Is Suicide a rational decision?

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a rational cost/benefit analysis or an emotional decision? or a decision vs a compulsion?

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

yes

― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 23 November 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a blindness

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i personally think it can be.

schopenhauer felt it was surrendering to the will to life.

― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 23 November 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i should add that it almost never is though, and maybe it can't be in practice. but theoretically i would be willing to defend it

― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 23 November 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I've felt a bit suicidal today. More than I have for some time. Yeah, it's about getting nothing out of life; it's about not relating to other people; it's about living being all effort and no reward.

I don't suppose my funk is particularly dangerous at the moment.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i would be willing to bet that 99% of people have at least considered suicide at some point. it's a big part of consciousness.

― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

not when you can listen to Gary Numan or Kraftwerk instead!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

and i have no idea what was going through Alan Vega's head when he formed Suicide!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it can be, but I would hate for my saying that to encourage anyone to do it.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I almost never feel bad enough for the thought to even enter my head, and I'm surprised that other people seem to so often. The nearest I get is when I contemplate crashing the car, but that's never an "I can't go on" contemplation, more a "what would happen if...?" one.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder if the urge to jump of cliffs and pull into oncoming traffic is related to the more normal kind of suicidal impulses.

― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm always a little shocked when someone I know says, "Oh, I've never gotten to the point where I've seriously considered killing myself."

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i was thinking about the idea of suicide and existentialism after reading baldwin's Giovanni's Room: "And at moments like this I felt that we were merely enduring and committing the longer and lesser and more perpetual murder"

love can be suicide?

I was simulataneously rereading Attali, and he says that composition is to "make an ever-possible suicide the only possible form of death and the production of life" that is to take life and death inside yourself.

And then i remembered in The Possessed by Dostoyevsky how Kirilov killed himself in order to assert the hightest existential right, to establish his free will. But then, this was meant to be a joke against existentialists, so i was told.

i'm not sure if this helps. personally, i always find it useful to recontextualize questions and ideas. In someways, strange answers or new questions can appear.

Andre Breton also said that just at those moments when he had given up on life, he would notice the way the light hit a tile on the grimy floor, and he would fall in love all over again. i'm not sure that compulsion and decision are ever separable.

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

The one time I seriously tried it, and the few other times I came close to trying it with real intent, were all not rational - they were compulsions as a result of depression combined with a bad day or incident. I do believe that it can be rational though - a good example might be if you know you are to die in agony over the next few months, for instance, when it strikes me as a perfectly reasonable decision.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't felt that urge to kill myself since I was, hmmm... 18? So six years. I feel the urge to die in spectacular ways almost every week, at a guess. But that's just to see if I'd survive/what it's like/etcetera.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 23 November 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i've never considered suicide. i have a great uncle who died courtesy of a self-inflicted stab-wound to the chest recently. he had made one previous suicide attempt in his teens (survived and lived on into his sixties). he lived a miserable, solitary life. barely a minute's happiness. he fought his depression for so long, with so little pay-off that i think in this instance, suicide was a perfectly rational and logical decision.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i really have never considered suicide as an option, maybe my life is happy or i just never think about it, i am just content with whatever life throws at me i suppose.

― todd swiss (eliti), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i've had that momentary "ooh blimey i wonder what it wd feel like to jump off" on tall buildings and tube platforms, but never the slightest impulse to find out

rationalism is abt communal not private judgement (which is not to say that any given community, big or small, has helpful access to the rational at any given time - just that a decision which is preceded by pushing people way or shutting them out is likely to be less rather than more rational)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

er--do you mean suicide is a group activity? i'm confused.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

communal not private judgement

upon reflection, maybe you are onto something here. is suicide *social* or *individual*? "Social" meaning that it is an act that is he product of interaction with others, [not in the Jonestown sense of the word] OR is it really the "only truly individual act?"

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

''i've had that momentary "ooh blimey i wonder what it wd feel like to jump off" on tall buildings and tube platforms, but never the slightest impulse to find out''

yeah me too. Also add walking in front of that car.

My only recurring dream is where I fall from a building onto the street. I fell off my bed a couple of times after this dream.

I've never seriously considered it.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

no, i mean that rational judgment is more a group activity than not: hence suicide which follows retreat from all possible groups is likely not to be rational

everything any of us do is social except maybe this guy:

http://www.riverbendnelligen.com/images/tomneale.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

an individual can't be rational? i mean one will still retain one's socialization into what counts as reason on that island, right?

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

ppl on their own are more prone to losing it than ppl not on their own: isolation is risky - some ppl deal with it better than others

individuals retain access to rationality by having a strong enough grounding in the social values they left behind

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

well, every individual is socialized into their culture's system of rationalization. do you mean to say that we need the constant association with other people and with that culture so that the order of rationalization will maintain itself? that we need to constantly insert ourselves into an order or we would descend into disorder, into nonrational thought? that would seem to be the implication of saying that: rational judgment is more a group activity than not: hence suicide which follows retreat from all possible groups is likely not to be rational

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

is it really the "only truly individual act?

Believe that suicide is mainly individual, as tis only the person involved that can decide whether (or not) to go through with it (whether by drowning, slitting wrists, etc). Yes, Waco proved it can also be a group act---but it was mainly each person's decision to take the poison/give it to the children (if I remember right).

No matter how tough things have gotten (at times), I never considered it as an option. It is too final: no changing your mind, if you are successful. Enough things will happen to me in my life, without my doing it to myself. Purely selfish too: what about family/friends left behind to suffer your loss?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

there is no such thing as the individual ;)

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

that complicates things a bit, it would imply that the disassociation from groups either deteriorates the individual to the condition of madness, or that the individual was never fully satisfied with those means of rationalization to begin with, that in isolation a lack is revealed

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

and with no constant patching up of that lack, the individual collapses, as if without a crutch

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't particularly mean we need to "insert ourselves into an order" or disorder follows, i mean that the purpose and function of things like judgment - needing to be proportional or indeed right about things - are far more social than they are individual

if that guy wants to survive on his desert island, then that means he wants to return to society - his judgments about what he has to do to NOT die are socially directed

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Purely selfish too: what about family/friends left behind to suffer your loss?

this reasoning doesn't work if no one will be affected or suffer loss, though...

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a little late to realize this, but since definitions of rationality vary so much, we may each be answering a different question. At any rate, I don't see anything irrational

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

my girlfriend's father committed suicide when she was young, and recently she seems to have taken the opinion that suicide is quite a brave action. i was talking to her about it yesterday, actually - she felt that throwing yourself into the complete unknown, knowing that you'll never come back, takes real courage.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

well, the original question was basically is suicide an emotional act or a reasoned-out decision....but it morphed into a discussion of "what is rational" sort of (which is fine).

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

it may be a rational decision, but that doesn't make it a good one.

