Are AC Milan the best team in Europe?

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An opinion formed over the period of one month, culminating in last night's 3-1 win over Juventus. They looked creative, fit and full of belief. And Juventus are no mugs.

In the Champions League when Sparta Prague equalised, they didn't panic, just regrouped and passed their way back in front.

And Seedorf is reborn.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

could be first club to retain European Cup since.....?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

actually if they did it would be sort of fitting given how likely it is that France will also retain their European Championship trophy. it's a season of consistency folks, unless you're a Spurs fan.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

or West Ham...

Inzaghi did miss a sitter of Rosenthalesque proportions, mind.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

He was probably offside anyway...

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

As was one of their goals. Or was that the Spanish game? I combined football with wine last night and my brain packed up around 9.30pm

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

could be first club to retain European Cup since.....?

Themselves? Back in the Baresi/Costacurta/Maldini/3 Dutchmen days?

― Nick H (Nick H), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

no. its arsenal.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Milan will beat Arsenal quite easily. Arsenal are still not that great at the back, whereas Milan are very very solid indeed.

Kaka is tremendous too.

― chris (chris), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Arsenal are going to lose to Real in the semis so its irrelevant really.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Arsenal's defence just isn't up to much no, the Italians do it better.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Kaka lived up to his name rather than his reputation last night. Just shows what a cracking side they are, even when all cylinders aren't firing.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I think with Arsenal the problem is that they have some quite good wide midfield players playing at full back.

― chris (chris), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Madrid could only beat Milan with a big big stroke of thier customary luck. The huge difference between their teams is in their depth, Milan have at least two world class players for each position, Madrid barely have one!

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Has Maldini retired yet? I must confess to a bit of a soft spot for him.

― leigh (leigh), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

No, still going strong. Played really well last night.

To confirm, Milan were the last team to retain the European Cup in 1990, beating Benfica 1-0.

The Team
G.Galli, Tassotti, Costacurta, Baresi, Maldini,
Colombo (F.Galli 89),Rijkaard, Ancelotti (Massaro 72),
Evani, Gullit, Van Basten

Goal from Rijkaard.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

nice to see a wily detective in a dirty mac sticking it out right til the dying minutes

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The grey ponytail got his 200th goal yesterday too.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I've heard tell that Juve are the worst side they've had for years; is that part of it?

― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

''Arsenal are going to lose to Real in the semis so its irrelevant really.''

you wish they are going to lose. doesn't mean they will.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes it does. I have snipers on the roof of Thierry Henry's house as we speak.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Arsenal's points per game average this season is not as good as AC Milan's.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Juventus have had worst sides than this. Champions League exit hangover summed up their attitude last night. And Di Vaio ain't exactly a goal tart.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

English teams have a bad record in Europe, it's hard to see even Arsenal overturning this, the defences just aren't as good.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Milan vs Arsenal would make a great final. Maybe a match too far for Real Madrid, squad for squad.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

English teams have a bad record in Europe, it's hard to see even Arsenal overturning this, the defences just aren't as good.

have Spain or Germany overtaken England as second most successful nation in European club competitions then? (they probably have but this would only have been very recently if so)

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i think Madrid's defense can be exploited - tho if Milan hadn't done what they did against Sparta Prague then I would've been highlighting their reticence up front too. Arsenal CAN beat them both but I'm pretty sure they won't.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

have Spain or Germany overtaken England as second most successful nation in European club competitions then? (they probably have but this would only have been very recently if so)

Do you mean over all history or on recent form?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I was wondering if England's record was best overall, I had a feeling it was but I was obviously talking about recent years.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Google will reveal all. But from the last six seasons...

