childlessness

What bothers me is people having children because it's *expected* -- it's the default setting -- without *thinking* about whether they want, or should have children, and DECIDING. It's not like taking a kitten home.

(xp to Ned)

Please don't get this twisted and think that I want there to be less brown people or whatever

Well, that's a relief. ;)

(I'm sorry, I'm totally seeing your point, oops. I just felt the need to add a bit of my usual lame-ass, so-called "levity" here.)

IMHO only damned talented people should shun the easy path to adding meaning to their lives through children and attempt to concentrate all the meaning of their lives into their work or play -- or their spouse.

http://www.sbhcs.com/education/residency/cute-baby.jpg

A lot of people will probably never know how talented they are because they're too tired to do anything but raise their children.

now, having had a son ( much to my surprise ) i am so glad i am experiencing the 'wonder' that is parenthood.
giving birth was traumatic ( emergency caesarian nasty stuff etc ) but as someone who truly felt that having a child was not a thing i really wanted, i can now say with conviction that it is definately the most fantastic thing to happen to me. it is tiring at times( exhausting might be more appropriate ), and it can be a thankless existence, especially when you are a sole parent, but i wouldnt change a thing now because it is so worth it.

it doesnt bother me if people say they dont want children, ever. if they change their mind later thats fine. if not, well so what! i used to get annoyed at the pressure to 'start a family' sometimes too, when i was married.

I think it's a lot easier for a guy to say "never" though b/c they won't find themselves whispering wordless prayers for days when going to the bathroom only to have reality dropped on them like a ton of bricks. Once those bricks hit you you're "never"s can change.

I quite like children, but the idea of pregnancy (natural state, yes yes) just feels so so so wrong.

I agree with that totally and it's the aspect of having children that I like the least - the physicality of it. It's not something I envy women over. Then again some women do enjoy pregnancy itself.

I also hated the midwives and nurses/health visitors bustling around talking about 'baby' (and later 'cruising' and all the other babycare jargon). I only really started to enjoy parenthood when my son began to talk (and then his evolution into being a little bloke).

I find that disturbing. A person is only of value to you if they can discuss such things with you? Is everyone just source material and intellectual fodder for you? That's twisted.

It is true, though, that I'd often rather be alone than around people I have nothing to say to. Makes me uncomfortable. You know, I imagine myself trying to play with kids, you know, laughing and running around in the backyard and making silly faces, and the children are grinning and calling me "daddy," and I get a chill. Sounds like a horrible way to spend my time. Can't say why, and maybe a good therapist could explain it to me, but the idea repulses me. I would make a horrible father.

'cruising' is babycare jargon?! Sick!

Children are not in my future... I would be an awful, awful father. I will be a godfather one day and that will be OK because of the whole limited contact thing, but generally I don't like being around small children.

I didn't want children in my 20s but I didn't not want them - it seemed likely that I would at some point and so it's proved. It was very much the experience of doing something else I wanted to with my talents and making a relative success of it that changed my mind. I pretty much realised that I could either keep on writing and pushing my writing and trying to 'make something' of that, or I could have kids and raise them, and the latter just seems so much more challenging and interesting and likely to make me a less selfish and better person. I'm also lucky enough to be engaged to somebody whose talent is relating to and teaching kids, and her level of talent at that dwarfs anything I can do, so I'm not worried *too* much that my own potential failings as a parent will ruin my kids lives.

It doesn't seem all that likely that I would have them in the first place, though - at least not my own, although do I wonder about adoption. From what I've heard, possible adopters' interest tails off the older the child gets - there's a lot of (for lack of a better word) demand for tiny babies, very little for pre-teens and teenagers, and that's such a hellish time anyway it must be even worse if you're stuck in a foster home. They're no doubt harder to deal with at that age, but they're their own person, even if some of them are fucked up, and, you know, just giving someone somewhere to call home - their own home - until they're legally allowed to take care of themselves could have a lot of upsides.

