The nature of political protest in britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/dec/11/kingsnorth-green-banksy-saboteur

^^^^ this dude rules

fucking bourgie student types. protest should be positive and direct action should be witty, not primal. i will expand on this.

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no
3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

now let me establish that the tuition price hike is a fucking disgrace but we should concentrate not on that but on the possibilities of education in this country

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these. put the lectures online. open the libraries. orient the courses entirely towards dissertations and theses. destroy the exam mentality. do the same for A-levels. allow free access to knowledge.

science degrees: the students attend science faculties and housing is provided for them. by the age of 18 they know what sort of science faculty they would prefer but they can still transfer.

any student can do a minor degree in a different subject. lecturers and academics are available for meeting, as long as there's a genuine passion.

students live independently among the people. they work part-time or they receive student welfare. campuses are an outdated and polarising conceit. those who choose not to be students are in the same situation and lead similar lives. university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

all of this is idealistic and 'crazy' sure but only by suggesting what we really want are we going to be in any way persuasive

anyhow, the protest should have flowed naturally from a less controllable start-point. start it on westminster bridge. peacefully block traffic outside the houses of parliament. peacefully resist police intervention. repeatedly state one's aims and ask politely to speak to someone in charge who can help. if the request is not met, firmly restate the request. do not move, but do not grow violent. accept that you may be mown down by the state. accept that if this were to happen, you will have won.

one day the entire country will refuse to repay its mortgages or loans and that day will see the nation reach a higher level of enlightenment

speak your brains

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

whoa whoa, let's not get carried away

anyway, my words aren't enough. let's get the Voice of British Youth Left on the case, just for NRQ

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2010/11/young-scary-future-riot-crowd

Not challoping here, but that's a good piece.

3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 4:04 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

specify

Louis - being earnest here - do you think the university system you are describing (in the humanities, I don't know about anything else) would actually further the study of the humanities, or increase the typical level of understanding achieved by current humanities students? Why?

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these. put the lectures online. open the libraries. orient the courses entirely towards dissertations and theses. destroy the exam mentality. do the same for A-levels. allow free access to knowledge.

that's all fine. we have free access to knowledge. what we don't have is supervision, contact with other learners, deadlines. you need to be able to write an essay before you can write a dissertation.

students live independently among the people. they work part-time or they receive student welfare.

again, contact with other learners, collective enterprise, all of this matters.

campuses are an outdated and polarising conceit.

you're an outdated and polarising conceit.

those who choose not to be students are in the same situation and lead similar lives.

oil rig workers are not in the same situation as students

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

it's 'a bit of both'

anyhow, the protest should have flowed naturally from a less controllable start-point. start it on westminster bridge. peacefully block traffic outside the houses of parliament. peacefully resist police intervention. repeatedly state one's aims and ask politely to speak to someone in charge who can help. if the request is not met, firmly restate the request. do not move, but do not grow violent. accept that you may be mown down by the state. accept that if this were to happen, you will have won.

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 4:18 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark

'stuff happens' - donald rumsfeld

srsly, what is this 'should' shit? this sounds like a radiohead video anyway.

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these
science degrees: the students attend science faculties and housing is provided

As a former science ("science") student whose friend group was largely composed of humanities students, I weep for your vision of the future

only by suggesting what we really want are we going to be in any way persuasive

LJ, I think the "we" in that sentence is optimistic. Who wants this?

university is about studying, not about buying a degree to look sharp on the CV and relinquishing one's adult responsibilities to society.

university is also about completing a bunch of tasks to a certain level of competence, with a certain depth of understanding and analysis, with a certain regularity.

specify

see: the benefits legislation, imposition of war economy, difficulty of living independently etc

oh lordy it's getting hot in here

also

protest should be positive and direct action should be witty, not primal.

1. fuck 'should'

2. breaking the windows of a building has been a sign of community disapproval in england since the 16th century

As a former science ("science") student whose friend group was largely composed of humanities students, I weep for your vision of the future

Why? Students of all kinds will be living around each other. Even better, they'll be living among full-time workers or unemployed, so there won't be a town/gown differential or stigma.

tbh lj's proposals sound more like 'abolish universities' than 'don't raise tuition fees'

stefan collini's lrb article last week p much nailed it -- and he kind of says, yes, ok, maybe we don't need *this* many residential/intensive/old-style-but-new universities, but that the expansion of post-school education is a good thing

but i think louis is out demolish a good thing out of guilt that it is the possession of a small elite, less so now than before, but even still, iow the university system of fifty years ago

extending that good thing would have been too expensive for the state, and what we have had since 1992 is a two-or-more-tier system. the question is, how do you extend the good thing -- insofar as you can -- not how do you tear everything down.

imo cutting all state money for teaching and imposing a massive debt burden on many thousands of people who really won't benefit from a university education (leaving aside the arguments made by collini about the rationale for the whole thing, with which i agree) is bad policy, and if a few windows get smashed, fuck it.

xpost. You don't think they're protesting those things? A demo this big accommodates lots of causes and frustrations, especially if they're already interconnected, as these are. The impetus might be tuition fees but I don't believe that's the only thing they were angry about.

see: the benefits legislation, imposition of war economy, difficulty of living independently etc

imposition of war economy happened in about 1916 iirc; yes the benefits legislation sux but that doesn't make this protest irrelevant: people on benefits have it easier than most of the world's population; not rly sure about last point -- id guess people on bennies are not independent? -- but make a banner and we'll see

Why? Students of all kinds will be living around each other. Even better, they'll be living among full-time workers or unemployed, so there won't be a town/gown differential or stigma.

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 1:48 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark

im a townie and frankly the students next door can eat one, no fuck that, two

though other students (some of them [crush thread territory]) im ok with

Louis - being earnest here - do you think the university system you are describing (in the humanities, I don't know about anything else) would actually further the study of the humanities, or increase the typical level of understanding achieved by current humanities students? Why?

It would ensure that those who really wanted to study humanities would do so, and that the study could be as solitary or communal as they wanted. As long as they have contacts who set them tasks and suggest reading, they could still do their stuff to a high level. The contents of any lecture are also found in books. Knowledge must be freely available.

Ah, Dorian, well yes, other things were being protested, of course, but then why define the protest towards a certain target? I was busy that day but otherwise I'd have certainly gone. I think the nature of protest needs better clarity though.

Some of what LJ describes sounds a lot like what the OU already does. They're obviously going to be winners out of the proposed legislation, maybe now is the time for them to up their game, expand and market themselves more towards young people.

That Collini essay is indeed excellent, and it's freely avialble online too: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n21/stefan-collini/brownes-gamble

xpost Ha, yes, students are intrinsically annoying to non-students wherever they live - keep 'em on the campuses out of harm's way.

this 'should' shit is my promotion of ideas based around impulses I have that I am throwing out there - it is not an absolute imperative and painting me as some sort of oppressor is ludicrous

I think students ought to (there) work part-time anyway, if only for 2 or 3 hours per day.

If they can, obviously. Don't wanna be forcing compulsory labour now!

It would ensure that those who really wanted to study humanities would do so, and that the study could be as solitary or communal as they wanted. As long as they have contacts who set them tasks and suggest reading, they could still do their stuff to a high level. The contents of any lecture are also found in books. Knowledge must be freely available.

you don't need universities at all on this basis. and perhaps they're overrated a bit, but they are also a place where new memes are created, not just where old ones are re-read. anyway, no, study cannot be as solitary as you want, at university -- part of the point is that you are in a community of learning, and need the input of others -- in complex ways -- to get to a high level.

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no

Am thinking that the day of direct action planned for the 24th is possibly going to be a combination of these two things.

2. breaking the windows of a building has been a sign of community disapproval in england since the 16th century

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

Students have been running poorly-attended, friendly-wendly, sit down protests for ten years now and while this is all well and good, the media, the government, businesses etc don't bat an eye-lid because, well a few people walking about with placards is hardly people power and can easily be ignored. When I attended university, student fees marches and anti-war marches were considered something of a joke, even among students, and I remember finding this very frustrating.

Whether smashing up a building was the right way to go about things is obviously debatable, but one can't deny it's brought attention to the subject for three days now - something peaceful protest would never do.

Also, fuck tory scum, yeah?

i only go to these things for the violence anyway

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm - no
2. waging random violence - no
3. turning up only to protest your own careerist concerns and letting the government fuck you in countless other, far more pernicious ways - no

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm = mass gathering within established legal framework, following known tradition, emphasis on continuity, legitimacy, common law of the land
2. what 'random violence' are you even talking about: all of the violence we have so far heard of has had very clear symbolic meaning, even when as w throwing stuff off the roof of a tower it's a) a dick move and b) counterproductive in that the likelihood you'll
3. it is natural that protest should coalesce around the nearest most obvious thing - that does not mean that it is the only thing under protest. (riots trigger by a rise in the price of butter go on to attack mills where the flour is adulterated e.g.)

* triggered

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

― acoleuthic, Friday, November 12, 2010 1:58 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

'you probably think this protest is about you'

making the political the personal

my first reaction to seeing footage was 'cooooool' but in hindsight it leaves me feeling empty

why?

ugh that above was 'in that the likelihood you'll hit one of your own is q high'

i think smashing the skulls of police officers is 'a bit much' in this context btw

imo cutting all state money for teaching and imposing a massive debt burden on many thousands of people who really won't benefit from a university education (leaving aside the arguments made by collini about the rationale for the whole thing, with which i agree) is bad policy, and if a few windows get smashed, fuck it.

...perhaps they're overrated a bit, but they are also a place where new memes are created, not just where old ones are re-read. anyway, no, study cannot be as solitary as you want, at university -- part of the point is that you are in a community of learning, and need the input of others -- in complex ways -- to get to a high level.

Please don't get me wrong. I think further education is incredibly valuable for many skeins of learning, and that these measures are atrocious, even despair-worthy. They show that the government is only concerned with the business of learning, not the cultural upkeep. And yes, I agree that some learning is best done in a communal spirit (although I think the students themselves ought to arrange this, and not entirely within the bounds of their subject; literature specialists should share with biochemists and philosophers). I think there should be tools to arrange this communality without confining students within very narrow strictures which can be taxed and taxed and taxed at the oppressor's discretion. Obviously, some organisation is needed. However, when it's ridden roughshod over like this I understand and share people's anger. I just think that violent protest is not as good an option as stoic protest - being the irritating prick who restates the desire to speak to whomever is in charge - and being the one with ideas to advance the cause rather than fight the status quo.

literature specialists should share with biochemists

i guess i ought to admire your idealism

I think there should be tools to arrange this communality without confining students within very narrow strictures which can be taxed and taxed and taxed at the oppressor's discretion.

dude. dude. really. dude.

"Today's top headline: Group of well-turned out students knock politely on door of number 10 asking to discuss student fees hike with David Cameron. They are told he's not in and to come back next week. More on this later..."

how do you suggest students self-organise to teach themselves what they do not yet know?

it's all in the books

why?

feels like so much expended testosterone and that they will all go home and move on - nothing has been etched - it's cosmetic

1. gathering in one place with banners and slogans and allowing the police to dictate the parameters of your swarm = mass gathering within established legal framework, following known tradition, emphasis on continuity, legitimacy, common law of the land
2. what 'random violence' are you even talking about: all of the violence we have so far heard of has had very clear symbolic meaning, even when as w throwing stuff off the roof of a tower it's a) a dick move and b) counterproductive in that the likelihood you'll
3. it is natural that protest should coalesce around the nearest most obvious thing - that does not mean that it is the only thing under protest. (riots trigger by a rise in the price of butter go on to attack mills where the flour is adulterated e.g.)

1. Yeah, I'm saying it doesn't go far enough. I think protests should be mutable and intelligent, not ceremonial. Meet in one place, yes, but adapt and set the agenda. Engage with the oppressor. Don't wait to be dispersed. Go where it is inconvenient for you to go. Sit across the road. Block things. Ask and ask and ask.

2. The smashing of windows = yes, a statement of disapproval albeit a very general one. Lighting of small fires = another statement of disapproval. Throwing stuff off buildings = 'fuck you!'. I wasn't there but it seems to me like the impulse was 'screw these guys let's trash their place' rather than 'screw these guys let's show them we won't be fucking moved and that we are right'. I really do think that this violence is while well-intentioned, gratuitous in its execution and unlikely to truly rattle anyone.

3. Fair point. There is a lot to protest about. I wish there were a permanent state of protest.

how do you suggest students self-organise to teach themselves what they do not yet know?

Well, there's SOME guidance from the learned! There has to be. Perhaps the existing system does this best but I still don't like how many students are sectioned-off, graded and then fed back into the corporate system as if learning never happened, after being lumbered with enormous debt.

"Today's top headline: Group of well-turned out students knock politely on door of number 10 asking to discuss student fees hike with David Cameron. They are told he's not in and to come back next week. More on this later..."

"Then they sit down outside Number 10 with linked arms and do not move. There is awkwardness."

"...as fellow students stand and jeer at their peers waiting for Cameron to return from China".

"We can wait."

"...rest of country remains unmoved".

I'm going to read this Collini article, mind.

LJ I guess you don't remember Greenham Common. Questionable as to whether it achieved anything.

(aside from keeping the issue in the public consciousness. altho perhaps mainly in the consciousness of those who cared about it in the first place.)

Questionable as to whether it achieved anything.

The missiles have gone haven't they? What more do you want!

Jeez, some people...

ha i forgot about that!

I don't know. Just seems to me that disaffection with the Tories could be manifested in much better ways than small-scale cosmetic violence. I'm talking disobedience on a grander, more intelligent scale.

Trashing the windows of every building in the City of London would be a major enterprise and one I'd support, but you need massive numbers and organisation and willpower for that. This felt like a cheap shot.

The only real way forward for these protests as I see it to forge strong links with other groups that are affected by the cuts and coordinate multilateral action.

Trashing the windows of every building in the City of London would be a major enterprise and one I'd support

o_O tbh

The only real way forward for these protests as I see it to forge strong links with other groups that are affected by the cuts and coordinate multilateral action.

Yes yes yes. No longer the smash-happy student strawman. It's the fucking People of Britain coming at you and making life awkward.

feels like so much expended testosterone and that they will all go home and move on - nothing has been etched - it's cosmetic

& the window can be replaced and all but it's still a hugely strong image and the memory of it sticks with us - the protestors have committed violence against the physical representation of the conservative party (or in 2009 'the banks') without attacking a person.

I think protests should be mutable and intelligent, not ceremonial. Meet in one place, yes, but adapt and set the agenda. Engage with the oppressor. Don't wait to be dispersed. Go where it is inconvenient for you to go. Sit across the road. Block things. Ask and ask and ask.

why do you think people do not do this?

