Does your partner get upset/jealous at your fantasy life?

Well, some people don't. Considering that this particular couple actually *met* through a mailing list dedicated to the obsessive discussion of a band (not Sinister) it seems a bit strange to allow the obsession that brought them together, but disallow another obsession.

I know people who have totally taken it over the line - heck, I know a woman who left her husband to stalk to her OoO - so obviously there is some kind of continuum. Obviously an obsession that interferes with your relationship means that there is a problem. But is the problem in the obsession itself, or in the relationship? Because as RickyT points out, shared obsessions can really help relationships.

The sexual dimension is often just not a problem in these couples - in fact, in some (creepy to me, but hey, who am I to judge?) relationships, it's actually a turn-on, because the appropriately gendered partner gets to pretend to *be* the OoO.

I would really prefer if this thread didn't descend into nastiness and kinkiness, but perhaps that's too much to hope from Nu-ILX.

Well, ideally you would be able to discuss your fantasy life with your partner of course. But if there really IS something that ranks as an Obsession, then I can certainly understand the partner being a bit miffed about it.

Kate, you and certain others on this board who go on about your crushes even though you're in a relationship - I hope your partners are a fuck of a lot more understanding than I would be if I innocently logged onto the forum where I knew she spent a lot of time and found endless references to her attraction towards other men.

One particular folkie girlsinger, I sort of got to notice, mainly because she bore a striking resemblance to my gf. So one day, she sort of asked, do I 'fancy' her you know, no comebacks, be honest. (Mmm. bevare!!!) But anyway, as I said, What would be the point? It would be like the same as, except as the famous person is as tall as I am, I'd just feel like I'd shrunk!

My general impression is she'd rather not know if I did, and to be hoest, I don't tend to do this anyway. Maybe it's like what you said about 'fanboy' obsession, and as I don't tend to obsess in that way...
...
um, no.

I'm wondering how other people in relationships different from ours (such as my mate and her husband) handle this sort of thing. Because unless they're eunuchs, people in LTR's are going to develop external crushes. How do you handle this when it arises, and is a Fantasy obsession more/less healthy in some ways than an IRL threat?

lol Kate this isn't snarky but your dude agrees to pretend to be your crush?

Didn't actually read my post, did you? I said that that was where I drew the line myself, and that's where I wouldn't go.

A couple I know, were always honest about their real-life crushes. (Actually, this happened to two couples I knew). These would just end in a sort of shared smile, a laugh, and carry on with life together sort of thing. They both ended up in bad places, lets say.

I'm not sure this is the key point, it's the endless wittering type stuff that amazes me. Really if you talk about that band in real life as you do on here I'd go potty.

my g/f will quite happily talk about how she finds people we know attractive: celebrities, friends of mine, whatever - bcz i'm not insecure about my own looks, and it doesn't bother me at all - i'm more interested to know who she thinks is handsome than i am jealous. but, crucially, she doesn't focus this sort of talk on one person - maybe then i would find it irritating, i dunno

was that it?

Like I said at the start, this thread is not about me. It's about how other people handle issues within their relationships.

Also, x-post, Gareth OTM.

to answer your question to the point, My SO can crush on who she likes, I don't mind, but if she bent my ear about them constantly I'd get seriously fed-up, not just for the disrespect thing Mark was talking about but also because it would just be feckin annoying

happy?

I'm wondering how other people in relationships different from ours (such as my mate and her husband) handle this sort of thing. Because unless they're eunuchs, people in LTR's are going to develop external crushes. How do you handle this when it arises, and is a Fantasy obsession more/less healthy in some ways than an IRL threat?

my ex and i never spent much time talking about who else we fancy/crush on at all - it didn't seem that worthwhile although certainly it could've been a touchy subject as i found often we would be out together and i would be looking at other girls i found really attractive looks wise, which made me feel guilty but also trapped in the relationship as i wasn't free to pursue anyone else, but there were other pros to her which is why it lasted as long as it did. i'm not sure what else to say about that though which isn't very useful sorry.

And that's all I'm saying.

picture me now single and afraid to go into any future relationships due to the knowledge of my own stupid jealous tantrums.

Personally though, I don't tend to develop massive crushes and obsessions on other people (tunnocks caramel wafers though num num) or really point out to S.Os if I find other people attractive - current S.O appears to find people from Velvet Goldmine and Twatty Little Molko Man attractive - the only feelings re: that I have are feelings of mockery, arf arf.