1998 - CL: Real Madrid; UEFA: Inter Milan: CWC: Chelsea
1999 - CL: Man Utd; UEFA: Parma; CWC: Lazio
2000 - CL: Real Madrid; UEFA: Galatasaray
2001 - CL: Bayern Munich; UEFA: Liverpool
2002 - CL: Real Madrid; UEFA: Feyenoord
2003 - CL: AC Milan; UEFA: Porto

Italy (4), Spain and England (3) - not including the Super Cup but ratio would probably remain the same

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

In terms of wins it looks like Real Madrid are faraway the most successful team in Europe in recent times - if not the best team - Milan were conspicuous by their absence in the final stages of European club competitions between 1995/6 and 2001/2

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

UEFA etc are nothing trophies!

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Will you be saying that when Stevie Gerrard is holding it aloft in the summer?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 15 March 2004 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

but in Liverpool's and Porto's case they produce something finals - infinteiyl better than their Champions League final counterparts of same years

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I will, Houllier needs to go, doesn't matter what we win or lose.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Owen to Arsenal!

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i want that to happen

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

In the last ten years:

Champions League Winners / Runners'Up:
Italy 3 / 4
Spain 3 / 3
Germany 2 / 2
Holland 1 / 1
England 1 / 0

Uefa + Cup-Winners
Italy 5 / 4
England 3 / 2
Spain 2 / 2
Germany 2 / 2
France 1 / 3
Holland 1 / 0
Portugal 1 / 0
Turkey 1 / 0
Austria 0 / 2
Henrik Larsson 0 / 1

Total Finals since 2003
Italy 8 / 8
Spain 5 / 5
Germany 4 / 4
England 4 / 2

Yeah.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

How is Henrik Larsson a country, eh?

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 15 March 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Was Donadoni not at Milan in 1990? He was a bit overshadowed by the 6 I mentioned. Great player.

― Nick H (Nick H), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Greatest European Cup final you've seen?

For me, Milan vs Barcelona, 1994.

― Ally C (Ally C), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Dortmund v Juve was a goodun i seem to recall

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Real v Leverkusen in Glasgow a couple of years back. What seemed like hours of injury time, a fantastic goal by Zidane and all the pubs in Glasgow full to bursting.

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 15 March 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

haha who is still left in the european? could the uefa be better this year? O I'm biased.

― cozen (Cozen), Monday, 15 March 2004 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

UEFA must have been absolutely creaming themselves when the last rounds were completed - there were no clubs whatsoever from the former Eastern Bloc (nor Scandinavia, fwiw), just a couple of pesky Benelux and Turkish clubs (and Celtic - who to UEFA probably financially come under a general UKTV banner anyway, sorry Ailsa) left among the Big Five TV nations.

I think this has to be some sort of record - not even a Dynamo, a Sparta or a Slavia left and we're only just into March.

― darren (darren), Monday, 15 March 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I've no idea if Celtic are perceived as Scottish or British abroad, but yeah, it's the UEFA Cup of TV dreams. After Seville, I think they are will be seen as a cash cow for the country that gets the benefit of their visit for the latter stages, regardless of the fact that BBC Scotland will pay bugger all money and I doubt the games will get shown UK wide.

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 15 March 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the French clubs seem to be resurging

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I've not watched too much Serie A this season, but I've been more impressed with Roma in the couple of recent games I saw (stuffing Juve and Inter) than with Milan, oddly. Still, I think Milan will make the final this year, probably against Real, who will need a few of their front five megastars to be on top form for them to win - could be a highly entertaining final, given that Real have to attack creatively to balance their mediocre defence.

Best final I ever saw was probably the first football match I remember watching: Man U 4 Benfica 1 in 1968! Obviously there is loads of nostalgia in this judgement. More recently, I really like the Milan-Barcelona one.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Lpool-'gladbach in '77 was exciting as was Barce-Dusseldorf in the ECWC in '79 (being allowed to stay up to watch extra time; I wanted the Germans to win cos Barce had put out plucky Ipswich in the quarter on away goals, but Hans Krankl ruined that).

I don't remember most of the finals post-Heysel.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Red star Belgrade vs Marseille 1992 a beautiful game

let's not talk about Heysel eh?

