The Simpsons pretty much represents everything I hate about, well, everything.

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Smug liberal smartassery. Yuck.

― fries with that, Friday, 6 February 2004 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

grouch

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I know, wonderfully reasoned and thought through. But anyway.

― thread starter, Friday, 6 February 2004 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah. I consider myself fairly conservative, and with a few exceptions (the character of Cleetus the Slack Jawed Yokel, the NRA episode that may as well have been written by Michale Moore), I'm rarely offended by anything on the show. And even when I am, like, whatever, man, it's just a show - people are too goddam sensitive these days anyway, and as someone who so detests 'liberal smartassery,' surely you agree?

Show is so obviously classic. Lighten up.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Give me Mike J; keep your Matt G.

― me again, Friday, 6 February 2004 08:14 (twenty-two years ago)

i do think i've flipped back to thinking 'life in hell' is the best thing groening's ever done and ever gonna do

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:16 (twenty-two years ago)

ugh, cinniblount. classic contrarian smug nonsense - the equivalent to "that's nothing - you should hear the lathe cut 7"!!!" - those (XXX) is Hell books are OK, but come on.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ugh, cinniblount. classic contrarian smug nonsense

priceless.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Give me Mike J; keep your Matt G.

Are you seriously extolling the merits of "Beavis & Butthead" over "the Simpsons"???

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Groening created Futurama, and for that he can be deified as far as I'm concerned.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The simpsons are the John Peel of america. whether thats a good thing or not, i dont know

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

actually i might even have futurama second, even when i see a great simpsons i get nagging detections of 'that tendency's gonna catch up with em'. i still laugh, but the decline period (which still have great stuff) at this point has lasted almost as long as the golden years. if there were 1 awful 'x is hell' book for every 2 great 'x is hell' books maybe i'd thing different, or if i felt nostalgia for the simpsons (instead of just recoiling and going 'i remember these being ALOT better' which is what happens with 90% of the first two - three? - seasons) or if binky (or zoidberg) had linked up with burger king (which is weighing VERY heavily in my equating) i'd think different.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)

for all the accusations of liberalness, they never scourged either Bush as harshly as clinton... anyone remember the episode where clinton was on the make with Marge, saying "you think i'm too good for you, but i'm not... i'll do it with anything, even pigs"

― stevie (stevie), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i'm very interested in hearing how, exactly, the simpsons is 'liberal'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 6 February 2004 08:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Exactly: I don't think it's safely categorizable, since it will take the piss out of all-comers. I'd call it small 'c' conservative perhaps, but that doesn't imply anything specific in the realm of actual politics.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:13 (twenty-two years ago)

How is The Simpsons the John Peel of America? I don't get it.

― Cathy (Cathy), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

How are any of you deciding whether the Simpsons is liberal or conservative? Is it the characters or the plotlines or the dialogue or what? Is Dickens conservative because his characters are? Are all sit coms conservative because the characters stay within the given situation? Is a show conservative because it's characters say thing like "Marge, old people don't need companionship, they need to be isolated and studied to see what useful nutrients can be obtained from them..." What is it?

― run it off (run it off), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:25 (twenty-two years ago)

good question.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It's difficult to pin down, but you can sorta tell how the creators of a given show load the dice -- who do they make especially ridiculous, in The Simpsons, that sort of thing. What do they parody? Or rather what don't they parody?

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

So, who gets the worst deal in The Simpsons? Who is *especially* ridiculous? Homer is a jerk with a heart of gold and Mr Burns is a mean Victorian factory owner who just wants to be loved.

― run it off (run it off), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Selma and Patty?

I think we can assume a liberal bias in The Simpsons office, or at the very least a contrarian one.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Hypocracy in general gets the shit end of the stick. That's why, I'll say again, classic.

Still, Cleetus The Slack Jawed Yokel...ugh I hate that. It seems so irresponsible and even more inconsistent.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

contrarianism and liberalism are two very decidedly different things

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu gets a raw deal -- most English viewers see his character as a throwback to racial stereotyping common on UK TV in the 1970s.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, but he also bucks stereotypes in many ways.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

how so?

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the dream police live inside of his head for starters

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Used 'contrarian' as a polite term for 'smartarse'.

Apu: so naming him after I think the S. Ray film tells you volumes about where the Simpsons writers are at with him; I think they're great at sending up social stereotypes.

Oddly when I was really little we had a neighbour called Cletus who was...a bit slow.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, consider the episode where Apu and Manjula entertain Homer and Marge - and he starts playing the record - remember? It's all crazy weird atonal Indian music, and Apu says 'whoops' and changes the speed from 45 to 33 and we find out that its a very Western-sounding ballad. It's a small detail, but it's consistent with the creators' creative 'don't judge a book by its cover' ethos

Which is why, again, Cleetus has gotta go.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

"atonal Indian music"

atonal?

WTF are you talking about?

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah the other definition of atonal, ie not western (gad I hate that definition)

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 6 February 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

well, whatever. you get the point. atonal - as in, not reverential to the Beatles legacy - ok?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:06 (twenty-two years ago)

George Harrison might have had something to say about that.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:11 (twenty-two years ago)

The NRA episode was pretty pro-NRA, i thought.

― sym (shmuel), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

touche suzy - but that was sorta the other way around

sym - how so? as a life member of the nra i thought it painted the organization rather cartoonishly

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

err, no pun intended

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I was going to say...
But the actual members of the NRA were responsible gun owners. It was only non-member Homer that was (typically) an idiot with his gun.

― sym (shmuel), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Roger, not everyone thinks that citizens being armed is a grebt idea, and that ep was a lot softer than anything Michael Moore might have done (ie, hey what are you doing, NRA members are responsible people...).

