What did I ever see in Zoe Williams?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,11812,1137661,00.html

It occurs to me that even if they start off well, all weekly columnists end up shit, and this has definitely happened to ZW. I used to like her stuff, but it's painfully obv now that her faux-naive thing is played, and her voice of yoof status is almost as ludicrous as Johann Hari's (who is actually the worst columnist in the world).

It's the faux thing that pisses me off, but also I pose the market positioning -- you read it in your twenties and wince, because it's supposedly a 'person in their twenties' telling it 'how it is' for people in their forties, but it's really too cringe-making.

So I was wrong -- moderator, delete any past positive refs to ZW from me, cheers.

― Nu-Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

She's 30, Enrique. And is extremely personable in person, fairly sound, and probably does all her work on time. Editors love her as a result.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I read that this morning, I thought it was quite a reasonable artice, you know, BY THE CURRENT STANDARDS OF GUARDIAN EDITORIAL PIECES.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder how many of the regular Grauniad bashers read the Telegraph or Times columists on a regular basis.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, give me Johann Hari over Michael Gove, Janet Daley, Melanie Phillips, Libby Purves, Barbara Fucking Amiel or whoever any day of the year.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought this would be a N. thread.

― the beebfox, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I like her column in Guardian Weekend. Complete mindless fluff that it is.

― caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Satan would be a better columnist than Melanie Phillips!

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Matt, I think you're forgetting about Christina 'one woman force of social conservatism' Odone.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure she's lovely as a person and an efficient worker and all that: even if she is thirty, though, she's still more or less positioned as having a 'youthful voice,' more so than others on the op-ed paes: she writes abt more yootful things, and often uses apparently more up-to-date slang, references. She has talent, obviously, but all the love has gone for me. Pash otm though, the Guardian makes me want to smoke crack right now, so perhaps it isn't entirely her fault.

I read the Torygraph -- for laughs really. You always know that the Guardian is going to say. The Telegraph is like woa-ah, that's insane -- so more entertaining. They're two jaws in the same trap, tho'. Johann Hari is the worst, man! factually full of shit, for starters.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

is he shagging your ex or something?

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think I ever saw anything in Zoe Williams, pinefox.

Whatever happened to Lucy Etherington?

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not just the political standpoint that bothers me about many of the above writers, incidentally. It's the rhetoric and the innacuracies, the deliberate shoehorning of events to fit the argument and the overlooking of inconvenient facts and the overbearing smugness that bothers me - everything that a lot of people berate the Graun/Indy columnists for.

The Telegraph is just as predictable as the Guardian - I'm sure there are a load of Tories who find Monbiot or Cohen just as mental.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Madchen to thread!

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I spose we've mutual frendz, but no. I just don't think he's ever written a non-pompous, non-naive, non-wrong piece. It's partly the ludicrous sub-Hitch tone, I guess.

xxxpost

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm with you on the hari bashing (this is prob only cos i had 2 or 3 years at uni reading his rubbish columns, too).

― toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

She was friends with an old flatmate of mine. We met her in a bar, she ignored me the whole time. I get her back by ignoring her column. Not that she cares, but. Mark, do you remember every single word I've ever said, or did I juice the story up a bit when I told it to you?

― Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh is hari a man? I can never work it out from the photo.

― Sam (chirombo), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Whatever happened to Decca Aikenhead? I though she was kinda foxy, as young female coumnists go.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Victoria Coren, mmm.

Lucy, maybe you did juice it up a bit. Sorry to keep Candymaning you.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I too miss Lucy Etherington. I just googled her, and could only find an article about 'The West Wing'.

However, she has been replaced in my affections by Marina Hyde. Her column in the paper on Saturday was the funniest thing I have read all year.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't even care if she looks like a young Margaret Thatcher:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/diary/story/0,3604,1135757,00.html

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Marina Hyde I like. She does the Diary quite often, which is the only bit of the Groanydad worth reading ('cept for Swells, obviously). Hey Toby, fuck Varsity, right? Right.

Decca Aitkenhead, superannuated bright young thing, is back quite often at ver 'niad and at the New Statesman. Awful awful awful.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

oh for fuck's sake... this is not a revelation... zoe williams has always been bad, decca aitkenhead is a twat (and should never be aloud to write about dancehall!!!).
marina, however, is a very sunny, pleasant person but i don't ever read her work.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

allowed!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry it's no revelation Dave! I will try only to post things that no-one has ever though of in future. However, she wasn't,always shit, and I dunno who should write about dancehall (registered professionals?) though hats off for slagging yr colleagues!

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

allowed!

and for the record, now they've paid me, the guardian is a shit newspaper, period with the WORST music coverage in the english-speaking world!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

decca's abserver review of elephant man saying good 2 go was a successful dancehall abum coz it wasn't hip-hop-influenced was a travesty - did she skip the tracks with lil jon, bone crusher and killah priest... i'd just like people who knwo about stuff to write about it or at least to listen to/read the meterial they're using as source

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

johann hari is a fat bastard too

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

and i didn't mean to be insulting to you enrique... but zoe williams has always been bad... and ile needs more revelations...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Aitkenhead is not good. The attractive picture of her that they used to use was oddly superseded, or followed, by a much less attractive one. Geoff Dyer panned her drugs book.

Williams writes far too slackly and slovenly-ly. I think that she has been promoted beyond her intelligence. I also think that it is slightly harmful that she 'writes for her generation' (mine too) in that slack, slovenly fashion. We ought to be able to do better.

I don't think I know Coren, or Etherington. Who was Etherington?

I ought to make the time to read the Nipper's link properly. Nipper, was it really the funniest thing all year?

I guess the year is young.

― the beebfox, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Trudat, but it's a slow day. I don't think she was always wack.. maybe I've flexed my head a bit since then, though. Why shit on yer doorstep anyway -- don't you want more assignments??

xposty

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Aitkenhead - waste of space. Her feature on living in the West Indies for a year was one of the most embarrassing things I've ever read.

Marina Hyde - yes, glad she's branched out of diary duties. When I used to sit up on the Guardian newsdesk towards the end of my time there I was often amused by the smart comments coming from behind me. She's posh but good.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

no i don't want any more!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

BUT NICK SHE SMOKED CRACK THERE!!! = EDGY!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with everything the pinefox just said

(I think I need to go and have a lie down)

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah getting paid to write must suxxor!

xpost

Penman trashed Aitkenhead thusly:

Rough précis: sharp columnist with a photogenic byline; down with the garage kids but with a uni education; broadsheet babe who is chilled about her drug-taking... and the agents gathered.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

pf - Etherington used to write witty and to the point TV previews for Hot Tickets (the Evening Standard's weekly TV and ents guide)

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Rough précis: sharp columnist with a photogenic byline; down with the garage kids but with a uni education; broadsheet babe who is chilled about her drug-taking... and the agents gathered.

take the first 7 words off that and the last 4 and it pretty much sums up a majority of the hataz on this thread doesn't it?

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

getting paid to have your writing about music roughly fucked up the metaphorical arse kinda suxx

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey - I ain't down with no... "Garage Kids".

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

she wasn't really down with the garage kids. i remember a horribly reactionary piece on so solid she wrote

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Rough précis: sharp columnist with a photogenic byline... and the agents gathered.

pretty much sums up a majority of the hataz on this thread doesn't it?

