Patriot Day

Surely this day is a day for patriotism?

(however I wish somebody from Ireland would explain the latter verses of this song to me, as they seem to list from fervent anti-patriotism to, umm, pretty ardent patriotism)

Why is everyone here so cynical about loving their country, or feeling a duty towards it?

People who love their country and fellow citizens. People who want to have some sort of unity.

obviously, what we truly need is something to commerate that day, so that we will NEVAR FORGETT:

why, a highly-collectible commerative plate should do it!
http://www.giftmerchant.net:80/gftmerch/assets/product_images/product_lib/32000-32999/32420.jpg

also:

na·tion·al·ism     P   Pronunciation Key  (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the conviction that the culture and interests of your nation are superior to those of any other nation

vs

patriotism
\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.

Oh yeah, cuz i'm an anglophilic music geek, too.

Britain's loss and defeat at Dunkirk became associated with the patriotic idea of the "Dunkirk Spirit."

No Brit seems to mind this.

to gain political capital from it, obv.
-- Kingfish

Political capital would only be gained if it met with the approval of the populace. If it didn't then no political capital would be gained.

So if people don't want it then it'll be backlash for the govt. If they want it then govt is in tune with it's citizens. Either way there's no room for cynicism.

Please, stop it. I don't want to have to be compelled to hate you with every fiber of my being like how I hate the whole notion of "blame America first". Your comments are rude, crude, and insensitive. You seem to want to appear as though you know everything about the U.S., but you just don't.

The Islamist world (not Islamic world -- those people are just trying to live out normal lives like the rest of us) has been dead-set on making the world safe for one and only one religion -- the Islamic one. They cannot stand the thought of a government being either secular or based on another faith. They will attack Jewish people, Christian people, Hindu people, whatever other faith there is, because they've got it in their crazy minds that the only way is the Islamic way and that everyone else is just destined to go straight to hell. (And before you get on my case about that, I will remind you that *I* and countless millions of my fellow adherents do *not* think in those terms at all, not in regards to non-Christians.) Islamists won't rest until Israel as a state is dead. Islamists won't rest until the U.S. is ruled under the iron hand of an ayatollah, or just plain out-and-out destroyed. Islamists would kill a little American or Australian baby just for the "sin" of having been born in one of those two countries. This is our enemy.

It's interesting how you bring up "abuse" and "destruction". America is guilty of a great many things, but you know what? So's the rest of the world. You think the East is so high and mighty? May I remind you of the destruction and pain the East has visited upon itself? Backbreakingly poor countries are good at being especially violent upon themselves. To blame the West for all the bad that's happened to the East is to conveniently find a scapegoat. And as far as I can tell with the reading I've done, the U.S. has tried to do the right thing, the best thing possible, throughout its existence, though I do find it laughable that you state that all of this has been happening for "the last 200 years". The U.S. hasn't been as powerful as it's been recently until about maybe 75 years ago! Before the 1900s, the U.S. was a mostly agrarian society, with certainly a lot less clout than it has today, and definitely not a "superpower".

btw, by your logic, you're condoning extreme violence and terroristic acts against not just the U.S., but Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, and any other country out there who has ever had a colonizing past. Wow, bet those people would be truly pleased to hear that.

Listen, America to me means the country my grandparents worked their asses off to enter. They struggled so hard to become U.S. citizens and to enter into American society, but it was all worth it because they and my parents were actually able to take advantage of all that the U.S. has to offer. My parents were only able to get what they got because they lived in the U.S.; I don't even want to know how our lives would've played out had my grandparents not been motivated enough to leave Mexico. I don't relish the thought of living in a society where you're guaranteed that the cop on the street is corrupt, where you have to worry about paramilitary troops or random incidents of kidnapping happening all the time or traveling down the "wrong" highway or any one of the countless scary things that happen in Mexico. I thank God every moment of my life that I'm an American and that I'm able to have the life I have, and it displeases me greatly that you think my family and I are evil people who deserve every kind of unpleasant thing that may happen to us.

But wait -- *are* you that kind of person? I'm starting to believe that when you found out my father had passed away, you broke out the champagne glasses and had a mini-party, because "one of those EVIL American types died whoo hoo!", especially since we're basically all "evil capitalists" who strive to climb the socioeconomic ladder (we've been successful thus far, btw). Please prove me wrong. Please tell me that you have some kind of compassion residing inside you.

