chasing amy

And were it not to seem that I will be a lifelong renter, I'd have bet the mortgage that "Mallrats" was his most hated film.

Dogma v disappointing for me.

Anyone watching "Bob and Rose" for that reverse Chasing Amy feel?

Smith's dialogue though, clunky, over-expositional and yet beautiful in a lack of verisimilitudinous way.

that new jay and silent bob film is a BIG mistake. i think hes pretty overrated. he makes funny film. and........?

I try to watch Chasing Amy (my friend/college classmate Guin is in it) but like D Nick, that FUCKING VOICE makes me stop.

I suppose one of the things I like about Smith's films is they the do display a degree of unfulfilled talent - the good moments really are up their with the best in cinema history. Then he throws a fart gag in, and something excrutiatingly twee happens. Deep down you get from his films that he is a pretty nice bloke who asks himself the big questions. WHen he can't answer them he takes a big dump.

He is to film writing what Richard Linklater is to structure. Anyone seen Waking Life btw?

I suppose the film could have been plotted to make this the underlying conflict all along. But it spends a whole lot of time pretending she's a committed lesbian only to drop the whole thing for the sake of moving forward. It's as if someone meant to make a man- loves-lesbian film, realized halfway through that that's sort of difficult, and then decided to do something else instead.

Can't. Currently curling and moussing the hair on my feet.

nitsuh's on the money about chasing amy giving up on the gay angle halfway through, but i think it makes up for it somewhat with the proposed threesome part. i can't remember many other mainstream romantic comedies where the leading male puts forth a heartfelt offer to fuck his also- male best friend, and it was more interesting take than the lesbian chic first half (as whats-his-name complains about in the film, actually).

Duh. Me.

If you're coming to this conclusion because you find its premise (boy meets self-identified lesbian, lesbian and boy subsequently fall for each other) implausible, I can tell you from personal experience that said premise most certainly does happen in real life, and indeed, happens whether or not it fits in with anyone's political or social agenda.

Personally, I'd say it's my favorite of the three KS films I've seen, despite its flaws. Ben Affleck isn't very good, and his character is pretty sketchily written (and acts like a total dope, which makes him hard to really empathize with at crucial moments of the story). The plot lurches and tumbles at a few key places, at that. But the character of Banky is so spot-on it's ridiculous -- he's an absolute dead ringer for a guy I know -- and there are some very funny scenes. Jason Lee was terrible in Mallrats, but his performance in this was almost touching.

Anyway, the film isn't homophobic at all, IMHO. It's told from a straight white male POV, but so what?

isn't everything? thats the problem!! sure, there are examples of the premise of the movie happening in real life, but the movie is still the excuse for yet another sad lame ass schoolboy fantasy to be added to the millions of other schoolboy fantasies out there. BTW, the reason i said it was homophobic is because i see it as linked to lesbian oppression: it effectively renders REAL lesbianism invisible. in this movie, "lesbianism" is made palatable by placing it in a heterosexual context -- just like in your average women-on-women-for-male-titillation-porno. meanwhile, actual lesbian perspectives on lesbianism are not sought after in the mainstream, they are largely invisible, and where visible they are mostly misrepresented.

isn't everything? thats the problem!!

No, it's not "the" problem, at least not in this case. Kevin Smith is a heterosexual white male filmmaker who makes films with a content which, though not autobiographical, could certainly be called "personal", for want of a better word. There is no secret about any of this, and I, for one, have no objection to the fact that he is writing a film from his own perspective, a perspective in which women, lesbian or not, are potentially seen with male erotic desire. The fact that the voices of lesbian and other filmmakers are less heard than those of straight men like Kevin Smith can in no way be regarded as a fault of his; any argument that holds him accountable for that is specious and silly. If anyone should be held accountable for failing to pay attention to lesbian and other perspectives, it's the public at large -- but I have to admit that I have a profound distrust of anyone who has pretensions to telling the public what it "ought" to like for ideological reasons (rather than, you know, because it's Good).

it effectively renders REAL lesbianism invisible.

Woe betide the individual who claims to have the authority to dictate what "REAL" lesbianism is! Do you have the chutzpah, then, to tell any of my female friends who have self-identified as lesbians, spent a portion of their lives dating women exclusively, and then began dating men (whether in addition or exclusively), that they were not "REAL" lesbians because they decided themselves just as capable of loving and/or making love to someone who had XY chromosomes?

