Visiting North Korea?

http://www.1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip1.htm~mainframe

If you have an American or South Korean passport it is virtually impossible to get a visa to travel there; however, there are tour groups operating there (e.g. Brit-based http://www.koryogroup.com/), and it may be easier to obtain a visa if you visit the North Korean embassy in Beijing in person. The travelogue I mention above was written by an American who managed to get in, so it is theoretically possible. Expect to have no freedom of movement nor freedom from a group (I do not believe individuals are admitted no matter what their nationality), and expect to spend a lot of money (lonelyplanet suggests $100/day minimum...like pretty much everything else about North Korea, this does not appear to be negotiable:-). I am also interested in travelling there, but for now I'm content to do it vicariously. Besides the travelogue linked to above there are more available here:

http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Asia/North_Korea/Travel_and_Tourism/?il=1

There have also been a couple documentaries made about tours to the country...I think the PBS show Frontline did one, though I can't at the moment provide a title or a link.

Fried chicken comes to North Korea

Roller-skating is attracting youth and children in the DPRK.
The respected Marshal Kim Jong Un took a benevolent step to build a modern skate park on the bank of the Taedong River. In the wake of it splendid skate parks were built in parks and pleasure grounds across the country as well as in Pyongyang.

Roller-skating is a physical exercise all people, young and old, can play in any season. The exercise makes the leg strong and the body flexible and fosters bravery. That's why roller-skating is very popular among youth and children who are sensitive to new things, optimistic and brave.

Pak Kum Ju, caretaker of the Skate Park under the People's Open-air Ice Rink said the park attracts some 4 000 people every day on the average and most of them are youth and children. It shows that roller-skating is suitable to their aptitude.
An increasing number of young girls visits the park.

Skate park is also helpful to old people seeking good health and youthful vigor.
Kim Yong Dok, 74, customer of the skate park plays roller-skating for an hour everyday.

Little children, too, like to play roller stating. Doctors say that roller-skating in childhood makes legs straight and fosters nimbleness.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4347636/North-Koreas-got-talent.html

http://www.nknews.org/2013/05/06/white-power-and-apocalyptic-cults-pro-dprk-americans-revealed/

that article could have done with a heavier editorial hand but it does feature some astonishing edginess-chasing from appalling people

http://justsomething.co/41-uncensored-instagrams-from-north-korea-by-david-guttenfelder/

Eh tourists have always been allowed to take pics in nk

If he had been able to get away from his state handlers tho

I really want to visit North Korea. It seems like you may know a few things about that country. Any tips?

Be white, and go through beijing

Read dylannnnns posts about visiting nk and make sure you're going for the right reasons

I think you'll find many women of eastern persuasion who will be just your type

Does Dylan cover 'the right reasons'?

I feel like it's something that will never be seen in the world again (for the better).

the human race, always overestimated

Does Dylan cover 'the right reasons'?

No he makes you question your very existence

Oh, that's always fun.

And yes, I've met quite a few Koreans, though none from North Korea. And all of them seem quite comfortable telling me they dislike black people. I'm white, but someone plainly stating matter-of-factly that they don't like a particular skin colour makes me feel slightly uncomfortable.

Should be good times.

Good anecdotes

i guess, why not?

-- can we totally put aside ethical concerns re nk tourism? i guess. like, tourism dollars aren't bankrolling the missile program that will eventually turn tokyo into a radioactive wasteland, but maybe every little bit counts and maybe it's just kind of horrifying to think about visiting a state that still does supremely fucked up shit to its citizens. ---- but maybe you can still visit north korea and not have that line drawn, but i guess i'd say it's kind of creepy at the minimum.

like those vice dudes bowing to the statues and knowing it'd be on nk tv showing american pilgrims showing love to the juche idea/kims il sung and jong il, visiting all those monuments and statues and shit is kind of like the same deal on a small scale.

-- if your interest in the country or its people doesn't extend beyond casual fascination, doesn't it seem kind of weird to willingly be led around on a government safari of a country starving to death for your own... recreation or to say you crossed it off a list?

-- maybe a year of living in northeastern china turned me permanently off the idea of going to north korea in february. shenyang, changchun, they've got starbucks and reliable electricity and they're still goddamn depressing in february, low on my list of places i need to get back to.

