Hamas Leader Yassin Killed By Israelis

*why are they all crippled? Yassin in wheelchair; Rahman blind; bin Laden not quite, but he's got the kidney disease thing. The operations guys aren't, though KSM had "extra meat" on one of his fingers.

Good riddance to shitty human beings.

I don't think so.

But as you say steve, if a person doesn't support a potential bin Laden assasination then this argument won't hold.

But we need to assure you that... U have to start counting now...

1..2..3...4.. A LONG WAY TO GO...

No more than sending an 18 year old out to blow himself up telling him that in doing so he will go to heaven.

While I'm not in favour of assassinating anyone, I have to disagree with this. From what I've gathered, Al-Qaeda works in autonomous cells, and doesn't need bin Laden to "run smoothly". If bin Laden is even alive, he's pretty much in the hiding and can't lead Al-Qaeda anymore than Saddam could lead the Iraqi resistance.

i feel sorry for israelis now, among whom i count a number of friends

The Israelis identify their massively superior firepower as the guarantee of their safety. Nothing could be more understandable or more human and nothing could be more wrong. The inequality of power between the Israelis and the Palestinians is the reason why this conflict never dies. Only when the Israelis voluntarily cede a measure of power to the Palestinians will there be any progress toward peace. Every contrary action, like the Wall, will only make matters worse.

The USA is busily falling into the very same error. It's the same worldwide inequality that is driving the war on terror. The Bush administration's reaction is to drive ever more rigidly toward a worldwide monopoly on power. It will lead to the same result.

They can't look like Israeli stooges by locking up popular figures among the citizenry, and hope to maintain order, control or authority.

Which is, of course, the point. Make it impossible for the PA to govern peacefully, increase the scope of violence, eventually build to the final showdown. The Israeli government wants to make it impossible for the PA to govern - Sharon feeds on the violence, just as Hamas does. Without violence, without the bogeyman, the Israelis don't need him. Without Sharon or equally bloodthirsty Israeli leaders, the Palestinian people don't want or need him.

It's a sick little symbiotic relationship.

(And that's where, actually, the comparisons to the US make sense. Bush needs terrorism to govern, to push his agenda. If we 'win' the war on terror, what's he going to run on?)

Someone break out the violins 'cuz we're hitting up the victim-style hardcore. And Sharon can't dissolve the settlements or leave the occupation because think of how it would hurt his cred with the Israeli citizenry!

Is saying terrorists are popular figures among the Palestinians different then saying most Palestinians support terrorism?

Someone break out the violins 'cuz we're hitting up the victim-style hardcore. And Sharon can't dissolve the settlements or leave the occupation because think of how it would hurt his cred with the Israeli citizenry!
Haha, of course! Because the governing situations in Israel and Palestine are IDENTICAL!

If the PA locks up Yassin, it faces violent reprisals from the terrorist factions, even assassinations. This forces the PA to crack down harder on 'terrorists' thus making them even less popular among the people who go to the terrorists, etc. etc. etc.. Destabilize the government, Israel's goal.

Sharon faces losing an election (if that, given that the Israel populace's attitudes toward the conflict are hardly the same as Sharon's). It doesn't destabilize the Israeli state, there are no mass reprisals from settlers, nothing.

[quote]Is saying terrorists are popular figures among the Palestinians different then saying most Palestinians support terrorism?[/quote]
Yeah, since the two statements don't connect and there are great differences of degree. (ie adding "most" to the latter.)

Now, if you want to argue that many Palestinians support terrorism, I'll agree with you. Many Chechnyans support terrorism against the Russians. (Is anyone surprised that a violently oppressed nation isn't opposed to violence?)

At some point, you've got to sit down with your people and say, "that's it, it's time to stop this bullshit". Sadat did it with Egypt, after decades of leading the charge against Israel, he said "we're making peace with them, and that's that". You can talk all you want about him trying to appease the US and the Soviets or feeling he was in a strong bargaining position since wounding Israel in 1973, but at the end of the day, business got done.

I'm no fan of Sharon, but he personally oversaw the dismantling of the Israeli Sinai settlements (as per the Camp David agreement), and bulldozed the houses of the people who refused to leave. In response to his recent decision to dismantle the Gaza settlements, 120 000 people rallied in Jerusalem in protest. That's larger than every anti-war rally from this past March 20 (that I know of), 120 000 in a country of six million. Sharon's response: screw you guys, I'm not backing down, it's time to dismantle the settlements and that's that. He may not be the ideal "man of peace" that Bush may think he is, but when it comes down to it, he's shown that he can bend and concede when he has to.

I defy anyone to name one instance where a Palestinian leader said "stop this nonsense, we're making peace, that's the way it's going to be, and things will have to change".