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i suppose it can be cultural (hara kiri and all that; death before dishonor).
so on the bravery question:
am i braver if i die or if i suffer living? (assuming the absence of terminal cancer)

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

who cares which makes you appear braver?

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

[whoops] about deciding that life has been painful enough and that's it.

(I want to say someting here but am feeling inadequate to the task.)

I think (and this is almost the opposite of what mark s is saying) that it's very hard for an observer to decide whether or not someone's decision to commit suicide is rational. For instance, I don't think the fact that a particular period of pain is most likely going to end is enough reason to say it's irrational to solve the problem by killing yourself. People always say it's a "permanent solution to a temporary problem" but even if that is true (and I think it's overly dogmatic to insist that it's always true), I don't see where that would make suicide irrational.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

We obviously have no way of fully knowing the reasons behind a suicide, so we can never be sure.

As for bravery, I am always happy to see the commonplace notion that suicide is "the coward's way out" argued against, but I think it's a pretty pointless scale on which to judge it.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I would tend to think that suicide is individual, at least in terms of arriving at the decision to kill oneself. I'm not quite sure where the breakdown between rational/irrational occurs. What makes a decision rational or irrational? Proper adherence to the laws of logic? Freedom from any emotional component? If the former, then I see no reason why suicide, or any other "individual" decision cannot be rational. If the latter, well, then, no decision made by a human being can ever be fully rational, can it?

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

well, the original question was basically is suicide an emotional act or a reasoned-out decision....but it morphed into a discussion of "what is rational" sort of (which is fine).

That's more of a quasi-empirical question then. There should be literature on the subject. Clearly it's sometimes impulsive and sometimes planned out and thought about over a long period of time (or for that matter sometimes probably a matter of both: planning and consideration, followed by impulsive action).

I hope that you don't think there have to be no emotions involved in order for it to be rational. Rationality for emotional creatures would include taking emotions into consideration in some way or other.

(x-post w/ mouse.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

perhaps the whole things transcends rationality and is purely experiential--part of the human experience to seek relief from that which there is no apparent relief...

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

er that is meant to read "seek relief from that from which there is no apparent relief"

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

very hard for an observer to decide whether or not someone's decision to commit suicide is rational.

Because one isn't privvy to the other person's life as they experience it.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you mean by that orbit? That there is no decision making component at all?

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

yes. pulling away from the life for the same reason you pull your hand from a flame.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a question rather than a statement though

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Since what seems irrational to one might make complete sense to another, there needs to be a distinction made between subjective and objective rationality. I think a suicidal person is often able to think "rationally" on their terms, it's just that whatever is troubling them is causing their perception of reality to differ from that of an observer. which (importantly!) doesn't make it any less valid of a perception.

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

the only thing suicide relieves us of is life itself, everything else can be changed or reconceptualized. some need reason for the motivation; for me, the light shining on a tile floor is reason enough. but then, that's my motivation, i guess. it's not very rational, yet strangely, it is.

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Rocket Scientist - the original question seems to imply that there is a complete split between the rational and emotional content of any decision, that they can be neatly separated. Of course that's preposterous, both elements are always at play, whether consciously or not. It's not about black or white, but the relative importance of black and white in determining the degree of grey.

On Poppy's point, the only rationality that counts is subjective. "Objective rationality" is nothing more than an agreement to share the same subjective view. I can't remember which of the ancient Greek Sophists said it, but "Man is the measure of all things" pretty much sums it up.

― Dr.Nightdub, Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Any feelings of suicide I've ever felt were caused by a massive lack of perspective. In that sense, it is a rational decision; the result of a logical thought process that concludes with little other option. The conclusion is flawed in a broader sense because the individual is, as mark s so succinctly expressed, blinded by emotion.

― Andrew (enneff), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Just a random thought - contrast a) a differing subjective rationality with b) denial, in which your way of dealing with "reality" is in opposition to what you actually know of that reality (versus believing it in practice, because if you really believed such and such was true, you wouldn't be "denying" it). For me, it's the continual denial of my personal reality that keeps me from attempting suicide.

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Interesting. I think I'm beginning to understand mark's point about rationality being in the domain of groups. I'm not sure if I agree with him, but if that were the case then maybe suicide would be a "rational" decision when and only when the person in question had a seal of approval from the "objective" perspective of society? As in the case with hara kiri, etc.

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose like so many things one can debate endlessly whether it is rational/irrational, logical/illogical, and come up with examples and interpretations to suit either. Such as the idea that a situation from which one finds no relief would lead to suicide - OK, if you want to assume that there is no other relief - or you can assume that you haven't tried everything possible yet, and keep searching.

If you prefer to be a generally rational person, and you think you're probably going to have a compulsion to stick your hand in the flame, take all the matches out of your house before it happens. :)

― daria g (daria g), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I was thinking more about mark s's point too and thinking, well, when it comes to deciding who is insane, that's normally taken to be a group judgment of some sort.

I'm not ready to agree with mark s yet, but am more sympathetic.

I think "rationality" is a pretty tricky matter.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"one isn't privy to the other person's life as they experience it": one becomes privy to other people's lives through discussion and communication: rational judgment is largely social not individual, it involves and requires communication to determine if it is rational, it is judge rational after a process of examination and adjustment and argument by many

it's very hard for an observer to decide whether or not someone's decision to commit suicide is rational: this isn't the opposite of what i said, it IS what i said - telepathy doesn't exist, we communicate by other means. If by oberver you mean some who declines to engage in communication or whom communication has been refused, then yes, it is impossible to judge rationality or otherwise, because the act has not been placed in the sphere where rationality CAN be judged.

the argument "one can't judge someone else's thought process, rational or irrational" is also the point i'm making: of course one can't, in the absence of communication, because the judgment that something is rational or not rational requires communication, discussion, examination etc etc if the reasoning genuinely *couldn't* be communicated then it couldn't have been rational

("couldn't be communicated" isn't the same as "wasn't communicated": and all of the reasons so far given for rational justifications to kill oneself are eminently communicable

"it may have been rational within in their mind at that time": but this isn't what rational means, any more than those dreams are rational where you convince yourself that some nonsense phrase is the key to everything, however convinced you seem in your dream

the laws of logic: the purpose of having laws, in logic or elsewhere, is to persuade others - they were communally developed and exist for eminently social reasons - rationality is not what goes on inside a single head w/o engagement in the idea of others

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

incidentally, though i know what andrew means by "blinded by emotion", i'd be just as likely to call it "blinded by untested/ungrounded logic" - i don't think reason and emotion are meaningfully separable

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

my english teacher says that it can be

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

obviously we all formulate arguments in our heads all the time: we don't need to be chattering to others to think, in fact it's often a distraction - but the purpose of formulating these arguments is for when we burst back into the room to say AND ANOTHER THING...

