new friendships

Cinnamon sugar usually ends up on the top of apple pie anyway, yes? At least that's how my mom's always done it, just a sprinkling. Very nice!

Anonymous Annoyance, you are Annoying me with your lack of response to my friendship offer.

The thread to revive for this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3mjP26tGlSxRlH5TSCZNgCK/how-i-realised-id-become-a-friendaholic

bbc "describe the human experience without immediately creating embarrassing jargon" challenge failed once again

what's funny is they use the proper term for it before introducing the new unnecessary term

and yet

Elizabeth defines a friendaholic as somebody who develops a “co-dependent” relationship with their friends.

Speaking to Nihal, she says much of her life was spent trying to be the “perfect friend” as she gained a sense of self-validation by being liked by others.

“If I could have a connection with others, and they seem to find me ok to spend time with, perhaps that meant I am actually ok,” she says.

hi it me

sounds like she is describing her attachment issues with different words that don't feel as bad as "anxious attachment"

No, no, she's clearly addicted to some horrible substance called friendahol. Just say no, kids.

It sounds like an interesting subject (why does our society not value platonic friendships as much as partner or family relationships), but the author seems to be putting on a kind of performance in the middle of it, which is just distracting. I might look for a review later.

I do agree a lot with

"a lot of the language that we do already use around friendship is moralising”.

whereas in reality, those labels sometimes lack utility because long-term friendship contains ample opportunity for friends to fuck up, just like any family member or romantic partner, but friends always seem to be given a shorter leash with that.

people have a right to stop associating with whomever they want, but I've seen a lot of friendships end over really stupid things in recent years.

sounds like she is describing her attachment issues with different words that don't feel as bad as "anxious attachment"

She says having an English accent in Northern Ireland during the 80s made her “fearful” because it marked her out as “the enemy”.

wait, she was shooting people in Northern Ireland as a child? And the interview is about friendship ... as opposed to being a child soldier? that's weird ...

I have absolutely no idea why you keep responding to me, but since you so crassly went there with your stupid comment: I had a family member who was shot for the crime of going into the wrong place at the wrong time, and I thought it was a fairly obvious reference to the position of someone in a position of far more privilege than the people I’m referring to.

I’m not sure society undervalues friendships - there’s a reason there are so many pejoratives about lacking friends or likability!

To me, someone freely admitting they have no friends is a huge red flag.

Why would someone respond to a post on a thread? Maybe if you don’t want people to respond to your posts then … don’t post?

It's always great to see new friendships developing!

LOL

It's really heartwarming.

I haven’t quite figured out what the latest revive is about but it seems interesting.

Old news Elizabeth, the L.A. Times got there 14 years ago: https://jezebel.com/are-you-addicted-to-friendahol-5166658

what a depressing revive.

i'm currently nurturing a new friendship. it's nice.

New friendships are great, A+, always happy to happen into them. I am pro-friendahol.

wait, she was shooting people in Northern Ireland as a child?

wtaf sarahell

To me, someone freely admitting they have no friends is a huge red flag.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Tuesday, 2 May 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Who does this? Depends on the tone in which they say it.

Many people get to a position in life where they end up fairly isolated. I wouldn't put a 'red flag' on it.

i think jim means the ones who bitter enough to openly "own it"? it is a red flag.

Ah ok yes, agree. Never met that kind of person, which is lucky for me to avoid it so far.

Yeah being lonely is very different from “I don’t need friends”.

See also openly hating on activities with the few friends you do have. Lady, I just met you, stop challenging me to love you.

love new friends and acquaintances, love traveling to new places and meeting interesting people.

xxxp I have, weirdly, met several people who openly (and sometimes proudly) have told me that they have no friends.

Most of the time, it's not a surprise, honestly.

Frank Zappa, for instance.

I'm more interested in making new friends than meeting new lovers tbh

i'm good at making new friends but then i'm bad at not crushing on them

No, I can't stop crushing on them either.

Crushing, why is it so bad and hated?

i have more friends than I know what to do with and zero desire to see 98% of them atm. i'm too unpredictable mood wise these days

I can honestly say that I don't really have any friends to speak of. There are people at work I'll happily have lunch with, but I wouldn't ever meet them outside of work. I chat to other parents at school events, but again I wouldn't ever see them outside of a school context. I go to a lot of concerts, but I only ever go to them on my own. There is no-one apart from my wife whom I would confide in. I wouldn't mind having male company now and then, but I'm not actively seeking it either.

Fascinating.

So much of gayness -- my gayness -- depends on friendship that when the so-called lockdown part of the pandemic hit I suffered mild damage from which I'm still recovering.

The isolation was not easy to deal with. Not for me, anyway, and not for anyone I know.

it definitely fucked with me too, with many days drinking and sobbing, but I feel like most of my damage came starting in 2022. just after a certain amount of new national crises, Jan 6th, Omicron, home stress, and excess doomscrolling, I began programming myself to start avoiding these stressors and over time the avoidant behavior became so widespread that my memory started suffering because I was subconsciously redirecting almost EVERYTHING that entered my head, important things too.

used to wonder how excess stress could warp a brain on its own without any actual physical trauma to it, starting to figure that out. feels like swiss cheese now. I don't like to be around people if I'm clearly "off" because then they're going to ask me about it and I won't want to talk about it or lie about it either.

impacted work too in that any task that involves me working solo, giving written analyses or processing things in software, boom, I'm good, I thrive, but anything that involves talking to or listening to people talk = i try and avoid it.