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just going to say Heysel in terms of remembering exactly how I felt at the time. Fifteen years old and utterly confused.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

me too, I remember thinking how I was annoyed that it was delayed because of fighting and then they started taking the bodies away and I realised what was going on so I wnet into the garden and played with the dog while bawling my eyes out.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I was round my mate Simon's house. Heysel Put me off football for a bit. It wooed me back, of course.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I wasn't really intending to invoke the spectre of Heysel it's just that, what with the ban and the next year's 0-0 drearfest I don't think I sought out Euro finals on the box that much for a few years.

I remember Gullit's header though.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The finals were all the more exhilarating because this was the era before Eurogoals, before live Spanish football etc. Players you only read about, you could see live for the first time. That, for me, is why I find the World Cup so much more exciting than the European Championships; it's a little voyage into the unknown.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Arsenal are playing the best football in europe now.
I thing the final of the CL will be Arsenal-Milan

― 007, Thursday, 18 March 2004 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Real Madrid lost in the Spanish cup final again. Good.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I hope you're joking about '92, Chris.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 18 March 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

of course I am cookie, well, in a way, I loved that Marseille side, full of style and grace, but there was a grudging admiration for the way red star stuck at their task and just stopped them playing.

The Spanish Cup final was possibly the best match I've watched tghis season - constant attacking, 17 bookings/2 sendings off, two great freekicks, a great last minute winner.

It really was all good

― chris (chris), Friday, 19 March 2004 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

It might sound strange to say this (in the light of 17 yellows and two reds), but the Spanish cup final was not a dirty game. Inept referee set a precedent early on and every subsequent mistimed tackle saw a booking.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Friday, 19 March 2004 10:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Revive, to talk about tonight's match. Milan looked almost complete. I'm never that impressed by Inzaghi when I see him, but other than that they completely outclassed a very good Depor side in every department. The midfield four of Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf and especially Kaka were electric.

― Nick H (Nick H), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Kaka was like a hot butter through knife for 20 minutes out there. As an Inter fan, it pains me to say that.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Milan looked efficient, but I can't help but think there's something inherently joyless about their efforts.

Then again, I am just in a bad mood.

― Ally C (Ally C), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Hot butter through knife? That sounds like you're saying he couldn't penetrate at all - he scored two great goals. I'm not sure that the pundit's theory that their central defence looks vulnerable is sound - Maldini still looks good to me, and Nesta will be back soon.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 23 March 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Fear them.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

They will destroy all in their path.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 10:15 (twenty-one years ago)

It was like relaxing in a big bath with a Jack Daniels and naked Boney M

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I think in the Champions' League, experience is more important than pace in central defence, and no-one is more experienced than Milan there.

Costacurta will come out for Nesta, right?

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

that was quite the 'don't try it'.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i know what ally is saying. v talented but that midfield... experienced? i see potential for disarray and fluster. just a little. arsenal can do em

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It will be a clash of good football, should it happen. Milan have that knack of playing purple patch football. It didn't bother them that ten minutes into a home quarter final match, they fell behind.

They just moved through the gears to turn it around.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

dennis bergkamp. fate. divine right. something.

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

after the Depor goal went in in the first half, every time I looked up Milan were attacking, it was beautiful to watch.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

like naked girls in springtime

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

the only time i really felt like that was i. whenever cafu got the ball ii. when pirlo jinked out of defence cut in and lobbed just the most perfect ball on inzaghi's little head. he didnt score. pippo looks so haggard now! quivering bottom lips dont go well with that

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

haha OH YEAH and after the 4th goal when ancelotti did that pursed lip 'bring it on motherfuckers' thing with his hand

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Ancelotti looks BAAAAD-ASS.

Seedorf and Gattuso are hella experienced.

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i hate Milan being good, it's like 1994 once again, like in that South Park episode

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Milan looked almost complete.

As Big Ron said last night (and I hope the day never comes when it's considered pars-ay to quote Big Ron), "They've even got a couple of Dogs Of War but, y'know, good Dogs Of War."

