ILX Politics: Who's right wing? Who's left wing? Who's neither?

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Well?

― djtanner, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I can speak for Momus, as is traditional on ILX. He's obviously right wing, and if he tells you different, that's just a ruse. Any resemblances to him being a free thinking, troublemaking trickster/artist with communist leanings are deluded. He's right wing because I believe it, end of story. Oh, also he's really illogical. And I'm not.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 02:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm very far to the left on most things, esp. environmental issues, but also somewhat more of a pragmatist than most people who are as far left as I am.

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a radical moderate.

― Dale the Titled (cprek), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm more conservative than Momus, though. And while Quentin Tarantino was considered a cool movie director, I was busy watching Meg Ryan-type romantic comedies with Mom. And my favorite musical artist of all time is Duran Duran. And I actually like pink & white outfits.

So why the bloody hell am I still here with all you cool kids, then?

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, that's right -- it's kinda fun going against the grain. Carrying around an unpopular political stance + being a hopeless square amongst a bunch of cool kids = Fun With Antagonism!

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Fun With Antagonism doesn't work when the "Cool Kids" don't find you antagonistic, though.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

OT: hey colin is your above email address valid? gotta send something to you

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i am deeply suspicious of all political ideologies.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm well to the left. My heroes were George Orwell, Eugene Debs and Emma Goldman when I was a teenager. (And still are to a major extent, esp. Orwell, but I'm rather apathetic/nihilistic about the whole shebang, and find the modern, pansy-ass American Left to be something I want no part of.)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

deeply, frightfully, arm-the-citizenry, banish welfare, have your uncle's baby, where's my motherfucking oxycontin right wing.

― Aaron A., Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd consider myself farther to the left than most americans. however i have no plans to live in a tree or chain myself to an oil tanker any time in the near future.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Fun With Antagonism doesn't work when the "Cool Kids" don't find you antagonistic, though.

Aw man, I need to try harder then.

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

If you asked me my opinion on any political topic, I'd probably come across as pretty liberal but I don't really think about politics much. Life's too short, man. *puffs illegal substance, ignores petition to legalize illegal substance which sits in front of him*

I'm glad not everyone is as apathetic towards politics as I am. However, it's generally the people who have views totally antithetical to mine that seem to get heavily into it.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 03:56 (twenty-one years ago)

this pretty much repeats what i've said elsewhere on ILX ...

... i consider myself to be a pragmatic liberal or (my new favorite) an angry/radical moderate. i used to think that i was further left than i really am -- but election 2000 and encounters with certain Green Party enthusiasts forever cured me of that delusion. overall, the older i get the more disgusted i become with extremists on both the right and the left -- i don't want the country in the hands of bushco or hempco.

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:04 (twenty-one years ago)

i want the adults and the sane to run things again. let the children and the lunatics go off and build their utopias somewhere else ... like Novaya Zemlya, Mars, or Utah (same difference).

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

The problem there is equating radical views with the Granola Mafia. I probably had the same encounters with those types at various times, but I haven't let them change my politics, it made me want to take back 'the Left.'

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i tend to agree with socialism as an economic ideal and i like to keep the world clean, so call me a lefty. although i am done arguing politics because it is oh so tiring and goes nowhere.

― todd swiss (eliti), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes it does, you pinko.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:29 (twenty-one years ago)

milo, if you can get rid of the "granola mafia" (great phrase, BTW), then you will have done yer part as a gentlemen and a citizen. i would recommend giving the lot of 'em a one-way ticket to one of those islands in the white sea where the russians dumped all of their nuclear waste and dud missiles during the cold war, but when i become Vice Dictator of Earth i've reserved that spot for the religious fanatics.

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:34 (twenty-one years ago)

i find my self disgusted by the instutions of power, and those who wish to replace them. I hate convetion and nostalgia. My politics are closer to debord and foccualt then they are to anyone else. i cant change the world, i wont let the world change me.

― anthony easton (anthony), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

From: Lord Custos, Dictator of Earth To: Little Big Macher Re: Plan for Religious Fanatics.

Very ambitious. I will now add you to my Executive Cabinet, Little Big Macher. Begin setting up the Stalag at the Island of Woe. Take as many of my Construction Minions as you feel the project requires.

(xpost)

― Lord Custos Omicron, Dictator of Earth (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Man, those crazy fonts do it for me every time!

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 04:41 (twenty-one years ago)

ryan otm upthread

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 08:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i am deeply suspicious of all political ideologies

Bit easy innit? I mean at a certain point there are choices to be made. Perhaps not in the West, today, but this is still a crazy line of thought, and probably untenable, in that there is not such thing as 'unideological thing'.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I consider myself to be pretty far on the left on most issues, but Momus has insisted that all Americans = hardcore conservatives.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Left I guess. I am extremely left on issues of law I think. However economically I think I'm not so left, possibly through ignorance but that would be what someone arguing with me from the left would say.

On a personal level I feel slightly right, I often think people should "pull themselves together" and things like that. They should though.