Anyway, I'm an American. I am PROUD to be an American. If you have a problem with that, or think I'm not worthy of your kind thoughts, then you're missing out on ME, because I happen to think I, as well as millions of my fellow citizens, am a fabulous and wonderful person with a heart full of compassion and a true desire to see people be happy. It is my hope that your blind hatred toward America and its citizens doesn't blind you to how wonderful America and Americans can be. Sure, our country has done wrong things. So has every other country that has ever existed. We are not to blame for Islamists. Islamists bastardize the Islamic faith. Please don't prove the "blame America first" stereotype truly exists. Please.

p.s.: It is a nice idea, thinking of today as purely a way of remembering those who were lost two years ago today. But please don't try to suppress what people in general will be thinking over here, which would tend to lean toward the "I love this country and I'll be damned if someone tries to harm it again" line of thinking.

Please, let's not turn this into another thread about that.

Ray Davies had the right idea when he wanted us just to have a cuppa tea.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf600/f613/f61340zg6bm.jpg

as for my political leanings, i do consider myself slightly left of center, and was *very* close to heading to the U.S. Air Force Academy when i was 17. Laziness and a strong desire not to conform(but mostly laziness) had me choose engineering school in ann arbor, instead.

okay, place your bets: this thread spirals out of control and hits 300+ posts by 17:00 EST. Anybody? $5?

p.s.
Tea in the mornin'
Tea in the evenin'
Tea for suppertime!

dee i think you are wrong on many counts, but i do have a genuine question: what is an islamist? i've never heard the word used before.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=islamist&r=67

Dave Q may not like it but I think Al Franken was onto something there. Poor ol' wimpy me. ;-)

I would like to point out the origin of Jihad as the concept of holy war, rather than as an internal struggle with temptation and the unholy. Jihad as holy war was cooked up in the Foreign ministries of of Britain and Russia and in their embassies in the 19th century to further their aims in central asia by stiring up Islamic peoples into revolt against one power or the other. This grand tradition was continued by the US in Afghanistan in the 1980s, producing the Taliban and Al quada from the Mujahadeen (and therefore CIA and Pakistani) funded Madrassas. Its not the only factor that created Al Quaeda but it certainly gave a breeding ground for things like this to happen.

Bigggotry and intolerance to the point of violence is not the sole preserve of the Islamists there are plenty of Christain, Jewish, Hindu etc. fundamentalist who reject the teaching of their own religions and set off on missions to convert or kill the infidel.

I'm not blaming America, the blame rests on many shoulders and goes back centuries. Trust me Britain and Russia were stirring up Islamists long before was even considered as a world power. The cycle of violence has to be broken and we have to make moves to stop people flocking to the men of violence. We have to work out why drives people to acts of such desperation and try and find an alternative. The only way to defeat terrorism is to break the cycle of violence. To remove everything that drives people to desperation.

I do not wish to condone violence of any kind, and I am horrified that you even think I would.

I am not anti-american, but that does not mean I have to condone everything that America does and the current administration is despicable and abhorrent in the extreme.

'Fanatic' seems too far loaded the other way.

I agree with a lot of what Dee said about Islamists (yes, awkward word)--there's some bad shit going on out there. However, I do feel that it's absolutely patriotic to celebrate the political system here by registering my disappointment with the US's support of oppressive (and sometimes Islamist) regimes like those that existed in Indonesia and that continue in Saudi Arabia.

I do see your point about 'fun'. Also 'mentalist' come to think of it.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown used the phrase "Islamic fascists" in her Indy column the other day. Somehow, though, I very much doubt this is diplomatic or useful in the slightest when said by non-Muslims.

(Accursed x-posts! A jihad on you!)

We have to work out why drives people to acts of such desperation and try and find an alternative.

And Dave Q, as for where's the culture of Americans that say "America sucks!" you must indeed be joking when you pretend it doesn't exist. Read Indymedia, for crying out loud! There is tons of this stuff out there and most of it DOES come from Americans. Ever been to hear Chomsky speak? (I have, but eh.. I was only 22).

Oh, and last - this calling it Patriot Day thing is perhaps being blown out of proportion. It didn't even get mentioned anywhere on the morning news shows but in passing, one time, and not at all as I saw in the major papers.

Nationalism or patriotism, call it what you will, is a blind alley where people can go to hide if they choose not to deal with living in a complex and often frightening world. Every living person has the duty to value each person and each nation equally. Not to do so is to narrow one's horizons.

There's a conflation in Dee's post between the oppressed/resentful and the genuinely fascistic that worries me.