I raise them part time (50% when possible) and now I could not imagine my world without them.

People who do not have children miss out on a very valuable aspect of life. I completely understand their decision not have any, but to me, as someone with children, "they" are less appealing to me because they are less likely to understand what I am experiencing.

It is nearly always the female that wishes to have a child (starting in their mid to late twenties). Men just do not have this urge to reproduce.

Having children is the best movie I have ever seen, with me in it!

The question is not: "why have children" the question is: "why not have children?"

For those in their early twenties:
Your friends are going to have children and they will become different people. Join them!

Seeing a child being born is incredible.

Not being able to give birth yourself as a male is frustrating, and not being able to breastfeed them too.

Hey, I've never made any friends of mine with kids feel bad that they have them. And they don't do the same with me in turn. A fine balance.

Do you think kids are responsible for some sort of brain-changing chemical that makes you like them?

if the former well probably at some basic biological level.

if the latter, it's inevtiable b/c your life's focus has changed from yourself to someone else entirely.

Almost certainly. Not that that's a problem -- it's much worse when you have kids and don't like them.

I'm 29, and already many people I know are having kids. Not my oldest friends, though... they're living in the tropics or making too much money and sport fucking. But it's getting harder to meet new people who don't already have kids.

Good thing I live in the gay/lesbian neighborhood.

why do you think this is, jan?

People who do not have children miss out on a very valuable aspect of life

people who are not musically inclined miss out on a very valuable aspect of life. < / musician > everyone misses out on lots of great things about life, its a crucial part of being human and limited. childless people don't say things like "i'm less inclined to hang out with my mum cos shes got kids and we just don't have that in common".

(And I'm not jumping at having kids again, either; I loved it, and if the conditions were great, sure -- but I won't die unfulfilled if it never happens again.)

Personally I can't imagine not having kids, it's as big a challenge and probably as enjoyable a challenge as there is too. Plus I like kids!

And then I also go through baby scares. You know, when I freak out, thinking, "What if I'm pregnant??! Oh god ! That would be the worst thing ever!" And I start thinking about puking and physical discomfort and the house not being clean enough and having nightmares about alien babies and my relatives shaking their heads as I'm not married.
So, um, I guess I think about them alot.

I still get annoyed when my mom tells me (at least once a week) that having babies after 30 is dangerous.

Hmmm... But what kind of baby would I adopt? I mean, OBVIOUSLY Japanese babies are the cutest, but he/she would always make me feel too tall.

Where's the biggest supply of kids to be adopted? Um, I mean, where are they from?

Stence, 1 in 5 people with Bipolar Disorder commit suicide so there is a chance of something like that happening.

One time Nick joked that pregnant women are unattractive because they're fat. I hold it over his head all the time.

Oh fuck, there's a nice statistic to start the day with... And, yeah, another reason not to have kids: both me AND the Mr. have this charming genetic gift to pass on. Sometimes I feel bad for inflicting it on the dog.

Cute babies to adopt: Chinese girls. They give up all these Chinese girls for adoption 'cause they're only allowed one child, & they want to keep trying for boys. I think Chinese girl babies are ADORABLE.

If we really wanted kids we would live on less money for a while, it's what most people do. The problem didn't start when I gave up my big salary, it was always there because even when I fully intended carry on in my career I knew I couldn't stand to be locked into it by having responsibility for kids. I always needed to have the option of walking out of the office and deciding I wasn't going back.

Sorry for not hating the idea of a "normal life".

big upping=?

I HATE throwing up. I mean, just for the record.
And I get dizzy really easy. I got horrible motion sickness just from watching Blair Witch project and Traffic.

Had I known what I know now about the joys of parenthood and the miseries of middle age I would certainly have done it sooner.

Plus I'm convinced not being born through the birth canal affects people at some level for the rest of their lives.

How bad are C-section scars? I mean, since your belly is all filled with baby, it seems like the actual scar would end up being pretty small when it shrunk back down...?

God, I'm such a wuss.