I am left wing I suppose but sometimes it's so hard, I hate the wet outrage and the moralising and the intellectual snobbery and the predictable targets and same old same old books etc. I think this is a Uni thing though.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 09:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm just fed up with the concept of left and right and i'm inclined to stay in the middle as exact as possible because i can see the pros and cons and the left and right arguments on most issues as long as ALL the information is accessible

that's probably quite a lefty thing to say tho ;)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know
Is there a quizzilla for this?

I expect I have some beliefs that would fall into either camp but also beliefs that would get me barred from both.

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

World's Smallest Political Quiz

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:26 (twenty-one years ago)

s/smallest/most biased/

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Left-Liberal according to that. Which is as much as I'd expected. I voted Lib Dem and will continue to do so as long as our local Lib Dem counsellors and MP are decent, trustworthy people whose ideas I agree with.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Biased" just means you're a lefty. See how well it works!

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Would anyone on ILE actually stand up and admit that they were right-wing, if they were?

I have many different beliefs which sometimes adhere to various aspects of the "wings" to the point where it's meaningless to try and fit with one. I believe that individual things should be decided on individual cases, rather than applying a blanket belief system to all. (Which makes me libertarian swinging left, I guess)

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Dee, did, up thread in the right=conservative way and she has done before.

I am a bourgeois-socialist-liberal-radical

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Parlour socialist, moi.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

anarcho-syndicalist at heart, but old, and therefore pragmatic to some extent. God it's depressing.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm closest to Todd and Tad, I think. I haven't got the patience by and large to deal with the radicals on the left whose principles are impossible to put into practice, though I may well agree with their ideals. Nationstate told me I was more pragmatic and pro-socila engineering than I expected, though.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Culturally or aesthetically conservative != politically conservative.

This is Momus's error again and again.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

armchair liberal, me. we had a new 'introduce yourselves' thread not too long ago where most ppl had their political affiliations attached. i think i said the same thing.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh, right you are Mr W.

To answer the question: left, sometimes extremely so, but with caveats.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, the difficulty with them quizzes is the use of language, non? To describe x-policy as 'social engineering' is already loading the dice, is it not, because the assumption is that 'the market' never engineers, that it is the hidden hand of nature, and that x-policy is unnatural. Which might not be the case.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I consider myself a liberal Republican/conservative Democrat. That quiz of bnw's I took said I was Left-Liberal.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Moderate (by American standards, which dismayingly-to-my-self-image means somewhat rightist by European ones, I guess), either because I'm in the middle of the road for an issue or because I lean one way for some things and the other for others. I've voted Republican once, when voting against Ted Kennedy for Senator; otherwise I vote Democrat for federal-level and gubernatorial elections, and Democrat or third party for local/state-level things. I'm generally disappointed with the Democratic party, annoyed by the Republican party, and bewildered or creeped out by third parties.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:50 (twenty-one years ago)

dee does make the equivalence between cultural and political conservatism at leats thats the way I read her many postings.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

middle class radical, according to a rather lefty friend of mine

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

slightly left of center, altho, it ain't the easiest way to vote.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Christian Socialist.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Am I the only person that thinks it's weird to be able to describe the entirety of your political beliefs in one to five words?

― NA (Nick A.), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Nope.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it depends on whether you mean beliefs or actions; beliefs, sure, but in the States it's generally pretty easy to describe your voting and/or other actions succinctly.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Erm did anyone say they were describing the entirety of their political beliefs here?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Yesterday, I had this conversation with my boss:

MY BOSS: So, you didn't listen to the race this weekend?
ME: What race?
MY BOSS: WHAT?!?
ME: I mean, was it a car race or a horse race or...?
MY BOSS: A car race!
ME: Oh, I'm really not much into those.
MY BOSS: But I thought you liberals were open-minded!?

Make of that what you will.

― Sarah McLUsky (coco), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

we must work for the same bloke, sarah. thursday's conversation with mine:

me: mind if i take the rest of the afternoon off¿
boss: why - what are you protesting¿
me: er, well, nothing. uh, i was going to play frizbee.
boss: oh, fine. bloody liberals.

― dyson (dyson), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate the concept of "left-" and "right-" wing. As though there's only two directions things can go.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus the fact that the words "liberal" and "conservative", as they're applied to politics, are almost completely in opposition to the meanings of these words outside of political conversations, which is total mentalism as far as I'm concerned.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"left - right" is a trap that keeps us all down (including the powerbrokers)

think z-axis! somehow?! the world is 3 fuckin D after all!!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

remember the trapezoid analog

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

leftrightliberalconservative....BAH!

Here's what I believe courtesy of ex-Gubernatorial Candidate Robert Anton Wilson

Position Paper #1After refusing many pleas to run for governor, I have reconsidered and now enter the race as an unofficial write-in candidate. After all, why shd I remain the ONLY nut in California who ain't running? My party, the Guns and Dope Party, invites extremists of both right and left to unite behind the shared goals of 1) Get those pointy-headed Washinton bureaucrats off our backs and off our fronts too! 2) guns for everybody who wants them; no guns for those who don't want them 3) drugs for everybody who wants them; no drugs for those who don't want them 4) freedom of choice, free love, free speech, free Internet and free beer 5) California secession -- Keep the anti--gun and ant-dope fanatics on the Eastern side of the Rockies 6) Lotsa wild parties every night by gun-toting dopers 7) Animal protection -- Support your right to keep and arm bears More position papers will follow; we know at least 69 good positions Robert Anton Wilson Guns and Dope Party

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

*Trying to think of how to describe my political leanings in terms of a vector...*

― Dale the Titled (cprek), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

The people I knew in high school who were Robert Anton Wilson fanatics were the most boring people in the world.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

btw saying you're a "centrist" is VERY difft than saying you reject both left and right because it places you between left and right: you allow yourself to be defined by BOTH poles at once. it's the most beholden-to-party-politics of all possible positions.