Not really! No agent, no photogenic byline.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

So Solid, so ephemeral

Violent speed garage is a music industry creation. It does not represent urban black culture

Decca Aitkenhead
Friday December 21, 2001
The Guardian

Those who still haven't heard of speed garage are unlikely to remain in ignorance for much longer. This sub-genre of black urban dance music has been around for seven or eight years, but arrived in the news headlines in the last month, courtesy of a group called So Solid Crew. So Solid has achieved the distinction of being the first band since the Sex Pistols to become associated with so much violence that its entire UK tour has had to be cancelled.
The Crew are in fact 30 south London youngsters, all but one male, whose hostile, hip-hop-style version of garage has already earned a No 1 hit and two Mobo awards. In May, one of the band was shot in the leg after a nightclub scuffle, then a man was beaten to death leaving their concert in Luton and last month a gunfight broke out during a performance at the Astoria in London's West End, leaving the Crew running for cover and bullets in two audience members.

The band's subsequent public condemnation of violence was emphatic, if perhaps incompatible with its own song lyrics that threaten "to beat your ass up and take you to the morgue".

Comparisons between speed garage and US gangsta rap have ensued, as has the regretful conclusion that black inner-city music is helplessly, hopelessly violent. These boys, well "they just can't help themselves". The story of speed garage is described as the ugly but authentic voice of the ghetto, whereas it would be more accurately perceived as what we do with black culture.

When speed garage first emerged from London's housing estates, it had no stars. Records produced in bedrooms, and sung by unknown girls, were played on pirate radio for clubbers who gathered in abandoned basements on Sunday mornings. Many of its DJs had come from the jungle scene, disenchanted with a genre that had once been underground but was then threatening commercial success, and turning violent.

With speed garage they had beautiful music and a cheerful spirit, but no money or celebrity - and the music industry couldn't have been less interested. Assuming there was no money to be made, record companies left garage alone.

But after a few garage tunes made a surprise appearance in the Top 10, and the resort of Aiya Napa on Cyprus was talked of as the new Ibiza, speed garage became too tempting to ignore. Music industry wisdom holds that to make money out of dance music, you must give it a face - and so why not 30 faces? Step forward So Solid Crew.

Of all the available talent to choose from, you might wonder why the industry opted for So Solid. At a stroke, all the imagination and intricacy of garage was bulldozed out of the way by 30 aggressive halfwits in boilersuits, strutting about on stage honking like geese into microphones. Although lacking any discernible talent, this gaggle of thugs were nevertheless playlisted, and thought to merit an extravagant video, a clothing line, a UK tour and a torrent of music press interest.

Top of the Pops felt it could really do something with them, fashion magazines dressed them up for interviews and suddenly everyone was excited. Here, at last, was a marketable brand they could sell to the white kids in Wiltshire.

Officially, the industry is selling organic black urban Britain. That black urban Britain was peacefully producing speed garage for years in obscurity is overlooked. Likewise, in theory So Solid was a refreshing and promising new phenomenon - until the unfortunate events of recent months. But the primary appeal of So Solid to the music industry was precisely its volatile menace of violence: because now that people are getting shot, speed garage is something to talk about. It is a cultural issue, a debating point, a moral panic.

At a gig tagged Stop The Violence In UK Garage earlier this month, one of the DJs who created speed garage in the days before mainstream music was interested made an urgent appeal: "Music is the way out of violence, not the way in. Some record labels forget that today."

But voices like his are drowned by the brash creations of the industry, angry youngsters desperate to make money, who are told they've been given a mandate to speak on behalf of the disenfranchised ghetto, but are only being paid to titillate. When the disenfranchised ghetto was singing lyrical garage melodies, nobody was listening.

And now we wring our hands at the incorrigible violence of black urban Britain. Aren't they awful, we say. But what can you do?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

30 aggressive halfwits in boilersuits, strutting about on stage honking like geese into microphones haha, this sounds more like an urban sax concert!!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

speed garage indeed!

But seriously Dave, these papers are for a spread of people from ages 16 to the grave. They aren't going to be covering grime as it happens, you know? Obviously they could be less egregiously shit, but... that's mainstream journalism innit?

― Enrique 99 (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

they should just let her write about stuff that she knows about and it would be fine

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

like make-up and shoes....

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

down with the garage kids but with a uni education; broadsheet babe who is chilled about her drug-taking...

try that Enrique?

and no PF, I'd put you definitely in the category that doesn't describe.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

did anyone see her on question time?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Marina Hyde has always seemed good. She's a lot like my friend Imo who used to deputise on Diary (Imo is even prettier languid-voiced posh blond girl, have you met her N.?). Imo was at uni with Decca and Charlotte Raven (D&C were flatmates) and has no respect for D. as she completely sold all her MCR clubber 'friends' down the river for the story that got her the break at the Guardian.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, Charlotte Raven -- that brings back memories. I liked her more than anyone else mentioned here as it goes. Wha'ppen? The Bulger piece?

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess I'll take

down with the pop kids but with three uni educations; broadsheet babe who is chilled about his alcohol abuse

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Charlotte was treated for depression a while back and I haven't seen much writing from her, but she has huge house in Kentish Town thanks to Daddy.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

there was a great filler piece in the independent a while ago about charlote raven wholesale plagiarising entire paragraphs from an ian penman modern review piece for her, thankfully, now-defunct guardian column... and everyone knows about charlotte raven and decca aitkenhead living together after raven's bout of career-enhancing lesbianism with julie burchill... they were sharing a flat at the time. this probably helped her a lot, too.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Oooh ooh Suzy, do you mean Imogen O'Rourke? She was a right nasty bitch when she was little - she was best friends with my neighbour and she was vile to me.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark, it's O'Rorke but yes - I forgot you grew up in the Putney media gulag. Was Imo flouncy Nellie Olesen evil or Machiavelli evil?

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Charlotte Raven-loony was getting much better. In fact, I only appended the -loony because the joke struck me as i typed her name. Then she disappeared off the face of the earth, gone to the same graveyard as Francis Wheen it seems (writing a book or somesuch nonsense which is a blatant cover for their foul murder. Midweek columnist in the Graun is a dangerous occupation - I fear for Catherine Bennett.

people are missing the point with Aikenhead - she looked very hott on question time.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

SHE DID NOT LOOK HOT! and she came across as the kind of overprivileged media-halfwit she is

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Francis Wheen's new book got loadsa reviews. I dunno what to make of him, though. I though CharRav was getting good at the guardian -- I never experienced the Modern Review, so missed her juvenalia.

― Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, Charlotte Raven -- that brings back memories. I liked her more than anyone else mentioned here as it goes

I liked her writing a lot too, from time to time. She was one of the few freelance columnists to use the library too, and was nice enough on the phone. I'm glad to see someone else sticking up for her - I used to be her sole supporter on ILE.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I am finding this whole 'elegy for young female columnists' v.amusing, by the way.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Decca is a very twee nickname for Jessica as said by lithping three year old.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Suzy, she was a bully. Has she changed? Actually, I don't care. Bitch.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(whoa - scary repressed childhood trauma!)

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I dealt with 'Imo' on the phone but can't remember much about her other than a vague recollection of snootiness.

2 October 2003
The Daily Telegraph

Letters to the editor

SIR - Andrew Marr (Comment, Oct 1) mentioned confusion in the Guardian's spelling of his BBC colleague Lucy Hetherington's name, claiming that the H was frequently dropped. Could it be because the talented journalist and very funny comedy writer Lucy Etherington may be more famous than a BBC producer? Can you tell I'm her mother?

Jan Etherington
Sunbury, Middlesex.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Aw, that's a shame. I actually know a Lucy Hetherington and I thought she'd become famous!

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I've just realised that I don't know who Zoe Williams is, and that the person I thought you were all talking about is called Zoe Heller.

