Who the hell goes to Air Shows?

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040429/capt.ny18104291818.air_show_robot_ny181.jpg

A pro wrestling tournament
a NASCAR event
A monster truck show
Dirt bike races

These are just a hunch.

I have.

Not all that different from record collectors really.

Go back and hide under your desks.

Drop a rare Duophonic 7" (or whatever WFMU people would kill for these days) on the ground there and find out

Wouldn't really consider doing it now. Can you imagine the amount of gas it would take to put one of those things on?

Kind of just a promo for the fighting forces, a loss leader if you will.

Boy loves air shows, but then he's really a big geek. He just emailed me some "Laguardia Departure Route Description" pdf today, which is not really as crazy as the fact that I now think it's a perfectly normal thing to receive in email. heh.

heh. then again, i'm the only person here with an aerospace degree.

http://80music.about.com/library/artist/images/berserk.jpg

At night we went down to the airstrip and played on top of the planes. We managed to get an Apache copter's blades going pretty fast just with some elbow grease, and we held an informal sprinting competition in the light of the moon.,

The second day of the show it rained, so they brought in... MONSTER TRUCKS!

Doesn't that make them... the 3rd best attended?

I'm pretty sure I went to an airshow when I was a kid. However, it could just have been my grandad driving us down to Heathrow.

Seriously though, I really like seeing biplanes.

http://homepage.mac.com/eric.moore/pics/etc/tbird.jpg

After the two pilots landed, the one who was collided with went over & punched the other one. Then they had a fag. Russians!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-130-jato.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-130.htm

My family used to go mining for gems. This was our idea of a vacation. It was actually kind of fun to hunt around in the quarries. Dirt > video games.

http://www.soulofamerica.com/images/photosca/oakland2/ParamountTheatremarquee.jpg

-- adam (hexenductio...), May 1st, 2004. (later)

(a) Up yours
(b) What exactly is "hoity-toity" about recognizing stupidity when I see it?

The folks you might see at an air show you might also see at:
A pro wrestling tournament
a NASCAR event
A monster truck show
Dirt bike races

These are just a hunch.

-- jim wentworth (wenc...) (webmail), April 30th, 2004 8:04 PM. (wench) (later) (link)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly.......in other words......IDIOTS!l
-- Alex in NYC (vassife...) (webmail), April 30th, 2004 8:08 PM. (vassifer) (later) (link)

i think you were sort of kidding, or maybe parodying yourself a bit. i hope so.

On a more serious note, my disdain for Air Shows has less to do with class (as is seemingly being suggested) and more to do with common sense (or lack thereof).

That said, I do find fans of pro-wrestling, Monster Trucks and Nascar to be complete idiots. But that's a separate issue from Air Shows.

yeah, i know, i was making a really droll joke

I think the class issue was raised when you endorsed another post comparing air shows to events, not all of which are risky in nature (professional wrestling?). People who fail to perceive the risk element that you do are going to look for another explanation. Do you have any hard data about the risk of attending an air show (and btw "air shows" do not always involve actual flight displays, and if they do, they don't necessarily involve fighter jets) or even a NASCAR event vis-a-vis, for instance, the risks of commercial air travel, highway automobile driving, crossing Canal Street against the light, regular cigarette smoking, etc?

Do you have any hard data about the risk of attending an air show

How's this?

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/bcalz/f16b.jpg

The UK has always had stringent regulations regarding airshow safety: they have become progressively tighter since the horrific Frecce Tricolori crash at Ramstein in 1998. In the last year rising insurance premiums have forced organisers to introduce rules requiring displaying aircraft to operate at greater heights & distances from the crowd.

I can think of a great deal of riskier entertainment events or pastimes to be involved in than attending airshows.

Personally, I don't. But I got a leather jacket.

i'm sorry, but it was deliciously obvious.

You've got a real hang-up about that leather jacket. And since when is sneering associated with any specific rank of "culture".