RJG, otm.

Except things that I find interesting, natch.

Aw MAAAAN!

Thing is, most people can give themselves a TV body within a year if they have the perseverance and self control.

or, there's always:

Plastic Surgery TV shows: Classic or Dud?

It's a shame that this thread turned out so "high school" because I'm trying to get at the mechanics of existing in a LTR and handling how you and/or your partner handle attraction to other people.

I think that "security" (whatever that is) plays a huge role. People who are secure to start with are possibly less likely to suffer from jealousy fullstop, regardless of if it's a fantasy figure or not. People who are honest enough to admit to feeling insecure are more likely to say that they are jealous.

Is the obsession the problem, or is the insecurity the problem? Depends on which is larger.

Anyhow. Off the af subject now.

Either way, it's extremely tiresome. It should hardly be threatening to ones actual partner as long as the partner has come to terms with their gf/bf's being a pre-teen girl or repressed gay guy.

In this specific case, it isn't even the amount of obsessing being done (which is fairly light by comparison) but other issues in their relationship.

It's very easy as an outside idiot with an opinion to bash "wittering on" because that happens to be their particular bugbear. In a relationship where "Wittering On" is default mode of normalcy, it's a sure sign that SOMETHING ELSE is going on if "wittering on" suddenly becomes an issue.

I can't conceive of any kind of kooky reality where me or my mate could shag Busted or Nigel Spivey or Duran Duran or whoever. But I know lots of blokes who think they *can* shag the barmaid.

It needn't signify a massive problem in the relationship either way, just another one of those accommodations we all make all the time for our loved ones.

example?

/sigh, very x-post but what the hell

Trying to carry on three trains of thought at once...

If the crush is the barmaid, it's justified insecurity and says something about the crusher and their insensitivity.

If the crush is a fantasy figure, it's unfounded insecurity, and says a lot more about the partner and their sensitivity.

There can be other problems in a relationship ... if the "wittering" is escalated, perhaps there is something going on in the crusher's life. Which may have to do with the partner (for example if the partner is not paying enough attention) or may have nothing to do with the partner (for example if the crusher is going through a particularly stressful period and the crush provides a distraction).

i don't think this means anything really. maybe some men (tho it applies to some women too of course) are just being sensible and instinctive in crushing on their local barmaid given that she appears to be attractive to them and attainable to a greater extent than slebs. nothing wrong with this per se, though it may suggest they are concerned with what they perceive to be shortcomings of their current partners. not that once everybody finds somebody they stop finding anyone else attractive and think about shagging them - only human etc.

That's the thing. I can swoon over something and appreciate it aesthetically without craving it.

Obviously, for some people it's plain straight irritation, for some people it's not an issue, and for some people it's a symptom of much deeper issues. I guess I'm trying to drill down to what makes the difference in reaction, and what the deeper issues are.

This plus your beloved = groupie whore syndrome.

You may well feel easier in talking to (lets say) celebgirl, as you sort of know what she's like. Whereas Bargirl is an unknown quantity.

My underlying feeling kate, is being scared of losing my boy. that's why I have any jealous feelings.

I've been guilty of this, and it was symptomatic of the fact that the relationship was rotten, rather than there being something inherently wrong with ILX (or the obsession, by extension).

Which is something I brought up above. Obsessions getting out of control can be a symptom of something deeper - hence the psycho I mentioned who left her husband to stalk a pop star. It was symptomatic of her being a nutjob I mean, the marriage being unsatisfactory.

But in the scenario, the bargirl looks the same. So, she would as well.

Your feeling of security comes not from the feeling of "my partner only has eys for me", it comes from the feeling of "boy the Atlantic Ocean sure is big"

Is it okay for your partner to go on about a real person you both know all the time as a fantasy? If not what makes the small chance of them meeting X celeb any comfort?

Somehow, I've never got around to telling my girlfriend about my Emmanuelle Béart crush.

Gist of it: In situations like this it's best for the person to refrain from going on about their obssession to their partner out of respect, not of their security, but their sanity. One's obssessions quickly become very boring to everyone else.

My current celeb crush, Bam, isn't really an obsession since I don't have the time for that but I still try not to go on about him. My boyfriends (yeah plural, long story, check blog or TITWIS) don't really have to deal with him past the pictures in the bathroom or the occassional CkY video (which they do enjoy).