I don't think I'm a terrible person but perhaps all terrible people think that. I don't really have any friends, certainly none that I ever meet up in person with. there are 2 people who I exchange maybe 3 or 4 how are you doing texts with around our respective birthdays each year and that's it, I don't meet up with either of them even though both live within 15 miles of where I live. i don't generally dislike people but I am pretty certain that I will never be as happy and comfortable and as at peace when I am with another person as I am when I am by myself.

viewed purely from a personal pov and taking in no account of how terrible the pandemic and lockdown was for countless people. for me personally it was the best year and a half of my adult life.

Crushing, why is it so bad and hated?

― Because the Nighttoad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, May 3, 2023 1:47 PM (fifty-seven minutes ago)

haven't we covered this multiple times before?

back to the article and this It sounds like an interesting subject (why does our society not value platonic friendships as much as partner or family relationships), but the author seems to be putting on a kind of performance in the middle of it, which is just distracting.

this is not a novel question and i don't feel like it's one that could be answered by this one woman describing her malfunction in cultivating friendship. i do agree that we lack nuanced language (in English) to discuss platonic relationships which also contributes to the above issue about crushes. i 100% get that "crushes" can be platonic but then what distinguishes that from a romantic crush? we need more/better words imo. it will make friendship easier and more highly valued if we distinguish it from romantic attraction.

And, if I read you right, Lechera, it's perfectly possible to have an intense attraction to a new friend without wanting to kiss or go to bed with them.

yes, that's totally normal i think? i just wish we had another word for it because crush is typically associated with romantic attraction that does involve kissing etc.

I have definitely had friends, men and women, to whom I am powerfully attracted, whether physically, mentally or otherwise, without wanting to have a romantic or sexual relationship with them.

before this gets out of control --

no one has questioned that

no one has denied that

no one is suggesting that is BAD

i am saying we don't have a good way of describing it so we choose the loaded term that means something else
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/have%20a%20crush%20on

A friend of mine used to refer to new relationship energy (NRE) which makes a lot of sense to me and is not romantically charged to my knowledge.

I do wish I could make more new friends. I grew up pretty isolated, made my first big friendships on the internet and then when I hit uni and actually met ppl irl that shared my interests, that was truly magical for me. As you graduate out of your 20's and work/family takes a bigger role and I'm still kinda adapting to the fact that the days of ppl just wanting to hang out all the time are over. Doesn't help that London is a city where "good friend" means "we meet once every 3 months".

i feel like it needs mentioning in this thread that our extreme isolation is related to capitalism. as an introvert i understand the need for alone time, but i think it's safe to say that too much isolation is not ideal for us as human beings or the people who are in our lives.

As was posted upthread, I'm tired of this family/friends binary our cultures insist on.

Map, I'm asking out of genuine curiosity here...would you be able to unpack the capitalism element a little?

I moved back to the city I grew up in recently and I've had to start making friends again for the first time in maybe five or so years and thus far it has been a rewarding, enriching experience. I think I'd forgotten that new people can be, and often are, great, and don't have to be a source of worry. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, but I'm happy that I've been able to break through that anxiety barrier.

la lechera your comment about new relationship energy is super interesting to me. i'm a cis gay man and men in general are highly conditioned to think that anything at all means let's fuck and it's a severe handicap imo. i'm experiencing a flash of 'new relationship energy' right now and although there's certainly physical attraction, there's also other things that feel more valuable to me. for gay men there's this wild pressure to believe that fucking in and of itself is the end all be all. after partaking in that for a few years i've come to the conclusion that it just isn't so. i still hear from friends that men are 'just like that' and my response is always, i'm a man and i'm not.

xp it's much easier for labor to remain disciplined & powerless if relationships are purely transactional or simply nonexistent.

not to do map’s work, but capitalism’s mechanisms depend on isolating individuals and keeping them isolated so that they will be dutiful workers and consumers. the 2.5 kids, picket fence and etc is all a part of that, as is urban hustle yuppie culture. one cannot have actual friends or relationships outside of those that are obligatory because they get in the way of keeping up with the Jones’.

yep and under these circumstances the nuclear family becomes a kind of replicator / breeding ground for capital / labor relationships. hyper-success-oriented parenting is basically that imo.

frankly, i made many more friends during the pandemic than i did in the years previous, but it is because i began running workshops and having part of my existence take place entirely online. now many of these people are my actual friends, if they weren’t before—

i also think that being a gay dude who doesn’t and will not have children has freed me from many of the boundaries (aka family, kids, “career”) that allow for cultivation of friends in adulthood. it helps that so much of my particular field depends on a certain sociality, too.

fwiw i'm not trying to diagnose anyone's lack of friendships itt, just suggest that it's a larger trend related to very strong economic/social/political currents right now.