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu gets a raw deal -- most English viewers see his character as a throwback to racial stereotyping common on UK TV in the 1970s

This is an outright goddamned lie (no offense).

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

fair enough, enrique - and like i said, i wasn't fuming over it or anything. It was still a pretty great episode.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Andrew -- it's not a 'lie'; in my experience, ppl have a problem with the depiction of Apu. Even if, in your experience, they don't, that doesn't make what I said a 'lie'.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu has it easy compared to Cletus

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that's prolly true, but I spose we're oversensitive here about the depiction of southern Asian characters because it's been a big source of cultural contention since the 60s; whereas the depiction of Americans is less of an urgent issue.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

the decision to give Apu octuplets was a terrible terrible one imo

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:33 (twenty-two years ago)

The NRA thing - surely the majority of NRA members *are* careful and responsible, but the fact that Homers *do* exist within the organisation is a very explicit criticism of American gun laws (more than the NRA). I thought about this when reading the "which of your schoolfriends died" thread and noting how many gun deaths there were, pretty much all of which were accidental.

(also, the episode showed up the ridiculousness of the concept that guns are fine for owning but never for using - I'd say that's pretty critical of the NRA)

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i've never seen 'The Cartridge Family' i don't think

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique: A good point, if your statement had said "in my experience" instead of talking for 20 million people. Do you have any evidence in the media, for example, that this view is widespread?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

http://lookinside2-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35lepjcp+lWlaRSAE7PJ2fLIyTteOnNLiuJ55KXXmBGq7/UEolu0z4sdEi

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

My wds were poorly chosen: 'most English viewers'. I can't back it up, of course. But you know, you have to be intuitive, there won't be any way of proving it; in fact, the idea is a bit of a cliche, so i didn't just pull it out my arse. Ie, publication of a book about anti-redneck hate doesn't prove it existsn either, but it almost certainly does exist -- opinion based on private conversations, not statistical research.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with the poster. God how I hate to laugh.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Friday, 6 February 2004 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna cite Goad too - that's a brilliant book.

Consider if Cletus was instead Susan The Rug-Munching Bulldyke or Jamal the Low Standardized Test Scoring Negro. It never had aired, right?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

it never 'would have' aired. sorry

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

what's your point? homosexuals and blacks have been treated harsher in the past than 'hicks' - not really the same thing

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

actually poor whites have had more in common with blacks economically in the US than they have had differences. "No Irish Need Apply" was a common sign and "Shanty Irish" was a class-based insult. Union-busters and the business class used racism as a wedge to keep them from united based on their common economic interests.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not sure Cletus is of Irish descent though?

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The popular image of the "hick" descends from Americans of Irish and Scots-Irish descent.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Orbit otm. Stevem do some research.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Union-busters and the business class used racism as a wedge to keep them from united based on their common economic interests.

Is probably true, but also an interesting illustration of how language can let you down. *How* did this process manifest itself exactly? Did the exploited have no role in it?

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

and to clarify, this is because of immigration patterns: the Irish went to the American South, and the Slavs and Italians to the North.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique, there are some really good books on the subject, written by historians. Titles escape me at the moment, however. The basic process was this--factory owners would tell the white workers that the black workers would work for less, in order to quiet demands for higher wages or better working conditions. If the workers made a strike, and blacks were hired, the arguments became racist in addition. I remember an account of a strike in Maryland, I believe, where the workers were initially racially mixed. They made demands, and the factory owners used racist ideology to divide them. I really do apologize for not having references at the tip of my fingers and going on memory here, but you can google American Social History: Labor and Race Relations and find some references, I'm sure.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

How is The Simpsons the John Peel of America? I don't get it.

good, solid, worthy, done a lot of good things. underneath the surface, creeping conservatism, family values stuff.

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

that's all well and good Orbit and roger but what it comes down to is that racism is the ultimate taboo in TV and while Irish 'hicks' and 'yokels' may well have found themselves in the same boat economically as the guys being slaves and then chased by Klansmen, they weren't actually victims of racism (you can class anti-Irish sentiment as racist but i've never been too happy with that considering it's technically not a RACIAL issue) but another form of prejudice based on cultural rather than racial stereotypes. that's why it's perceived as 'more acceptable' to mock caucasian stereotypes than negro ones i suggest.

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

but that's unfair in so many ways. I'm part Austrian / Hungarian - should I look into seeking reparations for gypsies and vampires?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu is actually one of the more symptathetic characters in The Simpsons - my dad is hyper, hyper sensitive to Asian racial stereotyping and even he isn't offended by it.

Is any reference ever made at all to the fact that Carl is black?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

b-but the Simpsons has gotten less family-values as it's gone on! That's what people like Leee complain about!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"people like Leee" = y'know... whitey :)

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

You see, white people have names like "Lenny" whereas black people have names like "Carl".

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.synergizedsolutions.com/simpsons/pictures/others/toddflanders.gif

Lies make baby Jesus cry.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i am so bored of that quote! (no offence jim)

roger - is it unfair? The Simpsons has poked fun at so many stereotypes over the years but you'll notice that refs to Jews are pretty tame ("there were a few Jewish cowboys, ladies and gentlemen. Big guys who were great shots and spent money freely", Krusty's Rabbi father was pompous but dignified) but perhaps it is funny there has never been any real attempt at making light at the plight of black people in America. i guess it's considered just too dangerous (South Park has gone for it however and done it brilliantly).

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the plight of the stoner is handled pretty well. (Otto the bus driver)

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Matt, yes when they play basketball and he says "don't assume because I'm African American that I'm a great basketball player" or something and then proceeds to smash the backboard with an amazing dunk. He then dances and starts singing "Go Karl, it's your birthday"

I'm not really sure what to make of that.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it's pretty funny i think - purely for the denial/reversal aspect, it's actually a really simple mechanism that works well in any context (not just racial stereotypes)

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

stevem - the nasally, smarmy lawyer (who, coincidentally, hasn't appeared in the past few seasons) is obviously jewish. Not Lionel Hutz - teh guy with teh blue hair and glasses.