Air shows are stupid. Nascar is stupid. Pro-Wrestling is stupid. Insane Clown Posse is stupid. I also suggest that the recognition of the above as stupid has absolutely nothing to do with what strata of culture or class one happens to reside in.

Get over it.

You know I'm right in this instance, though.

This is interesting because lately I've been trying to AVOID this -- more out of a sense of 'I already have enough stuff I obsess over, therefore adding to it would be an incredible time-sucker.'

Bit of a sweeping condemnation there, NA. We've never met. I certainly don't presume to know you from a garden variety slug.

Look, I'm not up in arms enough about this particular issue to get all that much more into it. Fine, maybe I'm a culture snob. The whole reason I started this thread was to ask a legitimate question (having just heard about yet another air show disaster). I'm sure that at ninety-nine out of a hundred air shows, nothing tragic happens, but when one does, it's pretty damn catastrophic. I just don't understand them, that's all.

I wasn't the first to equate them with Nascar and Moster Trucks and Pro-Wrestling, which is basically a different issue (your chance of dying horribly at a Pro-Wrestling event is rather slim). But, that said, there is probably a similar audience for these things. In any event, personally speaking, I certainly do find Nascar and Monster Truck Rallies and Professional Wrestling all to be indefensibly stupid. If that makes me a culture snob (in a leather jacket no less), then so be it. When was the last Nascar meet you went to, NA?

But I'm sure none of this matters because I can watch pro wrestling, boxing, automobile racing in virtually any form, et al, which makes me a member of the dirty, unwashed masses that bands like Motorhead or Killing Joke could never possibly accept at their concerts.

(also: are the above events stupid for the people, or are the people stupid for attendance? and in any case, what the hell do the people interested have to do with the event itself?)

Oh yawn. Once again the thinly-veiled suggestion that leather jackets and/or the appreciation of the music of Killing Joke and Motorhead (the respective audiences of each, by the way, are not necessarily interchangeable) is a signifier of slackjawed "low culture" is just as much of a sweeping, judgemental generalization as me suggesting that everyone who attends a Nascar Meet is an idiotic asshole, so serve thyself up a big steaming cup of hypocrisy and gulp it on down.

I disagree. Rock music brings words along with it, in most cases. Words can bring ideas, in many cases.

Very true.

I have never been to a NASCAR meet, but I also don't go around calling the people who have "stupid."

How very admirably egalitarian of you.

Don't act like you can't see the appeal of wrestling/NASCAR/air shows, it's the exact same appeal of going to a loud rock concert: a visceral, exciting experience. It's no less meaningful or intelligent.

Here, I have to differ with you. The appreciation of music applies to an entirely different part of the brain/sensibility than watching a pair of muscle-bound goons in masks roll around on a canvas mat together, pretending to maim each other (much less watching a bunch of cars drive around in circles). Air Shows, once again, are sort've a different matter. I completely understand being fascinated with aeronautics, but my assertion that Air Shows are "stupid" (an overrused word, and I'm completely guilty of overusing it) has more to do with the fact that seemingly the only press they get is when something catastrophic happens at them....begging my question: what is really the appeal of them? I do agree, however, that the usual patrons of Air Shows are in all likelihood the same folks who get really into waving flags and blindly supporting the foreign policy of our current administration. Here's where I may be completely mistaken, but I never claimed to be infallible.

Also admittedly I don't know you personally, but whether you're aware of it or not, your ILX persona is based on you splitting people into two groups: people who like the same things as you and people who are idiots.

Not true, and you're only suggesting as much to buffer your own argument. It's easier to turn me into a two-dimensional cartoon charcter, isn't it.

Saying things like "Isn't plunging oneself into a subculture basically the same thing as 'slumming'?" doesn't really help the matter either.

That particular statement was purely the act of playing the devil's advocate.

