How can I stop myself typing two spaces at the end of a sentence?

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I don't know when I learned to do this, but it's old hat these days. How can I get out of the habit?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Why did you do it?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

But, but, but you're supposed to.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know why I do it. I think it might have been style guidance at university. But certainly for things for publication in newspapers, it's a no no, and subs just have to spend time stripping them out.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I still do this all the time, it's like I'm back in Mr. Jaycox's typing class freshman year, trying to memorize Bob Dylan lyrics and me and Joe hiding from Bill Phillips who wanted to kick our asses and lusting after Amy L3Bare and G4yle F4l4rdeau who were from the 91 District School and did their nails all white with tiny little polka dots of red and blue and green on top.

― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, i was taught to put two spaces in, i think it looks better, but that was secretary training not journalist training...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I still do this. God forbid I ever have to rid myself of the habit.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Some people put three.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Stripping out double spaces is one of the banes of my life (although doing a find and replace is fairly easy, they still creep through). I was taught to do it when I took typing lessons as a pup, but I think the superior kerning etc of wordprocessing fonts over fixed-width fonts makes it redundant. You can probably set up an auto-correct macro thingy in Word to replace them as you go?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I always put two spaces, after a full stop. even if there's nothing after it.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

we were taught it at university. it looks best I think.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

that's just madness, obv. i think it's sad that HTML strips out the second space, unless you tell it not to.

tha's a point J, you could just say autocorrect fullstop double space to full stop single space.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

(three spaces was the madness i was refering to)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i think it's sad that HTML strips out the second space,

Oh yeah - I'd never noticed!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes I learnt it in typing class too and still do it out of habit, it looks neater anyway. How come it's not right in journo land?

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

It's just old-fashioned 1950s style and POINTLESSLY FUSSY. Cease and desist this two-space madness!

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

no surrender!!!!!!

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I remember being taught the same thing, like in elementary school typing sclass, and it stuck. I don't do it online anymore, but I think I always did it in my college papers.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I was taught to do this at my first job, and it has since become a nightmare -- I automatically tap out two spaces. Every style guide I've used that's been updated in the past ten or fifteen years expressly notes that it's unacceptable to put two spaces after a sentence -- so WHY did we all learn to do this?

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm going to commission a think-tank to estimate the productivity increase that the nation would see if aging typing tutors were forced into reeducation programs and prevented from corrupting our youth.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Funny, I spend my entire life putting extra spaces in after full stops for academics who've never learned The Rules and submit bashed out, badly typed abstracts in the belief that their submission will be accepted because they have a Name. Two spaces only goes wrong if you justify your paragraphs, but I've never been much of a fan of that anyway.

― Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I was taught to do the two space thing two. And then I got a job and irate sub editors soon beat me into shape.

Sit next to the subs' desk Nick.

― Anna (Anna), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I think we were taught it in school as it made the papers easier to mark for teachers. The more spaces we left, the more spaces for them to fill with red-inked uptight bitchy chicken-scratched grandmotherly scrawl.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

As I said upthread, I think the rationale behind it was to do with fixed width type on old stylee typewriters. Now we have tappetty liteboxes THERE IS NO NEED.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

As Jerry obliquely mentioned, it's a holdover from fixed-width font (haha like the one I'm typing in now). Join the twentieth century, people!

er, xpost.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

justified paragraphs [shudder]

another one for the first against the wall thread...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Justify your hate.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I rewrote my work editorial style guide to incorporate the two-space thing. I do it out of sheer reflex action. Natural instinct - like if they ever drop my first born in the forest to be raised by wolves and he one day comes across a keyboard he'll be typing double-spaces too.