Saying "not sure" or "no opinion" is a VERY STRONG POLITICAL STATEMENT though (especially so compared with saying you're a "centrist"). The "not sures" run this world!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm finding people who hold extreme, strident political views, on the right or the left, increasingly irritating (and no, I won't cop any alternate euphemism like 'challenging' or 'confronting'), but I suppose it is still easier for a conservative to bore or irritate me than for a 'liberal'. As political debate (such as it is these days) becomes ever more polarised it becomes ever less interesting.

RIP Jim Cairns 1914-2003

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

The people I know now who are Robert Anton Wilson fanatics are the only people who don't piss me off.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

ideologically i'd really like to be libertarian but when it comes to many specific issues i tend to lean left instead.

i like robert anton wilson! not a fanatic i don't think but once in awhile he restores my faith in humanity.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Political debate cd hardly get any less polarized, surely? In England people vot on like rilly important things like... whether people shd have the right to hunt (being against hunting apparently = being v left wing, even among otherwise sane canivores).

Maria - you can be both! Not all lefties are anti-fun, far from it.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Libertarianism lies out of the plane of left-right. Libertarian socialists and Anarchists, Anarcho-syndicalists, even certain flavours of communist and social democrat. Libertarian right wingers seem to be bible toting gun nuts who often seem to be opposed to the liberty of vast sections of society.

xpost

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

lefty from, like, birth.
still believe in "politics,"
mad as hell right now

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that's a bit unfair on the right-libertarians. It more that they are opposed to the liberty of their property.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Radical libertarian socialism, reprazent!

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:07 (twenty-one years ago)

we'll keep the black flag flying here

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

This makes no sense. Your distance to Pole 1 plus your distance to Pole2 will always equal the distance between Pole1 and Pole2.

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

At some stage I flirted with what's dubbed anarcho-capitalism, basically a pretty radical version of libertarianism, led by Milton F.'s son..

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

i.e. the "Let The Big Dogs Eat" school of thought

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't understand opposition to the left-right axis. It's not meant to describe your exact position in the realm of political beliefs, it's a general indicator. That's why I prefer it much more than the 2-axis (or God help us, the 3d) quizzes that purport to actually place you on a political grid with accuracy.

Those are bullshit.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

bnw in what way did I not make sense? Your post didn't clear it up for me, I'm afraid.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:14 (twenty-one years ago)

bnw is thinking in a line while Tracer is thinking in a plane.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I do not like green eggs and ham! I do not like them, Dan-I-am!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone is being defined by both sides. Centrists are merely split 50/50. Someone on the left might be 75/25 but they are still being defined 100% by the two poles.

("I was told there would be no math.")

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Conservatism - C or D? Or is it even a question? trapezoid/amorphous blob theory explained

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

godamned trackback ping, is there a flag which can disable them.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

(But wherever you show up on a plane, no one point can be "more defined" by the variables then any other.) (Okay, I will shut up now.)

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Ed what did they ever do to you?!

bnw I completely agree. I was just suggesting that "centrism" often gets confused with rejection of the left/right dichotomy, which is NOT the same thing at all.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I AM A BIG STINKY HIPPIE!!!!

PATCHOULI FOR YOU!!!! PASS THE BONG OMG WTF

HERE I BURNED YOU THE NEW OAKENFOLD ON MY BSD BOX

I HATE MY DADDY

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

bnw/Tracer analogy:

Compare it to having hate and love for someone. Having neither might mean complete indifference (perhaps because you don't even know them) or it might mean that you just think they're kind of OK.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

WHERE'S FRED DURST???!!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry Nick.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Saying "not sure" or "no opinion" is a VERY STRONG POLITICAL STATEMENT though (especially so compared with saying you're a "centrist"). The "not sures" run this world!

Must remember to slap "Undecided" on my next tie-dye shirt then. I always sensed I could own the universe, now's the proof.

To answer the question, I always put "Independent" on the ballot. I refuse to be influenced to vote a particular way. I'm aware that independent and undecided mean two separate things. For some reason both are always grouped together as one choice.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

There's also a centrist difference in that sometimes folks are "undecided" in that they really don't give much of a damn and other folks who are "undecided" in that they don't feel they've learned enough about something to side with the lefties/righties or even possibly "undecided" folks who feel that neither "side" of the divide offer anything worthwhile and that possibly there are other solutions to the problems at hand that *gasp* aren't even on the political table.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(Editorial clarification: most hippies find "Oakey" an insufferable breadhead)

My politics as a voter are Democrat but that's an Election Day thing. For all the other days I'm a social democrat in that I believe we should have universal free health care, freedom from censorship, freedom from oil wars and other forms of corporate welfare, measures to prevent the very rich from hiding their cash when the less well-off pay their full share of tax, and agree with Mr T. Hand that when corporations mutter darkly about loss of 'jobs' when asked to pony up responsibly, they really mean 'profits'.