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

yes mitch but he's a bonkers crybaby

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

a noose renders the whole thing moot in the end.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s, yeah but the problem is that if you do share your thoughts about killing yourself with someone else, they can take actions to keep you from doing so; so if you want to keep the option open, it is rational not to talk about it (at least not in a way that is not very anonymously).

Last time I mentioned an episode of mild depression to a primary care phsyician I lied quite shamelessly when they asked me if I had been considering suicide or anything of that sort.

Not that that is a logical rebutal to your point--but it is a practical consideration.

Also, I am enough of a crazy individualist that ultimately I arrogate to myself the right of judging whether or not I am making a rational decision.

(Please don't send help. I'm doing quite well these days.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Rationality is most certainly a loaded word and an ill-defined one at that. I'm a little concerned about what might be the end result of cedeing it to majority rule. Groups have been known to make decisions that, when examined by a larger group, or a later one, have been deemed very very bad and irrational. Oftentimes people will agree with others and follow along, goose-stepping all the way. Mightn't it be better to look on decision making as an individual process when dealing with decisions that only effect one person? Apologies to orbit for going of on a tangent.
x-post

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

tangent away.....enjoying the discussion

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

A suicide can perhaps be acknowledged as "rational" by everyone [society] if the people directly affected by it are able to classify it that way: the victim had a terminal illness, or there was a history of suicide in the family (anything that gives family and friends an "explainable" reason.)

Our subjective reality is the one most important to us individually, but usually (not always!) it's best for us that we have that reality match the "objective reality" of others: Hey, this building is burning down! Well, it's just better for my well-being that I go along with the popular perception in that case.

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

mouse, i don't think that any given society is automatically rational by any means: it's true that japanese and roman societies had strong traditions of suicide in particular circumstances - and probably so have many others - but that doesn't mean it wasn't more rational to run away to sea and become an exile determined to return with a hired army and change those societies

( the current japanese attitude to suicide is incredibly directed towards the judgments of others, isn't it?)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Rationality social in origin, yes, but internalized. I will think for myself!

http://www.firsttvdrama.com/pbs/scifi/prisoner.jpg

(using tools developed by others).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i would argue that rationality is not necessarily social. many philosophers were notoriously antisocial.

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

also majority rule are NOT argument and discussion (nor are orders of constraint to avoid self harm, come to that)

you do not think you are able to persuade a particular mob/doctor = fair enough, they may be idiots/followers of a weird sect/whatever

you are certain that you could never persuade anyone ever under any circumstances = it is not rational

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the philospohers would NOT be stamped, filed, briefed or de-briefed!

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

what i was talking about earlier was aimed at those moments when the individual breaks down the rationality of society: existentialism? then you're left with a gaping hole at the center (why the Dostoyevsky character kills himself)

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I might have replied to a question like this before and the answer I give remains unchanged: for me, suicide is not an option and never has been. This is because of a few near-death experiences - if you've ever been in that situation your instinct is to fight for survival. And yes rationality is a 'group' thing, a consensus; if you offend 'rationality' you invariably disappoint some group. And I would disappoint a group comprised of my family and friends, not to mention every paediatric oncologist in Minnesota were I to take my own life.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

(writing a book = clearly social, even if it requires that you shut yrself away for a lifetime to do so)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

you are certain that you could never persuade anyone ever under any circumstances = it is not rational

How many suicides have there been where no one ever could agree that yes, they had some sort of reason to kill themselves (because of serious depression, etc) - not that many, certainly. Thus most suicides = rational?

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"I instantly realized that everything in my life that I'd thought was unfixable was totally fixable -- except for having just jumped."

― hstencil, Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

you are certain that you could never persuade anyone ever under any circumstances = it is not rational

you can persuade at least one person that there are men on mars...

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree that isolation is a big factor. I find myself in a state of isolation I really can't get myself out of. I don't think I'm able to relate to or get along with people on the whole. It contributes to suicidal feelings. There are other factors, but it's a biggie. I give up on trying to resolve the situation... I just try to cope with it.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely "all of the reasons so far given for rational justifications to kill oneself are eminently communicable" is a bit tautological? I mean, I don't give a reason for my one entirely serious suicide attempt because I can't. I mostly put it down to the illness that we call depression, in that 'suicidal ideation', i.e. compulsively envisaging suicide in a positive light, is a common symptom of that. For me, it was not a rational response to anything, it was much more of an enormous and powerful compulsion that, at that point, I had run out of strength to resist.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

existentialists are all attention-seeking showoffs

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

i was trying to find a pic of pia zadora and rik ocasec in hairspray to prove that last claim, but instead i found this, which i feel backs up everything i have said on this thread so far:

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/santamars/santamars3.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

rationality of the small personal group, v. rationality of society at large. ie. I may see how [person I don't know] might feel so low as to take their own life, but their friends and family will disagree. So, in the long run should either of those societal groups get a larger say in an individual decision?

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

it's strange how we run out of strenght to resist going on with life itself rather than with those things that make us miserable.

that's why i mention existentialism, for me, that kind of freedom offers a simplicity and a solution to any problem. It's a matter of perspective, of freedom.

existentialists are all attention-seeking showoffs

huh.

― mandinina (mandinina), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I still think it all comes back to evaluations about how much life is worth, how much pain one is willing to tolerate, etc., and I don't think it's irrational to think a lot less of life than most people apparently do.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

But I will re-read and think more carefully, after I eat some lasagne.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

well, i can relate to that
when circumstances and past circumstances bring more pain to bear than can be coped with;
and when no one is affected if one does or does not exist;
then suicide seems quite reasonable.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

existentialists are all attention-seeking showoffs
Can we rephrase that to "people who call themselves existentialists are attention-seeking showoffs"?

I'm not sure that suicide is always a response to pain.

And I think I'm still convinced that suicide has to be an individual decision (as it is an individual act) and thus the only rationality/perspective/etc. that matters is an individual one.

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure that suicide is always a response to pain

leaving aside cases of terminal illness, it never occurred to me that someone would commit suicide for a reason *other* than emotional pain/distress (maybe in combination with financial stress/destitution, or not)

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Any suicidal thoughts I've had have been because of boredom or a feeling that there's no reason for existence.

― Poppy (poppy), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

boredom??!!! but boredom is so easily fixed!

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

That's still pain, as I see it. I was thinking more along the lines of the dostoyevsky novel referenced above (fiction, i know, but theoretically one could kill oneself to prove a point), or people who have killed themselves rather than rat on their cohorts, or someone who decides to kill themselves out of scientific curiosity (again, I can't offer any real life examples) something along those lines.

x-post with poppy

― mouse, Sunday, 23 November 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I was bored because I felt that nothing I did was fun or interesting anymore, I was just going through the motions. I just didn't see a point to living - what was the point of this day to day tedium when human life is just a blip in the timeline of the universe, stuff like that. I believe a lot of this had to do with blood sugar fluctuations - I felt somewhat of an addiction to sugar at the time, and was going on daily binges that would make things seem better for a while, then the feeling of nothingness would come back stronger than before. Since then I've managed to cut down on sugar, and it's seemed to help my outlook.