They closed the Elizabeth Seton Childbearing Center in New York recently which totally sucks.

kenan I don't mind
sacrificing my "talent"
to be good as Dad;

not sure if I am
all that 'talented' even,
except as father

Also, you need to make sure your ob/gyn is one that does not routinely do episiotomies.

I met this girl when I was temping (well, woman) who had quite the horror story. She was pregnant for 8 months and lost the baby. THe ENTIRE time she threw up constantly and bled and all of these other very very bad things. She spent most of that time in the hospital. And she didn't have health insurance or maternity leave either. YIKES!

My grandmother has lots of horror stories, but my mom seems to have done ok birthing 3 healthy babies and only having one miscarriage (my grandmother had numerous ones and spent her entire pregnancies on her back).

Thanks,
Sarah "Horror Story" McL.

You usually stretch and exercises during pregnancy can avoid tearing off the perinum. Women should read up on more natural means of pregnancy and birth. Doctors don't always know best.

Oh! I just remembered another reason to freak out! What if the baby is messed up? You know, it lives, but it's horribly deformed or has diseases or what-not. Just something to add to the list.

But seriously, somehow I still want a baby someday.

Sam is OTM. Lots of childbirth procedures are done for the convenience of the doctor rather than what's good for the mother and baby

But, for the ladies, do you all freak out about this stuff as much as I do? I mean, I don't even have plans to have kids any time soon, but I worry and occasionally do that weird nesting thing where I clean and think, "This won't be good enough at all for the baby!"

And do you men EVER think about that stuff outside of actually having a baby on the way? I mean, I know some guys on this board have said that they are excited about and plan to have kids some day. But do you ever WORRY about it?

Ally, I once had this horrible nightmare, which I wouldn't be surprised to already find somewhere on ILX... Anyway, I had this baby and the doctor's took it away and wouldn't let me look at it. So I snuck out of my hospital room and went in the baby room. My Dad was in there and he ran over to me and stopped me and was like, "SArah, NO! Don't go over there! You don't want to see it!" And I was like, "My baby!" in the most melodramatic way ever. So the nurses drag me back to my room, but later I escape back to the baby room and my baby was the most awful, ugly alien type thing you've ever seen, spewing all kinds of gross stuff everywhere. ARGHHH!!! Welcome to my crazy mind!

Also, this thread makes me want to make an indie short film in black and white starring me scrubbing the floors with a mad look in my eye saying, "Not good enough for the baby!"

It reminds me of the Queer Eye episode last night where this guy breaks his new martini shaker and as he's sweeping it up he keeps muttering, "This is why I can't buy nice things..."

Haha I have to admit I'm really laughing over the "My baby!" thing though, that's a good thing to yell dramatically.

(xpost)

Haikunym, will this do?

Did you guys see the fire retardant breast milk story? C'mon, that's freaky shit!

I’ve since discovered there is a growing ‘childfree’ movement dedicate to the rights of adults who deliberately choose not to procreate eg

http://www.childfree.ca/index.html
http://www.childfree.net/
http://www.olist.com/essays/text/ray/shame_children.html

anononon, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My last bf and I broke up primarily because he wanted his kids to be pure-bred jews and I am not jewish. And that was a bit mad because we were still in college at the time and hadn't even talked about marriage. Would your lesbian friends be interested in having a dad around? Or would you be sad that you couldn't be more involved in the kid's life?

ask all my girlfriends!
(insert sound of my laughing
then crying a lot)

</daveq>

More seriously though, having a kid because it seems like the greatest challenge is super fucking dud. Go climb Everest, and if you want to have the responsibility of another life for eighteen years afterwards, then have a baby.

Warning: white space covers a grim story. No, really.

Ally's dream sort of happened to a friend of mine and his wife. They went for one of their regular Friday checkups quite late in the pregnancy, and the staff started looking more and more worried, then said "we can't find a heartbeat". Normally what you do is induce labour immediately, but the hospital didn't have any spare beds, so they had to come back the next Monday.