My mum has voted Republican in every election bar one and still considers herself to be 'Independent' when she's nothing of the sort (unplug the Fox feed NOW, Ma).

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah Suzy OTM regarding hippies, as apparently the resident ILX hippy, I must stand up and say that I find Oakenfold's music ridiculously bland and mind-numbing piffle.

Oh and love of bongs /= love of patchouli either.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

OH SHIT MY PARODY WAS OFF BASE I MUST HAVE NEVER GONE TO HIGH SCHOOL

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

SORRY I MISSED YOUR PARTY TRAITOR HAND BUT I WAS TOO BUSY SUCKING OFF BEN STILLER THAT NIGHT, CAN I CRASH YR PLACE IN LONDON IN MARCH?

― Fred Durst, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I am a socialist. I hate it when people call me liberal.

― cybele (cybele), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Extreme left wing, except much more anarchist than socialist. That doesn't sum things up too well, but my fundamental beliefs are in freedom and equality, and they are at the bottom of anarchism and socialism. There is no perfect reconciliation of the two, but they are my basic touchstones, the underlying principles to which I relate things. I don't have a perfect society in my mind as some aim that I think can be achieved, I just have directions I want the world to move in, so I tend to oppose or support things not so much according to whether they take us to a right place as whether they are taking us in the right direction. For instance I'm opposed to capitalism and the things we call democracy, but I know the kinds of things I'd like in their stead are, at the very least, many, many generations away, so I'll just support checks on capitalism, improvements in government provision and so on, and support anything that gets more people more involved in making decisions.

Except I'm a lazy and apathetic bastard much of the time, and don't do a huge amount of opposing or supporting anything, except in conversation with friends, which doesn't achieve much.

Referring back to Anthony, obviously analyses of these things do tend to lead into Foucault's territory in particular, but I think he did tend to see everything in power terms, and I don't think that's a complete answer any more than Freud's seeing so much as sexual (this is reductionist towards both, but then again I think their thinking is reductionist towards the real world, so that's okay).

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

But anyway, real hippies aren't into politics, man, that's just how, you know, The Man holds us down brother. We need to like connect with the Earth spirit and then we won't even need government, man, we won't even need the word government.

*places bong back to bonghole*

*pontificates*

Woah man, heavy.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

The tests that order one along social liberalism and economic liberalism/interventionism axes are quite neat but limit 'social liberalism' to economically neutral libertarian issues. Things like one's position on welfare straddle the two axes in ways that muck up the apparent consistency of the economic and social liberal's position.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I misread you, Tracer. I reject both sides equally = I accept both sides equally. You're right, that's true. (I took that quiz in 10th grade and am still in the dead center, hence I must defend my centrism.)

― bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm, centre-ish. I guess. Hey remember that nation states game? I think I was a capitalist utopia at one time.

― autobot lover -- (jel), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh god... my mother's family were drunken socialists who got drafted into Vietnam and got spit at by money-protected hippies and my father's were devout Catholic immigrant draftees into WWII who stayed in the military cause they liked it (or because they didn't know what else to do?), so after hearing my parents argue politics for twenty years before the horror of Bush II finally united them in this weird way I can see just about anybody's point of view as long as it isn't too hypocritical for me to stomach... what I believe changes with every new piece of evidence I get. I lean left with my heart and most of my pragmatism organ (did supply-side economists all jerk off through high school econ class????) but sometimes, yeah, the shit "leftists" say makes it tempting to paint the whole side with the idiot brush. Just as it's occasionally tempting to call anybody who's NOT a leftist a drooling Nazi. You have to winnow out the useful bits of every kind of thought, I think. Sometimes I'm almost a sort of... monarchist. Nonhereditary monarchist, of course -- this is totally moving into the fantasy realm now...

BUT! what if you could cross Brett Favre with, say, somebody who really didn't WANT power at all with, say, somebody really brilliant and wise and courageous who loved humanity but knew its evil side as well... and then DRAFTED this person king for life? He [substitute the word "heshit" if the masc. pronouns peeve ye] would be balanced by some sort of legislature of course, in case heshit went batshit nuts or something; when said noble died his offspring would be disqualified from the next leader-choosing, to avoid degenerate dynasties. Oh yeah, and if he decided to start a war with another country he'd be required to see combat himself -- or at least send his kids. THAT would make 'em think twice. That would cover foreign policy; who would run the economy and legal system and social system? Laissez-faire capitalism? Probable DISASTER. Benevolent king MONITORING free market? Too much for one guy, especially when he might order himself cannon foddered at any minute. DAmn, once again the complicated world outthinks me... OK, I'm going to return to the Ren fair or the late-19th-century utopian think tank and cool my silly heels now... basically, I think the ruling class (and let's be honest, we're primates, unless we get a lot smarter there's always going to be one, and it should probably not include goofballs like me)needs to be subjected to DIRECT consequences of their actions. Er, and not just positive ones like making a killing off declaring war.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a Limousine Liberal.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

ugh, sorry: ")needs to be subjected to DIRECT consequences of ITS actions." Bad copy monkey.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a Limousine Liberal.