I know you haven't seen the movie. Nonetheless, my take on it was that its essential message was bi- or pansexual -- that people are, at their best and most real, attracted to people as human beings above all (i.e. rather than gender roles), and that, in that context, labels can easily seem a bit silly. I know that's a simplistic notion, and sounds naive and unclear as I write it -- but it's a notion with which, at its heart, I find myself entirely comfortable.

When I was talking with my girlfriend about this, she said something which struck me as very interesting: "Actual lesbian perspectives don't really matter to me." And upon reflection, I have to say I agree: in that the tokenistic, "We-have-to-represent-this-point-of-view-and-this-one-an d-this-one-and-so-on" approach to this sort of thing has always struck me as boring and wrongheaded. If lesbian and other filmmakers are being deliberately silenced by individuals or organizations who oppose their right to have their voice heard, that's one thing. But I'm not interested in efforts to tailor the film output of world cinema to conform to some college-brochure ideal of diversity. For whatever reason, the vast majority of human beings on this planet are either heterosexual or bisexual. Heterosexual and bisexual points of view are statistically going to tend to outnumber "REAL" homosexual points of view -- and heck, one might even argue that hetero/bi POVs are more likely to resonate with more people, and thus do better at the box office.

There are beautiful, brilliant stories to be told that are nigh-impossible to imagine being told from a perspective different from that whence they come. The beauty in Pather Panchali is not merely a fetishized exoticism, it's the sheer beauty (and tragedy) of one facet of a Bengali-speaking part of India, and you could no more reproduce it using Texans than you could make a successful arrangement of Who's Next using bassoon and tuba: the results might be interesting, but a hell of a lot would be lost. I am interested in Pather Panchali not because it's Bengali, but because it's beautiful. If someone tried to keep me from it, or to suppress it, because it's Bengali, I'd beat them with a stick. But if someone tried to claim that the fact of its Bengali-ness was what was Important about it, and not first and foremost that it was a beautiful and brilliant film...then I hope Satyajit Ray would beat them with a stick. :-)

If anyone comes back, though, I want to point out that my criticism of the film's use of homosexuality wasn't a social comment, but an aesthetic one -- it just bugged me that the film began mining plausible, resonant ground and then tossed it away halfway through to do something else. As for the "Lesbian Until Graduation" syndrome, well, yes, this is a very real thing. But the first half of Chasing Amy doesn't itself up this way -- it does everything in its power to make her lesbianism seem "real" (for lack of a better word) and convincing and committed, then turns on a dime and abandons this in favor of "actually, she's just a bit of a slut." I'm not ing to just pretend her character was a LUG type, because Smith just spent 50 minutes trying very hard to convince me that that wasn't the case.

And -- not to enter the politics of it, but -- I can see how a lesbian would find watching this film pretty annoying, given that a lot of its emotional pull revolves around getting you as a viewer to want a lesbian to love a man. (Whereas as a lesbian, it's my guess that your empathy is going to lie in the other direction.) Possibly a lot of the problem revolves around Smith setting Amy up, in the beginning, to be some sort of lesbian-epitome who Speaks for the Lesbian Experience, despite knowing that halfway through, she will turn out to be significantly non-representative of the Average Lesbian Experience.

And the girl I mentioned upthread had her first relationship at uni with a guy who later came out. Go figure.

*Tank Girl would have been crap anyway, but she made it a gazillion times worse.

-- Mike Hanle y (pennyson...)

AFFLECK

dont want him playing spock tho

are you familiar with the concept 'Corny Indie Fuck'?

I think I must have missed the original thread and got left miles behind while everyone rocketed off into a new atmospheric bubble of popism.

as the inventor of the term corny indie fuck let me say i was not applying it to dudes like kevin smith

corny indie fuck would be like that zach braff dude

dude likes shitty music (except run dmc & p.e.) but its not really indie music, its like smashing pumpkins & shit

i am belatedly so mad that my best friend at creative arts day camp made fun of me for not having seen this

i think this is probably kevin smith's best film

yeah it may be. "best kevin smith film" is a hard thing to quantify.