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Tuesday, 3 February 2004 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Omigod, Zoe "My Boyfriend" Heller and her insufferable My Boyfriend column of way back when which was all about My Boyfriend. Who paid for her to go on the Booker shortlist (allegedly)?

I thought the Zoe W article was reasonably good, though she would have done better to pick a more problematic target - say DJ Wrongspeed?

(re. the latter, I understand Sherburne's equivalence in his Wire review and can also understand why he was taken off Resonance FM; yes his commentary is unforgivably misogynistic and homophobic, but the music on that Wrongspeed CD-R is blinding, everything the rest of pop isn't, just like Schoolly-D in '86)

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 4 February 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought you were using some 80s nickname for Mike Read for a mo' there. 'Wrongspeed Read'. Haha.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

everything the rest of pop isn't

now, are we calling dancehall pop here or does it stand alone?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

well it's pop innit wang chung done a song about it dancehall days!

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 4 February 2004 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

wang chung! jack ryder out of eastenders' dad was in them!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Wang Chung.

― the wangfox, Wednesday, 4 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Please stay the wangfox.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

everybody, WANG CHUNG TONIGHT!

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you some kind of pervertalist, N.?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

lady, if you have to ask...

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Deborah Ross' restaurant column in the Spectator.

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread has turned into some kind of truth or dare party.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never read the spectator, am I missing anything?

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

The friend who passes it on to me describes it as the non-phillistine Torygraph, which is abt right - v. gd bk revs

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

What's so philistine about the Telegraph?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i worked with zoe for a while at the standard; didn't know her very well, but she seemed very funny and charismatic, and was certainly well loved in the office. i can't remember loving/hating anything she wrote, but i avoid columnists in general.

― stevie (stevie), Thursday, 5 February 2004 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

I can't make my mind up abt Catherine Bennett...

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 20 February 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I rather like Zoe Williams. I think she fitted better at the Standard, where her column was about the right length to be funny (it was merely pissed girl about town but that stand out better in the Standard rather than the Guardian). I have thought the arguments behind some of her longer pieces in the Guardian mag (when i have read them) have been pretty poor, but the writing was always a joy to read.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 20 February 2004 10:44 (twenty-one years ago)

The Pinefox and I found ourselves discussing the merits of Vera Rule the other day - a truly great article on Eve Arden in the IoS TotT supplement last week (and a great little feuilleton on Cecil Beaton's prose the previous week). However, we have the terrible suspicion she is actually a bloke under a female pseudonym. Possibly even... Gilbert Adair.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 20 February 2004 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Her Gruaniad thing on irony was pisspoor, that's what turned me off. 'Feuilleton'?? Are you sure you're not Adair yourself?

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

i am gonna assume a doble-barrelled bird's name and i reckon i'll get a shitload more work

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 11:56 (twenty-one years ago)

i can see it now: candida wheatgrass-poppycock talks to elephant man...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

contentious! but, alas, probably accurate. not all, but too many editors i've known have been either: posh birds, or: sleazy guys.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

it's true...that is the name i'm gonna use anyway

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i just pitched an editor at a newspaper under the name candida wheatgrass-poppycock!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

and got an immediate reply!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Negative I daresay. Or was the pitch to Horse'n'Hound.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Spill the beans Dave. I don't believe a word.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Vera Rule is emphatically not a man, but it is a pseudonym.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you at liberty to divulge?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

no it was to a big newspaper that i have workerd for but normally takes ages to get back to me. i said that i was a public-school educated oxbridge graduate with a life-long love of violent jamaican dancehall and that i was going over there to learn how to skettel and wine. would they be interested in a feature... the reply was that they would have to see some of my work 1st... so that's a bit of a problem... maybe referencing one of my own pieces and calling it a "work of unparalleled excellence" was a slight error of judgement, but hey...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Bollocks!

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

they'll love it...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Vera Rule is Steven Poole.

― grauniad writer, Friday, 20 February 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

i am now off to email a few estate agents as mr kipper

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, that is reprehensible and not even funny. rest assured, i will not be doing this

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

good, that was a pretty shitty thing to say

― chris (chris), Friday, 20 February 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

(for people who don't keep up to date on five-year-old news)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

God! I wondered what they were on about!

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

good, that was a pretty shitty thing to say

i know, that's why i apologised immediately.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Unless I'm going mad, they must share the name Vera Rule about then, cause I'm sure it used to be a v.nice woman in her 40s with red hair, whose real name I forget.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

however, it did happen nearly 20 years ago and it's pretty fair game for jokes now. if people didn't say shitty things, then we'd never had had brass eye etc (not that i am saying i'm as funny as chris morris or anything).
*walks off to place an telephone order for washing line, cement, two large tarpaulins and a shovel under the name mr f west*

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

no, you're not as funny as CM, and he's mostly unfunny

― chris (chris), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Is he now?

― ENRQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't understand this thread. Has something been deleted?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The Mr Kipper bit was found offensive, apparently. It's a ref to some serial killer. I don't think anything's been deleted.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

well, some people have delicate sensibilities - i'm bored and dicking around and not actually doing *any* of these things

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Not even Candida Wheatgrass-Poppycock? Shame.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

oh no, that's true... i lied about the reply - it was an auto out-of-office reply!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

But Dave...they have Decca Aitkenhead to write that article.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

you had to mention it didn't you... and it wasn't that paper... anyway, hb 4 yesterday

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I have one like that - every April Fool's I seriously consider pitching to ES magazine an article about how hard it is to find good help these days, or for a round-up of toffs asked the question, 'what did your last servant die of?'

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm just writing something for the blog about ES mag - i'm livid today, it's outdone even itself

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha on Monday night I saw the vilest thing at the Fendi party*- Nicky Haslam with hair hacked off and dyed blood-red. Ewewewewewew.

*yes yes I know...

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 20 February 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely all the words after "Nicky Haslam" in the above are redundant?

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:16 (twenty-one years ago)

You can add to the base feeling of terror with extra horrors though.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I just spent a very happy half hour skimming the Guardian archives for old Vera Rule pieces and they are wonderful: there's nary a hacked, lazy line among them. The idea, therefore, that she is a pseudonym for the execrable Poole is plainly absurd.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll email my old colleagues to ask if you like. If I'm right about who it is, she does sometimes write under her real name too. I'm sure it started with a V as well.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the confusion arises because they occasionally share a byline on the capsule book review page on a Saturday.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The Talk of The Town writers have lovely names. Vera Rule, Hermione Eyre, Violet Cooper. It sounds like it was put together in a room full of feathers and chaise lounges.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 20 February 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Rule != Poole, Fool.

I am glad that the Nipper is now using one of my key unpronounceable words in the same way that I do.

― the rulefox, Friday, 20 February 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Hermione Eyre! Hahahahahahahaha. Yers.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

The Talk of The Town writers have lovely names. Vera Rule, Hermione Eyre, Violet Cooper. It sounds like it was put together in a room full of feathers and chaise lounges.

that has totally won my heart! what a great image... how newspapers should be

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Erm, full of *****s who ** th** *****? Surely not?

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't know what that means and i have more bad taste crank phonecalls to make...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm close to revealing some very bitter thoughts here.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

go on, spill

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, it's not very interesting unless you're me, really.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I am trying to think of rude two letter verbs.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Wel, it was an impressionistic take. I bear no ill will.

― NERQ (Enrique), Friday, 20 February 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

So Dave, lemme guess? It's the Murder Mile Noveaux Pauvres feature written by woman whose grandmother was a deb* and it's mostly whining about how unfair it is that she doesn't have a set of arse-wipers like Gran and has to scrimp to pay the au pair as do half of 'Ackney? Now why on earth would that make you cross?