Also yes thank god none of us are patriots but to some people this is quite comforting, just because we think we're bigger than symbolism does not mean we are better.

When I said way up this thread that I did consider myself a patriot, well, this is something I never would have claimed a few years ago - and it's only since I DID have this sense of patriotism, of connection to & responsibility to this country, that I felt compelled to stand up and do what I could to change it for the better. So I would call it patriotism that had me out on the streets of Washington at a march against the bombing of Afghanistan, at a massive demonstration in support of Palestinian statehood, and currently, working to elect a Democratic president in 2004. Wow, do I sound cheesy sometimes, but it suits me better than being cynical.

But yeah, patriotism is weird. It's the idea that you should feel irrational exuberance towards someplace just because you were born (or live) there. Which might make sense if you were more fully involved with its success or failure (if you had any "ownership" over the country), but mostly seems like a form of brainwashing.

That's because it took you to point it out! ;-)

I've invoked Ambrose Bierce on some past threads, time to invoke him again:

PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.

PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.

These people seem to want you to buy party supplies for the occasion.

Yeah! The only time I feel any patriotism towards to my, um, ancestral homeland [Korea] is during the World Cup and the Olympics. The South Korean women's handball team = best.

"NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH" is a great line

Intro:
Who, Mi nuh like how dem a treat di ghetto youth dem inno
Chuh !, Woi woi, woi woi woi woi woi
Chuh ! (Ghetto youths dem a bawl, long eyewater a fall)
Cho

Tell mi if yuh ever walk di streets of the ghetto dem before
Fi see who is unsafe from secure
The lifestyle of my people they fail to recognise
Do you know what it takes for ghetto people to survive
Did you ever walk through August Town at all
Fi hear the comments of the people whey a bawl
Wonder what it takes for you to realise
How Riverton city ghetto youths dem survive

Verse 1:
Dats why we a king from wi dey home inna Africa
Once wi a trod through Rome wi a warrior
Whey wi fi get all now it nuh deliver
Our share unno tek an a dis wi after
When yuh money start rise yuh keep yuh secret secure
When it start fall yuh mek it known to the poor
Soon you'll be coming back for more
All when yuh cup full a wi yuh ignore

Verse 2:
Then yuh commenting all the while about the places we live
Degrade wi lifestyle when yuh make it what it is
Have reaping violence in many cities
Now I dream to stronghold in many village
Now who will protect those who truly want peace
How can we keep the peace when there is no peace to keep
This time I take no defeat Oh Lord, I'm inclined to stand on my feet.

Verse 3:
Well then Mr. Rich, come offa di poor man's feet
How is it the strong want to downpress the weak
Without those who clean the sanitary and sweep the street
Yuh cities would be mucky, yuh nuh see it
Who you, promise the city flation below
Yet it increase everywhere dat we go
Is this the way that yuh love a show
Hurting others and yuh hold on so.

I'm all for celebrating the life of the brave souls that died, but I smell Fad.

The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk is a fascinating and easy-to-read history of Central Asian geopolitics if anyone wants to know more about Ed's point... I'm re-reading it now.

(xp)

I do wish to let you know that I'm not going to comment on what you've stated about the current administration aside from the fact that you should know where I stand with it and I should know where you stand with it and we'll agree to disagree and so on and so forth. *grin*

Oh yes, and as for what Islamists are -- well, I forget where I first read about the term, but it was from a Robert D. Kaplan book, and I *do* believe it was The Ends of the Earth but I could be wrong with that, and I don't think Muslims and Islamists are really similar to each other, much like how fundamentalist Christians who bomb abortion clinics are different to those of us Christians who are derided by the extremists as being "cafeteria Christians".

p.s.: I stick around here because I generally think you guys are the most intelligent people I've ever met online and in terms of non-political topics, you have a hell of a lot to teach me.

Ursula LeGuin. (Left Hand of Darkness)

I guess my patriotism is quite smug.

And mine is quite cynical as hell. I suppose I still have feelings for and romanticize the crazy 1900-1930s America, but I firmly believe that 21st Century America is a runaway monster of corporate (and increasingly militaristic) imperialism and fascism both at home and abroad. This kind of power is agnostic to the meaningless liberal/conservative antagonism that wastes all of our time and I'm convinced that The Current Situation would still be as ugly right now if there was a Democratic administration instead of a Republican one. The only real difference with Bush II is that the slide to fascism is accelerated.

I somehow made it until now before learning that some people call it Patriot Day.