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Kaka was the Shit.

― ..., Wednesday, 24 March 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, mate.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

!! I didn't hear Ron's Dog moment!!

Kaka looked pretty and talented. But perhaps he's just talented.

― the blissfox, Wednesday, 24 March 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Milan look so young. Even grandad Costacurta only looks in his late 20s. Kaka looks about 13. Pancaro is the exception.

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Maldini's still a cutie.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't decide whether Maldini is ruggedly handsome or beastlike in his ugliness.

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Kaka's first goal was unbelievable. Most players in that situation would have a) knocked it back to a teammate running in, or b) had a go on the full. But to thigh it so coolly and then volley with such power and accuracy... One of the goals of the season.

― Daniel (dancity), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I wish I'd seen this game.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Tomasson = The white scorpion!!!

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the goals of the season.

i wish he had been able to hit it first time but he was a step too far back, or too far forward...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

the midfield is not that impressive.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd like to see you do better

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

the midfield is not that impressive? what planet are you on?

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, Kaka had a poor game. And that was a flukey free kick.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

henry can do better.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I suppose and every time I looked up in the second half, the midfield were running towards the Depor goal instead of standing nonchalantly knocking the ball to each other while smoking roll-ups

Henry is a forward

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps he's referring to Henry's mastery of the midfield at Juventus.

I jest, natch.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Julio lives in contraryworld where clouds are black and Jess is tiny.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I was talking about the all round game, and deportivo were quite poor.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

World Cup Final 1970
The greatest Brazilian team ever? Nah, poor opposition. That Carlos Alberto couldn't miss.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

haha so one OK game and you're seriously comparing milan to brazil 1970?!

(but again, there's a lot of myth attached to that team, to make them better than they are actually were...lots of hyperbole here)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

"haha so one OK game and you're seriously comparing milan to brazil 1970?!"

uh-uh, point missed.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think he was no, just a point saying that stating that the opposition is weak is an easy way out when you want to put down an outstanding performance by a very good team.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

you do have to consider how good the opposition is when evaluating a performance.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Undoubtedly, and Deportivo are no mugs, but recognise good football when it's in front of you!

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Julio would recognise good football if it were being played in his front room, sadly.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I never said they weren't playing good football, but to expect chris to actually learn know how to read posts is a bit much.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

ulrika should seduce kaka

that was a flukey freekick btw

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:22 (twenty-one years ago)

shush prima, they are the best thing ever and cannot be defeated. one good performance against an OK team proves it!!!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

haha julio arsenal are getting equally silly hype too

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

well we haven't been beaten this season.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

'we' ha ha.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

that said i will support anything to prevent the queasy mutual arsekissing a milan-madrid final would result in

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

AC Milan haven't drawn as many, anyway.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

heike dreschler! it's all getting a bit lairy in here...

i think Julio had a point but he WAS being harsh - that said Deportivo are terribly inconsistent and will be remembered for conceding 8 goals in one match to Monaco as much as they will beating Juventus at their own game

it wasn't a flukey free-kick prima, the goalkeeper just played it badly (too far other side). Milan played fantasy football between minutes 35-45 and 46-60 no doubt

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

ok i tip my hat to getting a shot over the wall etc but bobbins keepery is still luck! at this level anyway

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

well we haven't been beaten this season.

17.09.03 Inter Milan (h) 0-3
21.10.03 Dynamo Kiev (a) 1-2

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

And twice by Middlesbrough.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

michael you know I'm talking about the league and you also know it takes a while to get into champions league mode.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

ten years ago Milan went an entire season in Serie A unbeaten as well

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

''ten years ago'' the format of the champions league was quite different from what it is today (also I think you play more games here than in Italy but I'd have to check on that).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

so you DO think Arsenal are better than Milan right now? interesting...