A well known indie hip hop superstar refuses to watch Lord of the Rings because he feels that the character of Smeagol / Gollum is a 'jew' and he finds the characterization offensive. I shit you not.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 6 February 2004 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha. Funny. He is of course stupid. Everyone knows Grima Wormtongue is the 'jewish' character.

― ^, Friday, 6 February 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Roger, the coincidence you talk of may be to do with the murder of the guy who did his voice.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

has there ever been a show about Cletus? everybody else has gotten their own show at least once by now

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

hans moleman hasn't, yet.

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

king of the hill has easily been funnier than the simpsons in the last five years (best tv of the late 90s/early 00s?), but has never ever come close to hitting its heights.

x-post: YET.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

unless you are forgetting "moleman in the morning"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

good moleman to you

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

how could i ever forget that? he's my favourite secondary character (frink has sold out)

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The Simpsons needs more Lenny. And more Carl. I love the way it first transpired his name was Carl Carlsson, and then LENNY LEONARD!

haha "good moleman to you"

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

if only this sugar was as sweet as you jim

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

actually it never occurred to me that the blue haird bespectacled whiny voiced laywer was Jewish, but i never really thought about it. his character is more 'evil lawyer' than 'evil Jewish lawyer' to me.

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean seriously Lenny barely needs to do anything to be funny in it.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

not Lenny!!?!

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

blah blah it's a total cliche but TRUE that king of the hill is at it's BEST when it soaks up all the HEART that the simpsons sloughed off to get more family guy-esque and at its worst when it's at its most "wacky"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

that's a travesty!!!!

xpost: i can't stand king of the Hill AT ALL. i think it's something like "too close to the bone" or something. the same reasons my dad couldn't stand "The Church Lady" - "I've just known too many people like that" i think there's something Cohen Bros-esque about KotH, like these characters are to be be observed and laughed at, and with, and about, from a slight distance - southern nutz w/hearts ov gold - TOTALLY unlike Beavis and Butthead, who you could tell were really loved thru all their pores yet were never accused of having hearts of gold. also the animation in KotH sux dog nex

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i meant moleman's lack of own show was a travesty bah!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, he's been electrocuted and had his brains drilled!!

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the simple reason King Of The Hill has been better in recent years is that it's unconditionally grounded in reality unlike all the other animated shows - everything that happens in it is completely plausible but no less amusing for it.

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

see, i dont see that AT ALL, tracer. (a case could maybe be made as the show passed middle age and the characters became slightly broader stereotypes or finally had their own well-defined schtick. then again, that's maybe that killed the simpsons too...)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Hans Moleman "I need the biggest seed bell you've got....no, that's too big"

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

"oh it's that delightful cartoon leprechaun...hold still...I'M going to get your lucky charms."

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

OH NO, MY BRAINS

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

football in groin! football! in! the groin!

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

KotH just isn't funny, compared with B&B. 'Gentle,' 'warm,' 'minutely observed' are all synonyms for bawrin'.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Am I the only one who still finds new Simpsons amusing?

"there is no escape from the cavern of the moles"

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

if KotH were a live action sitcom it wd probably be about the same, but w/the Simpsons wouldn't be possible - this is points for Simpsons i think

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

well it's points for the continued use of animation, surely

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Simpsons is up and down these days - David Mirkin's return to the scene may have something to do with this - I blame Mike Scully entirely for fucking up the Simpsons tho this is probably most unfair

Enrique maybe you should actually watch KOTH (i used to think the same as you, then i actually WATCHED it a few times and i mean WATCHED)

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, i like that i am subconsciously inserting Simpsons refs into my defense of KOTH ("but Sir if you like to watch your television and I mean WATCH...")

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

feh

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

snuh

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

haha the carnivale

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

with hard outer casing to prevent fallapart!

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Juh?

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry, *durable*)

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Listen to the question, listen to the words

Next time KotH is on, I might give it a whirl. Maybe it's improved: South Park got better in its (what?) third series.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i must say though i think humour is not as big a part of KOTH's mandate as it is in The Simpsons or South Park. i've seen KOTH episodes (such as when Peggy is recovering from the parachute mishap) that are admittedly very thin on visual gags and I wasn't saying I think KOTH is funnier than The Simpsons overall (it's not, NOTHING is or can be imo) but it is a better programme these days.

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique is wrong about the British attitude to Apu [...in my experience...] Maybe the first time you see him you think "Jesus, you could never get away with that over here!" but by the end of the show you can see Apu (as a person) doesn't fit into any British racist stereotype despite the fact that he is an economic type (immigrant shopkeeper with young family etc etc).

― run it off (run it off), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the idea that apu isnt (or wasnt) viewed as an offensive stereotype in some corners in america is pretty wrongheaded

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

WOAH INDIAN RUNS DAIRY AND HAS INDIAN ACCENT etc

― Silly Sailor (Andrew Thames), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't have any cable etc so only see haphazardly anything: I have no sense of progression in the Simpsons.

I'm not 'wrong,' run it off, I'm just talking about what I've heard said. This really is a matter of experience etc. Sure, my friends are oversensitive liberals, but hey, I didn't pick 'em.

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu was so much funnier when he didnt have eight kids and an arranged wife

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

And of course the entire show is offensive to kids with spiky heads.

