Does It Matter What's At #1?

The chorus - written by Timberlake apparently - is completely non-specific though. But it's still as explicit as "Ghost Town" was about rioting, and every write-up of that song mentions it getting to #1 that particular summer.

Personally I would like a BEP cover of Prml Scrm's 'Posturing Cunts, sorry, Bomb the Pentagon' with amusing pisstakes of the rebel rock canon to be #1.

here is you, yesterday, on one of the uk top ten threads: Basically, Black Eyed Peas have spent six weeks at #1 because they offer a nice anti-war singalong with which All Of Us Can Identify and besides Justin's on it and it's not on his album.

I'm not sure that ppl buy recs because they sum up, or express a truth abt, 'the times' - memory cld be playing tricks on me here, but the 'significance' of 'Ghost Town' reaching number one has always felt v. after-the-fact to me ('Free Nelson Mandela' might have actually had more of an 'effect' on public feeling/consciousness, and that never got anywhere near the 'top spot'.) Also, if 'progressive' recs reflect public 'feeling', then the same must be true of 'reactionary' recs (the SAW philosophy of 'fun, love, money' really did feel like Thatcherpop, even at the time)

Anyway, here some BEP-hate for ya, from NYPLM:

Why should the fact that some sad-sacks are still buying the Black Eyed Frigging Peas single outweigh the millions of right-thinking folk who HATE it?

Why are they sad-sacks cos they din't get it in week one? Most people don't have their ears glued to the radio, believe it or not, they buy stuff they like when it suits them. No-one says, Ohmigod, you've only just read 'Atonement'.

My comments yesterday were not negative.

"Ghost Town" was number one in the week of the Royal Wedding/Brixton-Southall riots. Accident of timing more than anything else, I suspect, but David Jacobs' pale, bewildered face introducing it on TOTP that week is something I have not forgotten.

"Nelson Mandela" got to #9 and went gold. In these days, getting to #9 was not like getting to #9 now (i.e. get your parents and grandad to buy it or have V Shop sell it at £2.99 for one week) - you actually had to sell records.

Black eyed peas though = rubbish, but then I didn't know it was even out yet never mind top of the charts for 5 weeks = I am old and out of touch. Actually probably not that much, I just get all my chart action from MTV these days, Radio 1 and their chart just have no part in my life anymore.

i think it's a method of roping the timid into consuming the work. "Hey, look! This is at #1! Everyone ELSE liked it, so you'll like it, too! Buy this shit, yo!"

"Why are you against the war?"
"Errrmm...because it's gay?"
"OK, and which part of war is most gay?"
"Errrmmm....blood for oil?"

But I still don't think that affects my argument -- the BEP are at no.1. Britain is still at war with Irag, as it has been for the last X years (how far back are we going?). There is a strong minority anti-war undercurrent in British cultural life, in a way that there hasn't been for all that time. The relationship between the two events is entirely contingent. I don't think people are buying it, record stations are playing it, people are requesting the video on the hits or downloading the ringtone because they're scared or angry. It'll be because it has a nice tune and -- the equivalent in ideological terms -- doesn't ask you to think too hard about the fact that whether you agree with it or not, whether you like it or not, you are always already complicit in the war which redistributes wealth from the poor areas of the world to the rich.

The connection between a no. 1 hit and its cultural context must always be allegorical -- it is invented by the commentator. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it means the success of such a link depends on how wittily, smartly and interestingly it's argued, not on the fact that they've hit upon some deep psychological indicator of the British public's traumas / desires / hopes etc.

i) it's a catchy tune

ii) there aren't enough other tunes quite as catchy out lately, and not many big single releases (and kylie's new one is too subtle for the top spot perhaps?)

This makes it dialogic, so I'd be happier with that, and then allegorise the split between the minority anti-war activists who will fail to radicalise the majority anti-war passivists / pacifists, who just disapprove of fighting in foreign countries.

That is horseshit! It's like saying all Iraqis were complicit in Saddam's regime.

The song is anti-war, certainly as much as Buffalo Springfield was anti-war. There is more than a minority against the war in Britain, and the war, as war is usually understood, started not X years ago but in March. Why call it hippy-dippy to oppose war? Are your reasons better than 'I think bombing people is wrong'?

