Being woken up by bomb blasts - Dud or Dud?

I want to see 'Barcelona' again.

All those kids waving basque flags and scarves and singing Spanish sons of whores at the Bilbao match on Sunday, are they applauding this action? I hope not.

Extra dud thing: when I first heard it on the radio as I was getting up, it didn't even register; such is the level of my bad news fatigue or something.

Hope you and those you know are definitely ok alan.

The above assumes they are capable of rational thought, which obviously there is a lot of contrary evidence for.

I've just written an email to a Spanish colleague who's entire family live in Madrid. They're all fine but he says he's preparing in case he has to go to a funeral this weekend. Horrible.

I strongly disagree, rush hour on a main station? Plus the shear amount of scrutiny that terrorism is under at the moment, I fail to see how anybody could have thought this was only going to be a minor attack.

'Could the world’s most feared, faceless and fabulously inventive Islamist terrorist group really be wreaking revenge for Spain's controversial participation in the US-led, UK-backed militaristic coalition against terror?'

'Fabulously inventive' indeed! Like setting bombs took real talent.

???In what world do you live???

Simple is easy, but it's a horrible guide to life.

Occam's Razor is a decent guide to probabilities mind. Can you suggest a practical alternative to ETA and/or Al Qaeda here. Whoever committed it needs to be
a) Organised
b) have a reason
c) be able to get a large amount of explosives
d) and in Spain.

Okay, don't. Like I say, I dig a decent conspiracy theory, but unless its the return of Franco, I'm out of other decent options.

But hey, in the hands of politicians even a razor can become a blunt instrument.

b) is a moot point, I guess whoever did it will have a reason justifying it to themselves at least. So its a bit pointless.

Begs, if you look back on the 9/11 threads I think I was pushing a very similar line to you there - mainly because the fear of the US knee jerk reaction and then bombing the hell out of some innocent country. In retrospect it was the slow calculate jerk reaction we should have worried about. So I do understand where you are coming from, and I am not agruing for any of these being right. Just these are the obvious lines of enquiry.

x-posts

When I said the simplest answer is usually true I did not think I was implying that I thought that said simple answer should not be proved beyond reasonable doubt before acted upon. Apart from that I find it hard to believe that anyone but a conspiracy theorist would disagree with it.

Fuck whoever did it eh?

You are Colonel X, and I claim my 5 pounds.

Is there any evidence of this in a major Western state - ie, internal security forces perpetrating acts of extreme violence upon their own population to increase the position ofd the organisation vis-a-vis other state operatives (ie, terrorism as fundraisers?) It's a compelling theory, but has it actually happened?

x postr - Spanish Private Eyes - Pepe Carvalho

I don't know about in a "major Western state" but certainly this has happened in other countries, such as the involvement of elements of Indonesia's armed forces in terrorism in East Timor.

Surely all major transport hubs are full of CCTV cameras? What about German trains? Is Madrid a soft target?

Some organization did this. Lots of people are dead. We can type at each other all the fuck we want, it won't change anything.

Apology accepted and never required. Your final point would mean the end of ILx as we know it though (a long term plan of mine as all good buhrgers know).

And hey, I'd rather be dealing with feeling a bit helpless than dealing with a loved one being killed this morning.

No sense in speculating on who or why this happened yet. The news is reporting an arabic video tape found in a 'suspect van' outside Madrid; it means nothing yet.

And the leader of the banned Basque political party Batasuna, Arnaldo Otegi, blamed "Arab resistance".

"Eta has always issued a warning whenever it left a bomb to explode," he said, adding: "Spain maintains occupation forces in Iraq and we should not forget that it had a responsibility for the war in Iraq."

Mostly what I'm intrigued by is the first bit -- is it in fact always true that ETA issues a warning first?

And how much worse would this have been had Spanish police not arrested those ETA members with over 1000 pounds of explosives two weeks ago?

I'm concerned that a (politically, at least - I've never met a pro-war Spaniard) hawk nation is suffering a terrorist attack of any sort three days before a general election with an incumbent conservative leader. I sense a practice run from an interested party and wonder how the election will go there on Sunday.

arabic language newspaper in london - not confirmed by any govt sources anywhere

an audio tape signed in Arab, and including verses of the Koran

audio tape IN arabic, commercially available. rockist scientist probably owns a copy.