― Matt (Matt), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

And the yellow peoples

― omg, Friday, 6 February 2004 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

and people with four digits on each hand

― the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

2-dimensional people

― omg, Friday, 6 February 2004 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Cletus the Slack-jawed Yokel is funny though! He's had some moments of definite hillbilly genius/resourcefulness, 200 free pretzel coupons fr'instance.

He's a far less insulting Southern stereotype than the Beverly Hillbillies.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 6 February 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, the Cletus-hate must stop - for one thing, I think his very existence is a comment about how you can be as offensive you want in characterizing southerners - there's lots of that kinda stuff through the series. And his theme song was bumpin': "Some folk'll never eat a skunk/but then again, some folk'll/like Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel" - come now, let us reason together, Cletus-haters.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 6 February 2004 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean come ON: http://animatedtv.about.com/library/media/audio/cletus/cletus_hey_kids.wav

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 6 February 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i think we have touched on an interesting thing though - in that Cletus could only ever have been white

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Smug liberal smartassery. Yuck.
-- fries with that (1001011...), February 6th, 2004

You would hate me

― David Allen (David Allen), Friday, 6 February 2004 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i think we have touched on an interesting thing though - in that Cletus could only ever have been white

Faulkner's entire career to thread except for maybe the failed stint with the Canadian air force

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 6 February 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't part of the idea, though, that The Simpsons embraces these stereotypes (Cletus, Apu, etc.) as stereotypes? Isn't that what makes it funny, is how over-the-top cliche they are? This was actually made explicit in the episode where Homer joins a bowling league, and one team is actually called The Stereotypes (made up of Cletus, Groundskeeper Willie, Luigi the Italian Chef, and Captain McAllister).

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"they BEGGED me to join them!"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah the stereotypes are nearly always done cheekily but playfully. What about the Japanese tho? "Hello chief let's talk why not?" hahaha - eat your heart out Sofia Coppola!

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"Chinese fire drill! Serious this time!"

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, though, I've always cringed at the Asian family on King of the Hill (not that I've seen it any more than a handful of times).

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the neighbors on king of the hill were def comedy fodder stereotype (though as much to poke fun at the hills) at first but then got a lot, uh, deeper as the series went on.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Hank's a homophobic

― Aja (aja), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

the word is homophobe.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry. I shouldn't have used the word "a" in that statement. But you must understand how old I am and how common it is to make mistakes like that.

― Aja (aja), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

A well known indie hip hop superstar refuses to watch Lord of the Rings because he feels that the character of Smeagol / Gollum is a 'jew' and he finds
the characterization offensive. I shit you not.

Walking down the street might be a pain for this guy.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, Ned, it is quite a Nazi film... the whole thing creeps med out. Nordic mythology fetish...

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Kinda breaking the fourth wall there, aren't we, Aja?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

We could get into an aeons-long discussion over that point -- let it be noted that Tolkien thought Hitler a dangerous madman from the start and took great pleasure in telling a Nazi-controlled publishing house to pack sand when it inquired about translating The Hobbit, specifically because said house asked if he had any Jewish blood in him. Tolkien's response in part was to say that it was a great pity he didn't have any of those 'noble people' in his background.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, I'll keep my ill-informed crap outta this!!

― Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Kinda breaking the fourth wall there, aren't we, Aja?

I'm sorry to sound like my old self but

What do you mean?

― Aja (aja), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

okay, i just found andrew's last post shit-losingly hilarious. time to log off for a while, i think.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

er, i didn't get it

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(I mean, trust me Enrique, there are plenty of philosophical and other points I can and do disagree with Tolkien over and I think there's plenty to be considered with a careful eye in implicit terms of race and otherwise in LOTR, but conflating him with the Nazis, no way.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I got it and it's freakin' hilarious!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

You know, I always assumed Friends was crap but I saw an episode the other day and started to think it might be better than the current versions of either The Simpsons or The Family Guy (or 80% of Clone High episodes). What a well-written show!

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

There are people who make the argument that King Of The Hill, South Park, & The Simpsons are the only explicitly Christian sitcoms on television.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

scott does have a point.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

though none of them give it a free ride.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

That could be the reason why it works so well (as celebration and satire).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu gets a raw deal -- most English viewers see his character as a throwback to racial stereotyping common on UK TV in the 1970s.

this is *wrong* Enrique, so don't try squirming out of it. It's wrong in saying 'most' and its wrong because Apu is not a throwback to racial stereotyping in the 1970s. If its wrong on both those counts, in what way can you say I'm not 'wrong,' run it off, I'm just talking about what I've heard said ??

― run it off (run it off), Friday, 6 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

(or 80% of Clone High episodes)

I'm hoping the musical episode of Clone High is in that other twenty percent...

― Prude (Prude), Friday, 6 February 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Is any reference ever made at all to the fact that Carl is black?
"Pick me! I'm an urban Lenny!"

Tuomas totally OTM re Cletus

― sym (shmuel), Friday, 6 February 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

ugh...never have i seen such over-the-top mentalism in a thread sucking the life right outta its subject...I AM APALLED!

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Friday, 6 February 2004 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

don't have a cow man

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Apu is just like the other schleps in that he's in this ubiquitous service job but is actually smarter, having emigrated from Calcutta to be a computer programmer and fucking that up, just like Homer fucks up. There are a lot of people like that on the Simpsons.

Honestly, though, not a single one of my Asian friends or any of their folks have ever hated on Apu. They say the Simpsons gives them plenty of references that let them know it's on their level, plus catch-up given two beats later for non-Asian viewers happens also to be funny. Also reading the credits it seemed the production teams are pretty multicultural.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"people like Leee" = y'know... whitey :)

haha Andrew I kiss you with guns!

― Leee Majors (Leee), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Apu is just like the other schleps in that he's in this ubiquitous service job but is actually smarter, having emigrated from Calcutta to be a
computer programmer and fucking that up, just like Homer fucks up. There are a lot of people like that on the Simpsons.