I worry more about *ILX* getting tired of my Bam-crush but I think it's mostly become a joke here anyway. ;)

i've met a few famous crushes/fantasy boys, and didn't ever consider trying to make anything happen (except with andrew from sloan, but come on, who could resist trying?). but my real life crushes tend to get me into a little trouble.

so maybe i shouldn't answer the question at all? i'm practically brain dead today, so sorry if this isn't coherent at all. i just wanted to agree that i think there is a difference between real life crushes and famous fantasies, and so the celeb/barmaid example is a good one.

(x-post X4)

But my point was that I feel that I cannot live up to it whether my boy would want me to or not. it's not about what he wants, it's about how it makes me feel & yes, inadequancy is one of those emotions.

x-post ... oops, sorry, not you, Pink!

He never got jealous though of any fantasy-based crushes or obssessions I had though. Instead he got insanely jealous over every single other person I had more than a cursory interaction with. maddening.

The fact that he has now agreed to share me with another person is currently boggling my mind. Although he appears to have changed, I really don't believe people can.

After neogtiations and emotional conversations this weekend, I'm currently dating two guys who each are only dating me. Time share I suppose?

Sam - ye not a little worried about this? :)

(Hooray for Noodles and the Poxy Fuling, too.)

Sarah, I'm not really, it's not that structured or anything and each guy knows what's invovled. If either decides they are not comfortable they are free to bail. It's just a matter of one (the ex) wanting only to be with me, me still caring for him but in the throes of new love with someone else, and the new guy only interested in me but incapable of being able to spend as much time with me as a full-on boyfriend should. So for the moment all is well. The boys drank and played pool together this weekend and independently each told me how cool they thought the other was.

(xx-post, mark g otm)

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=1619086
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=4401764
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=1812966
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=1996715
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=3727633
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=4284800

how many times have we discussed polyamory? do a search for ImPassinOpenWindows (ms. laura)
-- Viva La Sam (...), February 12th, 2004.

...who of us actually has a mutual fantasy life with their partner, ie. involving each other in sexual fantasies about other people? I have never had the nerve to even try, personally.

It was the sort of thing I used to think was a really really good idea when I was about 18. Thankfully, I have grown up just a little bit since then, and realised what bad idea this is and how hurtful it can be to the parties (both partners) involved.

I assume this means our relationship is healthy.

if only i had named the ONE I MET IRL. i had half a mind to ring my gf on with a "can we reneg the celeb choices hun?" but it was late in the night

If the person I'm seeing has a crush on someone in the real world, I'd be insecure as hell, because in my mind, they've thought about doing the nasty and getting in on, which would make me paranoid that they had / would or might leave me for them. In some way, the real life aspect means that a bridge has been crossed in the head as you've considered the possibility.

Now everyone can have a fantasy moment, but to elevate a person you've seen in this light into an ongoing crush..well, maybe I'm screaming lapsed-catholicism here, but I'd see that as really really off-putting. Potentially rellie killing TBH.

If however, someone had a crush on someone completely unattainable such as a celebrity, I'd want them to keep it to themselves as it means 'I think they are better than you in some way'. I know there are plenty of people better than me in many different ways, but part of the rellie pact is to keep that truth hidden from each other as rellie is a compromise. Also, if they really are obsessing about a sleb, then they really should keep it quiet as I'll lose respect for them ultimately as I find the whole crushing on a sleb thing really weird to begin with. It's a bit like voting Tory or being a practising religion type person - if it floats your boat, then groovy, but don't expect me to maintain my respect for you as a result.

(Justine Frischmann to thread!)

I haven't had a stupid fantasy boy crush for AAAAAAGES.

?

(If my timesheet doesn't get faxed over soon, I'm going home anyway, but that's another story.)

Kate, I can see the point about: "It is a FANTASY. Not all people even *want* their fantasies to come true.", but surely this is an opinion that people who don't share it will find pretty hard to understand? If, for me, "I fancy X" means "I find the idea of having real-life sex with X appealing and would like it to happen", then I don't think I should tell muh partner than I fancy other people, even if it's unlikely to ever be consumated. And if she's telling me that she does, then I'm never going to be happy about that assymetry, even if it's actually, y'know, my fault.

I'm not sure I actually have a point here other than, like,
i) Communicating some non-harmful stuff can be bad, occasionally, although obviously not if they see things in a similar way...
ii) Busted are great.
iii) Christina Milian is hott.