Real Madrid will beat them both of course ;)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Deportivo might just sneak it in the second leg, especially if it tips it down and there's a strong wind and then an oil tanker sinks and the oil sets on fire and the thick billowing smoke gets blown all over the pitch.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

michael you know I'm talking about the league

And you know I was gonna call you on that seeing as the focus of this entire thread has been the Champions League.

AC Milan are a fantastic side. As are Arsenal. I can't see any gulf between them.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:18 (twenty-one years ago)

steve- I was addressing yr point abt AC milan 10 years ago by saying it might have been a bit easier to go unbeaten bcz you play a smaller number of games.

x-post: haha michael I was addressing prima's: arsenal unbeaten therefore hype (I'll admit that it doesn't take much to get the papers going).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i know Julio

what annoys me is that if Chelsea lose tonight the whole Ranieri thing will intensify even more. i wish they would just leave the poort guy alone/Abramovich would learn the phrase 'if it aint broke don't fix it'

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

it's interesting cos the abramovich celebrity chairman management structure thing is standard p abroad. there have been far less deserving coaches ousted, perez v del bosque for instance. is the english mythos of teams as personification of manager and long development a fallacy? what is a sam allardyce team

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

like ok milan besides maldini and players like cafu and gattuso fondly regarded for having some vague idea of sprit and thus nobility are basically all a bunch of crooks onto a good thing no? "inter doing badly? ok milan then whatever"

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

he should stop looking like a disarmingly meek harry enfield.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah if he wants to finally get nabbed by interpol

― prima fassy (mwah), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

The keeper was possibly nervous with Pirlo's freekick, quite possibly from having been tortured by Milan for the previous 10 minutes.

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought Chelsea played well last night, their closing down was exceptional and they were bossing the game for quite a bit of it. It's the first time this season that I've seen Arsenal looking rattled....until their goal went in, then the old confidence returned. Henry was pretty much shackled though, Terry and Desailly (stupid boy) did a proper job on him. What was up with Bergkamp though? One of his worse performances, highlighting the fact that if Henry is shut down Arsenal are always going to squeeze goals out rather than play with the swagger and score freely like they do when he's given some space.

I think the Milan defence could shut him down the same way, but Madrid? hmmm I think he may cause them a lot of problems, especially if they carry on with the defenders they've got at the moment, who just aren't that quality.

Julio - you're hilarious - no, really.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought the game was very much the sum of its parts last night. Is that the first time Pires has headed the ball? He should do it more often.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Arsenal's ability this year is built on their unerring ability to score from a limited number of chances. They aren't as good as they're made out (believe me here - it took 4 years, but eventually I was proved right in my belief that France weren't as good as everyone said). The were really rocking after the first Chelsea goal and toure in particular saved them going 2-0. That's the test for the Arse - can they come back from such a deficit? I'm not sure.

Jens Lehman - I want someone to give him a slap.

Desailly - always been a petulant fucker; he got what he deserved last night with perhaps the stupidest handball yellow card I've seen from a professional footballers. It was utterly childish (hence I emjoyed it) but an act of cretinous stupidity from a core team member.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 10:17 (twenty-one years ago)

France are the best international side in the world and have been for 4/5 years apart from one month in 2002. Arsenal did look under par last night though, and Lehmann is the new Barthez...

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 10:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Poppycock. That 'one month aberration' was the entire point of international football. FIFA rankings don't mean shit.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

The Euro 2000 final showed that France's success has been due to a lot of luck and choking on behalf of their opponents (France didn't win the 98 final, Brazil lost it, likewise for Italy in 00).

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Hurrah! I heart Dom. He is a man who sees the path.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, shit, the 1998 squad had STEPHANE GUIVARC'H in the team, for crying out loud.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

''Julio - you're hilarious - no, really.''

really chris? really?!?!

didn't watch last night's match but you know, its chelsea, its not like Arsenal need to play at their best over the two legs so whatever really.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Have we got an official confirmation date for when Arsenal fans become more annoying than United fans yet?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:40 (twenty-one years ago)

that's why I said 4/5 years DOm as I agree that Brazil were superior at the '98 World Cup (and I think they would've destroyed the 2002 Brazil). By and large however no team in the last 5 years has played as brilliantly and consistently as France in my view, that makes them the best, for me. Otherwise yeah Turkey are the third best team in the world (no, they weren't even the third best team at the World Cup really, lottery power!).