Your mileage may vary. Some of my closest friends are people I've known since our kids were all little, they've all grown up together. We connected over the kids, but have developed our own relationships separate an apart from that.

To me, someone freely admitting they have no friends is a huge red flag.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Tuesday, 2 May 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Who does this? Depends on the tone in which they say it.

Many people get to a position in life where they end up fairly isolated. I wouldn't put a 'red flag' on it.

― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, May 3, 2023 5:01 AM (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This definitely worries me when I hear it from someone I’m getting to know. Also, the “I don’t have any longtime friends” thing.

But yeah, per what xyzzzz notes, life experiences are varied and we all arrive at this moment from different directions.

Yeah, I guess I was thinking of the people I've known who wear not having friends almost as a badge of honor.

xp yeah, it can be related to so many things. i, for one, managed to leave a cult that included my nuclear family during my mid 20s. which means i had to start over, but also that i wasn't in a position to give the kind of 'good safe vibes' that nurture relationships because i was personally devastated. 15 years later i've finally done enough work that i'm ready to be a friend. the red flags should be less about the number of friends in a person's life and more about a person's level of commitment and skill in relationship building - i.e. are they moving more fully in that direction rather than just staying where they are.

this is not a novel question and i don't feel like it's one that could be answered by this one woman describing her malfunction in cultivating friendship. i do agree that we lack nuanced language (in English) to discuss platonic relationships which also contributes to the above issue about crushes. i 100% get that "crushes" can be platonic but then what distinguishes that from a romantic crush? we need more/better words imo. it will make friendship easier and more highly valued if we distinguish it from romantic attraction.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

fwiw the ace and aro communities have _tons_ of words for different types of attraction, for instance the word "squish":

https://aromantic.fandom.com/wiki/Squish

that said an issue with neologisms in general is that people can have... pretty diverse interpretations of what a given word means.

the whole idea of friendship is interesting to me because of the extent to which it is, for me, a _queer_ phenomenon. i have trouble putting into words the difference between my experience of queer friendship and cishet friendship, but it's a deeply felt thing for me. maybe this is why i so naturally think of ace and aro people as queer when other people have more difficulty seeing them that way - because of the way they look at interpersonal relationships in ways that are outside of the sorts of social interaction i was taught.

the family/friends boundary is also a lot more fluid for queer people - a lot of times there's this sense of "found family" or "chosen family", and part of it that often our blood family rejects us, but to me it's more than that.

what’s this a “red flag” of, anyway? Unabomber type stuff?

Nah, just someone I don't want to spend much time with or trust at all.

I'm feeling all these posts. Most of my closest male friends are straight, and I like to think I've queered them when they show me more verbal and physical affection than they do around each other. I have moments after some weed or a couple drinks when I eye them; those moments of slippage are normal, and they've gotten used to it (and they're flattered).

It sounds like they don’t want to spend much time with people or trust them period so it seems like a win win

xp

Which is fine, unless we are in a situation (e.g., work) in which I have to interact with them on some level.

Which, I guess, is not the same as friendship, but it's usually an indication that the person will be problematic to deal with (at least the kind of person I've been talking about).

Ohhoho yeah when people you don’t really know start saying weird shit like that and you can just see the metaphorical spotlight go on them in your mind… that is rough

I'm feeling all these posts. Most of my closest male friends are straight, and I like to think I've queered them when they show me more verbal and physical affection than they do around each other. I have moments after some weed or a couple drinks when I eye them; those moments of slippage are normal, and they've gotten used to it (and they're flattered).

― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i think about this sort of thing a lot. one of the things that strikes me most about people doing "no homo" is that they feel the need to not be _homosocial_, there's not much of an understanding of the difference between homosociality and homosexuality. when my social circle was more cishet, the levels of emotional deprivation and touch starvation were just off the charts. god forbid a man compliment another man. and two men _hugging_? that's one of the things i love about watching old films like _wings_ - people look at it today and see these two men who love each other passionately and affectionately and think "gay!" but the more i look at it the more i'm like, why aren't all guys affectionate with each other like this? it's one of the things i see trans guys have the hardest time with, the way men aren't... they're not just not _passionate_ with each other, they're very often just not _kind_.

and what's interesting to me is that queer erasure works in sort of the opposite sense with queer women - the whole "sappho and her friend" trope. i've seen comics where queer women talk about, you know, making out with their best friend and saying "it's too bad neither of us is gay", and meaning it! i kind of get it, though, often those boundaries aren't clearly delineated, and honestly, that lack of clearly delineated boundaries _does_ sort of cause trouble sometimes. still, at least i get to _hug_ and _compliment_ people i care about now, which is really nice.

i crave a kind of free and rollicking homosocial relationship tbrr

Guys younger than 30 ime lean -- at last -- towards physical expressions of love, and it's not just Miami Latinos. I've seen a slight generational shift; don't know how the next one, ravaged by COVID, will do.

it depends on the group I guess. I have one group of buds from another state who are all fairly progressive and we do hug and compliment each other on things like hair and clothes and stuff like that. if I said any of that stuff to my friends here in rural Wisconsin I'm sure I'd get a weird look. like a Nathan Fielder type situation. "oh...ok..." the only time I ever hugged one of those guys was after the Packers won the Super Bowl.