― Poppy (poppy), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"all of the reasons so far given for rational justifications to kill oneself are eminently communicable" = sorry, martin, what i meant here is that if you give a reason and we judge it rational, we're not just saying it was communicable but fairly easy to understand and empathise with (like unremitting pain or loss)

isolation and boredom i don't think are so convincing as reasons OTHERS would always consider rational - not least because the fact of communication undermines both of them ("you're not isolated you're talking to ME") ("if you're so bored with everything why do you care whether i understand or not?")

"only i am allowed to judge the rationality of anything and everything" is clearly crazy talk
"only i am allowed to judge the rationality of my own behaviour" = you don't understand what "rationality" means, really
"only i can make these decisions": yes, clearly this is true - but if you want to know (or mind at all) whether the decision is really is rational or not, you have to talk it through with other people, otherwise you cut yourself off from the only way of finding out whether it's rational or irrational (i don't mean other people "at random", or the first person you see, or people you hate or distrust or think are lame or dumb, and i also don't mean you have to abide by THEIR decision, i mean you have to talk to other people and by this process - their response, your response to their response etc - work out what you think)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it is rational or not.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

There's certainly cases where you could call it rational. But Truman's decision to drop the bomb was pretty rational too. I mean, what's so great about rationality? (See John Ralston Saul, Voltaire's Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West)

― spittle (spittle), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

by what process does this book argue its case?

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm kind of surprised people can discuss this so 'rationally', or at least objectively, because all I can think is that if anyone I know was going to commit suicide, I'd alter my life totally or do things I disliked or anything to save them, really. My Granddad killed himself. He wasn't very nice. So did my cousin. And another one of my friends. These experiences make me come to the conclusion that it would be worth sacrificing yourself to save someone from suicide.

The most rational suicide would be my Grandfather, because he negatively affected many people's lives. Or what about Hitler killing himself? Would it be my duty to save Hitler from killing himself, even if it was before World War 2? I suppose it's an interesting question if you think about it that way! Of course it's not rational for someone to kill themselves because they're miserable, though! Because it's not 'rational' to be sad. That's why my solution would be to prevent the person from committing suicide, because I would have always some hope of reducing their sadness, an unnecessary state.

― polly (maryann), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

This is off the topic, but i just wanted to say, about the desert island thing, I think you could ultimately be happy on a desert island even if you knew you wouldn't be going back to the mainland because you could befriend the animals, and even if there were no animals, maybe the plants. I'm thinking of this time when i was really lonely, and I developed this real obsession with this apple tree in my garden that was dying, and I was like watering each leaf individually, and getting up in the night to see if it was okay, and all that! And that can kind of help in that situation. But if you didn't even have that - ?

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I just remembered, in the TV show about Hitler starring Robert Carlyle (?) there was a really 'dramatic' moment where this woman saved him from committing suicide, and I suppose it was meant to be like, 'Oh, wow, history could have been so different'. But you know, obviously she did the right thing, it's just so obvious.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

huh?

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

caring for plants is a good way of healing yrself if yr very depressed and hurt: their cycles of response are fast enough that you can see actual things happening

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 November 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

'Oh, wow, history could have been so different'. But you know, obviously she did the right thing, it's just so obvious.

let me clarify--huh? it was right to stop Hitler from suicide? wouldn't the outcome have been better otherwise?

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Well in the abstract, it sounds like it might have been, but I'm just thinking, when the situation was dramatised - like Hitler was in the room, trembling and crying, and the woman couldn't decide what to do, and then finally she cajoled the gun away from him - it became obvious that that was the correct thing to do. Her 'weakness' was really what is best about people. You can 'rationalise' it too, I suppose, by saying that if she allowed him to kill himself, she'd be equal to what she despised - but rationality isn't really so important.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

well this is too extreme a case to be generally useful, i think--most people aren't historically important; they aren't going to affect great numbers of people

an interesting dilemma, though.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe it is extreme, but doesn't it mean that if it wasn't right to allow Hitler to do this, it wouldn't be right for almost anyone? Oh I don't know, though! Also I mean rationalize! Moderators should have to correct spelling mistakes.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

also the woman in question actually kind of admired hitler, she wasn't just a passerby

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

if we accepted the premise that it wasn't right to allow Hitler to commit suicide, then i suppose we could say that people should be stopped from doing it.

mods are too busy to worry with our spelling. ;-)

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah but even if she hadn't have been an admirer of Hitler, the scene would have dramatised the same.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you seen that movie with Steve Martin and Juliette Lewis in it, 'Mixed Nuts', where they have a suicide hotline? I'm reminding myself of Steve Martin!

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

'Hadn't have been'? That happened cos (of) I have this friend who's always lecturing me, 'wouldn't have, not wouldn't of!' Now I've gone crazy on 'have'.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s, I still think that very few people can be trusted to discuss the issue. If you want to leave open the option of suicide, talking to mental health professionals is not a good idea; and it's very unlikely that the people who care about you most will not try to intervene as well. Beyond that, the automatic tendency is to say: don't do it, since most people do not want to feel any responsibility for someone else's suicide. I certainly wouldn't want to. If it is a matter of emotional suffering, you don't know if maybe something could change to solve the other person's problems. (But you also aren't the one who has to live the other person's life and deal with the suffering until maybe a solution comes along.)

And I still think there is too much in the picture that just isn't a matter of "rationality" or "irrationality," as I understand the terms. I think our judgments about how much pain is too much or how wonderful merely living is are not rational matters. I will agree that issues about how likely it is that particular problems can be solved are subjects that are debatable in rational terms.

Also, I'm a lot more pessimistic than you seem to be about the extent to which emotional suffering can be communicated. I've encountered an awful lot of incomprehension in my life. I've discussed the problems that led me to consider suicide (without mentioning the suicide part) only to have a friend respond with something about her friend so-and-so who had real problems. Well why don't you just do something about? Why don't you just. . . ? And meanwhile you don't know how to just. That's the whole problem! And the therapists you can afford are all useless.

I'm not there now, but I've been there.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Although having said that, I did manage to find someone to discuss with with; she didn't report me to the authorities as far as I know; and she did help discourage me from going through with it.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:27 (twenty-two years ago)

don't worry Rockist, no one is going to lock you away for suicidal ideation. but do answer "no" when they ask if you have a plan or are thinking about a method if you don't want to be hauled in. i don't think people should have to fear reprisals for talking about difficult things. i'm glad you found someone to talk to.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think suicide is intrinsically irrational, or anything like that. My argument was with the idea that rationality can exist except in the context of communication: it can't. If the rationality of yr actions really matters to you, it's because the opinions of OTHERS - about your state of mind or body or being - matter to you. In which case, you should communicate with them to find what they actually are.