I think I'll go home soon and rock myself gentley to sleep. Ha ha. No, I'm really not quite that psycho.

Sarah, I was joking.

Luna, yeah I can imagine in the midst of pushing a HUMAN BEING from down there a little torn flesh isn't going to make much of an impact on the pain scale.

Except don't flush the baby.

a joke that plays on a glaswegian dialect.

dave q, why would you want to have a bunch of kids you'd never see anyway? Is it just something about proving virility?

I think my baby fever is kind of dropping to a low simmer today. I've got too much else on my mind, like recording and planning for the ULTIMATE X-TREME yard sale we're having in a little over a week.

Whether it is really more interesting, I am not sure. Possibly this is not comparing like with like, somehow.

Another way of looking at it: which makes you a more interesting person to others: having children, or writing?

I think it is a slight shame that you appear to be demoting writing in favour of family. It feels a bit of a cop-out.

But possibly not having children is a cop-out too.

Oddly, both of my men don't want children either (primarily citing genetic concerns, followed by time-committment stuff). But they've said, repeatedly, that if I end-up pregnant then they don't want to know who the biological father is and that they would each support me in whatever decision I made about whether to carry the fetus or not.

Sadly, these men would make the most awesome parents ... the kid would be exposed to amazing and varied and fun things. And would know love and support and nurturing.

We've talked about foster-parenting and I am inclined toward adoption, sometime down the road, if I am going to become a parent.

Before they can walk properly a lot of babies like to lever themselves up into a standing position (holding on to a chair or whatever), then move along sideways holding on all the time. This, in babycare jargon, is 'cruising'. I just thought why do they have to call it that?

Well, spoiled-rotten kids, at least. I'll just play with them when they're in good moods *grinning*

Actually, um, what is 'My Two Dads'?

I do this too! And when I do it, I say "Oh, for dumb!" and "Uffdah!" (My family is from Minnesota. It's all their fault.)

Man, I thought that was just a random MST3K phrase, but I should have known.

Man, I thought that was just a random MST3K phrase, but I should have known.

Yes, you should have. It's a Minnesotan thing, pure and simple. Have you read Mike Nelson's Death Rat?

But I do find that some people don't understand when I (and Glenn and David) explain that we're not planning on having children. Luckily, our families do understand and have not pressured any of us to do the reproduction dance. (But the parental units did transfer that guilt trip to our respective siblings.)

I can leave her, but I don’t want to divorce.
I can stay in a childless marriage, but right now it’s eating me up.

I am very sad.

-- teeny

!
so what *did* change your mind?

My man was the one who was mad keen to have children, and indeed he was the one who brought the subject up very very early on in our relationship. I was only in my mid-twenties at the time, and although I quite liked other people's children and had vaguely thought that I might eventually like one or two of my own one day, I really hadn't given it a huge amount of thought. I was happy the way we were, happy with my career (which didn't really accommodate babies) and was in no rush to procreate. We agreed that it was something we'd both like, but not just yet. And then I woke up one morning and raging hormones were screaming at me to become a mother immediately. It was quite incredible - the need to become pregnant was like being taken over by some unstoppable alien force.

I don't know whether your wife has any specific reasons for not wanting to have children - health problems, or an unhappy childhood of her own, or whatever - but sometimes people do suddenly change their minds. Not everyone has a biological clock ticking away of course, but I have known women who spent years being vehemently opposed to procreation suddenly start lingering in Mothercare looking longingly at the tiny baby clothes.

Like stevie says .... why doesn't your wife want children?

She explains that much of her life has felt a struggle to achieve a sense of psychological stability and self-worth, but especially since she turned 30 things have improved for her. She enjoys her lifestyle, her friends, her hobbies, and her work, and feels a calmness and assuredness she never had before.

She feels having a child would threaten this; and the lifelong commitment involved fills her with horror. She is terrified she will lose me but feels it would be deeply irresponsible - to the child as much as anyone - to have a child she simply does not want to please me/ save our relationship.

