merely a mentalist joke, don't even mind it, I have not had enough coffee...

It's not a linguistic anomaly, Dave, otherwise you wouldn't have the only famous person I could think of with a name "Stephen" who pronounces with a slight "f" instead of a hard "v"!

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

cook and dastoor, last night, saying "stee-fen hendry!! stee-fen!! haha!!" is it pronounced 'henry' or 'hendry', btw?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

*quietly walking off to blow up the nearest gas station*

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no idea what Ally's going on about. And I've never heard Stephen King pronounce it any way other than "Steve-in."

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it's my middle name.
it's pronounced 'STEE-ven' for me,
always has and will

now back to lurking,
like ally I'm quite surprised
I even posted

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

i am apalled that i posted here - i feel soiled

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, that's because you haven't been paying attention to the subtle linguistic differences between the two. Trust me, you take a bunch of linguistics classes for no reason and this would be your obsession too. I'm not saying that people are wrong to pronounce it "Steven", I mean really if you want to pronounce your own name "Miroslav" and it's actually spelt "Gareth" well that's your business isn't it? It's like me adding extra letters to my name when I shorten it, well I just like it that way and you all can eat me if you do not like to have many lettered names.

Though I'm not sure why Dave is so upset by it, I mean really he can pronounce it however he likes.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

from now on i shall pronounce stephen/steven as to rhyme with kevin or maybe devon

― gareth (gareth), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe he can't pronounce fs

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I make the distinction between Hen-ry and Hend-ry when pronouncing things. However, as I think I mentioned elsewhere, I don't even have a consistent pronunciation of my own name, so I doubt this opinion counts for much.

I'm really very glad I didn't go to the pub last night when it was suggested by Ally C, I feel my head may have exploded :)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going to pronounce "Gareth" as "Miroslav" from now on, is this ok G-Money?

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, that's because you haven't been paying attention to the subtle linguistic differences between the two.

Okay, but Ally, if it's shifted from a hard F to a soft F -- and if it comes from the Greek, it was a hard F -- then there's still a shift, so none of what was discussed above is any different except for how we refer to the most recent sound. So what are you getting at?

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I have just asked Stephen Hawking, Stephen Dorff, Stephen Byers, Stephen Frears, Stephen Dorrell, Stephen Sondheim and Stephen Gateley how they pronounce their names and they all confirm that RJG is a moron.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

But that depends who programmed Stephen Hawking's voice synthesising thing doesn't it?

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

stephen gately pronounces it whichever way his nose decides

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and rjg/anyone else who agrees with him or says that i just can't hear the difference between an "f" and a "v" when i hear it, i have one friend called steven and another called stephen - they bothe like to be know as steve... not one as steve and the other one as "steef"... argument closed, you bunch of maniacs!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

if you want the f spell it Stefan

― H (Heruy), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

if you want the V spell it with one!!!!!!!

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

time and morons make me a moron, eh, dastoor?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

and ally i am not worried about the pronunciation of stephen at all, more the banality of this argument and the fact that for some unknown reason i have been sucked into it... nice to see you back, too...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

ailsa just won.

RJG is right, I don't know why this is even a question. How do you people pronounce Pharrell???

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"Varrell", he'd right kick your ass I think.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Tep: What I'm getting at is that there IS a difference but the difference is slight, slight enough that people A) mispronounce B) mishear. But there's no denying that "ph" can only make the sound of an "f", be it hard or soft f. We might as well not have any rules at all.

― Ally-zay (mlescaut), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I have now decided that this whole thread depends entirely on what is meant by the question. If it means "how does each person who gives a toss about this pronounce it" then it's being well and truly answered. If it means "how should it be pronounced" it would appear there seems to be no "right" way to pronounce it, since people are disagreeing, but discussing it's no more absurd than a lot of other things on this board.

You say potato, I say potato. Er, that doesn't work written down really, does it?

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

But there's no denying that "ph" can only make the sound of an "f", be it hard or soft f. We might as well not have any rules at all.

Of course there's denying it. There's no letter, and likely no combination of letters, which can only ever make one sound in English. It's just not one of our rules. It's not built that way.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The people who apparently think it's king shit of funny mountain to go on and on and on and FUCKING ON about how trivial this thread is are taking up more room than anyone else. Kindly vuck the hell off, and quickly.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Cause, you know, I could do that about Hanson vs. N'Sync, too, but I have a life and I'm happy with my cock.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

ally and richard
in english-language chau-
vinism shocka!

my 'stephen' is from
slavic grandfather to whom
the 'V' was just dumb

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

But there's no denying that "ph" can only make the sound of an "f", be it hard or soft f. We might as well not have any rules at all.

craphouse... no phucking "f" there is there...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah,

back to the point of 'women'. help me out here.

'women' is [are] another COMPLETE ANOMALY. like this stupid PH as V in ONE INSTANCE.

I can't make these same points more than two or three more times. but I might have to force myself to.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

RJG, ultimately the anomalies are because spelling was standardized by amateurs who didn't really know much about English. I'm not making that up. That can explain a lot of oddities, though, if it makes it easier.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, here we are again,

you said plenty of times that 'stephen' is a name of greek origin. in its original form the PH would be F. therefore: PH as V is WRONG IN A WAY even if accepted by EVERYONE. moreso: PH as F is RIGHTER IN A WAY even if IGNORED.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Anthony pronounced with a "th" vs. Anthony pronounced with a "t" (the latter is right, obv).

― Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 29 August 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"accepted by everyone" contradicts "wrong in a way." Where do language rules come from? If we drop an E, will gravity drag it to the end of a word and make it silent? Can we isolate the fundamental particle of the subjunctive? (Because I hope we can, "Subjunctivon" would be a great Transformer.)