This tendency to be so completely absolutist about everything (eg, everyone who goes to air shows is stupid) makes it very difficult to take anything you say seriously.
I don't think I am completely absolutist about everything. This may sound a bit disengenous coming from me, but I think you really need to relax. Maybe get outside and get some fresh air.

no, this is a canard.

http://www.csdm.qc.ca/stejarc/dictionnaire/imagesdicoc/canard.jpg

Perhaps that's how this happened.

http://www.monstertrucks-uk.com/springfield/583.jpg

A mallard has appeared on the thread -> my work is done.

Oh, I have many stupid secrets, although having a a few inches taken off my head by way of a burning, mangled fuselage ain't one of'em.

The difference is that I like Motorhead, but can accept that going to see Motorhead is not on the same level as visiting the Met. Idiots go see Motorhead. Look around at the show. Its 50 year old mullets, who just happen to be the same people at NASCAR events and so on. The fact that they are there does not bother me, because they are not what I paid money to see. I came to see Motorhead. And Motorhead is a very "stupid" visceral experience that is damn well worth the price of admission.

>>Here, I have to differ with you. The appreciation of music applies to an entirely different part of the brain/sensibility than watching a pair of muscle-bound goons in masks roll around on a canvas mat together, pretending to maim each other (much less watching a bunch of cars drive around in circles). <<

Explain Gwar.

I'd also like to state that pro wrestling at its highest level (not WWE schlock, but more the puro of Japan) is just as much a art form as acting or what have you.

>>I completely understand being fascinated with aeronautics, but my assertion that Air Shows are "stupid" (an overrused word, and I'm completely guilty of overusing it) has more to do with the fact that seemingly the only press they get is when something catastrophic happens at them....begging my question: what is really the appeal of them?<<

People like looking at planes. Apparently, that would be the appeal.

Hey, I hear about people breaking arms and all sorts of limbs when they see Slayer. Why the hell should I go see them? (rhetorical question)

>>I do agree, however, that the usual patrons of Air Shows are in all likelihood the same folks who get really into waving flags and blindly supporting the foreign policy of our current administration. Here's where I may be completely mistaken, but I never claimed to be infallible.<<

Even if you aren't mistaken, what difference does it make? You judge art or performance purely on the basis of the audience being played to?

This should never be attempted. By anyone.

you know, the only time i hear about rock shows on the news is when there's a riot or some girls get raped. what is really the appeal of them?
the snobbish assumption of this thread is that an event that engages the artistic side of the brain (and arguing that a rock concert falls into this category is anything but inarguable) is somehow bette/more worthwhile than something that (in the eyes of the snob) doesn't.

but what about playing rock music from within a monster truck? surely this is the desired compromise.

alex why don't you just admit that you find air shows boring and that other people do not? would that be some terrible sacrifice for you?

Whatever, people....go enjoy your air shows. May you not be rained on by burning, twisted metal.

Yeah, but that's not the stuff that was alluded to.

Now who is making the sweeping absolutist statement? I don't judge art/performance purely on the basis of its audience, but you must admit that it is stil part of the equation.

why even bother making these kinds of judgements at all?

http://pcwww.liv.ac.uk/eweb/fst/images/typhoon_01.jpg

Sadly these are but geese:

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow03/shoreham/geese.jpg

FIGURE-8 SCHOOL BUS RACES

i can be, but i know when to admit that i'm making a personal judgement out of ignorance

-- hstencil (hstenci...), May 3rd, 2004. (later)

Speaking on behalf of Killing Joke and their fans, we'd rather you went to an air show too.

I've read evidence to suggest otherwise, but whatever.

http://www.dvdreview.com/fullreviews/Images/Plan9FromOuterSpace/Plan9FromOuter6.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/17/nevada.plane.crash/

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/09/18/alg_reno_air_show_crash.jpg

might as well have fired a rocket at the box seats

whoops

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/09/18/alg_reno_air_show_crash.jpg

Jesus.

are there air show truthers?

http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/uploads/image/TimObrien%20(2).jpg

man, i hate air shows. i was at one once (who goes to air shows: teenage schlump in a small town) &, all while wondering why they were tempting fate so much, watched a plane fall into the sea. there was a display thing over my house a couple of weeks ago (just before a pilot died in a similar thing at another event) & i had to leave in case they malfunctioned and crashed at me.