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"Have we got an official confirmation date for when Arsenal fans become more annoying than United fans yet?"

Shovel from M People has always been an annoying tit.

― Jonnie, Thursday, 25 March 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought he was a QPR fan

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, shit, the 1998 squad had STEPHANE GUIVARC'H in the team, for crying out loud.

The amazing thing about the France '98 team was that they were so good without any decent strikers. Now they've got the best striker in the world AND Trezeguet.

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Yet they also had them at 2002 World Cup. And didn't score once.

Henry was there in 1998 too, albeit as a raw winger.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

there were loads of Arsenal fans in the pub last night that made going to the bar a nightmare, not because it was crowded, but because they all had ion their brand new shorts with Henry on the back and loudly showed their absolute muppetness by talking nonsense about everything that happened.

And Julio yes, your contrariness amuses me.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Stevem - you're such a ranking rockist. Turkey are the 3rd best team in the world, because they finished 3rd in the World Cup. This is the only measure we have. Yeah - it's something of a lottery but until we have a world league of countries, it's the best we've got. It's as ludic as life itself.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

they all had ion their brand new shorts with Henry on the back and loudly showed their absolute muppetness

http://www.carpages.co.uk/renault/renault_images/renault_va_va_voom_25_10_03.jpg

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 13:57 (twenty-one years ago)

one of them did look a little like animal, yes. He said that Chelsea were offside......in their own area

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Where were these geezers in the good old days, when football meant a decent punch up with some top boys and then legging it from the old bill. Scrafers, eh?

What's offside?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

didn't watch last night's match but you know, its chelsea, its not like Arsenal need to play at their best over the two legs so whatever really.

Ha ha.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Chris you should've been in the same pub as us - more or less empty, and both Champions League games showing. Even though I was over the road for the 2nd half and missed all but one goal.

But from what I saw, Arsenal were denied a win because Chelsea defended VERY WELL INDEED and bossed the midfield for basically the first half. Mutu was having a mare though - Chelsea really lack that killer edge in the last third and they couldn't open up the Arsenal defence.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Cole came on, flicked the ball up, did a stepover and promptly gave it straight to Viera. Lampard gave him a "that's why you're always on the bench, ponce face" look.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I remember getting annoyed that Edu has become quite a good player. And also by the fact that I was watching the game in enemy territory.

― Jonnie, Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave B the idea that Turkey are the third best team in the world is absurd and I don't think the World Cup should really be perceived as being about establishing such things. You might as well say Millwall are one of the best teams in the country because they're in the FA Cup semi-final. This doesn't mean the FA Cup and the World Cup are not worthwhile and hugely enjoyable exercises and experiences of course. I recognise that France might not be considered one of the great national teams compared to those of the past but based on what I've seen prior to and since the blip that was the World Cup they're better than anyone else right now (esp. evident when they destroyed SECOND BEST TEAM IN THE WORLD - GERMANY in Munich a few months ago, just as another somewhat 'over-rated' team did not that long ago (ok two and a half years)...

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I had 1-1 in the sweep at work. In my eagerness to get to work to claim my winnings, I left my book on the bus. Quick visit to WH Smith at lunchtime to buy a new one. Net profit £1.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched it in a student pub, empty because most of us have fucked off home for Easter (yes, already).

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

France have won, what, 14 games in a row now? I think they are favourites this summer - I imagine their front six might be Viera and Makalele dominating the centre, with creation from Zidane and perhaps Pires, with Henry and Trezeguet up front. Who can match that?