*so was mine. Big fucking deal.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 20 February 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

well it helped to whyile away a lunch hour...
http://worldofstelfox.blogspot.com/

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i hope someone burgles her

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 February 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

six months pass...

This was a great thread - in 2004!

Let's talk about Marina Hyde's recent work.

And even Zoe Williams'!

Also, any more news on Vera Rule? I read an old TALK OF THE TOWN piece by her today.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Talking of Guardian/Observer columnists, I'm a bit in love with Victoria Coren.

― Wooden (Wooden), Saturday, 18 September 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

That's just perverse.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I miss Julie Burchill : (

― Cathy (Cathy), Sunday, 19 September 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Who is Coren?

I don't miss Burchill.

Does anyone still like Hyde?

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

other than piers morgan.

― HKM, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

holy shit henry, i haven't read this thread but i really can't believe you ever saw anything in zoe williams.

― Peter Watts (peterw), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Coren, Coren... that name... Victoria 'My Struggle' Coren, as Burchill calls her, achieved journalistic fame in the Observer despite the no doubt great handicap of being Alan Coren's daughter. She writes an archetypal vapid media circle jerk Sunday paper column.

Peter -- I was very ill. Also that stuff I said about another lady writer was totally wrong.

― HKM, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Zoe Williams was always crap

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

okay, forgiven.

there are too many corens out there. i worked with marina hyde for a while, she was okay, bit of a pony lover, but not much of a writer even then.

― Peter Watts (peterw), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post: but Hyde is quite a good writer!

It is good to love animals.

Has Williams got her reputation partly because people think they are attracted to her?

JtN is right, old Rule copy still rules.

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:56 (twenty-one years ago)

ha ha, you never read her unsubbed copy! i'm sure she's all great now.

― Peter Watts (peterw), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i've just been searching the guardian archive for clues as to how i came to start this thread -- ie to find out what i did see in her. and i'm totally at a loss. i don't read newspapers much now, but when i did, i suppose it was with the somewhat hubristic idea of one day writing for them in mind. so i was naturally better disposed towards the writers. now that i'm home to a veritable tumour of bad will, those feelings are gone.

bellefox -- i'm not convinced she's too attractive. emma forrest, on the other hand...

― HKM, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I think people liked her for being the bolshy one at the Evening Standard.

Zoe is basically sound, with heart in the right place. And attractive in a bedhead/yesterday's makeup sort of way. Sometimes she is very good and sometimes she is very funny. I saw her at an art opening a couple of weeks back - don't know her that well but she commissioned me to do summat for her once - and we discussed the situation where one is self-conscious about being 'the weirdo' at a publication, but comforts self with hilarious situ where otherwise stuck-up posh girls invest in you as THEIR weirdo. Also she is not writing a book because she doesn't want to be one of those assholes who stretches column style into one incredibly lightweight piece of chicklit gawrbawzhe, just because someone asked her to.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

suzy's post has reminded me that if zw isn't 'the balls', by not having a literally emetic effect on me she is better than most. that said--

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1113902,00.html

is a slap in the face to ilx orthodoxy.

― HKM, Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

have we had a thread about Nick Cohen?

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick "You say potat-oh, I say potat-ah" Cohen?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Euan Ferguson is my columnist of choice.

― leigh (leigh), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Aw, he's awesome - and often in the pub around the corner.

Zoe: reform ILX, not conservative or Orthodox. Her favourite poster here would probably be Ally.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

oof, "Already, then, this is a more authentic musical experience than any Christmas No 1 of the past decade". what cobblers.

I only mention Cohen in passing because he credits ZW with the "whoever mentions Hitler first, loses" aphorism. obv it is quite an old internet/usenet addage, so he's off there, but i did enjoy the rest of the book all the same. much better fare than a lot of columnist filler material.

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I think ZW looks better than she writes. I am not, at least not deliberately, being ungenerous, in saying that.

Today I have been reading Polly Toynbee on PR, but that is another thread.

― the bellefox, Friday, 24 September 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I never thought I liked Julie Burchill. Her jokes were sometimes rubbish, and sometimes she made me furious, but I always read her Guardian column every Saturday morning. And...I'd grown accustomed to her bile. Now it's gone, and I miss it : (

― Cathy (Cathy), Friday, 24 September 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Polly Vernon aka Cocktail Girl . Used to be a good writer, still vaguely talented, now the epitome of a superficial meeeeeeeeeedjar fash mag slag beeyotch skimming the surface of suburban sleb-obsessed superficiality. Your eating disorder and breathless star-fucking ain't readable anymore, Polls. Bread has cred; you should eat a sandwich or two, lady.

― badger Kitten (badger Kitten), Friday, 24 September 2004 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Yep, she should change her surname to Filla by deed poll. However, what did you really expect from someone who not only allowed her (male) editor to call her Cocktail Girl, but may have suggested it?

― suzy (suzy), Saturday, 25 September 2004 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

There was a Zoe Williams at my school, it was probably a different one.

― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 25 September 2004 10:12 (twenty-one years ago)

this week's column was particularly dreadful, all about how much she's learning from translating all the warnings on foreign cigarette packets. zoe, dear, if you're still smoking then you've obviously learned nothing from them.

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 27 September 2004 06:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i quite like zoe williams' guardian weekend column. it is at least 1000x better than the horror of judy rumbold's, anyway.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 27 September 2004 07:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, am wondering how long I'll have to put up with VL-S restaurant reviews. Whoever suggested him should be found and shot at point blank range.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 27 September 2004 07:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Ugh, Judy Rumbold. That spot in Weekend used to be one of my favourite things to read while I was making a first cup of tea on a Saturday, now .. I don't even bother most of the time. Yes, you've moved to the country, yes, it's different to London. WE GET IT. I strongly recommend doing some more research next time you move house.

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 27 September 2004 07:20 (twenty-one years ago)

oh god yes i'd forgotten about vl-s. i am entirely in agreement with suzy here. i'm not quite sure which is worse, his inability to write about food or his astonishingly unamusing "jokes".

also while i like matthew fort he's seeming like nigel slater's mini-me.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 27 September 2004 07:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I am in total agreement re VLS and JR.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 27 September 2004 08:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I read the last v l-s restaurant review, and it was pretty poor stuff, I must admit. The subject matter was fairly interesting, which just made it worse.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I like guy browning's constructive whimsy column: how to make a cup of tea, how to have sex, how to complain, etc.

It might not change the world but at least it's:

a) not all about him
b) consistently funny.

― Pete W (peterw), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I have stopped buying the Guardian on Saturdays because Weekend is SO REVOLTINGLY SMUG AND IRRITATING. Was it always like this and I just didn't notice because of the bracing dose of Julie Burchill at the front? I sort of miss the Review section but not enough...

― Archel (Archel), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

The Review is all about being a doppelganger of the LRB, and therefore only 50 people want to read it.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

...all of whom contribute to the bafflingly pedantic letters page.

― Pete W (peterw), Monday, 27 September 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I mention Priscilla Voice of Youth, Saying Very Little here?

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 27 September 2004 10:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The review section is nothing like the LRB, though! Maybe it's a bit more like the TLS (though I haven't looked at that for ages). It's also got a lot thinner in the last month or two.

The more I think about the Weekend section, the more I realise that the only regular writer worth reading is Charlie Porter (*ducks*).

Voice of Youth is indeed very annoying.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 27 September 2004 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I am just grateful that Arabella Weir's intolerable column has been discontinued.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 27 September 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Charlie Porter is grate, and I say that as a totally unfashionable slob. It is a pity he has so few words to work with.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 27 September 2004 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

observer review section >>> saturday guardian review section

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

agreed.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

(no, that's not an unsigned right shift 8)

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The Observer review section is hideous! That Woodcraft bloke may be the worst broadsheet pop critic of all! And Robert McCrum!

