Why is JD Sampson so annoying?

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You know who she is -- the guy in Le Tigre who is actually a girl. More butch than Peaches. If it was possible.

― Sophie Ellis Baxter Birney (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

the one on the left.
http://academic.evergreen.edu/f/fracla27/letigre/neatnesstigre4.jpg

― Sophie Ellis Baxter Birney (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

*yawns*

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

haha panther this is someone else!

i think jdsampson is sweet!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Well how am I s'posed to keep up with all of these new posters huh? ;-)

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

So I take it the whole why some lesbian feminists claim oppression by the patriarchy and the male gaze but then dress up like men and oppress one another thread has happened already?

― Sophie Ellis Baxter Birney (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

What this thread is entirely missing is the idea that it's KATHLEEN HANNAH AND BIKINI KILL IN GENERAL WOT IS SO DAMNED ANNOYING!!!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

yes kate but le tigre are funny and charming

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Dressing like a guy is all right, but of all the possible male styles she could cop, why did she choose the 'virgin social outcast circa 1975'?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess I fail to see the point in making yourself look as much like thenemy as possible as a form of self-expression. And what was up with her calendar?

― Sophie Ellis Baxter Birney (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think they are the enemy to most feminists and most dykes. The Le Tigres of the world most likely just hate the men who are bastards, as I myself do.

Anyway, cross-dressing is more a form of self-expression than a political statement, I believe.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

(OK, I have to say that Kathleen Hanna was nice to me when she thought I was in Slumber Party and invited us all down to go and eat their food. (I am ignoring the obvious Dannism implicit in that.) But still. Le Tigre irritate me with their Feminist Cheerleader thing.)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Why?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I find their feminist sloganeering simplistic to the point of irritating. And the cheerleader thing really bugs me. But that's just me.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I admit I haven't knowingly heard them.

I kind of associate them with the whole Venus magazine "look-guys-I-just-knitted-a-uterus" schtick, which does get under my skin from time to time. I'm creeped out that a publication supposedly devoted to cool, accomplished women dedicates so much space to fucking crafts.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Venus is utterly shite magazine. It seems to feed into that whole "lady" thing, the aging Gen X indie chick brand of feminism that seems to scream without saying anything.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Crafts! I wonder how they expect us to take them seriously.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

look-guys-I-just-knitted-a-uterus. BWHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

You go, Catty. Tell 'em about Chicago Ladyfest!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, FUCK. You mean when Joanna broke a guitar string and it took 25 minutes for them to replace it, finally calling Amy Ray to the stage to do it for them?

Or the part where they started the whole show over again and told the organisers to fuck off when they tried to enforce the curfew?

Or all the 'lady-supporting' demos outside the venue that did not support needs and concerns of straight women, too, like Planned Parenthood or any reps from the women's health movement, specifically those that advocate for health insurance companies to not stigmatise birth control as a "lifestyle choice"?

I met Amy Schroder at that Ladyfest and attended her zine workshop, and it basically turned into a great big advertisement for Venus. I have a problem with any magazine incapable of writing a feature in something other than question and answer format.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Erm, besides, shouldn't it technially be "Look, GIRLS, I just knitted a Uterus"? ;-)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

DON'T KNOCK THE CRAFTS

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/VPAB49/SCMEDIA/The%20Dinner%20Party.JPG

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Erm, besides, shouldn't it technially be "Look, GIRLS, I just knitted a Uterus"? ;-)

Make that LADIES.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Ooh, yer so right. ::wishes that I could show you the official Laaaaadyfest "smooth" handmotion which got us in so much trouble on the Laaaaaadyquest Tour::

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Lady. what the hell is up with that? Doesn't it imply certain personal traits that most of these screechers make it a point to not have? Or is it a reclaiming of the word and making it their own, blah blah blah, so 18 year old radicals from Oxbridge can feel better about their titles while raging alongside The Gossip?

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

(I had a free subscription last year, and so, perusing a past issue, I find...)