(tbh the recent oxford protest i think did this? but w/e it was in oxford no-one cares)

do you know about Faslane 365? was it in the news? did it achieve anything?

humanities degrees: you do not need the student to attend university for these. put the lectures online. open the libraries. orient the courses entirely towards dissertations and theses. destroy the exam mentality. do the same for A-levels. allow free access to knowledge.

This is fucking stupid and completely misreads everything about studying in the humanities. In fact it strikes me as coming from the same sort of attitude as those middle-class children who dicked about at university who go on to say universities are just for middle-class children to dick about at. Just because YOU didn't see the value in it doesn't mean it's inherently valueless. Other people on the thread have pointed out that communal learning is vital for the humanities, and I would go further and suggest that in such communal discussion you actually learn MORE than attempting isolated study.

The only real way forward for these protests as I see it to forge strong links with other groups that are affected by the cuts and coordinate multilateral action.

Yes, this is necessary. But it's also being done.

Other people on the thread have pointed out that communal learning is vital for the humanities, and I would go further and suggest that in such communal discussion you actually learn MORE than attempting isolated study.

yes and I've said that there would be communal discussion! just that the students would organise it themselves and not wait to be arranged into preset classes. you're totally misreading my intentions.

Yes, this is necessary. But it's also being done.

Where? Show me that Britain has a credible left-wing protest movement and I'll be there.

I mean, I'm not fostering my own thoughts on protest in isolation, am I? They wouldn't be challenged, modified or qualified. I'm doing it here, in a communal environment, where others' input is vital. Such will be the case among humanities students. They will be affiliated with a university but they will hang out with other students in their daily lives and in their bedrooms, not in seminar rooms. I really think this is important.

yes and I've said that there would be communal discussion! just that the students would organise it themselves and not wait to be arranged into preset classes. you're totally misreading my intentions.

HOW WOULD THIS HAPPEN? You really think that post A-Level, actually no, you've said A-Levels would also work in the same way, so post-GCSE, a bunch of 16 year olds with no previous experience in assembling an autonomous learning group would just automatically be able to work out the best way of doing this? And even in the best-case scenario, what you essentially have is a seminar, except one that has no funding, and no person experienced in the field to help guide conversation?

who said that the students all had to be the same age?

They will be affiliated with a university but they will hang out with other students in their daily lives and in their bedrooms, not in seminar rooms. I really think this is important.

They already do this, but they get seminars too. And, you know, maybe that's more useful for people who aren't immediately sparkling and popular? Oh no, I forgot, you've never experienced this in your life and can't believe that such people might exist.

Yes, this is necessary. But it's also being done.

Where? Show me that Britain has a credible left-wing protest movement and I'll be there.

I didn't say that it had 'a credible left-wing protest movement', I said that people who are being affected by the cuts are banding together against them. I have been on one such march in Brighton.

who said that the students all had to be the same age?

― acoleuthic

So this is your main problem with my rebuttal of your idea? Really? Okay, so where do the 16 year olds who have finished GCSEs go to meet the older students? They just wander around until they bump into them?

fair point though - perhaps the job of the tutor could be to match up students loosely, connect students from far and wide who are interested in the same things, suggest that they meet, have occasional group tutorials. this only works after the student has specialised, but in fairness, the basics can be dealt with more mundanely, in localised groups. idk.

Louis, love you to bits, can't be arced to read whole thread, but if you think that a; campuses are over, and b; university is about studying (& that all studying can be done alone & remotely), you don't really understand universities.

Okay, so where do the 16 year olds who have finished GCSEs go to meet the older students?

They get in touch with tutors eminent in x subject area and ask them 'who is interested in x?'. Tutor gives an email address. Students meet and exchange ideas. Maybe I'm being ridiculous.

Who is this mythical tutor? A teaching fellow? An early career researcher? A senior lecturer? A PhD student? A subject chair? Or a new pastoral invention? When do they research, when do they publish, when do they do outreach, when do they commercialise IP?

what is in it for the tutor? are they getting paid? are they getting paid just for their role as facilitator, or does the pay enable them to also study?

They get in touch with tutors eminent in x subject area and ask them 'who is interested in x?'. Tutor gives an email address. Students meet and exchange ideas.

I thought you were also advocating humanities students mixing with biochemists etc? Surely this goes against that completely?

Maybe I'm being ridiculous.

OTM

I'll come out and say it; I hope Browne goes through. I think if universities are sensible, responsibly run, it's a wonderful scheme. I don't think a higher education is a right. I don't think everyone should be able to go. But I think Browne will actually, for those sensible, responsibly run universities, make HE fairer and more accessible.

YES Nick I know universities are formative and supportive cultures for young adults etc etc but I am saying this can equally be done without campuses. Possibly. You're all helping my arguments.

Mythical tutor is someone who has demonstrably written on subject x, maybe even been published. Student is pointed in their direction by schoolteachers, the internet, their parents, anyone.

The tutor does it because they want more people to understand and engage with x. They are paid by the system for their active role in tutorials and university organisation.

Students can ALSO meet with fellow-students from different subject areas.

xposts I thought tutors' jobs was to teach, not to act like some social network nanny... Sorry Louis, but it's widely agreed there's much more to going to university and being a student than sitting in your room and reading books, with the odd meeting in the SU bar to compare notes.

dammit why did I speculate about education rather than just talk about the nature of protest

Good universities are only 30% about undergraduates, Louis.

Also, WTF is a tutor? Do any of you know anything about higher education academic job descriptions?

it's widely agreed there's much more to going to university and being a student than sitting in your room and reading books, with the odd meeting in the SU bar to compare notes.

University isn't a universal thing and >50% of British people get by without it.

xpost semantics, semantics.

You cannot teach any technical, science, engineering, computer studies, music, drama, etc etc etc without campuses. You cannot have any local knowledge base to benefit regional economies. You cannot incubate businesses. You cannot research. You cannot have any kind of student unionization or self-regulated economy.

You cannot teach any technical, science, engineering, computer studies, music, drama, etc etc etc without campuses.

yeah I said this, sort of

xxpost louis, what's that got to do with anything? of course not everyone goes to uni, but if they want to, and are interested and believe they will benefit from studying, they shouldn't be put off because they can't afford it.

No societies, no sports, no charity work, no student journalism.

they shouldn't be put off because they can't afford it

YES I KNOW I AGREE

Nick you can have societies if you're AFFILIATED with a university! You just don't have to live on-site!

Charlie, under the Browne review EVERYONE WHO GETS THE GRADES can afford tom go to university because, get this, you pay the fees AFTERWARDS based on your means, and any fees over £6k have to go towards funding scholarships and bursaries. I would be better off under Browne than I was going to university in 1998.

Generally only freshers live onsite anyway at most universities; are you advocating living nearby or serious distance learning?

Live...nearby? Whatever's feasible. Student benefit would be a good idea here. I'm rambling and I think I need a nap.

LJ's proposals takings some direct hits to the glazing itt

Also, Louis, if you just want to do a remote study humanities degree, the Open University exists.

The tutor does it because they want more people to understand and engage with x. They are paid by the system for their active role in tutorials and university organisation.

Yeah, you would have precisely 0 tutors on this basis. You would also have 0 specialists, as none of them could afford to research anything.

I'll come out and say it; I hope Browne goes through. I think if universities are sensible, responsibly run, it's a wonderful scheme. I don't think a higher education is a right. I don't think everyone should be able to go. But I think Browne will actually, for those sensible, responsibly run universities, make HE fairer and more accessible.

I do agree that not everyone should go to university - it's simply not necessary. Unfortunately my own reformation ideas rely on a parity of esteem that British society just doesn't seem capable of, so let's not even go into those. However, under the proposals most universities will crumble, as their funding is going to be slashed into tiny pieces. It won't be an option to not charge the highest fees, because no university will be able to afford to run if they don't. With regard to equal access, I've heard them say that some very poor kids won't have to pay - I'm unsure if this is actually true, but even if so, it will be a tiny tokenistic number, and will still wipe out the lower-middle class population of universities. The fact that the maintenance loans will no longer be means-tested is meaningless - not everyone needs it, and it still won't be much for those who do. The rise in maintenance grants is pitiful, and won't be of much comfort to those who are faced with well over 20k of debt by the time they leave university.

why do you think people do not do this?

(tbh the recent oxford protest i think did this? but w/e it was in oxford no-one cares)

do you know about Faslane 365? was it in the news? did it achieve anything?

because they don't have the energy or the time? well maybe they will after these cuts come into play.

i don't know about faslane 365 - was it a year-long protest? one day occupying a REALLY awkward place would do more than a year in an out-of-the-way institution

emil.y I think that specialists and tutors should be heavily subsidised by the government...

Nick, the OU was mentioned upthread...

EVERYONE WHO GETS THE GRADES can afford tom go to university because, get this, you pay the fees AFTERWARDS

Uh, this is not part of the Browne report. This is the system that was already in place. And it was already horrible.

Unfortunately my own reformation ideas rely on a parity of esteem that British society just doesn't seem capable of, so let's not even go into those.

Aw let's hear 'em! I agree with the rest of your post, strongly. I also hope you understand that I am throwing a LOT of stuff at the wall here and that I am open to rebuttal and reconsideration.

l0u1s, faslane 365 was a year-long protest against Trident - it was the kind of cheerful sit-down-and-get-arrested-for-breach-of-the-peace protest you are advocating, and oh look no one even knew it was happening and oh look Trident got renewed.

under the Browne review EVERYONE WHO GETS THE GRADES can afford tom go to university because, get this, you pay the fees AFTERWARDS based on your means, and any fees over £6k have to go towards funding scholarships and bursaries.

but isn't the problem with this that under the planned spending cuts universities won't be able to cover their teaching budgets if they charge fees under £6k?

Wow this is crazy ballooning of a thread that stems from a manifesto post written at 4.30am, presumably while drunk.

Shit went montgolfier

Emil.y; yes, that is the current situation, and Browne raises the threshold for repayments from £15k to £25k. Only 30% will pay back the full amount: about the same proportion will pay back almost nothing.

Correct, most universities will need to charge at least £6k to cover teaching costs. But you know what? Universities can raise money in other ways and use it to subsidize teaching or improve student experience.

and oh look no one even knew it was happening

because they didn't do it right in the faces of the authorities! attack the brainstem, hit central london. at the very least, the protests this week did so.

wasn't drunk, just tired and grumpy and completely unsure of how to change the education system but mindful that I'd need some form of idea if I was to justify my 'bring solutions, not gripes' rhetoric

the fever dreams of the big society

The Big Society is a bullshit Tory cost-cutting scheme, but the idea of people caring about their community and environment and looking after it is a nice socialist ideal, surely?

i was referring to lj's "do it yourself" university idea

LJ, personal question. Didn't you get anything out of university? There's so much more to it - infinitely more - than your alternative suggests. The way you make it sound, my English Lit course (of vital importance to the nation's economy, natch) would be replaced with an upmarket book group.

It's kind of an unfair pile-on from what I can see here, from what I can see what LJ is going through is pretty much what happens to lots of left-leaning graduates who haven't moved into full-time work yet. A resentment of higher education as a conduit to several decades of "rat race", "corporate machine" etc coupled with a not-quite-contradictory frustration at not yet having a job despite your degree. The current economic situation can surely only make this worse than it was nine or ten years ago when I graduated.

(LJ if I've missed something and you do now have a job then I apologise for misreading)

That's what I'm asking about. Not intended as a pile-on on my part, because I like LJ's tone - open and inquisitive rather than defensive. I just wonder whether this kind of drastic idea stems from personal experience.

I love Louis to bits and hope I'm not seen as piling-on at all; I'm all for many of his ideas regarding protesting, and have been left feeling embarrassed by a lot of the student protestors who've actually opened their mouths on this.

At the same time, I work in HE administration, and specifically communications and research, so when people start banging on about universities when they only know about undergraduate experience I feel the need to get involved.

yeah well that is fair. most problems with universities would be solved with a strong government subsidy.

matt i am on the cusp of sealing a work-from-home job haha

what did I get out of university? i grew up (a little). i made a couple of friends. i read some good literature (mostly for my dissertation, hence my idea that dissertations are more valuable than exam cramming). i accrued £££ of debt. i realised that postgrads are generally doing the really valuable work. i spent a lot of time on worthless, often alcoholic distractions. drinking culture is a fucking abysmal thing.

There was that wank-off thing, too.

finding myself increasingly into the idea of people going to university at 21 instead of 18. have the chance to work and earn money first, probably reduce the amount of "wasted" degrees/lower grades in the process. i guess it depends on just how much employers value a fresh graduate with a first or 2:1 but little if any (not necessarily relevant to the job directly) working experience.

I agree, but I'm not sure if there are enough of those pre-uni types of job to go round. Genuinely no idea on that - is it still easy for students to find summer work?

I agree to an extent. Even a year out working is better than going totally fresh from sixth form or college. When I was in the library mature students always had better work ethics and practices, and therefore even the less naturally smart ones got more out of the academic side.

We had a guy work in our office for a year after having been in the army for seven years from age 17; he's gone on to do a history degree at Bristol now and imcan see him doing amazingly well.

well yeah but that relates to 'alcoholic distractions' haha

i may be projecting a bit when i say that a lot of undergraduate time is wasted or ill-directed. sure i got involved in a lot of societies but they were insular things. my experiences felt VERY transient - perhaps they built who i am now - perhaps they delayed who i am now. certainly plenty of undergrads, especially in scientific or practical courses, devoted a lot of their lives and their minds to bettering themselves through study. i get the feeling that unless you are interested enough to take it to postgrad, you shouldn't have to complete a course if you're going through the motions, and you should merely submit what you have done in the form of a small thesis. there should be a better and more fluid drop-out mechanism. there shouldn't be financial or societal binds keeping you going through the motions. this is why university tuition should be subsidised by the government. it should be entirely a fluid and optional thing, and students should only do it if they have a passion for a subject.

finding work is hell right now, you know that

wish I'd gone to uni at 21 rather than 18 TBF.

I went at 20. eh. wasn't any more mature, didn't knuckle down any harder.

Depends where you are. After three years of being stuck, both Em and I have got new jobs this year. I appreciate its difficult, but we both plugged away, applied for plenty of things, suffered lots of near misses, and eventually came out much better for it.

I wish I'd got involved in societies and student unions and journalism far more when I was at university as a student. I wrote more for a student paper as a librarian than as an undergraduate. Em feels the same; we both come from working-into-lower-middle class northerners-moved-down-south backgrounds, both first in the family to go to university, so neither of us had any kind of cultural preparation. We just didn't know that there was so much out there tomget involved with beyond your actual programme of study, and that this added value stuff couldmactually end up being far more important to your life after university than your actual degree. ILX probably had more influence on me getting my current job than my degree did.

that's probably a really good point; my work would have been much better if I'd started at 21 (having been ILX-hazed for god knows how long haha)

it should be entirely a fluid and optional thing, and students should only do it if they have a passion for a subject.