A slight bit of a backfilled justification, though -- it's not like the character was from the start a computer programmer etc., was he? (That said, I love me that Apu, great character.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu's the most likable character on the whole show. Don't hate on him, people.
xpost

― sym (shmuel), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Apu graduating from Caltech = classic (his diploma is handed to him by a SNAKE IN A POT)

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't offhand recall The Simpsons poking fun at Mexicans though - too close to the bone?

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Bumblebee Man?

― sym (shmuel), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

and let's not forget that Bumblebee man speaks english with perfect diction!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

ahhhhh of course - see how they mock the Mexicans with their mentalist TV characters. i do love the bit where he's in a sitcom, comes home in his costume and accidentally smashes his house up, his wife then entering, screaming 'aieeeee' and handing him 'el divorcio'

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

get eurass back to eurasia

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Senor Spielbergo comes to mind.

― hstencil, Friday, 6 February 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The show even cracks on ducks!

― Leee Majors (Leee), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Stewart, get back to work!

― Senor Burns (Leee), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

get back to work Stewart!

(x-post)

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Its like when some Australians got the shits at the ridiculously over the top Aussie cliches in that episode - the kangaroos, the absurdly bad "Bruce" accents etc - however Groening himself said they went as far overboard as possible on purpose, as they often do with the stereotyping I'd imagine. Anyone who can't laugh at something that patently silly and clever has no funnybone!

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The boot part was perfectly accurate, though.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd a called them CHAZwuzzers!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

That's it, I'm changing my name to Knifey Spoony.

― Leee Majors (Leee), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Or no! Better yet!

― Clown College (Leee), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Phoney McRingring is better.

xpost

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I think the winner is Joey JoJo Shabaloo

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony? Who is Anthony My name is

― Guyyyyyyyyyyyy IncogNIto! (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Homer:Helloooo, my name is mr Burns, I believe you have a package for me!
Postaldude:OK mr Burns what's your first name?
Homer:IIII.... don't know!

(saying IIIII don't know! like that has become a very embedded meme of mine)

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Groening claimed they didn't have a clue what Australia was actually like so just came up with their own ideas, which I don't believe for one minute frankly

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

and i am definitely changing my name to Mother Shabooboo

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 6 February 2004 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Just to stick up for Enrique, I kind of feel the same way and when I've said to my friends 'it's funny, that wouldn't have got onto modern British TV' they've agreed. That said, I don't think I *do* have a problem with his characterisation, esp. as you get to know him. It's just that there's that first hurdle of 'sing song funny indian voice' that immediately rings so many bad 70s Mind Your Language type bells.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 February 2004 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Now Babu in Seinfeld, that's maybe a step too far.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 February 2004 00:23 (twenty-two years ago)

fair point N (and Enrique) but then it's worth noting how Goodness Gracious Me and the Kumars characters have sometimes relied on accents and the cadence of certain words to get laughs - so the poking of fun at Indian stuff has returned albeit this time by actual Indian people. For a while I was quoting the bloke from East Is East now and then when he said 'he make a bloody show a' me' just because the way it came out - this hybrid Yorkshire/Indian accent - was too funny.

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 7 February 2004 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I know - and loads of Indians love Peter Sellers doing the original 'Goodness Gracious Me' too. Indians culture likes arsing around with funny phrases and voices quite a lot. I guess I'm just saying that, rightly or wrongly, UK TV execs would have been more apprehensive about casting an Apu-like character in a grocery store in an otherwise non-Asian UK 90s sitcom (or cartoon).

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 7 February 2004 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

'good bloke syndrome'

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Saturday, 7 February 2004 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

six months pass...

I was disturbed by the recent episode I saw last night in which the school is snowed in and the kids all have to sleep there. Really it was just about making Skinner look as undignified and humiliated as possible without any real meaning. At the end with everything back to normal as usual Skinner tells Bart he won't remember any of it and thus the children go unpunished and Skinner remains the bumbling misfortunate clown figure, a figure i despise if there's no attempt to show them having the last laugh. In the past the character usually managed to retain/rebuild SOME dignity/pride but now he's just a wretched stooge as are pretty much all of them. Also notable were two relatively risque and frankly lazy and inane (albeit amusing in a simplistic juvenile fashion) lines that I don't think the show would've got away with/tolerated in the past - "That's the last time you'll slap your Willy around in public!" and "Well done Nibble, now chew through my ball sack". I hate coming in to find my housemates watching new ones even more than I used to hate my family watching Eastenders (after I'd got fed up with it for good).

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Those gags do sound bad.

Maybe you are right.

We must resist unnecessary obscenity.

― the bellefox, Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

well it used to be smarter than that blah moan gibber

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Sheesh!

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

TV isn't real. Especially cartoons.

― na (Nick A.), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't that an old one? I remember it being hilarious if it's the one I'm thinking of. Do Homer and Ned (?) end up getting trapped in a car inhaling gas fumes and hallucinating?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Bring on da Ranch Dressing Hoez!!

― Mr. Tony Plow (Leee), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

It may not be real Nick but it still sucks monstrous balls. If your favourite band starts making music you hate but are still hugely popular and critically acclaimed you would complain about it no?

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons is in danger of becoming the Rolling Stones of cartoon shows. Right now they're in their Black and Blue phase, let's just hope they finish before their ratio of bad episodes to great ones is 2 to 1.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Stereotypes can be funny.