What's that, Spencer? Voting with the ballot lever in one hand and a glass of Bolly in the other?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't Spencer vote with his feet though?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

You will have to put a gun to my head to get me to vote Republican.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Charles Shaw Socialist.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/roofpatch.gif

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

*places bong back to bonghole*

For a second this was the most terrifying phrase ever written.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

RITE WING CONSERVATORS U R ALL GAY!!1111111 OMG WTF!!1111
TITOIST SELF-MANAGEMENT 4 EVAH!!! OMG LOL WTF 1111

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

not just positive ones like making a killing off declaring war.

was that intentional?

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

what lefty and righty extremists have in common: (a) a skewed and unrealistic view of human nature; (b) ignorance of and/or intolerance for how politics really work (which really boils down to lack of ability and/or desire to compromise); (c) standing firm on "principles" or "positions" that don't mean shit or make any sense to the majority of people; (d) a conspiratorial/over-arching view of the world, and the willingness to shoehorn all political phenomenon into said view of the world; and (e) they both like to shout a lot and drown out opposing points of view. the particulars differ (e.g., right-wing loons blame everything on Clinton, or the Negroes, and get all worked up about abortion/guns/taxes; left-wing loons blame everything on multi-national corporations, and get all worked up about hemp not being legalized).

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(You forgot left-wing loons being ridiculously condescending to the oppressed people of color, but otherwise I can't disagree.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I have little to add to Colin's opening statement on my behalf. Or to all the posts I've made on ILX in two years. Especially the contradictions between them.

I'm prepared to grant Kate's point about aesthetic conservatism not being exactly the same as political conservatism, but I think that if the second is the measles, the first is a suspicious rash of spots.

The tears of joy that well up in my eyes when Susan Sontag receives the Frankfurt Book Fair peace prize for her latest book championing the disadvantaged are mingled with tears of frustration that the disadvantaged have never heard of Susan Sontag, or, if they have, think of her as a traitor because of what she said about 9/11.

Actually, it's time we re-assessed treachery. That's the word Robert Wyatt used to describe his politics, and Robert Wyatt is my hero (though not the hero of The People). It's time we reassessed Robert Wyatt. And can't we, as Brecht suggested, dissolve the people and elect another one? Oh, but he was being sarcastic. If only I had the confident conviction of his sarcasm.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Robert Wyatt is my hero (though not the hero of The People

That is, of course, Robert Williams.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I totally lack a view of human nature - I must therefore lack a politics.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry, you're one of the most politically astute people I know (ie a New Traitor).

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure I know enough abt the world to ans this question.

(xp)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm a Limousine Liberal.
What's that, Spencer?

First I heard the term was reading about how it was used in Boston in the '70s as a way to criticize school-busing supporters who wanted integration even though their own children were in private schools or otherwise similarly unaffected.

I like the term as it critiques my own received bourgeois lefty leanings.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the term as it critiques my own received bourgeois lefty leanings.

But is it possible to be both a bourgeois lefty and a badass? Don't they cancel each other out?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

"And can't we, as Brecht suggested, dissolve the people and elect another one? Oh, but he was being sarcastic. If only I had the confident conviction of his sarcasm."

My ten clams say he wasn't being completely sarcastic... that's a tempting thought... heigh-ho, back to the Ren fair...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

champagne socialist, non?

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

moi!? Er... wee!!!

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

champagne socialist, non?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1700000/images/_1701527_abfab150.jpg

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

what if you could cross Brett Favre with, say, somebody who really didn't WANT power at all with, say, somebody really brilliant and wise and courageous who loved humanity but knew its evil side as well... and then DRAFTED this person king for life?

It's kind of you to ask, Ann, but I don't really WANT power at all. Oh, I mean, I do!

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Wascally wabbit!

Best socialist tract ever:

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

While a lovely term, "Champagne Socialist" implies activism, or at least activity, which politics rarely moves me to.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"...like a champagne socialista in the sky..."

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

BUT! what if you could cross Brett Favre with, say, somebody...

Ann, you've lost Minnesota RIGHT there ;-).

(Nick, she's namechecked the quarterback of the Green Bay [fudge]Packers, it's not tool ate to recant)

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

again, stylish passivity, apathy and resignation is where I'm at - maybe I should start reading VICE?

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

tool ate = too late, Dan to thread, duh.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"Green Bay [fudge]Packers,"

SUZY -- FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Wait -- is Suzy a HOMOPHOBE?! Ha HA!

I knew it. All Minnesotans are gay bashers.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

bret favre sux chad pennington rulz u bret favre and culpepper lovers r all gay!

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Minnesotans are very tolerant and understanding of everything except for other people from the upper midwest (particularly Wisconsin and Iowa).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"bret favre sux chad pennington rulz u bret favre and culpepper lovers r all gay!"