And this has hardly been just one good performance from Milan - they are I think ten points clear in Serie A, which is hardly an easy league to dominate - what I've seen of Roma this season has been hugely impressive, yet they are almost out of reach of Milan. And I think Deportivo are probably one of the ten or so best teams in Europe, so I wouldn't underestimate the value of that one win anyway.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

You wait until the Czech Republic sweep all aside at an unsuspecting Euro2004.

1-1 is great, all is poised for an incredible second leg. Where's the drama in the next Deportivo Milan game? If its not on normal telly, maybe we should FAP it in honour.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 25 March 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

My girlfriend said this recently, "Is the Ireland vs Brazil game a Euro 2004 qualifyer?"

Then she said, "no, it can't be, Ireland were knocked out."

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

The Czechs might be a good bet for Portugal. Good thinking Matt.

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I suspect that the Czechs will be rather longer odds than their form and class warrants, so they might be the best bet. But I've not looked at any odds, so might be wrong.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm getting excited by the Czech Republic v Netherlands clash already. June 19th, 7:45.

― Jonnie, Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Current odds with Betfair:

France 19/5
Italy 26/5
Spain 39/5
England 41/5
Portugal 44/5
Holland 10/1

Czechs 13/1

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

England 41/5

WTF? 20-1 would be mean.

(If only we had a defense, a goalie and some strikers . . . .)

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Odds are always lower in your own country though. God knows why, you should never bet on your own team, only against.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Czechs are still seen as dark horses despite having been one of the most consistent teams in the last few years - shame they always fuck up in the World Cup qualifiers really. After England they'll be the team I want to win the most, tho I am basically happy with anyone winning it except Germany.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

June 19th = football party at ours methinks

Portugal have to be worth a punt at those odds I think.

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Julio, I have to publically apologise to you, you're right, I really should learn to read threads, I mean, if I'd read this one properly I'd have ripped the pi$$ out of this:

didn't watch last night's match but you know, its chelsea, its not like Arsenal need to play at their best over the two legs so whatever really

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

''pi$$''

didn't know you started liking r&B and hip-hop, never too late to get better taste in music so well done.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

no, I try not to post properly spelled obscenities on a work computer is all.

Ha ha and I've liked dance music for years.

you're better than that

― chris (chris), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Czechs were 13/1 with Will Hill too. Won't England be shorter odds because you'll idiots wasting their money with patriotic bets?

Holland might be worth a punt - time for the '95 Ajax generation to come good at international level (yes I know they were ace 4 years ago but they didn't win did they?).

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the more intriguing fites this one :)

(xpost)

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Ace = missing penalties for fun = not very ace really

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Some of those Dutch cats are beginning to really purr at the moment, Davids at Barca, Seedorf at Milan and Van Der Vart at Ajax. Even Zenden is playing rather well at the moment. They'll still get a squabble started come the tournament and muck themselves up no doubt.

― Jonnie, Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve - I don't want to know who is the best team in the world. I just want footballer to be the winner.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 25 March 2004 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

At the end of the day, football's always the winner. Especially in Milton Keynes.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 25 March 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

24 points from safety? I don't think so.

(also, you might want to remember who you're taunting when Spurs go tits up and need to call in Supp0rters D1rect to sort them out)

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 25 March 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Given the track record for home teams in these tournaments, Portugal look a decent bet at those odds, and as I thought, the odds against the Czech Republic are pretty stupid. I can't say I'd put any money on England or Spain at those odds.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 25 March 2004 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, never put any money on England or Spain.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 25 March 2004 18:31 (twenty-one years ago)

the host nation hasn't won the European Championship since...?

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

France '84?

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, but France's and England's only World Cup wins, the recent African Nations - home nations do generally do well. Look at the latest World Cup - they went much farther than anyone had anticipated.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 25 March 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed, working backwards in WCs and ECs:
2002: S Korea - 4th
2000: Holland - semis
1998: France - winners
1996: England - semis
1994: USA - 2nd round?
1992: Sweden - semis
1990: Italy - 3rd

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 25 March 2004 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

To me, it seems that being the host is worth an extra round, success wise. The England team of 96 were really only quarter-finalists, the Koreans were only good enough to get to the quarters, Japan and the States weren't good enough to progress past round 1... etc.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

But no one thought the South Koreans or Japanese were good enough to get past the group stage, except in that home tournament.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

England '96 were good enough to win Euro '96, matched Germany all the way except in penalties.