― shookout (shookout), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

But don't you see, the "Bring the Ranch Dresshing Hose" is a subtle subversion of expectations on top of the double- and even triple-entendre of the accompanying images. Homer being fed by his harem (hos?) through a hose (signifying the engorged male member) from which streams a white substance/sustenance. Homererotic, indeed! This inversion of sexual expectations is echoed in the eventual transmutation of Bart into a Homersexually attractive camel. Notably, this morphic malleability is caused solely by a distorted/damaged/corrupted automobile and the hallucinogenic fumes emanating from it -- a scathing juxtaposition of the American auto industry and terrorist-supporting drugs (harem = middle east!).

― Mr. Tony Plow (Leee), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Simpsons now = Mick jagger solo as far as I'm concerned, I find myself laughing out loud more at Will & Grace (they might as well have the same writing team). it's actually offensive (but not as it intends)! I 'll be saying this again next year tho I guess...

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

What is the point of suggesting Homer and Bart are gay in the way that they do? It's pathetic. I forgot about the transforming into animals thing, I didn't understand it all which would be fine except it just felt so desperate and bereft of any intentions at all other than 'oh this will fuck with their heads a bit hyuck hyuck'

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons slowly started falling to bits when it had actual competition. I'm pretty sure the Simpsons' decline occured between the debut of King of the Hill and the debut of Family Guy. It's just not recovered from the animation boom and bust of the late 90s.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Hans Moleman "I need the biggest seed bell you've got....no, that's too big"

WHY IS THIS SO FUNNY? I'd completely forgotten about it and it made me laugh like a goon.

― Fergal (Ferg), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

i hate "gil"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I've been watching season 4. It's funny. Sometimes beautiful. However in the commentary they keep saying things like 'yeah we did that in 1993, now Family Guy does it all the time...'

― Ally C (Ally C), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I love Gil.

― Ally C (Ally C), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It is radical gender politics!

― Mr. Tony Plow (Leee), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Gil: Funny lines but is also devoid of any dignity or genuine pride ala Skinner now ergo I hate the use of him. Are we supposed to sympathise with him or just point and laugh at the poor guy like everyone else? It's different to say Flanders (although he's going the same way) because Ned has his family and other evident sources of pride.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 22:00 (twenty-one years ago)

none of this would matter of course if the whole show hadn't fallen into a "morass of unfunny" + cartoon celeb cameos.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

gil is just the same unfunny joke over and over

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't even watch the show anymore, and that's a terrible thing.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 12 August 2004 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

my prob, w/ stevem's arguments, is that I don't actually believe in an age of enlightenment, w/ noble messages and deep meaning, much beyond funny, or, even, w/ superhigh levels of intention. (I have come to "learn" or "realise" or "believe" that nothing is ever that intentional.)

unless a flip-flopping component, of stevem's argument, is that today's episodes are too "intentional" and have too much "meaning" fitted. I could agree, if I had seen any of today's episodes.

I like the simpsons, a lot.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 12 August 2004 02:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched maybe 3 or 4 episodes this past season. They're in season 14 now or something? I'll stop getting the box sets by season 9.

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 12 August 2004 02:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, come on! Hearing "now chew through my ball sack" from a cartoon teacher's mouth just is funny! You're not supposed to take it so seriously.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:07 (twenty-one years ago)

but it's total dumb, un-Simpsonlike humor.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

are any of the original writers still around? (say from anything pre-season 6)

― ryan (ryan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I know this was way up the thread, but am I the only one annoyed that Roger Adulty did backflips to justify the Apu-stereotyping, but just will not stand for Cletus? Isn't "nothing' cracks a turtle like Leon Uris" just as much "subverting the sterotypes" as Apu listening to Western pop music? As much as Apu is a pretty sympathetic, fully drawn character, he is based in stereotype. And if you're going to accept that with Indians, Italians, et al..., drawing the line with rednecks and the fucking NRA seems pretty obnoxious and libertarian.

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

And since when are cartoon characters supposed to have dignity?

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

The show makes fun of everybody and stereotypes everybody. Homer is a stereotype.

It's an interesting litmus test of sorts to find out what offends whom.

Sometimes the mark of a good comedy/comedian is if most everybody is offended or made slightly uncomfortable.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought making people laugh was the mark of a good comedian. Mea culpa.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:42 (twenty-one years ago)

flip-flops, all round.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Hooray!

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

will you ever not be a dickhead?

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

"mea culpa" replaces "my bad" in the popular lexicon TODAY.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not polite to talk to oneself.
xpost

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

wow

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Laughter is often connected to embarrassment/unease.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

not for oops.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

That's nervous laughter. Laughter is also connected to tickling, but I have yet to see ticklers perform at any comedy clubs. If I ran the world though...

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

somebody's cwanky

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Sometimes the mark of a good comedy/comedian is if most everybody is offended or made slightly uncomfortable.

I disagree. Comedy can come out of uneasiness, but but not out of your own. Ben Braddock is a hilarious character because he's so damn nervous, not because he makes *you* nervous. Nervous is just... nervous. Uneasy is uneasy, and any laughter that comes from that is defensive.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:52 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

Much of the laughter at comedy clubs is nervous laughter.

Andy Kaufman was the king of nervous laughter.

Somebody's cwanky and I'm sweepy. night night.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:53 (twenty-one years ago)

x post

And offended is a whole different ballgame.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Andy Kaufman was the king of nervous laughter.

was he? when he was wrestling women, did anybody laugh except in retrospect?

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

most comedians at comedy clubs aren't funny though, and that's why people laugh nervously.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think people complaining about the Simpsons jumping the shark have totally jumped the shark.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, before I go to bed --

I would submit that a comedian who never offends anyone is not a funny comedian. (But I have to sleep on this -- maybe I'll think of someone funny who is really nice to everybody.)