"I think our judgments about how much pain is too much or how wonderful merely living is are not rational matters": I think this is very possible, I'm certainly not disagreeing with it. The communication of suffering itself isn't the point, exactly: the communication of the FACT of suffering is more relevant (in yr example with your friend, communication isn't actually occurring, even though you wanted it to). Terminally ill patients have often communicated very effectively their misery to their loved ones, which is why they decide they have as a family come to a rational decision about letting die and so on. The fact of communication - if it's felt to be occurring - may alleviate or even reverse some kinds of suffering, other kinds it will have no effect on whatever.

I don't think there's a magic cure for these kinds of feeling, and I don't think that talking will (necessarily) make you feel better, or different, and didn't claim that. Being in communication is different from not being in communication, but achieving communication may be the problem.

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

it was right to stop Hitler from suicide? wouldn't the outcome have been better otherwise?

an aside - Stephen Fry's novel Making History suggests Hitler's having never been born, this results in a more dynamic person controlling the Nazi party and leading Germany to victory.

― Poppy (poppy), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:47 (twenty-two years ago)

haha! i should live so to spare the world through my incompetence!

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockist, I think it's a bit of an underestimation of people's natural nurturing instinct to say that they would try to talk people out of committing suicide mainly cos they didn't want to be responsible for someone's death.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

er--people don't have that. i have been told for example, when in a crisis "i don't care if you live or die", so there goes the theory of universal caring human nature.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Orbit - I know what you mean totally. I don't really know what to make of that.

Rockist - I mean for me the sensation of helping someone who's sad is more like 'at last I have a chance to do something useful!' rather than 'oh God, if I don't listen to this I'm a bad person'. Well, I guess it's a bit of both. But it's not simply the latter.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockist, also, that's a good point about the guy who talks you out of committing suicide not being the one who has to live with the suffering. But on the other hand, most people's reason for committing suicide boils down to something like loneliness or self loathing, the solution to which is usually affection, don't you think? It's almost like suicide is a plea, 'If you stop me from doing this, it shows at least you want me to exist' - the base level of affection. I mean would someone who didn't exist in society, totally didn't know of it, even bother to commit suicide? I suppose that's an impossible question to answer.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s, before I went off on the personal tangent, I was trying to point out that it's very hard to meet your grounds of rationality when it comes to deciding whether or not to commit suicide, because it's hard to find someone to responsively and rationally discuss it. (I still think that's true, even if I have found an exception or two.)

I think your point about rationality is reasonable, but I'm still not convinced. We certainly don't discuss each and every one of our attempts at a rational decision with someone before acting. (I don't anyway.) Granted, yes, deciding to kill yourself is a big decision so it might be good to get feedback.

polly, I didn't mean that was the only reason, more a matter of at the very minimum people don't want to feel repsonsible for someone else's suicide. But maybe it was a reflection of some inner coldness.

(You've added some more comments, but I don't have any responses at the moment.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 24 November 2003 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with the incomprehension thing. There have been times when all I probably wanted was a shoulder and instead got a clinical stream of practical, functionally useless and ultimately, ironically, depressing advice.

I don't have anyone to talk to. That hasn't made things profoundly worse, though. The right person might make it better, but I have become convinced that I am impossible to relate to and that this person doesn't exist.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, to be on-topic per se: I don't think a lack of communication erodes my rationality. It just gives me less to live for. I'm sure it's quite rational to consider an escape route when you have zero quality of life, an inability to relate/connect with others and no particular prospects of any kind on the horizon. Putting up with this (as I currently do) seems to be the greater irrationality/emotional response.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

As in: 'I continue to live because... because... well, BECAUSE!'

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Putting up with this (as I currently do) seems to be the greater irrationality/emotional response.

i can relate to that...(therefore you aren't impossible to relate to!)

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess you're in a pretty elite club there, then. :)

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

ha! you just need to be drinking with different people :-) (so to speak)

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

ChrissieH, but it is true when people say that problems may very well be temporary, so you may (and hopefully you will) find yourself in another place socially at some point.

(I hope I am not fitting the pattern of responding in a way that only makes things worse.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

It's weird that people (not just calstars, many people I've known) who say suicide is "the easy way out" go on to say how life is wonderful, full of possibility, a special gift. If life is really that special, wouldn't that make suicide an especially difficult way out?

― Poppy (poppy), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:52 (twenty-two years ago)

it's because they're talking about *their* lives, from their perspective.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

we should put this on AIM-- Suicide Chat

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 04:01 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but they're the ones who should be calling suicide the hard way out! it's the people who think lyf sux that seem like they should be more inclined to call it the easy way out.

(x-post)

― Poppy (poppy), Monday, 24 November 2003 04:04 (twenty-two years ago)

imho suicide is that hard way out. but to those who contemplate it, it unfortunately seems the only action possible given the circumstances. rock and a hard place, and so forth.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 04:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Poppy by the way, thanks for telling me about that Stephen Fry book, I read another book by him and I liked it and also, that's a good point - it seems hard to imagine major historical disasters having been worse but of course they could have been.

― polly (polly), Monday, 24 November 2003 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

just fyi, this thread came *before* the other one (anthony's) so please don't think it was a response to that. it was evidently a coincidence.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

The most poignant moment of The Prisoner, from episode 8: "Dance Of The Dead." Mary Morris' No 2 has just had an unproductive chat with No 6. She leaves but turns back to see him standing moodily on top of a high sea wall.

#2 (more scared for her own life than for his): You're not thinking of jumping, are you?
#6 (back turned, but scarily resolute): Never.

Suicide is about caring what other people think. It might be the ultimate act of sadomasochism because in doing away with oneself, one deliberately sets out to hurt the hearts of others, assuming that there are "others." It's only the "uncaring" who go on living (as in don't give a shit, as in so what it's all a laugh/con, as in numbness masquerading as resolve). But it can also be the most irrational of acts because rationalism doesn't come into such a mind; when one is repeatedly kicked and trampled upon by life, one reverts to the mentality of the wounded lion who knows that there comes a time where one simply has to crawl away, lie down and die. Those of us who return from the brink of suicidal ideations initially tend to do so out of curiosity rather than a particularly strong will to live - we want to see what happens next. And when something does happen, we rejoice that we had the patience to wait for it.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 24 November 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Personally, I've waited a long time for something to 'happen,' and right now I don't live with any expectations in that respect. Some people might well be able to stretch optimism beyond breaking point, but everyone else has a limit.

I wouldn't want to hurt anyone else. The only person who'd notice me being gone is my mother, and since she's not in the best of health, that does remain one (the only one) reason for my existence.

Oh, Rockist: you didn't make me feel worse. I don't think my problems are temporary, since they could already be described as hugely long-term (i.e. all my adult life, and I'm 35). But I'd agree this is not the case for most people. I have been unlucky, maybe. Socially, it's ironic that most of the occasional individuals who appear to have taken some interest in me invariably turned out to be fucking degenerates who ultimately compounded my negative stuff. I've grown harder. I won't trust anyone... why the fuck should I trust anyone?