If they're not going to stare some of their mythology in the face and make an effort to control their own extremists, then targeted killings like these are the best option.

(xpost)

(Or, you want another? Abortion. The GOP has to keep abortion legal but controversial, because it guarantees them a voter bloc that refuses to even look at pro-choice Democrats.)

Haha, I love your response, Barry - 'Yeah, well, when I said he should have arrested Yassin, I knew it was impossible. BUT TOUGH SHIT." That's, you know, a strong argument there, since you've effectively denied the Palestinians any room to maneuver or take action whatsoever.

Which is precisely the point, right? You're confirming exactly what I said about Sharon's intentions (and the right-wing's intentions as a whole) - put the Palestinians in a position where they're fucked by extremists on one side and fucked by extremissts on the other. That way you can dispense with any group that might possibly be committed to peace and a two-state system, and get Hamas in power for a real Battle Royale. Then you get to kill you some towelheads!

For once I agree with Jack Straw.

Just like our own recent adventure in Iraq didn't achieve the goals of the American people (freedom/security/peace), but it achieved the goals of Dubya and his henchmen.

(more xposting)

2) Right, as I said. "I don't care if it gives them no options and makes action impossible. FUCK 'EM LET'S KILL SOME TOWELHEADS!" Keep confirming exactly what I say, it makes this easier.

Chuck yeah I guess he didn't wear suits and introduce amendments to appropriations bills and shake lots of people's hands, but if anything that makes him even more of a criminal, to be dealt with criminally. I agree w/the doing-poorly-at-the-moment Charles Kennedy, who said that calling terrorist actions - and your actions against them - "acts of war" implies that your enemies are warriors. They aren't. If they blow up civilians on purpose they're criminals who should be dealt with accordingly. I don't care who they fucking pray to. If you blow up their leader it doesn't make you a warrior it makes you judge, jury and hangman. Yeah, I'm with Tuomas. I thought democracies were above that.

The only solution is to end the apartheid in Israel give all palestinians the vote and make Jews and Arabs share the land.

im convinced nobody's right on this issue. the un should just step in a forcibly evict everyone. thats the only 'easy' answer in this equation. the more realistic outcome is years and years of painful sacrifice that neither side wants to make..

2)THE PA CAUSED AND NUTURED THE PROBLEM!!! LET THEM CLEAN UP THEIR OWN MESS!!!!
They screwed THEMSELVES, and now they have no options. If action is impossible it's because they fucked up tenfold by not cracking down on terrorism during the last 30 years (or post-Oslo, Ed, when they did have a full and functioning police force whose foremost responsibilities as per that agreement was to curb terrorism).
It's the usual bullshit ... PA fucks up, blames other for their fuckup, and people like you say "oh, those poor Palestinians, now they have no options".

it's not like there's a choice here: EITHER we knock on saddam/yasin/etc's door and ask him to kindly step in to the squad car please OR we blow him to pieces with a helicopter gunship/cruise missile/F-15. and failing that choice, let's let this undisputably evil person continue to lead his undisputably evil existence because we're a democracy and we're civilized and it just wouldn't be FAIR FOR HIM to die at our hands without first having proper legal counsel at his side.

(btw, i agree this killing was utterly pointless. i just don't understand how anyone can argue it's morally wrong in and of itself.)

No need to dig anybody up, a prison interview w/ Yigal Amir wold suffice.

2) Right, as I said. "I don't care if it gives them no options and makes action impossible. FUCK 'EM LET'S KILL SOME TOWELHEADS!" Keep confirming exactly what I say, it makes this easier.

There has got to be some middle ground here where we can question and be critical of Arafat, the P.A., and the Palestinian people. Yes, Israel is an ally and a democracy, and it is fair to expect more of their government. But that does not free Palestinians from being responsible for their actions, particularly terrorism and the nurturing of it.

That article Ned linked to is a chilling bit of realpolitik.

You cannot however blame the palestinians for everything. The opportunities they've had have been small compared to the opportunities the Israeli have. The only chance the Arabs and the Jews have is to share the country.

The more so because it's rather obvious what will apparently happen next.

But debating Oslo is not the purpose of this thread.

John is otm. The only options are 1) targeted killing, 2) due process, and 3) nothing. 3) is ludicrous, because Yassin was a maniac who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds. And if the Palestinians can't deliver 2), then that leaves only 1).

and by the way, N otm.

(x-post)

So we are now in agreement ... the Palestinians didn't crack down on Yassin because as far as they were concerned, he was actually fighting for their freedom from tyranny. Therefore, whatever their reasons, they harbour terrorists. Therefore, those who opposed this killing would have been in favour of doing nothing because due process was an impossibility.