Invite me over to one of your Super Bowls.

we can get homosocially rollicking right quick

shit man, you don't wanna know what I'd do for the Packers to win another one

"when the packers win the super bowl" is more homosexual than homosocial iirc

the wide receivers were happy

anybody else have the class of friend "friend I met blackout drunk and have no recollection of how we met but I'll trust you that we hit it off"

Speaking of neologisms — like 17 years ago a student told me that in Konglish they call physical platonic affection “skinship” which I still think is cute and useful. It came up in a conversation about pet peeves. I know I’ve mentioned this at least once but it seems useful.

yes, that's totally normal i think? i just wish we had another word for it because crush is typically associated with romantic attraction that does involve kissing etc.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Wednesday, 3 May 2023 19:58 (two hours ago) link

I think it is pretty normal for sure! It's inherently intimate to get to know someone, and to let them get to you know you, I think. Maybe especially for introverted people but for most people in general I would guess. A lot of great friendships, though, have developed out of sexual tension. I bet most people can see that in their lives? I know I can.

oh i think i have misread like 80% of this thread. golly.

you haven't!

The most recent person who I became good friends with I met 4-5 years ago through another friend. I’m not sure how it happened, but she and I really connected and we’ve ended up spending a lot of time together. I love her dog, a shy miniature dachsund

I’m not sure I will meet another good friend like that in my remaining life

Lots of good stuff on the thread.

---

not to do map’s work, but capitalism’s mechanisms depend on isolating individuals and keeping them isolated so that they will be dutiful workers and consumers. the 2.5 kids, picket fence and etc is all a part of that, as is urban hustle yuppie culture. one cannot have actual friends or relationships outside of those that are obligatory because they get in the way of keeping up with the Jones’.

― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Wednesday, 3 May 2023 bookmarkflaglink

The next generation is having less (or no) children, a lot of people aren't in the housing market and living a precarious existence. But I wonder whether living in a city at least lessens the isolation a bit. That there is a potential there for friendship making, but a lot of that potential is unrealised too, perhaps.

i want to note that many of my friends are 10 years younger than me— so many people my age have succumbed to the kids and a house thing that just doesn’t jive with my existence or experience. most friends who are my age are queer.

capitalism’s mechanisms depend on isolating individuals and keeping them isolated so that they will be dutiful workers and consumers.

i feel like Capitalism is more adaptive than that. If you look at all the products and services that exist under the auspices of making human relationships more "meaningful" ... it's parasitic; it adapts to its host.

I think about the stupid small town i grew up in. My parents moved there shortly before i was born (because they could afford a house, and they couldn't afford a house where they grew up 30 miles away). So, they didn't have that built-in community that comes from either being "from there" or an urban type of environment where there is more public/common space. So, when i was about 2 years old, my mom was done with being a stay-at-home mom and wanted to go back to work but there was the issue of childcare. So she joined this informal group of other moms with kids about my age and they basically took turns hosting the half dozen kids at their houses and coming up with activities for the kids. So each mom got 5 days off from dealing with her kid, in exchange for one day dealing with 6 kids ... and this took place outside of capitalism. And the moms made friends with the other moms.

Now these types of things, which are, I feel, positive ways of human organization, aren't necessarily antagonistic to Capitalism, from Capitalism's perspective ... if Capitalism can insert itself into these organizations, then Capitalism is cool with it.

xxp yeah honestly living in a big city makes it easier to disappear in plain sight. everyone is anonymous and programmed to tune each other out. you're encouraged to develop that kind of tunnel vision as a virtue.

in a place like New York you can complain to a total stranger and they may be more inclined to read it as an expression of solidarity than hostility. sometimes you can join in a conversation that a group of strangers are having if you are passionate about the topic without coming across as crazy, or rude. it's complicated.

but walking around the park or somewhere by yourself, nobody is going to approach you or speak to you. outside the city, that's almost unthinkable.

sometimes you can join in a conversation that a group of strangers are having if you are passionate about the topic without coming across as crazy, or rude. it's complicated.

I think this is something I'm quite good at. Whatever it is about me, I can easily strike up conversations with people in pubs or (to give a recent example) in a cafe at the airport about whatever they're reading or what's on the telly, and people will talk to me in a pretty ordinary way for a few minutes and we might have a laugh and then we are DONE. We could even continue sitting next to each other, but there will be no further interaction. Sometimes that's all you need to get through the day.

^otm!

i feel like Capitalism is more adaptive than that. If you look at all the products and services that exist under the auspices of making human relationships more "meaningful" ... it's parasitic; it adapts to its host.

I think about the stupid small town i grew up in. My parents moved there shortly before i was born (because they could afford a house, and they couldn't afford a house where they grew up 30 miles away). So, they didn't have that built-in community that comes from either being "from there" or an urban type of environment where there is more public/common space. So, when i was about 2 years old, my mom was done with being a stay-at-home mom and wanted to go back to work but there was the issue of childcare. So she joined this informal group of other moms with kids about my age and they basically took turns hosting the half dozen kids at their houses and coming up with activities for the kids. So each mom got 5 days off from dealing with her kid, in exchange for one day dealing with 6 kids ... and this took place outside of capitalism. And the moms made friends with the other moms.