A feminist's favourite things, according to Venus: cutesy DIY arts 'n' crafts, photogenic female musicians, and vibrators. Yay!

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(Bust and Bitch do a much, much better job of tackling actual issues and not reducing women to yet another stereotype.)

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Laaaaaaaaaadyfest. It just sounds so much better when this is said by a seven foot Canadian roadie in nail varnish.

Cause we all know that *this* feminist's favourite things are, erm, Horny Historians, photogenic male musicians and, erm, vibrating ear dildos. Yes, I see. ;-)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, vibrators *are* important...

I think the whole knitting-uterus movement is part of that whole indulging in the art of our foremothers sort of thing. I understand there's an attempt to legitismise the decorative arts because they have always been dismissed as "women's work" or "feminine" and therefore not worthy of serious consideration of collection.

That said, I don't think every little indie chicklet's oodlee-doo slapped-together handbags and knitted pink mittens qualifies as Art...

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell that to the embroiderers of the Bayeux Tapestry!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm mad at Bitch because they don't ever seem to like any of the ideas I pitch them. I thought Margaret Cho's clothing line for realistically shaped women was an excellent use of her star power and would boost a lot of women's self-esteem but apparently it is Not Right For Bitch, despite their pages-long rants on Gwynnie wearing a fat suit and endless debates on Fat Power.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell that to the embroiderers of the Bayeux Tapestry!

Were they LADIES?!?!?

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, vibrators *are* important....

Vibrators or fine, but they're not for me, and their relationship to feminism seems oblique at best. Actually, using a machine to get off seems like far more of a 'masculine' concept.

That said, I don't think every little indie chicklet's oodlee-doo slapped-together handbags and knitted pink mittens qualifies as Art...

Why must they make such a huge fucking deal about all that? The people I know who make shit are well pleased with themselves, and I'm often tempted to tell them that it wasn't worth the effort. Oodlee-doo slapped-together handbags don't impress me.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

She's annoying cos as far as I know she's not a musician, and was brought into the band to bolster their dykeiness. I think I've said this before, and mentioned tokenism, and then Justyn D. brought up Sid Vicious and Bez, so I don't really have an argument. Except I really dislike "Feminist Sweepstakes".

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, tradition says it was actually a QUEEN, rather than LesDames what embroidered the Bayeaux Tapestry, but they may or may not be a myth.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, LADIES, perhaps we should start an e-zine for REAL women?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Only if I can write long spurious rants about the position of women in history with lots of gratuitous references to how England is always better under QUEENS. (Well, except maybe Boudiccea, but hey, Celtic rule was better than Roman, really, except for the central heating, so her revolution and pillaging were justified!)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, LADIES, perhaps we should start an e-zine for REAL women?

Yes! And it must have a sense of humor! And we can't make anyone feel bad for enjoying Blur's "Country House" video.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Compared to the s/t, anyway, which I ADORE.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i wd be pretty damn proud of myself if i cd knit a uterus!!

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(I keep meaning to mention this but getting drawn into protracted feminist debate instead, but did anyone else misread this thread as "Why is JD Salmon so annoying?" cause I was going to get all defensive and say "No! JD Salmon is nice, I like him! He talks about dronerock and stuff!")

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:27 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry, x-post...)

Let's do it. I'm serious. I want to tackle my conflicting emotions about the art of John Currin and svengali-pop.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, she was their slide projector person on their first tour. But it doesn't matter if she's not a musician because they are PERFORMANCE ART!

― catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to show those ladies a thing or two. What's the next word we haven't reclaimed? Hoes?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

knit your own hoes!!

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we have a Chemical Brothers remix of Knit Your Own Hoe, please?

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

it wd have to be the prodigy obv

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Wench.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

it rhymes with WRENCH!

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking of hoes, what do you people think of the opinion that some women have that it's grrreat to be a 'sex worker', you should try it sometime?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

wow it's a post-feminist water cooler cat fight

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

but them paradigms ladies

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

A MAN! Geddim!