Yes, omigod, the wrestling women thing was hilarious. I laughed so nervously I peed my adolescent pants.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 03:59 (twenty-one years ago)

See, I just thought it was offensive, until I understood that it was a joke, and then I cried "Genius!" Which was his intention. I don't know that that's the same thing as flat-out funny, gut-funny.

maybe I'll think of someone funny who is really nice to everybody

Thelast few weeks of curmudgeonliness notwithstanding, I have to say Bill Cosby. One of the funniest ever.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm trying to imagine who would find Harpo offensive. Mutes?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I used to find Bill Cosby funny but now I just think he's boring.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:04 (twenty-one years ago)

The Marx Brother in general are a good example, even though they offended people in their day. That seems silly now, as I'm sure many currently silly things will seems silly to us in the future. Difference is, the comedy wasn't *based* in the fact that it was offensive (unlike, say, Andy Kauffman), and it still kills. In 60 years, Kauffman's comedy will be an oddity and an artifact, not comedy at all.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

many currently silly things = many currently offensive things

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Hm... Maria is on to something, though. I just thought of this Ebert review of Duck Soup and looked it up:

My father loved the Marx Brothers above all other comedians or, indeed, all other movie stars. The first movie he ever took me to was "A Day at the Races." All I remember about that experience was the fact of my father's laughter. But there was something else, too, that I understood only much later: The sound of his voice as he described the brothers. He used the tone that people employ when they are talking about how someone got away with something.

― Harold Media (kenan), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Well Chico was an Eye-talian stereotype, more or less. And Groucho threw insults around pretty regularly. But Harpo? Sweet, innocent Harpo???

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Sometimes the mark of a good comedy/comedian is if most everybody is offended or made slightly uncomfortable.

Ugh, this line of thought is dud dud dud and on par with thinking a slanderous piece of writing is automatically worthy becuase it inspires debate. Though, I guess, your "sometimes" tempers the sentiment a little. Yes, comedy almost always comes from discomfort or pain, but there's a big difference between discomfort and taking offense. I mean, TS: Woody Allen vs. Vice.

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

woody allen is rarely offensive (or funny, these days), but when good he was not offensive. actually plenty of good comedians do not offend, but the list of fourth-raters who believe that being offensive is at the heart of good comedy is telling:

jimmy carr
the staff of vice (high five, colin)
jim davidson

all of whom belong together, despite no doubt different stated aims.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't say offensive, I said "uncomfortable". I think "offensive" comedy is generally far more succesful if the authors themselves are offended or at least interested in exporing an offensive idea as opposed instead of lame "anti-PC" nonsense. Something like Carl Reiner's Where's Poppa is a perfect example of the former.

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:29 (twenty-one years ago)

oh okay, woody allen hasn't made me feel uncomfortable.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:30 (twenty-one years ago)

My favourite comedians are the ones who wittily self-deprecate...but they're standing up on stage, making people laugh...therefore attaining dignity/commanding respect while at the same time taking the piss out of themselves as much it not more than anyone else - I like that juxtaposition.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i've never really got into stand-up etc, which is odd since i like a lot of comedians who earn their um 'chops' there before going on to tv/film, eg dylan moran. what i've seen of ricky gervase's stuff i didn't much like. like anything i suppose it's a matter of fashion: for example the 'angus deayton style' of ironical presentation of gameshows has really dated, though once upon a time it was quite good. i think i like less wordy comedy now.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree there's a sliding scale of how to make people laugh, with this 'going out to offend someone via cheap obvious mockery' being the lowest point. The highest point would be things The Simpsons has explored and demonstrated in the past - see the 'What makes you laugh?' (or was it called 'What do you find funny?') thread for examples imo

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

thinking about it i can't generalize, i mean it's a bit like asking 'what do you find attractive', cz despite my wordy-comedy-no-likey line i laughed hard at a v involved jk on 'yes minister' the other night which involved puns on john maynard keynes and milton friedman (=milton keynes DYS).

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Railing aginst dumb humor in "The Simpsons" requires a drastic rewrite of the show's history. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE and there's always been more of it than superfans are willing to admit (aside from the first season where they were just trotting sitcom trope after sitcom trope to establish the characters).

The show doesn't work when the basic premise isn't funny. Possibly the best episodes I can remember are the one where Homer goes to clown college and the "Cape Fear" parody.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

As I said, in the past, the writers always seemed to take care to ensure characters like Skinner ultimately came out okay in whatever situation they found themselves in. I liked the fact that he was a ridiculous mummy's boy but still able to command authority from Burns, Fat Tony AND the pupils - only fearing his mother. That's all gone now. I agree about the possible best episodes tho - and the gulf between them and the show today is so apparent to me I get annoyed when others can't see (I understand if they do see and on't care, that is of arguably the sensible approach...).

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok he fears Charmers too.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

The other thing is it used to balance superbly the idea it was about real life and the idea it was pure fantasy. The former seemed to be abandoned around five years ago and now every episode seems to be built around the belief that anything can happen because it's TV, animation and generally trying to deal with it's own success and longlife' i.e. meta overload (I counted around half a dozen references to previous episodes in the aforementioned 'offending' episode including 'Mr Plow' - I don't like the way they seem to rely on this technique for laughs so much now (but then maybe ILX does too ;)

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons used to be about the Simpsons, but now it's just about The Simpsons

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

stevem's criticisms are totally otm

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons went shit after Maude Flanders died

― Ste (Fuzzy), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

everyone has their own JTS moment and I think mine remains Frank Grimes

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons used to be about the Simpsons, but now it's just about The Simpsons
-- the neurotic awakening of s (stevem7...), August 12th, 2004.

OTM.

Though it's still kind of amazing that it was great for as long as it was.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Harold Media, have you ever watched The Cosby Show? Bill Cosby's humor is NOT NICE. Most of his jokes are about being pissed off at his kids. There is some vicious shit on there (though of course there's a subtext of love underneath it all that keeps it from being dispicable). Seriously, if any real father said the stuff that Cosby says to his kids in that show, they would grow up emotionally fucked (and this osmosis of sitcom language into the real world is going to result in some serious psychological confusion over the next couple of generations, believe you me).