― dylannn, Tuesday, 30 July 2013 06:25 (3 months ago) Permalink

HTH

You'd also be going to a place that just publicly executed 80 people

http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-publicly-executes-80-people-033055520.html

But you'd probably see a lot of hot asian chicks

Your call, buddy

Did I miss the thread where hex was revealed as a sex tourist

That was a historic day

are sex tourists generally more or less worldly/cultured than normal perverts?

More like c21m50n53x460n

Probably 16% more

If it's good enough for Eric Schmidt, it's good enough for c21m50nh3x460n.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2014/9/14/1410690553896/Matthew-Miller-sitting-in-009.jpg

North Korea has sentenced an American citizen to six years of hard labour for entering the country illegally and committing "hostile acts" against the secretive state.

State media said Matthew Miller had been convicted after a brief court hearing on Sunday morning. The court refused him permission to appeal.

Miller, 24, from Bakersfield, California, reportedly ripped up his tourist visa on arrival at Pyongyang airport on 10 April, claiming he wanted to seek asylum.

Prosecutors said Miller had falsely claimed to have secret information about the US military in South Korea on his iPad and iPod.

A photo released by the official Korean Central News Agency showed a pale-looking Miller, dressed in black, standing in the dock flanked by guards.

I am guessing this young man assumed he would have defector célèbre status and get a nice flat in Pyongyang and a nice easy lord haw haw type propaganda job for life, bad decision kid.

still not a good idea

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/18/opinions/american-student-hard-labor-north-korea-cevallos/index.html

OK yeah I'm smh at this kid bcs, he obviously had the wherewithal and connections to get to NK to start with, so he should have had every fucking clue that you just DONT DO THAT SHIT.

But as an aside, WTF is with that CNN article? It reads like something from the Onion.

this could have been any of us imo.

like, i have never been to a country that was anything like the dprk but i have gotten blackout drunk in moscow before. that wasn't very intelligent.

There are probably about 3m people getting blackout drunk in Moscow each weekend. I am trying not to be unsympathetic but pretty much the only reason anyone seems to go to the DPRK is to gawk at a brutal, arbitrarily cruel dictatorship insulated by the privilege of being foreign and able to go home at the end of it. The regime not taking that privilege as seriously as you expected is pretty much on you. However, I strongly suspect he will be treated much better than most prisoners and released in a show of grand generosity within months of not weeks. Tourist $$$ are too important to make this anything other than a show.

wherewithal and connections to get to NK

pay for a flight to beijing and you can take a north korea tour for under a thousand bucks.

tree, i hope you're wrong. it's a brutal country, engaged in some horrifying treatment of its own citizens and getting down with the biggest villains around the world. they give foreign passport holders a lot of leeway for doing stupid shit on their tours of a country being smashed and strangled by military dictatorship. if you're misguided enough to break the list of rules you've been given and you pull down a propaganda banner, go fuck yourself. the kid is not doing fifteen years of hard labour anyways. he'll come out in a few months, a little skinnier, wearing the same blazer and write 3000 words for buzzfeed.

OK yeah I'm smh at this kid bcs, he obviously had the wherewithal and connections to get to NK to start with, so he should have had every fucking clue that you just DONT DO THAT SHIT.

But as an aside, WTF is with that CNN article? It reads like something from the Onion.

― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Sunday, March 20, 2016 12:30 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wait are ppl just taking North Korea at their word or

you're saying it's a set up?

with faked cctv footage, even. of course it's a ridiculous charge + clearly it fits the international pr goals of the dprk. but a lot of americans go through pyongyang and it's seemed to attract some fuckups--not counting the religious and political activists--who do things it's hard for the minders to overlook. even the kid that ripped up his travel documents and ranted in the airport that he had secret military documents was back in the states in months, despite a sentence of six years hard labour.

obviously a dumb move if true but I'm kind of bummed at the amount of schadenfreude I'm seeing from friends on FB and such.

I want to add my post wasnt meant to sound like "he got what he desrved" at all, just expressing shock he didnt think it'd land him in trouble.

Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?

i've read ppl say things like, "fuck this privileged white college kid" or "millennials are worthless fuckups." i oppose that attitude.

I just read Guy Deslisle's Pyongyang and have been reading a lot abt dprk in general and any sort of mild intrigue abt it (I guess based a lot on knowing so little abt it) has been replaced w/ a lot of sadness and terror! Like this place isn't a joke. Why do ppl think NK is like goofy and funny and maybe only mildly scary but not legitimately threatening?

Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?

― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:18 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, considering what else this regime has done, i would hardly put it past them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4cnj4w/i_was_imprisoned_for_10_years_in_a_north_korean/

so maybe in 5 years the current regime will cease to exist

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/16/plastered-pyongyang-north-korea-launches-first-beer-festival?CMP=edit_2221

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc

if you're misguided enough to break the list of rules you've been given and you pull down a propaganda banner, go fuck yourself. the kid is not doing fifteen years of hard labour anyways. he'll come out in a few months, a little skinnier, wearing the same blazer and write 3000 words for buzzfeed.

Otto Warmbier has severe brain injury and is unresponsive

JFC

Also it would appear the Graun has been hacked by trashy fake AV scammers?

i stand by my statement on otto warmbier. stay out of north korea.

How can you stand by it when it's clear he's come out of it a little more seriously affected than being " a little skinnier" and is not going to be "writing 3000 words for buzzfeed" any time soon?

there was no mention of weight gain in any of the reports i saw.

i feel bad for the kid and nobody deserves to slip into a coma in a north korean prison. having spent a shorter time in detention in china... like, i can still only imagine what nk-style detention for an american citizen is like. he was a fuckup but i wished him the best! he wasn't going to serve that sentence and he probably would have got out with a minimal physical trauma and a good story, worth a media tour that might have brought attention to the millions suffering in north korea.

going to tear down some propaganda banners here in dalian tonight in sympathy.

shit happens eh

there was no mention of weight gain in any of the reports i saw.

wtf

Otto Warmbier has died

imagine a world if you will

where a regular dumb ass doesn't commit crimes against a gov't

dude acted the dumbass but jesus he has paid the ultimate price for it.

also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism. if someone on fox points out how cucked this makes donald trump we could have a war on our hands.

also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism.

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, June 19, 2017 1:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is not weird

as if nk doesn't have a history of draconian laws

hard labour is a common punishment within nk

well when was the last time you remember a u.s. prisoner in a foreign country dying as a result of their treatment?

the foolishness of warmbier's behavior is entirely irrelevant. people should not lose their lives for damaging property.

like, it's revolting to bring that up. it's like blaming any other victim of violence.

well, not bring that up, but focus on it, as people here did

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

xp

you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment

― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 2:00 PM (twenty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you're either being facetious or stupid

Still standing by your previous post, dylann?

xp

you go into a country

they tell you do not do a list of things or you will be punished with the utmost severity

you do it anyway

a tragedy yes

but what do you expect

https://startrekreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wesley-justice.jpg

xp how are you so certain that he did it?

i never said i was "so certain" but north korea doesn't sentence random americans who committed no crime under nk law to hard labour

look dude if you follow the rules, north korea is safe unless you are a north korean refugee or once held north (or to lesser degree south) korean passport

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but why in the world would you risk it? would it have been so difficult to follow the rules that you are told entering a foreign country where you have no rights?

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I don't think it's acceptable to visit nk as a tourist for a lot of reasons more serious than the necessary arrogance and sense of privilege. But it is staggering to hear people react to this with a "meh, should have known better".

Without meaning to put words in your mouth infinity, I can sort of see where you are coming from in the sense of going to nk not being a joke / don't treat it flippantly. In the context of being a dumb 21 year old kid though, don't you empathize at all with his actions? 100% agree with the post earlier in the thread in that it could have been me in another life.

if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective

I would definitely be interested if you have links btw

if you have victim-blaming thoughts at a bare minimum keep them to yourself

the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but

sounds like special treatment for americans tbh

totally could have been me, thought about visitng when i lived in china and i've also been blackout drunk alone there and other third world countries

yes, i was a moron

the kid was sentenced to hard labor. iirc, prisoner abuse is not the same as hard labor. hard labor does not induce anoxic brain damage. you can blame him all you like for putting himself in a position to be sentenced harshly, but nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity, and this kid was obviously exposed to treatment far more harsh than his actual sentence called for.

unless it was a botched suicide, but no one's saying a word to suggest that

nations are expected to abide by minimum standards of humanity

NK cares not one bit for this though right?

jfc, we have only the fuckin' *north korean government's* word that this even happened and they didn't just decide to make an example of an innocent kid, maybe certain ppl should cool it w/ the "look dude if you follow the rules..." crap

I remember hearing nearly this same argument from both sides 20 years ago with Michael Fay. No, this dude shouldn't have been imprisoned, sentenced to hard labor, and sent home in a coma to die all for stealing a banner. It's horrible, and it's a tragedy.