I suppose I left it somewhere. On a station platform? On a bench? In WH Smith? In Sainsburys, beside a checkout? At a bus stop? On a luggage rack, on a train, like the guitar I lost in September 1999?

Cut to Willow: I'll check the internet!

There's no difference here except how the sexes express their enthusiasm. Girls grow up and still get giggly over Duran Duran. Boys grow up to be Rob from High Fidelity, making their top 5 lists.

Are you sure? I mean, this isn't exactly a typical situation. You'd have to be a certain kind of person to even have this problem, and be in a certain kind of relationship.

I think some of the blanket judgements made here are far more inflammatory.

additionally, there needs to be a measurement drawn on how much "talking" actually happens. It's more like this:

Sunday: Busted on Popworld. Get up early to watch. Vocal enthusiasm over performance.
Tuesday: Busted on cover of Time Out. Purchase at newsagent.
Friday: Busted appear on ToTP. Make point to watch. Vocal enthusiasm over performance.
Monday: Busted single released. Vocal reminder to buy it.
Sunday: Busted single goes in at no. 1. Much rejoicing.

This is hardly 24-hour nonstop wibbling.

(x post)

It's no more ridiculous than getting jealous over a band. And yet people do it! There are a lot of boys who can only admit now that Duran Duran is any good because back in the day they were jealous that girls liked them and thought they were pretty.

x-post

Are you talking about fantasies here? Because fantasies, when indluged by understanding partners in safe and controlled conditions (ie, as fantasies), are healthy and good.

If you don't find an outlet for your fantasy or fetish, that's when you find murdered little girls in Soham, worst case scenario.

Why doesn't Dan Savage hang out on ilx? He'd so back me up on this one (no pun intended)

I don't lbuy the "get it all out in the open or it'll eat you alive" type of thinking. Keep shit in balance with a little etiquette and things are fine for me.

No, perhaps only some of them.

I do think it's possible to be pretty fulfilled by the person you're with though. I doubt I'd want to be in any relationship at all if I had some actual need to fantasize about other people.

Good fantasies to me = if someone is imagining something like a specific situation, sensation, or a scene rather than wanting a specific other person.

1) Celebrity is a red herring. There's a reason I used the term "Fantasy Crush" rather than "Celebrity Crush".

2) Meta-ILX "argh, it drives me crazy when you post about X all the time" is a red herring. Some folks have obsessive type personalities, some folks just don't. I am going to make some generalisations here, but I am going to try not to make them "gender" based generalisations. Type A obsesses about facts, about things, about concepts. Type B obsesses about people, about relationships, about images. They are two sides of the same coin. I resent when people try to put one Type above the other. The same brain-fart that drives me to drop ::insert crush here:: into every conversation is the same brain-fart that makes others alphabetise their B-side collection or collect plastic monkey-molecules. Type A and Type B will mix/form relationships a hell of a lot easier than non-obsessive people, so long as they are willing to accept that they have differing obsession styles and both are valid.

3) Even the word "Fantasy" seems to mean different things to different people. Again, I'm not going to make gender generalisations, but to Type X, "Person Z is attractive" means "I want to have sex with Person Z" while to Type Y, "Person Z is attractive" means nothing more than "Person Z is pretty to look at." It's the same thing with "Fantasy" and it's dangerous to project your own interpretations onto your partner's statement.

4) The negative reactions on this thread are perhaps even weirder to me, because I'm in a relationship with someone who actually encourages me to share my "fantasies" perhaps a little *more* than I'm willing to indulge. Perhaps this goes along with what Archel was saying about *secret* fantasies being more worrying than ones that are discussed. Or, more likely, as Oops said In fact, hearing about them might even turn me on, as they're a sign of her libido. So who knows! 75% of ILX might think I'm a weirdo pervert for my obsessions, but the person who shares my bed doesn't think I'm perverted *enough*. Hah!

so share it with him rather than several hundred people who don't give a shit/are bored with it

I agree with this point, but projected insecurities about whether a partner wants someone else is one thing, while that partner actually wanting someone else is another.

Just because the definition of "fantasy" varies, it doesn't invalidate the idea of one person not accepting the other's fantasy life, does it?

*Debatable, although she expected me to talk to her for most of the 5 hour flight rather than read up on closing pitching options. Also note: this is no longer my partner but a very good friend.