― na (Nick A.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Ugh, this line of thought is dud dud dud and on par with thinking a slanderous piece of writing is automatically worthy becuase it inspires debate.

That's quite a leap.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

OTM

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Seriously, if any real father said the stuff that Cosby says to his kids in that show, they would grow up emotionally fucked

My dad said a lot of that stuf and I... um...

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

The Simpsons serves to a degree as the court jester of our society. A hearty portion of it is social critique. Offending some people comes with that territory.

John Stewart is another court jester. He is an equal-opportunity offender.

There are different types of comedy, obv. I didn't say comedy *has* to be offensive or make you uncomfortable to be funny. Sight gags aren't usually offensive, although a bit of embarrassment (at someone else's expense) is often involved (ha! ha! he fell down!). The self-deprecating humor also has a bit of embarrassment (that person is laughing at themselves, making it alright for the audience to laugh at them, too).

Calling someone's argument "dud dud dud" is dud dud dud.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

problem is 'equal opportunities offender' usually means 'offends blacks, gays, *and* women'.

― ENRG, Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

and black gay women.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean offends right and left.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Growing up emotionally fucked isn't so bad; it's proabbly healthy to visceraly know the world don't love your ass. That said, I can't stand the way the Simpsons talk; it's the way adults talk to babies they don't know.

― sexyDancer, Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:19 (twenty-one years ago)

My dad said a lot of that stuf and I... um...

Oh don't worry, the scarring didn't run too deep. BTW, how come it took so long for the asylum to get wired?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Some of my favorite bits of late have been faux interviews on the Daily Show and Ali G where the interviewee is a person who takes themselves waaay too seriously and the interviewer doesn't mind coming off stupid. Here, again, is an element of embarrassment or unease.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

But then again, Wanda Sikes and Ellen Degeneres don't make me uncomfortable, yet I think they're funny.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Thursday, 12 August 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Railing aginst dumb humor in "The Simpsons" requires a drastic rewrite of the show's history. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE and there's always been more of it than superfans are willing to admit.

Sure, yeah, but the other thing that was there was smart humor, and gradually over time the ratio of dumb to smart humor has shifted towards dumb. So you don't have to deny that the show ever contained dumb humor in order to complain about the ever increasing prevalance of it.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

and obv I find some dumb humor funny and some I don't. Lately, the Simpsons dumb humor has fallen into the latter category.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 12 August 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I think you're skipping over the "there's always been more of it than superfans are willing to admit" part of that quote.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 13 August 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

three years pass...

Today's simpsons had guest stars such as the author of Maus, Alan Moore, Daniel Clowes and a pet shop boys song played halfway through the episode. Even though the end of the episode sucked, the first half was good and seemed to represent many ILXORS interests (graphic novels and pet shop boys). So the ILX simpson hater is a hypocrite! (or something) BE DAMNED!

― CaptainLorax, Monday, 19 November 2007 01:46 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, I like Gil because I can relate to him, and because he talks like I imagine Holden Caulfield would (the cadence etc, not the dialogue).

― Abbott, Monday, 19 November 2007 04:18 (eighteen years ago)

I found this:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7039/1195445797058ub7.jpg

― CaptainLorax, Monday, 19 November 2007 04:39 (eighteen years ago)

this season has been really good

― chaki, Monday, 19 November 2007 05:56 (eighteen years ago)

I agree; it has.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Monday, 19 November 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

so the Android's Dungeon is shuttered for good?

"My name is Strawberry; my bag is a lunchbox"

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 19 November 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

lol Watchmen Babies

― latebloomer, Monday, 19 November 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

that is some 'all is forgiven' type bizness

― blueski, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

Ray Winstone as muscled Beowulf vs. Jack Black as skinny hipster

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

What the hell is Watchmen Babies.

― burt_stanton, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.lavieri.it/comics/image%20comics/copertine/Watchmen20AD_giant.jpg

one of the best graphic novels of all time: watchmen. by alan moore. who also did v for vendetta.

http://is2.okcupid.com/users/122/930/12393041114106859523/mt1125928373.jpg

muppet babies. when you take franchises and make them babies.

MIX THEM TOGETHER AND WAT DU U GET

― Will M., Monday, 19 November 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

telekinetic kermit

― DG, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.sillyape.org/trash/nerds.jpg

― burt_stanton, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

That Lavieri Watchmen cover makes me ill. Is that Alex Ross?

― Rock Hardy, Monday, 19 November 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

Alex Ross does not draw his female characters as pumpkinheads.

I watched about 1/2 of the ep last night, and the "RUPERT MURDOCH's WALL STREET JOURNAL" gag made me laugh for a good while.

― kingfish, Monday, 19 November 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

ten years pass...

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5kwj7/i-watched-the-simpsons-for-the-first-time-ever-and-i-couldnt-stand-it

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 2 July 2018 19:53 (seven years ago)

no thanks

― flamenco blorf (BradNelson), Monday, 2 July 2018 20:01 (seven years ago)

precision engineered troll article

― circa1916, Monday, 2 July 2018 20:05 (seven years ago)

Wow this Vice article is pretty controversial!!!!!! pic.twitter.com/feJzJu1ERC
— popular comedy account “the pixelated boat” (@pixelatedboat) July 2, 2018

― Eliza D., Monday, 2 July 2018 20:06 (seven years ago)

Nothing will ever be as bad as Rory McGrath explaining to Marcus Brigstock why he didn't like Fawlty Towers.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 2 July 2018 20:14 (seven years ago)

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