also i know it was re: a mis-coded link but can we just quote-out-of-context moonship's post of:

whoops

[flaming_aircraft_inferno.jpg]

yeah if it wasn't obvious the "whoops" was in reference to the img tags

Some detailed info on elevator flutter, the dynamic forces involved, and previous incidents with race-modified P-51s (Flying magazine link. Comments amazingly non-stupid)

In short... The planes telemetry and onboard camera data were recovered. The plane was pulling a 11g climb so it's probable that the pilot was unconscious. The wobble at the top may have resulted from a power loss due to a fuel interruption - which comes back on full bore after the nose over.

you can tell from the sound in the videos that its going to be bad

Here's the full two hour NTSB final presentation on the Reno crash. Fascinating to watch the whole forensic run-down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMmhOkXQB0s

TL;DR version: no evidence the owner completed FAA-recommended flight testing of all modifications. Trim-tab lock nuts had not been replaced for at least 26 years and the attachment screws showed 80% damage from accumulated metal fatigue.

Second air-show crash in the UK this summer. The first just killed the pilot, this time the pilot escaped but has killed at least seven people, with the death toll expected to rise. Seems to have crashed into road traffic attempting a loop.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34029764

Easy to say in retrospect but idk if letting people fly planes upside down near busy roads should be allowed.

if it was

obv pilot/mechanical/planning error needs ascertaining but ffs

it would do a disservice to all the brave men and women who died at air shows so that people today can get killed driving near an air show

before u attempt a circular motion like that I'm going to move further away thks

Police have revised the death toll to "up to twenty".

I have a couple of friends who were there and sustained minor injuries. Sounds fucking terrifying.

These (as well as the "inspirational" fly-bys) are the most boomer/faded-glory things ever.

Annual reminder that US Airforce on 9/11 ($800B, $1.3T in 2023) was completely impotent on 9/11.

Also that 1 of 2 Stealth Black Hawks ($40M) crashed during the OBL raid because it landed on... a 12 foot retaining wall.

there is nothing special forces likes doing more than crashing helicopters

Hey it's me with my annual reminder to tell you that air shows are the most "I peaked in high school" boomer shit ever.

What would it take to ban these things forever?

Support The no MAS Project

https://www.veteransforpeace.org/take-action/climatecrisis/no-mas

look I admit I loved Moon Safari in high school and I still do, maybe its lame but I think a total ban is a step too far

fighter jets starting up again of San Francisco Bay

My father was an aircraft mechanic for the air force and he did take us to a couple air shows in the 80’s. I remember it being hot and loud but had fun as a 10 year old.

The UK crash mentioned above lead me to reading about the 1952 Farnborough Airshow crash, which killed 29 people and injured 60:

Following the accident the air display programme continued once the debris was cleared from the runway, with Neville Duke exhibiting the prototype Hawker Hunter and taking it supersonic over the show later that day.[10]

Just had a F-18 or whatever roar over my house in Oakland, I could see it while I was washing lettuce

A thrilling sound, except when you consider what that sounds represents in Gaza, Beirut, or Ukraine

Yeeeeeah I was living near a rural airport/Natl Guard base that hosts an airshow every year, and the Blue Angels or whatever would start flying over a day or two ahead of time, and then constantly during the shows. I never stopped thinking "This is the last sound Iraqi children hear," honestly. That might not even be true given the introduction of drones and how death is dealt to sleeping families and school buses of children in modern times, but I still thought it.

Praise buddha/allah! Bring in the fog~!~

Admiral Cloudberg writes some of the best, detailed reports on aviation accidents - the new one on the B-17/P-63 collision in Dallas a couple years back is anger-inducing enough that it's time to park the vintage stuff in the hangar for good.
https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/passing-the-buck-the-story-of-the-2022-wings-over-dallas-air-show-collision-9bbe5947297b