Making positive generalisations about people in other cultures/races

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"We went on holiday to India and found the people so friendly"

"Parisian women are so well dressed"

"B&Q find that old people make very trustworthy workers"

Are all these things OK to say if making any negative generalisations about the same groups is frowned upon (except with the French I guess - everyone is rude about the French, yes yes I know there is a serious point about racism only being meaningful if it's directed at a culturally disadvantaged group. ok just forget the Parisian women example)?

Isn't it a bit of a nonsense to give any creedence to positive generalisations if negative ones are automatically dismissed?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Not all chinks are good at math (looks in mirror)

― ModJ (ModJ), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Doncha just love empty platitudes?

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"Parisian women are so well dressed"
Ridiculous of course. It's less harmless than saying negative things. My mother (and father) do this a lot when talking about Japanese culture. *sigh* Only recently they have vented about certain Japanese people. I was... pleasantly shocked.

― nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

you're a credit to your race!

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Where's that "soft bigotry of adulation" thread?

― ModJ (ModJ), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, that sounds good.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My mother (and father) do this a lot when talking about Japanese culture.

Nathalie, your father is Momus?

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"Japanese women are so sweet and well-mannered" etc.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

But what if, in the western definition of "polite and well-mannered", it is a trait displayed by far more women in Japan than the west? These generalisations may be stereotypes but stereotypes usually form for a reason.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"The soft bigotry of loose adulation" comes to Iraq.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"Gay men have such fabulous taste."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, we are specicially talking about generalisations here, not facts or rules. So can they be both bigoted and correct?

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.louisck.com/sounds/racism.mp3

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

How are we meant to take URALLGAY in the context of this thread?

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

generalizations like that are always a problem, they are always not true; its reliant upon a conception of people, nations, geographic regions as being unified in ways which they aren't

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha between this thread and the Rosa Parks comment, Mark, you aren't doing well for yourself today! I have yet to meet a Japanese woman who was any sweeter or well-mannered than anyone else I know. I know a Chinese girl who cries a lot, that's as good as I can get ya.

Gay men DO have fabulous taste though, haven't you seen Queer Eye? Etc. Also Jews are really good with money.

BLACK PEOPLE SURE EAT A LOT OF CHICKEN.

(The reason why these comments are bad is because they're faux-positivisms masquerading other instincts and it helps no one)

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

How are we meant to take URALLGAY in the context of this thread?

Up the ass?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

how is eating a lot of chicken a faux-positivism? maybe cuz red meat is supposed to be bad for you? but then, isn't that just another faux-positivism?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

BLACK PEOPLE SURE EAT A LOT OF CHICKEN.

This reminds me that I haven't eaten lunch.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe if you're a chicken farmer that's a positivism

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

My possibly waverable view is that Barry is right and personality-based stereotypes (negative and positive) usually have some grounding in reality, but that these have a cultural, not genetic basis and that repeating negative ones about culturally disadvantaged groups is not something people should do. I'm not sure what I think about repeating positive ones about these groups (the 'hey, black people have natural rhythm' horror looms large).

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

how is eating a lot of chicken a faux-positivism?

Okay then, MANDINGO TO THREAD if you want to get ugly about it!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you been to Japan much?

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove a point here, just give the thread more to discuss. Do you really think I'm a racist?

(I don't think anyone on ILE can find urallgay offensive. It's directed (in its "humorous" if overflogged guise as a postmodern insult) at any spammers in tha house. okay?)

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe you're a racist chicken farmer, and you're all like "I hates black people!" and then some college kid with ripped jeans and long hair comes up to you says, "but black people eat a lot of chicken!"
then the racist farmer is all like "I loves black people!"

is it also a faux positivist generalisation that I think all racist people talking a charming Yosemite Sam patois?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha, I can't conjugate!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Noble savage = bad stereotype

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Solved: Why White Ppl are Assholes

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus Mark, NO ONE THINKS YOU'RE A RACIST (EXCEPT MAYBE ETHAN BUT HE THINKS EVERYONE IS A RACIST SO THAT DOESN'T REALLY COUNT).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I was asking Ally, Dan.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

the noble savage is not only a generalization it is a rewriting of the native american figure (to name only one figure) to reflect and embody the White European's own discontents and desires

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't want to go the Mandingo route...Fried chicken eating is neither negative or positive but a generalization and was brought up in the context of generalizations that exist "for a reason".