South Korea's '02 success marred somewhat by appalling referee decisions but you felt the home advantage definitely helped.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

And that guy that set fire to himself.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

England 96 were the second best team in the tournament. The best team were Spain, though, who had about fourteen goals disallowed in the quarter final.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed.

― Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

heh, seems they never learn

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Spain were rubbish in the group though, muddled through against Romania, Bulgaria and France iirc. I really thought they could win World Cup 2002 and was just waiting for them to meet the Germans so was disappointed in a way when Korea put a spanner in the works because I couldn't see them getting past Germany or Brazil whereas I think Spain (and England, bah) could've and should've.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 25 March 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Barry understood my post.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 25 March 2004 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

football is a cruel cruel mistress.

Oh yes it's much more difficult to play against ten men.... unless those ten men play for Liverpool, they went from v. good to abysmal in one tug of the shirt. Which wasn't a penalty, obv. but maybe yes he should have been sent off.

Massive props to Celtic - we were having to flick between the two games and they defended tremendously.

― chris (chris), Friday, 26 March 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't even think Biscan necessarily should have been sent off. Was it any worse than what that Marseille player did to Sami Hyppia in the lead-up to the disallowed goal?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 26 March 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

good point, no, not at all. But then in that Drogba wasn't the last man was he? Whereas Biscan... (who had been going up in my estimations recently)

― chris (chris), Friday, 26 March 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Red card, yes. Penalty, no.

Is this one of those occasions where it would've been better for Liverpool had the Marseille forward, impeded as he was, gone on to score? Presumably the ref, having noted the offence, would have let it go (retrospective yellow card, maybe?) if the ball had squeezed inside the post.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 26 March 2004 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)

you're probably right Jonesy.

― chris (chris), Friday, 26 March 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

What idiot started this thread? It's plainly incorrect.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 8 April 2004 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a shame that no-one on ilx talks about the Champions' League anymore.

I like the Champions' League, nowadays.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 8 April 2004 08:08 (twenty-one years ago)

er, there is a champions league thread pf.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 8 April 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

its a shame no one talks about buying glastonbury, tickets

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 8 April 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

it's a shame, i think, that nobody ever seems to, talk, like this. anymore.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 8 April 2004 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you remember when AC Milan were the best team in Europe? Kaka, Shevchenko, Maldini etc. What a great side that was.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 8 April 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

i wonder, sometimes, what ilx would be like, if there were more than 10 people here

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 8 April 2004 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I, wonder, from, time, to, time, why, people, use, so, many, fucking, commas.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 8 April 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Like,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this,,,,,,,,,,,,,?

― ..., Thursday, 8 April 2004 11:19 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, i think that ....... DEPORTIVO LA CORUÑA is the best team in europe!!!

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Thursday, 8 April 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

ARSENAL ARE THE BEST IN EUROPE, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!

― Leela, Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Chelsea may disagree with you there.

― ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

Are Inter Milan the most revolutionary team in Europe?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4537859.stm

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 12 May 2005 01:15 (twenty years ago)

Revealed, Zapatista Leader sub-commondante Marcos is really Ted Johnson from Red Meat.

http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/current/index-1.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41134000/jpg/_41134989_marcos-ap203.jpg

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 12 May 2005 04:35 (twenty years ago)

i doubt this is about anything more than "our firecrackers are bigger than yours"

― $V£N! (blueski), Thursday, 12 May 2005 08:21 (twenty years ago)

eight months pass...

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/SPORT/football/01/31/italy.cup/story.palermo.ap.jpg

PALERMO 3 - AC MILAN 0

THAT IS ALL.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 23:07 (twenty years ago)

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