God help I ever have to stop doing it.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Although on ILE one space looks identical to two.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

cos it makes the spacing all wrong, and it just looks WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and t h a t t h i n g where words do that is annoying too...

there is no justification really, it's just a thing...

matt to get a double space in HTML you have to use &sp i think

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

If anyone does that then they really are bonkers.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I somehow avoided ever getting into the habit of doing this.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

hahahha, do you see what i've done there, i've tried to put lots of spaces between two letters adn it hasn't worked...

t<&sp><&sp> <&sp>h<&sp> <&sp><&sp>a<&sp><&sp><&sp> t<&sp><&sp><&sp><&sp> t<&sp><&sp> h<&sp><&sp><&sp><&sp> i<&sp><&sp><&sp> n<&sp><&sp><&sp><&sp> g

hmm, wonder if that'll work...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

arses...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

What is your problem, Steve? It's not so hard.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:55 (twenty-one years ago)

[very loud raspberry noise in the direction of glasgae]

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

You're NOT supposed to do this?! Damn Mrs Branagh, I trusted her so... See I've done it twice in this post now. There it goes again...

― Crackity (Crackity Jones), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Everyone apart from Jerry needs a good slapping.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm trying my best.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Jerry is completely right here. listen to him and stop talking back.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I will continue to use two spaces because I like it.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

the two spaces after a period thing is a BAD BAD BAD habit that comes from the days of manual typewriters, which were monospaced. Where traditional hand typesetting and phototypesetting looked pretty, typewriters were uniformly spaced out, and the extra space probably was needed to make it clear the sentance was ending. However the very day everything went computer was the day everyone should've stopped doing it. There are automatic ways to fix it, every time I have to set documents in Quark using copy typed up by some idiot copywriter or account executive, I do a simple find and replace, find double spaces and replace with single spaces.

I was in the habit of doing it, then I got out of the habit. I imagine it's easier then say, quitting smoking. Give it a shot, your cover letters and other computer typeset letters will thank you.

SERIOUSLY, two spaces after a period is completely wrong and goes against hundreds of years of typesetting.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see why people think it looks so bad.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I refuse to stop doing it.

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Go to a bookstore. Look at all the books. None of them have 2 spaces after the periods.

Go to any graphic design or advertising agency that sets type. None of them use 2 spaces after the periods.

Ask anyone who is a professional typsetter, who's spent years studying typography, and none of them use 2 spaces after periods.

Who uses 2 spaces after periods? People who were taught typing in middle school by teachers who learned typing from manuals created for secretaries using manual typewriters during the 70s.

Manual typewriters give each letter the same exact space to exist in. This is called monospacing. Professional typesetters, linotype machines, phototypesetting, and all computer word processing programs have spacing for each letter defined in relation to the what comes before and after. Well design fonts have what are called "kerning pairs" which is how Word or QuarkXPress knows to tuck the o back under the T in the word "To". Likewise, the programs know how much space is needed after a period.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

and by professional typsetter, I mean "typesetter." I'm an okay typesetter, but a terrible copy-editor.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see why people think it looks so bad.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Go to a bookstore. Look at all the books. None of them have 2 spaces after the periods.
Go to any graphic design or advertising agency that sets type. None of them use 2 spaces after the periods.

Ask anyone who is a professional typsetter, who's spent years studying typography, and none of them use 2 spaces after periods.

Yes, yes, yes ... but if they did use 2 spaces, would it look so terrible?

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

we were taught it at university. it looks best I think.

I think it looks HORRIBLE and WEIRD! Stop doing this, ppl!

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a waste of space!

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

do not attempt to argue typesetting issues with dan. pat him on the head and back away slowly.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the "a waste of space" is the only decent argument I could imagine.

what if you've got plenty of space? I do.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I don't!

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

listen e e cummings, I don't care how much space you have, most typefaces are designed to be used a certain way, if you break those rules, which you can, you are decreasing legibility, which is fine, if that's what you want to do. Two spaces after a period? Go ahead. Why not make the period align with the top of the letters instead of the bottom. And wouldn't T's look good upside down? I have no problems with doing what you want typographically, rules are meant to be broken, but in setting basic letter or book copy, legibility comes first.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

rules are meant to be broken

like those of conventional grammar, apparently.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

lauren otm.