It's becoming harder to justify that point of view because what might have existed years ago to cause a generalization "for a reason" isn't likely to be the same now, for many reasons including cross-cultural redivision/redistribution and race mixing and just the evolution of time for god's sake.

xpost Mark you are really kind of suckingly serious lately aren't you. DID THE 'HAHA' STARTING THE FUCKING POST NOT GIVE IT AWAY? PERHAPS I SHOULD POST IT TWENTY TIMES A LA NU-ILX SO YOU CAN SEE IT IS A JOKE. Shall I link to the Asian women/white men thread for examples of Asians taking offense to the stereotype?

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Fried chicken eating is neither negative or positive but a generalization and was brought up in the context of
generalizations that exist "for a reason".

I know, I just saw the opportunity for some of that great H.Mann Humour that's sooo in demand these days.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

It's better than emo bullshit, that's for sure.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, i mean that the image is in many respects a construction. images like that can be constructed by the community or by outsiders. but they are gross oversimplifications that when seen as largely true make life miserable for individuals who don't fit into it, because no matter how 'true' it may be in general, there is always an enormous amount of similarly true facts that must be denied in order to make it true.... but what would the benefits of positive generalizations be, then?

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Because people like making points about other cultures.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

You don't get it, do you, Ally? Sorry to be "serious" like it's a fucking crime but maybe just ONCE you can reply seriously too without buffering everything but everything you say with varying levels of sarcasm and hostility.

Email me off board if you want to talk about it any further, I'm sick of it on here.

(x-post - this is emo bullshit too. Or maybe it's just sincerity.)

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

because it makes the world, which is large and contradictory and confusing, a little bit easier to understand (although that understanding is necessarily fallacious)

xpost

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the alternative? Denying the existence of different cultures at all and insisting that humanity is just a collection of 6 billion individuals?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Barry should totally be the touchy, loveable asshole in Whit Stillman's next film.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

no not at all, just learning the difference between statistics and people

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

on the coffeetable of a genuine real RACIST i saw a copy of a book about race relations in america (he's a big supporter of bell curve science etc), and the back of the book asked (and i'm paraphrasing) "why are we so afraid to admit that america's best football players are black?" etc

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, Dan made fun of you for the exact same post and you didn't bother to get pissed off at him. Fuck you, please go back to posting on "This is the thread where I..." until you calm down a little recently, jesus fucking christ.

Horace, I agree with you and I"m not saying there is an alternative but what people contradicting this are saying is basically what you just said, this understanding is pretty much totally fallacious and becoming a lot more so in this crazy information age.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan doesn't rip me apart in every thread, Ally. Fuck you.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

no not at all, just learning the difference between statistics and people

You assume that people don't realise that already.

Inserting 'statistically (of course there many exceptions)' into every sentence gets a bit tedious.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan doesn't rip me apart in every thread, Ally.

I don't? Damn, I'm slipping.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think we are (re: football). Most are also men. Physical differences are less slippery then ones of behavior.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan, just crack like three jokes about the taking-to-long-to-come thread and you'd be ABOVE me in the ripping him apart sweepstakes.

N., it seems to me that your argument against all of this seems to be assuming that it is a fallacy that these "positive generalizations" aren't used to propegate some negative stereotypes cf. the Asian women as submissives thing.

xpost bnw a lot of people get huffy about the black people = better athletes thing! Physical differences are definitely not less slippery among races, I think--men v. women is a different story.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Ally, where they are used to propagate such things I am against them. I don't think they always (or even usually) are, though.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

You assume that people don't realise that already.

well, some people don't.

the problem when approaching individuals with these generalizations in mind is that they then have the burden of representing something else, a culture, a race, a gender, whathaveyou. some people choose identities as politics, others would rather not have to deal with the associations at all, but they can feel inescapable at times.

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Part of the issue is that black people are allowed to be strong athletes but they aren't allowed to be smart athletes (cf "Wow, Grant Hill is so articulate!" MOTHAFUCKA, GRANT HILL WAS AN HONOR STUDENT AT DUKE!).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

whereas engineers and computer programmers are SOOO articulate-flaval!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT would you not think that a consistent stereotype, whether or not the person saying it thinks it is positive, might be harmful overall? This is kind of what I'm saying with the outdated stereotypes thing: enough people keep saying something they remember as a "positive generalization" and it just keeps going long after it remotely has any basis in reality.