'love is this neat warm fuzzy compromise':Fantasties abt others are okay, since fun and unavoidable :: 'love is GRAND ROMANTIC WOE':introduction of others hurtful and unacceptable?

xpost

i think you've put your finger on it there, kate. its nothing to do with obsessions etc. as ever, these are just the window dressing for the root problem, which is insecurity. and the insecure mind doesn't countenance such wisdom as "she'll never meet him" or "its totally unreal" or anything like that.

i tend not to swoon over superstars too overtly, partly because i'm quite hugemongously shy, partly because i'm Joe Relationship, and partly because there's a chance i might end up interviewing whatever crush at some point, which would make me feel very awkward around my mrs. which is silly, because we both work in the industry, she's dated rock stars, she's very very sensible and level headed and has a sense of humour about things... i've interviewed melissa auf der maur and paz lechantin in the last year or so, and got on very well with both - the latter was very funny and kept winding me up with saucy jokes (*proffers hand* "do you know why this is the best hand to masturbate with? Because its *my* hand"), while the former and i ended up talking about some dark stuff and she kissed me at the end and said i was 'very sensitive' - and i told pam, and now she just winds me up every time we see either in the media.

but i used to date a girl who got quite upset about such stuffz. there was a certain semi-obscure indie-rock singer/guitarist in the mid-90s, and before we dated we were both fans, and i said how she made me *swoon*, and she said "well, i'd do her". later, said singer and i became friends after a bunch of interview things, and we stayed in e-mail contact. she's VERY married, has a kid now, and there was never *any* kind of sexual connection at all, but when the girl became my girlfriend and discovered this singer and i were email buddies, things got very complex, to the point where i wouldn't hang out with the singer when she came to london, because i felt awkward.

pam and i don't really slather over rock stars in public, except kind of to joke, but i don't think i'd have too much of a problem with it (until she were to have to go away with said rock star!)... i dated a girl for two years who slept with an Evan Dando poster her bed, after all...

Re Evan Dando poster over bed, haha, SO DID I (well nine months anyway).

(* thinks of the bam pictures taped on her bathroom mirror*)

- godzilla
- a specials gig flyer blown up
- teenage mutant ninja turtles from when i was a wee thing

Is this the same list that costs $35/year? ;)

FYI, it's not necessarily easy to shag members of that band. (You knew I had to add my $0.02, hm?) Here are the requirements you need to meet in order to fulfill that goal:

Simon:  You need to be a barely legal blonde leggy model type. Brains are secondary here, though they might help if he suddenly decided to be his usual snarky Simonly self. (What's with all these brunet Simons from around London, anyway?)

Nick:  You need to be an overly wealthy leggy socialite type. Brains are absolutely vital if you're going to want to stick with him and his "agile mind" (as Simon put it in 1984). If you're a Lady Such-and-Such, even better.

John:  Seeing as though his current marriage (to the head of Juicy Couture) is generating a whole lot less dramatic gossip than his former one (to Amanduh de Cadenet), it seems as though you'd need to be a hugely successful American woman -- looks are a very distant second or third here.

Warren:  Pre-December 2003, all you'd need to be is alive. Post-December 2003 -- maybe alive AND a born-again Christian... ?

Roger:  Unknown; he seems to still be very much in love with his Italian wife Giovanna. Best forget him.

Andy:  Why on (planet) Earth would you want to shag Andy?

xpost

I mean, yeah, sure, he was kinda cute ca. 1984, but then he grew and nurtured that hideous mullet, and then he got heavier and heavier (mostly with drink), and then he decided it'd be a good idea to have a pair of black sunglasses welded to his head, and now to top it all off he has that Rod Stewart-ish weird-looking rooster 'do going on.

(Note: I'd cut him some more slack if he hadn't been so lawsuit-happy in 1987.)

(Another note: You don't have to tell me I know too damn much about that band.)

Thanks for your addition to the thread, Stevie, I find that very interesting. One of the biggest reasons that I want my "fantasies" to stay fantasy was getting too close to the music industry, and finding out too much about the old man behind the curtain that was the actual rock stars behind the myths. The myth/fantasy was so much more interesting than the person could ever be. And you're right about the insecurity thing.

On rereading this thread, the main problem with its derailing seems to be the odd conflation of obsession with fantasy. Which are two pretty different things really.

Welll... I don't know. I see fantasy and obsession more as kind of a continuum rather than an either/or situation. Libido and fantasy and obsession and creativity are so bundled together in my mind and my experience. Where fantasy and obsession overlap, there creativity lies, and that's the bit I'm interested in. But that's just me and my weird brain-world.