The fault may be mine overall, but I don't think that enables me to do anything about it. Whenever I try, I screw up. Everything I've ever tried to do, period, I've screwed up. You get too old for it sooner or later.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Something always happens exactly at the point when you stop looking (as opposed to waiting) for something to happen. Two years of false starts and then, just when I thought what the hell, GB came along.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 24 November 2003 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

It might be the ultimate act of sadomasochism because in doing away with oneself, one deliberately sets out to hurt the hearts of others, assuming that there are "others."

I don't think hurting others is necessarily a motivation. At a conscious level, anyway, I don't remember that being part of my thoughts about suicide in many cases when I've been tempted by it. There have been specific times, as I've gotten older actually, when I have seriously considered doing it in a way that would clearly be a way of hurting specific others (emotionally). I feel a lot of revulsion toward those fantasies now, but I don't feel the same revulsion toward having considered suicide at all. (Also, caring about how some others would be hurt has played a big part in steering me away from suicide at times when I've fallen into despair.) However, "Suicide is about caring what other people think," may be closer to the truth.

I haven't found it to be the case that something happens when you stop actively looking for it. In fact, some very good, possibly life-saving, things have happened while I was actively looking and doing something about problems.

ChrissieH, I am 37 and it's been pretty much "all my adult life" as well, untlil the past few years. I don't feel like going into further detail here though.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 24 November 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Looking or not looking, it all seems the same to me. Nothing positive seems to happen either way. Not looking is a way of avoiding setting myself up for the 1,247th fall, though. I think people are apt to misunderstand that and see it as weak. It might be, but you need to have endured a certain amount of disappointment over a long period to get it. And I'm not saying that's any kind of badge of honour, either -- I'll swap this fucked up situation with anyone in a second.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

assuming that there are "others."

Assuming there are not others (and im my case I think it's pretty safe to say there are not others), I think suicide is just quicker than the alternatives: death by cop, by drugs, by driving recklessly, and other "accidents" that people propel themselves towards. It does seem quicker and more honest.

On the flip side, ONE person can make the difference,and if you're not here you won't find them (and I don't mean an s.o.) either way. For example, I had one person relentlessly driving me to suicide (lying, cheating, repeatedly telling me I didn't matter, stealing from me, making me destitute, saying they didn't care if i was destitute, saying they didn't care if i was dead or not, even after i told them i couldn't stand it anymore and they were driving me to suicide they would not stop, relentless)
In the meatime my so-called "friends" were busy inviting this person to parties, hanging out, and generally not giving a shit about me or the message they were sending by lending all their support to him.

BUT i had another person, who interestingly most people would say was socially worthless (a junkie) who is the ONLY reason i am alive today, the only fucking reason. Help can come from strange quarters and desperate times require desperate measures.

I suppose the larger point is no matter how fucked it seems, Chrissie, there can be one person (no not boyfriend, one person) who can make a difference, and if you're not here then you can't find them.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I think suicide is just quicker than the alternatives: death by cop, by drugs, by driving recklessly, and other "accidents" that people propel themselves towards. It does seem quicker and more honest.

"More honest" in what way, Orbit? I'm not sure that I understand. The fact that you (generally speaking) may not be able to delude yourself with the reasons _why_ you choose to do it? If that is what you mean, that isn't always correct: the phrase "best thing for everyone concerned, if I do it" comes to mind.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't understand your meaning. My meaning was if you are seeking to kill yourself it is esier to just do it than to actively seek for someone or something to do it *for* you (behaving recklessly etc).

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't understand what you mean by the "delude" part. Do you mean that "it is best for all concerned if I commit siucide" is that the message I should take to heart? I don't think I'm understanding you. Or do you mean I should entertain that thought seriously: "Would it be best?"

Actually, no. The phrase only occurred to me, since that's the rationale I've heard from those few that ever told me they were considering doing it. (And no, I would never suggest to anyone that that they do that; reread resoning in my first post.)

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I still hope for at least one person to make a difference. I guess my low self-esteem still says I have little to offer. I've had no real affirming experiences to counteract it.

One reason (really the main reason) for feeling a 'bit' suicidal lately has been my hopeless unemployment situation, and the way in which the government/Jobcentre have ruthlessly harassed me and refused to answer questions or treat me like a human being. When you're not feeling so great, this kind of devaluing shit really rubs your nose in the gutter. Today I have decided to lose my benefits for the sake of my health. No more. The last two days, I've had a recurrence of IBS, which hasn't troubled me for more than a year... I know things are bad when I get to that point.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

umemployment is temporary, and you never know what will happen tomorrow.
you can email / AIM me if you want.....

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm deeply suspicious of a lot of generalisations on here - I think many of them ignore large and important exceptions. I can refute at least one from my experience - my suicide attempt was certainly not meant as an action against anyone else. Along with suicidal ideation, one potent effect of my depression was that I found it impossible to believe anyone could care if I lived or died. This was a powerful and long-term symptom. A year and more later, one of my oldest and best friends made reference to the horrible shock when a friend tried to commit suicide, and it was honestly only then that I began to grasp the effect it might have had on my friends, and this has been a source of shame to me ever since. On my bad days (thankfully rare now) this knowledge gets translated into "I am an appalling burden on and source of misery to the people who care about me", which isn't a huge improvement really.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I can appreciate that Martin. But I was told to my face "I don't care if you live or die" repeatedly, so it's not really a generalization (if you were referring to my eariler post). I hope you are feeling better. It is different for everyone I suppose, and I am sure there are/were very many people who care about you.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

No, not that one at all or you in particular - the one you quote was an occasion where you were contesting another generalisation, as I recall. You were clear that that was actual experience, and I value bits like that while remaining suspicious of any statements of the form "Suicide is" especially if there is anything like an "always" in there too.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I've only read about a quarter of this thread,I will go back and read more, but I think I disagree with the idea that people consider suicide when they become isolated.

Most of the time I think about killing myself nearly every day. I have lots of friends, some of them close friends.

What I need is something I've never had: a lover, a sould-mate. As I get older I feel I'm less and less likely to meet the one person for me, and this makes me despair. As far as I can see the remainder of my life just consists of toil without reward, getting more and more frail physically and more and more lonely.

Suicide now IS a rational decision for me. But I'm not brave enough to do it.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with myself. I DO feel isolated, but not in the sense that I don't interact with other people.

― mei (mei), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

it never occurred to me that someone would commit suicide for a reason *other* than emotional pain/distress
-- Orbit (cstarrcstar...), November 23rd, 2003.

What about someone who jumps in front of a speeding car to push a loved one from its path?

Or are we using 'suicide' in a judgemental rather than merely literal sense?