For this to work at all, you'd have to do away with the social/employer requirement for people with college degrees even if all it proves is that they could afford it/got scholarships/might have learned to finish busy-work on time. Because that's what most degrees are, right? And that's the only thing employers care about them for -- very frequently they don't actually relate to your work subject outside of tech/hard-science fields.

I wish more student-style societies existed outside of the university discourse, and continued beyond one's allotted university time! I also wish the time wasn't so allotted (as I say) and that exam culture was challenged save for in subjects where rote learning is necessary.

Laurel, you're preaching to the converted! I really, really don't like the degree -> employment transaction as it stands. It makes me wish I had no qualifications at all.

This is unworkable. What do you do with millions of underqualified 18-21 year-olds suddenly knocking around the system? What jobs are they supposed to do? And what happens to the other people who need those jobs but can't get them because the labour market is suddenly flooded with people who have just done their A-Levels?

I wish more student-style societies existed outside of the university discourse, and continued beyond one's allotted university time

There are loads of them, all over the part of London you live in.

link

Yeah but it's doubtful that whatever form of schooling precedes university actually prepares kids to go to work. My high school sure as hell didn't. So you'd have to reform the entirety of whatever is the equivalent of the high school system, too. xxxp

http://www.meetup.com

This is unworkable. What do you do with millions of underqualified 18-21 year-olds suddenly knocking around the system? What jobs are they supposed to do? And what happens to the other people who need those jobs but can't get them because the labour market is suddenly flooded with people who have just done their A-Levels?

Wahey, wages come right down, even maybe a new pre-uni minimum wage bracket. I could see the Tories running with this!

PUT THEM IN THE FUCKING ARMY, MATTHEW.

I'll come out and say it; I hope Browne goes through. I think if universities are sensible, responsibly run, it's a wonderful scheme. I don't think a higher education is a right. I don't think everyone should be able to go. But I think Browne will actually, for those sensible, responsibly run universities, make HE fairer and more accessible.

― Captain Ostensible (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 12, 2010 3:04 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

still getting to the bottom of this thread, but £27k debt? with even more interest than im paying (which is like 3.?%)? get tae fuck, that's straight bullshit. how will anyone afford to get the deposit necessary to secure themselves the six-figure debt which they will spend their best paying off, if they already owe £27k? it's basic maths, nick.

i get the feeling that unless you are interested enough to take it to postgrad, you shouldn't have to complete a course if you're going through the motions, and you should merely submit what you have done in the form of a small thesis.

You don't have to complete any course. Nobody's forcing you, and it's your own time you're wasting. I didn't realise I wanted to take it to postgrad until my third year, so don't devalue the rest of my experience, thanks. Seriously, you really are coming at it from the angle of 'I wasted my time so everyone else must be doing the same therefore the whole system is rubbish'. This simply isn't true. Obviously you say people in the sciences and practical courses might have been working hard, because that wasn't what you did - but fuck you very much, I worked hard too.

I also wish the time wasn't so allotted (as I say) and that exam culture was challenged save for in subjects where rote learning is necessary.

I do think that most humanities subjects should be weighted more heavily from the start towards essay-writing, although not all by a long shot - for instance I did both linguistics and mediaeval studies, many components of which needed a system to test one's capacity for retaining information. Also, exams shouldn't be eradicated - there was a noticeable shift towards essays as the years went on (and thus students got closer to being actual researchers/writers), but a lot of people relish the chance to display suppleness of mind and be able to react to other's ideas quickly. There's a definite split between 'exam people' and 'essay people' and the former shouldn't immediately be put at a disadvantage.

I'll say it again: the point of these LJ-rambles threads is that I am stupid and in need of education.

What do you do with millions of underqualified 18-21 year-olds suddenly knocking around the system? What jobs are they supposed to do? And what happens to the other people who need those jobs but can't get them because the labour market is suddenly flooded with people who have just done their A-Levels?

Wasn't it like this back when only the ultra-privileged elite went to university, rather than the slightly-privileged sort-of-elite? I think if students drop out en masse then it won't be a massive deal so long as they're not in debt. They can live with their parents or (get this) their employed friends and they can get benefits. But then I think the whole labour market is fucked as fucking fuck and that this won't be a problem in itself so much as indicative of an unworkable system.

It's not a debt like any other, Henry. Because it's not a fixed- amount, or even a fixed- amount with interest that you pay back. Thinking of it as a debt is the wrong way to go about it. On the wage I'm on now I'd be paying back less a month than I do now. Mortgage lenders won't consider it when weighing up whether to lend to you. Nit oaring it back because you don't earn enough wont affect your credit rating. Etc etc etc.

My first job after university, in 2002, paid me £10,500 a year to start with. Withninflation that would be, what, £14k now? Maybe not even that.

Please excuse my Steve Jobs related typos.

There's a definite split between 'exam people' and 'essay people' and the former shouldn't immediately be put at a disadvantage.

I've always been good at exams - but I feel it's easy to be good *enough* at an exam by having prepared answers and a fairly broad knowledge base - you don't need to focus intensely upon a detailed and structured and thoroughly-considered argument, which for me is at the heart of Humanities.

Seriously, you really are coming at it from the angle of 'I wasted my time so everyone else must be doing the same therefore the whole system is rubbish'. This simply isn't true. Obviously you say people in the sciences and practical courses might have been working hard, because that wasn't what you did - but fuck you very much, I worked hard too.

I think you're being a little harsh here. Well, extremely harsh. Yeah I could have worked harder (although I've made pains to suggest that I worked my arse off for my dissertation and thoroughly enjoyed the experience) but I'm more coming at it from the angle of 'time is wasted by concentrating on bad habits and broad rote learning' - I am suggesting that not ALL time is wasted, but that student lives will be more fulfilling if they work on their own projects and also within society at large in their daily lives. For me at least, undergraduacy felt a bit like an entertaining bubble. And yeah, obviously you did work hard - you're very knowledgeable and an asset to the education system. I'm saying that humanities degrees should ENCOURAGE hard work, rather than half-assing!

Wasn't it like this back when only the ultra-privileged elite went to university, rather than the slightly-privileged sort-of-elite?

Britain now isn't remotely comparable to Britain then. We had some industry for one thing.

ie a lot of the jobs they would have done don't exist any more.

Well, we need a new system now. One without so many fucking useless admin jobs.

I might just go and work on the railways. Is that allowed? Or do you have to pass a zillion safety tests first? Do you need a fucking degree in railway maintenance? Argh.

just set up your own informal railway working collective!

Louis a lot of your rhetoric is ostensibly coming from the left but veers very close to what the Tories think. Admin jobs are almost by definition not useless. No one employs data entry drones for shits and giggles.

I full support making degrees more difficult fwiw, but I doubt that's the problem with even a humanities degree at Oxbridge. LJ you didn't even do a course that required two or maybe four essays a term.

You'd be fine I'd you'd done engineering, Louis.

I kind of wish I'd done a business degree these days, working with the business school here. They seem to place far, far more emphasis on ideas and creativity than humanities or arts degrees.

Argh I am knackered and not expressing myself well. What I'm saying is the average humanities degree is considerably lower in terms of workload than one from Oxford or Cambridge.

One thing I'm unclear on - if you're on £22K a year, do you pay back the same percentage of your debt as someone who's on £100K a year? Or do you get a break?

I think if you're on £100k a year you pay it back much faster.

Its progressive, very much so.

The only thing I'm unclear on is that, if only 30% of peoplempay back the full £9k or whatever, where does the rest of the money come from? Government borrowing?

Actually if your on £22k a year don't pay backmany of it after Browne.

I feel it's easy to be good *enough* at an exam by having prepared answers and a fairly broad knowledge base - you don't need to focus intensely upon a detailed and structured and thoroughly-considered argument, which for me is at the heart of Humanities.

This definitely isn't true for any of the philosophy exams I sat, and doesn't ring true for many of the English exams I sat either, except for the couple that I already mentioned which were fairly anomalous.

Its progressive, very much so.

You forgot to say "fairness".

Louis a lot of your rhetoric is ostensibly coming from the left but veers very close to what the Tories think. Admin jobs are almost by definition not useless. No one employs data entry drones for shits and giggles.

fine, that was a strawman. my main point is that there aren't enough jobs and the jobs that there are, well, they're often seemingly pointless and soul-sapping in nature, plus they require 'experience'. we need more goddamn jobs! and if they're not there, we need more goddamn benefits. the youth needs a safety net just as the elderly do.

I full support making degrees more difficult fwiw, but I doubt that's the problem with even a humanities degree at Oxbridge. LJ you didn't even do a course that required two or maybe four essays a term.

on the flipside, you'll be amazed how half-assed an essay can be if you're doing 3 a week!

emil.y I really wish I'd done Philosophy instead of English tbh

I don't see how it's any less fair than the current system.

I don't see how it's any less fair than the current system.

Because it shifts the funding burden even further from government to student?

my main point is that there aren't enough jobs and the jobs that there are, well, they're often seemingly pointless and soul-sapping in nature,

hoo boy

Still wanna know how my rhetoric veers Tory.

many xposts: i went to uni at 21, don't think I had much more of a work ethic than my peers. less patience for alcoholic distractions (or at least for spending time w drunk 18-y-os), v little desire to join any societies.

we need more goddamn jobs! and if they're not there, we need more goddamn benefits.

where do these jobs come from? where do these benefits come from?

well if we can't supply the jobs or the benefits, the only logical response is revolution

FSVO "logic".

if we break all the windows in the city there'll be plenty of work for glaziers' apprentices

as it is, we can supply the benefits. we take them from the pockets of those who've profited enormously from the society they grew up in. it's what they owe.

c# it depends which uni you're going to, to a fair extent

What do you do with millions of underqualified 18-21 year-olds suddenly knocking around the system? What jobs are they supposed to do? And what happens to the other people who need those jobs but can't get them because the labour market is suddenly flooded with people who have just done their A-Levels?

I think most 18yos with A-Levels or equiv could fairly comfortably go into e.g. the same admin/office jobs they end up doing (even if only temporarily) as graduates.

I think most 18yos with A-Levels or equiv could fairly comfortably go into e.g. the same admin/office jobs they end up doing (even if only temporarily) as graduates.

But what about the graduates you're then displacing?

Still wanna know how my rhetoric veers Tory.

― acoleuthic, Friday, 12 November 2010 17:21 (2 minutes ago)

we can supply the benefits. we take them from the pockets of those who've profited enormously from the society they grew up in.

so do we tax only those who we can judge to have profited from their upbringing? should we only tax those who grew up in this country?

if we break all the windows in the city there'll be plenty of work for glaziers' apprentices

Student defenestration time

In my mind, I could've done a sales/admin/customer care job for two years, realised how soul-destroying it was, gone to uni with this in mind and tried FUCKLOADS harder with a more mature attitude than I actually did, and hopefully got further than doing a sales/admin/customer care job for the rest of my life...

....or the society they're currently taking advantage of by living here *saves self*

Still wanna know how my rhetoric veers Tory.

Loads of Tories are generally down with the idea of branding certain jobs as "useless" or "non-jobs" and can take a dim view of humanities degrees and other courses with no obvious vocational use. It's not out-and-out Tory obviously but it's definitely Tory-tinted.

Matt - except that, as detailed, most people won't pay back anywhere nearbthe full amount so government will effectively still be picking up the tab. Also, I don't necessarily think govt should pick up the tab for HE; I'm not sure govt should pick up the tab for anything people choose to do.

what kinds of jobs do you feel aren't soul-sapping?

I'm not sure govt should pick up the tab for anything people choose to do

Ohhhhboy

But people on £22K still have to pay it all back, right? If they pay it back slower aren't they paying back MORE money (because of interest)?

Bottom line for me is this: the government says that educational cuts are part of an effort to get the deficit under control. Fine; take the money from the generation(s) that fucked up the economy, not from 16-year-olds FFS (I see that acoleuthic agrees with me here)

But what about the graduates you're then displacing?

the idea is that they are generally better placed to bypass the temping/'this isn't what i studied for' aspect of post-grad life and the relevant employers would be more sensitive to this. the key point is that the postgrads actually have more working experience behind them when they do graduate, even if it's going back a few years (but the same experience pre-uni helps them gain better summer jobs in the meantime). obv it would be an enormous almost unwieldy socio-cultural shake-up but the resulting omelette could be so much tastier (btw i've just eaten an omelette).

Loads of Tories are generally down with the idea of branding certain jobs as "useless" or "non-jobs" and can take a dim view of humanities degrees and other courses with no obvious vocational use. It's not out-and-out Tory obviously but it's definitely Tory-tinted.

OK

1. I will be more careful before ranting about admin and data entry in future. They may be boring and they may exist to maximise profits but at least they are jobs. I should not have a problem with any job that people are prepared to remunerate.

2. I do not think we should abolish humanities degrees! I think the future is bright for humanities degrees and that they can be much more exciting and involving than they are at present. As long as the students are getting a really broad and thought-provoking initiation into vast discourses of critical and cultural wealth then I think it's fucking vital that those with a passion for the subjects are encouraged and subsidised to do them.

Loads of Tories are generally down with the idea of branding certain jobs as "useless" or "non-jobs" and can take a dim view of humanities degrees and other courses with no obvious vocational use. It's not out-and-out Tory obviously but it's definitely Tory-tinted.

tbf the 'mickey mouse degrees'/'what's kind of made-up non-job is a environmental awareness facilitator anyway' way of thinking is perniciously pervasive - it's a really successful meme

it can be very hard to avoid repeating it, or at the v least fighting on its terms, is what i mean

I will be more careful before ranting about admin and data entry in future. They may be boring and they may exist to maximise profits but at least they are jobs. I should not have a problem with any job that people are prepared to remunerate.

i don't really think admin and data entry 'exist to maximise profits' any more than any other job does!

They may be boring and they may exist to maximise profits

Last time I looked menial admin work wasn't really revenue generating. Avoiding jobs that exist to maximise profits is going to seriously limit your career options in the future, rightly or wrongly.

environmental awareness facilitator

yeah but this is a really useful job - I was *merely* having a crack at data entry slugathons (I mean what sort of society needs that shit ffs except a hilariously capitalist one) because they defy my pastoral ideals of the self-esteem a job well done should give - I mean you can't take pride in data entry can you

so glad I chose a thread with 'britain' in the title btw - am shuddering to think what would have happened otherwise

and there are plenty of jobs "that people are prepared to remunerate" that we really should have problems with!

louis what on earth do you think data entry is?

mean you can't take pride in data entry can you

as opposed to what?

I mean what sort of society needs that shit ffs except a hilariously capitalist one

Everyone needs that shit. Its like asking what sort of society needs cleaners. Half of Soviet Moscow was probably involved in menial admin!