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

jess is in le tigre (he plays triangle)

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

cowbell also (sometimes)

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

And a man who's lived in THE LADYSTRONGHOLD OF OLYMPIA!

Kill! Kill! Kill!

(Sorry if I'm wrong and it was PDX)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Separate him from his man-stick! Quickly, before he turns this thread into another PATRIARCHY!

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Man-stick? Dude, what are we gonna do with another TV remote control?

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Watch the Oxygen Network, duh.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

(Here if you don't get it in the UK)

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Sex industry as in prostitution and pornography or sex industry as in stripping and s&m? I guess the middle ground is escorts and masseuses who go either way?

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, Mr. Man: pack up your rape culture and take a hike!

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know what it is, and if it's not another History, I mean, THE GLORY OF WWII, PLUCKY BRITISH FIGHTING THE NAZIS ALL DAY LONG channel, then I want nothing to do with it!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I was only referring to prostitution. I remember reading the Annie Sprinkle article in Re/Search where she talked about it: "Oh, one of my friends told me I'd make a great sex worker, so I figured what the hell, it sounded like fun." Or something.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Oxygen had an ad spot a while ago with various female celebrities making semi-orgasmic "oh" sounds on camera. It was disturbing.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

here in the UK we have Living TV, Kate. We can spend Saturdays watching the Charmed catch-up and on Thursdays catch Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and Straight Dates by Gay Mates.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

From the website:

If you enjoy Talk Sex and the Sunday Night Sex Show, you may be ready for Bliss. Not the state of mind - the show. The steamy, sexy late-night show, that's chockfull of erotic stories by and for women, and the men that love them.

WARNING: prolonged exposure to Bliss can cause clammy hands, rapid heartbeat, and occasional, uncontrollable sexual frenzy.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Lifetime, however...

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Queer Eye for the Straight Guy scares me conceptually like nothing else on earth. I mean, can you imagine a programme where 5 lesbians made over a straight girl? I'd watch that, I think.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

SNL did a skit exactly like that!

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, wait, Living TV - I think HSA's aunt has a cooking program on Living. Will have to watch it sometime, her veggies = YUM!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, the first thing they'd do is strap her to a chair and extract her sense of humor. It's far more disturbing than anything Kubrick could have done....

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Queer Eye is pretty funny because of how the five guys react to whatever version of breeder Hell they've parachuted into this week.

I was on the sharp end of Riot Grrrl so find a lot of this Ladyfest malarkey to be REWIND!!! in nature. There's also the insane tedium of watching INCREDIBLY SHELTERED middle-class girls who aspic themselves in academia/grrrl ghetto talking about how oppressed they are; it's left me spluttering OPPRESSION? I'll show you some fucking oppression in almost every instance.

The whole knitting/handicrafts thing is wayyyyy boring for me (but conversely the whole handicrafts oeuvre of Tracey Emin is incredibly helpful to the narrative behind her work).

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point, Suzy. The concept of establishing women's rights via Lady garbage is very bourgeois.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I love Queer Eye. I was screeching hysterically watching it last night. Utter genius. "Let's make fashion happen! *clap clap*

There's also the insane tedium of watching INCREDIBLY SHELTERED middle-class girls who aspic themselves in academia/grrrl ghetto talking about how oppressed they are

Hear fucking hear. I'm glad you feel empowered by Mary Daly but let's not get ridiculous. God... what the hell was it that little cow organizing a Ladyfest said to Kate about how straight women sell out in the corporate world because they're essentially bought off with maternity leave? Certain concessions that make straight women traitors to the feminist cause? I don't quite remember but it was really irritating. Rhetoric spouted by someone who has never worked a day in her life.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

How rampant is this heterophobia?

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I felt it was rampant enough back in the states to ensure I'd never go to any kind of feminist gathering again as long as I lived.