But there's got to be some gray area here between "blaming the victim" and not being a dumbass in a brutally authoritarian country. Saying that a black man shot in a white neighborhood shouldn't have been there or a rape victim shouldn't have been at that party are vile positions to take because in this country, in theory, everyone is afforded the right to not be treated that way.

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment. And yet, he must've still thought he was bulletproof by pulling such a stupid stunt. You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

Also, he may have been younger than most of us, but let's not go back to calling the 21-year-old white dude "just a kid."

it's true. white dudes age in dog years.

so if the US was a more authoritarian society, those positions would be ok?

No but it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf

uh some of you guys are fucking crazy lol

You can't ignore the fact that he's the one who could have prevented this.

like.................................................................

But this American was a guest, an outsider, with no rights afforded to him. He must have entered the country knowing his room would be bugged, his cellphone could be searched and that his passport could be taken away and held at any moment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/world/asia/otto-warmbier-north-korea-travel.html?mcubz=2

The website of Young Pioneer Tours anticipates a frequently asked question about North Korea: “How safe is it?” “Extremely safe!” the company replies, in an answer that remained on its site without qualification even after the return this week of one of its customers, Otto F. Warmbier, in a coma with what doctors described Thursday as “extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain.

...

Young Pioneer Tours is one of a handful of companies authorized to organize trips to North Korea. Its website says it is based in the Chinese city of Xi’an and run by people from several countries including Australia, Britain, China and New Zealand. It advertises “budget tours to destinations your mother wants you to stay away from,” including “the first North Korean booze cruise and beer festival.”

...

But Young Pioneer’s website presents a cheerier view of travel to North Korea than many of its competitors, describing it as “probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.”

Unlike some competitors, it makes no mention of the United States State Department’s travel advisory that “strongly warns” Americans against traveling to North Korea because of the “serious risk of arrest and long-term detention.” Instead, the website asks: “I’m American. Is this a problem?” and answers, “Not at all!”

Adam Pitt, a British citizen who lives in Dubai and traveled with Young Pioneer to North Korea in 2013, said people on the tour drank excessively and asked inappropriate sexual questions of a female North Korean guide. The company’s co-founder, Gareth Johnson, did nothing to stop the behavior and was also drinking, he added.

Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html

Gareth Johnson is a 36-year-old British entrepreneur and tour guide who identifies himself as the founder of Young Pioneer Tours. In previous interviews and his social media accounts, he portrays himself as a hard-partying adventurer. He briefly put on a more serious face after Warmbier's arrest, telling Reuters last year that "I stayed back [in North Korea] when I heard Otto had been detained” in order to help Warmbier, or in his words, “to try and work out what the situation was.”

But a photograph from Gareth Johnson’s Instagram account dated January 11, 2016, barely a week after Warmbier had been detained, does not show Johnson engaging in negotiations or diplomacy. Instead, the photograph depicts Johnson in North Korea cuddling with a bottle of clear liquor. Warmbier had been arrested only nine days before Johnson published that image of himself and his liquor bottle.

they actaully call themselves 'young pioneers' lol

But drinking is a common theme throughout the Instagram pages belonging to Johnson and Young Pioneer Tours. Numerous photographs show Johnson or other tour guides drinking whiskey straight from the bottle, images that wouldn’t be concerning had the guides not been entrusted with leading tourists around a country that can be openly hostile to foreigners.

Behind the surface, the story is much worse, according to a former Young Pioneer Tours customer. A man who provided evidence that he traveled with the company to North Korea in 2013 tells ConsumerAffairs that he was almost detained with the rest of his Young Pioneer Tours group on their train ride home, as they tried to return to China.

The customer says the company's founder Gareth Johnson was so drunk throughout the trip that he placed the group he was guiding in serious danger, particularly during that train ride. The customer says that North Korean guards at the border ordered the Young Pioneer Tours group off the train, until Johnson paid the guards cash bribes.

anyway otto warmbier was the only who could have prevented this

didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.