LJ I think step one here would be to learn the difference between "capitalism" and "business".

soviet moscow was state capitalism tho

my pastoral ideals of the self-esteem a job well done should give - I mean you can't take pride in data entry can you

Not only is that kind of romantic and unzen but it's an argument best avoided. It's not whether you think a particular job is unrewarding, it's about whether people are condemned to only do work that they find unrewarding.

lou1s you shld apprentice yrself to a cobbler or smthn

make mto leather brogues & shit in the grand style of historic english shoemaking [via ur country being filled with 'fops']

u cld charge tonnes of [excessive # of 'pound' or english dollar symbols] for them [via style section coverage]

then w/ the money u cld apprentice other yung ppl give them jobs/hope for the future/a relevant craft

after a day of leatherworking and successful cobbling u cld read them new dalkey archives releases [via amazon.co.uk]

think abt mann its a real lyfe

Very doubtful that any society, Capitalist or not, cd go back to the days of skilled craftsfolk doing their own thing 24-7 tbh. And I reckon you'd find a good bunch of people for whom that wd be a total headfucking nightmare, too.

soviet moscow was state capitalism tho

Okay then, your gigantic non-monetary hippy commune in space will also need people to input data about what's happening on the space station.

reasons to take pride in having a data entry job:

1. you don't have to wear a dumb hat or uniform
2. risk of bodily injury and health problems due to hazardous working conditions are low
3. you don't have to deal with customers/the public

i mean the buzzjob for graduates these days is 'consultancy'. fuck it freezes my mind.

i like the public!

consultancy is neither 'data entry' or 'admin' you mentalist

*nor

atm I wd kill for a job where I just typed stuff into a computer and didn't speak to any fucker for hours at a time and they rewarded me reasonably tbh

consultancy in the uk appears to mainly mean stealing money from african governments

lol whut at sarahel reasons for pride. reasons to be thankful maybe.

what jobs have you had where you have to deal with the public, LJ?

i like the public!

i suppose they all look alike to you, PUBLICIST

yah but mgmt consultancy is fairly interesting/challenging work in addition to being highly paid? not sure how that relates to data entry 'slugathons' (?)

ne way what do you think of my idea lou1s? u cld be the socialist edward green think abt it

atm I wd kill for a job where I just typed stuff into a computer and didn't speak to any fucker for hours at a time and they rewarded me reasonably tbh

watching my back right now

Not only is that kind of romantic and unzen but it's an argument best avoided. It's not whether you think a particular job is unrewarding, it's about whether people are condemned to only do work that they find unrewarding.

Yes, and thanks. This offshoot is working entirely at cross-purposes to my argument ('more jobs, better system') and I regret the irrational outburst at admin jobs. Consider it a weakness of mine that I am working to excise. I should make better peace with it. Sorry. FWIW I am actually v interested in Buddhism but that is another thread

YES I KNOW consultancy is not data entry but it is an example of the pernicious moneygrabbing crypto-toryism that we're submitting ourselves to - what is it even FOR ah yes 'huge fucking profits'

i mean the buzzjob for graduates these days is 'consultancy'. fuck it freezes my mind.

I think your knee needs to stop jerking so much really. You don't know anything about what these jobs involve! Pick your battles more selectively!

YES I KNOW consultancy is not data entry but it is an example of the pernicious moneygrabbing crypto-toryism that we're submitting ourselves to - what is it even FOR ah yes 'huge fucking profits'

Please come to America.

(btw i've just eaten an omelette).

What kind?

public jobs? ok i have been a clerk in a video + music retail store and loooovvved it. also i loved working in a warehouse assembling customer orders. and now i am working online with public clients.

lamp i think shoemaking is a valid craft and i will consider it ty - not sure abt 'fops' tho

OK LET ME ESTABLISH THIS FACT: I DO NOT WISH TO CONTINUE THE ARGUMENT ABOUT JOBS I KNEEJERKILY DISLIKE; THAT IS NOT THE MAIN FOCUS OF MY IRE; I AM WRONG ABOUT THEM

Consultancy is Stealing money from all and sundry.

How many data entry / mind-numbing, nom autonomy to make own decision jobs are actually public sector rather than private? (Or were.)

Matt, obviously I'm blanketing with the "anything people choose to do" thing, but I'd rather the state was a safety net than a trampoline.

*PROBABLY WRONG ABOUT THEM

I hope my confusion speaks for many of my generation.

this was originally about changes to the educational system and fees/loans, correct?

(also yknow one of the the most-disliked ways that management consultancy works is by tapping into employers' sense that admin jobs are 'non-jobs' and that the ppl who work in it are replaceable and can be fired at will without affecting the company's product)

(ok stopping now)

(o_O)

sarahel, it was originally about whether the recent protest against the proposed cuts to education (that will probably lead to universities raising fees significantly after the fee cap is removed) was well-executed or not

btw I never described data entry as a 'non-job', just a really dismal one - but I have been partially disabused of this

Right I'm off to cycle on my part public ally subsidized bicycle to play football at a public ally subsidized sports centre with a load of university administrators.

they had a recent protest about similar issues in California where the protesters climbed onto and stopped traffic on the freeway

^^^that's my kinda protest

enjoy your free leisure nick

Still wondering about Steve's omelette. I am hungry.

this feeds into my idea for a futuristic dystopic sitcom, where there is no currency, only data entry, which can be done from anywhere on your phone. in fact doing a little data entry is required to do most things: open the refrigerator, turn on the TV, make a phone call, etc. and if eventually you do enough data entry you get to move up a "level", the only consequence of which is that you get to... do more data entry

standard, one kind of cheese.

it were good, I thought. it were good.

xp

i'd think that the next level would be having to review other people's data entry for mistakes.

there are computers for that

there are also optical scanners that can replace data entry people

I'm not sure govt should pick up the tab for anything people choose to do.

Yeah, but higher education is supposed to be about raising the standards and intellectual capability of the nation, not about purchasing something as a consumer good or taking it up as a hobby. It strikes me as somewhat paradoxical that as the government have been pushing for more people to go to university they've been making it more of a luxury product AND more of a necessity.

Argh, I should stop coming on to this thread, I'm already angry enough with the world.

Yeah, but higher education is supposed to be about raising the standards and intellectual capability of the nation, not about purchasing something as a consumer good or taking it up as a hobby. It strikes me as somewhat paradoxical that as the government have been pushing for more people to go to university they've been making it more of a luxury product AND more of a necessity.

I entirely agree with this.

emil.y, I am angry too, and I want you to help me channel my anger fruitfully. Is this fair? I don't want you to regard me as a raving lost-cause idiot.

there are also optical scanners that can replace data entry people

but then how would you open the fridge??

think about it

i'm just trying to help you develop your dystopian sit-com

perhaps being replaced by an optical scanner is the kind of rumour that everyone is afraid of, and keeps them obedient

your gigantic non-monetary hippy commune in space

I lolled.

Free?! This is costing me £3!

As a retail worker at an airport much of my time is spent daydreaming of this -

atm I wd kill for a job where I just typed stuff into a computer and didn't speak to any fucker for hours at a time and they rewarded me reasonably tbh

― the Ford Escort Cabriolet of middle-aged men (Noodle Vague), Friday, 12 November 2010 17:42 (16 minutes ago)

I took pride in my data entry jobs. I saw what a bad job the previous people had done and how I was actually pretty fast and accurate at typing my hundreds of pages of numerical data in a little zen trance on the numeric keypad. Like numeric keypad whack-a-rat game Tontie but with more pageturning.

Data entry jobs I have taken:
- adding students onto the cardkey system so they can get through doors
- typing in hundreds of bits of paper about which box of books went where so that students might be able to read them
$$REVENUE$$

Too old to get data entry jobs now as they want to fill them all at the lower rate minimum wage for under-25s (?) :(

your gigantic non-monetary hippy commune in space

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_(novel)

er, if you close the brackets the link works

Student fees protest: Man arrested over fire extinguisher thrown from roof

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/12/student-fees-protest-fire-extinguisher

god love you lj. amazing posts today.

p.s. different funding system obv., but you should read this (for example) and think about whether a university education/experience is something you can replace with google or whatever the fuck nonsense it is you're suggesting: http://chronicle.com/article/The-College-as-a-Philanthropy/125176/

Can I surmise from this thread that ILX is now LJ's university and we should set him, and any other passing youth, essays?

"I've learned that a teammate on my sports team is receiving more institutional financial aid than I am, even though she isn't as good a player as I am, and she's not making as important a contribution to the team as I am. In the interest of fairness, I would like you to increase my aid."

That goes that 'fairness' thing again.

UIt's not a debt like any other, Henry. Because it's not a fixed- amount, or even a fixed- amount with interest that you pay back. Thinking of it as a debt is the wrong way to go about it. On the wage I'm on now I'd be paying back less a month than I do now. Mortgage lenders won't consider it when weighing up whether to lend to you. Nit oaring it back because you don't earn enough wont affect your credit rating. Etc etc etc.

― Captain Ostensible (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 12, 2010 4:59 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

again scrolling through but... how are you not thinking about it as a debt? it is money that you have to pay back once you earn over £21k. with a higher interest rate than we pay now. (i say we but im four years unemployed at this point, so i mean you really.) £21k isn't that much for a graduate. these days. i earned absolutely jackshit on graduation too, but even with my incredibly patchy employment history, i hit 20k pretty quick. if it's earnings-based, why not, er, well, you know, tax high earners?

Which is happening.

http://img6.glowfoto.com/images/2010/11/11-0534039401L.jpg

http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=11-053403L&rand=9401&t=jpg&m=11&y=2010&srv=img6&ref=nf

Which is happening.

― Captain Ostensible (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

no, i mean why not tax higher earners and not charge higher tuition fees

(actually a lot of the fees *are* straight tax, or a 'levy' that goes not to the university but to hmrc, but no-one reports this)

damn this is the biggest protest since that guy went ham outside brick lane american apparel

omg you guys are still on about that? That's sticktoitiveness!

Police clashing with schoolkids really does not reflect well on the Met.

http://thetvaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/scrubs.thumbnail.jpg some of those hoodies were BARGAIN

it doesn't look so much clashing as sucking them through the thin yellow line and sitting on them one at a time.

The Radcliffe Camera in Oxford is apparently now occupied, with a large soundsystem in it.

http://thetvaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/scrubs.thumbnail.jpg im just of to its less spectacular cambridge equivalent... might take an ipod in

ah, they have got into the senate house here:

http://www.varsity.co.uk/news/2927

My boss just came through to tell me about the Rad Cam. This is what passes for excitement in Oxford. I am looking through trending tweets about it as a vicarious thrill to substitute for the time I didn't protest student fees in '98 because it would've involved getting up before noon.

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/tv/i_like_to_watch/2007/04/01/the_shield/lc.gif you would have made all the difference

Thank god you've lost the Ed Miliband avatar.

Political protest in Britain now appears to involve making the world's longest McDonald's straw:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg207/scaled.php?tn=0&server=207&filename=59f0.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs464.snc4/49042_100001818037528_5721267_q.jpg latf protestors

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/tv/i_like_to_watch/2007/04/01/the_shield/lc.gif you would have made all the difference