And comparing a maniac like Yassin to a civil activist like Mandela is a horrendous insult to Mandela. Show me the numerous quotes from Mandela where he said that every black's moral duty was to kill every white man he or she sees, and that the motor idea behind the ANC was to throw whitey into the ocean.

Speaking of reading and comparing the basics, you might want to read the Hamas charter. The charter represents the most basic purposes behind the existence and M.O. of Hamas, no rhetoric needed. Here's a link for you.

For some reason that terminology doesn't quite make me visualize explosives filled with rat poison and nails set off in crowded buses or cafes.

I suppose I meant the extremist factions of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Certainly not the innocent Israelis and Palestinians caught in the middle. I admit my statement wasn't exactly well thought out. I just get sick of hearing about all this sometimes.

John, I agree.

"I've written about little else than the targeted killing of Yassin"

- Barry Bruner: Tough Talk, from a Tough Guy

Why kill him now? 1) they've wanted him dead for a long time, so this time is as good as any. 2) take the position of strength as they withdraw from Gaza. Personally, I think Israel is nuts if they think that's how it will be perceived by their friends or their enemies, I think 1) was a good enough reason. However, it certainly is true that the withdrawal from Lebanon prompted an immediate reaction from Hezbollah, as they started trumpteting to their followers that Israel was showing weakness, that they (Hezbollah) achieved their goal of driving Israel away, and resumed cross-border shelling within weeks of the withdrawal.

So there's no reason that a similar situation would not have developed with Gaza, although killing Yassin was the wrong way to go about intimidating their opposition into not striking back. Regardless, I'm glad that the crippled old fuck is gone.

i.e., "If we crack down on 'terrorists' [I put terrorists in quotes because the Palestinians are expected to let the Israelis decide who that includes.] we'll face violence and riots, possible assassinations and overthrow from extremists within our own people. If we don't we'll be branded as terrorists and assassinated, and watch as the IDF kills even more of our people, thus inspiring more violence from the first group."

The Israelis face no such situation, unless you're suggesting that settlers would turn to terrorism and attacking the Israeli government?

2)THE PA CAUSED AND NUTURED THE PROBLEM!!! LET THEM CLEAN UP THEIR OWN MESS!!!!
They screwed THEMSELVES, and now they have no options. If action is impossible it's because they fucked up tenfold by not cracking down on terrorism during the last 30 years (or post-Oslo, Ed, when they did have a full and functioning police force whose foremost responsibilities as per that agreement was to curb terrorism).
It's the usual bullshit ... PA fucks up, blames other for their fuckup, and people like you say "oh, those poor Palestinians, now they have no options".
Why on God's earth would you expect anyone to 'crack down' on terrorists pre-Oslo? That's an inane position to take.

As to post-Oslo, that's barely ten full years. Five good years of a working peace, total. And the entire time facing the exact same catch-22 you've repeatedly confirmed. Which, again, makes your entire argument exactly as I've said.

From the minute they were screwed into accepting Oslo, the Palestinians haven't had a choice. People like you aren't going to give them room to get their act together while saving face and lives.

tracer otm

1) the israelis had assassinated the head of hamas (and killed a dozen innocent bystanders as well)

2) some russian nuclear warship is about to explode

good morning!

Although such lines are spewed by high ranking Arab officials with such regularity that, unfortunately, it does start to become funny after a while.

Is it so difficult to make a pro-Israeli argument at this point that whiny moral relativism is the option?

(x-post - Oh, I fully agree with you, Ed. I just think it's a funny argument for Barry to make.)

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

DEATH TO ASSHATS.

Loaded diapers are not dirty bombs.

http://www.banterist.com/

People endlesly assume that because I am not pro israeli, I am pro Palestinian. In truth I am neither. I am in pro the end of apartheid in Israel.

President, Palestinian Authority

Net Worth: $200 million

Skillfully deflected attempts by the U.S. and Israel to diminish his power in the Palestinian territories. His access to funding has been curtailed by Salam Fayyad, the PA's reform-minded finance minister. Arafat's office still enjoys a $74 million yearly budget--6% of the PA's annual budget--but funds are closely monitored. This after the International Monetary Fund estimated that $900 million had been siphoned out of the PA from 1995 through 2000, much still unaccounted for. Wife Suha reportedly under investigation by French authorities regarding $11 million transferred to her bank account from an unnamed Swiss institution.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26603

there was just a piece in the economist about how this guy might be someone the israelis could have negotiated with, and despite hama's angry rhetoric following the assassination of yassin, things might have had a chance of cooling down

there's definitely an element of this - I think Israeli measures have seriously weakened the ability of Hamas to strike inside Israel.