This is not very articulately expressed.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan, don't they do that about athletes of all races, though? If a football player over here has a degree they are classed some kind of boffin (not least by their team mates).

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Black people dance like this!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

(It'd be great if I actually had something interesting to add here)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a good round table discussion of this issue wrt Queer Eye in the current Paper:

http://papermag.com/cgi-bin/frameset/magazine.cgi?mag_03/mag_dec03/queer_eye/

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick, you're absolutely right, but it's particularly egregious with black athletes; regardless of pedigree people are amazed when an athlete can actually speak in complete sentences, never mind the fact that most of them have been the pinnacle of every athletic situation they've been in and as such are used to talking to the press etc.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

one of the things I like about QE4TSG is that all five of them have distinct personalities and are allowed to show them. Like, if I was gay, I would probably crush on the hair guy, but would wind up just being used by Carson and dumped on the nearest curb with a broken heart.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Why Dan! You're so eloquent!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost.

Dan OTM. Here, high school football players are afforded them same reverence as pro teams. Well, nearly, and they given almost as much press coverage. So yr average 17 yr old who makes the All Star game has already had a lot of experience talking to real live reporters.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha Spencer! (But the Huckster beat you to it from the other direction; Canadians are a wiley folk.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

filipinos are all very nice people.

polacks like me are dumb-asses.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Abercrombie & Fitch salespeople are very good-looking.

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

irish people are also very nice. even the mean ones in northern ireland.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

new yorkers aren't nice.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I know some crazy ass coke-snorting gun-wielding filipinos! Dumb fucking Pole!

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Women are often very Womanly.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I've often thought "dog eat dog world" to be vaguely racist.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha Felicity, there are two problems with that one:

1) You're talking about a group of people who are being actively selected based on a particular look.

2) COME TO BOSTON and I promise you we can walk into any store and find a butt-ugly salesperson.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

but the crazy-ass coke-snorting gun-wielding filipinos are the nicest crazy-ass coke-snorting gun-wielding people you'll ever meet!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

boston is nicer than houston.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm half Arab. Not a terrorist, though. And no I'm not Muslim, either. And no, my dad doesn't wear a turban. But I CAN correctly pronounce "babaganouj" and "hummus" and yes, I've even ridden on a camel (at the Bronx Zoo when I was 6).

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I like everybody, except those f*ckin' eskimos.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha we should turn this into the Cities With The Ugliest People thread (because I am an awful person).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i like AY-rabs cause they make good gyros and cause they so bad-ass.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"who's putting footyprints all over my nice, clean desert?"

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

wilkes-barre, PA or schenectady, NY = cities with the ugliest mofos.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I rode a camel once too, it was horrifying.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

asian women like it in the butt!

― the angry cowboy (dick), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Casuistry seems to think Saskatchewan people are better looking than Manitoba people.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I see someone's never been to Elizabeth, NJ.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i ain't touching that one with a ten-foot pole ...

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha Felicity, there are two problems with that one:
1) You're talking about a group of people who are being actively selected based on a particular look.

2) COME TO BOSTON and I promise you we can walk into any store and find a butt-ugly salesperson.

Yes, that's the "joke." The class action racial discrimination lawsuit against A&F. It was on 60 Minutes.

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

EVERYTHING in elizabeth, nj is fugly.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't either. Them shits nasty.

― Allyzay, Monday, 8 December 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

though there are also some really good mexican and ecuadorian restaurants there!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I got impatient:

Let's pick the city with the ugliest people!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it racial discrimination if you only turn down the ugly minority applicants? It's an interesting legal question.

http://www.channelone.com/news/2003/06/18/ap_abercrombie/

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

OH MY GOD! "Two Wongs Can Make It White"!!!!!!!!!! WTF?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"Lawsuit IN STORE for A&F" bwahaha

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Shops and restaurants discriminate against ugly people all the time in their hiring policies. Ugly people are unquestionably a discriminated against group. I can't see why any lawsuit should fairly fail. But I like looking at pretty waitresses, so I am complicit in the whole thing.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

hu flung pu?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Casuistry seems to think Saskatchewan people are better looking than Manitoba people.