http://i51.tinypic.com/2vt5xud.jpg I know, right? Sorry UK

--
~~~born into the age of panic~~~

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs464.snc4/49042_100001818037528_5721267_q.jpg lol my mum's office got let out early coz of the occupaish

What's the difference between kettling and teabagging again?

http://img1.jurko.net/SubZero29654.gifbummed i'm missing this

What's the difference between kettling and teabagging again?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 15:41 (22 minutes ago) Bookmark

is this the beginning of a joke that ends with, "then i'm not letting you make the tea"? you're not catching me out that easily.

Apparently stuff is happening in an hour or so. Will be involved, although not for long if the vibe sours.

one day you wanna smash every window in the city, the next you're scared of a bad vibe?

the smash every window in the city was a hypothetical and also emotional piece of rhetoric, the bad vibe I'm scared of is an uncreative one = anger can be part of a good vibe if channeled

etc

http://i28.tinypic.com/4ux79e.gif oh louis

http://www.occupiedoxford.org/ <- i love that someone went and registered a domain for the purpose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-sTQr9K49U

http://www.thejc.com/files/imagecache/body_portrait/images/011010-michael-gove.jpg Cambridge looks fun - which one is nrq?

This library is now open to all members of the public and we invite you to join us.

Are the RadCam occupiers also fetching books from the stacks?

Saw absolutely nothing about Cambridge protests on my Facebook feed, which kind of surprises me given some of the people on there.

which one is nrq?

the one in the yellow jacket with the big stick

Laurie Penny got bonked in the head with a baton and still filed this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/24/student-protests-childrens-crusade?CMP=twt_gu

im just of to its less spectacular cambridge equivalent... might take an ipod in

― rip whiney g weingarten 03/11 never forget (history mayne), Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:05 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

Did you go down in the end? How was it?

Is anyone else bothered by the idea that Twitter has censored #demo2010 out of trending topics?

not sure the children's crusade is the best comparison for someone repping for the protests: didn't they fail to get to the holy land and get sold into slavery?

i've seen people claiming twitter censorship, but can't believe twitter gives a shit really. is there any evidence?

Oh my god, look at this dork:
http://media.ft.com/cms/c2019d54-f7e4-11df-8d91-00144feab49a.jpg

Did you go down in the end? How was it?

― seandalai, Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:18 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

http://i2.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens1878680module9064605photo_1207880558Ari_Gold.jpg pretty good -- a solid hour's concentrated writing and a few bits and bobs of other stuff. idk, it's just *better* there. obviously being away from the internet helps.

loooool wtf are you doing over there? haven't heard a word of this all day

so is lj currently crouching in a doorway in wc1 filling buckfast bottles with petrol-daubed bits of torn keffiyeh?

fallen madly in love with a privileged bodicea wannabe and is currently laying his body on the line to get her close enough to throw an ironically coloured paint at some minor official.

got personally threatened with violence by a riot cop, not bad going

we occupied The Strand outside CHX for approx. 25 minutes, decent prototype - chanting in favour of the 50-odd sequestered and ringed by police in Duncannon St

cricket nets now

oh and I read a couple of Gerard Manley Hopkins poems to the shield-line, they loved it

some of the binbag-throwing and postcard-rack-overturning was overly obnoxious tho

gotta say i fell pretty inspired, what are the chances we could organize a campaign to get ratm to xmas no 1?

Oh my god, look at this dork:

i'll raise you these beauties on their special, wacky day out.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/24/1290631673212/Students-in-front-of-poli-007.jpg

many of the protestors were callow youths who backed off or fled at the merest sign of police intimidation, pretty sad

you can't blockade a road if everyone gets up and leaves, sheesh

I don't think it's that sad. It just shows that the protests have attracted a lot of very normal people who are outraged by the cuts but don't really know what to do in an aggro situation. Better that they back off during their first protest than smash stuff up just because they think it's what you're supposed to do.

They didn't dress warm enough for a november kettling.

Definitely a disturbing touch of the summer "it's A Level results day, here's some photos of fruity girls" in the newspaper coverage.

emil.y this just after I say that the smashing stuff up doesn't sit too well with me. not saying back off, not saying smash stuff, saying hold ground + restate rights

also james mitchell otm, ffs everyone

The Metro had a photo of one of (those?) girls in front of (that?) Police van with arms outstretched in a "no no, the police are not our enemy" stance.

..where that photo is more an "Our new single is called "Hypnotise me"" stance.

Labour's Lord Harris has said that the protestors should have taken responsibility for wrapping up and going to the toilet before protesting. Cock.

I dunno if it's omg censorship or just a glitch (never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by slapdash programming and an overwhelmed server etc) but the last post on http://twitter.com/occupiedoxford was "25 minutes ago" when I first looked at the page at 9am, and it's still "25 minutes ago"

Why would anyone at Twitter give a enough of a shit about a student protest taking place in London to bother suppressing it?

twitter timecodes are often wrong

emil.y this just after I say that the smashing stuff up doesn't sit too well with me. not saying back off, not saying smash stuff, saying hold ground + restate rights

Yes, and I was saying that I wouldn't be too sad that you saw some people backing off instead of doing this, as for a lot of protestors it was their first ever protest and I wouldn't expect everyone to be brave in the face of police action. Obviously it would be nice, but not everybody is built for it. The fact that they turned up to protest at all is a positive sign.

Definitely a disturbing touch of the summer "it's A Level results day, here's some photos of fruity girls" in the newspaper coverage.

OTM. Also, I really want to punch the patronising Daily Mail in the face (again) for their 'ooh, look, some GIRLS are involved in this protest, instead of being in the kitchen where they belong'.

Our local paper are reporting that a hardcore of student demonstrators ransacked a Poundland yesterday.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/resources/images/1498043/

^ looks like they knocked a few baskets over and chucked some crisps around #anarchy

but who's the real sick man in this so-called society? is it the lib dem minister, reforming out outdated higher education sector, or is it... poundland, selling cheap cosmetics to poor people under horrible lighting

Hey, don't knock Poundland - I got 4 sellotape dispensers there last week, for..er..£4.

Lucky they didn't penetrate as far as the condiments aisle, cos then they really would have started to kick out the economy-brand fruit spreads.

The Metro had a photo of one of (those?) girls in front of (that?) Police van with arms outstretched in a "no no, the police are not our enemy" stance.

Different girls I think.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5204774374_453f337630.jpg

Ties around their heads Lords of the Flies stylee.

Those van protectors (see what I did there?) again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2IVSb3pLY

"I don't give a fuck!"
"Why are you here if you don't give a fuck?!"

Hey, those people get it.

Where were they at Poundland though?

Simon Hughes' constiuency office is being occupied by students in protest over tuition fees
2 minutes ago via web

-- laura kuesennberg sp

Laurie Penny from inside the kettle. She's a lot better at doing this sort of ground-level protest stuff than her straight comment pieces.

that's terrific.

see i was going to be all lolry penny but rly this is about good and evil, aesthetics be damned

so yeah, fuck a police and grudging respect to politikiddies

The quotes were all genuine - she was Tweeting them all afternoon in real time and apparently filed for the Guardian from the kettle, having written her piece on her dying iPhone. HERO, since I could never do that.

that's better xp

so yeah, fuck a police and grudging respect to politikiddies

― calpolaris (nakhchivan), Thursday, 25 November 20

how come the respect is grudging?

Interesting but rather paranoid conspiracy theory about the police van (as seen upthread).
http://www.sumpter.org.uk/?p=300

I don't really buy it but the first thing that struck me when I saw those photos was why it wasn't properly equipped for potential disorder, no windscreen guard?

exact same thing that happened at recent Canadian protests, it's like bait.

how come the respect is grudging?

― cherry blossom, Thursday, 25 November 2010 18:30 (10 minutes ago)

cuz its from me

hard earned respect is the best kind

I should say there was a guard but it was not fixed in position, so it was 1) completely pointless and 2)it became a handy weapon.

xp

i don't think these protests will accomplish their notional/stated goals but anything that makes the cunts look even more like cunts has to be worth something

Van also had aged POLICE AWARE sticker on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqXGdK2VAA

the worst

Dear all,
OUSU agrees with the message of those who protested across the country
yesterday that education cuts and fee rises will leave our Universities
stagnant whilst making the task of widening participation more challenging
than it has ever been. We also agree with the calls for our own University
to do more to champion the cause of Higher Education and make publicly known
the devastating effects of an 80% cut in the teaching budget. OUSU supports
the right of students to protest lawfully and peacefully. However, we do not
condone the disruption of students' ability to study as seen by the
continued closure of the Radcliffe Camera and the closure today of the Old
Bod. We call on all sides to ensure that the protest reaches a peaceful
conclusion and that the libraries are opened again as soon as possible.
 In response to enquiries by a number of students currently working on
examinations/coursework due at the end of this term, OUSU has
established with the Proctors' Office that the following options are open to
such students who feel that their studies have been materially disrupted by
the protests in the Radcliffe Camera and closure of the Bodleian.
1. Prior to deadline for submission, students may submit a written request
to the Proctors' Office seeking an extension to the deadline equivalent to
the time lost through the Bodleian Libraries' closure. Any such request must
be submitted by the student to their college Senior Tutor, who may then
forward the request to the Proctors' Office. Students may not contact the
Proctors directly. Any submission should be as detailed as possible and make
clear how and why the loss of access to the Bodleian for the period in
question has impacted upon the preparation of examination work. Any student
wishing to make such a submission is welcome to contact OUSU's Student
Advice Service for guidance - please email acade✧✧✧@o✧✧✧.o✧✧.
2. Alternatively, students may submit their coursework on time and instead
register a request that the examiners take into consideration the disruption
in the Bodleian when marking their examinations. Any such requests again
must be submitted through the College Senior Tutor and students may not
contact the Proctors Office directly. Again, any submission should be as
detailed as possible and make clear how and why the loss of access to the
Bodleian for the period in question has impacted upon the preparation of
course work. Any student wishing to make such a submission is welcome to
contact OUSU's Student Advice Service for guidance - please email
acade✧✧✧@o✧✧✧.o✧✧.
Please note that in both of these scenarios, the College Senior Tutor has
discretion not to forward the request to the Proctors' Office, and the
Proctors have a further discretion not to approve requests for extensions or
forward information to the examiners. If you would like any further advice
or assistance on this or any other aspect of your examinations then please
feel free to email acade✧✧✧@o✧✧✧.o✧✧.
Best wishes,
David
-- 
David Barclay
President
Oxford University Student Union
Thomas Hull House
Bonn Square
Oxford,  OX1 2DH
Direct: 01865 (2)88459
Reception: 01865 (2)88450
Fax. 01865 (2)88453
www.ousu.org
Follow the Student Union on Facebook by signing up at
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Oxford-University-Student-Union/136177457675?ref=ts
Here's a list of just some of the recent achievements made by your student
union
http://www.ousu.org/about/achievements/ousu-achievements-hilary-2010
**Unless otherwise stated, this email (and any attachment) is confidential
and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed.**

btw those girls who 'protected' that police van are the stepford schoolchildren and must be deprogrammed post-haste

http://www.cherwell.org/content/11131

not really down with eating in library, all this wanky 'carnival of resistance' stuff, and definitely against the stealing of books, for which the punishment should be severe, etc, but in the end im with the protestors

sounds like the police broke library property

kind of feel they should have occupied the uni admin buildings? harder to do

(weirdly a cambridge higher-up told me which part of the uni the students could best occupy)

seems like these guys have absorbed the 'make unreasonable demands' concept. they don't 'play the game' of costing things, but say there shd be universal free access to higher education. like i say, part of me admires that. it's better than ed miliband trying to define the squeezed middle class to the nearest £500 a year household income nahmean. feel like googlebooks is making the radcliffe camera increasingly irrelevant in those terms, however. shd be turned back into a science lab [via 'the saint'].

If, as LP suggests in her report, kids in Whitehall were being egged on by tabloid photographers to do minor violence, shouldn’t the police be rushing to Derry Street and arresting Paul Dacre (and other newspaper offices/editors obv) for incitement?

Yeah, like that's going to happen. Clips I've seen all show really obnoxious snappers doing their usual pap shit, it's SOP to say provocative things esp to young women because that MASSIVE LENS is a KNOB SUBSTITUTE.

Not to mention the Mail discovering Riot Grrl only nineteen years behind schedule.

cambridge senate house being occupied again lol

there's a riot going on

oh lord, they've taken the EXACT ROOM that top-tier cambridge bro told me they shd occupy yesterday

Ed Miliband should stay the fuck away from addressing any students. Looks like bandwagon jumping unless he's prepared to break with previous Labour policy given they're the dudes who made all this possible in the first place.

If he has the courage to break with "New Labour" policy then there's no reason why he shouldn't join in with or at least endorse the protests, unless, of course, his fear of far-right demographic newspaper proprietors exceeds his political will.

(self-correct: "demagogic")

yeah, but you know what's more unaffordable than £3000? £9000

xp

he's not going to break with new labour that much, but old labour never envisaged the sheer scale of the HE sector you have now; the situation of students 30 years ago doesn't really compare. there's a lot more of them now.

There was always going to be a payback for all those ultra-easy everyone-gets-an-A A levels.

so maybe ed miliband should defy the right-wing newspaper proprietors by doing exactly what they want in making A-levels harder and restricting universities to a tiny elite?

somewhat delicate question i wouldn't answer in either of those ways. not everyone is suited to the three-year full-time residential intensive study period that is the undergraduate degree, the drop-out rate is high, and 'in the real world' it can't be paid for out of general taxation. of sure, it could if we scrapped trident or ______ because of course no-one else in society wants that money. grade inflation is real and it is a problem, and it's dishonest to say it should go on in the name of anti-elitism. but what we're looking at is something different, the privatization of post-18 education. that system isn't perfect as it stands, and i don't think it serves everyone who passes through it as well as it might, but the cuts to HE are severe and the indebtedness future young people face really sucks.

i agree with plenty of that, i was sniping at marcello's coinflipping over "everyone-gets-an-A" and "New Labour and far right newspapers in cahoots". about a quarter of A level entrants get As, which is maybe 15 per cent of all teenagers. grade inflation has occurred, although not as much as people think (exam papers from the fifties are also sometimes laughably basic by today's standards). but it needed to, because a system which catered for eight per cent of people going to university, and most not gaining any qualifications at all, isn't really going to cut it.

there's no reason why everyone who gets A levels should do a traditional three year residential degree and there are other options, but the block grant to universities has tended to shore up the BA as the predominant route by guaranteeing funding even for relatively shitty and ineffectual courses. some of the marketisation in browne (removal of recruitment caps, funding follows student choices rather than institutional grants) have the potential to chip away at that. but the withdrawal of 40 per cent of the teaching budget overshadows everything else, including the affordability measures which are a massive improvement (it's debt, but it's risk-free). it is a significant problem that the public as a whole won't have any interest in large amounts of university provision.

the deficit reduction programme is too severe, although if i was going to maintain spending anywhere i'm not sure HE would be my first choice (given £11bn or w/e cuts to benefits). but the mantra in education atm is that costs should be split three ways between all beneficiaries: society/govt, individuals and businesses. employers don't contribute to HE at all but they benefit from large numbers of graduates in the workforce, if only for labour cost reasons. why not scrap the corporation tax cut, call that 3 per cent a "skills levy" and put it to reducing student fees?

Pretty much agree with HM there.

I've always thought that raising the minimum entry age for tertiary education to, say, twenty-three would be a far better way of doing things. It means that students go out into the world, earn some money, learn about life and then come back wiser and better equipped to deal with university. Perhaps vocational degrees such as law and medicine could still be started immediately post-school but even there I reckon you'd have a much better pass rate and the maturity to deal with what they're learning.