― mei (mei), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's mostly isolation for me. Isolation that is partly self-inflicted, since I have terrible difficulty being around strangers. (Even being on here, to an extent, but ten times worse IRL.)

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sending out a song request:

Little Acorns, by the White Stripes.

― possible m (mandinina), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I can be around strangers but mostly I hate it, it's such hard work.

― mei (mei), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Hard work. Yes. And too little reward. This pattern seems to invade everything about my life.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know if this has been said before, but when I'm suicidal it's mostly due to a feeling of inescapable crushing boredom & monotony, and the pessimism it brings. I don't have to be depressed to feel that way, too. It can be brought on by, for example, remembering how shit the place you live in is.

On a slightly related note, did anyone see Chatting To Death on C4 last night?

― stephen. s (yaye), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i talked to a very good old friend today, and while he was trying to be helpful, he just didn't get it. it's not hormones. it's not having a bad day. it's certainty that there is simply fucking no future, no point, that people are not to be trusted, and in such a universe there is no reason to bother. No reason.

― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 27 November 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The worst thing about the trust stuff is that the people who totally demolish it are almost invariably incapable of understanding why. Disrespect of trust and confidence is either a default human state or I've had the worst luck ever.

― ChrissieH (chrissie1068), Thursday, 27 November 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Does sound like you've had some bad luck Chrissie :-(

― mei (mei), Thursday, 27 November 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

hmmm.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"the problem with suicide is that it's always too late."

― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i fully expect to be dead within six months to a year.

i only wish i was joking. or drunk.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the funny thing is that i am fairly ambivalent about it.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Please stop it.

― kirsten (kirsten), Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't mean that in a not-nice way. It's just...sorry.

― kirsten (kirsten), Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to wonder what kind of reaction you're expecting here, Jess. I mean, honestly...

― Prude (Prude), Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:58 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 14 December 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I was actually thinking about suicide the other day. I got to researching what could kill me most effectively. Life really sucks for me and I have no idea how it can get better. But I realized that there's no fucking way I could do that, much as I might think about it sometimes. I can't fully explain why and it would bore you anyway.

Jess, I like having you around.

― AnOnY, Sunday, 14 December 2003 07:17 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

this is a interesting old thread.

what i have been wondering, more than if suicide is rational or not (since as demonstrated above this merely forces us to debate endlessly what "rational" means) but whether suicide is always to be interpreted as the result of a lack.

is it possible for a fulfilled, sane, emotionally stable, even happy (or at least relatively content) person to commit suicide? can someone fulfill all these requirement and still decide that life is not worth living? again, this is not a question of whether it is rational to do so (and who cares if it is?) but whether it's even possible for this situation to come about.

perhaps this comes down to: what are the criteria that anyone could set for the relative worth of their own life? what makes my life worth living? how do i arrive at an answer to this question?

― ryan (ryan), Monday, 11 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

Is desperately continuing to live despite shittiness of life a rational decision?

― M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

ha i just realized i am asking a very bizarre question in a roundabout way: WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO LIVE? (i should make this into a sign and stand at the corner)

are we always forced in a self-referential feedback loop in reponse to this? is there anything else but that feedback loop?

― ryan (ryan), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

i guess i should add: is the only thing other than the feedback loop the option of suicide? an ultimate negation that only comes about through a recognition of circularity?

There's a great line in The Moviegoer: "If it wasn't for suicide I would kill myself."

― ryan (ryan), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:22 (twenty years ago)

What would Socrates do?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

i think suicide is fairly rational. believing things will get better when you feel at rock bottom or after you've had a steady record of depression or illness or disengagement for years on end is perhaps weirder. maybe rejecting suicide is the ultimate exercise in faith. though death is one of those big mind-altering occurances like sex, drugs, etc. (i mean the affect death has on others, i can only assume on oneself. heh.) so maybe nothing about it could ever be all that rational.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Monday, 11 April 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

ryan: w/r/t feedback loop vs. option of suicide, i'm reading demons for my dostoevsky class, and there's basically a character who says that there is nothing but those two options. and to free yourself from the fear of losing the feedback loop you have to be okay with suicide. therefore to show that he's really okay with suicide he's going to kill himself. and he's the best character in the novel. i think there's something fundamentally flawed about the idea that to lose your attachment to life, you have to embrace death, because what if there's no you anymore to enjoy that freedom? okay, so you did away with life-like things like "you" and "freedom," but what's the POINT of that?

he's just acting as if everything can be determined by reason, though. i don't think suicide in general is something like that, i'm not sure what it is but i think it's too big a thing to try to squeeze into a category with fairly narrow bounds like "rational."

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 12 April 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

absolutely maria. i think there is kind of a risk with "detaching" oneself like that--and Dostoevsky seems to intuit that the only logical response to an ungrounded existence is suicide. perhaps he's right in the sense that it's the logical response to an illogical situation.

Heidegger, for one, gets around this by suggesting that we always sort of fall back into life even when we try to detach ourselves (which is not, of course, always voluntary), which would mean that suicide is (much as i said about Schopenhauer way upthread) a kind of embrace of life, and not so much its denial (which of course explains why schopenhauer of all people was anti-suicide). anyway that is kind of what i take you mean when you ask why embrace death! so i agree, as do Heidegger and Schopenhauer (tho schop argues for something much more extreme than suicide).

that risk tho, of falling into suicide or an embrace of death, is what intriques me.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 12 April 2005 01:57 (twenty years ago)

The risk of failing is scarier than the prospect of taking one's own life, I think.

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 12 April 2005 02:00 (twenty years ago)

If I ever got to the point of seriously contemplating suicide, I would probably simply drop my current life and start anew somewhere else and make a fresh go of it, under the theory that depression is sometimes contextual. And if not, I would attempt to continue on anyway, perhaps sacrificing my life in another way, helping people out and what-not.

A strangely inspiring novel in that regard is the exceptionally bleak Journey To the End of the Night, wherein the main character Bardamu all-too-clearly believes life is horrible and the world is a callous, cruel place. But he keeps on going, with the despair of the world almost as his fuel in a way, as if to say "I'm not going to off myself just because of this horrible planet and these horrible people."

That's just me, since obviously many people brighter and more well-spoken and more successful than myself have removed themselves from the game for reasons perfectly inexplicable to us but perfectly rational to them.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Tuesday, 12 April 2005 02:09 (twenty years ago)

Last night, in bed, I came up with a list of about 10 different reasons as to why suicide, right now, would be a rational decision for me. I'm coming up to - or in the middle of - a conjuntion where *everything* that I see as being an important part of myself* is going horribly wrong, essentially.

* the only things that make me, me, are the things that surround me - my job; the way other people treat me; the things I do or don't do in my spare time, etc, etc. If all that was stripped away, there'd be nothing at all. I don't *have* a "personality" in the normal sense; inside me it just feels like there's a gap where there should be one.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:20 (twenty years ago)

Tonight you could make a list of all the people who'd miss you terribly.