I have to respect this. I love her, but I want children. I feel checkmated.

(Thanks for responding Nathalie + C J, btw, appreciate it)

Also, in agreement with CJ, I cannot believe that ppl do not discuss this beforehand. I know you don't want to be seen to be jumping the gun, but I have to say that in my realtionship, it was one of the first things that we discussed.

She explains that much of her life has felt a struggle to achieve a sense of psychological stability and self-worth, but especially since she turned 30 things have improved for her. She enjoys her lifestyle, her friends, her hobbies, and her work, and feels a calmness and assuredness she never had before.

Is it possible that there's some sort of fear of failure there? Maybe keep trying to build up her general confidence, give her plenty of support and just hang on in there.

In a brief telephone intake I was told that my situation was rather unusual and advised if I have decided to remain with my wife I will need to learn to accept placing my marriage above potential fatherhood, and in doing so make her decision my own, but will need to mourn my lost desire to have children. (difficult not talking about this in psychobabble). I think this is essentially correct. I’ve talked with a close male friend, (typically male I’m not good generally at ‘sharing’) but the fact he’s just become a father himself hasn’t helped. I’ve started sponsoring a child in Senegal. I’ve taken up making music again for the first time in years. I’ve thrown myself into my frequently demanding work. I try to think how being childless has its advantages, financially and in lack of responsibilities - I recently took a week off and went on holiday alone to think things over- but when one craves those responsibilities these benefits offer cold comfort.

Still, being able to share my frustrations here, and in the process clarifying them, does offer some solace, for which I’m grateful.

If you're definitely going to stay with your wife and reconcile yourself to a life without your own children, what about investing some time and energy into other people's kids - with their permission of course? Do you have siblings/relatives/friends with children? Often others are delighted when someone else takes a big interest in their kids and helps them with childcare or introducing them to new sports and pastimes etc

My brother loves kids but doesn't have any of his own. He spends a lot of time with his friends kids and has become an adopted 'uncle' in lots of families. His girlfriend has no interest in children so he appears to satisfy his paternal longing in that way.

x-post

I think Penelope offered some good ideas! When I was a child I had an *uncle* (a close gay male friend of my parents). He never had any children but briefly adopted one. Of course adoption is out of the question, but doing some volunteer work might be a really good idea! That is, if the pain is less through this volunteer, I could see that exposure to children could worsen the pain.

I have an acquaintance who wanted children. Her husband first said no, but then said he changed his mind (because she was so unhappy being childless). But apparently they are fertility problems. His reaction? He doesn't want to be tested, so she's left with the realization that children are out of the question (again). She's Japanese and lives in Belgium. She's very depressed, as you can guess.

I live some distance from my own family, and my in-laws are, well, my in-laws if you know what I mean. I’ve looked into taking a more active role with other people’s children one way or another but Dr. C is quite correct I think that having your own children is v. different to being with others. She could change her mind of course but I regard it improbable, she is very resolute and I would be fooling myself if I lay much hope in the prospect. I no longer think her reluctance is based on a lack of confidence, or the desire to put her career +/or social life first. She simply does not want children and thinks becoming a mother will make her deeply unhappy.

The possibility of becoming a biological father recently presented itself. A lesbian couple, one a friend/colleague, are considering having a child and are looking for a potential sperm donor. They sort-of-suggested I might be interested. I mused on the idea, but my role would be limited to a sperm donor, and not a father. It would be a distant relationship with the child, and one I wouldn’t be comfortable with - though explaining it to my devoutly religious parents might be fun ;-).

You know that spring feeling, when you’re feeling especially sensual, the weather is warm, and the streets seem packed of gorgeous women (or men) and you see them everywhere. I have something similar now with babies (though without the lust, obviously).