A-levels should be hard and universities are by definition elite. That's why they're there, although of course A-level results in themselves don't tell you much about how good somebody is going to be as a student. A lot more universities would do well to follow the Oxbridge example and get people in for interviews to prove they're as intelligent as their results say they are.

As HM says, though, this issue is not one which naturally arouses the empathy of the British public.

I've always thought that raising the minimum entry age for tertiary education to, say, twenty-three would be a far better way of doing things. It means that students go out into the world, earn some money, learn about life and then come back wiser and better equipped to deal with university.

Disagree entirely. I feel it solves what is only a perceived/eye of the beholder problem - "University is an opportunity wasted on 18-year olds" - while penalising the many students who are perfectly well-equipped to deal with higher education at 18 or 19. Also there are practical issues, as I mentioned upthread:

"This is unworkable. What do you do with millions of underqualified 18-21 year-olds suddenly knocking around the system? What jobs are they supposed to do? And what happens to the other people who need those jobs but can't get them because the labour market is suddenly flooded with people who have just done their A-Levels?"

You can't reduce the number of people going to university unless you also reduce the number of employers who see a degree as an absolute bare minimum qualification for any job at all. How do you do that, magic?

Agree with Matt there. While there are plenty of people who would benefit from putting off university until later (me, for instance), there are also plenty who are equipped to go at 18, and it should be a personal choice. The practical problem of underqualified 18-21 year olds would be a massive one.

I do think that there should be less emphasis on large numbers of people going to university as a matter of course. It seems to me like an incredibly lazy policy dreamed up by someone who couldn't be arsed to actually attempt to tackle equality of access: 'oh, I know, why not make it necessary for everyone to go, then we'll definitely get some more poor kids in there'.

but the mantra in education atm is that costs should be split three ways between all beneficiaries: society/govt, individuals and businesses. employers don't contribute to HE at all but they benefit from large numbers of graduates in the workforce, if only for labour cost reasons. why not scrap the corporation tax cut, call that 3 per cent a "skills levy" and put it to reducing student fees?

Massive can of worms here. "Employers don't contribute to HE at all" is obviously not true because traditionally they have, through taxation. Business, society and government are the same thing here. If you take money from businesses directly, as a skills levy or anything else, you open up two issues. Does all that money reach the universities? And do you run the risk of letting business feel its entitled to call the shots as to which courses receive funding, which "skills" are worthwhile and so forth. As a nation we seem to delude ourselves into thinking that the interests of academia and business are the same, when really they aren't.

If, as LP suggests in her report, kids in Whitehall were being egged on by tabloid photographers to do minor violence, shouldn’t the police be rushing to Derry Street and arresting Paul Dacre (and other newspaper offices/editors obv) for incitement?

Yes, they should, but just like the tabloid newspaper that habitually and illegally intercepted the private communications of our elected representatives, it's hard to imaghine actual police/legal action being taken. It makes me angry.

....just like in the case of the tabloid newspaper... etc

totally agree w/older people going to uni, give people time to consider their options before getting £20k+ in the hole for a cultural studies degree

it's something that needs to be moved towards, not compulsory. but you'd probably have to do a whole bunch of other stuff to make it really work e.g. ditch league tables and standardise better (so abolish public schools, basically a complete fucking reset lol

What we actually need are harder and more work-intensive degree courses, especially in non-sciences. This debate about when to send them is just fiddling.

Anyway a video's just emerged of mounted police charging protesters at Whitehall. I repeat, police on horseback, charging at schoolchildren. Welcome to liberal Britain.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/26/police-student-protests-horses-charge?CMP=twt_gu

don't really think it's 'fiddling' to help people who are basically still children avoid a major financial pitfall

Imagine how great it would be if the government was in a position to make it less of a major financial pitfall!

imagine how great it would be if it turned out porton down had been genetically engineering unicorns

Well of course it all depends on there being jobs for people to go to, which is what the Government really needs to sort out. But I don't think that it's a justified use of public money to subsidise essentially (though not uniformly) immature* people with nothing to their name but a piece of paper saying "I Went To School."

If they want to go to university when they're 18 or 19, fine, as long as they're prepared to pay for it. The old system where your local council basically paid for your student grant (it was the case in Scotland certainly in my day, not sure about the rest of Britain) was useful (and in altered form still exists in the States) but in these days of deep council cuts that's probably pipedreaming.

*Based on my own experience of students when I was a student; big drop out rate, homesickness, chronic depression, inability to cope with suddenly being thrust from cosy secondaries into fend-for-yourself tertiaries.**

**not on my own experience, almost needless to say.

Agree firmly about "harder and more work-intensive degree courses," by the way.

ts: people who slacked off drinking beer for three years at uni calling for degrees to be made harder vs people who got an education for free putting up fees?

About 481,000 people started at university in 2009. That's a lot of jobs! It's pretty much the same number of public sector workers that will lose their jobs over the next few years. That's 481,000 OTHER people who won't get a job because it's been taken by someone killing time during an enforced gap between school and university.

Marcello, your argument is classic "I benefitted from this but these people won't so why fund them?"

Not at all.

Back then there was enough money to ensure that everyone benefited; now there isn't. The central problem is one that the Government can solve if they stop wasting their time worrying what the tabloids are going to think.

Back then there was enough money to ensure that everyone benefited; now there isn't.

not the fault of undergrads and there are plenty of more deserving people who should be punished due to there being less money where it's needed.

tho i'd like to see more people go to college later, having had more opportunity to earn money (and working experience) beforehand perhaps education costs could be more dependent on what you're studying (the more people doing X profession the country needs, the cheaper it is).

amazing how many ppl just resent investing money in young ppl like they're prodigal sons. fits in well w/ cameron's talk of making sure those who 'play by the rules' don't lose out.

amazing how many ppl just resent investing money in ppl

Fixed.

amazing how many ppl just resent investing money in aapl

haha, sadly less amazing to me. i like the parable of the prodigal son because its the closest i can recall jesus getting to saying "don't be such a victim"

All of these resentful people have had plenty of money spent on them on all sorts of appropriate entitlements, so they can basically recognise that or fuck off - besides, someone paying taxes on £15,000 a year and someone paying taxes on £150,000 are both paying for other people's education. The lower earner might only ever pay £1000 proportionally to that part of the system over the course of a whole working life. The higher earner will pay the same proportion but obviously that generates at least 10 times the revenue, so I really don't understand these people who've never been to university or HE who act like their tax burden on this is somehow unfair. It is not.

Also, if taxes were collected from the emotional and financial blackmailers who skive off billions in tax and then say jobs will be lost if they are forced to pay - fuck off and stop pushing a narrative that calls people who live on sink estates etc. 'parasites'. I really only see one set of parasites here.

Jesus, that video of that horse charge made me angry.

Suzy xpost: I'm wondering when (not, I think, "if") this Government will put forward legislation that allows taxpayers to choose where their taxes go.

police are so defensive they get to make all their decisions far away from all public scrutiny, out on the steppes perhaps

Suzy xpost: I'm wondering when (not, I think, "if") this Government will put forward legislation that allows taxpayers to choose where their taxes go.

Won't happen, just in case it suddenly leaves them in the position of not being able fight wars.

Hey, just think of all the money that would be available if we stopped fighting wars in um hang on

The Met's barefaced denial of police horse charges, combined with that youtube video is absolutely infuriating.

It won't happen because numpties who say 'I don't want any of MY TAXES going to x y or z' are incredibly useful to governments as battering rams against the poor.

Just also chiming in about my anger as to how the Met have dealt with this. After reading the report from inside the kettle last night I came home so cross I ended up missing my stop on the train. Think protestors should assimilate the fire extinguisher as a symbol of dissent.

the police horse thing fills me with total rage - how they can blithely burble that they were "doing the movements the horses do to help control the crowd for everyone's benefit", not charging, heavens no, that's a "quite specific term" -- it's a fucking great animal, you use it to ride at people so they get out of the way else they'll be crushed, that's not 'helping to control the crowd', it's terrifying people who you've already got trapped.

People saying that it "wasn't a charge" - I'd like to see how they'd react in a kettle. I'm sure even the smallest jostle would feel like a crush.

The worst thing though are the headlines celebrating the fact the Met are now planning to step up their operations when it comes to dealing with protest. May as well just get a fucking tank and some paratroopers, and blow em all away.

I love the way the Metropolitan Police seem to be bare-faced liars - with respect to this and the Ian Tomlinson case, say, it seems very much like telling fibs is their standard modus operandi.

They are merely copying their 'betters' like all good forelock-grabbers.

Am envisaging mass police vs. student snowball fights today if the planned protests do go ahead.

the cambridge lot are still in occupation

sympathize w. them but MAN are they SUCH WANKERS to an extent

Last night fifteen police officers were injured and four people arrested outside Lewisham town hall in south-east London, where demonstrators gathered to protest outside a meeting where councillors were voting to cut the council budget by £60m.

Officers had to call for help from the Metropolitan police's Territorial Support Group as 100 protesters tried to force their way into the building, the Guardian reported.

A spokesman for the Met police told me this morning that fifteen officers suffered "minor injuries" while policing the demonstration. Two were hurt badly enough to spend the night in hospital, one with a broken finger and another being treated for the smoke inhalation after inhaling fumes from protesters' flares.

Fifteen police officers injured? Everyone remember those reports of police casualties at one of the Kingsnorth protests and it later transpired that half of them were for wasp stings and nettle rash and the like?

(this is the thing I mean: Those Kingsnorth police injuries in full: six insect bites and a toothache)

"It was a really bad toothache, OK?"

Love this bit:

The other injuries reported included "stung on finger by possible wasp"; "officer injured sitting in car"; and "officer succumbed to sun and heat". One officer cut his arm on a fence when climbing over it, another cut his finger while mending a car, and one "used leg to open door and next day had pain in lower back".

Vince Cable getting grilled on R5 right now :D

dude perked mad up when a very lucid + intelligent-sounding mother said at the end of a well-worked assault upon his policies 'I'm gonna have to ask my kids to think rly hard about what they do at 18' - he was all 'yeah! they should! there are other options!' and then later he says 'we don't want to discourage your children from going to university' - riiiiight

I mean sure there ARE other options and they should be considered but finance shouldn't be the decider - the student's needs should be

the cambridge lot are still in occupation

sympathize w. them but MAN are they SUCH WANKERS to an extent

I am in an affiliated mailing list of sorts although more as a silent observer and yesterday it devolved into a big bitchfight about the merits of a poem some professor wrote for the occupation

hope they achieve something beyond self-publicism

Last night fifteen police officers were injured and four people arrested outside Lewisham town hall in south-east London, where demonstrators gathered to protest outside a meeting where councillors were voting to cut the council budget by £60m.

slept on this huh

That's going to happen at town halls all over the country over the coming months. Other councils have kept their cuts much closer to their chest than Lewisham, which has at least tried to be consultative. Dunno how much freedom councils are going to have in this, I suspect very little.

Also the Tory councillors voted against the cuts and the LibDems abstained. Cheeky cunts.

I am in an affiliated mailing list of sorts although more as a silent observer and yesterday it devolved into a big bitchfight about the merits of a poem some professor wrote for the occupation

hope they achieve something beyond self-publicism

― rmad and dangerous (acoleuthic), Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:51 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

would love to know abt this btw, cd take it to the balkans?

Don't think Lewisham really covered themselves in glory by only letting about 20 members of the public into the meeting though. Would have saved themselves a bit of trouble had they done it elsewhere.

Yeah, if they'd had their meeting in Galashiels..

the cambridge lot are still in occupation

sympathize w. them but MAN are they SUCH WANKERS to an extent

^^^ this

Students into day nine of their occupation of a privately-run cafe at the University of the West of England in Bristol.

What's the deal with this? Is it a Starbucks or something, or is it just a local sandwich shop or what?

ah my mum's a.m.

which reminds me, how's father J's old haunt of Keele responding, they're normally pretty radge

is it a joke about students making a coffee last an afternoon?

If it's anything like here, they're probably still waiting for a toasted sandwich.

This is fucking insane. Kettling in Leeds and London already.

Hopefully Brighton march will be less scary. Am wearing 25 layers of clothing and making sandwiches in case of kettling.

wish i cd do my bit but have a 20-page project to do by tomorrow morning - good luck!

Good luck emily!

wuss, xpost

This is really not good kettling weather...

blimey they seem to be running and gunning, avoiding the kettles?

http://twitter.com/PennyRed

yeah that's right i linked to laurie penny, sometimes you've got to be the big man

whoever said pigtail-pulling otm

14.00 Varsity spoke to Juan Zober de Francisco, former King's JCR President about life in the occupation. He said, "It's interesting people have been coupling up more - it's not clear if it's just because of the cold." When asked if anyone had had sex in here, he said, "no comment."

gross

they've occupied, like, a room

get a room imo

Serious question - I've got to be in Great George Street this evening, are this pesky students going to make that difficult? If so, curses to them for my missing a free dinner, if not, good for them, etc.

It was easy enough to get to Charing Cross station on the day of the last protest so I can't see them making it impossible.

It was easy enough to get to Charing Cross station during the Poll Tax riot protest, so..

Just thinking of the proximity of Parliament Sq to GrGS. BBC seems very vague about what's actually happening around there?

Meanwhile in Brum
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2010/11/30/student-protesters-stage-sit-in-at-birmingham-city-council-chamber-65233-27742705/

bummed i missed freezing to death for free education :(

Back now.

Met up with my friends on the side of the meeting point that meant we were right at the back of the march (not intentionally) so couldn't see that much of what was going on. Most of the way through Brighton centre was fine, then just as we started changing into Hove the police seemed to keep stopping bits of the march to try to split us up into smaller chunks (as far as I could tell this was completely and utterly without warrant). After a couple of times of being bottlenecked and separated people started to try to push back, chanting 'let us through' and 'whose streets? Our streets!', and that's when they got out the riot police. We were actually caught outside the line of riot cops, trying to get in to be with the rest of the protestors - it looked like it was going to be a full-on kettling, but then after about 5-10 minutes (not got a good sense of time, so rough guess) they just seemed to wander off and let everyone go try to catch up with the front again.

By the time we got to Hove town hall it all seemed a bit of an anticlimax. There were a few people who were trying to do some sort of candelight vigil, and a bunch of younger anarchist types who had 'occupied' a car park across the road, and then just a few clumps of people not really knowing what to do. Was thinking about buggering off and then the car park guys started throwing some fireworks down into the crowd (and it was into the crowd - the police had clocked what was happening and moved themselves away). I really really hate fireworks even when they're in organised displays, so that made up my mind to get going. It didn't particularly look like it was going to kick off, even the fireworks were minimal, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was an attempt to get into the hall at some point.

Glad yr okay!

ha, sussex police have been liveblogging it: http://www.sussex.police.uk/news-and-events/second-stop-the-cuts-live-updates

the police kind of love it because it provides an argument not to cut them #allinittogether

cheers emil.y, hope you all can keep up the momentum!

Out before Sussex's finest try their hand at kettling:

17:37 - The group of protesters at St Peter's Church are being contained under common law to prevent further breach of the peace and to allow for controlled dispersal.

15:35

Protesters are not being contained. They are currently at Palmeira Square at the junction with Holland Road.

This is a lie. This is shortly after I sent a message to the mister with the words 'riot police!' We were being prevented from moving forward and the others were being prevented from going anywhere. This was definitely containment.