Sept 11 th
March 11 th

11th ! the link ! the bastards planned in

infact bin laden has actually named Spain and [the UK] as targets.

i keep reading this as: "an audio tape, signed: An Arab"

UN Council Condemns ETA in Blast on Spain's Word
Thu Mar 11, 2004 01:54 PM ET

By Evelyn Leopold
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. Security Council on Thursday condemned the Basque separatist group ETA as the perpetrators of the deadly bombings in Spain, although members had no way of determining the veracity of the charge.

Despite some hesitations over the resolution, members voted 15-0 to accept the word of the Spanish government, which immediately blamed the ETA for the simultaneous explosions that killed 190 people and injured more than 1,200 on packed trains in Madrid.

Qabalah, baby. Does it need to be said Islamic fundamentalists believe in that stuff? Baked Bean is OTM. It's all in the numbers. The letters in New York add up to 666. The ones in Madrid result in Lord, or The Way. Some people might think it baloney, but to me, it just reeks of creepy.

I was thinking the same thing, but hey, it's too much of a coincidence to go unnoticed!

And yea, thanks for clearing that up. It needn't be said that info hadn't been completely verified.

But I got the "turn back you poxy fule" message and was thwarted. I'm glad other people have noted these things too.

Around where my parents live (miles from Madrid) the town has been eerily quiet all day. It's hit the Spanish people hard.

Didn't stop some moronic Barcelona fans (not too fond of the non-Catalan Spaniards, but still...) cheering throughout the minute's silence at Parkhead tonight.

Them, not me. I have no problem with either.

Which is fine, except everyone always forgets about the poor Australians who died in Bali Oct 12. This isnt the first major attack after 9/11! *sigh*

(not that I am at all trying to diminish any of this awful tragedy)

october 12th 2002 was 1 year 1 month and 1 day after SEPT 11TH 2001
111

Al Qaeda do seem to plan their sickening terrorist acts around sequences/ dates/ numbers

Yo, Nick, are you familiar with numerology? Here's the link, loco:
http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Qabalah&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&u=www.thelemicgoldendawn.org/english.html&w=qabalah&d=73B3D68DAD&c=483&yc=15938&icp=1

(Okay, there could be some sort of intentional numerological symbolism for all I know. But the Book of Revelation? I don't think Al Qaeda or their ilk has any use for the Christian "666" thing.)

But.

Does the arabic world use the same date calandar as the west (sorry if thats a dumb question). The jewish calander is different, would theirs be? I'd hate to think we're applying western ideas to something and totally missing the point.

Bin Laden in one of his video rants definately named and warned Spain, also top future targets are America [another big hit] and UK [most likely London]

If i were in US/ UK strategic defence intelligence, I would hire an Operational Research/ Stats/ Maths professor - to identify possible high risk dates/ numbers/ sequences - in conjunction with any other other intelligence.

Man this weirds me out, I read the stupid nostrodamus newsgroup after sep11 and there was a guy there who'd ranted about all these numbers BEFORE it happened (anyone remeber that guy?) and it turned out correct. I cant recall the details anymore though I'd have to google.

I'll have one of each, plz.

FW, did you get around to trying LSD or something?
(-- Rockist Scientist (MuoMuothla...), March 12th, 2004.

Haha! No. The thought of it terrifies me! I'm already crazy enough as it is!

If i were in US/ UK strategic defence intelligence, I would hire an Operational Research/ Stats/ Maths professor - to identify possible high risk dates/ numbers/ sequences - in conjunction with any other other intelligence.
-- DJ Martian (altmartinu...)

YESSSS!

They use a different calendar (like AD, but for Mohammed instead). But I guess they are allowed to playing with THE GREAT SATAN's calendar if they want.
-- N. (nickdastoo...)