SO?! I'd rather be a quadraplegic than just CRAZY. Pennington, bah. How many blocks does HE throw? If he were king we'd all be typing in Martian right now.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Soffistry Korner: The packing of fudge is not just practiced by the homo sect, y'all.

(Dan's right, Minnesotans take exception to being lumped in with the cheeseheads and cornholers, ohh yah)

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, go peg yourself.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:58 (twenty-one years ago)

this many posts in on a thread about politics and we're JUST NOW getting to a discussion of quarterbacks?

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 17:59 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah and it's the GIRLS who started the GRIDIRON chat. Ann, I'm teasing. Only Chicagoans bust a gut over sports. Or in Wheaton, at least two guts.

Minneapolis gay scene is HUGE, BTW. It's because the bigots in the surrounding states run their hunky, sexually-unsure farm hands/smalltown boys the fuck outta Dodge and straight to Loring Park.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Right-winger: "The media would like this quarterback to succeed because he's black."
Left-winger: "RACIST!"
Joe Schmoe Football Fan: "Dude, neither of you know anything about football."

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe i should have said "donovan mcnabb" instead of "chad pennington." cause look at what happened to the last motherfucker who talked shit about donovan mcnabb.

to quote cinniblount -- DON'T FUCK WITH PHILLY!

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Donovan McNabb? More like Donovan McASS.

― Dan Perry (circa 1985) (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

"Right-winger: "The media would like this quarterback to succeed because he's black."
Left-winger: "RACIST!

Actually, I heard a really interesting convo about this topic on sports radio the other day. A mixed-race group was discussing how annoyed they were by the fact that the NFL/media tend to overpromote players who are doing pretty well at positions that not many members of their race hold. They seemed equally peeved by people defending a so-so black quarterback and a lukewarm white linebacker. Ill effects of good intentions? So, yeah: "neither of you dudes know anything about football, which kind of scares me since you're running the NFL!"

Football has loads of political relevance if you ask me.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

well, Ann, it's questionable that the Bears even play football at all, if I think I know who the so-so black quarterback and lukewarm white linebacker might be.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Bingo, point to hstencil...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Back when I watched a fair amount of American football, back in the '80s, the main talk of black quarterbacks was whether black men could ever make good quarterbacks! I don't remember the 'reasoning' behind this doubt.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Like I said... political relevance. What if I said "There may be a significantly lower percentage of black men who would make good quarterbacks, just as there may be a lower percentage of white men who have what it takes to be linebackers"?

Ho ho, this reminds me of Reggie White's infamous speech before the Wisconsin legislature...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

but Ann if someone was saying that in seriousness, it'd still is pretty flawed, mostly because it is assumed that being a quarterback is the more difficult position intellectually, while it is assumed that being a linebacker is the more difficult position physically. I don't know about you, but I'd rather it said that I couldn't handle tackling a 245 lb. 40-yard-dash-winning running back than have it said that I couldn't handle reading a defense. To insult someone's physical capability doesn't seem to be as nefarious to me as to insult their intellectual capability.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

neither joe montana nor johnny unitas were particularly bright, yet both are considered to be great quarterbacks. so how "intellectually difficult" can the position really be?

― Little Big Macher (llamasfur), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Oooh, you beat me, I was about to say (to hstencil)...

Dude, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT FOOTBALL!!!!

Why do you assume somebody who says "better QB" is talking about mental capability? They may very well be talking about mobility-to-size ratio or the way one's eyes are wired.

How nefarious does J.Q. Football sound now?

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Number of Ivy League quarterbacks: 1
Number of Ivy League linebackers: 2
Number of Ivy League centers: 4

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi.
Ivy League != smart.
Kisses!

― NA (Nick A.), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I wrote "...mostly because it is assumed...." While I'm not a football expert (and I don't play one on TV), I think it's generally safe to assume (and is usually agreed to have been the case, in the wake of Limbaugh's comments on McNabb) that there has been a common stigma against black quarterbacks because of the so-called "intellectual rigors" of the position. This stigma is wrong on multiple levels, not solely because, duh, black people have brains too, but also because maybe being a quarterback isn't that difficult (then again I wouldn't know, I've never played football at any organized level, and hardly at all besides a few pickup goof-around games with friends).

Geez.

Anyway, I'm a Democrat.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Shit, I think Dan Perry just proved that linemen are sissies.

Please don't tell Warren Sapp I said that...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

(and is usually agreed to have been the case, in the wake of Limbaugh's comments on McNabb)

You're aware... that Limbaugh may be a shtickmeister?

mmm, smell that fresh can o'worms...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

So, figure skating ...

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Shit, I think Dan Perry just proved that linemen are sissies.

Well, tis the rare Ivy Leaguer that worries about making QT. Somehow, "I was QT at Yale (or whatever)" might not excite the in crowd (if there was one)

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know about you, but I'd rather it said that I couldn't handle tackling a 245 lb. 40-yard-dash-winning running back than have it said that I couldn't handle reading a defense. To insult someone's physical capability doesn't seem to be as nefarious to me as to insult their intellectual capability.

Cause you're buying into the white man's value system!

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

that was a joke

― preemptive (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

damn me for missing all the Mpls talk...

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

right, and the Ivy League doesn't have football teams.