But it's all part of that lesbo separatism, innit? Like the dykes in Chicago who felt the annual Pride parade didn't *represent* them so rather than make an effort to be represented by it (ie, build some nice floats and drive them down Halsted just like everybody else) they formed their own Dyke March, which happens the night before and men are NOT ALLOWED to participate. And for the most part, neither are the straight women who want to support them.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, about the sex industry -- I suppose a woman who feels confident enough about her body and her self-esteem is strong enough and wants to work in the sex industry should go on with her bad self so long as she is not abused nor exploited. It's not called the world's oldest profession for nothing. And I'm fairly confident that men are not the only people who require the services of these independent businessLADIES.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? If you were going to be bought off, the amounts given for maternity leave would hardly be enough. Or at least way smaller than the average Olympia Scene Royalty trust fund. If you do journalism and are faced with people like this, the tumbleweeds roll on by when they're asked about character-building shite jobs they might have had.

One thing that bugged me was the 'you're a girl, I'm a girl, you have to do this thing for me or you're a gender traitor' aspect of RG. You couldn't ever say it back. Also it's not part of the sisterhood to scream at people when no soya milk is available, it's not nice to run out of cheap restaurants without paying, and if you shoplift shoes from Neal Street, realise the (female) sales assistant will probably get docked for it. Oh, and if you split up with your rock star boyfriend, leave his flat instead of squatting it for months while mewling about masculine oppression just to emotionally blackmail the poor bastard, who then spends all day getting wrecked in Camden as a result. Yes Huggy Bear girls, I'm taklin' 'bout YOU

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

hisssssssssssssssssssss.................
Poor little Graham Cracker.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, this is where I get off this thread. Because as much as I dislike radical lesbian feminism, I think that in general in-fighting and separatism does far worse for the cause than male oppression ever had to.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, about the sex industry...

But in some forms it seems like more middle-class tourism, considering all the women who got into prostitution because of poverty.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just the whole assumption that as a Straight Woman you will naturally breed. And therefore will require maternity leave. Not that couples of any gender mix might want to have children themselves. But since women, both gay and straight, still make less money than men you'd think there would be more solidarity, but there isn't.

A friend of mine finds feminism incredibly entertaining because he argues that there are so many more women than men that if we got our shit together we could turn the world into a matriarchy, but apparently we're all having PMS and gossiping about one another in the toilets or having a bikini wax and can't unite and fight the Man.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Naomi Wolf basically nailed that issue (for MDCs, anyway) in The Beauty Myth.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It's my understanding Naomi Wolf isn't winning any popularity contests, is she?

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

How do you mean?

I know that her Fire And whatever it was book was pretty lame (major Clinton worship), but The Beauty Myth was very excellent and very true.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought the feminst old guard tried to denounce her.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh dear. This faction b.s. is tiring.

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree. If you want the fast track to real oppression, start fighting with other feminists. While you're busy doing that, the next generation of assholes will be busy reaming and otherwise taking over the world.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a difference between fighting and talking. We can talk about issues as mature adults, identify problems, and propose solutions without things spiralling into unconstructive argument, but few people (in general) seem willing to try.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Cat, I think you know what I mean! Also the male observer often sees a FITE! where there is only a DISCUSSION (cf. Jess). Am convinced that men love a catfight because it's their little reminder about how well divide-and-rule works. I'm sick of being asked by men, 'well, what about RACISM?' as if that's supposed to shut me up because I'm a nice girl who should let the 'worse-off' solve their oppression problem first.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I know what you mean, Suzy.... I'm agreeing with you, not challenging you.

Besides, don't guys get into catfights because it makes them feel better about giving in to their gut reactions to glass someone (or invade their country) rather than the more "let's talk it out" approach women ("typically") advocate? Or maybe it's part of the whole slumber party thing where they hope the girls will then KISS!

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

actually it's because their clothes get all ripped and stuff

― dave q, Friday, 7 November 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

... and then they might KISS!

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

And because we hate women. Oh sorry, I wasn't supposed to tell you that. Look, just forget I said that, okay? Thanks. (Walks away whistling)

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Venus needs less music, more crafts.

(Once I figure out how, geeta, I will knit you a uterus!!!)

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

You can never have too many uteri.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is fantastic!