I'm an only child and grew up moving a lot, I was very shy and never cared for kids, 'playing mommy', any of that. I met my current husband shortly after we turned 18 and we probably didn't talk about kids until we were 27, maybe a year before we finally got around to talking about marriage (a state I was less opposed to but didn't really give a shit about either). So I was getting no pressure from him or my family, thank goodness.

Careerwise, I started working in radio when I was 20 and moved up the ranks pretty quickly, eventually becoming program director of my station as well as holding down the morning show shift. This is an incredibly demanding and rewarding job, I really loved it and it consumed me utterly. I was on call 24/7 and usually worked 5a-5p. My boyfriend was working his way through graduate school and then law school.

Last year we got married, I quit my job, and we relocated to St. Louis where my husband had a well-paying job at a big law firm waiting for him. I wanted to take a break from radio and so got involved in politics, in time for the November 04 elections. I realized that as hard as I was working, it was nothing compared to how much I had been working in radio. I had time to breathe and relax and it wasn't the worst thing in the world (I had a bad habit of staying busy to avoid fretting about the future). I had a pregnancy scare and it occurred to me that it wouldn't be the worst thing ever to have a baby, but I was still glad when I got my period. I started noticing friends who had kids and were continuing to be human beings. Maybe more importantly, I finally had co-workers with kids--radio is very male-dominated and even the male DJs didn't often have kids.

After the 04 elections, I was pretty depressed that all my work didn't manage to get me a democratic president or governor, and I was unemployed for the first time since I was a teenager. I had a lot of time on my hands. I didn't want to get back into radio and so had to figure out what to do with my life. And for some reason I kept coming back to kids. Even though I'd never really pictured me with one, I do think it's a worthwhile endeavor to raise a child well. After scraping by on a DJ salary for years and helping my boyfriend with law school, I was in this ridiculous position of being able to take a job or not as I chose. I'm not the type of person who does well with sitting on the couch all day, but I wasn't sure what kind of job I could get, and at that time my job-hunting was not going well. If I was going to have a kid, I was really in the best situation possible.

So we started talking about it, my husband, bless his heart, has always said that ultimately it's my body and my decision but that he wasn't opposed to it. I was still pretty unconvinced but when I make a decision I like to go for it, so I decided to go to the doctor and get a physical, make sure everything's in good shape, and get on prenatal vitamins. This was in December; they like you to take prenatal vitamins for three months at least before you start trying to get pregnant.

I got a job in January, but of course we felt like now that we'd decided that it wouldn't be horrible to have a baby, we got pretty casual with birth control. We were pretty much just relying on the rhythm method and boy, after 11 years of condoms, it was the most awesome thing in the world. Sometime in March we got too careless, and I got a positive pregnancy test on April Fools Day.

Sometimes I still feel like I don't want anything to interfere with the nice little life my husband and I have, but sometimes I'm so thrilled, thinking about what a good dad he'll be. And being pregnant is a very interesting experience, much more stimulating to the right-brain than I thought it would be. I've been lucky to have an easy pregnancy, but even the not-so-enjoyable parts get picked over by my scientist brain. The nice thing about the whole process is that it happens so slowly, you get time to make your piece with this or that aspect of it.

So I don't know how much that'll help you, broody, but that's my story.

The only thing I can say here (and this is purely from my own experience, obv - other people's might well be different) is that you have absolutely no way of knowing, nor could you even begin to guess, the effect that motherhood will have on you until you do it for yourself. Huge gamble, I know. But looking after other people's children is simply not the same. It doesn't even come close. Looking after other people's children, no matter how sweet they are, feels no different from looking after someone's puppy for a weekend.

Nothing I had ever felt before prepared me for the emotions which washed over me when I held my babies in my arms from the very first time. There's a moment when your eyes lock, and it's as though you know each other. Deeply. Absolutely. I can't really explain it. It's like looking at yourself and your partner in a mirror, because your baby is some weird composite of the two of you, and your baby looks into your eyes and just connects in some way. Maybe this is Mother Nature's way of trying to ensure that new Mums don't freak out and abandon their newborns all over the place, I don't know. But it's like a superglue bond is formed, the like of which you will never experience with any other partner or friend.