No Huck, he just thinks (knows?) you're better looking than me!

― Bryan (Bryan), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Dan, those bad ethnic puns for companies are usually made by someone of the group being punned. Hence about a zillion slogans on the side of Asian small-biz vans which say 'you've had cowboys, try the Indians!'

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh you didn't know about that Dan?

http://www.ftwr.net/Images/wong

Wokism:

http://www.king5.com/business/M_IMAGE.ecc1070c00.93.88.fa.80.868fa102.jpg

N, what's alleged here is that, according to A&F non-white = ugly. Interesting fact question for a jury: Is the plaintiff hot or not?

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

connect the dots

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry - yes, I was off on my own tangent.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I never heard about this, largely because I avoid Ambercrombie & Overpriced as much as humanly possible.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

It sells clothes for OC characters anyway.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

And besides when was the last person you saw who was non-white on A&F product placement fest Dawson's Creek?

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I avoid Abercrombie because their clothes are ugly, of poor quality and made by little children who probably couldn't get hired at one of their retail stores because of thir hideous, gnarled hands, stooped backs and thick eyeglasses.

Also, khaki does nothing for me.

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Asians are excellent bowlers.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Old Navy sells very similar stuff that fits me better and costs a fraction of the price. (Of course, I just realized that I am currently wearing the ONE A&F shirt that I own.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm good-looking. Or at least better looking than Bryan. Either way, it's now officially recorded on the Internet and therefore true for all time.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually my mother wears a very cute puffy down vest she got at the Ambercrombie outlet.)

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i fire rawsuit in coult

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

It's even worse when people make positive generalisations about their own race, obviously.

Totally dud anyway.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

but the irish are a race of MEN OF OATS

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

My mum does this alot, she tends to suggest that people from Dublin are lazy and never work a day in their lives, whereas people from rural areas are hard workers and honest as the days are long.

Oats. I'm lovin' them.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

It's even worse when people make positive generalisations about their own race, obviously.

Like when I use my Irish Catholic background to deny any self-culpability for the fact that I'm drunk rage-aholic who doesn't wear rubbers?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, there's a thing. "Positive" stereotypes only have to be positive to the people using them, they can still be accurate AND negative to whoever's being stereotyped. Like, "I'm Irish" can be used by anyone who's 1/1024th Irish to excuse "I like to drink a lot!" And yeah we do, but it's a pretty serious problem, with carnage every christmas and new cut-back pub opening hours because it turns out that we can't actually be trusted with the key to the liquor cabinet. Most people agree that we drink too much, but most people don't like the solutions.

(massive xpost, I started writing about the same time as Ally's emailaddress!)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

The fighting thing, I have no idea about.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

polacks outdrink the irish, yo! and it's TRUE!! so i have an excuse if i ever turn into a homeless wino.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

are the Polish more genetically inclined to misplace their housekeys as well? I was not aware.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

if i'm typical of poles ... YES

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

who's got hairy backs?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the notion that all Native Americans are deeply spiritual people. I wish I had never encountered evidence to the contrary.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

well, that ties in to one of the reasons these generalizations come into being in the first place. Often minorities come to public prominence in particular fields, or certain fields attract more attention. I mean, we all know that Jackie Robinson was the first baseball player to break the colour barrier (in Montreal), but what about the first tax attorney?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Who was the first baseball player to break the sound barrier?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

with regards to Native Americans, Chief Dan George was very well known in his day, but how many of us know about architect Douglas Cardinal?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 8 December 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

One of the things I liked about seeing Native American author Sherman Alexie speak a few years ago is that he totally went off on the "spiritual Indian" stereotype.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 8 December 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: "spiritual Indian" vs "magic Negro"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

can you rub an indian's head for good luck?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the notion that all Native Americans are deeply spiritual people. I wish I had never encountered evidence to the contrary.

right. the statistical rates of alcoholism and suicide reflect this. but then we would have to address their actual social conditions.

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

at least, the rates 5 years ago, to be honest.