It's really not difficult to sympathize with someone who was murdered, even if you think it was a predictable injustice. The injustice of what was done to him is independent of whether he should have known the consequences.

I'm getting awful flashbacks to the Fidel Castro rip thread.

Oh more rude american tourists thx 4 that

― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 9:10 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark

this is like.......

rude to who? the north korean govt for allegedly entering the wrong floor of a hotel and touching a sign? why do you give a shit if someone is rude to the north korean govt?

Ha, you want to ban me for saying that?

Yeah, ok. Let's blame the tourism agency, not the adult who decided to flaunt the rules of the dictatorship.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

The punishment far outweighed the crime, but yeah, there could have been one tiny thing that could've prevented this.

Ask me about the bullfighter who just died after getting gored. Guess what could've been done there too as well.

North Korea was morally culpable, 21-year-old was stupid. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

it's difficult to sympathize with someone who taunts a wolf

it's not difficult, you're just invested in your own sense of personal responsibility & project it onto others, who you deem stupid for not behaving as you do. people who judge their own behaviour harshly might feel entitled to do it to other people. it's always the powerful which can't help itself, and however absurd the laws are, they are never portrayed as a provocation.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017 9:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark

so far you've compared a government that chose to imprison and torture someone for a false crime to... a cliff and a cow

the north korean govt is... an inanimate object.... and otto warmbier drove off of it

jordan otm

the north korean govt has been caged for life by otto warmbier and only released for the purposes of sport and entertainment. when otto warmbier tripped over his robe of course the north korean govt was going to plunge its horns into otto warmbier's torso. those are the rules of engagement.

It's a damn shame, but Anheuser Busch shouldn't be blamed when some 21-year-old drinks too much Bud and drives off a cliff.

― pplains, Monday, June 19, 2017

in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.

Well this escalated quickly.

I think the assumption he was tortured is an interesting application of Occam's razor

Ask me about the bullfighter who just died after getting gored. Guess what could've been done there too as well.

― pplains, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 11:23 (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bulls don't have the capacity for logic or reasoning or diplomacy. the north koreans in power do, especially the ones who lived in switzerland.

at worst, he stole a political propaganda poster (this is of course based on taking NK's claims at face value).

his coma may or may not have been caused by physical abuse (the doctors stated there was no clear sign of abuse) but that it was definitely not botulism, like NK claimed, so they were definitely lying about what happened. very possible that it could have happened due to neglect (respiratory event with no medical intervention until irreversible damage had been done).

He was in a coma for over a year, which they neglected to inform the family.

yeah it was a bad move to commit a petty crime in a brutal regime but this is a tragedy however you slice it IMO

yeah i shouldn't have used tortured too glibly...

My point is you climb into a bullring, you're taking a chance of getting gored.

Step into North Korea, you're putting your life into the hands of a brutal, draconian dictatorship that considers these kind of actions routine.

I'm not justifying what North Korea did, but don't color me shocked either.

in the annals of ILE hysterical analogizing, this might top the list.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, June 19, 2017 6:42 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, i think this one tops it:

didn't hugnry4ass get banned for life from ilx at one point for saying that like that dude who got beheaded and cannibalized on the greyhound bus in canada should've seen it coming or something. that's kinda what this discussion reminds me of.

― J0rdan S., Monday, June 19, 2017 6:16 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

pplains otm

it was actually for making fun of the decapitation victim (which I think ethan joined in on as well) even after Abbott had begged them to be cool and stop.

The medical evidence iirc is the botulism thing can't be proved one way or the other, since would have happened a long time ago and he's been in a coma since

Cynically speaking: foreign nationals die in custody in lots of countries. There are very few countries for whom it is a viable diplomatic strategy to make the situation look as bad as possible.

'they're not playing 4d chess' in 3, 2 ...

xxxpost I guess idg the point of going to the trouble of making a show about why you don't feel sorry for someone, like fine, feel those things, but at best all that's going to happen is angering people who are legitimately upset about the event.