I have two young daughters now, and I won't pretend that it's all been plain sailing. When they were tiny and teething, there were times they wouldn't sleep and I was so tired after spending all night trying to soothe them that I didn't know what day it was. But I have never for one moment resented them, or felt they hindered me in any way, or regretted that I chose to be a mother. In fact, my only regret would probably be that I didn't start earlier, and have more of them :)

Having children has enriched my life immeasurably. The love between me and my children is unconditional and knows no bounds; it's a love which I didn't know I was capable of, and I'm a much much better person for it.

I am so sad for you, broody. And for your wife :(

It also might intensify it. I dunno. It seems to help my brother though.

As for relieving broody feelings, I don't know. I still don't like other people's kids!

I wasn't saying it in response to your answer, penelope. Broody had said that they'd looked after his wife's delightful nieces in his bid to see if it made her feel any more well-disposed towards having children around, but that it hadn't convinced her.

but nothing anyone says or does is yet convincing me. at the age of 30, i remain resolute. many of my friends have children; i'm an uncle and a godfather (to the same child) and am due to become an uncle all over again later this week. i have to admit - and call me an unfeeling bastard if you want - that i'm not excited at all. i sincerely hope everything goes well for my sister-in-law, but the prospect of another baby being born does zip. the way i try to explain it to people is it's like there must be a little part of my brain missing: the part that compels most people to feel some sense of soppiness towards children. show me any kind of baby animal (or indeed most adult animals) and my heart melts; show me a baby human and i go "meh".

mrs fiendish and i have discussed this at length, and she understands the strength of my feelings. luckily, at the moment she has no desire for children either. however, she absolutely refuses to rule them out in the future. so there is a chance that at some point e could be in something of a dilemma.

so what i decided a year or so ago is: never say never. i really can't see it happening, but if it meant so much to mrs f - if she really, really felt her life wouldn't be complete without a kid; if it was the most important thing to her in the world; if the desire overcame everything else ... well, what else could i do?

perhaps this is the key point. desire for a child is an active, consuming thing; desire not to have a child is basically passive, an avoidance of action rather than action. (this is arguable - i know, i've argued it - but i'm trying to be reasonable here.) and with that in mind, it seems fair for it to be the "passive" partner who agrees to succumb to the wishes of the other one, because ultimately their desire is more consuming.

if your wife is anything like me, talking about and spending time with other people's children will only make her even more opposed. this has to be about you, your relationship and your future, and you have to make that clear to her. it's not about desire to be like other people or try something you think might be nice: it's about you.

how you convince her of that, i don't know, but i guess what i'm saying is that constantly trying to point out how wonderful children are will probably only put her off further. my mum in particular is desperate for us to have kids, and she winds me up something rotten by going on about it. the only thing that could possibly convince me is mrs fiendish. put it this way: if she said "it's have a child or lose me", i'd choose the child.

god, i really don't know if this is going to be helpful or not. i hope so. and i really hope you can work this out.

I think a woman not wanting kids is perhaps something deep-seated and very different from a man's passive avoidance, although of course I don't deny that some men have stronger feelings.

not-goodwin - I think doing what you want when you want all the time is overrated.

This is so very key. As someone who is female and also doesnt want kids, I can't stress enough that for some of us women, that urge, that biology, it just is not there. It never comes. It wont change. I'm 34 and it never has for me. I think my niece and nephew are great fun, but it didnt make me clucky being around close family children. I really feel I should say that for some of us, it just never comes into the picture and all the "you'd change your mind if you had them"'s is just not helpful at all, sadly.

It has nothing to do with selfishness or money or lifestyle - it just is. I am not on this earth to go forth and multiply. I dunno why, but I know in my deepest heart I am not :/

Dr C, I know what you’re saying, but I don’t mean watching my favourite tv show or wanting to go out on the piss whenever I want. I was referring to bigger things like I’m looking at moving down south, London/ Brighton, and only having to think of myself is handy to say the least. If I had children, it obviously wouldn’t be as simple.

it ain't that bad is it?

