welcoming bush

Yes. Unlike America. And we'd like to keep it that way, thanks.

What shall we do with him?

if the bbc are to be believed.

bnw, it doesn't matter how many there have been what matters is the law is there and thus no one is free from its effects.

if there has been zero, and the bbc say otherwise - it matters

get with it Ed

Because blindly contradicting things because you don't believe that nebulous bugbear "The Media" is as stupid and short-sighted as blindly swallowing everything that "The Media" print.

Do you actually have any opinions or facts of your own?

Is that an indication of Bush's fundamental respectability, or is that an indication of the state of America's own media machine?

and i think english people like having america as an ally because its future in europe is so uncertain

In a strange way, I almost wish that the UK did *not* have America as an ally, because it would force them to have to get along better with Europe. Even with the history, I still trust a unified Europe more than I trust America. Because like it or not, the UK is a part of Europe, not a part of America.

But that's a different issue.

OK, that's it. I give up. Dan, you've just proved everything I've ever feared about America.

Try telling that to an Iraqi.

The provisions in the PATRIOT Act, as with the most recent Terrorism Act in Britain, seem excessive and against the values of freedom and democracy they were meant to protect.

Keep digging. We don't even have to give you the rope on which to hang yourself, you seem to be braiding it yourself.

Actually, no, I don't believe it. That was too ignorant, even for an American. This has GOT to be a troll.

a law is not a threat; this has simply never been the case. can somebody chuck us a link syaing how many there are incarcerated without trial thanx to the patriot act?

no one wants war

damn straight dan -- except those who wanted it so much they flew against world/UN opinion to get it.

jesus, i didn't realize bush's entourage included agents provocateur who'd clog our talkboards.

Or, how about: Every scorched-earth policy the Bush adminstration mark ii has implemented in "reaction" to anything has been a part of its gangster agenda all along ...

I can't wait for the third term.

No one knows, because the detentions (and deportations) are kept secret. I'll try and find a (american) source for some estimates.

what the fuck? the bbc is not perfect; but there are plenty of ppl here who think it's too pro-US -- certainly i remember that as a 13-14 year-old my bbc-shaped understanding of israel-paelstine was massively biased in a pro-israeli direction.

in any case -- what fine media provide less biased news in the us? fox? cnn? the bbc, or at least r4, newsnight, etc, and especially the world service, are exemplary. world service is widely respected by oppressed ppls all over the world.

"The act was hurriedly signed into law with overwhelming approval within six weeks of the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington — without hearings or without being marked up by a congressional committee."

Doesn't sound like "the system was working" to me.

james whale had to go to america in 1930 before his career took off, so the country helped an englishman then, and it will continue to do so, as long as the english people want the help

shdn't get sidetracked -- but we'll take kubrick and losey in return -- cheers!

Or Lord Haw-Haw?

No, you are!

You got the gross part right; don't you understand, they're still doing it, they're doing it right now

indded, and bush is making that task much harder

Additionally, if you think I'm ranting against conservatives, I've been happy to note lately that a number of conservatives have come out against the Patriot Act as faulty.

Sheboygan Free Press, Posted Oct. 14, 2003

Editorial: Firestorm of opposition to USA Patriot Act vindicates Feingold

Sen. Russ Feingold took a lot of flak when he was the only senator among 97 to vote against the USA Patriot Act that was rushed through Congress one month after the horrific attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

He has said he was working to fix the bill that extends federal police powers to fight terrorism and that he was not opposed to 90 percent of it, “only the 10 percent that threatens the Bill of Rights.”

Time appears to have vindicated him on that vote.

Now, as he introduces the Security and Freedom Ensured (SAFE) Act to fix the increasingly unpopular legislation two years later, he’s joined as a co-sponsor by senators and congressmen from both sides of the political aisle. They include two Idaho conservative Republicans, Sen. Larry Craig and Mike Crapo; Rep. John Sununu, R-N.H.; and fellow progressive Democrat Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois. Their bill seeks to eliminate the most controversial provisions of the USA Patriot Act that allow the FBI to monitor law-abiding Americans without proper oversight by judges. The act would rein in secret searches, curb roving wiretaps and impose reasonable limits on the FBI’s access to medical, library, bookseller and other records that contain personal information about law-abiding Americans.

And the Patriot Act has met with a growing firestorm of opposition from Americans of all political persuasions. One opponent has been Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, the conservative Republican from Menomonee Falls who used to represent parts of Sheboygan County. Sensenbrenner as chairman of the House Judiciary Committee was able to get some of the worst parts of the bill changed in 2001 and helped to pass “sunset” provisions that would keep the law from becoming permanent. When Attorney General John Ashcroft proposed making provisions of the law permanent, Sensenbrenner said that would only be done over his dead body.

Ashcroft has since gone on a tour around the country to try to “sell” authorities on the Patriot Act. The fact that he felt the need to take this trip shows how controversial certain provisions of the act have become.

Those who opposed Feingold’s stand on the Patriot Act said he was out of touch with the threat to this country and even implied that voting against the Patriot Act might be unpatriotic.

We believe they were wrong.

Feingold’s principled stand against the excesses of the act is helping to keep overreaction to the terrorist threat from undermining the way of life and basic rights that the law seeks to protect.

That is the height of patriotism.

See, again it's a trick that got pulled over on us. Why did this happen? How did a law get put through so quickly? Here's my point: it happened because that's what America wanted. I mean even if you think the Patriot Act was extreme, to get it passed there had to be some consensus.

Also here is a big important word from that article: Editorial.

I am not all gung-ho Patriot Act. My point is that the pendulum swung between freedom and immediate security on 9/11 and the country reacted. We weren't fooled. And if the left wants to win us back, they need to deal with the mind of the voter and not get caught up with there being dark and evil conservative forces at work.

thirteenthly,

Also mark s am I supposed to take your comment as an insult? Because that's how I'm reacting to it right now, and if that's how it was meant, it was really uncalled for.

(stence get a grip I KNOW YR REAL NAME how wd that be trolling)

Actually it means they would just hire a few more columbian cleaning staff paid on Columbian minimum wage and Senate House will get yet another filming gig out of the whole kit and kaboodle.

The attached file's title was ColinPowell.

Anyway, our students protested today by occupying UCL's central refectory. I've not heard whether George Bush has fled the country in terror and an emergency session of the UN has started yet. This lame protest takes place ten minutes walk from Downing Street or the Houses Of Parliament, for instance.

(Um, yeah, it was pretty obvious to me, stence, that mark s was referring to the dan who started this thread, not you. Overall, I have noticed you tend to assume a lot of snide comments in threads on ILX are directed at you as a insult, when in fact they are directed at other people. I'm saying this, because you've attacked me before for the same reason.. and i apologize for not being able to back it up with a link right now, but it has happened. Just wanted to tell you this as someone i consider an online pal.)

That'd probably be true if we counted Dr. Highball; otherwise I suspect comparing the modern pharmaceutical industry, and modern mental health industry, to its cold war analogues--in terms of $ or cultural ubiquity--is like comparing the 90s tech sector to the 50s-60s transistor game (prozac nation, etc). I could be wrong, but I'll bet the graph has just kept trucking upward at around 45 degrees since the 80s at least. (Which is to say whatever spike in sales we might thank bush for is likely a drop in the bucket.)