You're misunderstanding the way language works as much as Dastoor was.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I was taking extremes. wrong in the way that that is not how it began even if that is how it sometimes is, now, for some people.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

How was I misunderstanding it? (you mean over the disintrest/uninterest thing? well fuck it - style guides the world over think it's a useful distinction to maintain, even if it seems RJG's online dictionaries doesn't. I guess that yes, ultimately you have to give up if enough people don't bother with it. Ancient Greece -> today certainly seems a rather long timespan for RJG to be hoping pronunciation models still to hold)

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

not HOLD. but not disappear or be dismissed as WRONG or OUTRAGEOUS.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Right, but ... I just can't take that as a definition of wrong. That covers lots of words in our language. The whole reason Dastoor's wrong about disinterest is because if you limited "correct" usage to sticking to what came first, nearly everything that came out of our mouths would be wrong. All of our pronunciation would be wrong, because of the great vowel shift. Most of our adjectives would be wrong (they shift more than nouns; don't ask me why). "Awful" would become a compliment, but without irony. Language changes, language shifts -- that's one of the few constants about it.

xp --

How was I misunderstanding it?

I think it's a useful distinction, it just doesn't make the other usage outright wrong. Once enough people start using something, and continue to do so for long enough, there's just no reasonable standard you can dig out to weigh right from wrong.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

'awful' is the new old new 'wicked'.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Tep, it's not to do with limiting it to what came first. That would be ridiculous. Of course language evolves. I have no idea what 'disinterest' first meant. Maybe the distinction between it and 'uninterest' was brought in by a fusty C19th lexicographer. I don't know. All I do know is that I have been taught the distinction since school, that it appears in many usage notes in dictionaries and style guides, and that it seems a useful distinction to maintain. This is intrinsically a grey area unless you are to either ossify a language or conversely, take a complete 'anything goes' approach to it where there's no such thing as an incorrect usage of a word.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I'm just going by RJG's report, remember, which sounded as though you were saying "disinterest" could only be used to mean one thing, and that any secondary meaning that had been adopted was only the result of getting it wrong. (Which sounded like "what came first is right" to me, but I see what you mean.)

Anyway, ignore that line if you want, I was just trying to point out to RJG that his focus on right vs. wrong was off-mark, and that he'd been complaining about you doing the same thing.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The exact words I used were "I did not like your use of 'disinterest' in that thread'".

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

that's true.

I do not like your not liking my pronunciation of 'stephen'.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's talk about the word "Colonel" next.

― Mandee, Friday, 29 August 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

well, it's not even that--not liking. it's your complete rejection of it as a valid pronunciation when it is still used AS WELL AS being the original??

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, colonel next.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"Colonel" is a re-Latinization of "coronel" (from French) originally, I think. More dictionary-makers at fault -- they changed the spelling to be closer to beloved Latin than hated French, but everyone kept talking the same.

That's off the top of my head, so I could be missing a detail; it's one of those things in like "1001 wacky facts about English" and whatnot.

(My mother buys me a new page-a-day calendar every Christmas.)

Lieutenant vs lefftenant!

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, the thing about loo-tenant vs leff-tenant is kind of cool.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

V becomes F!!

the lieu and tenant thing is pretty obvious.

how come columbo was only a lieutenant?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought we were all taking extreme postions to make it more fun but I am starting to think RJG actually took it all to heart. It is his brother after all. It's true that if I have ever heard anyone say 'Stee-fan' before I must have put it down to their accent. You presumably did the same with 'Stee-van'. I still think you are in a very small minority with your pronunciation, but hey, I'm all for minority sports.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

you're calling an end to the fun?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

It no longer seems like fun to me.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

It's starting to seem a little like vun, isn't it?

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Once we've rid ourselves of 'colonel': 'hanged'?

I admire RJG's obstinance on this thread.

― David. (Cozen), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha stephen dorff

― minna (minna), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Like Alice Cooper in his song Steven.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you mean "hanged" like as opposed to "hung" .. ? I think that's another "two usages were both immortalized and used for different things" thing, but that's only a guess. I can look it up if that's what you mean, I've got the OED here and it might say.

― Tep (ktepi), Friday, 29 August 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Spell it how you will, and pronounce it how you will -- and I promise I'll pronounce it for you exactly as you want me to pronounce it, buuuuuuutttttttt ...

to me, it will always sound best as "Stef-en".

This is because "Stef-en" -- is short and sharp and rhythmic.

Whereas "Steev-in"/"Stee-van"/"Stee-ven"/etc has a sort of faltering, nasal quality (from the emphasis on the vowels in the middle no doubt) that sounds meeker than the other version.

in short :
"Steven" sounds like a kid
"Stefan" sounds like an adult

― stripey, Friday, 29 August 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

How do you pronounce 'Stefan'?

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 29 August 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

esteban

― minna (minna), Friday, 29 August 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

hehehe! oops -- better clarify! :)

I pronounce Stefan as "Stef-an" (which isn't too far from my preferred way of pronouncing Stephen, which -- as I mentioned above --is "Stef-en".

That's why I used "Stefan" in my last example instead of "Stephen" -- because if I wrote "Stephen" then people wouldn't know how I was pronouncing it! ...

--------

Stephen sounds like a kid
Stephen sounds like an adult

--------

-- see what I mean? ;)

Oh, you didn't ask about how I pronounce Steven, but I pronounce it "Stee-ven" with a slightly longer "e" sound in the middle. If that's how you pronounce "Stephen" -- well, that's ok -- we'll agree to disagree. :)

― stripey, Friday, 29 August 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

iI HATE CLUBBING

just the sheer size of this thread!

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

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