+spacing complete sentences slightly further apart decreases legibility?

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

hey Lauren, edit all you want, just leave the typesetting to me.

"+spacing complete sentences slightly further apart decreases legibility? "

Yes it does. It creates a more intrusive stop at the end of the sentance. Sentances are supposed to flow together in a paragraph.

http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/typespacing/a/onetwospaces.htm

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

you're acting like you're judge, jury and executioner.

I will sentence you to death and use plenty of double spaces.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:32 (twenty-one years ago)

and to make things even worse...if you were setting type by hand, with metal or with software that allowes this much control, it's recommended that the space after a period be SMALLER then a normal space:

"The physical space after a "point" (period) should be thinner to compensate for the optical whiteness above the "point". Even spacing, even reading. "

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

do what you want, but bad typesetting is bad typesetting.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

and bad spelling is bad spelling/confusing words is confusing words.

: /

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:35 (twenty-one years ago)

When I send a cover letter to a potential employee, I have someone help me edit it and I spell-check it. Likewise, I recommend you remove the double spaces!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it'd help/hinder me, significantly.

: D

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 17:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I am totally in love with you, Dan Selzer. I shall copyedit and you shall set type and together we shall make beautiful copy together. . .

Now will someone please tell me if/how you can add a thin space on either side of an em dash in PageMaker? Our desktop publishing person thinks I am insane, but I want a tiny space on either side and not a whole space, which looks stupid and wrong. Much like double spaces after sentence-ending punctuation.

― quincie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

pagewhat?

Can't you kern? Our studio type style has us not placing any space around em dashes, which I think is the standard, then we often, depending on the font, add +20 kerns on each side in Quark.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Work at AMG for a year and half. I don't think I could put two spaces between sentences to save my life.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Should I know what a kern is? I'm an editor, for crying out loud! I only care about the words! Anyhow, I'm currently unhappy with the spaceless em dash in some documents I'm working on because if it comes after an "e" than the the em dash has no separation from that middle horizontal part of the "e" and looks wrong -- only after an "e", though, is it an issue. The person doing the layout simply can't understand why I care so much.

― quincie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Please do not give me shit for typos in the above post. It has been a long day.

― quincie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

STET, dude.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Main Entry: 2kern
Pronunciation: 'k&rn
Function: noun
Etymology: French carne corner, from French dialect, from Latin cardin-, cardo hinge
: a part of a typeset letter that projects beyond its side bearings

Huh? Explain me kern, someone!

― quincie, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

dan, get back here and explain. all i know is that when you're trying to edit directly into quark express, kerning will seriously fuck your shit up if you're not mindful of it.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I was definitely trained to do this when I learned typing. I seem to switch back and forward between single and double spacing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

http://dorothyfields.co.uk/images/jerome_kern.jpg

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Google 'kerning' rather than 'kern'

― Mooro (Mooro), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

The mere suggestion that we should use only one space after a period and not two as God intended makes me sad.

― Salmon Pink (Salmon Pink), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerning is simply adjusting the space between two letters. Not to be confused with Tracking, which is adjusting the spaces between ALL the letters, otherwise known as linespacing. Layout programs, Quark, Pagemaker, Indesign, Illustrator, etc, all have powerful controls for adjusting these spaces. For every ad I have to set with an em dash, I type like this–with no space(imagine that hyphen is twice as long). Then I go back, insert my curser before, hit a key command that says "add 10" twice, then do it again after the em-dash. Fun, I know.

Regarding the above definition, that's a bit outdated. But imagine this. All letters are carved into a square of lead. The letter T is on a square of lead like this [T] and the letter "o" is as well, like [o]. So if you want to type the word "To" it would physically look like this [T][o]. however, because there's so much space under the right part of the T, the proper way to set "To" is to have the "o" tuck into the T. So what would happen is the lead under the upper right arm of the T is removed. Thus "part of a typeset letter that projects beyond its side bearings".