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:37 (twenty years ago)

It wouldn't take long

(or use much paper or ink)

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:40 (twenty years ago)

don't you have any ambitions caitlin?

― $V£N! (blueski), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

None that I have any chance of actually carrying through to completion successfully.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:56 (twenty years ago)

(which was, essentially, one of the items on the list)

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:56 (twenty years ago)

Sometimes I feel like I don't have much of a personality either. I don't do much, I don't seem to have many opinions on stuff, people don't really notice me that much and wouldn't really miss me, but I only feel like that when I'm depressed. Feeling like nothing is upsetting, but the outcome of it is to realise that if you're upset about feeling that way then there has to be something, some kind of personality in there to be getting upset and that's the bit of you worth fighting for. I don't know how much use it is to say that though. Sorry.

― Alix with an i? (alix), Friday, 15 April 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

I know several people who have had parents commit suicide. Every one of them is a fucking wreck. I couldn't do that to my children, so my decision, rational or otherwise, is to continue to live. They are the only people who would miss me terribly, everyone else would get over it.

I feel that it can be a perfectly rational decision to choose to die. It just depends on your circumstances and my circumstances don't allow it.

― can't say, Friday, 15 April 2005 11:04 (twenty years ago)

Well, I don't have children.

"People don't notice me much" is another thing. I'm the person who people always forget about. When I had RL friends I saw regularly, I'd always be the one who they didn't think to call to invite out to places. Now, when people I work with - and get along well with - are arranging to do stuff outside work, I'm the colleague who they "forget" to invite.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

Wouldn't that apply to everybody?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

I mean, my job is exactly that - my job, not a job. The way other people treat me? That is how we recognise that we exist, that our existence is recognised and confirmed in our dealings with other people. What if we did nothing in our spare time? Aren't these activities a direct consequence of who we are?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

My point is that for me they're not a *consequence* of who I am, they *are* who I am.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

My point is that goes for everybody, unless you know someone who just wants to be a blank receptor.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

I have thought about suicide quite often since my early teens when I first discovered the concept.

Yes, it is a rational decision. So far, I have decided to stick around, but I see plenty of reasons why at some point I will take control of my own life and end it as I see fit.

Sorry if that seems a downer!

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

Name one.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Slow painful death, horrible debilitating accident, homelessness, no friends / no love / no joy, etc. Plenty of reasons.

I think about death fairly regularly because the concept of life is so weird and whenever I think of how I might die, it just gives me the creeps. I'd much prefer to do it myself in a prepared and dignified fashion, rather than being splattered to bits or something.

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

I mean, if I ever find myself an old man with the only reason to live being to watch my tv shows, which I can barely tolerate just to fill the boring hours, then suicide becomes a rational decision, even if it is based purely on emotional considerations.

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

"WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO LIVE?"

because I know death is the end and even if my life's shitty... i prefer that over nothingness, sth i'm not used to. does that make sense?

― nathalie doing a soft foot shuffle (stevie nixed), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

fear of the unknown

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Sometimes when life seems really great, I think, "Man, to think I was entertaining thoughts of suicide almost every day a while ago. How crazy! I would never have had the chance to be happy! Thank god I stuck in there." I remember this feeling vividly, though I can't remember what on earth made me so happy. That says something about life and the point of living.

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

If you don't want a slow painful death then I suggest that you don't try overdosing on paracetamol. You don't drift off to sleep and then that's it - you get excruciating, agonising liver pain for 1-2 days as though you're being hung, drawn and quartered, and then you die pretty slowly and horribly.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

Yup. I knew someone who killed herself that way; it led to a week in intensive care before she finally died.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:02 (twenty years ago)

That's a major factor in stopping me whenever I've felt at the end of my tether - fear of the physical pain involved in nearly all forms of suicide.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I would never overdose on anything. The painfree way to die is to inhale some sort of gas. You can buy the tanks online. But, I think I would prefer to hang myself, hold my breath until I pass out and then just hang there and die. It's basically the same concept of the gas but probably more foolproof.

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

You would automatically shit and piss yourself while you were hanging. Not to mention the broken neck.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

I think you only get a broken neck if you FALL like in the cowboy movies. I'm talking about suffocation here. As far as shit and piss, that comes with death. The good thing about the hanging is if it doesn't work, I can always grab hold and pull myself down, go online and order that gas.

― Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

Every noose has a silver lining.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

It's v hard to ensure you *do* break your neck, too. Hanging people is a skilled art; you need to get the noose and the drop just right.

(xpost)

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

And today on Blue Peter, here's our great friend Horrabin Cerebrus to show us exactly how it should be done!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

hahaha. Sorry, but that just made me laugh.

― nathalie doing a soft foot shuffle (stevie nixed), Friday, 15 April 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

eight years pass...

Reviving for this article: The Suicide Epidemic

The article eventually feels reductionist, but it's worth reading if you're following the changing demographics.

― Elvis Telecom, Saturday, 25 May 2013 06:10 (twelve years ago)

I would tend to think that suicide is individual, at least in terms of arriving at the decision to kill oneself. I'm not quite sure where the breakdown between rational/irrational occurs. What makes a decision rational or irrational? Proper adherence to the laws of logic? Freedom from any emotional component? If the former, then I see no reason why suicide, or any other "individual" decision cannot be rational. If the latter, well, then, no decision made by a human being can ever be fully rational, can it?
― mouse, Sunday, November 23, 2003 4:12 PM (9 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a lot of the comments here are interesting but in making generalizations don't seem aware of their cultural specificity and don't account for the range of human experience.

suicide is not always or even mostly a solitary act, throughout history there are and have been societies were there are certain quasi-ritualized forms of collective suicide. think of the shinjû or seppuku in japanese culture (yes, these have become literary archetypes but they are also social rituals).

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Saturday, 25 May 2013 06:30 (twelve years ago)

nature of suicide in a culture undoubtedly related to nature of belief systems, not to mention how they are embedded in social mores and hierarchies

no less true today than ever i would think

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Saturday, 25 May 2013 06:31 (twelve years ago)

The thread title seems to misunderstand the nature and uses of rationality.

First, decisions which are based on incomplete or flawed data, and therefore can be proved to be objectively wrong by someone using more complete data, can still be called rational decisions, because they were arrived at using rational thought processes. This doesn't make them correct or desirable.

Second, deliberate human actions cannot be seperated from values and motives, neither of which can be derived purely from objective reasoning. Because suicide is a human action, based in judgements of value and requiring a motive, it will always include irrational elements, however rationally one approaches it.

― parodic pastry (Aimless), Saturday, 25 May 2013 16:36 (twelve years ago)

I agree with that. I also think suicide is the wrong choice for most people. Depression, for instance, has a high recovery rate.

― Treeship, Saturday, 25 May 2013 17:23 (twelve years ago)

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