Jersey Girl

;)

i honestly like all his shit, but I don't tell anyone because his fans are the worst.

a friend of mine is in the opening scene in the comic shop.
liked this when i was 17, don't think i would want to watch it now. even then there were a lot of cringey-smiley moments.

i honestly like all his shit, but I don't tell anyone because his fans are the worst.

haha truth bomb. except Clerks 2, fuck that shit.

dogma is really the worst and mallrats is secretly the best
(i haven't seen anything after dogma. except for the first 20 minutes of jersey girl on a plane once, before i fell asleep.)

Jersey Girl was pretty good!

(Clerks 2 too in a sort of old friends-nostalgia sort of way)

I hated Dogma though.

Clerks 2 and Dogma are definitely the worst.

I really liked Zack and Miri - once you get past the gross-out jokes, Smith is pretty adept at handling relationships and love stories.

haha truth bomb. except Clerks 2, fuck that shit.

― dumb pseud (some dude), Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:37 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Nah, C2 is on some unassuming-but-enjoyable 80s style comedy-raunch in the vein of Porky's or Bachelor Party, so i'll fuck with it.

this movie is so bad, and i kinda like it anyway -- too bad jason lee is so much more unlikeable now

for a dude who supposedly writes such tight scripts there are some really dumb "comedic interjection!"s in this

i dont think anybody ever said dude writes "tight scripts"??? def writes funny scripts

basically this is my steez:

i honestly like all his shit, but I don't tell anyone because his fans are the worst.

― uәʇɹɐƃu!әʍ ˙ƃ ʎәu!Ⴁʍ (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:04 AM (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Wait people think Smith writes "tight scripts"?!?!?

"I will shove my cock up Amy when I catch her! " Ben Afflek , 1999

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, October 4, 2001 8:00 PM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont think anybody ever said dude writes "tight scripts"??? def writes funny scripts

― and what, Monday, January 12, 2009 1:17 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they absolutely do -- i mean hes sorta marketed himself this way

ebert on chasing amy: "Kevin Smith ... makes these characters intense and funny. It's all in the writing."

isnt this the standard line on kevin smith -- cant direct worth shit but doesnt matter bcuz he writes scripts that are "tight as a drum"

"I will shove my cock up Amy when I catch her! " Ben Afflek , 1999

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, October 4, 2001 8:00 PM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― and what, Monday, January 12, 2009 1:18 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol u quoted that in this thread already

one more for the psychohistory file

# chasing amy [Started by ethan in October 2001, last updated 10 seconds ago by Dr Morbius on I Love Everything] 9 new answers
# Worst Movie Ever? [Started by David Raposa in June 2001, last updated 26 seconds ago by nabisco on I Love Everything] 97 new answers

I think my definition of "tight" must totally left-field if people are applying the word to Kevin Smith. I agree that he gets work cuz of his writing, but that's because he's a funny writer, not because he's some crazy deft plotter.

I think Ebert's describing the dialogue/characterization more than the script writing overall. And on that level, yeah, Smith's great. Too bad he sucks at most everything else.

"writes a lot of dialogue and follows his own script to the letter" does not necessarily equal "tight"

i dont think his writing is tight, thats the point im making -- what were arguing here is whether or not this is a common defense of smith's films which from what ive read it is -- i think the notion that chasing amy is thoughtful or particularly smart is kinda laughable, whats good about it is it manages to convey a particular + unique brand of humor very well

i think ideally this dude shoulda been born like back in the sid caesar era where he'd just be a gag writer and not be allowed to put his own ideas and serious shit in movies cuz alot of his gags are A++ imo

which is why unlike when i was 18 i now think his best + funniest is jay and silent bob strike back which crakks me the fukk up

i've seen mallrats half a dozen times, i don't think i've seen any of his other flicks more than once. i don't really like KS but he's got some good gags for sure. his hardcore fans are the worst though.

He has hardcore fans?

mallrats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else

mallrats
fuckin
money
smoothies

i
fuck
these
hoes
after
our
shows

in 7th grade i was silent bob for halloween

mallrats i love but chasing amy is horrible.