Hope that helps.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

God being a secretary typing on a manual typewriter?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

stop telling us about manual typewriters, please.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:52 (twenty-one years ago)

You can do an em dash in html by typing & then # then 151 then ; (take out all the thens and spaces, obv.) I did it the other day on ILE, for fun.

Kerning in HTML, now there's an idea.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

See — it works.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Manual typewriters are the only places where double spaces are appropriate.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 20:03 (twenty-one years ago)

You people are mentalists!

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Speaking as a Mac artworker who has to waste many hours in Quark stripping out extraneous spaces, tabs and returns from Word docs supplied by corporate bozos who lack even the faintest knowledge of Word's formatting controls, may I propose Dan for Supreme Ruler of the Universe?

Oh, and to the knuckledraggers who move down a line by holding down the space bar until the cursor reaches the edge of the page, I'll just say, "SHIFT-RETURN, YOU MORONS." Thank you.

― chris j (chris j), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

So has no one looked this up in the APA or MLA style guides yet?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

So we're all agreed that it's okay to leave 2 spaces at the end of a sentence yes?

*ducks*

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

All of these posts for nothing!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

RJG: :-)

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

It's like eskimo's having 100 words for snow. We've got em-spaces, en-spaces etc.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS. It's the law.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

for future reference, if people really want to rile dan up then start threads about typesetting, italo-disco, or late 70s diy artpunk.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

From now on I am putting THREE spaces at the ends of my sentences.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Seriously, I think the essay submission guide at university said 2 or 3!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

it was otm. but, thinking, they also ask for double-spaced too, right?

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It was NOTOTM. Double spaced, yes.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I've no idea why this makes me so angry.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

or ex-girlfriends.

It's not the law curtis, you can put as many spaces as you like. It just won't read as nicely as a single space. Hundreds of years of typesetting have ended up with certain specific style. A technique that was created to deal with a specific technical shortcoming(manual typewriters) became a norm due to sloppiness.

If an essay submission guide says 2 or 3, then it was written with the understanding that people were typing their essays on manual typewriters, or was written by someone who doesn't know anything about typesetting and just copied what someone else said from a time when people used manual typewriters.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The number of spaces after a period should depend on the emotion you are trying to convey.                           That is all.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

the horror of double-spaced courier font with two spaces after each sentence is what bumped my final paper for my milton seminar into the acceptable length range.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't seen a paper or zine ask for 2 nor a journal or department for 1.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure you make your father, the english professor, proud!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, he thought it was funny.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

With Courier, presumably two spaces is correct.

I had no idea this was quite such a big issue when I asked the question.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

(which, incidentally, no one has answered!)

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

a lot of things are much bigger issues than one would think.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Excuse me for spending my years at university only using words for things I couldn't describe with numbers.

It appears APA says one space after sentence terminators, MLA says two but one is acceptable.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(which, incidentally, no one has answered!)

hypnotism?

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Thinking about it, our early essays might have been produced in Courier. In fact, yes, I think that was a requirement.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, my first essays at uni were handwritten, but that's another story.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/period.htm

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

if i'm going to be totally honest, i think courier with generous spacing pulled more than one essay through. i wasn't feeling particulary verbose about pamela, for instance.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I remember now - we were told to do two or three spaces after a full stop and one after a comma. Take that, Dan!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Two after a comma, I mean.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan Selzer is SOOOO OTM here. Also, unless you are English and therefore have an excuse, periods and commas go on the INSIDE of quotation marks. INSIDE, NOT OUTSIDE. And guess what else, Americans? Single quotes (like 'this') are also NOT ALLOWED unless it's within a quote. If you do that, you look like a fucking ponce! Thanks for taking this to heart the next time you hand in copy, CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO WRITE FOR ME THAT I KNOW WHO ARE READING THIS RIGHT NOW.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

(maybe this was only if you opted for three after a full stop).