Now these types of things, which are, I feel, positive ways of human organization, aren't necessarily antagonistic to Capitalism, from Capitalism's perspective ... if Capitalism can insert itself into these organizations, then Capitalism is cool with it.

― sarahell, Thursday, May 4, 2023 9:27 AM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

When I was small, shortly after my parents divorced, my mother struck up a bargain like this with a group of other moms with kids. We’d go to parks or pools or trick or treat, etc together.

going back to the whole pandemic thing ... for me it felt like a "reset" ... like, an opportunity to evaluate my habitual social circle and whether these are the people and places I felt good about? And in some respects, these friends are like family of sorts in terms of the length of our relationships and the shit we've gone through together. But then, in terms of my blood relatives, I am the family member that shows up maybe once every few years ... as in, I am distant there too?

The moms all became close friends (some of them had already known each other well), though that frayed with time. My mother is only close with one of the other mothers today, but the connection was probably pretty essential for all of them back then.

I would hope that these sort of social things happen now, because they’re what helped a lot of folks get through.

When I was small, shortly after my parents divorced, my mother struck up a bargain like this with a group of other moms with kids. We’d go to parks or pools or trick or treat, etc together.

― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, May 4, 2023 7:46 AM (one minute ago

yeah! ... the activity I remember most was D's mom who had us make crepe-paper spiders for halloween decorations! ... D and I actually ended up being pretty close friends in high school lol.

I feel like the expectations of friendships have changed a lot in the last decade. the instant access to everyone via electronic messaging and social media has people kind of expecting more from their friends. not really referring to responding to messaging, where if you leave someone on 'read' too long they flip out at you (that's not a 'friend' thing, that's a 'i don't understand boundaries' thing).

but people expect you to check-in w/ them more often. less people seem to be ok with only checking in once in a while. whereas my best friend and I only chat like once every few weeks, lot more insecure friends seem to pop in and then think something's wrong if you haven't msged/called/texted them in a while. whereas I never had people complaining about that to me in like, 2005.

it's like the baseline for communicating shifted, now people are used to talking throughout the day every day.

mom's friends call her frequently and I'll hear her say "ughhhh I really don't want to talk now" and I'll respond "then don't - tell them you're not up to a conversation!"

people expect you to check-in w/ them more often. less people seem to be ok with only checking in once in a while. whereas my best friend and I only chat like once every few weeks,

idk? i don't feel this pressure? maybe the people that want friends like that are just not my close friends ... possibly for that reason?

one of my best friends moved across country last year ... though we are now working together on various projects, so the regularity with which i hear from her is often dependent on work cycles ... one of my other best friends is in a band that will go on tour for weeks at a time, and so sometimes i talk to him every day, or every other day, but not when he is on tour or dealing with rehearsing/recording stuff ... like, at my age, everyone has a bunch of other things going on in their lives: work, family (either kids and/or aging parents) that will occupy them a lot, so it isn't like when i was in high school and me and my best friend would pass notes to each other every day in class.

xpost basing it more on venting that I hear from my close friends about some of their shitty friends. or venting I hear from shitty people with this behavior.

never forget the time in the 90s my mom had a rough day and decided not to answer the phone and a few friends called and she didn't answer and later that night they called again and in frustration my mom answered and they told her they were about to call the police, thinking something was wrong.

I definitely have friends and relatives, particularly ones who live alone, who seem to exist purely to make phone calls and check in with me every single day. I had to have a stern conversation with one of them after she rang me three times in one day. The third time I said "I'm not answering the phone to you again today" and she said "but it's before 10pm" and I said "I am trying to watch a television programme with the husband, though, and you keep interrupting it."
It particularly annoys me because she's one of these "I don't know how you can live with someone, I've never wanted a partner" people, which I respect, but then you don't get to avail of the upside of having a partner, which is that you have someone to companionably watch television with in the evening without getting bored or lonely. Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your life decisions, you know!

xpost yeah I have one close friend that I talk to daily, another that is my workout accountability buddy so I hear from them about that daily, most others it's 'when the mood hits right'. with my best friend, we are comfortable and trusting of each other enough that we can go long periods of time without chatting and pick things up as if no time passed as soon as we touch base again.

xpost basing it more on venting that I hear from my close friends about some of their shitty friends. or venting I hear from shitty people with this behavior.

haha, i was actually going to say, i have a friend that i am sometimes closer with and sometimes less close, but we've known each other a long time ... anyway, her current bff, they have that messaging multiple times a day type of relationship ... and then once a year or so they seem to have some kind of falling out related to communication or various other things. I think her relationship with this friend is more high maintenance than her relationship with her live-in bf ...