The link between cultural events and political ones is not simple, but neither is it merely allegorical; this would be a very nihilistic way of perceiving the world, and it would leave cultural criticism that did make those connections worthless, which it is not. BEP's song wouldn't even have been recorded were it not for the war.

Why must anti-war feeling relate to the absurd obsession with Hutton, with its measured deliberation over post-it notes? Of course people are dancing + thinking about Iraq at the same time; but nevertheless the song reflects popular disenchantment with the war. You don't need to follow the Hutton enquiry to know that the war was bullshit, unless you genuinely believed that Saddam was capable of attacking with WMD back then, in which case you must be very gullible indeed. The fact that the govt used an old PhD thesis to justify the war is enough info for most people.

No -- it means that if you live in a rich country, you benefit from the fact that it's a rich country. Unfortunately the wealth of the UK is not unrelated to the fact that much of the world's population lives in poverty. Deal with it.

There is more than a minority against the war in Britain, and the war, as war is usually understood, started not X years ago but in March.

But war, as it is usually understood, was declared over shortly afterwards. The 'allies' have been directing violence at Iraq since the first Gulf war ended, and let's not go back to the Empire.

Why call it hippy-dippy to oppose war? Are your reasons better than 'I think bombing people is wrong'?

Because violence can only be fought with violence. Peace as the suspension of hostilities is not the end of violence, but another form of it. An armed peace is not real peace.

The link between cultural events and political ones is not simple, but neither is it merely allegorical; this would be a very nihilistic way of perceiving the world, and it would leave cultural criticism that did make those connections worthless, which it is not.

The links are in the eye of the beholder. That doesn't make them worthless. They may not be objectively 'there' (as you acknowledge when you say criticism MAKES those connections) but arguments and beliefs still drive political events and processes. My argument is anything but nihilistic.

I disagree with AT about the quality of the BEP/Justin track - I think it's terrific and bought it in the first week - but I agree with him about the link between #1 records and 'national life', it's mostly bogus. The BEP as a current example elicits ridicule - but if that link is ridiculous so surely are nearly all the others.

For Christ's sake give it a rest, your review of Dizzee Rascal was ten thousand times more over the top than anything else I read about it anywhere (the kind of review someone who really doesn't post here might criticise)and that's the long and short of it so don't try and paint yourself as some kind of anti ILM agitator. You're as much or as little a part of it as anyone else.

FWIW I think the Black Eyed Peas single is fairly bland, not crap and not great.

Does it remind anyone else of the Marvin Gaye cover post 9/11? Fairly trite.

This is true enough, but the concept of 'complicity' has no place here because it would apply equally to all participants (including the victims) in the world economic system, and anyway the benefits of neo-colonialism hardly acrue to everyone in the west equally.

I can't quite follow your bit about violence. Most people are anti-war not in the Perry Anderson, Tariq Ali sense. They are instinctive anti-interventionists, and so yes, the song does not address the alternative to war, which was the continued Saddam regime.

The bit about cultural materialism is one to chew on, though: but to clarify, the links, which exist in the real world, are not made, they are discovered, no less than the rules governing the economic system are discovered by economists.

Plus in this case, familiarity has bred contempt.

But you know, it's not as vapid a lyric as any by Oasis. I agree with mitch, tho, I've seen similar reactions to it.

It may feel right in the current climate but I'd rather continue listening to records not about the current political climate.

However next time some tosser wheels out the "noone sings about anything political anymore maaan", I'm definitely going to pretend to love Where's The Love.

I never ever ever use the word "sell out" but JT's McDonalds ad is the greatest most shocking and intriguing sell out I have ever experienced. He actually has a vocal in it!

love is war, at least it was for JT and BS...

i think you nailed it in your intro to Popular which i only just read Tom. sometimes there will be a situation where the number one has some correlation with something going on in this country e.g. Elton's abysmal 'Candle In The Wind '97', the abysmal Dunblane record etc. but rarely if ever do they reflect a particular politically (or emotionally) motivated 'mood of the nation' but generally whatever is top of the charts is down to more trivial factors such as the week in which it's released, how much promotion's been done for it and the reason for that promotion (e.g. there's a cute fluffy yellow puppet nodding it's head along to it in TV adverts). in this respect the number one is usually meaningless. but then when Sugababes returned to the charts last year with 'Freak Like Me' was there not collective delight in that a) a decent girl band had clawed their way back into the limelight after what had been seemingly an untimely and messy demise and b) that it signalled the continuing rejuvenation of pop music and it's values by aligning itself perfectly with the zeitgeist at that point, specifically the bootleg craze. then again, if it had been released a week or two later it may have missed the boat.