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never liked the commas and full stops inside the quote thing. It seems illogical. But I am English, and have all sorts of excuses up my sleeve.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Show me where the MLA says 2 is preferred. If you write a paper, academic or otherwise, and insert 2 spaces after each period, if it ever got published, I guarantee someone like Jerry or myself will have to remove half of them.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

why do people hold onto the archaic notion that two spaces is right when IT FUCKING ISN'T and people who actually work with words for a living ARE SAYING IT'S NOT?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

it's dead easy to strip out though

find ". " replace ". "

done.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:17 (twenty-one years ago)

MWKOTFM

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:18 (twenty-one years ago)

no shit Sherlock, I've been doing it for a fucking year now. and I shouldn't have to. THAT'S THE POINT.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

It would seem that the MLA has changed its mind.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Matos, I don't think many people really are arguing against it very seriously - only to wind Dan up, I think.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you ever do 2.1 spacing, lauren?

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I am obviously a lot more sensitive on this subject than I should be, ahem. Carry on, then.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm on the phone with dan, and boy is he frothing at the mouth.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:20 (twenty-one years ago)

riled up? Like Matos, I deal with this every day. It may be a joke to you, but it's my fucking livelihood! I feed my kids with money I earn setting type. If you all stopped with the two spaces I could spend more time volunteering for charities and saving lives, instead I have to sit here all day deleting empty spaces!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

But the people doing it aren't professional writers, I don't think - so it won't hurt you! I do the odd thing and am trying to mend my ways, hence the thread.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm more amused at the fact that people are getting so wound up by people using two spaces.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, x-post

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

why do people hold onto the archaic notion that two spaces is right when IT FUCKING ISN'T

Blame the school teachers who taught us that it was right!

But since it's one less thing I have to worry about when writing, I'm all for it.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

'doing it' = 'arguing against it on this thread'

I don't mean people outside of ILE aren't making your life a pain - I sympathise!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd like to recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0881791326/qid=1081988725/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6898710-1853559

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, but I'm just saying, many years of thought about this says there is a right way to do it. It looks better and it reads better. Feel free to ignore that.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

no shit Sherlock, I've been doing it for a fucking year now. and I shouldn't have to. THAT'S THE POINT.
-- Matos W.K. (michaelangelomato...), April 15th, 2004.

it's a pretty lame point though. you're making hitting an extra button sound like having tantric sex with maggie thatcher in a water torture chamber.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Blame the school teachers who taught us that it was right!

For what it's worth I never had any sort of typing instruction in school. I learned on my own, and since all the books and magazines I'd read used one space, I took that to be the "correct" way to do it.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh - I see. Ken's the one Dan and Matos are left raging against.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Blame the school teachers who taught us that it was right!

And I do generally blame teachers for passing on a lot of bad information.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:31 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry nick.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

The last bastion of two-spaces-after-period abuse is in computer documentation. I once worked at a computer magazine and constantly dealt with article submissions that were essentially monospaced ReadMe files copy-pasted into a Microsoft Word document. It was easy enough to write a script that converts two spaces to one but it was still annoying.

I still lapse into double spaces often, but I'm also a product of mandatory typing classes in junior and high school and subsequent incorrect mandates from college professors. To this day, I still prefer monospace fonts for writing. The visual clutter in programs like Word is just too distracting and I'm happier with plain TextEdit. I just want to write, not "process words."

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I also highly recommend The Mac Is Not A Typewriter which isn't Mac-specific per se, but a great guide to basic typography for the PageMaker set.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

God, I'm 33 and I understood that the doublespace after full stop rule was a throwback to typewriter days, I though everyone knew that was an archaic idea, even IF you were taught it in school!

The only setting rules I had to follow was wide margins and doublespacing, but thats because I was studying professional writing & editing and was writing up short stories and learning how to edit and proofread, not doing uni-level essays.

Dan and Matos, you are gods among men, keep up the good fight.