(that was a joke too)

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

(Sorry, I'm still giggling too much to contribute to this thread.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi.
Ivy League != smart.
Kisses!

and what would you know about it, Capone?
Kisses!

― northeast, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

you people are just asking for me to post photos from SEC games all over the place, aren't you? Actually that would kind of sum up my politics pretty well.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.southernsportstonight.com/images/400.jpg

― TOMDAWG, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

you could post photos from Ivy League games too and find to your shock that Ivy League colleges do indeed field full football teams.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

hstencil in being over serious shocker.

Columbia's football team is totally gay, for serious.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.phillipfulmer.com/multimedia/images/henderson01ala.jpg

― VOLBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

It's all that patting guys on the ass after big plays. Turns 'em gay!

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

But that's why their colors are lovely blues and silvers and whites. Gay people would not be seen in something as disgusting as that Tennessee uniform. What in the fuck.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

http://images.nfl.com/photos/features/img5848492.jpg

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess in fairness it's not as ugly as the old Bucs uniform, to go all professional on everyone for a minute. I mean that was some ugly ass bullshit. What kind of team picks salmon as their color? And that pirate! That's a serious crime against humanity, and this isn't even thinking about the Bengals or the Browns.

(haha xpost why we make Junior so sad!!!)

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

ALSO just FYI but Dan's point, while flawed in its elitist execution, is totally OTM: QB's are not by default the brightest of the bunch on the field nor do they need to be (half the playbook etc) and for fuck's sake people, JOE MONTANA. RICK MIRER. JAKE PLUMMER. ETC ETC ETC if this doesn't prove that QBs are morons what does?

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I MEAN BROADWAY JOE, PEOPLE.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

(Dan's execution was not entirely serious, seeing as Dan is like the first person to complain about stupid Ivy League people, ie GWB)

(also Ryan Leaf)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I WAS TEASING YOU MY FELLOW ELITIST IVY LEAGUE PRICK!! Taste the intelligence:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/photos/ap/1999/may/je5399.jpg

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bucs have nothing on Pennsylvania's pro teams (except for the Eagles).

The Pirates, Steelers and Phillies are the ugliest trio of teams in history.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

(the Ryan Leaf thing was for Ally's list of thicko QBs, in case people are staring at the screen thinking "Stupid. Fucking. Harvard-Boy.")

(also Ally, that was kind of a delayed xpost)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Genius:

http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0524/photo/r_dan_marino_sp.jpg

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

The Pirates, Steelers and Phillies are the ugliest trio of teams in history.

Are we still talking uniforms?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

let me qualify that - ugliest trio in one state

And yes, uniforms. I've hated the Pirates for as long as I can remember, because of those fucked-up striped hats they had in the '70s.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder what Brett Favre is thinking in this photo? Possibly about Kill Bill and the Republicanist implications thereof and how that relates to Foucault's "Panopticism"???

http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/football/nfl/img5882909.jpg

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry but none of those uniforms are as ugly as anything containing the color NEON ORANGE.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's Jake Plummer doing extensive NASA-funded testing on the theory of gravity!!!

http://www.ballenphotos.com/c271.jpg

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

OK I think I'm done now. Thanks for letting me get all that out of my system. Don't get me wrong, I like athletes and all. I mean, uniforms are hot.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that really the time? Well, it's been fascinating talking about politics with you.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I figured you'd enjoy that. That actually more aptly describes my political leanings than a 700 post argument would.

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

http://onestientertainment.com/pages/morrisday&time.jpg

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm NOT finished, forgot one important statement.

http://www.driko.org/smallpics/jimmcmahon.jpg

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.gridscape.com/volosity/tailgate.jpg

god I wish that was bigger

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.utvols.com/images/band/pride.jpg

― TROMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I have been part of this terrible thing on multiple occasions

http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~olesen/pictures/powerT.jpg

― TOMBONE, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow how dorky!!

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

DO YOU FEEL THE POWER MOTHERFUCKERS
http://web.utk.edu/~utband/marchingbandpics/fresnostatesplit.JPG

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

What does the T stand for?

― straight man (teeny), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.bleedburntorange.com/simms_horn.jpg

(missing the Oklahoma DB lurking just out of view about to knock him down and take the ball)

(haha, Texas' football futility RULES)

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The T stands for "Trying really hard not to call my boyfriend a total dork"

― Ally-zay, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

take two:
http://www.bleedburntorange.com/simms_horn.jpg

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

fuck this gridiron nonsense

here's a REAL right-winger

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/2002/08/14/euro_rdp/t1_beckham_ap.jpg

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

and on the radical left

http://www.iol.ie/~mmurphy/red_devils/profiles/photos/ph-11.jpg

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

C'mon, read Oscar Wilde's socialist tract!!!

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html

It'll save football uniforms from the ug, I promise...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how my series of pics follows the actual chronology of events. Old people get drunk, we march into the stadium, march up and down, form the 'Power T' then march up and down some more and make that goofy ass hollow T for the team to run through. Playing through 107,000 screaming drunks isn't easy plus the pregame show is basically 15 minutes of speedwalking with limited chances to inhale and those uniforms are all made of wool. We had 6 days of solid rehearsal before the season started (before CLASSES started) to learn that shit. I always felt sorry for the people who couldn't memorize the songs, I only kept my lyre around for appearances and didn't even have copies of the music half the time.