What, like his parents

i think people should be free to state their positions and defend them when other people call them crazy... nobody here knows otto warmbier

xxxxpost yeah that's not what the doctors are saying like, at all:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/14/what-botulism-comatose-u-s-college-student-otto-warmbier-released-north-korea/395354001/

obviously they can't say for sure it wasn't botulism but they're not saying "it might be, it might not be", they're casting significant doubt on whether it happened and are saying even if he did have it, it's unlikely it'd cause a coma

someone can be legitimately upset about an event that involves somebody they don't know, I know that might be *shocking*

anyway so far we've got

1. another drunk american tourist who cares
2. a 21 year old who visits north korea should not be surprised if he winds up dead

xpost in fact, that very thing happened in the Manitoba bus decapitation thread mentioned upthread.

anyway so far we've got

1. another drunk american tourist who cares
2. a 21 year old who visits north korea should not be surprised if he winds up dead

Can you explain why you disagree with 2? (I disagree with 1.)

it's not difficult, you're just invested in your own sense of personal responsibility & project it onto others, who you deem stupid for not behaving as you do. people who judge their own behaviour harshly might feel entitled to do it to other people. it's always the powerful which can't help itself, and however absurd the laws are, they are never portrayed as a provocation.

― ogmor, Monday, June 19, 2017 6:25 PM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws. this isn't something unique to north korea

with regard to my personal responsibility, in fact, i do have a sense to at least try to view north korea and its relationship to other countries objectively, because i have probably met over a dozen people who are either from north korea, visited north korea, and have a good friend whose family escaped north korea

i'll say it again, warmbier's death is a tragedy and the north korean gov't *is* a despicable regime, but the way north korea in general is portrayed in western media is irresponsible

I cosign pretty much all of that

Can you explain why you disagree with 2? (I disagree with 1.)

― grawlix (unperson), Monday, June 19, 2017 10:24 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark

because his case is obviously extreme, even within the strict context of american tourists detained in north korea

None of the doctors quoted in that USA Today article have examined the guy or have any connection to the case btw ...?

I'm not claiming the botulism story is particularly credible by the way -- but it's a weird lie to tell

'we killed him through avoidable food poisoning, neglecting to notice his airways were paralysed, and making things worse by administering inappropriate treatment' -- this is not a narrative which makes NK treatment of prisoners look good

thinking about this more if you had asked me a month or go or something about this i would've agreed that any american tourist going to north korea should be aware of the fact that there's a very small chance that you do something seemingly innocuous there and up detained

but i have to get off the bus when that logic extends to you shouldn't be surprised if you end up in a coma with your condition hidden from the govt and your family for 1 year at which point you are suddenly returned and then you die 1 week later

it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws.

I'd say it's common sense for a govt to expect that sometimes foreign visitors will break the law, especially if you're running an exceptionally repressive regime. I don't think it serves any purpose to normalise or accept this sort of brutality, pointing out that it's easy to acquiesce to tyrants isn't much of a contribution

Irrespective of what obligations individuals have in North Korea, North Korea has international obligations to a) not torture detainees and b) allow consular access.

Still standing by your previous post, dylann?

i wished him the best.

at the time i wrote the original post, no american had spent more than a year in detention in north korea, except kenneth bae. there was a pattern: american was held and an envoy was dispatched to have them returned. clinton brought back laura ling and euna lee (sentenced to 12 years, entered north korea illegally from china) and they wrote books, painting themselves as human rights heroes. jimmy carter brought back aijalon gomes (sentenced to 8 years, entered north korea illegally from china), and he wrote a book, too! and robert park, who went to the same church as gomes went over, too, and he got out after less than two months. kenneth bae stayed in the longest. but things were complicated by the situation at the time and the fact that he was openly engaged in a longterm operation to attack the government in the dprk, having set up operations in yanji in china to conduct cross border activities. but even he made it out. he thanked dennis rodman and wrote a book.

north korea has abducted and tortured foreign citizens but the majority of americans make it out okay! so... i was playing the odds.

i will say that... the majority of americans detained in north korea were hostile to the north korean government and engaged in activities intended to destabilize the north korean government. i'd encourage everyone to read about the detainees that went before warmbier. they were not innocents that stumbled into north korea and were then framed for their crimes. their treatment was disgusting and they faced trumped up charges for questionable charges--but most of them admitted to committing crimes in north korea. the other three americans detained in north korea now have a history with missionary groups (two worked for at pyongyang university of science and tech, a collaboration with a south korean non-profit group funded by american evangelical money and one had a history of missionary activities and links to evangelical groups operating out of yanji).