I thought his charm for those he charms is about being a grown-up make-a-movie-in-our-backyard guy, and a good Catholic kid underneath the troublemaking. So more about heart than about tight.

full disclosure: I was an extra in Mallrats but haven't seen the whole thing. I'm in the yellow winter coat at 0:05:

He has hardcore fans?

― Alex in SF

http://www.viewaskew.com/newboard/index.html

i havent seen this movie since i was 18 btw

heres an opinion that ive thought about and havent really decided if i believe: mallrats >> clerks bcuz the girls are hotter

also it's funnier

wouldn't dogma be the best by that logic because salma hayek's in it? but dogma is the worst one.

affleck & damon in dogma are probly my fav thing in any kevin smith movie but unfortunately then theres the rest of it

matt damon is funny in dogma but that movie is so dumb

ks is one of those filmmakers where if he was a band i would buy his greatest hits collection and not bother with the albums

well clerks & mallrats are in the same league, i basically really dislike dogma so the little things like that dont really matter much

i watch dogma just for affleck/damon lolz

seriously linda fiorpassantino in that is probly the worst performance in any mainstream film ever made ever

o i see. i like clerks but mallrats has jason lee so it is better.

i feel like i have a much larger tolerance for dumb armchair philosophizing when it comes to lol relationships/sex a la chasing amy than i do for religion -- dogma is really challops: the movie isnt it?

she's made for shit like after hours and last seduction. i feel like she was trying some garofalo thing in dogma.

omg i had forgotten about linda fiorentino she was terrible! i don't know how she ever got away with that whole deadpan means i'm clever, not a terrible actor thing.

1 clerks
2 zack and miri
3 chasing amy
4 jay & silent bob strike back
5 mallrats
6 jersey girl
7 clerks 2
8 dogma

crazy talk

not even

dogma is really challops: the movie isnt it?

Hahaha YES.

actually i haven't seen half of those and otm on dogma but no way is chasing amy better than mallrats even though the half of mallrats that's about jason london and that beestung lip girl is boring.

id put jay & silent bob at the top, then clerks, then mallrats & chasing amy, dogma, clerks 2, aint seen the other ones

actually maybe clerks 2 was better than dogma but i was like 16 when i saw dogma and like 24 when i saw clerks 2 also the whole view-askewniverse fan service b.s. bugs me

funniest bit in mallrats is when ethan suplee looks at shannon doherty and goes "...brenda?"

i liked jay & silent bob but now i can't remember anything about it also jason lee as brodie should have been in it for longer <3 <3 <3

ethan suplee is generally hilarious in mallrats

affleck in jay & silent bob is great

at least i think theres one thing we can all agree on re: dogma

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Letting me see Chris Rock naked was enough to get this movie 8 stars.

o_O

lol "8 stars" is such a weird number of stars

this is good acting imo

actually maybe clerks 2 was better than dogma but i was like 16 when i saw dogma and like 24 when i saw clerks 2 also the whole view-askewniverse fan service b.s. bugs me

― and what, Monday, January 12, 2009 3:37 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Strike Back is full of fan service in-jokes and more often than not hilarious...Clerks 2 is fan service jackoff sesh reflection for losers who care about what "Dante" and "Randal" are up to in 2k6.

it does feature rosario dawson admit shes into atm

yeah xxxactly - clerks 2 was all fan fictionary but the nerd joeks in strike back was like "affleck you the bomb in phantoms yo!!" loool

it's not like i can hate on rosario dawson shakin titties on principle or something, but her whole character in that movie is some pretty laughable fantasy girl shit even by the standards of kevin smith movies

also strike back features a live performance of jungle love by morris day and the time while clerks 2 has a wistful montage set to smashing pumpkins

last two posts otm

xp yeah i love some rosario dawson but theres something depressing about how in the last couple years she got conscious of her nerd-ass fanbase and started droppin star wars refs in every interview

lol

mallrats is the only one i'm not afraid of rewatching & hating (thus ruining teenage memories)

i remember laughing at j&sb strike back but don't remember any of the actual jokes.

I think he's a nice guy and should run that comic-book store fulltime

gus van sant counting money is lolsy

man i forgot jon stewart was in this

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTY3NTYxMTAyMV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwOTI5NjY1._V1._SX287_SY400_.jpg

is it bad that i laffed every time they said 'clit' in that