First, let me say I was a HUGE bikini kill fan and I loved Julie Ruin and the 1st Le Tigre album was a lot of fun (I have the second, but it's meh).

Riot grrl meant a lot to me when I needed something to believe in. Not everyone needs that much hardcore feminist activism, but it's there for those who want a mantra.

Personally, I am in NO way crafty. I suck. I tried to learn how to knit and then realized I wasn't a true feminist.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I still enjoy Venus magazine though. I can't help it. I like pretty glossy mags about fashion and music and it's hard to find music mags about women in bands.

Bitch magazine gets on my nerves, but I think it's just because it reminds me of my mom's Ms. magazines growing up. I always felt like her wave of feminism was just a little too anti-man (or, to be straight with you, more anti-my dad), so it was hard for me to swallow.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I half want to punch J D Sampson, but only because I want that green bass guitar. It's fucking awesome.

I'm fine with people wearing whatever they want. If she wants to look that way, that's fine. Some women find that attractive. So be it.

Come on, LADEEEEZ, I'm posting and I want you all to come back and talk to me!

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

We're too busy having cat-fights and knitting uteruses. ;-)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

One thing that bugged me was the 'you're a girl, I'm a girl, you have to do this thing for me or you're a gender traitor' aspect of RG.

This is a pitfall of every political/social equality movement I've ever encountered. It definitely describes most of my encounters with Afro-Am student groups (although the hilarious thing is that the same people who drove me crazy as this organization were really, really excellent outside of the organization; really the whole experience was more fodder for my "groups of people suck ass/individuals rock" philosophy).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Would you knit me one, please? I feel like a man without one.

xpost:
I agree, Dan. There is something so very college about activist groups. My freshman year my dad was very concerned that I was a member of the Gay Student Union. I thought he would be proud as he's a Democrat. Instead he was like, "Sarah, if you're not gay, why are you wasting your life for their cause?"

I'm not saying I'm against all activist groups. They have their purposes. And I'm basically a lazy asshat. But they just don't appeal to me any more.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I think student activists (hell, I was a member too) are a really important part of the learning process - i.e. learning that individuals may rock even the whole group is corrupt/otherwise bad is quite an important distinction.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

True dat, Kate.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

True dat indeed.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Part of the problem, though, is that I already knew that before I went to college! I was hoping that the groups would prove me wrong.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

But, Dan, you are so much wiser than the rest of us!

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread title appears have some kind of spelling error.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

whoa, i thought this thread was gunna be about me. Nicholars is clever! I wear glasses and play bass, too!

what is that thing, anyway? Is it actually a Fender, or just a clone with Fender-style headstock?

heh. I also dig this thread since it reminds me of what i dislike about when 22-year-olds get off on the activist kick.

plus, any thread with "knitting a uterus" seems classic.

"groups of people suck ass/individuals rock"

and Dan is so fuckin' right. I hate people, but persons are good.

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I think somebody needs to knit JD some tits.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

WOAH you can do that??????

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

My wife just learned how to knit! Now I know what to ask for!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Student activist groups are so self-defeating -- the whole point of them is to Raise Awareness and Enlighten but they really only reinforce a different groupthink ideology. Some people learn this and move on to the Individuals Rock philosophy. Others don't and release records like Feminist Sweepstakes.

What I think is so irritating about Kathleen Hanna's sloganeering is that it seems like a really desperate attempt to keep her generation interested in The/Her Cause while simultaneously appealing to any freshman feminsit who gets off on saying "fuck" at the dinner table. (see: Maggie Gyllenhaal in Donnie Darko: I'm voting for Dukakis)

I'm surprised Kathleen Hanna isn't in marketing.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Catty is so otm about Kathleen Hanna, that's one of the big reasons I could never get into Le Tigre.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Some of the songs on the first record rock, though. "Decepticon" is excellent. Too bad they're such a SHUT UP AND PLAY act.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

The/Her Cause

which one is this, again?

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The Cause versus Kathleen Hanna's Cause, which are not the same thing, no matter what catchy phrase she comes up with for 17 year old bi girls to parrot.