I have played 'Rocky Top' over four thousand times at least.

I quit after my second year. Tee Martin and Peerless Price immediately went out and won the national championship.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

if you ever start a football thread i'm gonna flood it with Chomsky essays, i swear!

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

See the funny thing is, people won't mind, the thread will stay on topic and not get hijacked because they WANT to talk about football, sports are interesting and it's something you can actually have a regular discussion about because there's not really any semantic arguments to be had.

Talking about your political ideology on ILX is 1. Hi this is the thread where you stereotype yourself horribly 2. oh and can we all misinterpret one another please and then argue about the language and the intent behind the language and oh isn't this your favorite thing in the world it's so much fun.

Vs. BOOYAH SKINS WIN AGAIN BITCHES

And that's all of my personal politics you folks need to know, I think.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Except I actually hate Steve Spurrier and the Redskins. Fuck them.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

And your views on figure skating homosexuals, TOMBOT?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Or should I call you 'chomsky@sucks'?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, adding to my other ideaologies, i am a pacifist (no i wont kill someone if they attack my family, i really dont care what you say about that either) and um, i am anti-gun, obv. um, pro-choice i guess, and i dont care if gay people get married, doesnt affect me. i guess that i dont care what people do as long as everyone gets a fair chance and doesnt hurt other people in the process.

― todd swiss (eliti), Tuesday, 14 October 2003 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

wow, the expected dearth of right-wingers. I usually consider myself a wingles extremist (in that i believe as strongly in the abolition of the death penalty and the liberation of animals from vivisectionist labs as I do in the second ammendment and the overthrow of the federal government) but by ILX standards, I'm probably as right wing as it gets. Big fan of squatters, anarcho-punks and the like, but generally side with the militias on most things.

― roger adultery, Tuesday, 14 October 2003 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the topic of straight figure skating males is more interesting than gay ones. Why do it? Do they feel unmasculine? Is it to pick up chicks?

― Ally-zay, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm under the impression that they're all down on their luck hockey players teamed with stuck-up prima donnas because none of the gay guys would work with her. Then, under the watchful eye of their stern-but-sensitive coach, they learn to work together and engage in will-they-won't-they banter.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Anthony, I kiss you.

― Ally-zay, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

how the hell did this turn into a college football thread?

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

How did it take so long?

UT v. A&M exemplifies the cultural conflict in Texas, no?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

nah, not really.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 02:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I find that it does, or did when I cared enough. The country-music afficionados and freaks who flew the battle flag were always A&M fans, the hippies and outsiders were fans of UT because Austin was I-Hate-the-Rest-of-Texas Mecca

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I for one could give a rat's ass about college football. I started rooting for the Packers when my mom finally explained to me why my family loves them so much: they're the only team in the the pros, as far as I know, that's actually owned by the citizens of its (tiny, isolated, industrial) town -- making their victories over teams like Dallas -- owned by big old asshole proprietors -- symbolic victories for the human spirit. Not to mention that QB Favre is a kind of philisopher-king within his sphere.

Yeah, I just called Dallas fans supply-siders and Bears fans failure worshippers; what of it?

Does sports fandom mesh somehow with political beliefs? Most people just root/vote for whoever their parents supported... others rebel... others think... sports being warlike, could they be an analogue to politics?

Or are people on this thread just having joke-arguments over sports because they don't feel unfriendly enough to pick at (most) ilxers' more serious beliefs?

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

ilxers' more serious beliefs?

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I for one could give a rat's ass about college football

I kiss you - mwah!

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Obviously you didn't go to UT. While I agree your assessment of Austin's stereotype is correct and concede that not every UT football fan is like this (my own, country-music-afficionado-self included) rabid orangeblood sportsfreaks are usually conservative, Greek, white, Jerry Jeff Walker fans. . .hey just like A&M football fanatics!

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Tom is the new jess!

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Obviously you didn't go to UT.
No, thank God. (That's not to sound jealous, like "Oh, I didn't get it, so I'm glad..." - I wouldn't have lasted three minutes at a 50k strong campus.)

And I'm not talking about the actual UT fans or A&M fans - just their iconography in Texas.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

And I'm not talking about the actual UT fans or A&M fans - just their iconography in Texas.

Don't make me bust out the Ghettopoly thread!

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

goddamn tom your vols got fucking reamed last saturday

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:54 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm generally against stuff

― duane, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah, I hate stuff, fhm, maxim, vice, all them fratmags

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i am a contextualist, operating within a socialist framework

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

pro-good! anti-bad! Abortions for some! Miniature American flags for others!

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha teeny!

"TS: Abortion vs A Miniature American flag"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Does that mean you give birth to flags? This is the weirdest image I've had in my head all day.

― Ally-zay, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, now you're talking smack about Stuff, too.

There will be blood, and not just goat blood.

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Flag pills! Eat the pill and you shit out a flag!

(David Cross-inspired x-post)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I still sort've believe that the economic base determines, in the last instance, the social superstructure.

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 16 October 2003 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

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