Basing one’s social beliefs (on p much anything) on someone else’s venting is a road to nowhere ime

I mean, i base what I see on my environment. it's not like I heard one friend complain and put a flag in the sand.

that plus the fact that I don't get out much nowadays = the bubble i'm in

i think it's sometimes a road to somewhere ... whether that somewhere is a popular destination idk

Partly as a result of knowing the same city and community for going on 30 years, I have an array of friendships that would be far too confusing for me to try to actually keep track of, so I just kind of rely on normal circumstances or events keeping me in touch. (I moved away for about 8 years in the middle of that time, but thanks to local message boards I stayed in pretty close touch with a lot of people, was no stranger when I returned.)

I have basically one official "best friend," if I do 1-on-1 stuff with somebody other than my wife it's generally with him. Mostly that involves hiking together, getting lunch regularly, plus he also hosts a regular poker game, which is one of the places I keep in touch with other people. Then I have a separate friend circle that that best friend isn't even part of, although everybody knows each other. That circle came out of my alt-weekly workplace of a few decades ago and revolved around a downtown bar where we all used to hang out. That group includes a core of 3-4 who are basically my other best friends, they're the ones I've gone to lots of music festivals with. Then there's another set of people who are "couple friends" for me and my wife, people we'll go out to dinner or get drinks with, etc. Some of them know friends in the other groups, but a lot of them are people we know individually as couples rather than as part of social circles. One couple in particular we are close with and have traveled together, taken trips to the beach and New Orleans and shared an Airbnb, etc. Then I also have a specific circle of guy friends, 6 of us total, which includes my best friend and some of the members of the poker group. We have a group text called The Birthday Clan because our big thing is we all go out for a group dinner on each other's birthdays every year. We've also taken some Birthday Clan trips together — including a somewhat hilarious four days in an RV touring baseball stadiums in the Midwest, and a trip to a vacation home on St. Martin owned by one of the guys' fathers-in-law. There are other subsidiary circles, including a whole other poker group that I almost never make it to because I just don't have time.

Anyway, my wife and I talk about what it'll be like if/when we move away from here and lose these cascading levels of close-to-casual friendships. I would miss it, but a.) I know we can always come back and visit, and b.) we seem to be OK at making friends, so probably we'd meet new people wherever we land. Plus, to be super corny, my wife is my actual best friend, and for all the other people we know there are a lot of times we just want to hang out at home with each other and the cats.

never forget the time in the 90s my mom had a rough day and decided not to answer the phone and a few friends called and she didn't answer and later that night they called again and in frustration my mom answered and they told her they were about to call the police, thinking something was wrong.

― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal)

maybe it's just down to who i know but this has been a city vs. burbs thing ime. in the burbs you shut off your phone for a few hours and your friends start calling each other like, "has anyone spoken to Deflatormouse today?? can someone stop by his place and make sure he's alright?" which is awfully sweet if perhaps not too desirable.
in the city you don't communicate with anyone for several months and then one day you get a text saying "hey man, how's it goin? we should totally hang out, uh, eventually!" :)

and then you try to make plans and they never respond

“we should catch up!” after you’ve been talking to them for a half hour. no this is it, this is us catching up. what are you talking about?

sorry i guess those are more “old friendships” answers

Old friendships

But I wonder whether living in a city at least lessens the isolation a bit. That there is a potential there for friendship making, but a lot of that potential is unrealised too, perhaps.

― xyzzzz__

i definitely think it does, my friends who are more rurally located have a lot harder time with it than people in urban environments. i'm not even talking about "queer" necessarily, small towns can be pretty fucking conformist.

but walking around the park or somewhere by yourself, nobody is going to approach you or speak to you. outside the city, that's almost unthinkable.

― No, 𝘐'𝘮 Breathless! (Deflatormouse)

well, solitude can be hard to find in a city. that's the flip side of it, sometimes people just want to be alone, you know?

i feel like Capitalism is more adaptive than that. If you look at all the products and services that exist under the auspices of making human relationships more "meaningful" ... it's parasitic; it adapts to its host.

I think about the stupid small town i grew up in. My parents moved there shortly before i was born (because they could afford a house, and they couldn't afford a house where they grew up 30 miles away). So, they didn't have that built-in community that comes from either being "from there" or an urban type of environment where there is more public/common space. So, when i was about 2 years old, my mom was done with being a stay-at-home mom and wanted to go back to work but there was the issue of childcare. So she joined this informal group of other moms with kids about my age and they basically took turns hosting the half dozen kids at their houses and coming up with activities for the kids. So each mom got 5 days off from dealing with her kid, in exchange for one day dealing with 6 kids ... and this took place outside of capitalism. And the moms made friends with the other moms.

Now these types of things, which are, I feel, positive ways of human organization, aren't necessarily antagonistic to Capitalism, from Capitalism's perspective ... if Capitalism can insert itself into these organizations, then Capitalism is cool with it.