Right. I mean, who the fuck are we kidding here? We're just trying to make some logic outta this nonsense. They'll use whichever fucking calendar suits their needs best. Yea, like anybody's gonna ask Al Qaeda to follow the rules or any semblance of a strict systematic arrangement?

as far as "high-risk" dates go, they'd be better off hiring a historian. 9/11 wasn't numerologically significant, it was the anniversary of the british mandate in palestine.

and i don't want to come across all science-officer-spock on this, either. it's emotionally unhealthy, too.

Spain was definately mentioned.

AHAHAHA.

The DJ is right. Teh NBC is covering things up. You know, this smells of...*sniper shots go off*

Fascinating figure, Juan Carlos; he seems to be the last major European monarch as such who has played a crucial political role over recent decades, considering his role post-Franco. (I suppose the Bulgarian guy, Simeon or whatever, also counts.)

After the Madrid attack, Hungarian Nepszabadsag says, "Europe is faced with greater dilemmas than America after 11 September".

If the attack was the work of Basque separatists, the paper argues, "then it highlights the failure of most European states to find a working compromise with their national minorities".

"If, however, the bombers were Islamic extremists," it adds, " then current European reservations to America's response are untenable."

So unless there's going to be some clear path leading to the perpetrators, like there seemed to be in Bali, does this actually lead to anything other than a huge tightening of security across Europe (because lets face it, the Tube aint that safe when it comes to things like this)?

I'm not sure I agree with that. If it's their intention to cause as much damage as possible - which it is, I mean, they don't phone the local radio station with a ten minute warning - they wouldn't want anyone trying to prevent them. If they kept picking significant dates, they're more likely to get caught up in heightened security around those times. The element of surprise is key in Al Quaeda attacks.

I did quick search on ETA issuing warnings before they detonate a bomb: it seems to be true.

After all, what did 9/11 actually achieve for Al Qaeda?

(x-post)

Another link that made interesting reading, much the same stuff as the BBC's but worth a look.

Joan, the BBc have something about that and that it's a false alarm

Got out of Madrid no problem - we anticipated difficulty so went to the airport as soon as we could (difficult in itself - the hotel couldn't order a taxi as we were less than a mile from Atocha so we had to go out into the streets to try and find one). The airport was very, very relaxed - not even the basic security questions when checking in baggage (Did you pack this yourself, etc) - although there was a reasonably high police presence in it.

yes, what could it mean? at what point does "arabic civilization" overcome the rational mind? is al qaeda intoxicated by islam? how are we to understand the derangements of arabs? is it contagious? is it spreading? when they speak in arabic, do they make whole sentences or do they just string words together? if i understand "their" islam, will i catch it, too? how will i know if i've caught it? how will i know if i understand it? is that even possible? maybe the africans could help us understand. maybe the indonesians. they act crazy, too, on cnn or msnbc sometimes. less often on the bbc, though. what could that mean? does an arab think? how would i know if he did? could a turk help? i know some turks who speak wahhabi. but they're not wahhabis themselves, i don't think. maybe they've caught it too! if they understand al qaeda, and al qaeda can't be understood by me, could i understand them (the turks)?

can the brown mind truly be understood?

maybe you don't need to take it personally? Maybe it was your statement that was phrased in a way that could be mistaken for racism?

DAUGHTER MISSING:
My daughter is an exchange student in Seville who went to Madrid on Wednesday...NO ONE has heard from her since. American, 5'10 inches 145 pounds. Long brown (mid-back) hair, green eyes. Tattoo on lower back of star (approx 4" across) Carly is her name, she is traveling with another student, Laura. Please....any info is appreciated. I love you Carly and I am coming there tomorrow, XO Mom
Holly Taylor, Walnut Creek California USA

Re: earlier post. (link) DAUGHTER FOUND! She had taken wrong train and had to double back towards Prado....missed the bombings. I am so grateful to have her and so sorry for those who have lost the lights of their lives. With deep sadness, I mourn.
Holly Taylor, Walnut Creek, Calif USA

Or maybe it was Vahid going to great lengths in his sarcasm to link Al-Q and "brown people".