I am really quite fond of the Guardian review.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I like staples.

― Archel (Archel), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I might as well get off this thread though since I don't buy ANY newspapers any more.

― Archel (Archel), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

at least the observer review section has something in it for those of us who can't read books. 8)

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

So woodcraft is a bloke, i thought it was a really ugly woman.

― leigh (leigh), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I like staples.

Archel in secretly Ralph Wiggum shocker!

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

"Secretly Ralph Wiggum" - brought to you by the makers of "Love Actually".

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Jerry, you impertinent lout, surely you know it's de rigeur to refer to this god among men as (simply) McCrum.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought that for the first few weeks, too. who is he? what's happened to kitty empire?

the guardian review is really not that good - sometimes the profiles are ok, but most of the reviews aren't that good/interesting. they should have stephen poole writing a lot more than he does.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The review of China Mieville's Iron Council in this weeks edition was bloody awful. V.shallow reading that skated over so much of what makes it good.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I get the Indie on Sunday over the Observer cos I prefer Romney to French and Price to Empire. However, this w/e I bought the SUNDAY TELEGRAPH because it promised to contain BOB DYLAN: INTERVIEW OF A LIFETIME.

I was sorely deceived.

― Pete W (peterw), Monday, 27 September 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

JtN ought to be the editor of the Guardian Review.

I am, I think, quite serious.

― the bellefox, Monday, 27 September 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

Lucy Mangan to thread.

The other day, ZW's picture was quite purty, I mean, quite cute.

― the bellefox, Wednesday, 13 October 2004 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Good to see someone shares my dislike of Molloy Woodcroft. He looks like a genetic mutation of the bloke from Eraserhead and Melvyn Bragg.
He's awfully musicological - describing hi-hat sounds and guitar solos in a not very colourful manner. And there's very little passion there.
What happened to Kitty Empire? Her demolition of Turin Brakes and Blur's Think Tank made me cheer.

― Stew S (stew s), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 14:37 (twenty years ago)

Molloy is one of the nicest blokes you'll ever meet. Sorry, I know that's a cliché and has nothing to do with his talent as a writer, but when you see a word like 'dislike' in combination with someone you know to be a good sort, it's hard not to defend them.

And as a supporter of Women In Journalism, I cannot support the fetishisation of female feature writers that this thread has largely turned into.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 14:44 (twenty years ago)

(Kitty is off having John Mulvey's kittens)

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 14:45 (twenty years ago)

I cannot support the fetishisation of female feature writers that this thread has largely turned into.

-- Alba (albab...), October 13th, 2004 4:44 PM. (Alba) (later)

Is this the single most disingenuous post ever made on ILE?

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 14:50 (twenty years ago)

Sorry Alba, I'm sure he's a nice bloke. I meant I disliked his writing but I know what you mean.
Kitty's off having kittens. Aaaww, that's nice. Met her at a gig once. She was cool, encouraged me to keep at the whole journalism lark.

― Stew S (stew s), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 14:51 (twenty years ago)

Markelby's post is smashing. I like it.

I guess the point is that N. had a point, but was being hypocritical?

― the bellefox, Wednesday, 13 October 2004 15:06 (twenty years ago)

eleven months pass...

It's a whole new era for Zoe fans!!

― the bellefox, Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

christ, i didn't realise there was a zoe williams thread. wow. i shall read this at my leisure. for now, all i shall do is repeat my (obviously unprinted) letter to teh grauniad magazine from about a year ago:

dear teh grauniad
is it just me, or ... is zoe williams a complete fucking waste of space?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

how so, the pinefox?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

Because - new Guardian - new spaces for Zoe W to write - new A to Z page in Weekend - with new picture of her and Mr Chancellor.

Also, though, I think it was on this thread that we discussed Marina Hyde, who is the new princess of the paper: she seems to gaze from the top of every page these days. Perhaps this is my imagination. I wonder how much more she is getting paid for doing all this extra writing? And how much it cost her to get her pro-camera appearance improved so drastically?

― the bellefox, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

And how much it cost her to get her pro-camera appearance improved so drastically?

It's called photoshop, it can work wonders for anybody. Apart from Simon Hoggard.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

diary sections are strange, strange things, probably the closest thing to student journalism you can get paid for. the well-connected marina hyde was okay at it, the other guy not. fine line between being witty and being snide maybe. i still haven't read an actual berliner.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

another heartwarming thread about a british newspaper. i love you all

― lolol, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

I am not talking about a Diary section, NRQ - that's the point, she has all these vast inches of her own now!

― the bellefox, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:31 (twenty years ago)

x-post: that's nice, thank you.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

yeah she's writing about sport today. still, i don't begrudge her success. i think it was pretty hard-won! also she was nice when i used to work with her, so all to the good.

― sfxxx, Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

Nicky Campbell is also writing about sport. I do begrudge his success.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 22 September 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

I think Marina Hyde is quite talented, at what she does; I don't begrudge it neither.

― the bellefox, Thursday, 22 September 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

Nicky Campbell is also writing about sport. I do begrudge his success.

"success"

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 22 September 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

It's too bad about Ms. Hydes' "success." I loved her diaries, I turned to them first. But her columns seem a little directionless. No doubt it's a step up from writing the diary, but it feels like a demotion.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 22 September 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

What I saw in Marina Hyde: the same streaks of good-natured spite that marble the columns of Private Eye.

I never saw nuthin in Zoe Williams.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 22 September 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

zw is just another person who was good being eaten up by overexposure. i don't begrudge her it, but maybe begrudge the guardian et al for overreliance on her as a kind of 'voice of youth' expected to talk about all sorts of things she doesn't know very much about.

― N_RQ, Friday, 23 September 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

Are you suzy in disguise?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 23 September 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

new A to Z page in Weekend - with new picture of her and Mr Chancellor.

I have to say, if more female columnists my age are going to show their legs like that I don't really care what they write.

― Forest Perv (ForestPines), Friday, 23 September 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

i'm guessing suzy wrote similar upthread, but no. she's actually met zw, i imagine.

― N_RQ, Friday, 23 September 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

I have to say, if more female columnists my age are going to show their legs like that I don't really care what they write.

eew god, though, she looks awful. she looks like she's been dragged through a hedge backwards. then forwards again. then sideways.

her column in "now" magazine is atrocious too. mind: so is "now" magazine in general.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Friday, 23 September 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

eight months pass...

welcome to 1992!

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 07:49 (nineteen years ago)

Taking as given, before we start, that Morrissey is basically perfect

stopped reading after this.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:04 (nineteen years ago)

And you wonder why I switched to the Times...

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:05 (nineteen years ago)

Weird.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:06 (nineteen years ago)

reasons to only read the stoically lifestyle column free Irish Times number 1178167

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:38 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not saying anything.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:42 (nineteen years ago)

you'd like to punch her in the face?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:50 (nineteen years ago)

(sorry cheap shot!)

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:50 (nineteen years ago)

be a team-player dom!

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:53 (nineteen years ago)

But Ronan, no more Kevin Myers! I don't know what to do anymore to get the blood boiling of a morning... Daily Mirror just not cutting it!

― Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:56 (nineteen years ago)

This article reflects the views of the Zoe Williams only and not necessarily the views of the The Guardian itself.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:01 (nineteen years ago)

SELL-OUT

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:05 (nineteen years ago)

You're damn right I sold out. I sold out in WH Smiths, I sold out in Menzies, I sold out in every newsagents in the country!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:08 (nineteen years ago)

If you think that column was bad I give you the entire written output of P011¥ V3rn0n who is just a 3AM girl with better schmutter. As long as she's out there the worst brickbats will fail to reach ZW, who is at least ten million times more fun to have a drink with (ZW and I know each other through friends who started the Idler and Blow).

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:09 (nineteen years ago)

haha
xp

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:13 (nineteen years ago)

xpost: o for christ's sake. how did i know that was coming?

suzy, next time you see "ZW", can you give her a message for me? can you tell her to FO, and to STFU for ever? and maybe even to FOAD?

thank you.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:13 (nineteen years ago)

KV_Nol, just pick up a copy of Hot Press!

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:18 (nineteen years ago)

It's usually free anyhow!

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:18 (nineteen years ago)

DNFTZW

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:20 (nineteen years ago)

Enrique, you knew it was coming because you know I'm friendly with her. You seem to keep tabs on who lots of my friends are - if only to criticise - and it's never going to do you a damn bit of good in your working life, so shut it. I would suggest if you feel so strongly about this person you can tell her yourself what you think of her, and then I might think your principles were actually worth something.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:49 (nineteen years ago)

mmm, ok, but it was grimly, not me!

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:50 (nineteen years ago)

but, you know, thanks for the career tips!

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:51 (nineteen years ago)

*ROFFLES*

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:55 (nineteen years ago)

Erm sorry H!

GF has been a numpty in my general direction for ages, yawn, no wonder I was half asleep. Most of what I said applies except for the added palatability of noting the phenom of usual grumbling sub with issues and no column.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:57 (nineteen years ago)

also: principles? how is thinking zoe williams is a vacuous waste of space a "principle"?

i did consider e-mailing her about that morrissey piece - there's an ntlworld address at the end of it. but then i looked at all the comments that had been left and thought, christ, what's the point? if that's anything to go by, every single day she must have at least two or three people saying to her: "look, you're fucking shit, why don't you jack it in?" but she's obviously getting paid well enough for it, so i guess we're stuck with her.

still, next time you go for a drink with her, suzy, i just want you to imagine me (small bloke, dark hair, sideburns, grin) standing behind her making crude "wanker" gestures and flicking the Vs at her all night long.

genuinely, she is the kind of writer who gives writing a bad name.

xpost: i used to have a column. it was, like so many columns, shit.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 09:59 (nineteen years ago)

(massive xpost) Ronan: Sure why would I read something where the reviewers haven't even listened to the albums (Weasel Diesel to thread [sorry sorry])?

Hot Press = heart attack inducingly bad. I just want boiling blood not a seizure! BTW what do you think of Foggy Notions? Great CDs with it but a little too jumpy/skittish for me I think.

― Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:02 (nineteen years ago)

(Weasel Diesel to thread [sorry sorry])

lex can help here, too.

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:03 (nineteen years ago)

I only read Foggy Notions once, it never seems to be available anywhere.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:06 (nineteen years ago)

eh? i listen to albums that i review! sometimes just once but still.

that zw piece is terrible but she's usually ok. far worse columnists out there. she did a piece on bicycles which was v funny.

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:07 (nineteen years ago)

she did a piece on bicycles which was v funny.

lol middle classes

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:08 (nineteen years ago)

(i can't ride a bike. just incidentally.)

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:08 (nineteen years ago)

Tower Records seems to be the best bet. (xxxpost)

― Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:09 (nineteen years ago)

there are indeed worse columnists out there but this is the nba, bucko.

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:10 (nineteen years ago)

zw fits alongside laura barton as someone i think has a v good way with words (and can often be genuinely funny) which is rarely used on the right subjects. hadley freeman and marina hyde are similar, except they hit the right subjects more often.

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:13 (nineteen years ago)

what is an nba?

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:13 (nineteen years ago)

lol ignorance of black culture

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:13 (nineteen years ago)

haha i get to be suzy re. one of the ppl lex named.

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:15 (nineteen years ago)

hmm, no. i don't think there is anyone worse writing for any mainstream UK publication. i think she is beyond dreadful, both as a columnist and a features writer. her topics are tedious, her arguments are facile/non-existent, and her writing is sub-sixth-form.

i suppose you could argue that, if she annoys me this much, she must be doing something right. but she only annoys me as a fellow professional. if i wasn't a hack, i doubt i'd give a fuck; i'd probably ignore her completely. as it is, her very existence gnaws at my mind.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:15 (nineteen years ago)

hadley or laura from cherwell days?

nba isn't black culture. whatever it is

xps

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:16 (nineteen years ago)

ding

― Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:16 (nineteen years ago)

GF, the principle I was referring to (now pay attention) was the one where you back up your own opinions with your own actions. As a former columist you'll know that your work is variable, and there is no shortage of numpties to tell you your work sucked the week YOU felt it was fine (especially with the fake access of today's internet). In fact, if this is the case I challenge you to find one of your columns and then one of ZWs on a similar subject and then post them side by side - and let your peers judge you. I am assuming you are at least competent.

If I were editing ZW this week I would have been unhappy with that in my in-box and might have asked for more coherence. She is usually exponentially better.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:17 (nineteen years ago)

I like most of the female Guarniad writers, with one exception.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:20 (nineteen years ago)

H*dley Fr**man?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:21 (nineteen years ago)

In ZW's defence, I suppose if anyone is inspired to go out and buy a copy of In An Aeroplane Over The Sea after reading the piece then it will have done some basic good, which, rereading the column, I think was kind of her sneaky agenda, so...good call, really.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:23 (nineteen years ago)

n fact, if this is the case I challenge you to find one of your columns and then one of ZWs on a similar subject

sadly, i never got the chance to write about the most tedious ephemera of popular culture. (or bicycles. i think i remember that piece, actually. it annoyed me.)

and as a columnist i sucked. i'm happy to admit that. with a couple of exceptions, i wouldn't want to inflict those scribblings on anyone. the difference here is that i have the capability to look at my own work and say, no, hang on, there is absolutely no journalistic merit in that at all ;)

still, like i said: if people are daft enough to keep commissioning zoe williams to write for them, and to pay her for it, what can i do? except, natch, moan.

x-post: !

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:28 (nineteen years ago)

Haha, that figures (however we are often our own worst critics for no good reason).

No, she is much older, freelance-contract, and basically fucked over an entire city's club culture to get her tabloid-style break more than a decade ago. Which is fine if you are a hardcore news journalist but moves like that are not to be used as a bridge to the bellybutton fluff this woman has made a career from. Shares a first name with an olde-style record label.

HF seems nice.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:33 (nineteen years ago)

At least the headline of this article, "Beauty and the Beat", was inspired tho', eh.

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

i imagine zoe williams's copy is an inspiration to subeditors everywhere.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 11:05 (nineteen years ago)

five months pass...

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/food/story/0,,1952729,00.html

― the pinefox (the pinefox), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 12:49 (eighteen years ago)

I can't decide whether it's the layout or the actual content of that piece that's to blame, but I found it almost physically unreadable.

― bham (bham), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

LITERALLY unreadable!

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

The new design of G2 in general is appalling!

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

Is this the Guardian's idea of writer upgrades/promotions - Petridish as male model, Williams as poor Heston Blumenthal replacement?

Presumably they'll be making Marina Hyde their grime correspondent.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 13:28 (eighteen years ago)

The lovely Emma B, when I handed her this (she knows about vegetables for a living), immediately put the G2 on the floor and stepped on it, with her wet, sandy shoes.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

the dj emma b?

― benrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

"Oh, hi, Zoe? Yeah, sorry to call so late. Oh, I woke you up? I'm sorry. Look, the thing is, Polly's let us down again - yeah - the old trouble, apparently. Anyway can you do me 700 words in 10 minutes? Oh, anything you like really - I dunno, Morrissey? Vegetables? Just make it quick, we haven't got time to read it through. Fantastic. Drinks on Friday? Great. Bye"

― bham (bham), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:17 (eighteen years ago)

I expect that's probably too near the truth for comfort.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:46 (eighteen years ago)

I hate people who throw in little "facts" that make them look more amazing, either into a conversation or a column. That thing about not liking radishes roasted "but then, I'm a borderline supertaster", as if you're some kind of FEEB because you are not, just bugged the shit out of me.

No, market traders are not annoyed by customers. No, people who eat organic food are not annoying.

Jesus, my blog is more entertaining, and I get to control the content. Why would anyone pay money to read this?

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

Hand, ZW answers her email more promptly than you do!

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

Do you think people should pay money to read your blog?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

I've worked on farmer's market veg stalls (Saturdays, this summer until 3 weeks ago, friend needed a hand) and the most annoying customers are the ones who think they're doing something to make the transaction move more easily, or the ones who have no concept of how their dithering is making peoiple cross. This is followed by posh women who don't queue and neurotic people who don't see the signs that say, in huge type, NO PESTICIDES and then proceed to ask cinque mille questions. Mind this *was* in Notting Hill.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

Couldn't you have sneaked some pesticides in there anyway, just to get rid of the Cameronite scum?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

and the most annoying customers are the ones who think they're doing something to make the transaction move more easily, or the ones who have no concept of how their dithering is making peoiple cross. This is followed by posh women who don't queue and neurotic people who [ask idiot questions]

yeh, but with respect ... isn't that the case in almost any shop? esp the ditherers. GOD I HATE THE DITHERERS.

mind you, i've not read this new work of ZW-related wonder (tbh i've pretty much given up on the guardian completely). perhaps i should do so before i rush to judgement.

then again ...

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 16:12 (eighteen years ago)

Things I don't like about ZW's article:

1. The idea of an 'organic vegetable box'. It's the donnee of the article, the given on which it all rests. But - huh? I've never heard of such a box before.

2. The dreadful moment when she tries to make a joke out of 'beard' - aimless, space-filling ZW at her worst.

3. What does she mean by 'borderline supertaster'? I have never heard this phrase before.

― the pinefox (the pinefox), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

You can't be a good Guardianista if you haven't heard of an organic vegetable box.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster - still a ridiculous thing to say tho.

― ledge (ledge), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:43 (eighteen years ago)

she is much older, freelance-contract, and basically fucked over an entire city's club culture to get her tabloid-style break more than a decade ago

Oh, I really want to know who this is! (Which is the city in question?)

― Affectian (Affectian), Thursday, 23 November 2006 00:56 (eighteen years ago)

PF - have you seriously never heard of vegetable boxes? mind you, I'm not entirely sure why I'm so surprised.

The article though? worst piece of food writing I've possibly ever read, and I read quite a lot.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Thursday, 23 November 2006 08:00 (eighteen years ago)

Do you think people should pay money to read your blog?

Well, if it would save me having to have a real job...

I'm not surprised the Pinefox doesn't know about organic vegetable boxes. They're not exactly designed for the young man about town who lives on his own.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Thursday, 23 November 2006 09:59 (eighteen years ago)

it's a box to put organic vegetables in?

― benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:04 (eighteen years ago)

Anyone got any other ideas for celeriac?

― Ned T.Rifle (nedtrifle), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

that vegetable article was terrible but generally i don't think these frisky, jocular grau female columnists are quite worthy of the bile they seem to attract. mangan, williams, freeman, barton - they've all got a very appealing young-woman-about-town tone to their stuff which makes it rather enjoyable. or maybe i just think this because i tend to read g2 on the bus home when i WANT to switch my brain off.

williams is best when she's angry - a couple of times she's written (usually feminist) columns which read like pure unadulterated stream-of-consciousness rage (eg the wags one).

freeman is really really good now that she only writes about fashion.

my favourite g2 columnist is marcel berlins though.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:09 (eighteen years ago)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0785274359.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:13 (eighteen years ago)

I am a young man about town who lives on his own and I have known about organic vegetable boxes since at least 1998.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:13 (eighteen years ago)

Celeriac makes delicious mash - half & half with potato (cut into similar sized pieces & boiled together, then mashed). Not 'totally disgusting' as ZW claims.

It's stuff like this that's really annoying:

"Raymond Blanc does a nice butternut squash with gorgonzola quiche but, to be honest, once squash goes into business with cheese, more cheese, pastry, cream and eggs, it could be anything - it could be a tomato or a Christmas decoration" - well, no it couldn't, really.

She then goes on to give the recipe anyway.

― bham (bham), Thursday, 23 November 2006 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

The fact that I don't hate this article makes me wonder where my taste mojo has disappeared to.

You couldn't hang a butternut squash from your tree - it's make the boughs bend too much.

― === temporary username === (Mark C), Thursday, 23 November 2006 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

i saw the LONGEST BNS i've ever seen in sainsburys last night and had to STRONGLY restrain myself from picking it up and waving it about and shouting "GIANT VEG WILLY!!!!!" but i managed, just about...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 23 November 2006 15:53 (eighteen years ago)

one month passes...

Bump, just because.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 17 January 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

The concept of selling-out has changed so much since the 60s - the split between high and low culture, marketing and entertainment, authentic creativity and its agency-conjured simulacrum. Back then, if you took money from The Man, you were a sell-out.

that first sentence is just... words.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

One would have thought if thrusting Thatcherkid Zoe Williams was old enough to remember the sixties she would also be old enough to remember the comedian Bill Hicks and in particular his routine regarding advertising.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 09:49 (eighteen years ago)

jean-luc godard did ads.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 09:55 (eighteen years ago)

Scott Walker has done ads.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 09:59 (eighteen years ago)

he postmodern drive against posturing generally, which holds any ideology beyond "whatever it takes for an easy life" to be openly ridiculous

Fair play tho she clearly knows her Baudrillard.

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:03 (eighteen years ago)

However it is all based on a false premise, viz. that Mitchell and Webb are funny.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:08 (eighteen years ago)

"Physical perfection is distancing. Comedy is intimate"

i mean WAAAAHT? she's making it up as she goes along.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:09 (eighteen years ago)

You can understand how ZW might WANT physical perfection to be distancing.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

jean-luc godard did ads

Specsavers, right?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:17 (eighteen years ago)

Does anyone even have an example of "Back then, if you took money from The Man, you were a sell-out"? Seriously, I'm not sure if this is just me being ig'nant or what

― Hell Hath No Furry (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:17 (eighteen years ago)

famous left-wing film director lindsay anderson did ads in the '50s. ken loach did in the '80s.

i wonder if 'selling out' is really a post-1968 concept. even then, as i say, godard did 'em, and so did other lefty directors.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:18 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

The Beatles were ostracised by the rest of the UK music scene after Beatle wigs went on sale.

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

I was just going to say it's not a "60s" thing as a late 60s/ early 70s thing, and more 70s than 60s (xpost)

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)

... like long hair

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)

"Go to work on an egg" in the '60s was Salman Rushdie!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

The Beatles were ostracised by the rest of the UK music scene after Beatle wigs went on sale.

-- God Bows to Meth (noodle_vagu...), January 31st, 2007.

and their reputation never recovered!

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

No, he was "Indescribabubble", "Go to work on an egg" was Fay Weldon maybe? (xpost)

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

yes, weldon.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

Guy Debord came up with the PG Tips chimps.