― sarahell

see the thing is for me the way people organize themselves socially has _changed_ since then. yeah when i was growing up i knew all my neighbors and the parents pitched in people took care of each other, but it's like the "bowling alone" thing, right? i feel like people in general don't have as many in-person social bonds, don't socialize with each other as much. i could be wrong on that, i was never able to have kids so i've never been part of the whole social scene based around parenting.

idk, i could be wrong, i feel like a lot of the historical ways for people to socialize were based around the nuclear family and around religion. and honestly i'm not sure the nuclear family is even a good basis for that, i might even argue that it represents part of a larger trend capitalism has towards atomizing and individualizing people

that's the main thing, i kind of feel like maybe for capitalism to work it has to keep people apart, "there is no such thing as society really", that sort of thing. like as it's become more powerful it doesn't need to accommodate people, it's more able to make people accommodate _it_.

maybe it's just down to who i know but this has been a city vs. burbs thing ime. in the burbs you shut off your phone for a few hours and your friends start calling each other like, "has anyone spoken to Deflatormouse today?? can someone stop by his place and make sure he's alright?" which is awfully sweet if perhaps not too desirable.

― No, 𝘐'𝘮 Breathless! (Deflatormouse)

fwiw i'm in the city and my friends _do_ check in with me regularly to see if i'm ok. unfortunately it is kind of something they need to do, though :(

idk, i keep getting ads for "minted" a service that allows you to design a gazillion types of wedding-related things? Like, "people coming together to celebrate" is a major engine for Capitalism. It's less about atomization and individualization (though maybe our definitions are different), and more about inserting itself into every possible bond. As in, capitalism is the adhesive that solidifies our relationships? It doesn't want us not to have relationships, it doesn't want us not to socialize, it just wants to be an integral component of everything.

Hinted at this on the companion thread, but to me there is a way that new friends are often, um, preferable, to old friends since they more current to wherever I am now whereas old friends that aren't seen on a regular basis soon start to incur this kind of "catchup debt."

When my kids where first born I thought "hm, maybe I will be friends with the parents of the other kids." This happened to some degree, but was very limited and not sufficient. I actually started to become a little more outgoing when talking to people in my neighborhood or even people in other contexts such as, say, the people I might see at lunch near my office.

idk, i keep getting ads for "minted" a service that allows you to design a gazillion types of wedding-related things? Like, "people coming together to celebrate" is a major engine for Capitalism. It's less about atomization and individualization (though maybe our definitions are different), and more about inserting itself into every possible bond. As in, capitalism is the adhesive that solidifies our relationships? It doesn't want us not to have relationships, it doesn't want us not to socialize, it just wants to be an integral component of everything.

― sarahell

if i'm not anthropomorphizing too much, i sort of see these two phenomena as representing different aspects of capitalism's strategy towards self-preservation. inserting itself in all forms of human interaction gives it the opportunity to neutralize or subvert anti-capitalist social activity - to exert control over social norms, encouraging some, discouraging others. at the same time, particularly as its larger effects grow more and more obviously malevolent, keeping people apart from each other can be a more effective means of social control.

well, solitude can be hard to find in a city. that's the flip side of it, sometimes people just want to be alone, you know?

Ha, you're telling me!

Years ago i frequented this thing called Tea With Strangers. you'd sign up via an app or website for an organized get together with 6 strangers at a cafe, and everyone would talk for 2 hours. it was a great idea and incredibly well executed. the thing is, a lot of the participants were turning up somewhat regularly, so after you've been to a bunch of these maybe only half the people at a meeting are still strangers, and you either develop a rapport and become friends with them or you don't. i did, for a glimmer. it helped that some of them were very inviting and inclusive and a joy to be around. the guy who started it was really sweet but bizarrely envisioned it becoming a silicon valley tech empire.

the point that i was trying to make about nobody will talk to you in the city, is that usually nobody will talk to you in the city *if you're alone*. if you're with a small group of people, you know, that's totally different. that ime seems to be the thing that makes people feel comfortable approaching you.

there was a time when i used to go around with a cardboard sign, like if i was on my way somewhere, on the subway, or sitting in the park, i had a sign inviting strangers to talk to me. and i have no idea what possessed me to do that, except that i was having a limerent episode and doing all kinds of really out-there shit. i wasn't lonely or anything, i specifically wanted to talk to *strangers*. i mean i was working as a witch's "apprentice" in the Bronx, basically i was a professional fortune teller. i think i was on some kind of a mission, however misguided. i felt kind of badass and also angelic, like the sisters from Charmed LOL.

i had a few people come and tell me their life story, but i mostly just sat there with a cardboard sign looking like an idiot, it was burdensome and a little embarrassing. if i put my sign down and picked up my book, someone might talk to me about the book. mainly the thing that made it inviting or enticing to others was to already be having a conversation with someone else that they could join.

outside the city it's different. i don't know. i go to remote-ish nature areas in Long Island by myself and some people want to chat. 'hey! another person!! how's the water today?? i think i saw you here last week!'

old friends that aren't seen on a regular basis soon start to incur this kind of "catchup debt."

― Because the Nighttoad (James Redd and the Blecchs)

yes. that and we're not necessarily enthusiastic about the same things we were into 15 years ago. are there still activities we both enjoy or is there stuff were're both excited to talk about?

i think the social expectation is that someone who wants to talk to a stranger has to start the conversation. i'm not sure, though, understanding social expectations doesn't really come naturally to me.