Why is it again that liberals swear by the "I can criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic" and yet when it comes to criticizing Muslim Extremists, that division b/n criticizing the policies/actions of some and racism vanishes into the night?

i suppose a case could be made, along the line of fanon's "wretched of the earth", that the reactions of al-qaeda are an expression of mental illness brought on by colonialism or by their own repressive culture. the thing is fanon (whose findings have since been somewhat discredited and toned down by psychoanalysts) also did a good job of pointing out how colonialism itself, or the reactions of the french to algerian terrorism, would have to be seen as an expression of a mental illness or a repression in that model.

finally, even if you were to buy into fanon's argument (or the similar arguments that get made on the right - "suicide bombing is just EVIL CRAZINESS") you would be making a real leap to try to argue that their culture, religion or beliefs completely obfuscate their reasoning (wrt the western mind). not least of which because not everybody thinks western enlightment = the seat of rationality.

when it comes to criticizing Muslim Extremists, that division b/n criticizing the policies/actions of some and racism vanishes into the night

it could be the nature/phrasing/logic of the criticism hmmm?

in any case does anybody have the right to criticize "their understanding of islam"?

should i criticize the settlers' embrace of orthodox judaism? CERTAINLY NOT. and i have no desire to! nor do i want to psychoanalyze settlers, or the theology of orthodox judaism, or try to explain their culture in any terms relating to illness or unhealthiness.

on the other hand, i think anybody would be perfectly justified in pointing out that the settlements - the physical buildings and fences and roads - are carving up palestinian territory. criticize that. criticize bombings. what's specious = pop psychoanalysis.

(and it's not just on this thread - it runs through the whole discussion of terrorism since the term was coined, and back a lot longer if you want to look at the tension between homicide and homicidal mania)

that's where the strawman comes from. that and "does al qaeda really have a political vision" and the bit about "their interpretation of islam trumping political calculation" (misquoted but not miscontextualized, sorry)

I didn't see anyone claiming this bombing was because Al-Q had gone postal. I think their "political vision" is simply islamic extremism. And seeing as how their interpretation of Islam is all about repression and intolerance, it allows them to justify killing anyone they wish. This "it's because we went into Iraq in 1991/2003" or "because of Israel" or "because of sanctions" is where people go wrong. Al-Q and the like, leech onto these causes in order to kill as many Americans/Jews/Hindus/Russians/British/Spainards as possible.

so where does the desire to kill non al qaeda come from in the first place?

This is badly put. It sounds as if Al Qaeda are primarily murderers who attach a politics to what they desire in order to justify it. One of the problems with this way of describing Al Qaeda is that it fails to see Islamic terrorism as coming out of a broader and fully humane set of complaints against the west, modernity, capitalism, imperialism and so forth. This description severs the 'extremists' off from the culture and history of the popular feelings from which Al Qaeda recruit and from which Al Qaeda draw support. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand the current situation at all. And in this sense, Vahid is quite right in his analysis of the language being used here.

What Vahid leaves out of his analysis of the language, however, is that it is firmly rooted in western culture. The nature/culture divide is so pervasively available that it is used to colour a whole range of distinctions, including racist ones, but also gender, class, culinary, musical and gardening ones. In this sense, it is not quite fair to point the finger at individuals who casually use the nature/culture opposition to describe differences. The opposition has all sorts of racist (and sexist etc) connotations and the culture needs to become more aware of these connotations, but it is also, in many circumstances, shorthand. Maybe it is not very sophisticated tool for thinking but that doesn't make it malicious.

that said, i know they want the western powers out of arabia (i would say "saudi arabia" but they opposed the saudis too) and other things; but the bombing in madrid, say, if it's indeed their work, seems to be connected to such things in a remarkably loose way

so is the mere presence of westerners in that region the bottom line re what bothers these people?

When the IRA blew up senior politicians, they didn't expect the British government to issue an immediate order to get the troops out of Northern Ireland. They wanted the presence of British troops in Northern Ireland to be contested, protested and made more difficult. And Al Qaeda, likewise, don't engage in terrorist activities in order to gain immediate, positive results. I think you underestimate terrorism if you think that it has no longer term aims or that its activities are stupid if they don't win them short-term advantages.