18.50 Another group meeting is being held. Around 50 people are present. This time discussion focuses around the use of sexist language by demonstrators, for example in slogans such as "Samantha Cameron we'll fuck David Cameron just like he fucked up our country" and "David takes it up the bum" etc.

A statement is being drawn up by the group to condemn any racist, sexist and homophobic remarks being used in the movement.

ah, the dreaming spires

Saw a Sam Cam picture with something along the lines of: NOT THE ONLY ONE BEING FUCKED BY CAMERON.

tonight our guys are reportedly watching 'battle of algiers' but i guess they caught 'annie hall' earlier #oldjokes

http://www.witneygazette.co.uk/resources/images/1464355/?type=display

Video footage showed protesters entering the Oxford building and walking through corridors before being ejected by police. The Conservative leader of the local authority, Keith Mitchell, said on Twitter: "County Hall invaded by an ugly, badly dressed student rabble. God help us if this is our future."

don't knock lilac fashion choices dude

Yeah, cos it really goes well with tweeds and a fugly old Gimli face.

haha I guess if I'm pretty amazed how sarcastic I can be after a cold night's non-sleep defining Marxist dialectic (unfinished) then you're not gonna pick it up at all

IN THIS THREAD, JAGGER IS PRIGGISH ASSHOLE AND NEEDS TO FINISH HIS WORK

ALSO FUCK MALLARDS AND MOST KINDS OF GEESE

TELLEM

Sarcasm again? I just don't know these days...

pretty easy to parse: sleepless restlessness, cooped-up-at-home-while-everyone-protests exsublimated aggro, the usual nonsensicall-caps japery, webbed feet <<< non-webbed feet

PALMATE FEET >>>> ALLLLLLLLL

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/debbie.allan1/images/trihel04apr06_13b.jpg

HULLOE HAVE U MET MY COUSIN GEORGE OSBORNE

Is that a newt of some sort? Guessing Eric Pickles has the worst feet in the cabinet tbh.

Anyone see the Coppers prog on C4 about polcing an EDL/UAF demo?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coppers/4od#3142078

Quite interesting but there was obviously some sheninigans in the edit. It's been an odd series all round.

11.46 There is a feeling among some occupiers that they are being ignored, or that their message is not getting out to other students at Cambridge.

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/academy-poster-for-luis-bunuels-the-exterminating-angel-1962_1275249.jpg

most apt double-bill for the purposes of this post of all time?

hmm, they're kind of losing my sympathy a bit, by directing a "noise protest" against my mum

"David takes it up the bum" wow my 11yo kids school playmates are past the stage where this is a novel insult 0_o

how is kettling legal? I mean, isn't it blatantly internment without trial?

internment is detainment of suspects (or "suspects") beyond the normal period allowed for arrest without charge. that's 24h, at least (depending on intended charge/magistrate involvement). kettling is not 24h. so no, it's not internment.

i've heard lawyers say it's illegal, certainly pretty murky

Minor lol at Cambridge occupation banner today: "Keeping it Old School 1968-2010". It looks like they've hit the problem that they are being ignored by both the administration and the larger student body. The space they're occupying is symbolic, but it's not necessary for the university to function. Hence the noise protests, I guess.

i do sort of wonder if the administration is being soft on them (ie not having them evicted, which they easily could) so that they actually get maximum publicity

i wouldn't say the university is 'pro-fees', exactly, but it has to work with whichever govt is in power -- the occupiers demanding that it 'never' go private shd recognize that by being a client of the government you have to eat a certain amount of shit

the uni doesn't issue ultimata or make demands, but could allowing this to continue be a tacit way of making a point?

just spitballin here

The university's #1 priority is to guarantee a sufficient income stream to "compete on the world stage". Given the current regime it seems that higher fees are the most likely way of achieving this, though I agree that if the national mood changed and the government agreed to generous funding from general taxation this would make a lot of people here happy.

Also agree that doing nothing is a win-win scenario for the university. Forcibly removing them might lead to bad publicity, so even if the university wants them out it makes sense to wait for them to get bored and go home for Christmas. Non-local undergraduates won't be able to keep their College accommodation for much longer anyway.

a very large proportion of them are non-students or postgrads tho

the support from academics is not insignificant

and they do have some sway in the university

the petition-signers shd maybe ease off on the 'central uni people are bureaucratic fat cats' stuff, which is a transposition of other gripes

Completely agree with this.

The wonderful Lindsey German is here talking to us at Slade, she will be heading over to the JBR at 3pm so go and visit!!
about 4 hours ago via web

ultimate facepalm

it's all going off now

damn just as I head to bed

kicking off in cam-town, i mean

good luck to the good guys, RIP, zzzz

14.00 The Governing Body of King’s College is set to announce its ‘deep concern at the undue haste with which the government is proceeding to enact legislation to change the principle upon which the funding of higher education is based.’ King’s is the first institution of its kind to enter the debate. Although the occupation was not directly addressed, the Governing Body says it believes that ‘the proposed changes have the potential to inflict irreversible damage upon our culture of education, learning and research.’ The University of Cambridge will announce its position on the matter after a University Council meeting on Monday.

Interesting...this is the kind of thing that needs to happen.

http://yfrog.com/ma76q0j

London's art students are occupying Tate Britain. Turner Prize-giving starts in 10 minutes... one hopes. Bet the Otolith Group are going XD XD XD right now.

Apparently the winner has voiced support for the students. Something about this particular action has made me ridiculously happy.

Is LJ protesting in London on Thursday? I can't decide whether to go as I've been getting worse and worse with dealing with crowds of late. But I know if I don't go I'll regret it.

I might well be! As long as I manage my time well and don't have an inescapable need to work or sleep! We should say hi if we both do end up there

Apparently the winner has voiced support for the students. Something about this particular action has made me ridiculously happy.

same here.

didn't tracey emin come out as tax-hating tory this year or something?

FAP! (Fancy a Protest, obv.)

And yeah, I believe Emin was certainly whining about taxes, not sure if she came out as full-blown Tory though, might just be a libertarian wank.

i hate people who make shitloads of cash off their free university education and then aren't willing to pay for the following generation to enjoy the same advantages. she can get to fuck.

you mean a right-libertarian wank haha (which is, in practice, the contradictory and awful mode of libertarianism we see in Britain)

tracey emin is a terrible fucking artist first and foremost

She did, and ought to be shamed wherever she goes. I knew her well in the '90s and it beggars belief that someone who was completely saved by art school education and sustained by teaching work before she went BOOM could be so blinkered. Most of the yBAs came from working-class backgrounds. The equivalent person trying to go to art school today would have a tougher time than her contemporaries did, the difference being *they* don't seem to have forgotten.

Susan Phillipsz said that education was a right, not a privilege and condemned cuts to the arts. Nicholas Serota and Miuccia Prada also added support in their remarks and there were huge cheers from the crowd when the latter did.

Apparently Anjali from Otolith Group went out and gave a speech to students in support and now cops won't let her back in the Tate. OMG she will be FUMING.

Susan Philipsz was the right winner fwiw.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11946532

acland burghley!!

i don't know why acland burghley is surprising.

The NUS glowstick vigil is something of the lamest shit I have ever heard.

*some

there was a great camden school 4 gurls girl on channel 4 news

do i go to the protest tomorrow y/n?

worried about cuts in funding to humanities subjects

feel like lamer science students are making all the running in this world

otoh deprecate most other work in the humanities

burghley is not surprising so much as delightful!

feel like lamer social science students are making all the running in this world

fixed

i can get behind that

went with 'not going and getting some bloody work done'

mildly angsty about it but hey-ho

this is cool: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=113314616990789414427.000496f96fd6739e0982d&ll=51.506338,-0.126847&spn=0.003599,0.009645&z=17

All kicked off. Box seats from our office window. Nice to see Parliament Square occupied again. It's not been the same since the Tamils left.

Demonstrators throwing fireworks, flares, canisters & bottles on both sides of pol ines. Pol responding in riot gear with occ baton charges.
4 minutes ago via web

blimey

alternately

And now the kids are all raving to dubstep. Dubstep the soundtrack of this movement. All the teens know the words.
2 minutes ago via Mobile Web

way to fuck with my loyalties, pen

ny

lol you and penny with your cute nicknames

He just turned into Paul Nicholas off "Just Good Friends"..

1414: Conservative Ben Gummer says "the tenor of the debate is doing more to put off aspiring students" than anything contained within the proposals.

lolz

tbrr, the plans *are* *kind of* *in certain respects* (like the higher threshold) better than the status quo, which is really bad -- labour have nothing to say on the issue

in other ways, obviously, it sucks, and all this is really is a pfi scheme, taking spending on higher education off the books and doing it with borrowed money

what are your politics mayne, are u down with a particular team?

no

well, i mean, "not the tories" obviously

dont count the lib dems as an actual party

"the tenor of the debate is doing more to put off aspiring students" than anything contained within the proposals.

thought they wanted fewer people going to college

mayne is UKPILX's hard-ass quite-liberal quite-centrist voice of know-it-all iirc

but he does know his shit tbf

rly want to go to this now for a few hours but I have so so so much work to do :(

I think the high threshold is a red herring. It just makes the debt worse. Interest will accumulate whilst you are not paying back making the debt burden worse. Do a PGCE or worse a Phd. and you'll get hit with repayments on a bigger sum when you get your first job. You'd have to stay under £21,000 (inflation adjusted) all your life or get hit with the repayments. At least with the current system you start nibbling away at the debt sooner.

At least with the current system you start nibbling away at the debt sooner.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:44 PM (16 seconds ago) Bookmark

telling the wrong guy. my debt is higher now than it was when i left [via interest]

http://twitpic.com/3ecfu7
http://twitpic.com/3ecg97

my debt doesn't exist lalalala

(apart from the odd year, i've mostly worked from week-to-week or freelance... hard to pas as you go on that basis)

jesus, david lammy is bad

raising tuition fees by 300% in 2004 was somehow nothing like doing it again

i haven't paid off any of my student loan. £17k.

nice to see the police with their faces all covered up. well, it *is* cold, poor dears.

This is one of my many gripes with a loan system, it penalises those with least ability to pay; those, who is purely economic (NewLab/Thatcherite) terms benefit least from university. As we well know, history mayne has returned to being a student waster, but many others with degrees and low incomes have contributed a lot to society.

Graduate tax is a red herring as well it still penalises those who go to university and choose a low income career. We have some pretty fair ways of making sure those who benefit most from society pay most to fund it (in theory); income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax and inheritance tax..... (you know how the rest of this rant goes)

corporation tax, capital gains tax and inheritance tax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXf0yIRcdnI

there seems to be a little more than 'scuffles' going on eh mr bbc

The police have just beaten a Guardian journalist. Not a good move for your jobbing practitioner of brutality.

not going to post 'hope it was tim dowling'

lol BBC homepage
http://static.bbc.co.uk/homepage/ic/mediazone/strap/www/image/p00cmgmf_640_215.jpg

looks like someone's knocked a cop off his horse

Amy Martin-Madeley in Cleveland, Ohio, US writes: "In a way I can understand the anger and resentment behind the protests, but having just graduated from a university in the US I cannot really sympathise with what in my view are still pretty cheap fees at £9,000 a year.

Give them a chance Amy. How much are fees in the USA anyway? I expect this has already been asked.

It's one of the more expensive ones even for America but Georgetown, where I studied for a year as an exchange student appears to be pretty steep. From their website:

The total cost of undergraduate tuition, fees and average room and board for 2010-11 will be $52,443

kid being taken away in a sling with 'head injury'

Having said that:

"According to "College Board", the average tuition price for a 4-year public college in 2008-2009 is now $6,585 compared to 2004 where the price was slightly above $5,000. The average price of in-state tuition vs out-of-state tuition for 2008-2009 was $6,585 for a in-state 4-year college to $17,452 for out-of-state 4 year college (collegeboard.com)."

horses charging crowd

they're trying to get them... back into parliament square. where they were trying to remove them from.

poor horses, getting in the middle of all this

yes

Really hope I don't die and somehow come back as a police horse, looks like a pretty shitty existence.

bbc reporter has donned his crash helmet

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/12/9/1291909208918/nograb.jpg

i really wish i was down there & not in the office - am barely getting my work done as it is

yeah i'm just watching tv, twitter feeds, it's just kind of sad

also warm

still, when i read cfps like this, received earlier, i kind of think 'abolish unviersities'

Both Cinema and the Museum share an ambivalent relationship between the past and the
future: while safeguarding, documenting and archiving the past is a part of
their shared role, the shifting technologies and modalities of cinema and
the museum are also instantiating fundamental changes to what constitutes
the very concepts of 'Cinema' or 'The Museum'.

TV images look a bit ominous TBH

http://twitpic.com/3ed5tq

that's a pretty big fire

Fucking HUGE fire in the middle of Parliament Square.

http://twitpic.com/3ed5tq

Unbelievable.

idk, im not buying that story just yet tbh

at least, not at face value

kimbeyp about 48 minutes ago
I get really hacked off when people use their disability or other.. to get away with stuff.

Yeah maybe not, we'll see.

Lighting a huge fire in a confined space is not clever though.

this is the guardian:

4.42pm: We have an answer for the question posed at 4.02pm. The man pictured being pulled from his wheelchair is Jody McIntyre who, coincidentally, was interviewed in the Observer last month.

I spoke to his brother, Finlay, who says Jody was actually pulled from the chair twice. The first time was near Parliament Square when police insisted he move from close to the front of their lines. Three officers, he said, picked Jody up and dragged him away.
The second was nearer the river, when officers insisted he and Finlay were in danger near police horses. This time, Finlays says, his brother was pulled bodily on the ground across the street.

Protestors standing behind Ben Brown aren't really doing their cause any favours. I think maybe one of them managed to get his point across without looking like an idiot.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/205563889.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1291916275&Signature=EZOlPZmzAym0dVfa%2BQlrW4h3vU4%3D

So the MPs are voting now, right?

323-302

kicking off again

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/205635849.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1291929954&Signature=Wugg%2FrmF2fgVJLkrAdqXHOfDa4E%3D

media being all "how do you condone burning a bin, young man" doing my head in.

'well, it's a load of old rubbish, innit'

'i burned a bin like nick clegg BURNED MY FUTURE' - a student

won't somebody think of the bins

time was you could burn a bin in the street

i frightened a horse on the street once

I made it out alive. Am too drained to write about it at any length, but it was pretty horrible by the time we got out. We got out by hiding in a doorway as the riot police followed by horses pushed down the road, and they elbowed us behind the line in order to attack a woman who was trying to get out too. Grabbed her by the hair and were trying to get her on the floor the last I saw.

glad you made it out, emil.y.

yeah

would you believe, the msm is barely reporting the amount of violence from the police

they tend to concentrate on the protestors

That woman speaking on behalf of the police is... truly a Special Child.

Is she the one being all "I'm very very disappointed in you" to the protestors?

the one saying 'if you have any control over them, give them a call and tell them to go home'

'i blame the parents' on another level

"Prime Minister David Cameron said it was "shocking and regrettable" that protesters had attacked the prince's car. "

oh just fuck off and take the bbc with you for printing this shit

also how are the people still being kettled on westminster bridge to go home?

Anyone else with a memory longer than six months remember how this time last year the papers were all parroting the Cameron line that Gordon Brown was going to cause a "winter of discontent" and all we had to show for it was a three-day strike by the posties?

Okay, I'm going to try to sort through the memories of today. Apologies in advance if this is long and rambling but I have a terrible memory and would like to have as much down as I can get.

First, the march: I was just with one friend all day and due to us both being hungover we caught the wrong train and got waylaid in all sorts of comedic manners so we arrived as the march was setting off and ended up very close to the front. It was a really good atmosphere, lots of laughing during the chanting, and we had a couple of dayglo groan sticks to make silly noises with. A few times people branched off, but I'm not sure how much this was intentional, as we almost followed a group up the wrong road and I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to go off-march, no matter what the news reports afterwards say. But whenever a group rejoined the main march a large cheer went up and on our merry way we went.