― Catty (Catty), Friday, 7 November 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ah. Thank you for the clairification.

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

My sister knits and kicks ass. Knitting while at a biker bar, even better in her case.

Dan o' course OTM. I kept my local campus activism to my radio station (which in its general issues for recognition and other matters actually did tackle some good larger points)...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 7 November 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't like Le Tigre's music at all but the one time I met JD she was really nice so this thread is a huge bummer.

― chopped liver, Friday, 7 November 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

IS smoked salmon ok to eat without cooking??? (25 new answers, 1 unread)
Why is JD Sampson so annoying? (120 new answers, 1 unread)

this threads is playing with my BRANE

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

YEah, most of the stuff actually about JD Sampson in this thread is pretty dud and embarassing. I hope she doesn't Google her own name.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

She'd have to spell her name wrong to find this thread. People, it's JD Samson, fer chrissake.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

now you've done it!

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone had to do it. < /butch>

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never quite gotten the knitting down, try though I might. I can crochet up a storm and embrodiery to beat the band (as some ILX0Rs have witnessed). I also frequently do the above at bars and loud punk shows. Yay crafts!

never seen Venus magazine though. . .

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Embroidered breasts! Truly I am in craft heaven.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Sarah, I have a powder blue Dan Electro longhorn bass, you want to punch me too? :)

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Venus would be better if they PAID THEIR WRITERS.... ahem.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Do they pay in yarn Jeanne?

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

From a dude's perspective, Venus is better because at least they talk about music and bands and things that are somewhat interesting. They also have some semblance of a sense of humor (though not much of one). I won a free year's subscription to Bitch and, despite being a twee fuck, could not stomach reading it. Every other article made me too mad to read more than half of it. I mean, I consider myself as much of a feminist as a guy can be, but reading Bitch makes me want to put on a wife-beater, sit on the couch, drink beer, and watch football while my wife washes the dishes.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

NA OTFUCKINGM about BITCH.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i brought some Labatts. you mind if we watch Hockey Night in Canada instead?

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(I used to write music reviews there, too. But hey, they paid a little.)

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

It's been a really long time since I read Bitch but I certainly don't remember that kind of response.
But hey I'm all for wifebeaters and beer on the couch as long as *somebody* does the dishes.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

As opposed to our house, where nobody does the dishes. No sexual discrimination at my place.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and to complete the triad, I think I read Bust a few years ago and thinking it was pretty entertaining. It seemed a lot more fun and, well, sexual than Bitch or Venus. But didn't it change ownership or something? I don't think I've read it since then.

― NA (Nick A.), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

As opposed to our house, where nobody does the dishes.

thank you, Groucho. He'll be here all week, everyone!

― Jay Dee Sah Mon (Kingfish), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

To be fair, it wasn't only Bitch that elicited that kind of reactionary response from me. I have a very difficult time with most "feminist" things because they seem very narrow-minded and brainiac to me. Feminism tends to unknowingly paint itself into a corner lots of times. There's the Kathleen Hanna feminism and then there's the Brody Dalle feminism. I'm all about the latter. The former is awesome, don't get me wrong, but to me it feels like too much brain and not enough bloody guts.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Friday, 7 November 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

for the record: JD S-A-M-S-O-N.

(also Kathleen H-A-N-N-A)

(I will now step quietly away from this thread and no one will get hurt.)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 7 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

err looks like Jeanne got here first: sorry, I started scanning after the first 50 posts or so when it started looking like every other riot grrrl thread ever.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 7 November 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

five months pass...

I saw Le Tigre twice a couple of weeks ago and they were great but...

...the femenist sloganeering really is very funny when 1000s of people are singing them off a huge video display - I hope the otherds there were laughing my ass off as much as me

...and JD Samosn? She has the most girly voice in the world! There is a god! And HE's WHITE!

― mei (mei), Saturday, 17 April 2004 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I was eating while typing. I very much hope that no one but me can laugh _my_ ass off!

(And others).

― mei (mei), Saturday, 17 April 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

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