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:37 (twenty-one years ago)

if someone spells the word shop as "shoppe" should I stop complaining and just get rid of the last two letters or should the people spelling it wrong get their shit correct?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Depends on the closeness of 'ye olde' to same.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

if someone spells the word shop as "shoppe" should I stop complaining and just get rid of the last two letters or should the people spelling it wrong get their shit correct?

"you're the editor, that's what you're paid to do" is NOT the correct answer. learn how to write, fuckos.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

<h3>F*ck you, Matos!:</h3>

Interestingly, [this style] is now preferred practice in Great Britain, though the older style (which became established for typographical reasons having to do with the aesthetics of comma and quotes in typeset text) is still accepted there. Hart's Rules and the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors call the [punctuation outside] style ‘new’ or ‘logical’ quoting. This returns British English to the style many other languages (including Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan, and German) have been using all along.

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

WHY CAN'T I USE H3 BUT I CAN USE this?

― Lil' Fancy Kpants (The K is Silent) (ex machina), Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:53 (twenty-one years ago)

ò.ô

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 14 April 2004 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

if someone spells the word shop as "shoppe" should I stop complaining and just get rid of the last two letters or should the people spelling it wrong get their shit correct?
"you're the editor, that's what you're paid to do" is NOT the correct answer. learn how to write, fuckoers.

-- stockholm cindy (disco_frie...), April 15th, 2004.

jesus do i have to do EVERYTHING here?!?!??!?! holy shit!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 April 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fucko

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 15 April 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if 'fuckling' is a word, and if it is a noun or a verb form.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 15 April 2004 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

It would be a noun or a gerund ("to fuckle"?).

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 15 April 2004 02:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Mm. (This all ties in with the long established character of Fuckles the Clown and His Dog Aborto, who WILL appear in some future story of mine...somehow.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 15 April 2004 02:39 (twenty-one years ago)

aborto fucklington

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 15 April 2004 02:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Slartibartfast is demure in comparison.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 15 April 2004 02:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I have just seen my friendly university designer who puts together my reports, books of abstracts etc. and the conversation went thusly:

Madchen: Tom, when I send you some text to go into a report or book or something, do you spend ages taking out the double space after full stops?
Tom: No, I add them where there's only a single space!
Madchen: Really? I thought you were only supposed to put a single space these days.
Tom: Who told you that? Tell them they are a fool.

― Madchen (Madchen), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

So my rule is: check with the guy who does the hard work and do what he wants you to.

― Madchen (Madchen), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Tell Tom he is a fool.

To be honest it is all a matter of convention, and academics may have their own crazy, archaic and arcane conventions. I doubt, however, that there is a professional magazine or book publisher in the world which continues to use double spaces after fullstops. I have been typesetting, artworking, editing and designing for 14 years and have never come across one.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I am more convinced, than ever.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Poor old Tom, the happy fool.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

He's a very nice fool who works very hard to tight deadlines which I often make even tighter ~~for fun~~

― Madchen (Madchen), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Have you shown him this and asked what he thinks?

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:37 (twenty-one years ago)

When I type in this box (or when I type an email in Yahoo), it's fixed-width Courier, is it not? And double space after the full stop seems to look better in here. But when it appears...up there, it's variable-width and it's not so good.

If anything can disabuse one of the crime of double-spacing it's subtitling - particularly Line21 closed-captioning where every character is precious. And yet...I still do it in this Courier environment.

I managed to stop myself putting a space before question- and exclamation-marks about four years ago. God knows what I was thinking there.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck, another career-threatening addiction to try and rid myself of. Brilliant.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 15 April 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

ILX strips out repeated spaces automatically, Mike. So I'm not sure what you mean.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I was guessing. Wrongly as it turned out.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Rules I learned in school that did not fly in my writerly workplace:

1. Double space at the end of sentences - Dan and Matos correct.
2. After a colon: Capitalising the first word after the colon as, unlike a semi-colon, there is the element of 'full stop' there. But that's whack.