Parliament Square part 1: The main square was fenced off when we got there so to avoid the crush we took a seat on one of the walls and watched the rest of the march enter. Did some placard spotting, cheered for the universities we recognised, etc. The best guys were some schoolkids and SOAS members who had drums and were doing a little dance as they came in. It didn't take very long at all for the crowd to tear down the fences and take over the square, but as we had every bloody right to be there to protest I really don't understand how such action could be frowned upon. To be honest, I suspect they only put up fences for them to be taken down so they could accuse the protestors of being violent. After that happened it settled down again pretty quickly, and people were just milling around doing a bit of chanting. A couple of colourful smoke bombs went off but nothing to indicate any major aggro. We both needed the loo so went off and found a pub for chips and a quick drink.

Parliament Square part 2: As we were walking back a fair few extra police vans were coming up the road, and we could tell it was riot police. People were getting kettled already. Some fences were knocked over to try and free people and make a walkway over an open pipeline. We entered into a bit of a dance and singsong behind the riot police, before one of them turned round and told us we could go in if we wanted to, as 'we're not stopping anyone, you're all free to come and go' (ha). Seeing as we'd seen them stop plenty of people leaving we were sceptical but decided to go in anyway as it didn't feel like we'd really represented the cause that much so far. The crowds inside felt a little sparser than they had been before but it was still pretty nice. The sunset was a gorgeous pink and the small fires were glowing, as fresh-faced kids were still waving flags and grinning and playing music. It felt a bit like a mellow evening at a festival.

Parliament Square part 3: We wandered around a bit more - had a look to see if we could get out at one of the corners but the police were blocking us and everyone was a bit squeezed in... I think this was when the first stone went through the window of the Treasury(?). A few people tutted but nothing else happened so we went off and found a group of college kids by the George Canning statue who let us share the warmth of their fire. Everyone was really friendly and we were all chipping in with bits of paper and twigs; a couple of guys had gathered loads of placards and were going round each fire giving a few away. The mood seemed to turn very quickly. Some fireworks were let off in the centre of the square, then some guys fairly close to us put at least one aerosol can in their fire and caused an INCREDIBLY LOUD explosion, then at some point soon after we saw massive billowing black smoke and flames from the square. At this point I started shitting it and honestly thought the whole place was going to go up and we'd all be trapped and burning inside the kettle. We finally realised it had been a plastic security box we'd seen tipped over earlier, so although it looked terrifying it was probably localised and not as dangerous as we'd feared. However, some of the 16-year old girls who we'd been standing with were very shook up, as were we, and it was coming up to 5pm - we realised we didn't actually want to stick around for the results as things could go very bad very fast. So about five of us tried to beg the police to let us out, but although these ones were civil, they said they weren't going to let anyone out for at least an hour and probably more, and to try the other side (this instruction became fairly recurring). The other side was packed, and the younger girls decided not to try for it, but as me and my friend were picking our way through several people told us if we kept going we'd be able to get out. Being good citizens we ran back through the growing insanity to try to find them and impart the information, and all went back together. We got quite a long way up the road and it looked like we'd be able to leave...

Parliament Square part 4: ...until a massive group of police horses started charging at the disparate crowd of entirely peaceful people who'd had enough and wanted to go home and all really needed a wee, thanks police for ruining a generation's bladders. There followed a period of time where the main thing that happened was horse charge-stop-horse charge-stop until we were forced to be back near the tube stops at the entrance to the square. I almost lost my phone in this bit as I'd lent it to a guy to ring his grandad when they charged and we all had to belt it further up the road, but we managed to reconvene and I got it back. The younger girls were even more scared than we were and we ended up losing them during one run. I really wish we'd exchanged numbers so I could know if they got home okay. By the time the horses had stopped we were on the pavement, blocked off from a bunch of riot police and VERY agitated protestors by a wall on which a bunch of photographers stood. Some of the protestors weren't helping the situation - my friend saw a policeman get knocked down by a bit of concrete block thrown, and I saw someone chuck a lit flare at the horses. Having said that, these police were pretty damn mean, and the general tactics employed throughout the day had made it something of a hothouse for tempers rising. Oh yes, I forgot to say that tear gas seemed to have been used in the bit they were forcing us towards. Lovely. We figured that the best tactic to avoid police brutality might be to stand next to the more normal officers, who the riot and horse police would be less likely to mow down in an attack. We could get up the road a little bit again, so tried to find a group who had been less threatening. Finding the way relatively clear we figured we should see if we could push on through to the end. Hmmm. Lo and behold, a fucking shit-ton of riot and horse police were coming at us again. This time we ducked into a doorway to try not to get crushed by the running people and maybe avoid being pushed into the square.

And finally: We got out by hiding in a doorway as the riot police followed by horses pushed down the road, and they elbowed us behind the line in order to attack a woman who was trying to get out too. Grabbed her by the hair and were trying to get her on the floor the last I saw.

just got back. (not been kettled all this time, was at anna's house unwinding.) just gonna splurge a bit here while i can still remember the details.

first three parts, much the same as emil.y's experience. we spent much of the time dancing by the reggae soundsystem in the middle of the square - it was so much fun, and the carnival/festival vibe was exactly it. among the songs played:

gyptian ft. nicki minaj - hold yuh
vybz kartel ft. spice - romping shop
major lazer - pon de floor
rihanna - rude boy
nicki minaj ft. eminem - roman's revenge
sean paul - get busy

we didn't try to leave parl sq until just around/after 4pm, but each exit was blocked with a line of riot police. i think a few minutes earlier we'd have got out fine - some people we were with did. we milled around quite a bit after that - the whitehall exit was where tensions seemed to be rising most, we heard about a police line being broken, another group of protesters coming from outside, the charge. we were at that exit when news of the vote started to filter through, which was also when people started to get really sick of being filtered. despite the tension nothing seemed to be happening, so we went back into the main square.

some boys were wheeling around a soundsystem and getting pretty rambunctious but not really violent or ugly yet. two of them had their shirts off (and had banging bodies fyi) and were dancing on posts to 50 cent, jme and lethal bizzle. this was at about 5pm, going by my twitter timeline.

i think things started to really kick off between 6-7pm. earlier i'd seen a couple of random windows getting smashed, and said i was surprised it wasn't happening more, given how long we'd been kettled. it was all focused on the treasury: less mindless thuggery and more focused anger in response to the psychological acts of violence that were the police strategy and, for that matter, the govt vote. most ground floor treasury windows got smashed eventually.

things started to get really serious when protesters looked like they were able to climb in through one of the windows - by this time there were swarms of riot police inside the building. then the DOOR started to be targeted, and was broken off its hinges - it kept swinging open and closing again. protesters were breaking up the fences that had fallen on parliament sq (nb: these were totally meant to have fallen) and using them, and the bricks that had weighted them down, as weapons. the chant - an excellent and pertinent one, unusually - was "we want our money back". every so often, riot police would charge at the crowd.

all of that only happened after a long period of kettling and after news of the vote, and certainly wouldn't have happened without the former. it makes me completely sick to read condemnation of those actions that doesn't take into account what caused them. if anything, i think we're lucky there wasn't much more severe violence. anyone could have brought a proper weapon to the protest, and i wouldn't be surprised if some of the more active elements of the crowd realised that next time they could do exactly that.

after a while we moved away, and from a distance it seemed to die down - presumably arrests were made. then, a looooooooong-ass period of moving from exit to exit in the hope of being let out. eventually the westminster bridge one started to move, and then you know about the 1.5hr kettle we endured there, for no justifiable reason at all as far as i can see. it makes me livid that the police probably won't even have to acknowledge this, let alone explain or apologise for it. everyone on the bridge was peaceful and pretty docile, all things considered.

at 10pm, just after news went round that the kettle was live on the bbc, we started to move forward. this ceased completely after 10 minutes or so, suspiciously - almost as though they just wanted to show movement to the live cameras.

as angry as the actions of the police and government made me feel, it's the completely fucked way today was reported in the media that's the worst thing. how dare the bbc devote its concern to charles and camilla's car getting a little bit bumped when you have 1000 peaceful protesters, many of them minors, in the 6th hour of a kettle - now in the coldest possible location, with absolutely no justification?

- funniest thing i overheard may have been a kid running up to the riot police (way before things kicked off) saying "officer, my mum's on the phone! she says i have to go home!" and holding his phone out for the officer to get a bollocking from his mum
- on my eventual way out, a police officer said "as long as you keep demonstrating, we'll still have jobs". i would happily stamp on his throat repeatedly.
- those kids dutty wining in parliament square in the afternoon were the BEST.

also, i had a really good time. i'm knackered but it's a feeling like i've just had a really intense workout - thanks 4 making me stronger, as xtina would say. so any aim of dissuasion on the met's part has FAILED.

and watching righteously furious kids try to storm the treasury was pretty exhilarating.

Yeah, I think we got out about 6pm, so missed the worst. Was shaking all the way home, still. I did actually have a little cry after I realised we were genuinely out. So sorry to hear you got caught in the Westminster Bridge kettle - from what little info I managed to gather it sounded just horrific.

And yep, when I got in I couldn't believe the coverage of the Charles and Camilla thing - it's a bit of white paint, boo hoo, and also what the hell were they doing there?

On a lighter note:
among the songs played:
vybz kartel ft. spice - romping shop

Aaaaaaah I love this song so much and would have been made up to hear it today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11965245

nick robinson is such a cunt

from what little info I managed to gather it sounded just horrific.

i was more bored than distraught - physically by that point i'd got to the stage where i couldn't really feel anything any more, totally numb, so that was whatever. and luckily we were really near the front of it - feel so sorry for the people at the back. i was mostly concerned about my phone battery running out. of course for kids and people w/trains to catch etc it was unconscionable.

worst thing was how it came just after they let us out of parl sq - everyone thought they were FINALLY FREE, and then the gates slammed shut again. honestly i can't think of a single excuse for it, and it's infuriating that the met won't be called to account.

oh yeah donaeo's "party hard" and princess nyah's "frontline" also played! god the reggae/funky/grime/r&b soundsystem was THE BEST THING

gonna read these accounts again when I wake up and am not addled by essay deadlines (still!) but good on the both of ye and glad you're home ok :)

my younger brother had a pretty eventful time at this, apparently. am proud of the dude.

oh yeah i can't face going back to it but today's daily mail headline is a treat. truly special. when i saw it i think i went a bit loopy and just laughed hysterically for about 5 minutes.

Shame on you for not coming. Tut tut. Although probably wise, as god knows how long they would've kept you away from your essayage.

Right. I should try to sleep.

julian essayage pun is a solemn duty but one that must be fulfilled

Right so previously, at a protest rally, police leave a dummy van for the trashing of, and get lots of pics to discredit the protestors. That failed because they ended up with schoolgirl protestors forming a ring around it and everyone wonders 'oh where are the numberplates?'

Now, they have a member of the Royal Family driven 'accidentally' into the area, and the pics show them looking all "oh", without any actual protestors in the pics.

Hmmm...

Next up, someone tells Nick Clegg the wrong address for some award ceremony or something...

Met Pol Commissioner on Today this morning: "The officers who were protecting the Royal Highnesses showed very real restraint. Some of those officers were armed." :O

shooting protestors = lose for govt.

PCharles with injury = win for govt.

xps
Actually that was my first thought too but it's far too clever for the Met. And there is actual footage of it being attacked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11965681

Heh, that video appears to be right on Argyll Street. That protestor must have been lost.

Yeah, the police probably thought the most dodgy bit of the journey would have been the first bit from Clarence House.

the press today is unbelievable. so many barefaced lies and misrepresentations, and so much stuff just NOT REPORTED. we were hearing stuff about the trafalgar sq xmas tree being set on fire, and topshop getting smashed up - why am i not reading about any of this? why is the westminster bridge kettle being described as containment of potentially violent protesters that the met was forced into, rather than an inexplicable and unjustifiable punishment of non-violent protesters (including - and this can't be restated enough - many CHILDREN) employed after they had been shepherded, without incident, out of parliament sq?

apparently someone was on the news last night talking about the toilet facilities the met had provided. THERE WERE NONE. NONE.

xxpost Surely surely there could have been a way to prevent driving right through a full-blown protest? Set up.

Maybe the driver got lost on the ten minute drive or decided to rip off the rich-looking couple in the back of his limo by going 'round the houses?

http://imgur.com/u4DZ4.png

Yeah, this is the police we're talking about and we've already established they're none too bright. When you're a bunch of thugs, you don't have to be smart, since hitting people solves all problems, ever - and blaming kids for getting slapped since their faces are in the way is SOP. And that asshole policewoman with her 'Because they did X, this PROVES Y' rhetoric - no it doesn't, please get your polyester arse out of my face and solve some burglaries or something.

Genuine LOLs at all these people working up to a state of high dudgeon eg. OMG THE HEIR TO THE THRONE - well, I am here to tell you that nobody really describes Chuckie as heir to anything on the reg, so this is some amazing first.

C&C definitely getting more respect than they ever have from the press, yeah

I don't think they drove Charles and Camilla through the the protests with ther sole intention of making the protestors look bad, dudes. That would be insane.

these accounts are amazing, thank you lex and emil.y

yup co-sign

I don't think it was intentional either but there were a few routes that could've avoided crowds of any kind - I assume they weren't the only VIPs going to the Palladium last night.

Glad to see you're safe, Lex- spent all day yesterday marking pitches and making the oxtail stew for today. Also, thanks for reminder to grab the Major Lazer CD.

OH NOES THERE'S SOME PAINT ON A DAIMLER, EVERYBODY BUNCH YOUR UNDIES!

re the picture upthread :

http://www.rstewart.org/2010/12/10/disabled-journalist-pulled-from-wheelchair-by-riot-police/

and agree. lex and emil.y have provided a far more valuable insight into yesterdays events than i have seen elsewhere.
glad you both got out safely.

Saw both yr tweets all day yesterday so I'm glad to hear you both got out OK. Thank you both for speaking out about what actually happened.

It'd be nice to think that early misrepresentation(s) were a thing of the past, thanks to twitter/internet in general.

Although, it's still the "repeat often, becomes truth"...

Ironic LOLs also because Prince Charles is the one royal person who appears to give a shit about teenagers/young people/whatever - and it's one thing the press makes fun of him for.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/10/student-protests-police-come-prepared

"When we were told to move and stood our ground I was hit more than once on the head by a truncheon and by a falling barrier," said Francis Jagger, 19, who was dragged to safety bleeding heavily. The Leeds University philosophy and theology student had returned to his schoolboy haunts – he attended nearby Westminster school – in a party of more than 100 Leeds students. Last night he went home with a bandaged head.

I got pretty depressed at the BBC coverage last night, it ended up bring like what Sky News might do (didn't want to turnover to Sky because it was probably going to be worse).
The problem is that once someone starts to throw something or smash a few windows that becomes the news and the news doesn't remember anything else. Chaos.makes such a 'better' frontpage than accurate reporting. Though given the newspapers interest in publishing pictures of happy teenage girls at other times of the year maybe a few can be found to speak up about student fees?

I had been impressed all along with the peaceful way students have been trying to get their points across, but such a shame that a minority have to ruin it like that.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/12/9/1291909106058/Student-protesters-and-po-007.jpg

dude in the middle is almost certainly him fwiw - lol beard - me too tbf - anyway wdnt be surprised if the truncheon he was laid low with was the one being wielded by the policewoman right there

but srsly all speed 2 his health and all (he is mostly fine altho now back in leeds so hard to confirm) but I've been upstaged here haha

of course some had it even worse http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11967098

BJohnson's response is fair, certainly compared to the old MThatch's "our police are wonderful, repeat repeat" days...

What is it with philosophy students and being thumped over the head?