i don't think warmbier was an exception (except in being a clean cut white american kid and the media caring about his family crying on tv). he's part of a religious movement that has sent its people over and over again to north korea to fuck with the government there.

i think a travel ban like "the north korea travel control act" would have trouble stopping the problem, as american tourists have mostly been chill and missionaries will just cross from china illegally or sneak in with humanitarian groups, which would probably cover working at PUST.

it sounds like the u.s. state department has difficulty keeping the lines of communication open and doesn't have much credibility with the dprk. joseph yun the special rep for nk policy met with north koreans in secret to secure visits with americans detained. even if dennis rodman is the face of informal contact with north korea, it seems like there must be a number of americans doing good things in the country (lots of off-the-radar humanitarian activity), so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to try to cut the u.s. off from north korea even more. i don't think concerns over being a source of hard currency and legitimacy make sense, when the chinese and russians are in pyongyang. second, stop antagonizing china.

like dylann said, visiting NK as an american is playing the odds, doing so with the intention of being even tangentially involved in subversive activities is another, and you're always hedging against the unknowable -- you having some medical emergency, a sudden change in diplomatic relations, any number of things that would be a distant thought if you were traveling to somewhere familiar

so this was an hell of an outlier compared to what we've seen previously, but there's no indication that NK is jailing people more aggressively that we've previously seen, it's unclear why Wambier was in that condition, and the only new information is that NK's reticence to talk about people they have jailed extends to americans in comas

americans in comas

🎵i know, i know, it's really serious🎵

interesting writing post-warmbier:

"dangerous exploits: otto warmbier and the risks of travel to north korea," craig s. smith: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/insider/dangerous-exploits-otto-warmbier-and-the-risks-of-travel-to-north-korea.html

chinese state media on warmbier/trump's nk policy: China has made the utmost efforts to help break the stalemate in the North Korean nuclear issue. But by no means will China, nor will Chinese society permit it to, act as a "US ally" in pressuring North Korea. If Washington decides to impose third-party sanctions on several Chinese enterprises, it will lead to grave friction between China and the US over the Korean Peninsula issue. http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1052689.shtml

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21723779-travel-ban-american-citizens-north-korea-may-be-offing-outrageous-death-otto

from piie: https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/people-people-engagement-north-korea - a study of the surprising amount of people-to-people engagement in north korea / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/warmbier-and-rodman stephan haggard on travel ban/rodman diplomacy / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/challenges-engagement I am sympathetic with Moon Jae-in’s effort to recalibrate North-South relations. But I am also glad to see that he is standing on principle and that hastily conceived efforts such as summit celebrations in Pyongyang (link is external) were canceled rather than rushed. / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/more-us-sanctions-how-far-should-we-go

more on sanctions, us-dprk relations: http://sinonk.com/2017/06/19/a-roundtable-review-of-van-jacksons-rival-reputations-coercion-and-credibility-in-u-s-north-korea-relations/ For Jackson, the persistent militarized rivalry that causes recurrent but contained crises on the peninsula is produced and reproduced by the choices of US officials. By backing down in successive crises, the United States invites future provocations by signaling that it is unwilling to fight a general war over small skirmishes or continued advancement of the DPRK nuclear and missile programs. At the same time, these decisions have enhanced the credibility of US threats when they are issued, which deters broader conflict. As reputation is often deployed to argue that the United States is weak, it is a refreshingly nuanced diagnosis.

nate thayer on phoenix air, contractor that flew to pick up warmbier: http://www.nate-thayer.com/did-north-korea-poison-u-s-prisoner-otto-warmbier-with-botulism/

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/stories/otto-warmbiers-release-reminder-brutality-north-korean-labor-camps/ Start with China. One of the major barriers to intervention in North Korea is China’s protection of the country. Pray God would raise up leaders in China willing to take a stand for religious freedom and human rights. Pray China would open its borders to North Korean refugees rather than sending them back.

Family declined an autopsy,

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/238505/otto-warmbiers-jewish-faith-was-kept-under-wraps-during-north-korea-detainment-scroll

Bergman, a Warmbier family spokesman, appears to have advised the family to keep his Jewish identity under wraps because it would undercut North Korea’s alibi, which involved a church, for sentencing Warmbier to 15 years of hard labor for attempting to steal a propaganda poster, the video evidence of which is grainy.