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

positive stereotypes:

the british are so polite.
the irish are so friendly.
the french are so direct.
the spanish know how to party.
the italians know how to cook.
the czechs know how to party.
the swiss know how to make nice clocks.
the austrians are very clean.
the germans are so efficient.
the scandinavians are all so beautiful.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i never knew half of them :)

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think anyone seriously goes around thinking that most swiss can make clocks. Also - Austrians clean?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Jesus, the magic Negro. I saw In America last night, and was initially afraid that Djimon Hounsou's character would be reduced to a symbol of crazy, scary NYC (angry black artist dying of AIDS), and was glad that he wasn't, but then he turned into a magic Negro. Argh.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

what's that?

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"Oh, you're from Bern? Would you mind whipping up a nice little cuckoo clock for me?"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think anyone seriously goes around thinking that most swiss can make clocks.

what kind of watch do you wear? they also make excellent knives and produce good dairy (esp. chocolate).

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Reference points for The Magic Negro:

The Legend Of Bagger Vance
Radio

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Driving Miss Daisy also.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I meant to list that one too.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Also: Ghost

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Not Scatman Carruthers?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The Hudsucker Proxy?

― felicity (felicity), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha I was going to list The Shining! But that's another movie stereotype; the Ineffectual Black Character Who Snuffs It First.

More on the magic negro:
http://www.blogcritics.org/archives/2003/06/08/203754.php

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

the ultimate magic negro:

http://207.21.243.204/images/6592.jpg

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

and better scatman crothers than scatman john!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

OMG THE GREEN MILE! I mean, it's in the script and everything! (I think there was an attempt there to subvert the entire magic Negro paradigm but that got lost on the cutting room floor in favor of Michael Clark Duncan feeling up Tom Hanks' syphillitic wang.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Mmm, crusty.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate you now, Ned. EEEEEEW.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Who needs bootyflakes when you have...well, anyway.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

this is the white fear that someone else may have access to something we don't because we're white.

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, forgot the emoticon:)

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't not say that there are enormous issues in me just reconstructing the problem in terms of white desire. there are nearly too many to list. i'm enrolling in an online humor course asap. :)

― possible m (mandinina), Monday, 8 December 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Can I just step in here and post something else that I may or may not regret after ten minutes' time? Sure? You're up for more cannon fodder? Okey dokey.

I hate the fact that I've got Native American blood in me. It is the bane of my aesthetic existence. You want to know why? It's so potent in its power to dictate what I look like. If I don't have on this outwardly apparent look of utter delight and sunshiney-ness, I look pissed off. I scare myself sometimes. This is not good, because if I'm going to be going around scaring myself, what kind of luck am I going to have gaining much-needed friends? I will be completely lost in thought and catch my reflection in a window or something and I will freak myself out by how angry I look. I want to look soft and cuddly, not like I'd bite your head off if given the chance. Damn it.

Screw that whole notion of the "spiritual Native American", the Dances With Wolves bullshit that gets referenced time and again by Native American fetishists who think they'll encounter some tribe somewhere who'll teach them how to live a life that is centered and harmonious with the Great Earth Spirit. Heh. Talk about myths. Nope, folks, we is scary-lookin' people and I for one would jump at the chance to get rid of its influence on our appearance.

Hm. <kidding level="slightly"> Oh, I know! Plastic surgery! </kidding>

― Tenacious Dee (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

There's certainly a Native American "look", but it differs and becomes more varied as you travel further afield (as do white Europeans). Also, I never had an opinion one way or the other on general attractiveness/unattractiveness w/r/t First Nations people up here in Canada (somehow "Native Americans" always sounds wrong to me north of the 49th parallel). Seems to me like there's the same proportion of scary/beautiful as in any other race/group of people.

But I do agree with the silly romanticizing of the culture (probably guilt driven). We can all learn from any culture, and have done. White Indians (Windians?) are all-too-common around here. I know a white pipe carrier, which seems kind of odd, but hey, whatever turns your crank. If there were more Native priests maybe it'd seem fairer (cultural expropriation/imposition having been pretty one-sided, historically).

Personally, as a Caucasian immigrant, I don't fetishize it, but I wouldn't be ashamed of it, either.

Ian Astbury to thread?

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(as do white Europeans)

In Europe, I meant, in case that's not clear.

― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Hello, I'm Ian Astbury.

― Ian Astbury, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

stereotypes: the language of truth.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Good old fashioned home spun Irish wisdom there, DV...