The big issue for me is that I am many people's "old friend" and maybe 2-3 of them have time/have made the priority to actively be my friend anymore (make time to talk, hang, visit, whatever). The remainder of these people still care about me, but they aren't there/aren't able to be for me in a subatantial way beyond the group text. We are not talking about old friends, though.

Everyone has different thresholds for determining that someone is coming on too strong or seems excessively aloof or whatever falls in betweeen. That we would be able to manage modern adult life (with or without kids) AND develop the intimacy required for satisfying friendship is a total fucking miracle. That it could be sustained (or even initiated) during a global pandemic seems like a gargantuan ask.

In the event that someone truly becomes a new friend, I think it's a beautiful miracle and something to be revered/cherished as quietly or as loudly as one sees fit (again, this depends on the person)

As for me --> I have a pretty large number of people in my life who are acquaintances or just-below-the-surface circumstantial pals (people I have played music with, new work pals at new jobs, internet friends) -- and I love that and am glad to have people to shoot the shit with. But only one person I can say has moved from being a total stranger to a friend I can rely on during the last 5 years.

i don't know if it's a social expectation exactly, but yeah, that would have been a much more effective way to go about it with a higher success rate. uh, i feel like if you have a sign, you're kind of saying other things with it. like 'please participate in my cutesy little social experiment/art project' and probably 'i am a person who has talked to lots of strangers' and, like, i'm comfortable drawing negative attention to myself and taking risks. none of which is hugely helpful to the aim of having rewarding conversations with strangers, but i was even stupider than i am now. xp

Everyone has different thresholds for determining that someone is coming on too strong or seems excessively aloof or whatever falls in betweeen.

yes, navigating this is unpleasant and certainly a challenge

i don't know if it's a social expectation exactly, but yeah, that would have been a much more effective way to go about it with a higher success rate. uh, i feel like if you have a sign, you're kind of saying other things with it. like 'please participate in my cutesy little social experiment/art project' and probably 'i am a person who has talked to lots of strangers' and, like, i'm comfortable drawing negative attention to myself and taking risks. none of which is hugely helpful to the aim of having rewarding conversations with strangers, but i was even stupider than i am now. xp

― No, 𝘐'𝘮 Breathless! (Deflatormouse)

i, uh. i don't think "stupid" is how i'd describe it... like my particular framing is coming one of being, like, rejection sensitive and neurodiverse and having just a shit-ton of social anxiety, particularly regarding new and unfamiliar situations. it's a lot easier for me to hang out a shingle and say "hey please talk to me" than it is for me to talk to somebody else. like the other day i was passing somebody on the street and i said her pants were cute, which they were, and she just kind of blanked me, and that sort of thing just makes me feel like total shit even though it's, like, normal to not respond when a total stranger just talks to you. so it's super relatable for me.

The algs are sending me articles with headlines like "I am a 43 yo with no friends". Oh no!

friends are good there's lots of different types of them, very useful

well

the idea of different kinds of friends is key

where can i find the kind of friend where, if i threw a party and invited everyone i knew, well i would see the biggest give would be from them, and then i could sing to them "thank you for being a friend"

need a few friends who compete with each other to give me the biggest gift when i throw a party

yes otm

lol map

My definition of a friend used to be "somebody who I could ask to help me move some stuff up several flights of stairs when I moved" but I have had to reconsider that in recent decades.

the old reliable friends, 2 hunks and a truck

Say more, z_tbd

(I feel like there’s a whole rainbow of friendship types but I’d have to really think on it to break them down)

Do it!

i'll never forget the day i met hunk #1. it was the same morning as the day i met hunk #2, but i'd seen the truck in town before

i remember a lot of our early conversations centering in on my furniture and the stairwell. they seemed oddly fixated on it

1 friend
2 friend
red friend
blue friend

i do have actual thoughts about friendship, though, might try to type them up a bit later

this is not part of those potential actual thoughts, but i do think one funny friend category is "my friend who is almost my therapist"

weird typo: i meant "my friend who is also my therapist"

I am THAT friend for at least one very longtime friend, which used to frustrate me but I’ve kind of accepted it now

(Meaning I’m the therapist)

oh, i meant actual therapist! tbh, though, i was thinking of the friend in The Room who is tommy's friend and therapist, but upon visiting wikipedia i see that the friend is a psychologist by profession, rather than Tommy's psychologist, if that makes sense.

however, my first therapist was awesome, and i would have loved to have been his irl friend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqyVe8tfLm0
I ain't asking much of you

need a few friends who compete with each other to give me the biggest gift when i throw a party

― ꙮ (map)

a big box with waldo jeffers inside

aka hunk #1

hunk lore: they both believe they are hunk #1

ILE has reached its limit

Hunk would smash!

This is great team building, I think we’re ready to design a search engine

Using only marshmallows and dry spaghetti strands!

aka hunk #1

― ꙮ (map)

call me when you get to hunk #49

rainy day hunks #12 & #35

so many hunks u just shout out their number and they show up

Like hunk never happened

"friend??"
https://imgur.com/a/rIxxYOK

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Lol!

I couldn’t get it to work either but it was funny.