i suppose number ones haven't really 'lost their power' but perhaps it's taken the success and popularity of 'Ignition Remix', 'Bring Me To Life', 'Breathe' and 'Where Is The love' for me to realise that after further reflection. they are popular songs on this board it seems, which to me suggests they must be REALLY popular out there among the masses, they all received excessive coverage on The Box altho not much on Radio 1 (esp. 'Breathe' of course which is another interesting shift in terms of who has the greatest influence on the charts as pointed out elsewhere). all those songs are actually pretty decent 'number one' singles, they sound like huge hit records, they fit the bill. the stream of one week wonders was i think damaging to the power that such songs can have, so whatever has caused a revival of longer-lasting chart toppers lately does actually seem like a good thing.

but then when Sugababes returned to the charts last year with 'Freak Like Me' was there not collective delight in that a) a decent girl band had clawed their way back into the limelight after what had been seemingly an untimely and messy demise and b) that it signalled the continuing rejuvenation of pop music and it's values by aligning itself perfectly with the zeitgeist at that point, specifically the bootleg craze. then again, if it had been released a week or two later it may have missed the boat.

That alone would make Sugababes a "decent girl band"? Hell no. While I admit Freak had a catchy chorus that caught my ear, it was a clear remake from Adina Howard (an R&B song from the 80's)where most of their other original songs have been pretty unremarkable. Strictly speaking, that song wasn't a bootleg: the song had more than a borrowed riff or a sample in it.

Their reformation doesn't equate the Second Coming: one member walked, they took on another. The staying power of a pop song has more to do with radio airplay lists, than with the artists themselves. Heavy rotation means a radio listener will hear the song more often, so tis more about the chance to sell product.

(also Hola Nichole, mail coming soon)

Definitely meant ironically?

i dunno really, i guess these days i prefer uncertain vulnerable members of the public who arent even sure of what it is never mind where it's at

I thought my point was that cultural criticism is Dud. The point of the discussion was that no. 1's, bought by tiny fraction of hoi polloi, do not make good grounds for generalisations about the 'mood' of the 'people'.

are really only terms you shd use if you have the rigour of Althusser; in which case, take a look in the mirror!

The success of No. ones has something to do with their meme-value, not just sales. Alext has got to be right in that one cannot be too scientific about the 'mood' of the 'people'. But being woolly about this is no bad thing. The phrase 'cultural criticism' is dud is a bit sweeping for this 50-odd year old area of study. Raymond Williams to thread!

Anyway, have there been any pro-war hits?

Where Is The Love is, however, the ultimate rap record for people who don't otherwise like rap music, and not in a lame Trife/Outkast way. I think that the best parallels for Where Is The Love in terms of wider cultural significance are less the Dunblane/Dead Di records (which came out of specific events) and more Heal The World or Earth Song. Obviously WITL is a much better pop song than either, but it's trendy vicar music nonetheless - it's being played in primary schools, its mum and dad friendly, it explodes the myth that big wussy 'do no killings' hip-hop doesn't make for great pop music and could well lead to some excruciating records appearing in its slipstream. It's not selling purely because its an anti-war/violence song, it's mostly because its a good catchy record which gained initial exposure due to having one of the most famous people in the world on it - but the lyrical side of it can't be ignored - people like to think that they're buying something wholesome, which accounts for its wider impact than any other hip-hop record this year.

Is this the most successful rap record ever in the UK, or have Puffy or Will Smith trumped it?

Because the owl of minerva only flies at dusk -- or in Adorno's phrase, philosophy lives on because the moment to realise it has been missed. See also 'Cultural Criticism and Society' in _Prisms_

Er, yeah.

"Earth Song" is ACE!

not in a lame Trife/Outkast

Matt where can I get this Trife/Outkast record?