― Anna (Anna), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

ian astbury's indian name: dances with ray manzarek

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

the flip side of positive stereotypes:

the british are so polite. / the british are condescending
the irish are so friendly. / the irish are simple, naive folk
the french are so direct. / the french are rude
the spanish know how to party. / the spanish are drunks
the italians know how to cook. / the italians are fat and carnally obsessed, lacking in mental capacities
the czechs know how to party. / the czechs are irresponsible
the swiss know how to make nice clocks. / the swiss are anal
the austrians are very clean. / the austrians are into ethnic cleansing
the germans are so efficient. / the germans are robots
the scandinavians are all so beautiful. / swedish chix R HOTT u r all gay!!!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

please note, the above are NOT my beliefs, merely examples of how subtle the difference between soft and hard bigotry are.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

well of course the germans are robots! that's why they're so cool!!

http://www.in.gr/musiccd/ixos/images/kraftwerk.jpg

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.golconda.de/bnw/pics/nazi_robot_thumb.jpg

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i would like to repost the best thing said on this thread, by ally:

"The reason why these comments are bad is because they're faux-positivisms masquerading other instincts and it helps no one"

And as Ronan (?) said it's just as bad when people sell themselves short by characterizing themselves in stereotypical fashion.

I've encountered so many people from different places lately, and conversations inevitably turns quickly too "in Italy..."/"in America..." etc. and I find that much too often people try to get by socially by spouting lots of supposedly flattering stereotypes and generalizations, and even people who know better seem to lapse into generalization because it's more fun than acknowledging that people in different countries are often quite the same.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

at a party recently:

"he's brazilian"

"ooh you must have rhythm"

sometimes the line between knowing parody of stereotypes and expression of these stereotypes themselves is blurry. i think people really shouldn't rehearse them at all if they're not very aware of the way their company will take them.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

picture this, Sicily 1951...

― Sofia (blueski), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Women be encouraging economic growth through consumer spending, yo!

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess the point made miles above, about generalisations that are neither positive or negative, is important. I didn't want to get bogged down in stuff (relevant as it is) about negative views hidden behind a veneer of positivity.

But to stick with positive ones for a moment - what about the old people example? If we are to respect old age, what can it be for but postive attributes? Or is it just a moral obligation? And what, for that matter, would be the flipside of "Old people are reliable workers with good life knowledge therefore we like to employ them in hardware superstores"?

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i feel like its a moral matter to combat generalization

why are we to "respect old age"?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I only said 'if we are'. Lots of people do think one should, and anti-ageism activists are often making points about how the skills that old people can bring to the workplace are often neglected.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

N., what universe are you living in where old people are considered reliable, good workers to major corporations?! (Note I am not saying my personal belief is that they are or are not)

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

They aren't generally - but B&Q (a major hardware superstore) made a big point that they wanted them, and employed loads.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think "old age" is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I mean you have to respect anybody who has outlived something or other, because, at least for most of us, life is hard. It'll kill ya. The guy that said that didn't get to be an old guy. So the mere fact of existence endured for a longer period of time than absolutely necessary to propagate the species or whatev, is deserving of some sort of prize beyond prune pudding and a spongebath.

x-post

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That's odd. I don't trust old people at all, they're all crazy.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i do not respect my landlady and she is like 80 and lived through the occupation.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

B&Q got media props by combatting ageism with positive generalisation.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Working in an old seafaring town, as I do, OLD PEOPLE ROCK!! They can keep me entertained & informed for hours w/their stories of baltic convoys, korean war etc etc etc.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I keep reading B&Q as BBQ and am horrified every time I read it by the idea that N. is endorsing cooking the old to be honest.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't like to generalise about cooking the old.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that would taste like beef jerky.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Which beef jerky. Every beef jerky is different.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

James Thurber had a fine generalization collection, memorialized in his essay "What a Lovely Generalization!" He talked about when and where he found some of them and why he particularly cherished some of them, such as "Generals are always afraid of their daughters" and "Peach ice cream is never as good as you think it's going to be." May I have "Asians are good bowlers" for my collection, Spencer? Then whenever I use it I can tell the story of this thread.