Ailsa - I hate to say it, but you know the old addage. If you don't like the subject/thread, you are under no obligation to read or post. Just so you know.

Kate, after reading through all this, only one question to ask: who says that there has to be a concrete divide between having a libido and being in a relationship; I'd think both would feed off of each other, and vice versa.

Where fantasy and obsession overlap, there creativity lies, and that's the bit I'm interested in.

Not that I'd actually know about obsession (to date, I've never obsessed about anyone---famous or no), but I believe obsessions can be healthy as long as you channel them to provide fresh ideas to use on HSA.

read in the paper at the weekend they were getting divorced. he looked k-hot in the accompanying photo.

Kate, I know I don't have to read the thread. I thought i would like it. I did. Just not the bit I commented on, hence the comment :)

Unless you are Yasmin Le Bon, that is?

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/galleries/celebrity_marriage_forever/images/large/simon_yasmin.jpg

Actually, all the girls I know who have shagged Simon Le Bon-Bon were brunettes, but that's another story...
Hmmm. Most of the women he was spotted picking up during the late '90s tours were blondes. Wouldn't surprise me if he has, um, broader tastes.

read in the paper at the weekend they were getting divorced. he looked k-hot in the accompanying photo.
You're f***ing kidding me. Ok, first of all, this means I'm behind on my band gossip, and secondly, I would've NEVER figured he would've ever split from Giovanna!

just tryin to help (dontgiveuphope @ girl.com)
*snort* I'mactuallyaNickandJohngirlandhaveneverbeenpartialtoSimon*ahem*.

Just to keep this as part of the discussion, even as a teenager, when I most strongly celeb crushed on Nick and John, I never lost sight of the fact that they were (a.) celebrities, (b.) perfectly capable of picking up loads of fine young ladies without taking me into consideration, and (c.) probably never even going to be interested in me anyway, even if we ran in the same circles. I've always been fairly sensible with my celeb crushes, choosing to think of them as harmless bits of fun and light I would never do anything with.

her body is funny
I actually think she looks really good for someone who's given birth to FOUR children (!) (Thus says someone who still wishes she could look like that, so, um, anyway.)

(Heh. I feel like I should put a disclaimer on this post:  Do not read if you dislike magazines such as OK! and People.)

Well, good for you if you don't have something that eats you alive.

How did this thread ever get derailed...

Kate, after reading through all this, only one question to ask: who says that there has to be a concrete divide between having a libido and being in a relationship; I'd think both would feed off of each other, and vice versa.

Well, I never said there was a concrete divide. It's just a fairly well-known psychological oddity of human nature that after the wonderful honeymoon period of non-stop-erotica, there comes a point in most long-term relationships where it kinda levels off. It doesn't mean necessarily that you've lost your libido, it just means that routine and familiarity etc. have just taken their toll. Sorry to sound like a bored suburban housewife, but there's the desire to "spice things up". What do you do? You can hang around in pornshops or S&M clubs or get into "swinging" and all those other cheap nasty boring parochial things. Or you can get The Horn watching TOTP. Whichever turns your crank.

Kate, I know I don't have to read the thread. I thought i would like it. I did. Just not the bit I commented on, hence the comment :)

Well, how am I supposed to get that from seeing just one random nasty comment inserted in the middle of a thread? :)

I would like to point out that there is quite a difference between the occasional "Phwoar, Busted are hott!" outburst and actually sharing my sexual fantasies. Because, really, apart from obvious Randy Old Woman jokes (and one ill-advised drunken outburst), I generally don't do the latter. (Then again, how is a person who knows me solely through the internet supposed to know the difference between a joke and an actual desire?) I would hate for this thread to be a purely *academic* discussion, but I would like it to be - and I think it has been - an open discussion of touchy sexual/emotional issues.

Sure, I opened myself up by bringing up my own personal life for discussion. But it would be really nice if we could really actually discuss adult issues as adults, rather than just using this thread as a dumping ground to vent other personal issues.

Anyways, thanks Lady Di and Webcrack for making useful comments. Because, if nothing else, this thread did provoke some interesting discussion at home.

Well, how am I supposed to get that from seeing just one random nasty comment inserted in the middle of a thread? :)

So why assume I hadn't read the rest of the thread? Why assume anything? Fuck's sake, it was a throwaway comment :) truce?