Coolio 'Gangsta's Paradise'
Puff Daddy 'I'll Be Missing You'
Fugees 'Killing Me Softly'
Vanilla Ice 'Ice Ice Baby'
Run DMC vs Jason Nevins 'It's Like That'
Will Smith 'Men In Black'
Eminem 'The Real Slim Shady'
Fugees 'Ready Or Not'
DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince 'Boom! Shake The Room'
Black Eyed Peas 'Where Is The Love'

No one cares about which books or film are number one, do they, unless they work in the industry in question?

Films are more samey too, there's no equiv to genre to the same extent these days.

N.B. this was a first-week record for album sales in the UK. Apparently.

Dido is still significant, though: 'No White Flag'. Clearly about resistance to Anglo-American occupation.

haha - sales value trumped meme-value for hip-hop in the states easily in the mid-eighties. a very very big deal was made of "push it" not making number one despite being the biggest selling single at the time cuz of some radio stations still refusing to play rap, the same thing happened with "wild thing" which was the biggest selling single since "we are the world" at the time. the turnaround happened sometime around "u can't touch this" which had the airplay for number one but not the sales (cuz it wasn't actually released as a single)(part of why "u can't touch this" = final nail in coffin for singles statewise). the first rap single to actually go number one was "ice ice baby" I think unless "super bowl shuffle" made it to number one (which it might've), the first "legit" rap hit was "nuthin but a g thang" I think.

Christos. I think it was in the UK.

perhaps one reason why the pop charts number one status is more fascinating by and large than number one films or books is that the latter two take more time to digest as artworks and their respective charts are far slower moving. there's more of a thrill with the rapid and ever-changing pop charts and probably more variation too.

"ladies haven't worked out how to download off the internet" Joe Cornish

Other question - how many records in that chart failed to make number one? Must be a fair few...

Blue Monday by New Order
Wonderwall by Oasis
Ghostbusters by Ray Parker Jr

but there may be a couple from before 1976 that i'm not sure about

as for the song: it is anti-war but its too damn christian with the 'father won't you help us' type stuff. It could be why commentators or other ppl haven't talked abt it as much: too polite.

I don't look at the charts anymore (if i ever did bcz i can't recall) but the thing i would look for would be the stuff that somehow got in there and that by all rights shouldn't have.

I stopped caring what got to #1 some several years ago: went from the evangelistic "but MY music must be heard by everyone! and a number one will ensure this!" to the self-absorbed "pshah, nothing good gets in the charts anyway" and by the time I'd remembered that pop music was fantastic it was too late. The insanely high turnover going on in the charts didn't help much, as I've little-to-no memory at the best of times. What I think killed my interest dead, though, was how early songs get airplay before their release - by the time it's come out I've stopped particularly caring what happens to it.

As for #1 books, #1 films and so on - I don't tend to buy new books, and I'm not massively fussed about film, so they don't really have any effect on my day-to-day routine. And you can sort of predict what they're going to be, anyway - latest book by Big Name Crime Writer/Terry Pratchett/everything by JK Rowling if we're in a period of Harry Potter fever, latest film featuring Big Name Actor/by Big Name Director/Relentlessly Hyped In Media. There's not much room for surprise there: which, in my opinion, there still is in the pop charts.

Marcello - maybe some people would take an anti-war No.1 by someone cooler with bigger smiles, but maybe this is because they actually like those cooler artists more and those artists would produce a better anti-war song. I'm a bit bored with the whole 'you don't like it cause you're a snob' rhetoric.

I quite like the song musically (though I've only heard it once, not knowing what it was) but I did wince at the "a war's going on but the reasons undercover / truth swept under the rug" line. In the same way as I winced at some of the placards and speeches at the anti-war rally. Not because I disagreed with the viewpoint, but because it seemed like a hackneyed way of saying it that played into the hands of the pro-war lobby. I have a general problem with sloganeering for this reason. Even when the slogan is right, it seems to intrinsically make your opponents assume your reasoning is simplistic. I'm not going to pretend to myself that I think the lyrics just because the song is popular.

Dom:

The thing is, surely it isn't an anti-war song? "Yeah, we're trying to fight terrorism/But we still got terrorists here living/In the USA/The big CIA/ The Bloods, the Crips, and the KKK". Surely BEP are saying "Yes, we are fighting a war against terrorists, but surely we should also be fighting a war against the evil in our home country as well?". In effect, he's equating Al Queda with the other groups.