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

brian eno was the secret lemonade drinker.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

Noam Chomsky was the "Where's the Beef?" lady.

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:25 (eighteen years ago)

You see, Williams should've done her research.

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:26 (eighteen years ago)

"Does anyone even have an example of "Back then, if you took money from The Man, you were a sell-out"? Seriously, I'm not sure if this is just me being ig'nant or what"

see bill hicks entire rubbish routine on such - as marcello mentions.

M&W been doing ads for ages now. so waht.

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

that first sentence is just... words

"that's not writing," as my boss used to say, imperiously. "it's typing." i was really impressed by his aphoristic skill, until i realised he'd borrowed it off truman capote.

said former boss now works at the guardian. perhaps i could ask him to try one of his apophthegms on zoe williams. something like: "FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS DECENT IN THE WORLD, FUCK OFF AND STOP WRITING THIS PISH."

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

M&W been doing ads for ages now. so waht

Did Morecambe and Wise ever do ads? Or were they too big for that?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:31 (eighteen years ago)

They did a Keep Britain Tidy advert in the early '70s.

Also the Secret Lemonade Drinker as every schoolboy knows was the dad of PUNK PIRANHA ELVIS COSTELLO

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)

i do understand why people don't like their comedy faves doing ads, but just as professional writers have to make stuff up in order to fill the space to pay the rent, performing-arts types -- who often have a pretty hard time of it in their early careers, money-wise -- once they get there, start getting offered large sums of money to do ads. and either way 'getting there' may well involve losing a little 'integrity' along the way, before joe public ever gets to see the finished product. you can't be 'the peep show guys' forever and, well, i would cash in too, given the chance.

it's not like david mitchell sets out his store as some kind of post-eltonian poli'ical firebrand.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

Elton Welsby was a political firebrand?

― God Bows to Meth (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think Gary Newbon has ever done any ads.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

THAT'S BECAUSE HE'S AN UTTER CUNT

― The Sine Qua Non of Pie-Dom (noodle vague), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

They did a Keep Britain Tidy advert in the early '70s

Public Information innit, not The Man

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 10:42 (eighteen years ago)

M&W aren't really selling out their Peep Show characters anyway - that's their personas in everything they are in, probably an exaggeration of their actual personalities.

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

three months pass...

given that the pinefox is a fan of ZW and a fan of radcliffe's radio show he'll be pleased to note that she now does the film reviews on said program from time to time (first time yesterday, 28 weeks later)

however, she did use the phrase 'ish, much'.

― koogs, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:30 (eighteen years ago)

Her review of Victoria's Empire in the Graun the other day was pretty darn spot-on.

― Madchen, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:38 (eighteen years ago)

i don't care. she can fuck off, repeatedly and for eternity.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:12 (eighteen years ago)

To be fair, that's about the only thing of hers I've ever read that made any sense. To be even fairer, I read the review before the attribution, otherwise I'd not have read it.

However, as has been previously noted, she snubbed me!

― Madchen, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

ten months pass...

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2267872,00.html

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 14:38 (seventeen years ago)

[The concept of selling-out has changed so much since the 60s - the split between high and low culture, marketing and entertainment, authentic creativity and its agency-conjured simulacrum. Back then, if you took money from The Man, you were a sell-out. Giving yourself up to an advert is no longer the end of anyone's pretensions to creativity. Sixty per cent of advertising is more creative, and wittier, than 90% of mainstream situation comedy (I am, of course, making these figures up). And that's before you even mention the postmodern drive against posturing generally, which holds any ideology beyond "whatever it takes for an easy life" to be openly ridiculous.]

That really WAS awful.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 25 March 2008 14:43 (seventeen years ago)

What did I ever see in Marina Hyde?

rly tho, this is student paper-level.

― banriquit, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:25 (seventeen years ago)

also the foals, fucking guys.

― banriquit, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:26 (seventeen years ago)

Ah yes, MH, who said at the weekend that Suzanne Shaw had a mental age of nine because she didn't know who Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama were.

No I don't know why I bother continuing to waste money on the kind of crap I'd buy the Telegraph if I wanted to read, either.

― Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:29 (seventeen years ago)

Someone there beat me to the Terrorvision joek :(

― DJ Mencap, Thursday, 27 March 2008 14:31 (seventeen years ago)

five months pass...

How strange:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/24/britishidentity

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 24 September 2008 11:47 (seventeen years ago)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/contributor/2007/09/28/zoe_williams_140x140.jpg

Oh for ILX avatars

― Carrie Bradshaw Layfield (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Wednesday, 24 September 2008 11:51 (seventeen years ago)

That article really is odd, veering all over the place. I guess it's another of her 15-minute jobs.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 24 September 2008 11:52 (seventeen years ago)

Basically it's like this:

She's told to write 600 words about this Debrett book.

Despite there being no substantive evidence of any complaints about manners coming from the Left she goes ahead and scribbles incoherently about it anyway.

Her arguments are confused and her conclusion is obfuscatory, if indeed one exists.

A properly trained journalist would have known better, including the basics of how to structure an argument; perhaps she should read the booklet on journalism included with today's paper.

Meanwhile, here's her latest, highly original piece.

― LBC's Steve Allen good morning I'm afraid (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 25 September 2008 11:32 (seventeen years ago)

Utter "Will this do?" bollocks

― Tom D is a rattly old puffin, who remembers ILX in the days when... (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 September 2008 11:43 (seventeen years ago)

eight months pass...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/19/zoe-williams-mps-expenses-comment

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 June 2009 08:57 (sixteen years ago)

a Jill McSweeney (consultant) who, amazing, is the only name in the world without any results on Google

errrrrr no

― FREE DOM AND ETHAN (special guest stars mark bronson), Friday, 19 June 2009 09:01 (sixteen years ago)

'amazing'

― the pinefox, Friday, 19 June 2009 09:02 (sixteen years ago)

Results 1 - 10 of about 112 for "Jill McSweeney". (0.27 seconds)

although, if you add "(consultant)"...

― Mark G, Friday, 19 June 2009 09:02 (sixteen years ago)

Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs = telling a journalist how to use Google

― Then in walked Barbara Castle with the Lady Eleanor (Tom D.), Friday, 19 June 2009 09:04 (sixteen years ago)

"redactions"?

― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 19 June 2009 09:17 (sixteen years ago)

help review mps expense claims forms! only 26287 pages to go!
http://mps-expenses.guardian.co.uk/

― man saves ducklings from (ledge), Friday, 19 June 2009 09:25 (sixteen years ago)

^ guardian thread is better place for that

― man saves ducklings from (ledge), Friday, 19 June 2009 09:26 (sixteen years ago)

four years pass...

dear zoe, there are ways and means of validating and celebrating female sexuality, and you have chosen the one that invokes bullshit evolutionary psychology and generic statements that do far more harm than good

i am very disappointed

― reet pish (imago), Monday, 8 July 2013 11:23 (twelve years ago)

her thing about lord freud last week was good though

― Puff Daddy, whoever the fuck you are. I am dissapoint. (stevie), Monday, 8 July 2013 11:25 (twelve years ago)

link?

― reet pish (imago), Monday, 8 July 2013 11:27 (twelve years ago)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/lord-freud-food-banks

― Puff Daddy, whoever the fuck you are. I am dissapoint. (stevie), Monday, 8 July 2013 12:38 (twelve years ago)

suzy, explain how decca aitkenhead fucked over london

― the Shearer of simulated snowsex etc. (Dwight Yorke), Monday, 8 July 2013 12:56 (twelve years ago)

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