Thats as may be but Ive known all my life so far I dont want kids. In about 10 years I wont be able to have any anyway. It is never even a "maybe" for me. Not ever. I dont know how else I can underline how definite an understanding that is in me!

so what i decided a year or so ago is: never say never. i really can't see it happening, but if it meant so much to mrs f - if she really, really felt her life wouldn't be complete without a kid; if it was the most important thing to her in the world; if the desire overcame everything else ... well, what else could i do?

I always wonder how people who don't want children but still have them for their partners will treat their children. I'm not saying you'll abuse them in any way,but I would fear myself if I am like you: not loving them enough. I'm probably simplistic in my way of thinking here. So sorry if I offended you! I think it's probably my inferiority complex acting up: I love children (my future children and others) so much, I want them to have a *perfect* childhood. I've seen what abuse can do. :-(

Anthony, I'm sure you'd make a good dad. I look at my father, having been abused horribly, and see how good he is at parenting. It wasn't always easy - having to tackle his own past abuse - but it made him realize even better how much love is needed. Here it's now possible for holebi's (homo/lesbian/bisexuals) to adopt children. I think that's great news.

not offended at all, nathalie: i mean, i worry about that too. would i care enough? would my children grow up lacking in paternal love?

that said: dr c's interesting and thought-provoking comments remind me of what my dad says (sorry dr c, don't want to make you feel old!) about when my parents had me: he wasn't particularly buoyed by the prospect during my mum's pregnancy, but the moment i came along he was totally smitten. (well: somebody has to be.) and i think my parents are wonderful; i'm lucky to have always had a fantastic relationship with them (usual teenage fights notwithstanding).

Of course often everything does not work out right and you do not want to be near your parents. I have an extremely bad temper and have been known, when premenstrual or otherwise very upset, to shout at my dogs and crash around the house and generally scare the bejesus out of everyone. I feel bad enough on the occasions when I do it to the dogs, but there's no way I could inflict that on a child.

Also, I'm too old now, I'm not healthy enough and doubt I ever will be, and I just can't be arsed. It does seem kind of sad, because Bloke would make a fantastic father - he is interested in kids, has energy for them, and just loves the little dotes - but it's not for me, I don't think, and so not for us. I don't think I could be one of those people who'd do it for my partner.

Having said that, if by some freak accident I do get pregnant, I will do my very best to be a good mother.

Have any of you had this conversation, one wants children the other doesn’t. if so, how did it go?

See above.

If you remain convinced kids aren't for you then I'd suggest being very clear about this, before you embark on a serious long-term relationship. You may risk damaging the relationship but at least you both then know where you stand on the issue.

I have a guy now I am very happy with, totally someone who I could spend my life with - we're a team, hes my best friend, we are completely and utterly aligned on everything... he wants kids even less than I do!

It might also be worth noting I have also been pregant once before - by accident - and no, even then I did not waver in my calm (if rather grim) decision to... well, deal with it. I didnt regret or lament that decision at all. I'd even had that "what-if" resolved in my mind since my late teens!

I'm practical, if maybe a little cold, I dunno.

It's like trying to convince vegetarians they'd be so much happier if they'd just eat a cheeseburger.

This just does not sound right to me.

Seconded! Actually, it's not so much that I "don't like" other people's kids; I like my friends' and relatives' kids, and can appreciate their parental joys and challenges much better. I just still don't coo over random children at Target or on the street.

I'm one of those people who thought he'd be childless by choice. Never did I expect to actually have a child, and never did I expect to adore her as much as I do.

Jeez... I would never do that. Pork loin. Veal, maybe.

I've reached that point where I now realise that children will never happen for me. Odd feeling.

I wonder though, how many of the people 10 years ago on this thread changed their mind? (not begging for responses, I understand not everyone would want to discuss here)