Sure, out of context you could be right. But it's very close to the "well, there are horrible dictactors in plenty of countries - why are we only going after Saddam?" line, and you don't hear that often from people who are implying that the USA should invade all those countries too. Maybe we'll find out that the Black Eyed Peas are really advocating bombing the CIA, the Bloods, the Crips and the KKK, but it seems unlikely.

Still, nice to see the inherent misogyny in so many ILx posters make itself visible again in terms of their reactions to Dido and the people who buy her records. Women, they just don't have a clue, eh, boys?

I love Dido.

It probably would have been better if the anti-war lobby had communicated its reasoning better, though. You do hear the line "well, there are horrible dictactors in plenty of countries - why are we only going after Saddam?" from both anti-war people, who use it to show that the 'real reason' for the war was not to save the Iraqis from dictatorship, and from people like David Aaronovitch who would indeed like to 'heal the world, make it a better place,' by bombing the Syrians too.

So 'we are the world' reasoning only gets you so far, since anyone who's against pre-emptive war does have to say, Yes, people will suffer both ways (which most marchers like me don't like to admit), but MC's right, sometimes over-reasoned analyses are secondary.

Not liking Dido = crypto-fascism, in my book.

I don't know anyone who likes Dido, does anyone?

Ronan - I certainly wouldn't spend 5% of my weekly pre-tax salary on her record, no, which is a kind of answer.

Ronan, I thought it was clear enough that both Marcello and I do. And Natalie in my office.

I was shocked at how badly "White Flag" did in the upcoming focus group - I thought it was obviously miles better than her other records, there was quite a lot of "Yes BUT IT'S STILL DIDO" sentiment around though, mostly coming from the women voting as it happens.

I saw Dido on the telly last night and it occurred t me that the reason she reminds me of David Gray is that they both sound like they're singing from their sinuses rather than their throats.

Exeter City had a stuffed seagull called Dido for a long time. There was some issue with it being buried under one of the goalmouths for good luck, or something. I may be eliding two or more stories here. It doesn't matter who's #1 for City because Jimmy Bitts and Ricey are both grebt. Although only JB is #1 obv., Ricey has another squad number.

Is what is number one important. Obv in a economic way, it will potentially change careers, a number one is a big deal for a pop act because without it you might get dropped (hello solo spice girlz). Doing well in the US Box Office charts is important for a smaller film because it will influence the other territories it is shown in. We did not get a theatrical release of Human Nature of Femme Fatale over here, but terrific (if flawed) movies because the bombed in the states.

Novelty, cultural currency, social networks and you

I do wish I were better in touch with the charts. But I can't say it's top of my list of worries.

That is to say, most people aren't interested in the why.

This is a really good point. Most people I [used to] work with buy two or three records a year, or more accurately, buy stuff on spec according to what non-music mags have told them (I recall the conversation). One overpaid colleague literally played Jamiroquai very loudly during his 50 mile commute in his sports car, so confirming a cliche that I didn't want confirmed. My mum is a PA and she likes Dido. I was an admin guy and after a shit day I liked... Daft Punk, other ILM faves. Thing is, in 2001-02 I bought only about 3 records per year, and there's nothing expert about be except an indie past. This indie past the root of me thinking Dido is beige/Jay Kay is a twat, but so what? If music isn't central to people's lives, there's no need to wear kid gloves. After all, millions watch makeover shows, and no-one here would call you a snob for hating them. I watch them; I still hate them, but such is the nature of a sedentary life.

Grilling people over misogyny which isn't there is as bad as the act itself anyway, especially when it involves sarcastically putting the supposedly implicit party line in the persons mouth. You might as well just say it anyway.

Furthermore I agree with the sentiment of RickyT's post above but I don't think people were implying here that not being a music nut is a bad thing. I do think suggesting that not being a music nut and liking Dido is something to be investigated and studied is as close to that line as we've got. "Joyful savages etc".

You under (or over) estimate us Enrique! Somebody would.

I don't think anyone on here was being misogynistic - but the arguments against the album I've seen in print reviews boil down to "This is music for chick-lit readers who don't listen to music properly and want to listen to somebody just like them." as if 90% of liking rock isn't about some sort of vicarious fantasy living.

5 years ago most NME readers wouldn't have been ashamed to like Beth Orton, because she was on Heavenly and had, like rilly cool people like Andy Weatherall doing her music. But objectively she ain't much different to Dido.