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

texturely, I meant. Cuz old people are already cured. Flavour would depend on how you seasoned 'em and where they lived.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

http://static.onino.co.uk/pix/400/39/39098.jpg

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

meanwhile, I've been thinking for a while that there should be an EU enforced National Stereotype Day where all Europeans must conform to their national stereotype. I think this would be a great way of improving mutual tolerance through appreciation of difference.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

hurdy gurdy

― svenm (blueski), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"Peach ice cream is never as good as you think it's going to be." is otm.

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Mary got some really good peach ice cream at the ice cream place in Dumbo that was much better than expected.

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the place on the esplanade by the brooklyn bridge? their ice cream is good.

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah! What is that place? Brooklyn creamery or something?

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This is sounding like a rejected Seinfeld script.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

it's called the brooklyn ice cream factory.

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(terrible name, i know)

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"New Yorkers always talk about stuff."

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks, jody.

"Brooklynites make good ice cream."

― felicity (felicity), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Would never pass, as politicians would be too scared to appear hypocritical.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i act out my ethnic stereotypes every day (i.e., stupid and condescending). i don't need a special day for that!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never won a war, so I suppose I do as well.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I am a red-hot lover and I ride a scooter. I once killed a man who looked at my sister.

(one of the above is untrue)

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Note to the curious: I've seen Barry riding his little scooter.

Either of the other two could be the lie.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I looked at his sister.

― Julio the friendly ghost (jdesouza), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahaha

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 10 December 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...

I've seen Barry ride his little scooter.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 29 February 2004 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

*stares at post made by self on December 9, 2003*

*continues to stare*

*blinks*

*blinks some more*

*hides under computer desk*

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Sunday, 29 February 2004 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

six years pass...

Hello, I'm Ian Astbury.

― Ian Astbury

― buzza, Monday, 27 December 2010 07:51 (fifteen years ago)

It is hard to make an accurate generalization, even when speaking of generalizations. Therefore I will eschew making a conclusive declaration of classickness or dudhood.

I would rather make the observation that humans will never stop making generalizations; it is how our brains are built. It requires intensive training in self-awareness to stop oneself from making them, and even that level of intention is not good enough to halt the process entirely. Some will slip through regardless. A strict vow of silence is perhaps the only remedy.

― Aimless, Monday, 27 December 2010 16:08 (fifteen years ago)

generalisations are handy enough

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:13 (fifteen years ago)

i hate this but i especially hate people making positive generalisations about their own race.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:32 (fifteen years ago)

"the irish are great craic, when you meet a german it's grand, but they're not, you know, FUN"

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:33 (fifteen years ago)

at the same time different places have diff. cultural atmospheres and social mores so, but yeah in gen the things ppl say when they say these things sound p. bullshitty.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:35 (fifteen years ago)

xp yeah! when my flight got delayed it was all irish and a couple scottish ppl and everyone was v smug abt how great each other was and v glad they didnt get stuck w a pile of english dryarses

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:36 (fifteen years ago)

usually the people who go for that kind of thing in a big way have never lived outside of ireland anyway

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:39 (fifteen years ago)

nah one guy was living in toronto for two years, moving home. the things he liked abt toronto were the things that made it similar to ireland.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:43 (fifteen years ago)

eg. meeting other irish ppl.

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:43 (fifteen years ago)

ah but cmon lads the english are a bunch of auld dryarses, cept for maybe the second generation irish ones

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:46 (fifteen years ago)

i should point out that despite this annoying me, since moving to london a huge percentage of my friends are irish. i guess just because you know one or two people from home then suddenly you know all these others. i meet lots of english/scots/welsh via work and i know people from around europe but the ex pat thing is quite hard to avoid in a way, esp if it's good people.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:47 (fifteen years ago)

is having a wet arse favourable in ireland

― cozen, Monday, 27 December 2010 16:47 (fifteen years ago)

now ur makin me think.

i dunno that a wetarse is specifically favoured, but certainly havin a dry chaffed posterior is one of the great sins over here

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:49 (fifteen years ago)

nothin worse

― plax (ico), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:53 (fifteen years ago)

presumably because it means you've not been toiling out in the rain, but instead have been living a soft life indoors, on the backs of a conquered race

― kanellos (gbx), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:53 (fifteen years ago)

could be could be

― all i gotta do is akh nachivly (darraghmac), Monday, 27 December 2010 16:56 (fifteen years ago)

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Making positive generalisations about people in other cultures/races - classic or dud?