Terms and conditions may vary. Most publications - especially in America - have a 'style sheet' for house style rules where these niggling issues are settled. The Guardian has a style sheet too, accessible to anyone using their site.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 15 April 2004 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if 'fuckling' is a word, and if it is a noun or a verb form.

It's a juvenile fuck.

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Thursday, 15 April 2004 11:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Just interesting, not too useful.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22%2Bwww.mla.org%22+spaces+after+sentence

Inproperly cited but:
As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise.
http://www.mla.org/publications/style/style_faq/style_faq3

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 15 April 2004 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

The MLA was "Founded in 1883 by teachers and scholars"

Not publishers, printers or typesetters. So it comes from academia. That is why they think it's okay to have 2 spaces. They are thinking about what is grammatically correct, not aesthetically correct.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 15 April 2004 18:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it really so bad to have two spaces there?  I mean, is it really?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 15 April 2004 18:32 (twenty-one years ago)

the colon rule at my workplace is that you capitalize the next clause only if it makes a complete sentence by itself--otherwise, lowercase. but obviously it varies.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 15 April 2004 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, dan, it is terrible.

when working with a single line or two a double space near the end can cause a "floating away" look to the beginning of your next sentence. in extreme cases making it look like the words my not even be part of your paragraph.

when dealing with large paragraphs a gap of two spacing can cause "white blocks" to appear and fuck with the overall colour of a large block of copy.

― dyson (dyson), Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

revive per selzer's request.

― stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 05:55 (twenty years ago)

My italic font made JBR's quote of "learn how to write, fuckoers" look like "fuckateers." I have now made it my goal this week to use the word "fuckateer" at least once per day.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:04 (twenty years ago)

Go to a bookstore. Look at all the books. None of them have 2 spaces after the periods.
Go to any graphic design or advertising agency that sets type. None of them use 2 spaces after the periods.
Ask anyone who is a professional typsetter, who's spent years studying typography, and none of them use 2 spaces after periods.

Who uses 2 spaces after periods? People who were taught typing in middle school by teachers who learned typing from manuals created for secretaries using manual typewriters during the 70s.

this is SO otm. as i said upthread, i never had any formal typing instruction, and i didn't even know about the two-spaces rule until well after i learned to type on my own. i took what was in professionally typeset books and magazines to be correct. glad i did!

― stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:05 (twenty years ago)

yeah its very strange. basically it took matos yelling at me about it one time to even look at a magazine or book and realize. its strange what school tries to pass of as true which has no analog in the real world.

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:06 (twenty years ago)

mmhmm.

― stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:09 (twenty years ago)

it's a wonder you can think at all

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:09 (twenty years ago)

I was really angry back then, but hey--it worked.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:11 (twenty years ago)

(in general, not at strongo specifically, obv.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:11 (twenty years ago)

What I said upthread. I once got marked off on a high school paper for using one space after a period.

I still have the manual typewriter and it works great. It's from the 1940s and would be at home as a prop in the movie of Naked Lunch

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:12 (twenty years ago)

My work forces me to do the two space thing. They are hatemongers.

― jeffrey (johnson), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:18 (twenty years ago)

It's shaped like a gigantic freaky insect?

xpost

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:18 (twenty years ago)

jeffrey, do you work for the Flat Earth Society?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:22 (twenty years ago)

he works for the koreshans.

― stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 06:43 (twenty years ago)

In the end, it was surprisingly easy to stop doing this.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 09:00 (twenty years ago)

I haven't had any trouble, at all, continuing to do this

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 09:06 (twenty years ago)

2 spaces = wrongness. they do it at work, for some reason, but it hasn't become habit.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 09:08 (twenty years ago)

Yes, update. I have managed to accomplish this without any trub. See I just did twice!

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

thirteen years pass...

The whistleblower uses two spaces after a period cc @fmanjoo
— Julia Turner (@juliaturner) September 26, 2019

― mookieproof, Thursday, 26 September 2019 17:08 (six years ago)

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